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love affair fiction. An audible for me is seriously by Madeline Miller is one of the most exquisite now I have ever just wrapped my brain around and not only is Madeline Miller the author at the top of her game Perdido, weeks who reads it just incredible and here's the thing I so obsessed with performers. Reading fiction on audible that I now go to audible I searched sometimes by performer, if youve captured my heart in one book, I may listen to you as much as I can just take a look just a quick, listen to secrecy again by Madeline Miller and read by pretty two weeks. We landed with adult in my eyes to see a high soft hill thick with brass. My father, stared straight ahead. I felt a ouch to fall on my knees and beg him to take me back.

But instead I forced myself to step down onto the ground the moment my foot touched he and his chariot so this is a true story, so I'm listening to seriously, I tell Steve I'm going to go out for a walk. I always walk three miles. Forty five minutes. by the time I get home he's like. Oh, my god, it was so worried. You know Where have you been and as they are in walking he's like even gone for an hour and forty minutes, and I was seven miles because I couldn't and laughing to bear. It is in the room with me right now, who listen to your seat next on article because of me She would sit in the parking lot at work. Everyone here we gotta get it. We had a word. You think do it right now, it's very important, so here's the thing love story telling, but also what story catching and love having these performers. We- this amazing fiction. Otto What is the leading provider of spoken? Word, entertainment and audio books? It's not just fiction its nonfiction. It's me

station audible, originals if you want someone to read to you and sweeping away start with CRC by Madeline Miller. Again pretty do weeks, You can sign up today for your free thirty day, trial at audible, dot, com, slash baby or you can just tax be too far five hundred dash five hundred again You can get a thirty day trial at audible, dot, com just go to audible, dot com, Flash Bebe as in Bernay Brown or text baby five: zero zero dash, five, zero, zero. I cannot two here. Let me tell you, I don't know anything about Yossi all. I knew that when Ellen was in MID, school she had to do something in the kitchen to represent home the odyssey. So she baked Skype, cakes and decorated, each one, as it stop that oduces had to take on his journey and one of them was Sercei and she made a little pig cupcake, because sir, she turned me

and into pigs on her island. But this is a book written from her perspective about what actually went down are right, check it out on audible. Again its W w w dot audible, dot com, Slash BB. Are you can text B b to five zero, zero, five, zero, zero aright kitten here I think and- Episode we're talking to my dear friend someone I just respect more than I can even say. Toronto Burke terrain has been working at the intersection of racial justice and gender equity for nearly three decades fuel. A commitment to interrupt sexual violence and other systemic issues that disproportionately impact marginalized. People particularly black women and girls, Toronto. Created and lead campaigns that have brought awareness to the harmful legacies surrounding communities of color spaces. Thickly her worked in sexual violence has not only expose the ugly trees of sexism and spoke truth to power its also

increased access to resources and support for survivors and paved a way forward for everyone to find their place in the movement two thousand and six times I founded the me too movement Today that hashtag the changes were seen. The voices were hearing, she started that movement and she started it, and community centres and church, basements and working one on wine with young girls and women. I want to let you know that today's episode has some very candy explicit conversation around sexual violence, so This is a topic that is especially difficult for you don't listen alone. Listen with a friend, listen with some support, that's not something you can do. That's all right, too ok. Toronto. Burke why

Why are you so far away today? I wish I was. It was really for corona, but actually only been drink. Yeah? This is sad that we are all in the four corners of the earth. China connect to each other still. The last time we were together. I think this. The last time we were together, we were in the a car singing wholly, but we, we're making videos- and I singing, I think, earth one in fire. Yes- and you really brought it home with that- our parliament. Correctly. I think that you took the handles, then it was very good I don't know because I have the video I might have to put it up on the unlocking this podcast page that'd, be cool, I just know that we were laughing so hard. You can barely make out the song yeah. Well, there's that, but that always happens this is not always happened, good times what we,

responsibly socially distancing, and I wish you were here so I could give you a big ol hug and your but you are there and I am Levin on you from here in Houston, said, and then I want to jump in with the Big news. First let's go gay, your aged, I am. I am engaged now for what is this month for about three or four months, the air time telling I funny story. It's a person, I'm not for thirty years, air so interesting how life works. I met him and I was sixteen and he was older than me and I didn't know resulted. At the time he didn't know how old I was, I know how old he was, and we of talked for a little bit I never forget. Today we were, we were right.

Lived my comp and my project flatworm from abroad, and so at never die. Guy in my neighborhood before and I walked into his building, and he was talking to me about. Being a grown man and all this other stuff, and I was like you're not grown because I assumed he was like nineteen. You know he was in college and he pulled out his id and it said sixty five and I was like grown man. I was one in seventy three. This can't work yeah. I was like I'm sorry, you're too old or me, and so I stopped dating him, but we kind of stayed friends and then, from that point on, I dated him again a little in college, and then my side had to step debts and unfortunately, Bolton had passed away and the first one died in two thousand and one, and I had seen him in a few years. I was doing all the funeral arrangements for them.

you have never. It was the most grown up thing had ever done. At that point, the add on my left: that's Harding grown up. Oh yeah, my mom just couldn't policy she's, usually the person she's, the rock and the family, and she couldn't quite pull it together, so I'm making a rent into the funeral and I literally physically bumped into him on the street. And it was like any disease and he took off the rest of the afternoon and he literally just took me around to get through the flowers about a clothes. He took me than lunch and I just like thank you. I don't know how it and made it through this day that was two thousand I, but I Alabama in Alabama lives in New York, so we dated a little bit then that didn't work out. So we've done done this. Like friend, dating friend, dating forever a few years ago. I moved back to New York. He. Out in touch with me always finds me is very interesting. Social media came about any figures out.

To find me or he'll go to my mom's house. Does you live in the same apartments like thirty five, so yeah you now he'll find me anyway. You found me a few years ago. We started dating again. The timing was just off again. It was like. I was China, kind of pull my life together after I went to to school long, long story short, we had a little bit That's a monstrous time between twenty fifteen and twenty seventeen China, China Day and right before me, too went viral just like I don't want to see. I don't think I want to see you anymore, like he had done some things that just really I just got him a nurse. Like- I don't think I'll see you anymore I'd women- I so long, I'm just done with it. And I thought the moon and then last year, and I was theories out like this is I'm done you were seriously done. You were like I was done. I have to tell you this man has asked me to marry him twice before and after now said no,

and so you know. That's unusual for men, like mostly they kind of One time and the nets it at all so I don't buy it. I had said no so anyway, and I think when I said and twenty seventeen that I was done, he was kind of done too. Because he's like you can never make up your mind. I've been sure you for twenty something years and you're, never sure, so we both when our separate ways anyway last year, I finally my other father passed away and it was really hard because it was really sudden. Oh now year yeah he went into the hospital on April. Eleventh with he'd know you woke up like April lemon. He was fined April twelfth human into the hospital, and they said he had sepsis and

I just just got increasingly worse. I come to out his cancer had come back and it was stage four metastatic and within six weeks he was you know we were talking about having to take my life support and it was at that moment than he comes back right. I get a text message randomly salmon and keep taken about you. I can't stop thinking about you, I'm sorry. What have I did that, as you know, and I get these measures every few Just but this God, I really miss, and so I answered it m God he's the kind of person. If you give him an inch just. He's, just relentless he's. Gonna, take your heart, oh my gosh, but what was really that's really so literal because this time, whatever happened in the eighteen months, that we were separated changed him, and he says this to self he's like I didn't know how serious like when you left and we went on separate ways. It's like the minute I walked out to do. I was like I should have fought like this

mistake, and so the things that were like driving me crazy. He had started working on, or at least acknowledging and I'll. Tell you the biggest lesson for me. He came. So we came right before my dad passed like literally the day or two before, and then we talked on the phone and then day after some other was step, must adapt was muslim, so he was buried immediately. He he passed away like twelve, like right after midnight on Friday, and he was in the ground by Saturday night, while which was also I've. I've never had a muslim funeral. I've never done had that experience and so It was jarring to have just seen up to now been with their wait. There's there's a Keynes yeah ray and are in our life in our death in our tradition, right where its leg it slow.

