All right. Let's do this a warrior: what the fuckers, what the fort buddies, what the bottlenecks what's happening, how's it going where you tat, where are you act, Where are you act in your heart and mind this is where you have physically Where's your mind that you know I'll be we welcome my name's mark. This is my podcast diabetes, I've been doing it awhile we're hang in there we're doing all right. How who have we chat with maria bompard on Monday, always exciting and fragile, vulnerable engaged, funny, he brings the best out me. I think today? On the show I talked to Jeff charlotte now, I've talked to the sky few times back in the day we stood talking

lot on air america, when we were covering the influence of the road Just right he's been covering religion for most of his career. He was the co creator of to religion, publications, killing, Buddha end, the reviewer he's also rolling stone, harpers, vanity, fair, the new york times magazine and much more he's he's put our books about evangelical fundamentalism in the: u s, government that was called the family and another book called see street, and they are, I would say, very important record doub understand what's happening in american now the new book and Run away from this episode just stay put: okay, because I ask him towards the end work this information. It is what it is, and it's pretty well researched through who experiential encounters. This is almost

travelogue, it's almost like a memoir through this country that he just kind of follows his instincts to visit? rallies and mega churches and smaller churches what he met her churches etana, but the recent His book is called the undertow scenes from a slow civil war, don't run away because not unlike the book I'm reading now, which is the new naomi climb book which I have to. I have to man. Yeah. I did a lot of underlining that have a full brain at that for when I talk to her, but this is this, he's out where we're add on a personal go on a political level propaganda level on a religious level in terms of how religion is being used. And you all in in the shadow of climate disaster and yeah ought to take

but you know at the end of this cause, I'm not I'm not, unlike anybody, even those of us who were catastrophic thinkers who were you already a little paranoid, a little frightened a little. backing the worst that there is part of that mindset that It looked for a little hope, at least to have a little bit of relief. You know, and I asked him in it in and you you'll get it at the and but I said to Jeff. I said boys are the, You have any hope, and I'm not going to tell you what Answer was, but he did make a point to say, look for me with or without hope, it's important to know what the fuck is up. So you can at least

I have that because denial is what drives us we're insulated in our lives. We we we take care of what's in front of us and and feel that we are doing all we can to maintain some sort of I dunno. If it's peace of mind, I dunno, if it's happening, but some sort of a grounded sense of of a you know to to sort of exist in the world, but a lot of that isn't that's not big picture stuff so this is sort of a big picture thing, but you will get the information and you can handle it. It probably just confirms You know your worst fucking nightmares, but he kind, and no, If you listen to me, you kind in no, but I would ride this out. Because you gotta take it. You gotta, take it it's important enough: and back when I was on their america, I used to do you stuff. I create language. Is somebody if, if you didn't realize it

the opening of this show what the fuckers, what the fuck bodies a sort of a river, and something I used to do. I add air america hadda. A long list of different people I would shout out to you know at the top of a show kind of list, a variety of of of people in nicknames and whatever. But also during that show I created some sort of you know glossary for myself and I, To do a lot of talking about the crystal fashion a zombie brigade. Now this was thousand and four- and this was something that charlotte, also informed in that I knew was happening. They were, they were still somewhat marginalized. They existed, but it was sort of not a closeted affair, but it behind the scenes kind of a fair and it didn't have the fuel other than religious zealotry. It has now- and I also use the term, which was indeed

speculative investigators. That was my sort of nickname for conspiracy theorist. and then years later during this show after twitter became powerful. I came up with the the the nickname army of unforeseeable hate, nerds, now, independence you have investigators, which was conspiracy theories at the time in two thousand for two thousand five years ago. In a somewhat fringe sort of movement but always there always fuelled by by right wing thinkers heritage foundation, certain political action committees who had soared feed the fire same with the crystal fascist zombie brigade. There are always operatives outside religion within the political sphere, work, on the behest of business to kind of

should along and then once the army of unthinkable hate nerds were turned out like little bitches by steve band. And my woe Yana papa papa of chocolate, yet yoda papa. Yet apocalypse I got an were used to sort of take their gaming, mentality into the real world through social media play forms and kind of fuck with reality. This is where you begin to have this momentum. It said the crystal fascist, Omby brigade, the independence you, would have investigators, the army of unfavourable hate, nerds coalescing to create and maintain division at the behest of the Eric and our garden in the name of globally malignant late stage, capitalism, and it's all on purpose. Appropriation of language, creation of ideas, neutering the fragmented left, which is not that hard to do

and the others conversation your touches on this stuff And also you know, hopefully we'll see workers would now naomi. I you know I I like having my head for this stuff is something this kind of stop that Necessarily politics per se, but just an assessment of what we're up against. I guess politically, but also just in terms of climate in terms of shameless fascism, masking the appetite of big business and somehow, where I left to just sort of adapt- die or or or see what happens. I dont want above anybody out. I'm at largo, in los angeles next Wednesday september. Six, then I'll be doing five shows at helium in saint Louis september, fourteen through sixteenth I'll, be at the vegas las vegas, wise guys on september, twenty second and twenty,

third for four shows and then bellingham washington, albeit the amount. Your theatre for one show on Saturday october. Fourteen this part of the bellingham exit festival, engaddi devotee of pod, dot com, so ass to her for tickets, I can live it up. I I can get you back in the loop of you know the ukrainian refrigerator repair drama after what I talked about on Monday, where there were screaming and yelling and seemingly yeah angry defeat in terms my refrigerator. Much of it, my fault, It turns out, after months and months of going back and forth with Alex who, as I say, before has been doing. I the the fridge, rater repair biz for eighteen years and said I'll quote again, I ask: spock you refrigerator. Aids is fun, refrigerator after he broke the hinge pudding

door, the freezer back on sending small ball bearings. All over my house, which the cats are enjoying finding. So I text at him because I said babo- try and picture because he's a get a new front, getting new fucking refrigerator. marguerite sherry's like ilo. I can order the hinge. You decide very aggressive. I told my order the hinge and then I'd texture. So let me know when you can put the hinge answer I can use my freezer if you're tired of dealing with the fridge. I understand I screwed up with the valve it's there now, but it's okay. If you don't want to fix it any more, I just want the door to the freezer to work. I've given up, but all throughout the sing. This guy Alex, was determined to fix this. And he said- don't worry- I will finish- hinges come tomorrow, takes me tomorrow for appointment. So this is ongoing and I feel like the

The ukrainian rage that was shared between father and son last week is settled. and I am maybe he's put it into perspective, but I really think he can't right there's something in the sky. That's not gonna. Let him walk away from this fruit and I was I need to buy a new one, I'm like well fuck it it's just garbage, but, like you know, if he's on board man, I'm on board too we're in this together. I think we can fix this refrigerator just in time for it to crap out entirely and be on fixable. That's that's the way I roll used to be the way rolled with cars. Just drive that thing keep maintaining it dont money into it and maybe one last time for a lot of money only for it to crap out a month later. That's I I dunno who you are. Are you guys? So you know relax, don't freak out. You know, take some brats and listen to me. Talk to Jeff charlotte

Book again is called the undertow scenes from a slow civil war to available wherever you get books, and you know that a sobering chat. living california I'll take anyway, I'm care for floods, I'll, take the water, we could take a well for me living in vermont, different yeah, Ass. We go years without water. Here we go years, Jeanne planets die. I have a right. Extreme through my basement, so while the different, the unintentional intentional, but has been there a long long time, and you know it's just like it's gone back, we have is like go it's kind of french drain. You know dieting, so I was part of remorse town called norwich about half way up the

connecticut, regret yeah, I kind of remembered norwich. I do I paid my dues and in that region I like vermont. How long have you lived there? I went up there for to to teach yeah two thousand and ten, so great right, yeah yeah, I mean it's remote, remote, clear I it is it is. It is lovely and his beautiful and is as a blue, but Maria away here and the sense, but in others this pros and cons in those bubbles. that is a bubble of chaos here. This is an ever expanding bubble that that it has its hard to make sense of l ably yeah, but it but delusional bubble. I ass a thing wetware, where lots of liberal lefty folksy a sort of don't nest. Fairly, see! What's going on origin! Imagine things about the rest! The country

in norwich vermont, it's funny because it's a real you know it's a super liberal town sure it is, is next to a college, town and- and everyone imagines it, but you go. I go five miles in one direction and there is a confederate flag. Sure there's a as rambo with a big machine and flag all black flag, which is a no surrender flag, shirt mean all kinds of don't tread on me. In people understand that burma is I've, never minimal, get reliable data on this. I think it is the second or third best armed state in the nation, india- and we know the- why me I think that the same with a lot of booze cities, you I've been working on a bit that I do occasionally about how our something about these. These were all too often these blue cities, the blue city. Ever it was just the its historic front of a fascist state. That's good! That's it yes, That's it and I m going to tell you I traveled around with this book, because I'm

in vienna in an but like the most I'm gonna, say conservative. but the most naive audiences forever since I've encountered where new york city ma and those are. The folks was interesting I get pan international, which is like you know the big sort of writing with its the big sort of like protect there is no and his errand and an economic pen and his people What do you think about Joe mansion? Can he like bring us together and that's a question I wouldn't hear in any other part of the country cause? They know that's delusional, but new york rightly so protected, and I remember those one guy I have pretty prominent leftists will not going to name, he says. Well, I mean come on, let's be serious, nobody has guns pointed at them and, like first of all, you didn't read the book cause. Happen then also every transport, america at gunpoint. Absolutely and it's it spreading bt at the spectrum of of people who were in the cites is spreading and- and I think

