Hello, I'm overtime skin with me Russell brand. Today I spoke to professor Tom, all of our tom, all of us, a professor and ecology, at the university of rating I thought for a minute was a universe of reading, which would be a bloody good universe. Take us right, you gotta master, that ass on the basics. In fact, if you call me, get out of our universe, a a social ecological systems. Expert and senior fellow within the uk government's informing environmental policy day. I didn't know that. Why don't I read these things before I talk to people, then I would know he's published more than sixty five scientific papers, before we criticise him, how many scientific papers a view published gin, and I just did a master, who's your publish early papers, Jed know. Now I was on the way to doing a bit that sixty five girl is a landslide war. Rout he's done sixty five pipe. Is you can open them on board your mom? This even in I was gonna, do phd and then villages are going until I'm gonna. Do we ve broken if anything can be voted. We deliver services,

Criticising trump, what what yeah Where's your golden power before you criticise him. Sixty five sixty five papers here, the marsh award for entomology in twenty four eight plus he's roads, of delusion, which expose our people, animals plants on the planet we live in or intimately connected. I've had to comes actually more ready, so brilliant teacher, great communicate. My? U really loved into new amazing says jen? Did you learn from it? I'm gonna go. What more can we do to promote him they promote me. If you ve not signed up to my email yet sign up to own Russell brando com, you get an email letter and I tell you now you bear open it because some people have not been opening the malaise. Isn't that right get him open. I'm good I'll. Send you an email within a unique opportunities to see me to assume coal which are due in the

suits me otherwise obliges us one off. We got redo. This aim call for australia, we didn't do it right, we gotta do it. Seventy end me, but they say Coming back, I will come back. I am going to do the zoom call again and the money will go to a place in milan bambi as a community center everytime. We do. You know what I was thinking. If somebody is here all those ideas, one should we kay subscription model way by a one off ten dollar fail wherever they you can come to many, and I soon causes you all. We ve got part donated different people as we choose to car member. There was another one, but any right to talk about that in our production me in so well, yes, on up to this email list of mine, you get wonderful of tunisia, be grateful. We could come to the life chosen. Dana London, palladium or reading or oxford. There's a few tickets left for oxford few for ready play the bigger venue get these tickets before this lock down

The lockdown comes during the time the shows are on sale. The wheeler of c will refund you and the thing is that these geeks socially distanced. I will stay up on that show. I will not come and talk to you because remember: that before they live dixon. Was it isn't is when it Jane put aside data. They said that data women who didn't promo for these things for facebook and all that and with using some of us or something from the articles we got through that as well. This meeting is just a production meeting or an intro. You tell me you tell all may? Ok, promoting the assets of that? Now? Let's look at some of these common I so hungry shut up everyone says the breath. What was quite refreshing shit out. It must I'm with fine price. If I know I'm talking about a sort of felt law, the wives of mine, a sensation start ribbon inside. I was more aware of all things in my peripheral vision, a mixed

to learn more from being in a brief technique. Thank you at Russell for bringing on beer and thank you guided by be at this. For this interesting brave and technique. morgan lindsey goes guy Bobby Jim gang. for eight miles in gratuitous daily is amazing. How much drafts was relieved just by breathing. They go. What more Well, one on a podcast breath techniques, meditation techniques, methods and ideas, I changed. The world was a bargain, so I sign up for the push for that thing that we're just on about and now enjoy. This wonderful podcast with Tom Oliver, professor off our teacher, every single word this man says, is impact for important and educate.

I don't get into it, trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of category successful. That's exactly right, we're in this era where it turns out. We were never the fucking hot dog walks beneath the surface of people. With more of the ideas that the finance on the welcome to Russell brand, the Tom. Oliver, thanks for joining me on under the skin, like you, you're, professor in ecology, but the aspect of your work. The interest me the most, as expressed through your book self, delusion The way the weather used us ideas that I've only really heard in a sort of scriptural spiritual context, but you are underwrite him scientifically. I e reality is a constructive rerolling connected. Can you give us a basic understanding of this complex idea