When people are coming into town and it's a ride and do all of these arrangements. This was like get it done and he's literally in the brown on Saturday night and yeah you know now that I've had the experience, though I kind of appreciate it. I kind of have an appreciation for how quickly that move and it forces you to kind of just come to terms and then it's not that you don't continue to grieve, but it situated the grieving process differently for me, but I really hurt on Sunday and he came and gotten he and took me to the park and we sat in central Park like six hours after he had worked like it. You know, shift shift overnight. I was just like wow, I really miss him and you know

There are some things we had to untangle, always always either coming back and so each other's lives, and then it was a moment where he said to me: are you ready to get married? We have been just talking, maybe two or three weeks and oh god. Here we go again with the marriage thing. You know it always comes down to this marriage thing with you, and he said I'm not saying I want to get weed out to get my tomorrow, but I'm not going to proceed from here if you're not to get married and I was indignant outside. Are you giving me a of Meda? I got your face. I didn't. I didn't see you right now like outside wait what

happening here. I thought you're supposed to be grateful to be back and he's like it's traveling for a while. You know and he's like I do. I love you, I'm glad I went back together, but if you're I said, if you are you saying to me, if I don't marry you that you're gonna leave and he said not right away- and I How so That can I need a minute. You knowledge is needed. Let me sit within. He was like Toronto. It's been thirty years, you know or you don't know he's like it. If it's not didn't, then just say as much, you know it's not going happen, but you know, and I just outside okay. I do know I'll. Just so scared like it just those garriga me, but you know what the conclude I came to them, wrap this long engagement story up, but the conclusion I came to was really

I don't have anything to lose in a way that is dismissive of how much I love him, but, like I have done heartbreak already. You know I've done it. I've done. I abhor he's broken my heart? Have other men have broken my heart? I know what that looks like. I know what it feels like. I really know. No, the other side with light and like if I walk into this situation and it didn't work I know how I survived right, because I've done it. I've survived talk, break I've, met much experience and coming back from that, but I don't have any experience in being loved fully and completely and having somebody who is dedicated to like being a better person making you a better person having a really good luck, you know, wanting to love you to life as opposed to loving you to death right. I haven't had that experience and he's so committed to loving me, and I just I say deck. I want to know what this is like on the other side and your phone

that ETA. I think I'm not going to work out, but again, if it doesn't I'll, be okay, like I evidence that I can survive and hope so Christmas he came with this ring and propose in front of my whole. Family officially at already agree that, but this is like the official proposal and in Here we are again getting the son, I'm really really happy for you, I'm so excited to the gut person. It's funny because I dont I've done anything in my life, harder, more vulnerable riskier Then letting myself beloved said a whole if hard. Isn't it ridiculous that it so hard it's hard? Now it's I don't know. It's went right, address when I got married and we had a long off again on again seven years because we met too, we were young, we're right out

we got married. I was seen at therapist cause. I was like this is not going to work out and I finally went into the therapist one day, and I said this is just not gonna work. You know, I just can't do this. And she said he. I share your concerns. Oh, I said exactly right. And she said yeah it's just here like you, so much more than you like you, oh no, you like a ton of bricks. God, that's bullshit you're fired yeah. I was like Niggers, Yes, you decide, you know he really sees you and loves you and cat. Is that terrifying? For you. And it is in its so messy. It's like the only metaphor I can think of for, like feels for me, as we have this bathroom, where we have seen that are kind on different sides of the bathroom likely bathroom, but you two different scenarios and

Mine is a hundred don't listen to this Steve times, grocer and messier and like clutter than his, but if one It is out of place on his eye, like I can't live like this over here and it's like we like you, but I can deal with my own shit, but now I have to untangle my shit from yours line and then I you your bring in your own message of this, which is, probably not even as Messy Matthews my mask, but it's hot Renee, you have really you've just explained our life, because I've also never lived with a man like I live with my daughter's dad for maybe six months when I was first pregnant. We broke up, you know a long time ago and so I've never as an adult as a full grown functioning adult I've never lived with a partner. So this co has

exportation thing has also been interesting. Living together, already we're living together. That's been it's been six months that we've been living together and oh is interesting, sharing, sharing space, I'm a virgo- and I am I'm forty six and I've only raised the child unanimous, so my living my cohabitation as I've been charged Of everything I don't know what Virgo means, but I do go at forty six in charge me do you know you know like any time up shared space. Another person, I could say, pick up your shit, you're staffs, give me, and and you know I want to to go here and that to go there, and I don't want to hear anything about it and he's like. He is its interest in here, clean he's he's a very clean he's not an orderly person. I don't want you mean jobs, need that still he'll be like a little

I hate to see dishes stacked up in a sink, but then he'll get up and have cereal and leave the cereal box open on counter with the ball would have a half a thing of milk in it, and I'm looking at him like who raised you, and it's so funny because, like if you're in a good place and you're feeling like in love, Have you like uh sweet guy, a box and if you're not in a good place like this, really demonstrates. The cord difference differ between our values, in what we believe in a world in each other and the cereal box, is everything to the matter of exactly what existed. No, it's been. We have we're. Gonna couples counselling and you know it's been going

because we he's you know, he's a guy's guy and he's never done anything like that. So having him there, you know he sat there. The first few sessions kind of looking like I don't know this, lady and I've been in therapy for years. So I'm just like blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and he's like yeah, I'm not interested in this, but then he's found out that you know. Oh wait. I can say the things but I can't say to you in here and you can get mad. You can't live now yeah, but it's but it's good. It's been such a growth process for me and I don't think I've done anything The south terrible to say about it, I've done anything in a long time. It really pushed me and made me Oh you know me, my oh yeah I kind of fill a gap in coasting on what I know how I know how to live. Work, and I myself in China be better and maintain in the Baroness Ashton that you know

you think you know it all. Even some of the things that we've discovered in therapy or I've discovered about myself is like two into one. You don't know it all at all. You don't have all the answers you're, not right. All the time in this person is a human being. Who has some insight and who actually knows you have that really gets me Yeah thanks! That's just the worse! It's the its ambassador mean it's like to be seen and known and loved like it's. Why were you you're right and then why do you want a punch summit face. Sometimes I don't know the debt is like, don't see you don't know me, yeah, I just I know and dont know me to look away

