Folks. What if I told you that, instead of what I am saying now, I could be talking about your business if you're in advertiser or a marketer, and you want me to do the talking for you visit a cast self service, add platform where any business can browse and book pod castors like me to tell your story in a way audiences trust. Sixty two percent of listeners make purchase after hearing a host like me, read and add head over to go, not a cast dotcom, slash sponsorships to launch your campaign. That's go daddy! Cast dot com, swash sponsorships this all right, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck bodies, what the fuck next what's happening? A mark marin. This is my pod gas- welcome to it, How is everybody? How are things going at home, our things going at What's going on with your parents? What is

happening with your kids. God, the options are infinite. How's. Your partner how's how's that guy, who lives down the street? What about that? Guy? walk and by your house? Maybe you should ask: what's up who knows wandering around new york. That's what I've been doing. A lot of walking out lot of trying to find vague in food eating things have changed since I've. coming here over the years. It's odd being vague in person, but I'm not missing, and I would really stay across the street from catches and I think about it, and nothing happened so I guess that's a good sign levied. Let me do business up front, first of all, on the show today, Jesse David foxes here he's the senior editor at noon: magazines vulture site and since when, two thousand and twelve he's been covering comedy for vulture. I've talked to him many times for print interview,

and I ve been on his podcast a couple of times. It's called good one, a podcast about jokes. He wrote the new book comedy book, how comedy conquered culture and the magic that makes it work read the whole thing. I rather think is about my business. It's like reading the quickness but sometimes I read the whole book. I don't know. I say that like I need to be proud, but I've been reading a lot more lately, which is good I dont think I ever. I think the power with reading, and me is when I say down to read. I have to actually think it. people I know who read aloud and just think about them, saying all right. I'm going to read, a couple hours, because for me, sit down and do anything for a couple hours, I got a million other things that need to be done, then, aren't even major small things, things we are an urgent like cooking eating, fixing the refrigerator they're. Just I dont a lot the time, and, as I get older, I guess maybe it's just because its end,

viable, unlike just shut up and sit down and get into it? Read the book dummy I dunno, what the hell my brains do, and I dunno what I think. I'm doing. I don't think I'm wasting time, but I don't have a lot to show for myself. I have this what I'm saying right now to show for myself, but the other before hours and change at an up, not was a lot comedy sure, but what about that, though? Those chunks of free time I usually frame it around homework like things I need to do. I don't much. I do for enjoyment This isn't your problem, so listen los angeles people, I'm dying, do typewriter on December first thirteenth in twenty eighth, the illusion theatre on December sixth, fifteenth and twenty seven. And largo. On december, twelve in january, ninth venom in san diego at the absurd retorted north bark on saturday JANET Twenty seventh for two shows san francisco at the key stroke, theatre on Saturday February. Third, I will be hosting a screening of a beautiful print

mccabe missus Miller, at the roxy theatre on february, worth thing go to a rocky dot com. I'm just tell you that, as many of you know, it's probably among my favorite movies in the top five and I have been trying to understand it on a deeper deeper level throughout my entire adult life and my buddy your economy is. A film archives has his own print and he's been asking me to come to his house to watch it which seems weird, but probably fine, but now it's just worked out. He was in the bay area and he got the roxy on board and we're going to show this beautiful print. Of that movie and I'm going to say a few words not like it's dead, like it's alive, it's alive. import remained at the state theatre on thursday march, seventh medford massachusetts outside Boston, at the chevalier theatre on Friday march. Eighth problem. Throat, island at the strand, theatre, yeah,

On saturday march, ninth tarrytown new york at the Tarrytown music on Sunday march, tenth and georgia? I met the bucket on Friday march twenty second gotta deputy of dot com slashed tour for tickets. And also all be adding dates here and there as well I have towards whatever I'm going to do with this hour. I know some people are like why not this town? Why not here? Why didn't she come back here? Will all add more dates after this run as we head towards the fall? and I need to polish it up in and get out to those other market. So don't freak like I'm never coming to your town. Again, here's some big news Christmas is coming and there are new brian jones cab mugs available to purchase starting today at noon eastern these the handmade mugs. You get if your guest on w tee there are who versions available for the holidays, both on the original art we use, the early days of wmd F again. These are available today,

starting at noon. Eastern w t have mugs dot seo w you have mugs don t, always gotta. Is there dedicated website I want design. These original ones. It made me very excited when brine Jones was an early fan of the show, and we came up with the idea to provide some high. In for the guests, and he made these very specific mugs, with the original cats on it and this one. The new version of the original design issue, has the new cats. and the cat angels the original crew of three the new crew, a three and the old crew, a three and my face, people, have these mugs I guide I hear from when the only things that to some of the celebrities, I've talked to reflect Even it's like. I love that mug. What The conversation don't remember it at all the money great. I use it every day. Ok,

Adam walkin around beneath some good good places. guess of your new york. There is someone tell me under this place down on, whereas it like much street somewhere Louise wild ginger, it's like, Do I get almost like a tie, vague in place? That's just fucking amazing I ate their. I it's on broome street here in new york city, but Where else I go, we want to brendan an eye. Is we're thing about when you eat vague and is that damn! You place. Why not eat their several times? Spicy moon was very good sash one big in place, butchers, daughter, very good, so I don't know. I am still pretty excited about eating this way and I'm not missed anything. I might miss the russian daughters a little bit But, aside from that, I saw a few movies. While I was here, I went to see the hold overs, which was pretty good

I went to see. Oh man, we went to her friends and family screening of the color purple musical goes on to the director that was spectacular, just crying like an idiot when I watch musicals I should be ashamed anymore I've earned that haven't. I, and I also watched screener of this movie memory with peter sars garden jessica chastising. That was done. stating lee beautiful and I have not seen a film like that- your kind of ride, this edge of complete. Agnes and also beauty and love, was spectacular and I've done some reading. That's what I'm doing! I'm wandering around new york taking it in again I walk this hole in the ground that familiar to me, I, as on second avenue, there's this giant Simon struck, since I did just whatsoever

after they took the building away just hole in the ground. I realized, oh, my god that was it church tat. Was it second and second, we we want the places I got sober. It was very important in my early sobriety, the second and second meeting now the hole in the ground, and I'm hoping that doesn't mean anything Gabby careful with my brain, not to a to read in two events, as being symbolic or representing something I dont quite understand. I got a real in the mystical, sometimes because the other, Part of the brain can trust it cannot trust it so anyway. Let me talk a little bit about this conversation. You're about to hear Jesse david file is a guy that I've known for a long time he's written about the pie gaseous britain. About me, I've talked to a many times on different the print infers, podcast and other things, as I said before, but really trying to do this is this. The case

couple of books, it I've read recently cliffs book, outrageous and also Jesse's book comedy book how comedy cocker, culture and and the magic that makes it work are really kind of. in engaging entertaining texts that are documenting comedy as in a knot, in a critical way and in a cultural commentator, tat boy, but also in in work away. These are in a lot of weight function as as histories she's book of modern comedy and an cliffs book about arc of controversy in comedy. I'm just bring that up, because I've read these to kind of back to back, but- book really deals with modern comedy not going back. That far, sort of like dealing with some of my generation, but mostly the generation after me, and also transition that comedy made with social media platforms forms and with us an outward sketch aegis brings it all in m, really kind of focuses in a fairly

actual way about the impact, and you know unfolding, of modern comedy in all these different. areas, and what was interesting to me, is like I have definite opinions about the impact of a certain generation of comics after me that you know we're not we're not contentious about it, but but I I was sort of came around his point of view and then His book goes all the way through Two generations down from me is the generation after me, then there's another one in terms of these waves of comedy and I'm partly out of the loop. So this is one of those conversations where I kind of realise like all right, dude you, you're not really on the pulse. You do so these people around, but in terms of the act kind of ongoing mama aunt em up comedy talent is something quite removed from

and and it's a weird thing to Admit- and I've known it for a few years now that that, like I dunno who the fuck is doing, what any more and that's just by virtue of age and because my life is full and I my world and I do what I do, but I'm not I'm not in the race anymore, and I'm not seeing it necessarily is a competition by their all. his turn over there are new generations. Are our new talent sometimes I'll see them on? Like I didn't know anything about, You know the the world of the new algae bt, q comics, the sketch com. were boeing Yang, comes from talks, Caper lad to I've talked to buy it's just above burnham, social media. Eight, there just a world of it that heap in this context that I an old guy was now necessarily quite hip to so it's it's an engaged conversation obviously have some dugan opinions. certain things, but also its when those conversations rhyme learning things about the business I'm in animals.