You know in in reading the book which I did and and having. I believe I read that and we, but it would have been a while ago, but this is about that you ve been on for four years, which is what I was thinking about it because I was talking or even time on air america two thousand feet. yo daily, almost using the word Christo, fascist and- and I think I don't I know- hedges was you know openly using more crystal fascist. I feel if you were a little reluctant to use the word fascist for awhile now back in the day, not to twenty seventeen yeah, and I, as I write about and there's like a little footnote in the book, I was wrong. I think I had like a chapter called the f word, and the f word, of course, is fascism bright. I'm talking about this right wing, the group that doesn't national prayer breakfast-

after world war, two they actually record recruited nazi war criminals and still, I said, look there's more than one kind of bad under the sun: yeah they're, not fascists than trump, and twenty fifteen comes down that golden. Greater and you see him he's bringing a fascist, aesthetic and the question is: will it be see right away, was you right away all the photography? You know this that the other thing to speak, to like new yorkers and and and that question is that there is a generation of people that still take get their news, pretty old school so you're there, just keeping up with politics from MSNBC or from the times and use the internet for the most part alludes elemental laid their brains from. I wish you D, have because someone showed them a thing right, yeah so oh there's theirs. I guess in ignorance to that, but it's it's generational. Well,

I would not dunno of generation. I was just actually I'm know, there's the one I would say: in general, older folks- are more comfortable. My experience of just traveling arena. You write a book and I spent a lot of time with fascist and then I go and I try and sell the book to people who are concerned how fascists and and and their folks a more comfortable with the term and then I'm thinking of like a guy. younger than me audio new york times, are porter senior politics important. We do in this book event together beer, it turns out the doesn't like the book which Fine, although like, why is he doing the event, but he is comes right enemies. Like you know, I don't. I dont think you need to use words like fascism and racism. any claims in incorrectly with the new york times doesn't because they do, but he doesn't and and try and push him what we're? Ok, that's fine! I'm an I use it historically and we can talk about like what its fascism. You know the thing on fashion

but are you to call him and you don't like fascism and am I know I call a cult of personality with an open and explicit reverence for violence as a redeeming force and a purifying nationalist myth that fast and it's not nineteen thirty six fascism- and this is the fascist state. This is a fascist movement. Twenty twenty three oranges right It's shameless. I mean there. It comes to a point where you know I was. I was also talking about this in terms of Jews. You know who, as an ex girlfriend of mine, put it right when trump got away. And I started freaking out my I needed to get my passport renew cause, I was a jew and, and I don't think you're not you're the first on the list- and am I that's probably true, but we're pride for this. This is also a sort of like one. I think- and I am saying this area somewhere liberal lefty- I don't know but like one of the delusions of liberalism and especially of white liberals is, if I feels

Oh sorry, for mere wherever they imagine on the front line like you, you're standing behind them rare and it's true. They are going to take the first bullet, but then we're seeing that, especially with like queer conservative yeah, who are stunned. That the anti trans movement turns out to be an altogether anti queer, Well, I think that the evolution- and I mean you hinder about it in the book, but it's not the central in that this sort of evolution of what their other ring right and then when does that become homicidal, is when you get the word woke rights anybody woke. You isn't like. A spectre umbrella term, for people either are of the end. is that they see or or people who are aligned with them so that every this line drawn. That is a firing line after a certain point and one thing: in your book that I dont always feel is that you know them

and power in the will is- is close to being there. Yet this is way better, Also the great consolation like I I I go to where's woman, warned bobo rose to feign peter, probably your listen is no. With this grill called shooters, which is like hooters, the waitresses there we're gonna, oh god s in yet, and I go to, and I am having lunch, I'm having a block. Nine burger with this militia guy and he he's east a sort of a gentle nerd at the counter me on his arm, teeth and and everybody's got guns, everybody's got guns and- and you know he's talking about the civil war he says is coming. Everyone says a civil war is coming and and they're going to get out in the streets and- and binding is eating children and, unlike will wait a minute, so I went you get in the streets because it is our cannibalism happening what is in a year and he says when they come for our guns and that's actually kind of comforting here, because the eu,

government isn't coming for their guns and they never have yet an end, so you, but I think again. There is the bubble where people so to say or or the way that people can remember, like all those laker variations on Al Kader, that our wake you like, they just imagine that all militia manner fat, right, rime and first of all like to know what has to do with being shot right in second there. Not a lot of them are now but but the reality is it's not like civil war, a game of thrones or like what you saw in a movie, it's the sort of like many successions everywhere. It's no shasta county you're sure I California? I think that lady there are these. There is a way frame most of the domestic terrorism as especially the weights, framed by the right as as the battles in in what is

civil war. It was that I mean it's way: costs slow civil war like like this things. What it what's really instinct me whenever you hear a new story about somebody who's mind, been infected by cuban on the actual, their whole family, and then there's been a few of those at this point, those a horrible those are casualties of the slow civil war. It is a chapter in the book, take the awkward as kunal thing, and it's this woman who made no national news, barely made local news. I just sort of stumbled awkwardly upon her evelyn in austin, texas, lefty kind of hipster I went down the rabbit hole and becomes convinced that for donald trump she has to go and attack the cabal and starts ramming her little red fiero into other people's cars via terrifies her, but no one gets physically badly hurt, but a lot of people are terrified. Her life is now ruined and people say. Why do you care about her, because she was someone who was deluded and, and that didn't make any news even like going to the police report you couldn't

local news. You couldn't tell this winter and analyze eating out of some crazy person, and then you like, oh no this? Is another war upon and is little evelyn's where I have neighbors were evelyn, but I do think it's interesting just through the vat support or how many of his sight certain type of ungrounded, lefties guts, through it the left or right side. I think of it. We eating away like let me bring a world of pain on pon upon myself and called the tea beside you, no matter how you be journalists who are really really here. You have, we had acted fears get long time and you know has at like a lot of folks has sort of bill on that credibility. Roy kennedy, junior man. You know I think I was urine year

A veteran, I think you may remember, agree with everything I was on his show one once punishment. Now I see him as dangerous in so many ways, not least of which this would work. Weird flirtation with anti semitism, which again, like the Jews, are forth, but. fourth, is getting closer to the front for sure. Is but yeah I mean it, and also the the brain is, is a lot softer and eat. You know look softer in terms of its ability to protect itself from bullshit, then I might have thought You know, and as we all kind of move through our own bits of bullshit, they keep us. alive and well by lack of critical thinking and there's something you did that I thought was great in the book. It's very personal book, for you, yeah yeah, because you know I saw a lot of you in there there's a lot of beautiful. Almost poetic writing in there that there there are moments. of you reacting to you, know America, even

as it is now in a sort of way, that's that's a little sentimental and sad and and and and and hopeful and a sort of way the because you ve been on this beat for so long in. I think the family was a huge book about that. That group. That was a most we, what a bush to everything with still round my hands, but right, This is my. I don't do political predictions, but my one claim depressions yeah I did. I did this book called the family about this there, they all ist and once upon a time, arguably most influential kind of christian nationalist organization and go back to nineteen thirty five and they were founded with this idea that the new deal was

satanic socialism, just like the rhetoric we hear today and god gives them this message- that the christian has been getting a wrong by focusing on the down and out. Instead, we should focus on those whom they called the up and out the elites, and if you can convert them, you get this kind of trickle down religion. So I did this book and it tanked yeah, absolutely tanked so badly that, like wall street journals, they're like oh, they want to cut him a great and I'm like. No, it's a publishing industry guy and he wants to do story on what happens when everything goes wrong with the book wow and oh, that was it and I would sort of declared kind of a conspiracy theories. This couldn't be real, I'm like, but it's here document the archiving there see a and then a number of congressmen and politicians get caught having affairs, and this is kind of the level of understanding that the political press in america has really

it's really averse to kind of systemic critiques yeah, but a naughty man with his pants down. Now we're talking yeah, and so I did this other book called c street with a sort of a follow up to that, and the one thing is at the end of the book, I'd written about one guy gunning mark sanford, who was once presidential contender well yeah that guy with the the what did he did, he have a south american experience or well yeah. He he he he disappeared and his people said he was hiking on the appalachian trail right right. Yeah am he was sort of a and an randy and mystic atlas hugged you know, bible running, so that guy's day what state was south carolina. So I say I Sanford's out, but maybe in twenty sixteen it'll be a little known, indiana congressmen back bencher, nay mike pence, who makes it the way I swear. I got it wrong. Obviously, Do you know you see he was there sure, and I dont think that he's a send it, and I think actually that I actually thought that that kind of christian nationalism would

be that as part of my resistance, the and the word fascist, because I thought america wooden switch out, Jesus would get in the way he couldn't have a human cult of personality, and so that's what I mean when try so the varieties like I planned myself as a demand figure. Will you accept that? But that. I was incredible turn that give even juggle community did in say, that, like sometimes god chooses these flawed messengers of these. We I mean that wisdom, the illustration: gods, ass candidate was best seller about treasure. It's like you know. We, who are we to question god, where you know, he's got so this is his guy none. Who are we to question him, but look at the proof you can tell this guy's divine yeah, you know because you re so married well, there is part of that.