easy, I'm going right about me away. Yet I've found ability thing is is interesting in this is interesting, a watch him fine safety, because I also know you know this is a list of fifty four YO black man. Who's been trains like you work hard and take a family. You love! You moment you take adequate. You know, like that's his yeah is saying and I'm just like you deserve a more robust life than that. So you know, like you deserve to be right, joyous and happy in vulnerable, like this is a place where you can do that, and my cracking into that and watching him response like he'd, never smiled and pictures before he's, as always, can go back years and years and pictures unless he's with his kids he's barely smiling, and I have this picture from his birthday I took him to So our land I had to go to Ireland only came with me, but we made it into a birthday trip and went to like the race car, a thing like that are so he got alike

raced the cars and then he went a little trophy in and we took this picture out and he has the biggest it'll take a twelve year old boy. I put that picked up in our bedroom. Unlike this moment, right here just to remind you that you deserve to feel like this all the time or as much as possible. By lay it's ok felt, like I think so many men feel like they can't tap into that outside of themselves because ass, you know what does that mean about you, yeah, so it's been great for both of us. I think well, I'm really happy for you and I'm feeling all the bumps with you and you know we just got to you show up with the people. We love right. We have no idea what we're doing little. Yes, the death Valley feeling. Even we have no idea, not Anthea. That's like you, Stephen Had no option answer. Both are all we have eight now sets,

Eight parents. Parents are divorced and remarried and divorced and remarried, and we didn't have a lot of models about what it meant to be with someone. You know in a way that we want to be with each other? So we just headache now we just try to commit to keep showing up like and figuring it out, and sometimes it so. Furthermore, even Mary, knows been women other thirty years last year of unmarried twenty six or something I think tank are three two, maybe and together Emily married twenty six. That's amazing. So, when I ask you something, as you said, something that I two I want to talk about me too. And I want to talk about something- you just said about your fiance that reminds me of something I quote that I read from here You said, love your wife. Take care of your family work hard, but there's more and that more is joy and that

or is fully lit, living and lean into the vulnerability, including the new, the beautiful love. events in the joy moments in those things that are just so hard. You know, I I quote by you and I'm gonna try to graphic. I'm actually pointed out my head right now, but it said I was talking about, Me too, black lives matter. These are not anger movements, oh yes, these are declarations he we're not in these movements shoe. Live a life of anger and rage were in these movements to declare that our lives matter there? you're not alone, if you're a survivor of sexual harassment, sexual abuse, and that we are entitled to full lives of joy yeah did I get that

That's the case. If I remember that- and I don't remember the interview, but I remember saying it yeah, because I think people get that wrong so much that it's. You know because we're interconnected its people just humans, that I think test, and then you know this is my thinking I always feel like well. I hope there's research to back this up, but I think because we're interconnected as people as human beings, that when one group of human beings talk about the ways that their lives have, you know the world has failed in the way that these systems of oppression has failed and other groups of people feel like it's an indictment of them them that they are somehow. Somehow. Personally,

At each individual life. There's accountability to have to happen in our own oppression. We know about why supremacy, no by all these different things, but mostly we are talking about like we need that we need to have the ability to say it's just like everything else. We have to be able to say it out loud and declare it so people understand. Why did you have to? If you can't hear me, I feel it Can't see me, no, that's right. That's right, you know say it again if you can't and hear me that I think you can't see me it's like if you're on a desert, island and I'm screaming and screaming, and screaming and yelling, I'm not thinking that you can. See me because you can't hear me, I'm like lab in my arms and elegant way than an you. People just doesn't feel like it can be seen. If you can't be heard. That's right. I think that's so. How it so I decided to take a minute with that year,

it ought to be seen and known and loved, is the only reason were here and if you can't hear me, you can't see me. Yeah, it's an important distinction, I think for people, because it's you don't have to take an affront to me, raising my voice to me. You have to be to feel like it's a personal affront right that I'm saying I have to say this happened to two it as much for me as it's doing for the world like. I need it personally, but the world needs to hear it too, because we will erase groups of people if they're silent. We will just forget: they exist because it's easy because who wants,

look at the mass it's like we were talking about our house earlier. There are two types of people. I always think about the people who sweep piles into all over their house, but they don't actually pick them up, do anything about them and then there's people who like sweep it up, put it in dust hand and throw it away or whatever. But you know we will we don't like to those those of us who sweep it up and put it in the garbage. We don't like to look at mess. We don't want to look at that. I want to just put it and makes us in the garbage whatever and you'll forget about things. If you don't see them, we don't want. I would rather not look at them ass. I would rush even as a black person. I would rather not think about racism and oppression as a survive. I would rather not think about the things that I don't have and the things that happened to me Adam.

To think about, and so I know the people who don't experience them don't want to think about them. But how do we live together? If we're not privy to our? I have a whole space for everybody's experiences and in reality, how do we call exists? You know just in general, I don't think we can, and I think this idea that this idea about being, You heard wrapping words around experience is about movements, like me, too,. And black lives matter. Not being movements of anger but expressions of our wholeness lending. De the love joy I just I don't think anyone has led me more fiercely and lovingly through that

Understanding than you- oh thank you, folks. Listening right now, so Trot Burke founded the me to movement in two thousand six. And it wasn't a hashtag. I wasn't a Hollywood movement, the way. I understand it and correct me if I'm wrong Toronto. It was a movement that have community sitters and classrooms and church basements and places where You needed young girls, who worse Sure salt survivors to know that they were not alone yet? Is that right, there's absolutely right? It was it came about in a time when I just feel like there was an awakening while looking around at these babies in our community, these young girls most who were in our program. I was my best friend at the time and I had started this leadership program. It was the girls like empowerment and leadership program called just be

and my goal, because I came up to a leadership programme. There really changed my life and I want it to continue that experience more directly with black and brown girls. I didn't that. I didn't think about this until I got into the world even? I came from this sort of civil. I was in some elements. I was surrounded by people who had made civil rights history, who had been a part of movement in one way or another who were just really grounded and a social justice legacy, and I knew those people personally- and I knew the trauma that they had experienced both from indirectly in the Movement Andrews from being. You know living in low wealth, underserved communities for decades and. I also know that when the movement last and all the hoop flowers tat died,

those people were left just to exist. On now in a film is one of the others in Dallas. Counting Alabama is one of the poorest countries and I am a you know. People realise that this place that gave us democracy that reinvigorated democracy in this. Tree is been ignored, and so I went in with this goal of empowering these girls to make change in a community creating. No doing leadership development with them so that they can go in effect change. You know, have the how to do that and also to be grounded in the sense of self worth, like personally so when they go into a world that they're not worthy, as it often tells black girls that they would be empowered to face that lie. But what I found

Where a bunch of girls were very eager to do that work, but who were also carrying so much trauma and so much pain, and it started to feel the reason why I compared it to the civil rights folks is because it started to feel an es the I arrived at the right where I'd like to some degree like unethical, to axe these girls to go out and fix it. Community to be empowered to go in and go back and create change in your community without empowering them to create change in their own lives like without addressing the, They were holding in their own lives it just as as if it were just normal. Yes, we can't to skip over that yeah in an end, you not, I think, that's what we do for a lot of activists. We we want them to be on the front lines, want them to fight against social and just but we're not dealing with the trauma they're holding in their own communities. Whether it's the trauma of you know, poverty is traumatic.