Being a bit of a stubborn old man? Again is called comedy book how comedy conquered culture and the magic that makes it work now available wherever you get books- and this is me and the author of that book just he David Fox, getting into it back. There garage in los angeles. People, a new era of aging, is emerging led by soul, soldiers, cellular nutrition. They believe you can transform the way you age, cell, myself, with the power of cellular nutrition, as we age, our sell your functions decline. Ordinary supplement, such multi vitamins and minerals may not be enough to combat these age related declines sagar. Cellular nutrition is formulated with targeted cellular treatments that work with your body's natural processes deep inside yourselves, our fight cellular decline and promote cell health across three benefit era.

His cellular energy support. So energy, repair and vitality, cellular strength and renewal supports muscle strength, and so you will protect supports anti. accident production to help protect cells, so we're gonna, sell. Your nutrition is here to help you own your healthy aging narrative visit cellular nutrition. That's all guard dot com to learn more soul. cellular nutrition, they goes deep these payments. and evaluate benefiting demonstration. Is products not intended to diagnose, treat cure or prevent any disease. The I read the whole book So I really appreciate it When I was doing that more people than I expected. Oh yeah, like like if you need to hook who are interviewing you in general? Well, I think both I think, should have been out. It's been out for about a week.

What a lesson a week. But I've had people who are senators said Harry either planning on just reading the beginning and then saying there the whole thing or can we and reading the sections that array by them and then being I can go over the whole book, oh yeah, but I expect comedian said ouch comedians would that be valued having bad you sally. which comedians while the book has only been out recently, so I think it's their excuse. I I was talking to John early yesterday who genre okay, yeah, and I write about him, yeah and caper land, and he he read the part any really appreciated, and then he said, he's excited to go back to the beginning and read the recipe What is more interesting about people are just even getting into the book because, like ike embark on this saying- and you know, I'm kind of a through line in their area, I feel there on some level. Our conversations and this show has contextual eyes, a lot of stuff for you shoot

I imagine that you wouldn't have read denial of death it wasn't. How are they show haven't? I talked about it forever. I think it is that yeah is probably true. I dunno if it was on my radar, but now that I'm trying to remember if I had any source material for that other than you talking about it all the time, but it is. That is why, like it is a very marc, marion book beyond the fact that you're in it a lot and the devotee F, is in it a lot in your those early episodes shaped my interest and a lot of my career, when yeah yeah, that denial death in them Specter of that book is also future out. The entire bucky, though only mention at once Why mean it's one, those it's? Why always talked about it in terms of framing That idea, transference onto whatever he has very helpful, the somehow when you're specially, when you lack believe yes and you, could you brave understanding, yeah,

also the idea of the craving of belief trying to find things transfer meaning, I think, is a really big thing for me- nay. I try to explore and I think part of what this book is is about. egg, we're in a time post. Religion for a lot of people young, and very not post revision for others. Ps, if you don't call it religion, but there is a search for something to replace it an end, there's lots of things that have been replacing it good and bad, and I think a lot of you ball comedy and comedians as tellers information and organizers of the world have been a source of both comfort and like perspective. So I that is in it as well, which is like structure the internet. I think the if have is on the increase with people like. I need something to hold onto need someone to trust and

media for better or for worse it become those people the I don't like you know. I think that with an evolution of things- or I dont think that that was always the way it was here, and I think that, because I just cliff nest. Rough book outrage and I read them back to back. There is some cross over, but he's doing a deeper dive into the history of controversy. Now seems that and I'm not gonna lose a thread, but it seems you know your book is- is really about how culture in our committee impacts culture. Now here you go back a bit, but it's really we're talkin. Alas, twenty what twenty twenty five save? Ninety ninety, on ice age, the organ, partly millennials grew up and also post the comedy boom of of the are the eighty so like when comedy, because you can see just a clear directory of where comedy evolved and also internet, is in the ninety. So I think it's really bad like what we think of his look. Modern culture I like that thread the euro, you talk about it. I don't know that, for emma my

understanding the united I'm not in can in contention you on many points in this. I think it elucidated something okay for me in a way, but I mean this: is my life like you're you're on the outside yeah I've been doing comedy professionally since nineteen eighty eight, so I started comedy at the end of the boom and we always heard it. It was as mythological time where you know you'd go to clubs, then it became sort of a joke where the car, the the club owner, be like I dunno, what's going out, was packed last week and how long ago was that week? You know when it was packed. But the idea that the comedy replaces religion- I don't know. I don't know that I already I jive with that. But I think the idea that your comedians our work to do so now report, something or or or tell the truth. I think that is true, culturally I don't think that was always the case. I think it somehow or another.

the idea of Lenny bruce in the idea of george carbon in the idea of comedy at that moment. That through line and- and I can, I think, prior as well- which everybody tracks here, you know you go from Lenny did to richard and george and they go there directions with it. But I think that that whole idea of comedies comedian philosophers? In truth, the towers was really hijacked by these comics that in EU talk about later in the book who have tribalism comedy- but I think there is a difference between that truth. and reporting- which I think you you go to great lengths to I wish the daily show is a shift, and how a certain age group got their information, perry, yeah yeah. I think it's partly as they say it's, not like a came out of nowhere into, as there were people looking for places too to consume news that they trusted and it ended in, is partly that people started trusting mainframe.

Is less and less over the last forty years as well right. The part of this shift is because Our trust in institutions has decreased significantly. So then people just looking for things and then comedians v Johnson in the daily show was given operates. Do this thing and to johns credit, they figured out a way of providing people information that worked really well right, but a lot of those kids like they didn't want to watch the news. The news was boring exactly he wasn't even in this evolving distrust of the news they just didn't give me a year. So I think, if anything, he he elevated the the formation in conversation, yarn and social Engagement with You know what is happening in the world for a generation that might not have given as yet and I he's good at it, and they had a large research staff. So there there things behind a. He also was active in discrediting plots news, merrily, but a lot of cable news in general terms and the nature of how the discourse of all day right like if you look to him when he was on crossfire just the fact,

There are moment the area where he's he's with you. unless he leave that acting like hear them journalistic integrity. Now he also as a comedian self deprecate any time to try to push back on his journalists integrity by being like I'm. Just amr a crank actors, I dont Ahmad, but clearly either. If, if even didn't want to come back to it here shaped, how a lot of people started work, to consume the news and then also for people younger They didn't note a time where this didn't exist so now when they grow up people. Maybe ten years younger than I fifteen years ago, and I can meetings are just people that provide to context or in for asian about the news, and that is just a fact. They don't know that was ever that it was like that. Like they don't know more solid, and they don't know that between mort and John Stewart there was a gap of just like people directly reading from a newspaper and responding, yeah, but I mean I don't know that's a great thing over and over again- and you know- and oddly you know Joe rogan uses that same dismissal.

Now you know, but I got it back to the the sort of yeah, why you did this year? I mean, I know your fan, but I mean you ve got me quoting there about, and I think This is more so whether people know it or not- and I think a lot of stuff that you're doing a visit and intellectual approach to this. Nothing I mean you, your sourcing, it with a lot of philosophers, cultural critics, poets- I mean, you know you, you started, did your homework to find context for you south, so you could. You could write this ambitious yoke like I don't I don't know really it's like reading, I mean there's joke Isn't it no? No, but I mean I'm not this missing the book value as you set out to do. The other thing I wanted to do an ambitious book. I wanted to say at the part of it was not only do they want to write ambitious book, because if I'm gonna write a book and myself be ambitious, but also I wanted to use suggests that com he could have an ambitious book about it right. I felt like