The ego he quite right, but also he's so I hate the word for the eyes- are flawed, he's a smack, but he so broken in so many ways right. If he is in power, that's almost proof that a logical proof, if such a ridiculous figure and the power? That's obviously got to be god's hand, and that's one of the things I think people don't understand. That's evangelicals right yet, but you know most of the people encountering this book actually babis big part of it. Most of them aren't churchgoers. No christian nationalists aren't churchgoers they're they're, angry people Oh, that feel pushed aside for one reason or another right yeah yeah, I mean that's, I feel like yes, but I feel, like I think my view and you may differ- is that I think, is to tempting

I'm weary of that narrative because it's seductive to blue bubble, liberals and sending like it's part of the mythic like. Oh you know what and who's going to save us young voters so like this idea that you know what these folks are going to, asia or america is going to diversify. So like one of the american contributions right, I go to this. I'm going to these rallies and I'm like looking around, I got this rallies half people of color this one rally in Sacramento. Most of the speakers were people of color and it's, I think, one of the things that it there's a a story named anthea butler is great. Like slim book, if you like, I won't understand this christian nationalism stuff. I want to read too much. This is your perfect book. It's called white evangelical racism and she was before this a historian of the black church and says she's paying attention to conservatism there and she calls it the promise of whiteness right right. This idea that

instead of this sort of the american solution to they can't take the german ral right. My already too diverse we can't and to your light right here. So we have to say anybody can be in the whiteness in whiteness, yeah, so you're saying finally the sort of mythological fictions of american culture in actual politics and religion, and now a certain amount of of of strange. virtual paranoia has come together into this into this racist movement. I mean I mean this book, really is- is about the the fascism the tap he's being fundamentally about whiteness, I mean throughout the book, but witnessed it that they can draw and more reliable, yes, you're right, I mean I imagine the area idea that Hitler had, least at the beginning when he needed boots on the ground. I had a little wig over, not producer or or organ

I mean sure all these nationalisms are you know, there's no such thing as an italian right yeah and you go back far enough. People would have found that absurd. What do I have to do with someone from there or varying. Are you kidding I'm nothing like those other be right, and so it's always is creation of of this myth, and you know to go back to beginning piercing like Jews and fourth place right in one of the things it was fascinating to me is how quickly the all you need is an other and that can mutate rapidly. So trump comes in asked muslims It's not so central. Now, right now, mexicans next mexicans. Now then he's done, journalists really actually paid is really good. You got all that was interesting in the book that the way you characterized in that one chapter were deserted. The pen where the journalist was or are you going, you, after you realize, and they know that they are going be the brunt of what whatever trump is going to dish its they show up to play

part in the passion play and we're doing it again. It's kind of there's that I think the coverage this time is a little better. But it's astonishing to me how many journalists are just sort of stepping up and speculating. You know dude playing the same kind of horse race stuff like this new york times. Guy refuses to use the word, fascist and and and scolds other, and refuses only to use it but to learn the history of it and I think it has to do with and he is like. You says, personal book to me. It's a you know the thing that's not present there. There was once a chapter about coven the pandemic in our book yeah, and then I started

take it out for all sorts of reasons, but I wanted it to be that's kind of the undertone the current and that's this massive grief that is unacknowledged over the hurdles and to to rage. That is all sorts of loss for these people they're, not wrong that we're living in an age of loss right, it's it, but it's it. But, but what I have noticed is that its, I o a lack of willingness to admit a cross, cultural ptsd right here that the EU has all the implications of any others where we had a collective trauma and how anybody wants to deal with that, whether it's like ie, no anti baxter's or vaccines. The idea that we want three years of productivity and millions of people I mean has an impact all across how you'll any

one person who comes from an anti vax family and they lost a couple of people that covered how they justify that, whether it's gods or whatever, as a human being you're, still dealing with the the grief and the pain of loss and and the loss. Also like will we step up to the moment? No, we won't you're way, what I always felt we might one assessment of things and what you sort of deal within this book in I've talked about it on several comedy. Specials is at its very difficult, sort of think that any sense will come to people that you believe that what's happening in the worst of ways, whether its environmental or or or disease or or that the world ending is a deliverance, so these p in the family to that. You have bilbil policy around that fear, but there's plenty of people in this book and in its a thread through it. I think that that These are the and times and we ve been waiting for them on some level, so there's that we're

mixture of like we want this fascism, but you know gods gonna, Do us all in anyways what there is something like the great awakening is this thing is this couple great awakenings in american life, and now people say this is another one. The first one is Jonathan Edwards dry and nord hampton who you know, is very important actually too, Eric and revolution, which had a lot of kind of even wasn't call even juggle them, but even jellicoe sort of overlap? As I d of wait a minute, net radical protestant money, no mediation, no priests, no kings, I'm going to run things and that's what this really appealing narrative, oh freedom, the spirit of seventeen, seventy six, which, for so many of these folks, has sort of replaced the holy ghost as the father, the son and the spirit of seventeen. Seventy six, except that, of course, it's blinds us to the ways like whoa,

actually are. You know. I drove the obvious thing that responds to libertarians. I drove here on roads, and now we ve got this nice electric grid. We don't know how to do get. Someone does here and in the way, We are very, very internet connect handed her and- and I think so, there's that end times fascination, but this also, this utopian I'd idea is one preacher. David straightened, uber city, California, is like in the and set in the beginning, which has seventeen seventy six it's not the biblical times men lived like kings, free on the land, getting their own food, your dependent on no one. This is a utopian fantasy right. This is, and I think, which a sort of another sort of wake. I I feel like I'm just bashing the bubble, but like people, these are utopians there's so much language. I think the left thinks that we own and it's politically neutral- it's a movement, it's a social movement

it's not that I don't like it. It's a bad one yeah, but it is a movement and they are utopians like how can they be utopians they believe in this hateful world and they believe that this world of loving community they're experiencing this as love and then, of course, there's the denialist there's the ones who are like looking forward to this, but I think about coal rollers. You know cold rowers, those trucks where you you you, you rig up your pipe, so it like spews extra yeah, yeah, yeah, carne, yeah, and and what does he call rollers? I think of that kind of grief and denial like they're experiencing climate change everyone's experiencing it they're saying it's not real right yeah. They used to be this thing. I think in the nineteen twenties was called the yiddish anarchist ball. You know all these american jews are all anarchists and communists, and so on, and the anarchists of course, atheists and so on and on yom kippur. They would roast a pig, yeah and they'd feast this the day you're supposed to fast year,

the non Jews out there- and am you know this is not eighty ism. This is see how much I don't believe in you hear the coal roller the eyes like. If you really don't believe in climate change, you not call rowing, This is like see how much I don't except the fires around me. The floods around me see how much I don't accept the I am losing thinks I'm good now, then what do you see that, as a will to power, I think there's people who recognise that sentiment and people that broken her innocent people as very valuable clay. Ok, so it's a nihilistic fuck! You too sorted! in power, the hopeless yeah yeah, but it's also it's it's grief it. You know away too and it is like if you ve ever lost someone ray, and you know many people drink too much after

someone they were named. People thought the wrong person here. Somebody, thereby right. I do think that's a little bit of how the pandemic accelerated watch. What was a fascist movement and has made it more powerful. Now is there's a lot of people who are expressing their grief, all the wrong ways and- and I dont want to let them off the her glad. This is not well yeah because, like you know, you're you cause they are. They are too. I mean you know that absolutely they have pain but they're. Passing it on and right, but you there doubling down on their anger. You know when you apply contemporary psychological models of trauma too what you're seeing is the problem a unfortunate

it doesn't mean that it will be received as such and that there's any way for these people to process it properly. No, I think it I. I think this is the other question. I yeah you always get a book event where how do we speak reason to these people and and well? First, Well, I'm jewish among evangelical. I dont evangelize. I you know I do believe in organizing we negotiate we're diplomatic well, actually, we ve been organizing like, but I think there's also this sense that these beliefs aren't sincerely held in the way I kind of frame this now How is their beliefs yeah their own lives and they ve been writing about the right I always kind of which always fascinates me is I mean partly and politically motivated, but also to me just like what is it like to live? And you know it's like owing to evil knowing it. What is it like to live in a world where you this makes saddle?