Or violence. You know, like all of these different things occur in our lives and we don't work on folks inside the same way we work on the outside, so it was like. I need to pull back and figure out one. What does it look like to speak? I don't want to sound like a pastor with us because it wasn't in the same way, but to speak healing answer these girls lives right, no yeah, I that's I or not, but that's pastorial accurate yeah, but you accurate yeah. I How do you know what my life and it was an attack, When I was doing I was I missed personal journey, you know I was it was the beginning of like this, like the secret and not you know that was reading all the deepest chopper young on. If anybody I was just, it was just so well so yeah mindfulness and self awareness was kind of at a high at that moment, and I was just veraciously reading everything I could and those things this is probably two

I know I'm not disparaging anybody's is my personal experience, but those things warrant helping me in what and then I think it was because it wasn't speaking so what I was looking for, which is also some years later when I found your stuff, I was like. Thank you God. The difference is the self help stuff that I was reading at the time felt like it made me feel, like I, was doing something wrong: yeah Jeremy, it maybe your browser like that you're broke and you want to go out side of yourself. Enjoy. You know you have to go. I remember when I found the gifts of imperfection. Oh I oh, I know because of a TED talk their files, I, how about I I have a friend him Nancy, who well, I've been Facebook friends with the like fifteen ten ten years or whatever, and and she's a psychologist and at sea posted. Your ted talk- and I was like- oh my god,.

I have been talking about shame and and vulnerability, necessarily but the that what did the din. Of shame and what it does to us impotently it's about sexual violence and and generally like related to being black people in America and how we, we notice all the stuff. Now. Shame on found it. I didn't have any research or anything like that, and then I found it, and I was like see the lady said it. The lady said I, but the thing is that you had experience of working with thousands of people who have lived. And my researches just I think you Taught me there's no way. I could have told you more about shame than what you taught me that kind of where we met in these kind of like we ve got to know This thing began so yeah.

Yeah and I'm I realise, when I was with the girls, is that all is we shall deal with the shame factor we can't even get to the healing enter. They were wrapped in it, it was it it had become on yet another letter and I had to re, I was walking with it, but is not sure, we'll do that when, when a child mirrors some of your insecurities, you see it clear and you're like no, no baby, not you at any rate the thing I'm holding right and I'm. Connect these little eleven, it I'll be girls who the same age as ours, and I was going through this day who have just adopted. The shame is like a coat of Amr. You know they had just adopted. This thing go in there. I'm not deal with that. I am definitely this type of person, and so I operate from this place, cause I'm this type of person and that thing that they had taken on that this type of person was,

because of shame and their experiences were sexual assault yeah an among other things, but you know I remember very clearly I'm writing right now I'm writing about a lot of this, and a lot of this has come up, has been really painful because I remember very very clearly knowing and understanding at about eleven Bobby is all that. I was a particular kind of girl that I had gone past, a threshold of Whatever a good girl wise, you know clean good right girl was. I couldn't be that this is because I had been left. It.

And I ve been sexually assaulted and out- and I did not- I did not ascribe anything to the perpetrators of the people who cause me harm, because I felt complicit in my own abuse. Emma complicity cause me Dick Cheney, and so I just decided I'm just this type of girl and these type of girls things happen to these type of girls and the best I can do to hide. The shame is to pretend into the world to at least make the world think that I'm a better person, so I'm going to be I'm going to have straight as I'm going to do great in sport, I'm going to do everything I can to Create this veneer of perfection. So nobody can see what's really underneath here, which is this horrible girl who can't even keep people from touching her. It's so complicated for a twelve year old to carry that,

but an ant capitalism rocky the load is impossible. Yeah because heart the dynamic make that no one understands is what your naming right. Now again, you know you coming up with language for us, which is so much of sexual abuse is making sure that the victims and targets and survivors of it feel responsible and complicit in their own violets. Yet Yes, so much of it, I that's part of the first key of unpacking. How you start this journey to healing is. I remember going through this therapy thing around thing survivors and we went we got to like week three or something like that, and they said we're going to deal with. Anger

You know how you it was. It was a religious though a chart and those like how do you release your anger towards a person who caused to harm, and I remember talking sue the group facilitated Africa's. I would help call facilitate from her and said I don't. I don't actually have anger towards the people. Did this to me Like I'm not an awaited should thinking you know, people out of the other survivors warlike, I hate them. I want to die, or you know like those guy. I didn't have that, because I took all the blame on myself So I was mostly angry at myself. I didn t have the kind of angered other had some. I was like you know like why'd, you pick me kind of anger. You knowing. I wish you would just pick somebody else, which is terrible from a child. My the year,

it took me a minute to I had to dig in and get the anger against them, and that was actually therapeutic for me and it was an opposite kind of thing like I had to become angry with him, so I can display some of the anger I had for myself that I had Harvard for my cello and put it where it belongs, which is why I was tell survivors you got to put that and where it belongs, it's not a burden to bear it such the it such the most complex and difficult. Part to me of shame is when we in turn wise. During that internalize the responsibility. The blame yeah is sometimes I extra analyzing it without the right support in place is may be too much to bear yeah. No, I think it is, I think, extent analyzing it and in saying this you know you did this disruption

You cause it it just there's so much involved in that is so much understanding, basically if it happens as a child. So much understanding that we don't have yet even about how the world works. That is required to do that. Then you have to for many people, and I think we talk about this is ways that we talk about healing and survival that are really dogmatic, like you do this to get here you this person feels like that is personally Like that, and it's like you said it's really messy and complex, is not we don't all experience at the same. We don't all feels. Even for shame. Speaking about like the diversity of people who experience sexual violence, I have talked to people who are from asian families from southeast asian families, from african immigrant families, black american families, Latin Latinx families, the universally

shame as a factor in what we experienced, but why we have shame varies. That's right greatly! That's right! Culture. Because shame is driven by messages and speculation that are absolutely socio, culturally driven yeah yeah. It's this Anders or so does the, expectations and messages? That feel shame are so culturally bound. Yes, they are, and which is why we have to be careful about like how

Which is why I think a lot of people can't find themselves in the messaging this out in the world around survival and around sexual violence, and you know, I think, a lot of survivors of color feel lost or left out or not seeing because we're not speaking specifically about how, when I talk to folks who are some asian families and they talk about the complete family, shame and a lot of immigrant families have the same thing or you talk about people from Latinx communities, who the reasons why We don't tell like they don't tell not because they had different choices they might tell. But you know we did a PSA where the woman is, I think, Columbia or Honduran. I can't remember I'm sorry but she's talking about why she didn't tell when her uncle molested her, because she didn't want her family deported, but I actually didn't want to risk bringing law enforcement into their lives and their family being deported. I didn't tell- and I probably could have said