The levant yeah steadily primarily area, but where little sketch little sketch guild tabled. I lay night in terms of John Stuart and really stuff that comes out of stand up, arrogance, and sketch. Out of that, would include the ba alive and live comedy. The live, comedy arts and then, but not comedy in general. We need you, do source thinkers who deal with the broad idea. Of what humor. Yes, yes- and I try to do you know it all- it all relates, but I do think I often I focused on standard because stanhope asserted the purest of a lot of the sort. Of course genes are at its most distilled withstand up, because it is just a person in an audience and ended in so much as the book is about both media to an audiences and how audiences interact it is it. I felt useful to sort of focus on that right so when you, when you're deciding to do this, I mean you know what she's dead, in you. I imagine when you start first are writing about comedy and what,

thought comedy was that that kind of changed over time? Yes right and it seems like that at the point where you needed to be a kind of ground, your emotional reaction comedy the most desperately was it was after your brother past one year and which was tragic and in an happen quickly. and your then all of a sudden. You know you need it right here and then that must have changed your entire outlook on on how much you had done. What year was that that was, as Japan was twenty two twenty nineteen sorry buddy. Thank you appreciate its terrible thing. But you know I imagine that deepened. Your your need to have an understanding, because when you started this, when you had the idea of writing about comedy, you were just, like our common here. Oh yeah. I want to convey that love and I wanted to show people destroy the craft of how

comedians work and is an interesting. We haven't really seen that in the same way or as as deeply and and and approve gaining comedians as artist. Just because I like doing I found it interesting and ate and as a journalist, I felt like its useful to convey what I find interesting to people, but I do think you know that experience yo traumatic experiences like that, are what you, back at your life and how you experience of a variety of things and also my brother passed away and it was unexpected and hard and just was not getting over it and and and I to comes your on parliament that longer area I mean I ended at, and I e in the what happened right afterwards rates are then that's it, and now I wrote and there's a sort of death or around you that's why the maria it said that IRAN, the book. I can't talk about our crying. It's it's about her

how about her Ma James, Gordon, the james cornered thing? It's it's like the. ability for comedians to give people space when the world is moving so quickly around them and that set when she talked about passing away just sojourn gracefully in its in as contacts you never expect us like that, yeah and so are you're surprised. You're, just like oh cool murray, is doing cordon like I'll watch that I like marie a lot and then sort of it says the line and my mother love life and that's that's the only way she says it yeah and I I mean it, it is a joke. Yeah yeah, it's and its heart I heard in I write about nine eleven, the buchan and nine eleven was this one moment, and then we sort of have to process this thing, but code was happening as an ongoing thing is ongoing. While I was writing the book and hard to stop and reflect on a thing. While people are sure dying, he s in said to give people are five minutes and I think.

it allowed me to sort of work in them. Having that moment happen. Having consists first thought of doing bucket for covert, but after my brother I, but it allows you to start working entire life. You thought about doing before your brother S. Now now I now, after all, is after I am did along article about adam sandler, asked my book age and if and would want a book about only Adam sandler, any basically said not really not, that the book, I would one day there like a bye. interfered arena for not mike, I sort of Hetty exercised right and he's a go about a general book about comedy and I had read the book ways of seeing you by john burger sure as I can you do, that for com, you can you sort of not just give people opinions about what is good about payment? yeah. It's like how do you look at art directly, and so I cannot do that for company, which is where do look at it. Sort of abstractly end

so. The end then covert happen so than death. It was sort of all around, and so that was going to be theme, no matter what cause. I was writing the book, but I do think that happening maybe revisit and end the decision where I was in the sort of I have stuck in this of grief and an making enacted precision to go see reggie watts being like. Maybe this will make me feel better and and having such a high expectations for the show to be like my brother passed away and I we need this can mean. What do you got to save bs and I and I d his just went and it really dead end. We really, even though but that's also improvisational, music, expiring. Yes, oh it just sort of, I was in it and I felt connected to people and I didn't feel so isolated in and part of what that experience that was covert and looking back is that

mine by nature. I am, and I am prone to detachment I am prone to being in my head yeah, and I think that is sort of a genetic predisposition what my mom pass away. One seven. I think that also is is part of it, which is a sort of you it's, a protective than ready to get less, invest in people in your less likely be hurt when things go sidewise, that's interesting. I mean you you're lucky, you didn't have deep mental emotional problems, I mean your dad's dora. by I mean I and I get that I get that from my own perspective, that I know that your How is a way of of deflecting there? It way of you know kind of hijacking the emotional tone of a conversation disarming. You don't we and we talked about that. I think it is in the book, but in terms of if, if you're a person that that is

isolated who else is going to make you laugh, you need it yeah, it's like that It's like the martin star character, in freaks engaged at that moment that everybody loves so much well you just sitting at home, watching channeling on merv griffin or something and enjoy enjoyed judd. Having that experience as well and me having that experience as well, for, however, your isolated or weird or yeah a socially incapable that you know, the connection that comedy makes with yours is deep in ever lasting unnecessary yeah. So that's where you're coming from where I come from, and I think that is It really underlined how power could be when not taken for granted and operated. ethically went wendy when the comedian is being open right when the iron, if the eye, it's as being open and a comedian, can be open. Really remarkable things can happen and I dont discredit other our phones. Ability to do that. I just

I understand comedy comedy works for my brain I mean that's that it's also immediate yeah and you feel in your body right. It's like you are, as far back in your your you, might be in your head- is what you want, but you're laughing your body moves, and I laugh I'm a very physical offer, and that is that it is it such a like a visual metaphor of you being we've, into the present yeah and also yeah, it's uncontrollable. If you, if you surrender to it, which it is no just realising this now, which is with grief as water. Is that, though, it's not coming from the outside Really, you are you not looking for it by it in terms of sadness and and physical icing, it in and actually crying its uncontrolled there for a while. Anyways, yes, which is at You say you have to be in it and, I think part it is, and I went back to work after my my brother has fairly quickly.

because I want it. You know I wanted to do something and I think that's the normal thing to do, and but you're doing the sort of two things of like. Oh, I want to process this, but I also you know I just want to get onto my label and and that their push and pull, and I think there is something to just sort of giving into it and I think for awhile right, you know, but you idiot it's gonna I mean you were out, you ve learned. This is alike you don't you gonna get over when you get over, you never really get over it and the greek just sort of level ah somehow integrate itself into your being here and now you're going to be there forever. They are that sense of loss for what it is, I am not. I I I'm not sure that we're not constantly all grieving? Almost everything, as each day goes by the others lost you day lost another day I mean or getting closer to what a again demanded asia than ever, and I think that is its it. You know-

was apparent at a young age. It's it's hard for you not to sort of see the world as versions of loss, and I think I and I think comedy at least from my understanding. It helps with that there is there something sort of there isn't can we talk about the fact that we die in a sort of like are in a sort of dark way, but I do think the the sort of how to put it or that were sort of all here and were doing this thing that doesn't make any sense, which is existing yeah and at any point we die you much. I think for for a brain. just as the denial of daddy I yet so when I think an end when I read denial death. Before I started reading the book I sort of had along phase of procrastinating, where I just read books sort of it may be that I propose

from here, as I regret that- and there is the idea of legitimate foolishness and the sort of this sort of cure for neuroses is this need to sort of like and its prey at odd translation, but essentially like the need to not taking seriously need to be, silly or to centrally like be pre men right wherever you're, a sort of like laughing and playing a naughty afraid right and Is the only way to be. like. How can you find yourself tend to be not afraid considering all the bad things are currently happening, all right, well. Well, ok! So that's the groundwork, and in you know you do go through trying to make. You know a pretty big context. Yeah, you know, for you know, a comedy is culturally what it is, physically what it is as an audience member emotionally. But here through this. You know your piece by piece with your audience. Headings like it's funny, timing, politics, truth, laughter,

the line tax community connection, and I think pretty thorough and all of them, but you you know going into this- for me as a comic you ve got to before, the internet, and maybe before come before social media platforms. Ina, and even maybe a little before, comic produce show yeah or or the might culture or or even the first wave I turned at the omni, not being yourself Cisco were in the fifties, you're being what would be the mid nineties, J right yeah? They ask and who started like I did it work where you tat ye urine. Option was the club, the and the upper mike at the club and then going the club system then I'll turn. It happened in in inform me that was different than what it became or what it was thought of an eye

you captured a fairly well, but like one of the arguments me and brendan, you used to have a lot about the second wave of all comedy is like you know, what happened to many of those people is that it didn't necessarily have that profound impact on cambodia per se. and what I started to sort of thinking. In the reason I found the book, though the last few chapters specifically about the two or maybe three generations at this point after media and they're doing it. You, you want to believe that the fundamentals don't change in terms of banana, but they they do tat because you know people eat look to live comedy as much as they used to But nonetheless I guess my point is: is there we've been in this business for almost forty years, everything that happens despite what happened? You know after the two logical ability to generate quickly and efficiently and systematically,