yeah sure I mean you're right might my background is ecology, and I guess I I've always had an interest in in kosovo simulation and buddhism, and things like that from a young age and my professional career, I guess the am I start to realise that ecological problems, you know whether its food, you know that loss of biodiversity, climate change, acidification and allow these ecological problem is actually the solutions lie in in disciplines outside of ecology. You know in economics cycle, gee, I'm not sure, even under those. You know how we structure economic institutions, for example, that all depends on our mindsets

as you know, on on our worldviews past and present. So it really got me interested in addressing the root cause of these problems. You know they seem like big global problems, but actually some of the solutions lie lie within us within our mindsets and actually, when people start to realize that the self this this idea that we have of the self as a discrete autonomous entity is actually an illusion, and actually you know

religions or philosophies have been saying this for many years and in a sense, is nothing new there, and I guess hopefully, one trying to bring to the table is- is some of the evidence. The new evidence from science, whether it sir neuroscience psychology environmental sites actually saying now. This is there is evidence to support this, that there is no such thing as an isolated individual, we're all deeply interconnected power, one no massively connected reality and actually not when we realise that we know some of the solutions to these big problems, environmental degradation, but also problems like mental health issues can start to be raised. So I guess it's a kind of evidence based spirituality in a way a kind of hybrid between science and spirituality. Perhaps I feel low like I am an individual. I mainly know I remember my childhood. I feel my feelings if you stab a pin in my arm, it hurts me and not you so what

Do you mean by the self an illusion and that we are in a great to various ecological systems and that these self is a delusion. So it's certainly intuitive to think you know that, but where indeed jos. We have this autonomy and I we wait where isolated not sense we ve actually evolved to feel that way, because we need a sense of self. You know we we'd be bumbling hounds. We want now to find food. We want me out Our social interaction subway evolve this. This got a programme which which I believe we have an autonomous region, are distinct. sense of self but action, and that was useful. We know we need it, but I'm not saying we will get rid of that. It's all so take lsd and end the mindless and go home, I guess what I'm saying is much of continuum between selfish individuality and and kind of more collectivist cooperatives I see, I think we shift

who fall on that continuum and on talking about trying to bring to some evidence to the table, to redress that balance there's this said we'd have a vote. sense of self become maladaptive in the modern world, because especially in this globalized world. You know we're not living in small hunter, gatherer groups of or tribes of fifty two hundred people were. You know. If I was selfish, I stole food or you know stores the night, then I was watching each other and be punished. You be physically basin are excluded from the group, but if you forwards to today and I we operate in these big sister. eighty seven point: eight billion people. I can buy something at the click of a button on my computer here, and it can impact run it sang in the rain forest on the other side of the world. A model and are a kind of legal systems haven't kept pace with that rates of economic growth as so rum that's a danger that they evolve selfish is becoming maladaptive, It's an evolution is uneven,

free trade, but it's become maladaptive in the modern world. Just like our tent see to run in order to seek out fatty. It's though, there is a height that high energy food sources, it would have been really valuable to be able to get those, but when you're in a in a in an environment where the hyper abundant and you've got advertising shoving, these spies in your face, you know it's It's very it becomes maladaptive or not, aspects of culture to where it interacts without that biological evolution. So you know whether it's our education systems they're telling us to build self esteem in or build a stronger self. You know our government, you know Margaret thatcher, Famously said, there's, no, such things society only individuals and their families. Whether it's all advertising saying you know, you're worth it in all these different factors. a different sources, our culture and our minds. Immersed in it. They soak up like a sponge and not eggs. Debates this. This evolved trade, having a sense of self and it pushes

we follow along the individualistic end of the spectrum. So I think we need to to address that our thinking today they are perhaps even the utility and dominance of the english language might perhaps be because embedded in our grandma, are possessive, arms and ideas that fit in with is primarily economic ideology that fatty, shy, zis, individualism, materialism and separation. I e I am angry. The other that, rather than in our language, it might say something more quick akin to anger is passing through me. Like I know in hindi, someone explain to me in India that in did I say we say I speak english. I've got some english and I am going to speak it in hindi. They say hindi comes to me, an attitude that suggests that kind of collective.