As an adult, I know that if I just said what I needed to say the night, that it happened, that my mother and my stepfather would have absolutely responded well and believe me, but I, as a six year old child black girl being raised in a in a city community with a lot of police activity and a lot of police violence. Even at six years old, I was six one, seven I knew consequences, and so, if I put together inside of less than a minute, if I say this to my father he's going to get his gun that I know he has, He's going to go, get this person and then he's going to go to jail, and it's gonna be my fault, like I made a very adult decision at like six,

when years, all based on the world that I lived in it. How what I had seen how how're you know that our cultural norms in a community that has been raised, and so these things very from person to person community culture, culture and we have to be sensitive today, and I think it's there's no way again to go back to what you said. Earlier. That, I think, is so you know for me, just life giving and changing. We can't see people if we can't hear them and so We have to hear the stories and hold one story as their truth, whether it whether it reflects

our own experiences it it doesn't. It doesn't matter. We have to stop putting people stories through our own experience and take people stories as the truth, yeah an end, you bring you bring up something that I think is also important in terms of this movement right as hard as that is for a lot of people is difficult and bigots has. That is its also important, because if people dont understand what survival looks like then than they really we'll be in a position to help survivors, because I make this joke autumn bout. You know we ve been watching law, Nora S for you for twenty years and the lead. That most alot of people see our have gotten there, the breath of their knowledge around sexual violence, Thank God. The show has shown a great diversity of issues and things like that, but it is also a television

so drama, it's a drama right and they get to dramatize things they get to have a happy ending. They get to tie it up neatly in forty five minutes. That's not how life works and if I'm telling you nothing made this more clear for me in the last two years, then the Brett Kavanaugh hearings and the response to Dr Blasey Ford. And watching people, even folks who were supportive of the movement liberal folks, whatever you want to call them right who were still questioning her, who still wanted her to be a stronger. You have a stronger testimony who wanted her to remember more who

Her to be different and then the NASA is, of course it was like, oh clearly, clearly lying because she doesn't remember because I watched people pick her apart and pick a part, her story, and then I listen to those of us who have survived this thing and we all thought the same or similarly, it's so amazing that all these, later she has the level of memories. She has The things that she remembered are very specific to the way and made her feel right when you listen to her She's right absolutely, this is, I remember: what's that work is that she said in my. She's a scientist. She said some. She said something eleven indelible mark in her something and then the laughing and the laughing and the smells like all things are trigger us right.

That that that we remember an hour- and I had this encounter- tell the story of because it brings a home for people. I had doesn't encountered the bathroom, because I was there at them in the hearings, which is also life changing, but I in the bathroom during the break right after she testified? We were all just like emotional and people are trying to pull themselves together and and this woman who recognized me, starts chatting and says: oh, that was something wasn't it. Oh, my goodness and I was like yeah blah blah blah, and then she said I just wish. I wish that she was just I just wish she had a little more detail. I wish it was just a little bit stronger right.

Now. She is, you know, for lack of a better way to put it we're on the same side. Here this moment right right and I was feeling some camaraderie with her for a moment like just to have somebody to unload on, and she said that, and it was so jarring to me- and I said they're not very really talk about my personal experience on purpose, but I turned to her, and I said you know what I'm forty. I think I was forty five at the time I said I'm forty five and I was Melissa when I was first Melissa when I was six years old. So that means for the last, like thirty nine years, I've been carrying this and all of the people who know me. Everybody knows me closely my close friends and family. They know that I have a terrible memory, like I'm notorious everybody knows,

write it down in IRAN is not forget it, but you know best is ass, good, ass, a thing I'm China work on, but everybody knows it and I set it took me years to figure out that the reason why I have this terrible memory is because I've spent every day for the last thirty nine years. Trying to forget, we don't want to have these memories. We don't want to every detail. Imagine having every single detail of everything that happened to you. The worst thing that ever happened to you holding every last detail for forty years is horrific, I am glad that I dont remember the color of my coat other, the that I was I'm glad that I don't have those memories I want them. So the fact that she could muster up what she could in there is heroic, and I hope that she can forget all of it at some point, because ass, the only saving grace this up for some of us is it is to get this thing out of our bodies at some.

And we never really can so do not stand here and tell me that you wish she had more memory. Because should she suffer more, She's already doing this thing. As the sole hurrah issue absolutely doesn't have to do, and we only say give us more give us more because we don't understand survival. We don't understand what it looks like what it feels like what it cost and because we not have that information other people who have control of our lives, whether the jurors or lawyers or people who make decisions about the lives of survivors. Don't have enough information about what survival looks like, and so you, they double down on our trauma, because you ve made this decision based on something you saw on tv. Some way to somebody else, you know survived and issues not is not right, and it's not enough, I'm really just taking it,

right now: trawler, unjust and hearing what you're saying and I I just keep thinking- out. The human need. Two separate ourselves from people who have experienced things that we fear. And the need the knee- For me not to believe things are true, because if they are true, it hurts too much or I'm too afraid, Or I have to reflect on my own experience says, and that I give me I never thought about it to this moment where you're, like you, give me more detail I shot man. I've spent my whole life trying to

up and not remember every single detail, but we're not survivor centred where fur protect protective power systems in place entered then set. Lee, though, for those of us who really are trying to do the right thing, arson awareness is not only To think about what you're saying- and I just yeah because she met well right like she was my right. This woman definitely was not aunt. I am she, you know probably wished her well and thought highly of her. She didn't, she wasn't mean. Just was unaware and in a political context it gets even worse so divided because then you've got the the barricades are built in and that's this deep polarization I have people who support the president is administration. We have a

right into our social media pages and particularly around this, when the cabana engineers will happen things like, oh goodness, I was you know. I was sexually assaulted. When I was a kid, it's not that big a deal she needs to get over it. I mean tons of those letters or women, saying oh she's lying. This happened to me when I was such and such, and I remember every single detail down to the letter. Like you know, she's just trying to take down the president and I'm like y'all. Listen, let's see how far gone. Are we really like we're almost depleted of compassion? If this is the place that we are in that we can't even take a step back to see in here. You could want this man to take the place on the Supreme Court and acknowledge the,

this woman is telling the truth. You have to be honest with ourselves and is the kind of honesty to people don't want to face it ear. You are creating a mean that statement right there trauma you are creating an internal tension within people that we are slowly but surely losing our capacity to hold gentlemen, like that, we we cannot hold to competing ideas very well together, so we just have to just let longer traverse. The idea it's in our way idea lot. I must tell you that thing, as I say, is gonna. I have conversations I'm really struggling in this moment. Most

inside of the black community. I am struggling with the rejection of the movement, hasn't it and an end people seeing it as an attack specifically on black man. It's a growing narrative that is really getting dangerous, an ominous its dishonest, but has also just really dangerous. We already have a very small amount of real estate on which to build this movement inside our communities of color and sell when narratives like that pop up, they take up so much more real estate that we need, and that thing you said, is a thing that I try to drive home all the time about our ability to hold to shoot. At the same time,. On more than one true. So for people listening that don't know I mean you and I are friends Oh your work, I know about the tension and the attack the meat to movement within communities of color. Can you help people talk about why

that you see the narrative on Twitter and it's just it's so not factual and it so easy to just check it yeah it's really a narrative. While there is growing- is growing narrative that black men are the target. The meat movement which has been started inside. You know a distant small groups of pockets of people on social media, mostly and its based on the fact that its it's complicated and not complicated its contents, the baseline like our Kelly, when the hour Kelly Documentary came out on lifetime it in over three days, it was really sensational and it was huge and it over and over again and it got a lot of attention and for the first time we had people outside of our community. Talking about this thing that we've been talking about inside of our community for twenty years gonNa Clark Kelly, the musicality musician right who multiple charges, multiple charges of sexual.