everything that happens in comedy almost ninety percent of it. I've seen before shore and and and and its guys, like you and on that, You can take that tone. However, you want it's your job, you, contextual Isaiah. Whoever gives a shit about what you're saying, but the truth of the matter is, is that you know there have been people take risks being vulnerable losing their mind, pushing the line way beyond anything that you could even imagine you know four as long as I've been doing comedy, and then suddenly, you know from probably before that it just it doesn't have any cultural significance in two it does because popularity or because of you, yeah I think it's and want to do things which is either a lot of that exist balls are like I dont I can't imagine anyone has invented anything new because there's been so many comedians, just not

on anyone's radar in whatever city doing things they might have. You know, like the differ as you know, like in example of like Hannah gasping, and that is that. they did a special where there was a large pockets of not laughing on purpose, And- and I said it- they, though they were not the first comedian who is not funny for half their set. The difference is this became an international phenomenon and, as a result, it must be reckoned what, because that means there's something this special and there's something about culture. Ready for that, and then I can download. I can comment on culture because they cared about it but the, but but when you break it down. Had a gadsby was inefficient the working comedian who knows how to do comedy, despite what anybody may you whether in a thick I had prayed ended on a decade of yeah who would know whatever thick headed person decided wasn't comedy, and but it also spoke to the moment of of payment

our key out of control in and me too, that's the thing meters, the reason it became a sensation. If you ask how to get there have at as Hannah gets me, they were like when they are not utter fairly popular australian comedian. doing this. They were like all. This will be an international sensation and make me a huge american comedian and they work through like all comedians and also a philosophical predicament of I think comedy is going. wrong direction in whatever way, and there has been generations of that, since the I'm sure I don't. I know read this shortcomings of nineteen. Fifty thought that the hacks of uniting job, then that not denied its thinking, the nineteen thirty than and obviously the chilly berman's asked that's obscene hued revolution where people are pushing back and certain orthodoxies pointed their predicament dated a thing, what makes it did. What this book is is one, it is a notable they they succeed in what we are trying to do, and

resonated. So then I could be like. Why did what? What is it resonating and and wasn't? How does it reflect more as a culture is, which is of meeting with having an where the cultures with comedy, which is a point they may which is our access to laughter, is at an all time We have the ability to find things that make us laffer easily, which some radiance believe, puts a camera The committee is in a position to do something for the freedom to do something else, and, it says that are happy to have it because they don't need the comedians do thou that's all committees have to that. Obviously, but there is a freedom do shows that feel still count and feel like stand up I have a lot more room for different types of story, telling approach and right now there's a lot of people do want people shows and in LISA new york I dunno have it here, yeah, but I mean, but that you, you know what Hannah gatsby implies when something like tat becomes, truly polarizing, and then you know, people equally motivating. Not unlike we talked to

How are you talked about, and I talked about with you- you know how how nine eleven splintered the committee, the comedy community in terms of of tower and forces, not tolerance in terms of jingoism in terms of potential. racism in that stuff. You're vow! what sort of a big moment by Think Hanno had a big moment, because that was able to go eyes it? We some me a progressive momentum around yo taking, patriarchy at an feminist ideas. And am modern feminism and that was a wine, would some stuff that was going on in television but Ultimately, you know why, and is at the other side, gets fortify the well and- and now we have a situation which I think you have a very well, which is something I talk on the shore lied about your tribalism, national colleagues, that you are able to track in but the idea, community and that yield that comedy is you know,

whoo of community building a new site bell hooks when you're, citing thou hooks, it's usually a proactive community that that we're bill here here and now you have a tribal lies, many culture, because mainstream show business has broken down and now boy can make their own show business there. I, which I think, is the advent of technology. Anybody can make their own show business, but yes, people who deal in networks in arms are building their own networks in building their own worlds. like in a rogan primarily You're no longer need major india business at all. So then you have that community who also believes that aid can dictate what comedy it is and we area and I think that that's a problem on both sides of polarizing The committee in terms of community is that you When can again be says, no comedy needs to change. I think god more of a fuck you then for from

makes then anything she received a feminist. I mean, I think we all kind of agreed and saw a point, but Will you tell me that you yourself by but put but back again in terms of repetition and why you know I think what you're doing is important too. It is important to see that the biggest problem here is that you, but this amazing amount of time creating this you'll context. of of why and what you know comedy is Who, what, when aware of how would impact culture, but ultimately the audience for this book is gonna, be who lad the question I don't know yet write a book is only been out. They may the hope was the odd and I wrote it for people who love comedy as much and followed as much as I do people I listen to the show people listen to other common pot. Guess the hope is you I'm trying like I'd united bertz podcast right. So maybe, if I do some of those people who are also fashion themselves, common,

fans, but are silo to a different part of the comedy world, will read this book and disagree with things and an understanding of it more with the goal of this would just to evolve. The conversation you now is it there can be a large group of people. right, who read the book and sort of take it in time and, like you know what I've changed my mind. No, but like maybe well just sort of loose in the nature of the conversations or not having the same sort of as you said, there's cycles of this or of freedom does this, and now we can transgressor this way anymore. It's it's been around for as cliffs book Catherine. Their late eighteen hundred so ended is there's also, then the people who don't from a lot of comedy, but do not It is a cultural force and have been killed. Is about how that happened. I was in. I was interviewed years ago I think ready to begin a pandemic interviewed on upon cast end or tie he bowed comedians during the pandemic and the cultural critic

just goes. Why are we talking to you not like dismissive like? Why did this happen? How do I care about what comedians were doing during a national tragedy, and thus this book is kind of expense. how that happened? Where. And I soon when you're, starting when a A tragedy happened. The first thing wasn't like what a comedian saying about that and now the thing that has evolved in my lifetime, which is like when things happen when there mass shootings or whatever a lot of time, people look at comedians, org and end if they dont say sometimes something people are dismissed like a disappointed comedians if they don't yeah, but what's shifting since it she said yeah and it's like you know, it was like after nine eleven which you talk about in the book like comedy, is dead, but you know like for me: I've been doing a joke on stage about your distance, in which you talk about in the book, but the type of a comedian at a different time, where I'd needed to address it immediately because it was so joost up and it was there was no way was going to work near by.

by unita to you, you want to give jump on the yoke. So I do I'm tired, I'm telling a story about you know walking round louie by I was hanging out with the previous version of louis who, my friend and he was about to do his first letterman and the oklahoma city bombing. It just happened, and I was the kind of comic that was lacking a guy get on my guy and I say in the act, and I say I was very busy on nine twelve now I gotta so and we did in agony. You got it in here, the honour those quotes yeah from from the guys it were were. In the closet, right after nine eleven, but we tell Louie he's, got an alarming and your mike, what you mean you gotta mention it have you if it's how you knock and bring it up in this fight, minutes sat on television, and in any this story goes it. He went out to rubber Morton the producer

ago and know in Morton was like, I feel feeling and in Louise, like while I dunno what to do with this oklahoma city thing: marin, mark marin, things I should china and importance as you that's why Martin are not doing this yet, but the point that I'm I'm trying You make here. In terms of looking the camp comedy it was night. It was not for information, though it was or was it for the ability to compare many eyes. You know the idea that comics that comics ikea, like right now as a jew and as a comic Your people like what you think of Israel and its like? That's it it's it's a trick, question and on some level all that it would serve for we are we like whoever's, asking me what what is your point of view on it, because if I dont honour it, then I'm a fuck So you know that's part of the incentive, but I think they comics. this idea, the comics or truth hours. You is is part of this free speech right wing, diego at this point in time. You know because the fucker

mix, and you are going to do some version of what ever they got off the internet or her or construct that I mean the better ones are going to say. This is all bullshit area, but I come from that you I come from this idea and you know you you you're a fairly short shrift hicks because he does happen in the parameters of what are you here? this was a guy. You know whether, whatever line you think it is, or whatever is required of a comic clear rooms on purpose to an end. If that was happening before anybody in the alternative world- creating something not even as menacing too to make that point, and I guess what I'm coming back to is that and what everybody says it is its objective criteria. in that. That is the bottom line, because you know you give the proper amount of attention, which is many pages to maria bedford, who buy or is the the stand up commodore in decades.