yeah. It's also like sydney pollack, said: Michael Clayton. People were fuckin incomprehensible, so You know, so you just thing in every working that movie, I haven't seen it since it wasn't a theatre, well. I like the idea that you don't feel like there's a deep commitment, that it is a reaction and, and that doesn't imply that you can fix it, but it implies no. No, no, no, it's not that that comes deep, just because it's not set so the little anecdote in the beginning in

Talk to you years ago, his book killing the buddha were traveling around and we were talking a person and gone in and shot up a church in hendersonville, north carolina and and and my writing partner- and I got there day after year trying to understand this and thank god the gun was filled with blanks, but think again of the error that it should it instilled. And so we go to see the sheriff and the local sheriff and he did not like us at all. So we're sitting there and we're just like young writers, and we don't know anything and he says sneering as he opens his drawer and he pulls out and points a gun at us, yeah and- and you know just about peter pan right and it's a absolutely realistic toy gun. We're not address the toy here. If you had pointed at me, I would a shot you and that's just to show you.

Things that are real can still hurt you. So it's a reaction right, but it becomes real. The things that Cuba on isn't real, but it can still hurt you the delusions of trump. Are we ilk- but it doesn't matter to the person on the other end of the gun and they believe it so sincerely. So I was going to say like the example, my kid from whom this book is and my elder child, as in my two kids, but my elder child who's been a trans kid struggling with a lot of mental illness, and so on are very aware of the news here, terrified of the news it's sort of like how do I find not cheap grace but hope for them their school and a very liberal area? Is we don't? I dunno the staff the legal. Yes, as a group of families is trying to do now Jane. What do you want? They want this of all the kids who come wearing. You know closed.

I supposedly have the other gender like. Had he determined that you know pronouns, they want to attack all this stuff. So I think look. My kid is in real distress. These are neighbors a small town. Maybe if I just go to them, I don't know them. Maybe if I go to them and say I get fall into that trap. If you talk real t, shirt and and then look them up and their dartmouth college, grads and they're very educated, very successful here and I'm like oh these people, it's not that they don't understand what they're doing via. I can't go to them and say it would if they said well, you know what charlotte's trying to stop us from doing this. What if we just instead of fighting what if we knocked on his door and explain to him that transgender ism is a threat to the american people? Maybe we can talk, read know that talk, reason into me right. In that sense, I can't talk reason into them. That's where I think the simmer of civil war happens when instead of saying we are beyond the talking reason like this is a which side are you on kind of,

you have what will once tolerances removed from the democratic equation it's impossible to maintain. Yes, and I think there is both sides. This lay charlotte says he he, it won't tell her. No, I won't tolerate them trying to force my child out of school, and so they say I won't tolerate charlotte's child school, and I thought I was a threat. Alright, you kicking my kid at a school. These are not the same thing. It's a little bit like I unit you run into all these folks who like well, you know trains issues are call and saw an idea. I can always simplify them for them, because around the country now for people follow the stuff. You know virtually every weekend somewhere, there's a big pack of burly do oftentimes armed men with guns aside, a school library hospital bar inside you, some kids

You can say you think drag story, our stupid or whatever you want, but as a group of kids in there and there's a group of men with guns on either side which side are you on? This isn't complicated, save your new once in your questions for late, because we are at that moment right, but isn't at the moment, also where that, whether they're from dartmouth or not, that there that you can add after a certain point, not call them fascists. Oh no, I don't know. I call a general right right, oh that well, that's the other templates and they're, not fascists. They went to a good college yea right, but this is like what is the functioning G. O p now is a is a shameless fascist movement and he until the the language I don't think People know what it means they could call. I mean I am very much at all.

It's on dec purse show there's something from the nineteen thirties called the popular front, and this is where the american communist party said. You know eventually comes around to sort of say, like look, we don't like fdr, yet you know we're way to the left to him, but we got it. We all gotta work together here, right and- and I think it's a popular front moment so like if you want to call it authoritarianism or and or if you like, a republican, never trump or with whom I disagree on most things, PF, that's fine! I do think there is value like I'm, not gonna evangelize. By do think. There is value to sorta, saying, let's learn about the word fascism and how it changes and the confusion between this is not like nazi germany. No, it's not, and that was a fascist regime in power. This is a fascist movement trying to take power right and not as bad yeah yeah. He had still a little bit of hope there, but combined with climate, also, really literally potentially world, ending in a way that yeah hitler never was yet

and you know, and its it yeah one supports the other. I mean you It will want to take over the world, but by if he, if this plays out the way it could- then, though, being no awareness or no carrying, because the imagine that if a fascist regime too power. Here the machinery of capitalism is just going to be unregulated, entirely in and serving the nation, unlike our current, well regular it system, but it is in this way then lefties say, but it's so fucked up now, and am I yes, it is, but the folks who imagine well this the other response is well. You know if you're, a young black man right we're dealing with caught you already living in that experience every day, and so I go now wait

I suggest can discover and well know, I'm going to say it could get a lot worse, and I think this is kind of the privilege that we have of not living in a way most of us unless we come from somewhere else. He had not experienced a war where you know. Look at ukraine get a lot worse. The threat is not malicious, marching that sort of ridiculous iai the threat, it's a senior military commanders said, is division in the military down in the chain of command bright and all these little fringe, guys like that eyes. I meet all over the country who have each one has a little different conspiracy, theory of their own and so isolated, but suddenly it's there the base, for sure. All you need is like you for more michael flints. We, for more michael flynn's. But what was interesting, report on the military long time to is that the military historically has been really good at keeping crackpots

in writing they gear. Michael. Will it didn't matter if you believe in you know, astrology. If you get the jeeps there, time. Yet it doesn't matter right, and the conspiracy theories were built around this central question of the commander in chief here that the chain of command and right that changes things so that you see and senior military officer saying good. The military is not as monolithic as people think it is. Why are ready seeing these like little simmering not in these illegal terms, but you know the way national guard commander here. I think seven states refuse to abide by the vaccination rice. Well, so Biden could it said I and a crack down right. I think very wisely. He didn't you know like. Let's not I'm, not like one of those people who draw a line here.

Yeah and then people say well, what does that mean? You don't think we should indict trump no, but you do need to recognize that each thing has it's own power. It has it's own power and the next thing We, like the last thing, there's no january six when they arrest trump, so I guess it's over they will never. I don't think they'll ever be another january six, because that movement is all these folks and I'm visiting. I met so many january six, as they'd all been visited by the f b. I fear many of them thought I must be the f b I and there it was a little bit one of their sort of fuck use. Like I don't care I'll talk to you yeah. I invites me into his house this with an arsenal of guns, ammo body armor easily,

we have a militia? He says the guy. I can take pictures of the guns in his cats. Like you, a hat lover here for cats, yeah like you and me he's jewish or so he says you're, not really, but he's you know like one of these as his thing like I'm one of the chosen, yeah and and yeah I take pics of the guns. These are the legal ones and so on yeah. This guy is not the militia they're going to march. This guy is the guy that is there, who is sort of the fabric. The added is ready for somebody to explain and and someone to exploit exploit. Yet a diplomatic word for kill. Oh No, no! No! I mean for for for a caesar, a recruiter he's a guy with boots on the ground, to spread the word yeah yeah yeah and tend to make more everybody to to normalize the idea.

saw a headline a p headline the other day about this. Georgia can speak via georgia indictment trump and his allies allies, not allies. Here as a political term, they're, not allies. They are accused co, conspirators right, but there's that normalization and and that expansion of this power and this liberation of these folks that you know the other thing I think about is like you know, you're talking about conspiracy theories and I know you've thought a lot about the accuracy theories. It feels very liberating to give yourself over to conspiracy theory well with yeah, and that's what I wanted to talk to you about in terms of your explorations of religion in general and some of the through lines of this book. Now I thought that it was very. Trusting the way you book ended this book, the chapters at the beginning. In the end, you open with a fairly lengthy exe. Iteration in history of sydney, poitier sort of widening harry.