Island sexual assault, sexual misconduct, everything you can name who has been targeting I'm teenage black teenage girls for years in his community, I mean from middle school right girls as young as thirteen for years and years and years, and black women mostly have been railing against him as an artist as a person a a as a a predator for years and to no avail music, music still still play still, was touring. He was still very widely popular and accepted, even like Lady Gaga did a show with him did a song with him and performed with him at some big award show in this last decade right has been really hurtful for a lot of black women that we could not get attention around this person

and then the Harvey Weinstein case happens right and all of a sudden, the whole world stops because we had these different. Looking survivors who had these, you know rich white, wealthy glamorous famous women who came forward who again see as survivors far strike. I'm not. This is not about them in them coming forward their survivors and they deserve to have that space to come forward and tell their true, but I think what it brought up for a lot of people in a black community as well for black women for sure, is that why is it that we can't get the same attention? We ve been talking about a predator in our community in a similar way, well, All of a sudden when we do get that attention now, you know those people who follow the movement know that the most popular Celebrity cases have mostly been white man. You know I've been in a wine Matt Low and Charlie Rolls and Louis K and

on and on and on right. There were these deal with these cases of white men even prior to Einstein. We had Bill Cosby, but then docile Roger Elles and and the other guy from Fox NEWS Right Felt is but too in this did his pockets of black people who are antis that, while Bill Cosby went to jail and now our Kelly's been arrested because he was arrested and indicted for multiple charges after the documentary air, why? On any white men going to jail it's like it's, not all it's not that simple, but secondly, you Harvey Weinstein It took a while, but he was definitely array they charged indict whenever blah blah blah anyway does narrative of like why do we keep talking about black men has been growing in grown and growing.

And some of it comes from a very real history that we have in America, of black men being falsely accused of sexual violence, right. That's a very rummy from Emmett tilted through the Central Park Java case we seven rain black men historically in this country b, falsely accused or sexual violence, be weapon eyes against them, and so that's a harmful and heart full part of our history that you just canneries that is just is what it is. It's real and today we have it, but that we have not owned that we have, people have not all that we don't talk about their rights, but in our community we know it re right. So for many people, when a black man is accused of sexual violence, we have it gives us pause first, like wait, who's the victim, what happened all the things that we do. We do not encourage people to do when folks come forward, have become standard. In the black community, because we see

It so many times we stand a false accusation, so I get where the the immediate, like the distrust comes from. I understand that very clearly so that a truth ride, but here's another truth that also doesn't get held up and that we don't talk about the black women have the second. Highest rate of sexual violence in this country. We are that we are either we have the second highest right, yeah sexual violence in his country, behind indigenous women. That is a very real thing. And so that is another truth. And yet a third truth is in every single community, every community there's no special depravity in the black community. There is nothing that makes our men you know have approach Towards sexual about nothing like that, but in every single community crimes are committed against the people who are in closest proximity. So that means that white people tend to kill murder rate

other white people, asian people, asian people, Latinx people, people next people and black people, other black people right. That's why we rail against this idea of black on black crime, because people commit crimes against against people who they live closest to and we tend to live in pockets together. but again, if we know that that is also true. Now we have three troops if we hold all little shoot and we have to understand both the sensitivity around calling out black man around sexual violence, and black women need to be seen as survivors of sexual violence many times at the hands of black men Not always right, we have we seen Daniel Claw and other. In South Carolina ve seen major cases of of white men who have Who are not black, who actually committed crimes against black women?

but by and large, just like every other community. That's our reality. So If we only hold the one reality of the history of black men, be an falsely accused and we operate from that place in this moment. What happens to the to the masses of black women who have experienced sexual violence? We get away again we want to we weren't. Seen me too went viral right. That was mostly not of color at all who were put on the forefront if we acknowledge that. That's true so that you have white women cover

if we only deal with the history of black men being falsely, accused and come to their defense every every single time a black man is accused and and and don't want to hear anything else. Where does that leave black women? And that's all I've been saying that my work has always centered black women and girls? For that reason, because somebody has to speak up for us, somebody has to say that we matter somebody has to prioritize our pain, and my hope would be that the entire community could embrace that and say These individuals, who've been the r Kelly or the bill Cosby's, who have been called in mind. They haven't been a ton of black nobody men who have not to say they don't exist, but they haven't been called out and pointed out as perpetrators in this moment. A lot of that is because black women do not want to be held responsible for being the one to call out these black.

And in the last few months we've seen the repercussions of that right: Oprah, Winfrey, Gail, King Jada, Pinkett Smith, Jamel Hill, myself, the black women who stand up and say anything, not accusatory, not anything that looks like we are trying to hold a black man accountable for behavior, but even black men like R Kelly. There is this backlash in this video that says you hate black men, as opposed to saying you know what these particular black men do not represent black men Our Kelly is not indicative of the black mass in my life, who are who raised me who love me who have been, who have been surrounded by for most mala he's, Madame if that is, so we want to make sure the world knows that when somebody is our community, we want them held accountable. That's not! The now has that is taken shape, pray,

and so going all the way back to what she was saying before about the need to separate ourselves from the things that we fear. I think that is so much of what we're seeing is rooted in that. If we have to start looking internally and saying we have to address the rate of sexual violence, that is happening also, not just the women and girls right in our community period back guys black men also survivors. That's we right. We have to like every other community should do it, and I get Oliver mean all of us collectively, but then also because of those cultural differences. We have to take a step back in our various cultures and ethnicities and talk about and think about the way it affects our groups of people. It's very important that we do

do that, and if our response to that is why you always talking about black man, why do you hate black man? I'm like come on you? This response is coming from fear and shame and a lack of of of ability to Vulnerable really right, I know vulnerability is hard for us. We can't all afford vulnerability, but we we need a come of it in this moment. Order for us and compassion to say like this it's the truth. This is just a truth and we have to do is sit with this truth and, unlike on packet and figure it out and come up with some solutions. We have the ability, I know really long but long, but it's sort a complicated and new nuanced. I just wanted to be clear that I got through the whole thing. I think it's complicated and nuanced and I think

That's why I want to have these conversations with people like you, because when we lose our capacity for complicated and nuanced, I think we lose our capacity for change yeah and I guess what I'm struck by Tron as you're talking, is that how complete oppression is as a tool that in white supremacy. It's, not just what you see it's the ramifications are so bone piercing. You know this idea that It's gonna be seen another communities, we see it Lino with women who hold other women accountable, and how could you ever do

you're setting us all back or you know it's oppression, just every door. You try to open. It has already said. Trapped there they fail to honour blame. I absolutely I I was so struck with by, of course, you know it. Of course you know what I'm talking about, because you built this work. It's just, I sometimes think, and I'm thinking on my feet right now. I don't know gonna make sense, but she almost seems to be completely predicated on not being able to hold multiple truths at one time and assigning rank to truth, so that what's what- or smaller truths get crushed in the process. Jena mine, like.