Two connectivity that you are describing so many of our ideologies and systems that we favour even communicative ones, us of reinforcing an idea that is, I would argue, economically motivated, you think now irma put in the chicken before the egg there, professor knocking you're right. I do not think this carefully. There is evidence to show that these differences between cultures in those languages in the use of of nouns odin verbs indefinitely, The languages used a lot more nouns and have this idea of of objects, as opposed to focusing on relationships. and actually the use of individualistic words. So I made a mine may personal things like that. Those words, has increased over the last of it over decades recent decades and they in those more reference to those in books and songs. So you know- and this is the kind of reflection, and in other studies showing increases and individualistic values and product,

is over recent decades. So this culture is is exacerbating and in this sense of of atomized individualism is is definitely worth in in certain western countries. what you said about the economic focus as well, I think, is quite interesting. Ecology, environmental science is a dozen, paradigm for how we should save the world and it's a little bit scary, because old paradigm was that we should explain in a kind of share with me Well, the the the the wonder and the beauty of the world. You know save the whales save the panda. You know his. You know this this beautiful tiger and you know, let's Give some money to save it. Conservationists would say: well it didn't work. You know we ve been meeting up targets, species, still declining around the world. So their idea is, we should monetize the value of these things. So we should we call it natural capital So you know this is the paradigm of natural capitalism. I guess and your idea

You know you say: well, ok, you don't just value that b, because it's beautiful, even though they are beautiful buzzing around us. You know but actually you say well it it provides this much money of pollination and, and you know what our crops and you give the hard figures, and then you couldn't, you know, pushed back. against the big farming lobbies and are you protecting rainforest? You don't just say it's full of beautiful creatures. You say well, this rainforest provides water purification and then it's at it's roots, drawing down carbon from the atmosphere. So you can quantify all these things. Now there s a good role is a good role for that. But actually the danger is that you, you monetize things and you make no doubt that that their values then about the monetary value as opposed to any kind of deeper. Of spiritual connection that they are actually part of us and them

I guess. What's worrying. Is the studies to show that when you monetize things, you actually undermine those more social values? So there's a famous study about a kids in childcare in america, where the parents were picking them up late, So I said: ok! Well, let's find the parents thinking that would make come of the earlier, but actually because the parents who now paying money and could be a little bit like they actually got later, sir? I just thought: well I you know I could afford it so we'll tire and then the even worse thing is. They then change the rule again him and took away the fine because they realized it didn't work to being the white. Was there were still later so what its undermine that that social norms doing doing it for the right reasons, as opposed to just doing it. For money, replied to the environment, can pay farmers, for example, and owners to pretend to protect fails. You can say that we need some pays, so they work this much here, some money to two plants and habitats for bees,

and that's what's what's this natural capital paradigm is all about to pay farmers or landowners, to kind of protect that natural capital the danger is: it undermines those reasons that they might do anyway. This is because, for example, you condemn the the farmers, how we are all connected to nature, and actually it's all actually part of us and protecting nature- is inactive self care they're not build sought that kind of social value of protecting nature. Some recent studies show that were they they have analyzed it. It just turn out that the pay paying a london is to protect She does undermine those social values so that that's pretty worrying. It's called crowding out of social norms is where money pushes out those those values. Yes, as the main likes of light. The last reef of kind of decent say, answer kind of pantheistic connection bidding washed away by the

Newly immortalized dollar sign some people. I know working that work in agriculture and of not talking at the monsanto end of the game at the more of literature Ass roots level, seem to have an intuitive understanding of each has value and integrity, and perhaps only development his relationship with nature. As a result of the strong economic imperatives their placed upon him, the kind of requirements cut corners or ever elsie isn't, it seems like it seems like evolved or otherwise. It feels like you see a sum where embedded in our nature, this understanding. If in, gratian in in the earlier tribal societies that you described earlier in our conversation, mate, it will like return. Mystic societies recognised the our survival, is contingent upon this degree of reverence towards eg the ba a buffalo or the. Why ha other or that whatever is the nominal talisman

I have a tribe even in an accurate light early agricultural societies. The other is a reverence that little hangover of which still could be things at harvest festival or wherever. That is when we everything becomes call of let qualified by a monetary value than its innocence. Yea creates these nihilistic, why land in which anything goes. There is very soon his bill, hicks used to say quit, A dollar sign on everything on this planet, but once everything's gonna, all assign on it. Then you Well then we know what it's worth is. There is no suggestion that space you are it. There is no disconnect yeah? Absolutely I think, I'm mean like einstein said, is, I suppose he said to know everything that counts knife. that can be kept not giving. What did you say? Ass boys difficult to track is in some of those ideas times, not real spices ben. I don't know where to go.