fine day and an party. I I'm sorry, I don't find it today. There is a scene where they go to mississippi together by a momentary health. Anti american buddy is sort of the arc of Harry billow fantasies activism, his his blackness. His is his anger. at an end and how that impacted culture and in how he maintained a certain you know radical and black spirit in the face of of white culture, and he made choices in his life, to maintain that, despite culture and in spite of opportunity he may have had himself, and this is You chose to open this book that unfolds, as an exploration of the evolution of white racism and then you, and you talk about Lee haze there, the foe, musician, who was in the weavers with pete's eager who wrote if I have a hammer- and you talked about that very specific event in words at peace,

sleep picks gonna skill york, where weavers, who had been identified as either commune your communist sympathisers or the voice of communism or socialism in america, and they were to play there and in I didn't know about that event, but it came a bloody fuckin mess that me. You know they. They went the first night, a few small mob and then the neck night when they rescheduled it was a huge amount that including military people am I a thousand of the use of air power for helicopters and the new york state police, helping the rioters were trying to kill pete's, eager witty guthrie and, most of all, for the transgression of being a black communist, Paul robes and beyond forgotten, but its superstar of his time. The elder russia, loving negro baritone, says the ankle paper and they they try to kill them, line of that story, die organised around Lee haze. Was this big towering guy from Arkansas pete's eager sir writing partner yet mean even

not my music, but but also was my music as a kid in elementary school thing. If I had had no on top of wolves- wookiee yeah my dad loved pete Seeger, you saying all those songs and their stripped down their sanded dounia removed over right to discover that they have this radical core. This radical measures asian lee haze, big guy. He wasn't a brave man where peace eager goes and testifies before the I was on american a fairy and easily ideas has prepared a song from each rightwing, congressman's district and they say what is in a police will have a song for you. Here we was broken. He was broken, he was destroyed by these prosecutions and in the same way, I think of we're reading now about Ruby freeman of the the elections worker in georgia, who trump targeted just an ordinary person who has been in hiding since is afraid to go out. We never went out.

But he had this in writing his memoirs and pig skill and remembering new had been killed by this mob. It goes back even further to this moment an arc, I saw where he's from and arriving around with these labor organizers, black and white, which is a big crime at the time and there's a carload of gun thugs. I you know these aren't, isn't the klan. This is just from the company via coming after them and they're singing and they're terrified, and they start singing a you know: they've got their radical labor songs, then they're all they all grow up in the church,

and they start singing hymns and he's got this line, and it's the last I'll give it away is the last line of the book cause it was the worst first line is like how do I get there because that's the line I need to write from my kid was for a while. It was possible not to be scared even for a while as possible, not to be scared. Even the hope is not don't worry it's going to be okay and the hope is not in the language of safe spaces. We're going to make cespedes, I think, of another arkansas organizer, suzanne farm, legendary, queer rural organizer and she's organizing with his inches living in queer commune with all these women, and I think it's a seven, Rabies here and women straight women start playing their violent partners and the violent partners come after and say aunt em over and suzanne. Far and her friends say no, they stay in the ground and you know this is. This is a different kind of thing,

and this is not. There may have been guns. I dunno. They said no, and- and I remember suzanne was telling this to Me- and a young activists in the young activists that so wonderful- you made a safe space and suzanne Farr who, for all her radicalism, is like a just a a like my southern, my granny was from tennessee via. She is oh honey. There are no fuckin safe spaces that that fit the hope of this reason, as there's there's no fucking spaces, but this the safe moments we can make in a four depending on that static energy or depending on, like young voters, just fixing things for years now. This is that the hope

To begin with that, and I wanted to have like expand the radical imagination. But if I comment that, with like a straight up organizer and the didactic way, people going to say no but coming up with a song that, as as mister b harry belafonte, yes Deyo, the banana boat, which he understood as daylight common me want to go home. It's a work song at the I sang fuck, the boss, the song come mister, tally. Man tally me banana, that's the guy It was deciding how much he gets paid harry. Who was radical and we just lost him and ninety six people get upset. When I say Harry was angry to the end of his days. What do you mean? I mean he was choice too, but he was angry here in the struggle as long. This is the hope trump

wants us to believe that there's a storm coming, the cataclysm is now and either we will win or we lose. This is climate change too right here we don't do something now we're going to die while a lot of us are gonna die and then the next day and then the next day the struggle is long. So that's where it begins. That's the hope. Both those guys Harry, belafonte and Lee Hayes were both defeated right. How was that the hope right? Where we'll here we still are yeah we're defeated? This is not going to be decided. Tomorrow is not going to decide in twenty twenty four, even if trump wins, which I think is a pretty strong possibility here and if we go through a period of fascism, which I think we will you do you think that I do I do. I am not positive. I think that you know one of the things I one of the central lies of fascism is inevitability, beer and that's where we get.

I read a lot about movies in the book to Israel. Thinking about the stories by which we make this is why I reject the term crisis. No climate crisis, no crisis of democracy right by the crisis is like and then the end right. But this Gonna happen right, it's not, you know either will stop climate change. And the glaciers come back or wall incinerate. We had another, those that we could a who incinerate. When you have, we not get the glaciers back right right. Fascism is gonna, come I think we I mean we're already in a lot of parts of the country there. I would say. florida is a mild fascist state, shirt, now, texas, close texas, texas, close right and an individual counties. Oliver yeah, I mean this parts of the northeast kingdom in Vermont that are viewed as a region vermont that are that are already there

Local officials is a million little trumps here and it's a global movement right. There are plenty of other places and then what hate? Like you said you are getting your passport ready to go where where to go, where ray, and actually this is the first time that I am actually twenty. Sixteen, I thought. Oh that's, ridiculous, you're not going anywhere it's hard, not you mark yeah, it's hard to go other places and twenty twenties same this time. I get my, already papers in order yeah. I do think this. I think people are paying attention. Been so numbed to the awfulness of the rhetoric Understandably, most people want to live their lives and are weird fascinated me, I am we don't notice, it is changing and trump has. The trump rhetoric has gotten far more means that one of the themes of the book is at this stage is the first campaign was like the prosperity gospel we'll get rich, god want to get rid of it,

what trump, once you get rich like him, twenty twenty was acumen on gospel, bastardize, american us, not the gospel, conspiracies dark. With january six, we enter the age of martyrs ways. Historical fascism calls the blood We and trump had been trying to drum that up I'll go to these values in here. say the names of people killed by undocumented folks here, a good number of part of the crowd knew them, but they just needed that official licence of actually babbitt killed on you your he a there and she's, not the forever martyr she's, a sort of like holding a spot chrome spin around it happening right. You spend a lot of time with her in the book in talking about is the book the book, as can be a very different book until january six, and like I see anything, you could see the final piece of this propaganda puzzle or the myth puzzle of what you see is this thing got. It not before the final piece of securing peace and were not there yet, but the martyr pieces, the peace before,

the killing of the other yeah yeah. I mean you know. We see like little pop pop pop peer, indifferent So in talking to you about this typically now you enter this book. Believing that year, whether its there's there's no end to it, but there is a change and that your fascism is equally, so you begin them this book in that mindset and an so what it seems like you set out to do, which yoga has it's moments of beauty and an empathy for you. The people in this movement in a way is, is kind of show people what is happening throughout the country in smaller pockets and larger pockets. Ah, you know in the, As you know, we are from the flags in local governments a little bit, but it used to be the through is really about these rallies, whether their religious, rallies or or

or smaller churches and the people that have certain flags services is sort of what I would say like yeah at first I was like well now, that's like the the first. You know The campaigns are twenty. Sixteen twenty twenty I wanted to sort of. Originally the book was going to be just sort of you know an episodic history of that decade and really yeah, and on anyone wanting to yeah, I saw the idea, the book and twenty, teen yeah, and I and then I after january, six and throughout a lot of stuff yeah that I was going include in it and then I just started sort of wandering around but you're right, those become. You know these little militia churches, a lot of sort of many mega churches means a mega. Churches now have not figure tat. We were actually have their own. You know Wednesday night is women's night. You know thursday night his youth night tuesday. His new militia recruit night. This is uber city, california, omaha nebraska I went to

that means. A heavy seen. That's where you in the parking lot in omaha. That's this weirdly! That's the scariest thing. I think that has happened to me in thirty years of journalism now been and worse places but I have never. in so fucking terrified I mean omaha. I go to the church of lord of house church and its a sort of a strip. Mall and- and I'm just Basically, it's sunday morning, I'm driving how'd you. How did you feel Did you have a map of, or you want to stop? I mean no not on this. I don't know how to do that. I'm not not a good report. In this sense, I'm gonna go and find the most important person. I've done some of that, but as other people soon really going to recount county chose around your people. not even ones like one hundred times like oh a detour. I guess we're going this way interesting. I got the jackpot nevada because of a fire and while you're going this way now, omaha Nebraska, I'm just sort of

went through and now I'm trying to get home and sunday morning, I'll go see. What's happened in this church, it's a strip mall and you have your choice of mega churches. All the big box stores a megachurch as I choose the one that looks like best buy each one is like, different store and pastor hank human presiding means nothing to our listeners, but he is bigger of like medium national prominence. A profit is on a show called flashpoint. The trump in various rightwing congressman go on a tear open pro civil war programming. Yeah people like not like this could happen not like what, if it happens, it's gonna happen not like that. Sorry we're going to kick ass. There go let's go when when when does when? Does it start that pastor hank? He gets the prophecies from god and he's a great pastor and it's interesting. The other thing people is odd here is this church is about third people of color, pastor, hanks, awake,