It almost seems like the greatest weapon against oppression. White supremacy is critical, nuanced thinking right because it is a breaking the breaking the. If I I am oppressing you race and then I have created this lie- that I am a supreme being right and this truth is the highest truth. It is absolute and all consuming that this is true and I have to proliferate Everything that you believe everything everything you see everything you here with that truth in all this is that they are saying about grounding of girls in the sense of self worth, because that's up tool to fight back that lie. It's a tool against that lie and we have to like live our lives and build a literal arsenal to fight the lies that are created and put out in the world.

Ash truth. You started the me to move met at fourteen years ago, yeah. What is it? What is yeah good reason? that's a good bye bye. Really looking at young. Girls in this community, that you were entering in teaching and modeling how to reclaim their own self worth and value. You looked at them and said me to its becoming hashtag now and white? has been centred on it. A little. Would you agree the earlier the thing that I think about you when I think about me too, and the history, and just my friendship with you is. Would you say it's true or not true, that the meat you movement, that you created. Is a movement that is survivor. Empathy and love focused, absolutely one hand. Our art are tagline was empowerment of empathy oh really yeah. That's the

tagline for me for me to one or two everything everything it's, it's empowerment, empathy, because what struck me about using- and I actually can't me before- I didn't use the word me too- when I was trying to figure out What was the thing that worked most for me and my like healing journey when I started trying to figure out how to feel better about myself, and it was the moments that I had deep empathy with other people I had this United have language and have we weren't survivor, healing that that is. I didn't have that language, even in my own journey. And I remember meeting with this group of Women- California is activists, badass, radical women who we were doing a digital storytelling project and just kind of hanging out after and somehow another turn to survival like talking talking about sexual violence and of and I felt brave That moment, even just saying something about being a victim rank, as I just didn't even talk about

I was on a journey, but it was very personal and one of the women style. Never forget this indian woman. She stopped and she turned to me and she said no, no, no, no! No! No! We don't use that language. You are not a victim. You are Survivor and and although we used widely now, it was not widely used- then a cutting edge there, oh yeah, and it just blew it was you know those moments like I was like. Oh my god, just what it made me feel like was it feel so much better to feel like? I have overcome something ravenous up come to dinner. Like all this thing didn't kill me. I'm still here, I survived, and so I took that nugget and these women allowed me. They just saw me talked about a lot of what I do in our healing workshops comes from that experience because we didn't talk, tell our stories we didn't

sit around talking about. Like all these gory details, we talked about things like being afraid of the dark hole right. We talked about like what our sex lives were like post these things, and I thought I feel scene. I have a group of people who the empathize with my life as a survivor, and I needed that I needed to feel like I wasn't dislike, we all survive, Sus of apples very isolating the violence is isolating, so even if you see the numbers and data- and you know it's were awaiting intellectually, you know is widespread. It feels it immediately feels like somebody is other in you and putting you in a corner. And a lot of times. I knew I loved you. I was. I love your exclamation of like the difference between empathy and sympathy, and I use it

and one or two other things I tell people to is that for survivors sympathies sometimes can feel like other ring, so people will say to you. Oh I'm so side. It happened to you and now that little piece right there that happened to you feels like an arm, I'm in the studio with my arms up like putting arms distance, because it's a separation between you over there that that thing happened to and me over here. And I know people mean well obviously when they, when they do, that, they're trying to be there for you and support you. But it's such a different experience and somebody saying gosh that happened to me too, Right and the minute you have that, how I to people sometimes is that you have created community even if it's just for five minutes.

And then how powerful word their powerful, whereas we now there's a thing. I know about you and that I understand fundamentally about your life in just saying those words in this moment that so many other people don't get, and that is what empathy between survivors can feel. Like a lion like from me meeting. originally was about empathy between survivors. Like I see you and I see you too so yeah. Definitely it was about love and empathy and healing, and the power that is created that empowerment was was about. The power is created between two people when they Is that exchange of empathy? How do we? I am a firm believer in I get this question a lot. I believe empathy is possible between two people who have not had it fact sharing experience but who are willing to hold people

stories up as truth and listen and learn. Do you believe that absolutely I get that question a lot to like what? If I'm not a survivor, can I empathize and the reality is we've all felt pain? Most of us have experienced trauma. Most of us have experienced loss right. These are the things the things that people carry the residue that the trauma leaves is very similar to a lot of different things, and so you know you can pull from that place. They like I get this if you can get past it. This is why how try to get away from the detail, sometimes, because if you can get away from the details to what it is that it left with, you, then, is a better chance of people connecting to that right. Cause you don't have I ask people all the time when talking about talking about empathy said. I know you know razor, and if you know, rage, paleness pain trauma. It's

You know a lot of us have had the experiences that we need to share genuine empathy. Not all of us- are willing to tap into them to make that connection rights, and so what I think is imposed more is to both self protection, insulate And see and hear other people at the same time. Oh yes, M it emits literally impossible, is literally ample. About you. Want people won't go there. I mean less such a great way to to active approach that act. People left us, that's why I tell people like there are things that I holding that to experience had had that you have to have literally nothing to do, could beat it a loss of your mom in know like right that brought you to this place, but at the end of the day, Is even with other survivors, there are so many survivors who I get this. I get this message all the time or this question certain such happened to me, but it wasn't that bad

I heard of suffering is what we call it. What do they call comparative suffering honest? Exactly! That's it exactly this. Thank you, I'm always look Nothing can never that not enough in its high. Let's rank, it occurs,. I am ashamed to take too much the trauma and empathy space for my stories. I know there are worse stories with just the most dangerous narrative of all it is and this is what I tell people and I get it from a lot of young young girls. I go to college campuses and I say what matters is what it left. You with that of the saying that Ben and it sometimes to be you know, like you, were not sexually assaulted. You were harassed. The thing that it left you with is what matters is what you'd like? I don't the details, don't matter, I mean they matter to you personally but like in terms of

What it did you could they are also people who have had very similar experiences, who walk away feeling completely different. That's right I've met survivors who have when they say the thing about big span for my gear that that was not confront like that was this date be date. This would this would be they're just Okay, they didn't take it. I waited internalize thy way. I don't want to give it to them. I don't wanna Adam I media create that thing for them as you walked away, and you didn't leave you with a thing, then I'm grateful that you don't have to hold that burden, but a very similar experience could happen to another person and a ruined, and it just takes some time and makes them feel just awful and they are left with this pain and or rage or shame, or like all of these things, and it's ok

like you. Have the right to acknowledge what you feel you don't have to rank it. You don't have to compare it to anybody else. It's yours! It's Christine, because when we study empathy, what we found is that the willingness to see and hear people and be with them in their pain, you know, is the big piece of empathy and that sometimes people who had the impact, failure happens for two equal reasons, one you and validate, minimize or maximize? And Sperience you're, not with some one where they are or equally you ve had the exactly experience, and you a tribute all of your you're in what you would call what you were left with. to them. Is there's no script for empathy? It's like am I willing to be with you hear you and believe you yep and that's hard I want to read something that you tweet it and then I to to read what responses were you

a tweet after the Weinstein verdict, that said for the record, I'm clear that this verdict and sentencing is squarely. Do the survivors who stepped in out of the shadows and bravely told their stories, and I am here to support them in response. Someone wrote. I know that I'm young and still in the process of becoming but as a historian and training, I'm gonna make sure the history books have your name on their pages. You have given a face to the brown black bayesian pink bodies only survive but he'll and thrive. Thank you another response? Another response, not Toronto, Burke, deserves all the power In recognition the world. You can't build anything without a strong foundation. Hashtag me too who is that foundation and Toronto. Burke, you built it another response

Thank you. Many women today got some justice because of you at Toronto Burg. You gave these women the help and support they needed to speak out. Hashtag me, too, is the foundation. None of this would have happened without you. I didn't see these responses. I subtile tweet and is kind of tired of the computer, and I get but I hope you know that- and I think you you know There is rage and I think rage and anger are important and they can be catalyst for change, and I don't know, there's been ever really ass of change without some of them. I think they're really hard ways to live in too high a price to pay that live with those. But you have built a movement that.