Now, don't even try to articulate the theory of relativity. That said, no, not everything that counts can be counted, and I think that's one. That's good! In a less poetic As I say, stadium lying einstein stay in your line,. yeah, the under the other great. You knows this. Cs the actually had a strong sense of spirituality of inconvenience, pantheism didn't they. I guess, Now that the idea that you know, everything that is important can be, can be counted and quantified and have a dollar sign on it, and when you try to do that, you miss of the important in our values in the world. I think as you said before about these, these all the cultures that were more connected, the natural world. I fully agree, and I think we're gonna an interesting time at a crossroads because on this and she got one culture which is kind of motoring down. This line of individualism consumerism and damage

environment and degradation of mental health oldest byproducts among them along the road you got yourself a culture which is much more. A kind of growing awareness of fun. Now thought in this of all of our wonders, and you know you see school It's saying that I'm not going to go to school because I'm going to strike about the climate. You know that taking a hit themselves because they feel they want to protect something bigger a sense of global citizenship- and I think that sense of of glow- identity in this to support that when, when you can to quantify people's attitudes them using different scales, like a nature, connected the scale of a social clause, the scale basically it if I look out of the forest out there and I kind of feel more connected to it, then I have a higher nature nature connecting us school. Essentially, you couldn't. You can ask people questions too to assess them. it turns out that when people have a higher nature connecting us, they they they tend to protect the environment more. They tend to be happy.

There is power, which is a good byproducts, but they also. You know that the more light to recycle them more likely to run savagely the carbon footprint. So actually you see, then the kind of leverage points that if we can, if people can we can change our mindsets, we actually have the solutions to those big global problems, because you know how we feel connected to nature, affects how we act in the world and also ex how other people we act as a kind of contagion of that behaviour How do you assess people's natural connected this, which is a lead question too? Will you assess mine yeah as part of this there's low, there's a lot different indices and they all say poorly the same same thing in terms of I will cut a correlated, but it in the front of my book, actually there's a there's, a qr code and it links to a survey. So you can, you can go in and score your

Is this self delusion or if you got another book, there's anyone one? This is the self delusion yeah and the ideas I wanted to assess what did we enable people to see these indices and explains a little bit about the science that when you know, as I said, when oh hi, on these eight, they tend to be more pro environments in their behaviour. The social connect This one is similar. It's kind of how. How are you yourself, overlaps with other people and when that, If you score high on that, you tend to be, not surprisingly, nor yet high levels of empathy. You tend to be happier tend to be more pro social? So you, you have more caring, behaviors and compassionate behaviors There are ways we can start to say well how what was ok, if we tried intervention Computer game designed to increase empathy, so these exist. We might think computer games off any doubt about being antisocial sitting on the road and you're, not senor pressure, but trying to develop some computer games in theory increase empathy. But

someone says I do believe him, I'm not sure I would, but then this ok well we're gonna test people before with the social the scale eliminated. The master they ve played. So what book as well. I you know I felt I really wanted to have rightly spoke. It felt like use vocational, and it was a learning experience me, but also wanted to know you know. Does it the change mindsets, because that's my but ultimately we'd like to do- is to fit to perceive presenting peoples with with this so I guess around these different areas. You know our office the bodies that were full of microbes, all of us in their affecting amusing data's, the father, you know thoughts, transfer job between minds when you explained the sights of all this. The people I feel more connected, sir. I wanted them to safe survey before and after the book, and I want it simplicity, evidence so far, but it does seem. There is some evidence that it that it can increase that nature connecting us on social, connecting a switch seems quite promising. Offices emphasizes is quite low, so yeah