I he claims to preach like a black man to have learned in the black church year, and- and I will say I mean he's- not he's a good preacher- he's a good performer yeah at one point he identified myself a reporter and- and he starts preaching against reporters like it's like he's going to throw his bible- and you know, as I hope you are having a good time- and I am I mean the music is fantastic- is good and afterwards, oh, no, no talked him go out in the parking lot. I meet these three women who had seen inside and there also visitors they ve driven four hours to be there, so we just talking and it's like ninety degrees blacktop and lasting, and where did jackie I'm trying to respect the church, vs and two sweating

they're, sweating and they're. Telling me about the civil war is coming, and you know like it's, not even a question anymore. It's a civil war year ago and an usher and a gunman came and pastor hank had already preached. He said you know, psalm twenty three people know that you know thy rod and thy staff. They comfort me he would make fun of thy rod. Is that gun and when it does is, I didn't put it in the book and I wish I had. he does a hip thrust. They rod is thy dick and thy gun very plain, very plain about their rights and the gunman full tactical gear. It looks like a cop and right you're, not a cop, is part of the church, the force you usher, you can't talk here and with but were in public and there I just get stuck, and I know where to turn away. and since I had a heart attack and bowed never to get in those situations. Again. I just run away from conflict here, but I got my little mechanical pencil as like this, which most pathetic freudian thing ever like. I just bought a pencil,

clicking, the aids and the weather dropping in you brought a gun, and it's just getting I remember this because I I had never really understood this. I've always been like in situations where you know the kind of do to pushes his chest into you and this scary, but it's also bravado here, and it's also your clue that this is probably not someone who's going to hit you layer. I was going to hit you you don't put, they don't put their channel yet they show you the harness get. This guy is curling in here. Crowing around his chest is grinning, which is a sort of thing, this human instinct that we have, could be ever seen. Someone green when their angrier you hear bearing their teeth. Is I learned after the fact that it actually like his own? loser brain part of our brain. Like shit, this guy, they don't care, not a gun than the other guy. Yet it's like super cool- he loves this moment cause like yours, like they're, just stepping forward, and so you brought a man with a gun. And finally, the usher says: how do you know? I don't have a gun and I just turned around and I ran

I didn't actually draw the guns I could feel like this is the situation these people when I was younger I'd, say this is great they're going to hit me and the local cops arrest me asking make my book a bestseller right, but now I'm like I'm going to. I can feel my heart. I can feel my pulse, I'm very aware my pulse yeah, I had a go. I knew the undercurrent of the story, isn't carrying my step? Mother's ashes in the car is a little odd, but I retrieved them on the way. I don't want to go to jail and- and I ran- and I you know I've been in you know: I've been another country that had Real guns and bigger guns pointed at me and knives and baseball bats and so on, and this was scary. This has never happened, the thing about reporting on the right in america and I'm I'm a assist white.

Dude and ball that helps a non threatening year, and I look like you know, so: I'm able to go spaces, but even that people know I am would always say it's no accident. You came here to this church. This compound this. Whatever you know, they would try, and you know they were sure I was going to convert their, not interesting conversion in your journalist you're. On the other side, we kind of like say, yeah. We know you're the devil, but will spread our message through the can bring a gunman out as they get the fuck out of here. They are ready to go, and it's like here's, the here's the metaphor: I've come up with hadn't put in the book, but it's like you know now it's not on fire right, but if you ever like flick matches- and you can't like one here and how long every time a line of guys with guns is outside a library or they don't shoot where I met for a match and wood, and maybe they will enable us to say that is terrible,

next mass shooting by a fascist whose mic copying the manifest of the last one that one of these you know we're standing over a box of dynamite in flicking matches and say they haven't caught, there's nothing to worry about fear. This was a match. In you felt it yeah yeah yeah. So that's. Why was skill scary to me personally, the scary to my heart and elsewhere? That moment, when you say what it was like in the past, is that that the cops are probably in the church? Yeah

you. You know there was no yeah. I said I'm going to call the cops and they're like oh yeah go ahead. Please yeah. They know which side that the cops around there you know and- and you could always from there. I didn't put this book. I drove to Iowa- and I was meeting with another report- has been doing the same thing: yeah she's like yeah, it's different it used to be, you could go anywhere yeah I mean you could go up to straight up nazis yeah and in this book three times first proud boys swarm me. I get vouched for basically cause, I'm a white guy yeah I warned Barbara grill. This guy comes out, and I mean it's all the sort of acting performance, the manager, the time for me to go with his hand, either method. Radio or you know- he's got the and hovering over his side. Aria like like he's going to quickdraw, something is like it's time for you to go, and I am not afraid of guns. I'm a gun owner. I mean I'm afraid of guns in the way that we should be am a gun owner,

I live in his arms state right, I've seen guns on and they are at least four hundred million guns and civilian hands here and in other things, really I'm all hands on deck. But the lefties were like wealth, they're, not the only ones who have guns and I'm like yeah, but there are about three hundred seventy five million of them. So it's like forget it here: nobody wins a civil war, don't say: hey we're will meteorite and I never seen so many just out and part of it and even gentle churches as another church. I really loved in holiday city ohio. I love this guy. He was so great were in. It were talking together. Guy was putting a tat up, pastor, pete, yeah, yeah and then civil war we eat and fight because of pockets of fire. He has his pockets of fire spring up everywhere. You know and will become a forest fire. I don't know- and this is like in any other thing you're talking about in terms of the right-

innovation or the ignorance of of the left in regular people who just want to live their lives. Is that because the nature of technology. All these were community they're all relatively on the same page and they have their own tv show like you, just set out another chow and they have a big one there. So many lawyers in layers and layers of young and you talk about the rabbit holes at people go down and I like the whole sort of you, know modeling a in Iraq or the the reference to it and the gnostics and gnostic writing and how there is there there's not in either or theirs. Both here and in that of that is the thing become slippery in the human brain when you start to believe conspiracies is there's a line in the book that deal. I I underlined, which is that is great truth of our paranoia now, not knowing not needing to not knowing is its own dim dreaming certain.

so I guess you ve, had those moments were you're trying to have a logical conversation within q and a person or a person that believes in this spectrum that you discussed in the book and you do you. Do the opposite point to make your point that she be wrong and she goes exactly. Oh yeah, diane G and sunrise florida, yeah dying GI was great, is another I mean nobody's born a fashion. Try and everyone knows that still subscribe to this kind of essential ism and they still a man that they are immune, whether demographically or by their virtue here or or worst of all by their taste. and I remember I was- I gave a talk about this at the american psychiatric association.

Weird venue, but they want it right and all these like the this, you know this, the coolest most hipster urban psychiatry, yes, and one guy says like well. You know, I think, they're in the arts there's really a lot of resistance to this and there's stuff it just cannot be absorbed by fascism. You know, like I don't think like I, like, I think, of a queer artists like lil nas x, near where we can ask ashley babb of the central figure, but I know a lot about her if she was alive, I think she would love, will nasdaq and not to mention the fact and not so known, Ashley was queer in practice. If not in theory, she lived with her husband and their girlfriend yeah, and you know those lines are not as sharp. I think about another guy named George Reilly, who is a january six insurrectionist a mountain.

sacramento, and we were together watching a brawl between proud boys and antigua and george to georgia's great, the equally claims that he is a jewish for canadian, jewish iroquois, the hvac guy that guy yeah a character yeah and he goes into on january six wearing warpaint yeah. You know feathers in his hair and and his great grievances that the guy who has his boots on Nancy Pelosi's desk gets all the credit when it was george just because it wasn't a photograph or pulled down his pants and rubbed. ass on Nancy person's desk. He is getting credit in the legal system, but but you know he identifies himself. He says I'm like the guy in three hundred Zack snyder yeah gore fest the last one left alive to tell the tale I'm like richard. Ashley is the only one killed. Your all left alive here in europe-

won't shut up your hotel in the tail. It doesn't matter, but this is not george. Being stupid is not george being purely delusional. I mean I I come to think of it as a kind of lucid dreaming like the pleasure is in the both and of it that less and of it like. I know that reality and this reality here and their co existing and just the way that I've been fascinated by in a isn't this stuff for a long time, but actually sort of what I do as I do one book on one book off of work. That way like I cannot be with him anymore. He go do something very different, but I kept getting drawn back cause. I'm interested in people believe in magic right or yeah. They are to write or or the way so many people I met, think even musk is gonna save them. These are the right wingers near and if we can just when IRAN must for christ think of what we can do and then he can put souls.