Like I said I say there such commie soldiers subjective other than richard prior and rear ban for the greatest comedians right. All time right and that's how we oriented, which I gave the end If that to me, the value system is those two comedians. Then we can start thinking about what good and what what we mean by good comedies just objective in it. Would you laugh at us built into euro as a person and there isn't a hit. Three like a lot of our firms have of of creating values. sums of knowing how to appreciate things they write book is somewhat soaring that conversation right. But yes, I I there is an earlier drafts had, but I had a good amount about maria banal. much as I and my colleague, Catherine baron von air, don correct for culture, like I thought you might have, we would have been more maria and it just as I know how much I appreciated and I end and then in a later draft I ain't I think I add all the stuff in the last chapter which really No, what happened? She did the late night said after she

If so, then I was like well. This is this gets at the other part of it, and even when you brought up that late night set as being this moment of respite from the noise of culture to emotionally connect with reef in an honest way. You said that, like It's something that happens. Often, observers, Do you like that? Like you know this? Finally, comedian did what their response today, no one's going to do that, but I is it elsewhere. It also speaks through my shifting attitudes in. I was talking to brendan about what I thought you know the Gee comedy, really wire and, and I think, yo ass as we get older and as we have some life, you stop to realize you. What is the nature? real rich now. You know, and the two sides are that you have the school of hicks. Where it's, what you say and and

and then you get from their. Unfortunately, to what are you two woke yeah right you and I, and I think you you handle them very well too The region is gangs and and What evolved out of that? yeah this is night at these are not ideological guy. The area these are you know it s, sort of like we're just kind of nihilistic clown. The idea that are trying to get away with something and fuck some people's heads neo caused some shit, but I think it might be. I don't know he characterize it this way in the book. It's it's true. Is she a it's like lets you will make the grown ups man, the area I just saying a thing- is that people take seriously by not it just like a truly has evolved on that day. I've area did you know him yeah yeah, but it. But let's talk about this, give of edge. Is that when you deal with, if these are your, your poles,

they are trying to create a narrative in between or or or a theory or Austria. Conversation is prior and in an maria is at the essential force about them, is vulnerability hundred percent that the thing that is the thing that I and understand what vulnerability means like a talk about it in a lot of the chapter, but like mainly the chapter on truth because we had done gave a comedian truth. Teller is a narrative non us I put forward by comedians, but in terms of sort of media understanding will comedians, they thought were doing and also yes, that's true, going through through language area, you that you are you're trying to integrate the idea, vulnerability, as a fundamental truth. Yes, does the general understanding is it's. What did he say? Yeah yeah, I'm trying to move, I mean saying it's a thing that big part of it, which is, I think it I think I say meltwater. Hundreds of has been too much focus on what comedian say, instead of how they say it right, and I think

an end by how it means the entire context of the person saying it, and so I I contrast louis, partly because louis at the time was heralded as the most truthful comedian. That's ever lived, there were just so many that just then and some of it he help foster, for somebody was just people I buy truthful in the way that he was saying. I was the one way, why shouldn't be sat? Yes, that's what the acrimony about sex and child, ria exactly area and then- and I I I I break down this sort of way of thinking and focus on what I think is more truthful in a sort of deeper way which is sort of committed to a vulnerable, and I talk about maria. I talked about tig. What you wanted said: rick kantor talk about Margaret Cho, and the idea is that often you hear a certain type of committee be like all that guy's fearless onstage right, then usually the a guy by fearless they mean they're willing to do. You know make one of anyone willing to say any words: they have no fears without state, but that is not being fearless special

for doing to an audience who wants that radio out of that once we become professionals, and we can make it happen again and again your fears here, yeah pirie yeah by but you're right, it's it's used to two connote current. Yes, where'd it. if there's no ramifications for sanctions, than theirs. It's not that meets. there's just be no fear involved, but that's where I begin now. We have these bubbles. So fearlessness is like this idea that I might get cancer like no, you won't you're not talking to anybody who's going to famous right, you're, you're famous or your worlds attack your idea. It's butt and it's it's a cheap way to raise the stakes of jokes that are probably underwritten right. It's like oh there's, none of tension because you you the audience like when I say the words, I'm not to say so, then I have to it would seem like we're doing something dangerous. Just others more energy to oh, let's get back to normal below so, but why think is actually dangerous is putting yourself out there when you are your boss,

is physically at risk. As I say, lake both yo tag thought she would lose work by telling people she was sick or there is a history of people not any work, because they are open about having mental health issues. That is true, then talk about it on site. Age in in this town is is risky, is a thing that a comedian could be fear. I've, told to do it anyway, because you should work how'd you as an artist and are you want to help. People to me is an is a noble pursuit is taking the are from my right, absolutely, but not to diminish the the industry was able to carry the anna maria and was at the same time when there is the issue was well. We can't use because we can insurers yea cancer or or she's gonna bring the audience down. You know we now have a. We do have safe rooms because, It is have been built here, but in the general population. You know like

when I think about prior when you know you people are these conversations between the goat b in a prior or chapels, is that you have there there's no, no comparison, because you know price I could not help himself and in terms of how we lived his wife, which was. out of control and and also with his need to share it dear. So you you're dealing with somebody who's. This with these own abilities of the experience of of growing up in a brothel and then you're having a a self destructive streak? he's completely thou us all. The time because the most vulnerable things about prior outside of your wedding he did in terms of bridging the race gap for me the risk of of of Profound humiliation, because of how you lived here, what you did in Processing that, on stage is

is the most human think he could do death. He could do all its accuracy grew up in a very electrify I'd anne and dumb lively, child also the thing at thy. Why mention richard and andrea? Together? They also both exceptionally talented right there. just like the good joke, right, in which they are, I let you do voices they can do act out right in that. I think why, richard is number one, and I I can't imagine anyone station. That is not, that is that he took from there was not even close to being ready for that same just by the sheer will of his charisma and talent and willing to take a risk. He He modernize the hour for road like ryan so almost so ahead of time that it took a very long time for people to catch up. To an end, and even the idea there being safe audiences was is, was long they be at twenty thirty years before happen. Now I like that there are safe,

Neither can I do think it benefits the hour form for the audience to flee. Receptive of people like I ended, and I do understand the benefit of a sum of morocco and tag mystic relationship. sometimes because it allows you to figure out how to translate the jokes to wider audiences, but without the audience that is supportive and while it is have you of the support of audience. That means you should be taking risks terms of vulnerability and in terms of my value systems, artful, that's right. If you have the support of audience, the other way, which is we don't need you to take risks in terms of on a belly, but we just want to hear you say the word that the opposite of a supportive, but why did they condensing audience what but might see like it? If you can visit the other point that I have where I get argumentative with ideas, Our committee is my generation, you, ok, with the the the job was to enter tat, strangers,

you know you should be able to do that, that the ice what came out of the comedy boom was that young people go to the comedy club to watch comedy yes there The time where maria bamford, I've been on Carson and she could have heard of it and you, because we press, for that is, is jonathan winter there an end- and he was just as mentally ill is maria and and the talented everything else book? But what am I is what I've been doing by maria is, you know you put her on stage in front of a general audience right now, you're without any preconceptions that there, going to be half of the people that are like. I don't get it is she ok and in and I just even creating that character. For that three seconds, I made them

me too or I try not to be. I tried to be like. Can that audience? Who wouldn't who right respond? That way? can they evolve, and they have right. I think you put maria on stage at a e, a l even lesser, like I think, there's even more context for now, because there's so many comedians who are more add who are influenced by. I mean like just the fates fact of how many of you sakharov mental health on stage now compare to twenty years ago, is significant, like now sort of alternative spaces. Parleyed, fine, all comedian it is it is. It is a thing that people there they ve always been doing that. I used to talk about how you the language of contemporary comedy fur for decades in the sixtys and seventys was fundamentally self reflected mentally jewish and end fundamentally, driven by idea of analysis yeah. This is the weird thing is like you would see, well do you know what my the action to with annual which was,

was furious. I was furious and when I talked to him I was here- and I have heard about it, but I yeah, I was like I didn't know if this conversation was only going to be about your interview with gerard, but I knew was going to be a little bit about it, for you do yeah, but you know you had you frame it in either the the final the beginning of the latest version of what you would call turned of comedy in that year it has its place, but you know outside of bow burnham, who I think you're out of all of them, as as comedic visionary. What the guy like. You know that that thing you did during the pandemic and also all hysteria is there's a guy that that takes no risk, but also is, insanely talented, like you said, intellectually up for the the challenge, but even with the intimacy that you claim and an end and having that being