Can you explain a bit more about that police force, jumping between heads and microbes ornaments? yeah, so so the amino acid, it was about before we we insurance if they fail that, where a kind of these independent itemised entities, but when you say the physical science we I mean. Firstly, our bodies are made of molecules which actually parts if they were part of other plants and animals, and you know side, our body, there are forty kilograms of oxygen, oxygen was before was in our bodies was spread around the atmosphere in the earth in the oceans is inside dinosaurs and plants and trees. Just just together give you the experiment about how that those model would have spread out if you imagine those forty kilograms of oxygen right now there quite dense

held together with with the therein water, so their strong kind of intimidation. bonds holding our bodies. It that's why you dont know float around even every foot of oxygen, but if when we die and when the weather committed or not judge and molecules which would burst out spread among the atmosphere, you can run in spreading around the entire earth? allied hundred kilometers high in the atmosphere and those model spread around the entire earth. If they equally spread how far apart you reckon the average oxygen molecule would be, it was once in your body. I don't know like if they have to go around the whole world. Like I denied twenty mile fifty miles, small eyes, but smaller that, so it turns out there be no three millimetres apart, so in a million a meter cubes if around the whole world in the whole world, to take a meter cubed from from above a kilometer of russia. Moscow and you take it

to keep cute that'd, be twenty nine million molecules of oxygen that were once in your body. So less dense fog of of molecules and that's mingling, with a dense fog of molecules that were once part of other. You know every every dinosaur. That's ever lived every plan every you know shock, chuck wallace, it's all mixed in their. So when you too, the brass a breathing in all those stars zoological legacy. Why zoological legacy? That's a nice bit language yeah, I guess you're also breathing in bacteria, because on our body actually most of our bodies in terms of number of cells is, is backed area. We have about. Thirty, trillion bacterial cells in our body, so thirty, seven trillion human. cells so be slightly. Outnumber us but there are also inside inside. Our human cells, in all we have is, might andrea there power houses of the cells that produce the energy that we remove around they were just richly single cells, bacteria that going engulfed by by a bigger cell

that became multi tele organisms that evolved into humans. So even inside each one of ourselves cells. Little russian dolls are kind of microorganisms bacteria. So kind of car, mirror of of the human and nonhuman and an enemy was bacteria area, not guts, the law stuff. You know you read about how they can affect on moods and our emotions again detracting from our supposed. You know them because you know with the way we can be affected by our got bacteria kind of treating us today. In addition to that, there were no skin in our mouths, It's about a thousand difficulties, species, behind aw is as of hundred fifty different species, so they're all over us, You brush your skin like that they they fly off into the air so actually around you. We set about a million microscopic particles every hour

and you can sample that, and it contains a distinct like signature of you. So if you concise sophisticated processing of what dnase, then it's your own kind of signature like cloud surrounding you, like an all this post revenge. So next to someone you breathing in that cloud, you know so we were constantly in, Transferring molecules between us and ass, you love the cells in a body you know their money with us for a few weeks, the new cells form. So we like Senor lay turning over so that ok, that's all bodies or physical bodies are not. They dont define us but what about dna? That's the instructions to build a body. Maybe that's us, but actually thus, in a borrowed from our ancestors, will pass on to our ancestors to come. I mean even viruses, sometimes carry dna between humans. so you know that that the tree of life is actually like a dense tangled network. Because of these, these viruses pulling the different limbs together. So physically, you know,

the site so says you know we're not we're not individuals, but I don't what. Psychologically, maybe we are- and I guess that's where the the the psychology comes into it. I wish I could expand on, but now gone now I was going to say about the thoughts actually. My next question was to be explained now like how the microbial effect of consciousness and mood and stuff- and I was going to say about the thoughts but yeah- I guess cause cause- then, okay, so yeah. Maybe it's our minds that that kind of defines me? That's really, that's me, but actually in every every touch from someone everywhere, every pheromone you, the smells the molecules and we get from people influence is our brains. You know we have billions of neurons, in our in our heads and made their changing every every second and their influence by every word that we hear everything we say so when we're were not even the same person that we were when we woke up this morning,

always changing. So, even as I taught you now, what kind of changing each other's brains and interacting with the light by our minds are a porous under you know. We have this disease is cultural ideas that you know, for example like inventors are great alone no geniuses out that kind of relieving away in their laps, but actually a lot of these since almost kind of ready to be birth to that kind of a product of her. Standing on the shoulder of giants, I guess is a is a cliche, but it's actually true, you know lots of inventions like the the the better incandescent light bulb. Steamboat hypodermic neat, neil, all invented by multiple people. At the same time, sometimes patents filed on exactly the same day in different places. So you know This event is what necessarily you're, obviously, that the bright women and men, but actually