and robots and european values are fantasy idea, but get but whether they he can do or not it. The matter is that you must use it is trying to do the right, but he's also vulnerable ideal. Quickly and wants to be part of the two big thing I think he's part of the left or right side too, and there's this whole thing. People like while he was always like this and he south african- is that nobody is born a fascist. He wasn't, I mean he's, the smoke, but it wasn't always like this. I mean we watched him, see over your. The art is formally what twitter we watch him in real time go from troll too, I think pretty. Arguably the elites fascist fellow traveller russia. He began as a troll and and moved and move I am, and that kind of lucid dreaming, but he's engaging in which await you're in unreality, but you feel you

some control yeah, that's at nasa, says m. If I, if I study the typos and trumps tweets and the numbers yes, yes, there are codes here to be determined and that's also liberating in the sort of we usually small de democratic sense, which is you know, Ulysses went to college or so, and they have access to. Everybody has access to libraries, less and less cause libraries are closing down. I work at college. I can go to the library and so on. These are folks like wait a minute. I can go the archive now you can't by the way suppose you just want to go to the archive, know what All kinds of archives- you have you wanna, go to that the national archives you're, yet you gotta, get to permeate, got explain what you doing that and now I just log on. Why, and I mean the archive we mark doing our own research except that that comes out of a liberal.

as idea did for a long time, do your nine right yeah. Do you own research, find out the history of the clan in america? Do your own research find out? You know, step by step until you get as you, two conspiracy right more than all, this leads to what you are talking about earlier, that this in all inclusiveness did is new whiteness idea that can incorporate everyone. it's a mythological concept, Nonetheless, there, be done away with they only serve to the building right eye We don't know the shape of the fascism he has possibly to come. It will not look well what has come before. So I dont know near the shape of it in an and how much room there would be within it for others how much those people can be

recast way, as we have seen. Certainly in some south american countries, which still sort of the fascist regimes, always sort of elevate white, over indigent eighty, but also incorporate all sorts of folks who otherwise would be white and in the same way that you know I reported from fascist regime. In you know I remember, reporting in uganda and and and they're still talking about soros and everything, and this was there, the so called kill the gays bill which they just passed, which was based on american stuff. Here I suggest idol bill and I'm talking the guy wrote it and he's talking about soros or something like whoa but like. Why are you so afraid of the Jews here in uganda, where whether really are any things like sources- jewish, you know he doesn't even know it, but that doesn't mean that that's not still an anti semitic me.

yeah, in the same way that trump in his first post indictment. Last indictment speech says at the end, I think I'm if I get a raise, is going to drive out the glow of the globus chase out the communists, and this is gospel, John gospel of Matthew, the money changers whoever wrote this beach, it might have been stephen miller, jewish guy double down on that anti semitic all lie, and you know this is this escalation, but it's it's the way that now, if you're an anti semite, you know it's like fan service, you know what that means. You know what a globalist is here if you're, not anti semite, even if you're right wing do what ll would they have anything to do with Jews just because it has for me now a thousand years that's been the rhetoric. This been use their right and the same thing with r K, posters

it was like this weird posts, and this I dont know could have been an accident fourteen and eighty eight or next each other, which is white supremacist language for the fourteen words of whiteness and eighty eight, the idiot, Ath of american fascism year, eight h to even explain it is just the grating. It just means hale hitler, It shows up now. Maybe he didn't mean it right. He let it right, you know, and it's a little bit it's more than what we think of his dog whistling is what it's doing is people who hate the globalist the hay the jew, whether they know it and it's a jew or not rise taken. That kind of the potency of that emphasis- myth and universal eyes did so what happens in the fascism to come? and included in whose not it's hard to know right, because a kind of that's a big. We should be frightened because that's a big weirdly, evolutionary leap, No, that's the velociraptors have learned how to open doors right so give

while there is, and given your what you obviously wrote this book, but you you know, you say he had a heart attack yeah. It was for the young tat I wrote. The last line of my previous book was literally push myself away from the table, and I think that in this last line- and I'm really and the book had begun two years before my father's heart attack, so our member on the table it was, I was on the table during trumps. Second debate with Hillary Clinton here, and so I was actually put up to a machine where this is the one where he is, being around toxic orange clouds, like it actually seem my going here, the nurse. I say my wife has a trumpet like so many nurses. That's a whole other story. There trump nurse connection and watching it and so on, but I remember just sort of thinking. Can I get through this book begins with a heart attack ends with a heart attack, what gives you don't get symmetry like that often, but in terms of like,

your sensitivity and your own personal belief, system or spiritual system or what gets you through the day. You know. Obviously you know where you stand around the possible future. country- and you know you ve, had enough the experience, of moving through this country, even documenting it I mean: how do you sort of live your life day to day mentally physically? And what do you do? What are your priorities? I mean I'm a little bit counter. Phobic, the the chapter in the book called the great acceleration which accelerations racism. The term began in the left, move to the right. This idea, like let's speed it up, he had the boogaloo boys. Have you ever heard? I'm like. Let's bring this war on here and I was in wisconsin with my child and who they're fine with is being public or who they're for a mental health program yeah and

I was very heartbroken, I mean I know, and I can only visit them on weekends, and so I had a lot of time and that was when roe fell and it's a little bit like the fall row is like for those of us who sort of steady the right year like january six. That could happen that could happen. Then it happens and you're still shocked the rally like yet you know, they're coming and like they've been organized for fifty years. That's not coming out of nowhere and you're still shocked and the way I had of dealing with it and my fear for my child and and so on, like the way that is peaceful as I would just go round and look for fascist flags or knock on doors, not to reassure myself that we're all the same under the skin. But that's like the small agency. I have right as I get quit, writing about fascism, but I'm like okay, it's really here here and know how to do this. I can go and talk to these people. I know their history, I know their history better than they do. I can sort of interpret this language,

and I know how to read stories like you know me- have a life, I'm an english professor yeah. I know to read stories and em so that- and this is not like and is not recommended, having body like how do you deal with this dread go talk to fascists and although people say now you knock on the door. You'll be killed, it is dangerous. Usually you won't. I mean right in one marinate, wisconsin guy, comes out with his gun come on in, and you say yesterday invitation but you're white, I'm Y yeah, yeah his interesting there's a guy in the book called nazi ralph and its because he is a nazi with them, as was the case tat you'd, all roomy lives in vermont, five neighbor, yeah, fine fascist flags, on a birch pole yard littered with ammunition in

gazing on has a shooting range out back that some local cops apparently shoot at this is have ever been to killing tin, skiing labour, gotta, killing ten, you seeing nazi rouse house if next to the chair with that comes down to reform you gonna, killing, tin and and through I I'm not going to get into it, but through vet, because he'll you may have even transacted with him in some way right now and a knock on his door. Nobody there next day I call and and and he had clocked me on his security cameras and he was sitting in my car cause. It's raining and he's got his gun, his glock in his lap year and- and he says what are you here and you know I know what he means here. Am I going to say I'm a journalist here, but I'm also

I am a jew, but I did and, like I said, I'm half jew yeah, which is my father, jew, I'm a jew but yeah yeah and in his mind, like I'll talk to you, because you're half white and and you know that It is also a sort of the moment where yeah the white privilege it allows me to do this reporting, I think I'm gonna use it and so on. It is less of a screen, then, I used to be, I mean at the ashley babbitt rally in Sacramento, proud. Boys is also clock me for what I was immediately there was. It was not a puzzle and I'm like what is what is it is in my pants. Is it my? They got here as a george are not as a jew just yet not them right, not then yeah, so so what you're saying too in the answer. My question is the way you Your wife is by engaging in understanding

and knowing the reality of it, and also having a tremendous amount of concern for your children and yourself because of of your heart. But you know your teaching and you're you're engaging with young people. I mean you know how. How do you keep the informed dread you know at at at bay, but at a level to where you're not freaking, everybody out other than this book. So I I really do the different that I think there's a difference between grief and mourning. Right grief is, I you know, I'm pulling out my hair. I've lost a loved one. Yes, we lose in a kind of safety we had in this country are losing the weaponry morning morning is the long process right where no and and there's a lot of mourning in this book. You know go to my father that didn't make my father's grave. My step mother dies got the ashes the whole way through.