Is so based in love and empathy and so survivor centred that I I hope. It becomes the model that people use to build other great movements that tackle the shit that were up against today in the Yes, indeed, indeed, would now be nice as they weren't you and you did it and I know that that's hard for you, because I've read a lot of your. I read you and listen to you all the time, and I know that you hate you always Think the movement- and me too, is bigger than you or anyone else. No one should be centred on the work, but the survivors, but I just have to say to you that I think it's important for people to understand who you are.

Are your intention behind the movement and the work you tirelessly due to keep. We centering right people at a mean. I appreciate that I I do it is hard, sometimes because up enough, I know a very much feel like this. This current integration of me to what we are in now was built on the backs of survivors, and you know these folks who courageously came out and did not know what to expect did not know was gonna and did not know how is gonna help or not help and posted in tweeted in hashtag me to all over the place pot of us. You know that big as when people like accuse me of courage, if my girlfriend says in a poem

people are like you're, so courageous and you're. So heroic and I'm like, I feel, really dutiful part of what coming up with this idea, and I, the movement around me to make me feel like when it went viral, was like, oh god one. I thought I would never get my arms around it and then I thought I have to get in it like insert myself in some way to try to at least keep it grounded on these people like if we can't have as much coverage as List of the people who had the courage to say me too. Then we don't deserve to be. You don't deserve to be a leader. You don't deserve to call yourself anything related to to shake your movements. So I feel, like my job to the last two and a half years has been try. So like feels like yelling into a well but try to keep shaping and shaping in moulding shaping and directing people

Away from the salaciousness than the headlines in all the stuff that will move you away from these people who bend over backwards to make sure that we see them and we hear them and we have to keep seeing them and I feel like in a lot of ways we haven't given them anything in return for that courage. So as much as I can to try to answer that, that feels like the call like that's the work you got to keep remembering these people. That's why I just keep bringing it back to them, because if they aren't centered, then we just get lost in you verdicts and headlines and who's next and all that kind of stuff. I hear you, I hear you loud and clear. Thank you though. I appreciate it. Let me ask you a question, and this is where I can get really pummeled online and I just feel so sure my answer, but I I trust you on this. Okay. Can we use shame as a social

justice tool as a tool we, yet what do you mean better? So I always believed I'm thinking about the Audrey, Lord quote that the master tools will not isil the masters and idea that we can use empathy count ability and just. Yes,. Social justice tools, but I dont know that we can use shame belittling and humiliation. Alas, alas o Campbell declared that it I like where you go where you I would put bride turned out like things this is just one is doesn't like, say more Really I was like, while she's gone into the same or like a guy. I know you ought to know when you're like a

help me understand what you're, like that's Toronto, bark for bullshit like no absolutely now actually makes me feel. You know. I get it people alike. In this moment it is easy to slip into what we see in greater into the same place and and in a lot of ways fighting fire with fire feels good, because it feels right like I'm getting you the way you got me, but we end up in the same exact in the same exact plays an address if we are not aiming to be better like sometimes you just slip, sometimes you just Oh yeah, something gets the best deal ever, but at least now your pain right, so knowledge that this wasn't. This is not the best way to operate a just did this, because it is obvious in pain or what

but no shame is definitely not a social justice tool. It's just. It needs to be relegated to wear to the same place all the time and I feel like if we stop pulling in tools like that and using them as an excuse to fight for justice like there's no place for it, and we will end up in the same exact places. It actually speaks to kind of the thing I was saying about the issues we're having internally in the black community, in that some of this is about people not wanting justice, but wanting to have the same privileges as the oppressor, and so they use the same tools as the oppressor internally in our community, and it's just not affected we're going to we're going to end up in the same places. So no, no! No, no, absolutely not its helpful? For me, I just think especially, I think about sexual harassment, sexual song, violence, all violence where humiliation belittling. Shame are the two

rules of silence. Oh yeah. We the jokes on Weinstein will offer people. That's happened about him, getting raped in jail. Are you gonna, like does not helpful? It's just not helpful, is not useful and and really what people who do that don't understand is that they are not allies for the movement, because that is contributing to rape, culture and rape. Culture creates the space for violence, so we need to dismantle the culture that creates the space for violence. If we're gonna, if without ever see an end or an interruption of sexual vial, and so it is not it doesnt they. I think they think that they are making us feel better or maybe to making them selves feel better there. Just but you're not is a disruption of the of the movement and its it's really moving backwards. Now, flower. Don't become the thing we fear, I mean come on, didn't beneath it. Hu. Thank you for giving me a chance to explain myself with your

me more hey if you're listening right now. Do you ever find yourself in a conversation with drone Burke and she takes a deep breath long enough to like say a short prayer and then says, tell me more: you better get your shit together. I think, because we had stopped and I was thrown, I was like wait. I don't know where you're going with this, but I'm listen. I want to listen. in very fast questions. Are you ready? Okay, let me take a simple water hold on all right lightning round. Here we go lightning red vulnerability, filling the blank. For me. Vulnerability is hard work, hold on to be brave, but you're in some real fear. What's the first thing you do pray, something People often get wrong about you and I'm not funny really yourself funny people become so serious. Unlike no do you

you don T know what you are. You are duellist ticket bear you're funny and your Syria at last. She oh you bend and loved among us, this is so typical but unbelievable Netflix. It's about sexual violence. I know, but it's so good. Ok, favorite movie, color purple. A concert you'll, never forget the review mentor of puffy. and bad boys reunions to a couple years ago, one of the best kind of them into favorite meal. Okay quickly, quickly, favorite meal theory. what's the best which runs employed in called me, ok on your nightstand right now junk. My Ipad, my earrings the box for my ring, because I'm kind of obsessed

and like not losing it not with the ring crystals all kind of junk. A snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life. That brings you great joy to one fleeting moment Laying on the couch covered up under this big fluffy blank, What my love binge watching tv and last? What's one thing that you're deeply grateful for right now for you, I'm so grateful. You. I really am I'm not just saying that, but I just can't even expressed- and I think people who knew me before I knew you could tell you, I'm so grateful for you and this work that feels like a validated. You know. Sometimes you have things in your head in. They feel like they make sense, and then, when I found you, you made the things in my head makes sense and made me feel not like just as crazy

and who was like, but shame and and fear, and you you had science and you had data and you'd still be made. It look, no clear and plain for everyday people's. I'm like forever always grateful for you. Forever, always grateful for you. Tirana. Thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you next time I see you in person I'm giving you the biggest Yes, you ve ever ways