they are often taken almost inevitable next step in a series of kind of interdependent innovations in this creativity. It's part of great linked. You know so human endeavor. I guess yeah. Where does it come from? You ask, but perhaps also have intuitive reactions of genius, whether it's in sport or art or science there's this sense of awe of what is. How did someone do that? How do you do that is a sense of this beyond the individual? I heard some time ago that we should regard ourselves more as an event than an object. you think it's possible plausible likely that we regret that we narrative eyes our reality, cheats the sort of nature of our perspective. operate on a limit bandwidth of consciousness and that perhaps there are complete, a bold, distinct, higher or at least different levels of consciousness. Perhaps at the level of this of microbial reality that you describe floating in dense cubic

above russia that could be a tuned to could be subjectively experience still do I'd like to get into that kind of gear of it. I think that there is definitely things are not. We don't know about the world for sure, and I think, like you said in terms of firm, we can Did you say I think you said about, can announce a guess whether all objects, a tree or whether things are events or actually dynamic processes? And I think absolutely turn. You know You really look at a carefully. There is no such thing as an objects like a noun it's actually a shorthand useful shorthand, because I mean imagine trying to choices, I think I'm a book. I give an example. If you like her. What you are you gonna failed or something and you ve got an assistant and you ask him to go and color cut the meadow. You know you say that because it's a kind of useful shorthand

but our future and articulate back in its full complexity, be saying, or can you go mo, that area which is in the process of change in the sole microbes, have becoming dynamic and their gas fluxes and this pollinators, which are made up of dna, which is connected to the rest of the world? You know, I can't do this job anymore. I just wanted to work on a farm, complicated everything yeah. So, yes, you lose your assistant. Zoe ricotta! Need that that's what happened but actually there sure and can become a bit dangerous if we believe them they become a reality. This this of the the signifier becomes the signified. I am I I have the great privilege of living near the river thames others, the river some time ago there's a weeping willow tree me and my wife, when under it on a paddle board and hung out, didn't do nothing erotic with just hanging out but light

as a like, when a boat will go by the ripples come along and remove the little party border, we run us holding onto a branch to keep us their underneath it, and I said that I imagine that if you had sent sensory instruments sensitive enough the waves that we can experience when we are in water would be measurable, when, one comes into a room and you are affected by and by some what you're saying about pheromones and microbial information that this it's true that, like you said, oh, I don't feel cool when that person comes in like it's not entirely a construct, as materialists are in the game. At the current then, if of understanding would have us believe, but that there is the. The that we all slept in good. Something negative just happened, and where do you say you fill these things in your gun in your heart, where there are indeed, as I understand, neurological, selves and processed

it could be called intuition, taking place. Definitely yeah Love processes that look out behind our consciousness that aware of and and I mean there's experiments, for example, where you know dentist, making mistakes. If you, if you don't do that, is by the way, if you wear it to the dentist that you ve been, you know you ve had some fearsome event happened: syria, you jumped out an airplane and then you're you're the kind of fair pheromones on the teacher, and then you go to the dentist. The dentist is more like to make a mistake, because that those pheromones kind of essentially affect them in its an alarm, pheromone, so yeah system, lesson about. How was this study take? It could

interested in a double blind format. Right we are going to need a couple of hundred dentists. We going to date, the sky divers and some very smelly t shirts, yeah, that's well as yeah there's. Actually, a couple of there's a couple of weird experiments like that one was they got? They got this the skydivers and then they get the sweat from the the tuesday. I did do it. They got sweat from from people who who'd been exercising, but not in a kind of fearful situation and then heiress eliza and then they spoke out. People's noses smells nobly sweaty. Both both treatment smell the saying that one of your kind of got the fear factor in and it does affect people's effects. The way they behave. So these kind of hidden things are happening all the time and you know, clever scientific experiments can start to reveal them, but you know that's like a needle in a haystack there could be many more