His mound child and their suffering and behove. Hoven, and all that we had been through in the morning is so sort of the recognise recognition that something is lost. It acknowledges it's loss yep, but also acknowledging that you still exist read how you, when you tearing at your hearing, grieve how I go on right. You can't believe, be able to lead him. Why? Why we're year morning is the process. So all this stuff and can be knocking on doors in this counter. Phobic way can be, you know, doing the hippy things we all do to be sane like walking in the woods and earmarked for it, but that's morning and that's the kind of I I think morning is a hopeful act. It did it and we don't want it. We want to like have triumph of the spirit. Will the festival will close the triumph of the will for Heyer and what, if we say what, if we mourned it, and even all these white Suprema

sincere, they are losing some white power. They should lose it. They want to lose a right part of the morning would be them realizing, hey like that entitlement. I am losing that freedom. I had to turn on my tv and never see anybody who didn't. We like me, that's not the case, any more! That's good that you asked it you get there by morning, but they sit there and say I used to watch tv, and I was just good white folks were out what happened? Why am, I must mean, there's fewer chances for me and they sit there and that frozen static place. Instead of saying this, is also, like my hope. I this, I think, is a hopeful book known to many people do, but I do think that the hopeful book, like I think Harry, don't body in in a politically yes, I am, and I can see that in the way opened and closed the book and in in and in also the the empathy approaches,

but with, but I mean there's no. Yet there there's no like last chapter that says why we should be hopeful. I I can hear you say it's awful book, but that's your framing Why can't we analyze some? I mean I know so that work with young people too, especially like nothing. You should like some of the open the book as us, kids in black, or falls with content that is tiny town right and but when I read that, though I will see some people, don't think they're hopeful that no no, no, no it's not. That I can think of is hopeful. I was scared for them. Yeah yeah. We should, scared and they want to make it right black, we were falls. Wisconsin, I'm going on this famous book was constant desperate by Michael s. It was my mentor and a death trip is actually a mental. More it's a kind of morning. It's not let's get all dark is

It's like wait. A minute will explain the book. He was a nineteen early nineteen seventies, another time of great political violence. He was in madison wisconsin graduate student in history. This is when a building at madison wisconsin gets bombed by leftists there's another group of leftists who have gotten it up. Duster earner flying around dropping bombs, give the world is falling apart. I gotta young, radical but he's in the archive every day in a teen nineties, the small town, a black or falls in this town photographer. None artist is the town for, however, who took pictures of what you you know people standing a strong man in a lot a lot of pictures of dead babies. That was something they did at the beginning of photography. Yeah your baby died and your title hot. Then you put it in a beautiful dress and he propped it up in the coffin and you took a photo.

however good sitters for photographs, because here the attitude that aperture overthrow while they ordered a still right and but any such reading reading the local newspaper, which still exists, and at this time american history still holding onto that, make great great again. Oh, that was the pastoral time. The small town, a acquainted this newspaper, arson suicide, murder, murder, suicide, arson sent to the mad house, you know, and it feels the eighteen. Ninety two him feel like the early nineteen. Seventy things fall apart. The struggle is long, I mean not to say,

it'll be okay, because we've been through it before, but we've been there. So I'm traveling around wisconsin and I go to this town where that's all takes place near black river falls. This is not your walkie. This is not madison. This is now hipster wisconsin's. A little town church is, at the end of the street, looms over everything day after row and this young woman on the bridge with the black river and she's holding a sign, and it says your message and he is showing and she's just by herself, teenage yeah and people are honking and and screaming, and this local fun

analysts, preacher with whose daughter she had grown up figure skater, he's a big guy looming over her telling her she's a whore and everything he says like four foot, something he now tiny person. You know fuck off and she's joined by this group of other young women and queer folks and is worth noting in this sort of the context of misogyny. There are no straight white boys shown up yet to stand with them. Yeah. This is brave as hell, so I go out with them and then one of their moms come they're teenagers and in

thousands real straight laced, kids student body president knew that kind of stuff and we go to a perkins like a denny's, renounce what you do in a small town, eating pancakes atlanta night and they're. Filling they've had a great victory in them, the moms there and then so on. So I don't even want to say what you know like well, you know some people think there's going to be a civil war. I think they're going to be horrified and aha and they're ready and they're small town, rural wisconsin. Every one of them knows how to shoot. Armed, except for their leader, who is an archer and and in their mind she's. I catnip from the hunger gay dry and there I bring it out now. My hope here that's a hopeful, because they'll get slaughtered

You know one of them's going into the military to be prepared right right and if, but I don't think it'll come to that. My hope is that there's a cheerleader named peyton cheerleader for the black or false tigers and her sign doesn't say you know: rower, miss agnes on her scientist, says fuck off bright red letters and she says: smiling curator fuck off and I'm like what does it mean peyton and says fuck off to you marc to me to all of us who are older and failed them right here and did not protect their rights. They are not waiting for anything. They are not seeking the conflict here. They know that there is a conflict. They are not saying how come I wasn't protected yup. They recognize that they weren't yet

and that's hopeful. I mean that's a death, it that's a darker bright here, but these kids are not lambs being led to the slaughter. Yet you don't believe in the young voter idea. I dont believe in the young, the hutu idea, but I do believe in the young organizer idea actually the end you to go and organise to build in a whatever it is this chapter in thereabout occupy wall street which, like the engine history now right? But this moment, like people from forget, like distant bear, loom one a decade ago, like the big movement, was hague. Maybe obama's can be left in the dust is too conservative rare and it was a moment of political intonation drove everybody nuts, because they had no demands but they've got. You know the free kitchen and and Zuccotti park and yeah sure yeah, and I love the free library, those little free libraries, but like three thousand books and a library, ALA, library, yeah and you know it got crushed

cops game in pino, quick yak will, in the end like this whole idea. Like you hear, energy sometimes say like where we see we face the cops when like no they're just figured out how to stop it and politically make it look like I was right timing. I think that is that is like four for some young left is like the police force of peoria. If it ever really decides crack down here. That's that's that sure. Now, almost any decent, what can stay teaches us right. You're someone opens fire, doesn't matter ran so dont get to that point you go and you organize and kids yeah. They were all armed, but they were more interested in organizing there more interesting questions like how do I organised right, probably not the traditional way right right, yes, you're a vote may be there, the cops city, kids and, and and atlanta near you know, and maybe there and and maybe they're saying stream things too, and if you like, as this thing, where could I teach a college camp as you see these right, wingers go in there, basically like they're, like mine crackers

the mining colleges for ridiculous statements sure cause bull. It's gonna blow your mind. Eighteen year olds sometimes say stupid, shit, you, you wouldn't think right here. Of course they do and because they're trying to invent politics a lot of times these young folks they'll reject some lefty. That, I think, is great yeah. So what you know like yeah, I like, let them figure it out sure they're going to they're going to find out something that you and I don't know yeah so that that's it so there's hope there yeah alright was good, seeing you again Jeff thanks mark. We got to the hoping you know, cheap grace, but I like how you, when you say, hope you can you suck in when you say it's not. I hope it's a hope. For a while to possible not to be scared. Even revenues again, but for a while that moment hold onto those beautiful moment, sir I'll try,

Ok, so there you go temper. Your hope I know that you know the book is called the undertone. He's from a slopes of awards available wherever you get books. Hang out for a second, we hate people of europe, oh marin, subscriber we ve got another round of producer cuts posted this week. These are cliffs that were cut out of the w E F episode, The only way you can hear them is on full marin out of nowhere. I get this from John mulvaney just a hang with a few comics, he told me to crawl, ro. Joe mandy I condemn levy. Jostle nick spade was drop by. You know it was just a group of of comics and I was again that that sounds good to say. An italian places like that sounds great easy either ikea would just hang out. Sometimes I I have to really appreciate the community

come from in the legacy that we are part of, which is stand up, comedy. and and knowing, makes my life and in having this this this this group of people that I dont necessarily know that. Well, but we know each other to be, we are and what we are, which is complex and we're sitting around an eternity who exactly what you think would happen. What supposed to happen? Is it just and into this story telling session yo over it. In food, lotta, laughs and- and I, get into a very phuket. I give. I don't give a shit I'll throw people under the bed after our really feel how do these stories, which is a good move. confer for other guys? You might be a little more diplomatic and make it opens up the floodgates to sign for the full marin, go to the lincoln the episode description or head over to deputy of pod dot com and click on w tia plus in the menu right.

Next week we have chef Michael Simon on Monday and songwriter Bernie top in on thursday. That was why have they say it in Britain that was a banger me talking to Bernie taupin nervous about it, but we got right into it. He's a he's he's on all right, dude level, headed dude and at the book is pretty great pre order, Bernie top and scattered shot is not just about elton John, not just about being, is corrected by. He covers a lot of the people of the error. Harry nelson John lennon talks about meeting am green talk about drugs will bid elton Alice Cooper. I mean it's just you know it's it's up. a very well written, reminiscent so pre order that I'll talk to him next week and here's a

I think this is sort of a rift on a brian Eno- may be partially inspired by taking tiger mountain. But I did it with a slight art anyway. Ok I'll talk to you later Yeah the

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