some sort of indicator of of a new generation like I'm having our time seeing you, I think you're right, you're looking for a sort of transparency draw is not going to that think one youth eyes. I think it's completely fair The type of vulnerability that you respond to is now message of intimacy that rod is after, like, I think, he's more interested disorder that these are. Cinematic feeling of closeness as much as actually feeling like you know what this person soul is and when I right about em in the book. It is partly a bow the moving. A word of specials filmed like an hour an hour form an eccentric thinking about his birth. Annual as much as an actor trying to make it

as much as okay I'll give him that fine he's a good actor but yeah he sits in here. Pretending, like you know he was shooting from the hip that night. It wasn't that I and that's why I'd interested in. I think we would agree that that is where you guys were up, which is he is doing he still. That presto, round with annual I opinion- and I have not spoken to him- felt like continued performance, the entire thing was a performance piece which like I am going to say play a part of a person who is doing this sort of vulnerable work I an a wide. That is why did it, but I can see why special one to wine you but you're, not actual you're. Not this is the same thing what you're not being vulnerable in so much as you're, not scared to do any of this, because he's so in control of whatever that instrument is yeah and also he doesn't give a fuck yeah. I mean I mean, let's say like I there's Can I talk to you, Michael in you know and okay. Ok! So if you're going to say about the structure of the special and taking that

the next level, which is always a challenge, and they it's been tried in a lot of different ways, and you know I I asked bow to direct mine last one just because I thought well. Maybe you could do something interesting with me because you know. Actually a fucking you're bleeding wound yeah half the time, but you have eaten boy, but he said he was in a deal with netflix, but why would he want to? I was condescending to him. I might you know I mean you're, the the I find that lend it I think is is it is when I wrote a piece about special has a visual medium. That is one examples. Examples that too I have like she was. She knew she was right. This is what this guy does. I know him. Well, I'm gonna stay in india and she also I remember, I think we talked about it a little bit I asked you about how she shot at and here you know she had the intimacy of it. But Imagine this, which was she I thought you did seem Like I'm paranoid. There are certain shot shoddy through like wind, so. Are you look like a lunatic that was going falling apart,

no, she was hiding from for me. I like, I always wondered if huge. If she never told you she did that, because if you watch the specialty tracks, you yeah it's like it's like being watched, not like your being want like an audience, they are being watched by the cia yea and it also found too, when I wrote that, knowing that you have not mentioned that this in return, for under that article being like that's exactly what we are trying to you. Ve, been let's body of europe. Do not have a movement that you have said What antagonism towards building not going to talk about some towards no I know all. I only want his credit that I gave it to you. Thank you, you're. The intro paragraph of this example of thing. Okay, good! Thank you. Thirdly, I obviously I get to be farragut Linda credit you would she deserves it. Because, like I know what I do, and I can't pretend to do it, I do so when people pretend to do it, I do or pretend to do it a period

yeah like you. Would you Michael, like the the device of this special that have laughter wherever gerard, was trying to the idea that first one he fuck? That guy is what he did He sold them a bill of goods and it was a it was a faulty. I do think I can- and I think drew would agree, but allow drew to then when he drew does his next special and the after that to be like. Well, I'm the guy that did that right. There is something about even a big swing and a miss in hollywood that ye think he was like. Well, that's the guy that takes pictures. Things you can he can get at earlier. What's he doing now, while he's he's doing a new show, I haven't seen yet which sucks, but you know he's doing a new show. That's only about her The hearing having hearing loss of just now is returning to the hook that he should have started, but he has used. It seems like he's doing in a specific way. With that uses audio cute, I have, I heard you accuse a creative guy. My problem with him was that you know he assumed the mantle of self importance there

you know I've seen other people do dealer and I've seen similar jokes so that my big problem with him was. Is I you know you if you're going to pay homage, then here don't do it exactly the same way? Yeah like you know he he's oven type of comedian, that there's only a handful yeah. and you know you ve got to sort of own that legacy and not like you invented. I understand the heath exit. I remember the interview how my how you It is a fundamental disagreement of how much you thought he was. simply doing once was a big thing and not owning it. I do think partly- drew, was commenting on that legacy as much as participating in that, like say, Nora but this book. This is where I'm just a cranky old guy that I think that we all you're the only guy. That gives me credit for anything. I appreciate, I think I mean you're here throughout this book, for a lottery, closer yeah, yeah,

because I remember when he have it, because I am had that those very deep in the writing process and I just needed something to get to maria and the sort of last paragraph which I had and then we had interview- and I realize oh, that chapter starts with my interview with you and you saying the thing about like when we look back at his time. Yeah realize how lonely we all were and its outcome around and added so yes, it's very important, but I think the fundamental distance, we meant. We have ordered fundamental, different perspective. I think it's why I wrote this book is you because of their experience and because you to do the job. Believe the job of a comedian is to be an entertainer, which I think is a completely valid perspective, and I don't believe, I'm an entertainer. I guess it's not why I got really. They should enter you. You have to do the job of a comedian and I don't always think is entertainment or so, but that's okay, but I don't have to care about the job of the comedian, because I am not. I don't have to go up on thurs, okay, yeah right. So then I could just be detached from it and b. This is all about you wanting to be a comedian. Now, okay, go

it isn't right a book and I want him. It is not for me. I like, like being funny. There's jokes in the boat, but I could just not I'd I'd. I don't I honestly, I don't like the experience of new made the right decision. the irish, had hoped that has a guy. But I do see immediately if it will save you how people are raising of going on. I am free to not care about the job of the comedian to just think about it. Sort of cultural forest near comedians as ideas and an look, it's this book is not a detail history or some sort of no years my perspective on a thing. An end it is, I am minette waiting time it and I am sure in comedians that fit a sort of idea that I want to come across, there are another thousand comedians. I could have written about these committees at best exhibited what are trying to capture

a lot of time? There are famous comedians because famous mediums have cultural impact by their famous means I didn't could cause. I couldn't figure out how they fit through these sort of ideas of how I see it but it is, but I am free to do that because I don't have to be I do the job and I think, that's useful, I think comedy benefits from having people whose job is not to do that, but to sort of be a conduit yeah. It helped me a good contextual stuff for me, and it made me think differently about you know. Even even a in the garage who I don't have anything against you, but like I'm, I you know turns out that I'm really sort of dug in and I and I have principles around what I think it is yeah and- and you know ultimately, you know- I know what a joke guy is. You know, I know what a guy who's doing. Something on purpose for effect is I know you know what real vulnerability and for me you know whether I like a person or not. If I can see who they are, then I then the connection I'm looking for. Usually you even it's a persona, you know

I can feel that connection kenya, that that's human to me and in an I'm sort of like that, but you haven't usually I like pretty goofy comics and when I went to when I want to watch colony I would also add that you have to be dug in, I think, to do the job of an artist to be and agreed comedian. You can't be like what I think is comedy right now. You have to know there were people in this book that do that, what the idea that it is their drive that dwight What do I think comedy is right now what what kind of tricks do I want? What kind of games do I want to play? You'll like as much as I love cape roland and I watch her and, and I think, she's very good yeah, but but sometimes it seems like an exercise in moving the needle. which is fine, but you know, isn't it a good night out for me, but I'm not that generation yeah, but I I but I think, she's very bright and she's very smart, but I crave our new show, the the keto, oh yeah, it's great and I like that. It's a theater experience and I think she's great, but