Fact is happening that we're not gonna. We don't know about you in the way we were responding. Sometimes when you am life from a neurological perspective, look cat, personal comparability, and these people say that you put the do you think that you made the decision at that point? Actually these processes indicate that the decision happened before that, or you know like those behavioral experiments where people were asked to expire their opinions in a variety of social issues and they became more conservative when there was a small repugnant smell in the room of trash or wherever people are nourished. We shouldn't have immigration bloody ability. If you put me in a sweet smelling, we espouse rule one like that itself suggests that in a way stay there yeah there is no. I there is no. I the the first layer of the illusion of the material world is the persona. This is the first thing that we encounter here, hence a little deeper than the table, a similarly illusory objects. By

It is nonetheless a construct that requires faith in old to exist, I believe I am Russell I remember going to school, yeah, useful constructs big, but you know me and I guess that's sometimes p m, you know the people missing sometimes the way you know we're talking conversations that's because they are, you just want to get rid of a self you'll like it, you know you, you kind of wonder you'd but actually office in itself as useful. We need- and we need a selfish just moving back alone- that continuum towards that sense of of compassion and click I mean you mentioned about blame there, because you know if you believe that things are in the wrong individual entities. then, obviously they can be blameworthy, and so someone who commits a heinous murder like claims at the top of the tower and shoots lots of people in- the universe to compass, you don't you know that they are a criminal and they should be punished today.

is an interesting question and, of course, that we need to keep society safe from them, but actually some of these cases, in fact that case I mentioned those- are some uncle charles Whitman, who, who did that he got some guns. In fact he stopped his wife. First got. Some guns went The compass of the tower and shown us the people, but when they and it turns out he had achieved in his brain. I don't shoot me. increase violent tenders and is it written a letter tourist he'd been to the gp is, is doctor before said, I'm starting to get these weird violent tenants, in other words, something wrong with me. in a suicide note before he committed this, these acts of murder. He wrote, you know, I'm not feeling myself and I request. maybe an autopsy could be conducted, a fight when I die and have a look at my brain and they do and it turns out there is a big chiming. Then it I say Ok, how blameworthy as you now that there was some cancers in its head, which

stop the region of his brain, which inhibits violence, and so you know when you start to look at these causes every. If every event has multiple causes going back from it and use ok, you know, come things people be blamed, of office, I mean it's, you know we have. Maybe we need to protect society when their violent, whatever, but It enables a more compassionate treatment of we have often and kick in them in treating them like dogs, vienna. We must treat them much more like people who are ill. I guess I need only occur, we say child is naughty or something it's a short hand, a nazi. If we try and get behind in a what causing behavior what environment is causing that naughty behaviour, that we start to unpick those connections and that's it constructive way of of. This interesting of apparent of two young children- and I am- I is difficult not to, of course in

to my own value systems and judgment on their behaviour, even though they are experiencing an entirely different reality of most of it, from a neurological perspective, and then let them know that of patterns the evoked by their rage or by while I would consider its mouth cons, in a letter that I reckon as I look sometimes you me and my wife talk about it and I go yeah, but even now that I have to ask, is disruptive or unpleasant was essentially happening, issues communicate in, but she's, not feeling good ladys If that is the way she communicates. That, it's in with I'm actually like that, you punish you sister Roy, you did so you know your horrible to the cattle. This two f off then use over evaluating on that basis, rather than if it is to misuse the different if they cry or wherever in our so recognize that we, the

in reality is a projection as much as would mean more than that. It is an objective reality to which you can bring a set of you was a measurements that are consistent. Yeah. I I've got young kids as well and is a challenge. isn't it, I got psyche in some. Sometimes you're tired or when you you're kind of in a rush, difficult to forget that kind of sense of of understanding the kind of interconnected this leading to their behaviors or whatever and unjust getting angry at them as an entity, one of my metrics of not metrics, but personal experiences of this is as an addict. I recognise that we diction. There is a point where my autonomy, notably dissipates. I e. If I speak

the thai I admire. You have abstaining from drugs and certain behaviour is not put myself in an environment where I lose my autonomy, they will a point where I can't decide anymore, so I only have the option to regulate by is, there with his conscience, with structures that I put in place. I don't hang out people taken heroin, I don't go to crack houses in a truly had read altered my daily routine, I myself have ever like us, but you know that once there is a certain point where I cannot choose anymore, I don't feel I have no choice. I have to solve almost operate within these parameters. If I stay within these parameters, the universe clear things are going to Jim premeditation, helping other paypal trying or curiously enough spiritual techniques staying present in the moment. I can a means for the past trying to treat people correctly etc. Is interesting that where's, that's why I'm so open to spiritual solutions for both personal and so