I also know she's very heavy person, and I know that you know I'm enough of an art person to know when you you know there are calculated things that are done to two to make up. Or more or to elevate absurd as yet for its own importance, and I get all that is in understand it, and I can appreciate it. But I guess think that you know with me and stand up yeah what what what I want is I want you know just raw humanity on to die either come through to me or or beyond, display yeah. I also think I I compare it to as the as you say- the the sort of book as it goes on these tantras, but it compare to post structuralist architecture right, I compare to people who are motivated deeply. Formerly, They they try, ok and want to push back the array. Any thing I don't think gerard is

like every comedian should be exactly like what I'm doing. My don't know by would be weird, but I think he's just trying to expand the palette of what counts as a special special and I do think by and not unlike nanette, by buying radically unfinished. This is a giant, maybe a generous reading. But by being radically unfinished it it does push back on how a lotta specials feel radically regimented. and expectations vacation yeah yeah, because we all try. We all kind of deal that, like We did this special antis fun in a black box either by default, yeah- and I have a problem with those big theatres- but here the interesting thing about all those theatres that Are we see uncommonly specials? I mean, I think, the big. Jump was like, don't show the audience, because that's what I was an old school thing just to be able to cut yeah. So that became my big thing, but and ultimately, those old time, theatres that the deadly comics do them in her arms

establish that they become these passive character, vienna yeah, so it actually showcases the comic better better than any of the other way, because if you're going to make character. Out of the space right, then that's a distraction, but everybody's used to those dumb big theatres d I do not mean yeah, so you just watching the comic and then but back to your credit, I mean I think at seeing like both dating wet linda anyway, you're people started you think was right, and we all want that to happen. But sometimes there not as effective as just a comic another, and that's ok, I mean I got I really like it just need all I care about nano look around. I shouldn't say that way, but like ultimately, I just want there to push back the idea that there's one way of doing it like that that we just have to expand the definition of what specials are and what stand up could be and and not because I I particularly want it just that it is

Dont want the opposite happening of exhorted, franking and drinking and and eight- and I think you agree, which is part of the people who are most righted Only one way of doing it, and it's saying, he's bad words whatever are. That is the most extreme example of you know like there's this. because I can mean is only job is to transgress, and we were out there to do this, like that's, not the only job of a comedian, it could be used. Those transgressions at those comics about aren't even transcribed echo in that's the thing that even sillier amused. The real transgressions are. What you're talking here is Actually, I understand now that young, if you're, going to u connection, It is that his art, Then then, it has to ask as grass it has to evolve and risks have to be taken. You're transgressions, just by your being a bully and and and and and sort of making lives. Worse were peoples whose wider already pretty bad and then, but building the momentum in the community to them where are the there

the last say the, what comedy is this? An army of fucking phone, lightened meet heads who know how to to do squealing disease and enhance, have sex dick arguments. because they're fuelled up we're talking points call everybody but their guys hacks when they don't even know the real me. We realise that the irony of that that's we're up against, because the ones that are saying this is our comedy, and its problematic, because, those guys that that movement absorbs alot of people because you're in the guise of free speech, you know they align themselves. They don't, I dont think because of their size fishes in their egos, and some of them what their nihilistic contain, no realise how easily appropriated the on us by fascist momentum that is real! So, when you're pushing back on their context of what comedy is an isn't the army of fuckin morons, who claimed to

comedy vans better. But that aren't ya. It's it. That's what going to diminish the yeah and going to diminish democracy. I will not go. We convinced not coincidentally, the nature, the limiting of the liable for right I mean like look. I write like I do not say in the book. They are not that as a kind of limiting is is, is easy is right, but what this fucking eighty idea, yet in an aggressive way and making on companies to do it and making it not worth the squeeze of being in those spaces them they sort of carve out spaces for just them Spaces get larger and larger, and then you have the spaces, become the size of madison square garden, easily right and then, because of the nature of industry works, you have the bouquet of committing them. The margin, like while I could, if I go in there, direction. That deathly seems like it can ever career and and you have to do, is have a profound denial of how your jokes might be received differently than you intend them. Right, but also, I think what what happens now is that before were coming

rob against in terms of taking chances, was just the main street yeah and now What were up against is a highly effective, yo propaganda machine of certain ideology that is in force, mean comedy. Then they don't know it because there are fighting this fight. That's not even a real fine an end. So that in I dont know that that's main stream, but that is force within culture that that mainstreaming is not what it used to be. You yoke is mainstream show businesses become you hobbled gale. Yet I also think it is outside our control. Will in so much as that edo, as I explained the book that algorithms are pushing people from them, two things that are further away from them: a time and then and then re associating that right, it's like those guys might make fun of ben Shapiro or whatever or make fun of not nick wendy,

the about that's gonna, be the next. Really you see when you flip, because you had it and I'd look. It happened. I researching the book that happens if you want Joe rogan. They will then associated with and if you watch that they'll do and the next thing you know you're you're, one, you're, one of them like I've seen it. I know what it feels like to be ratified. Surprise, I'm a cat guy who know what can happen to me. They thereby users that I had almost no interest and watches before the pandemic, a series of you to algorithms, it is now my main interests outside of comedy. Does it think that had no end, I could happen to right? Well, here we are at a go eyes: watch guy yeah! Now, thankfully, about if I had a lot more money available, those guys talk about dealing in selling but lake, Why then think they pat there's an algorithm a very powerful things that are built building, you can't it around what not what you're interested in. But what will make you keep on watching right and they know that by the

this one element of all of those comedians is that has the most Jews and we're going to keep pushing for them. For that truth and that radicalizing you bit by bit. Without your knowledge, that's happening, and so your being presented some one then you don't even know their radical and then and but in two. Of their sort of opinions about Jews or whatever. My next. You know this guy very funny too, and and why it is a moral problem as those people the really radical the people who are truly anti semitic race, then that's their mission. They are doing this purpose. They know that they can easily full the algorithm to trap, special young men here, and As a result, I don't have an answer to that. There's ultimate. There comes a situation where comedians are in a situation where people can misinterpret their work or put them in. dick they don't want to be in and they either have the option of denial or

pushing away some of their fans. That's and I dont know if I met a community, is really willing to be alert to put away and who are interpreting them incorrectly right, won't except for gentlemen yeah well, but he giant. He can't get him out of the room, but he knows back but now put the push back as part of it right, I think just like other committees tries hard is, but even that he says in a funny way, then they could be like right. That's what he's being ironic about when you have a right by it, but you know this, but to me this was the most. Sort of horrific Observation along these lines, in terms of what we're talking about which is from the book, is through play and jokes that the perversion starts happening as I've said, jokes means influence. People's expect, the expectations of and their interactions, other comedy it is here conservative adjacent comedy becomes a tool, the right andrew angling. The founder, the neo nazi website, the daily storms up upfront about the fact that he uses humor

a trojan horse for his bigotry angling, understands that most people are uncomfortable. Would vitriolic raging non ironic hatred, so his goal is for the unemployed. Turn aided, not to be able to Tell if we are joking or not that's a quote from it. He can do these quote. There should be a conscious agenda to dehumanize the enemy, to the point where people are ready to laugh at their debts, so in clear that we are doing this, as that would be a turn the most so normal people we rely on our young lulls. That's the end, it's purpose and on purpose declaration of what I ve been talking about for a long time radicalizing of of the people watching comedy. the comics r r are guilty in that they ve been duped as well either through ego or nihilism dumbness by, but did you know you talk this stuff and then you because of the bubble

all the other jazygae doesn't get. It he's a hack zadok, whatever the vienna. So so This becomes really a bow was stabbed the idea and what you talk about with the generations after me, young coding. You know gerard in an and drew who you know I accept grey. Hey look: I can't wait to tell drew that I I I dunno what his experience with me was in terms. I think he he he didn't have the best time mobile, yeah yeah. I think the what it felt like to listen to, I think was that he can tell that you were dismissive of some of all the things that we talked about. I think you re the arab that right. but I still think I was wrong I hear you, but you don't have to you, don't have to get involved. I mean look at him. Part of it might have been. You know. again my own sensitivity to what, I've done in my career yeah that, for whatever reason, either insecurity reality either I dont get a preacher.

in necessarily or because I'm an old man, I think there is the feeling- and I think you are more successful than that- there's a lot of times where right now, because of social media and stuff there are comedians, were extremely as for doing versions of other comedians, were not that famous right. So I always been the what yeah without social media, but now we have it, but now how famous they are and how less aim at the other one there's always been, there's always a few guys behind every famous guy. I was doing. That was my bid even yet, but I understood that being so, you see drew playing in yours, it's like, but you get. credit. You should be comfortable yeah. I will thank you, that's always working for, but in this book a lot I love it more than drew oh good. Well, there will thank you No, but I you know, I'm thinking guy, I'm not I'm not hitched to just comedy now, but but but all what we're talking about these generations, two or three after me, is what you're trying to do and what needs to be done, whether,

the other side reads us or not, but in terms of like this is a attempt. add elevating the form, the art form of comedy, defining the our form of comedy in the shadow of a threat to him in order to validate the art and too who incur bridget yeah, because like one of the things I notice in this is a problem with the mind world we live in is, like you know, who's gonna be, this was going to see. This is just another piece of content. Your does it matter that we look at it as an art or not, but the of that year is on yeah how social media works. How younger comedians are dealing with a what younger comics are doing, live in relation to social media and also queer comedy in general as being cutting edge. Right now is something not going to see anywhere near or even contextual. I guess I don't know the community anyone right yeah so by, but the intention is because the plane,

isn't level a you're back in the day, yet the one or two oddballs balls had the couple of characters and yet the mainstream comics, but every he were sort of around router own representatives of them were around, but that too exist anymore, because we're in when worlds. So so, in in some very real sense the world of comedy as an evolving art form that takes chances, is interesting and challenging is, is under threat. Yeah yeah and that that art form that, does those things is the form that I love and is the art form that that I want to make for more people love they. They love the one that is open to it out and seek out and because I do think, It demands, in my perspective, a bain audience there on that, wants that who wants not one needs or expanding audiences extract, visions allows for comedians, have more boundaries to to explore

our large wider boundaries to its board different things and to be open, and then that openness is how you get this. Connection that I write about a thing at the book in my perfected, which is just in that openness, not just to one definition of vulnerability, but being but there's a vulnerability just taking artistic cancer and to allow for that is to understand that comedies is an art form period and as an art, from neither can have artistic tent like artistic taking artistic chances and if you have. All of that then everyone in my open perspective will get more out of it and the end. I in my in my purse, experience there's a there's something profoundly be found there right in and we live in a culture where you know that The key motivators are effective. On adaptation and and putting asses and seats yeah. Now, that's always been part of show business

the idea of monitors, asian generating content and whatever that that that's a little different, now, obviously much different, but but truth. The matter is, is that There is a language too, to what we know is show business or cynically. content providing that that that is competitive and that winning means mass appeal, yeah or or and that is contrary and always has been too true, art near in a way and you, but you have to fight for it or you have just then the all the alternative is, then it is, I think that's right or ideas you gotta make like any fight in, and I think that the last chapter so yeah how'd side of of of reflecting on your own sort of your connection to two comedy: is that with the ad

and of certain technologies and an methods it easier and, encouraging to get that shit out there. It there's a lot of garbage here by eat. You don't have to defeat yourself entirely. You can wait until you don't give me a number of views that you consider winning yeah me too, and it's also lake a fight to get people together and doing it right. I do think that is a fight again the internet- and maybe this milk makes me you know when the person, the person who thinks I'm old thinks the book is wrong will be like, you, just your dismissive of like the internet ability to pat people connect to each other com. That's a lie. I mean I think, that right, the idea of life performance and and in the idea of community in a live near venue eyes important. I I we you know once we could stop doing soon. We did I only do yet and I think that the reason you imagine talk, not sketch incentive in particular that we stand up is at its courts. Alive are,

for, in my favorite version of the the version that I did I vote for the most is one These are working on material which has not as yet, which is not how a lot of people are consuming, while in the path is not help. People consuming work how their sort? This thing wearily, A gerard acted like that's all, that's why wouldn't I loved and then sort of unfinished thing is because there is. and I think there is a one comedians find it whatever. It is. Joke and in the audience is therefore it and if they might know, therefore, that is a special and it might not ever happen again I mean. I know that with me, yeah that you know there are moments that happen. You know I leave room on all the specials for that to happen, and it usually does, but there are don't we happen once or twice in, if someone there to witness it than you did it it's? That is, as buying is, I cam wait. Didn't I get that on tiktok yeah but by, but that is the sort of

dragon I'm chasing because I write on stage, so we aware comes from wine. What that moment is and it for it to be witnessed as import Yeah- and I also think, like you- I've talked to people recently about people going back to movies. Again. and there's this idea that, like you, know, People want to be together and neo covered over everything, but also the world is fucking there, and that is what entertainment, yo, musicals worthy biggest form of entertainment during the depression. So people are like a guy. I need something and when you sitting with other people like in, enjoy community of distracting yourself from the horror it something different than you sitting at home and sperience that year and then the next quick you make you ve been driven into a rabble of garbage and that experiences personal and you don't people do not have the need the management.

ability of their own minds, yeah, it's a difference being passive and active and enjoy your life even when you're sitting in a show like I I you know, I used to joke about it, but you don't you're paying full attention all the time. Sometimes do I go what to and what am I doing tomorrow and you know, but but you're with other people a year, but you you can have your experience in your mind, demon then, but, but think it was it. You know it's a unimportant undertaking to to and I was the last guy to get on board in calling myself an artist. I'm wary of doing it now, but I I do like that. You know you sort of because stand up always seem to be a kind, for me a calling or job but but yeah big, but it is certain gimme some structure in context and rooted history and, in your own experience, as a means to elevated and understand it. I can go, is great great

like a very those attire comes asians building. Do your one sentence review of the entire book of what it was the whole thing was your view of the book. I don't have any problem with the book. I think it's a you know the struggle for you must have been to find an effective theme. But after a certain point, you know to sort of korea. Structure was enough ryan yeah ultimately think there are certain artists who just have an instinct of what the thing is, and I think for a lot of people. They just have to do so much work and be so deep that it at that themselves. They can't help but have themselves come through. I didn't set out to write the book and have certain themes about culture that you said are to be have there be death run through it and I'd any anything allowed people. Don't we the book and even really pick up on the fact that it's sort of death is sort of running through it or sort of the the, and in so much as that, the book is about processing life and then and as a result, that means death, but it It couldn't help a puppy, my book and in a sort of

as the humor minorities in my pie in it, and- and it was a note that I got very late in the process which was sort of like I write. This is a fairly heady book, the first ten chapters, yeah and A person read it has by the end the audiences want to know who you are who's, the person that did this, is a thing. It's a weird thing to write this book this way and to be quoting these philosophers and two to having such but now that some things that may be had not got it so that that's. Why the vienna mike, ok I'll, let you in a little bit about This is why a person like this would write this book and saying like ultimately only I could write this book and you'll have your opinions, but or your view, it's about how to see it. It is about how how allowing your brain to not think differently but does not not have different thoughts to think differently about it, and I have. I am proof, positive of the fact that if you do that, there's a lot to get out of this- and I end I dont- know if comedians.

We feel the same way and enough know right. Don't tell us, don't help people, don't we want the audience want the like that, but it can means have been very generous and I think it's to help them come to terms with a lot of things that they d were doing and thinking we or right right or that they saw, but didn't have the time to sort of Research or even the middle, like I think- and this is something we experience of my pockets, which is that it's nice to feel scene. If you're doing this thing and it it and you don't know if anyone takes you seriously cetera, think there is something I hope hope, beautiful and just taking people seriously. Even the people that whose job it is to like not be serious, you know to air quotes of like there are to be silly. It's like there's something serious about that. Working people know that you know the sad clown thing they I wanted, but yeah I made that and by that's not just taken there. The seriousness could be not just in their sadness, but in their ambition, or there

vision and what they do with the silliness and how they executing whether it s a election on silliness. Yes, our good job buddy, I stand here, I thought yeah- sure Here you go those good do we all learn. I feel like. I learned the com. Book is available. Now, wherever you get books their conversation. Smart guy, hang out for a minute. Folks. What? If I told you that, instead of what I am saying now, I could be talking about your business if you're in advertiser or a marketer, and you want me to do the talking for you visit a cast self service, add platform where any business can browse and book pod casters like me to tell your story in a way audiences trust. Sixty two percent of listeners make

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an old memories. He knows who I am and all that stuff and nothing stick in that large. You feel like a responsibility to take care of him. Well, no. His wife is still hanging in there. Yet in my the way I see it is I basically I basically said look I got. I got money so when you need to put them somewhere. Just tell me whether a box or replace yeah. It voted air of can I buy my way out of those exact was a word. I worked really hard to be yeah man who can, by his way out Cause he's there she's like why isn't he come stay with you for a couple of weeks? I'm like that's, not happening and there's no way that's happening to subscribe, to the full marin, go to the episode description and whatever podcast app you're using and click on the link or go to beauty have pod dot com and click on w e, F, plus. Here's another thing I did not do in new york city this time by an old guitar magda. gotta stop myself from that shit. I was over it. How is over

raving turnover, unforced street points, old grudge from the please I'm not even a great guy by you know I love it was close. He had a telecast, your custom. It was close yeah I didn't I didn't. I did not need it and I realize that here's some old guitar from another time,

lucky in the bond

It was everywhere and.