problems, I'm particular fascinated by scientific and evidence based approaches to this, because you know This is a substantial number of people, particular people in powerful institutions regarding flim, flam and claptrap. If what is under right in your work, view, is kind of spiritual of any hugh. It's just of traditional abrahamic stuff or more new age mumbo jumbo of, though I'm into both for those things. I think Things are really interesting. Point. You make about practice, and science. What are the dangers? I guess with a book about science is that

it's all about theoretical knowledge. It's about abstracts. You know, and I said I think the science is valuable because it points it highlights these kind of hidden connections and rugs. We talk about whether it's our physical bodies on neural networks, social networks, etc. I think this fascinating things that reveal that the interconnectedness and how we are all part of one kind of tapestry of life as it were removed kind of threads. In that that big tapestry button, and also science can can lund. So, if assessment of different practices, so you said you know whether a computer game can genuinely increase empathy. Whether you know tat can kids out into the environment. To learn about nature does actually work and does it change their behavior, so it can assess different practices. you can assess meditation. You know you even you in this, nurse feedback mechanisms, very kind of you know they track your brain. Is your meditating and see what's the most effective way together? I guess, rather than

feeling your way to get two an altered mindset. I guess can in ferry sites could be used. Always being you to kind of highlight where, when we close it's getting to those different states, I suppose it's like Sport, science, helping athletes, gets to repeat level of fitness. Sites can be used along the way, but there's no there's, no kind of replacing for practice. You have to have the practice I mean archer and olympic your firing in our owens retarget hundred meters, away, we ought to look about, and you know- or you could explain to me the the details of the faith, the exact theory by which it's done, and if even if I understood the theory, if I picked up that the in about an hour joy to fire, I would be able to do it, because it's about mobile networks in the body that I've been I've been forged through hard work and discipline in practice. They know what, is playing the piano, whether it sam

archery, whether its meditation it's the kind of practice, It lays down those networks, and I guess it's habits, you're, lying down, good habits and well worn tracks by which you you can just go in, and those things get easier over time. As those of us, you got that habits as well as towards about like Peter addictions and there it so difficult to tat kind of get a wife moment, it's almost like a big black pit and your tempted closer and closer look into it and about time you've looked into it. You you're gone because you're you're your mind is not back into those no pathways by which your kind of doing and it's too late, so though the solution. I guess she saw subsidies just to get away, get avoid the circumstances, because there habits are so powerful strong theirs, so no networks. As a saying, no one's, that fight at a wire together, the more they fire, the more they become well trodden. what of neural pathways and then the movie

No, the easier is to then for them to then be fired again because we're good practices we we need to the difficult first, It's kind of your kind of trade created new pass. Your kind of food your way through vegetation, and sometimes we get lost in the wilderness. But if Surely I guess that discipline plays often we create these well chosen path by which we could maybe access those different states or active she's weather is firing over whether its being in an altered mindset, much easier. Hence conditioning hence pavlovian response the possibility to forge connections between of behaviour and external stimuli, if, indeed, there is an electro magnetic charge to neurology than it would be, magnetic sense that there is a kind of a pull towards it,

that when thinking of habit, if on some level, there is a neurological component to I e my relationship with chemical dependency, also or behavioral habits, they this not only as a kind of passive and neutral passage why, but also we are charged at, they would have a degree of appeal. I sense that you also pooled towards them There is a kind of that is vibrant that alive this, I fell when you were making that Well then, how am I wonder so if we were part of what europe is the attractive to may is solutions and we're talking about these ideas of whether or not a computer game can increase empathy or whether or not taking in this the kids down to a pasture

and giving him a connection with a butterfly and her thrash. Compare sounds of value down the line. I wonder if I, though, how we must consider our anthropological origins and the what what the conditions we are evolved to thrive in how, in any solution by thinking we should condemn cedar these serve eighty conditions of our species acknowledging that much of our scientific medical technological process has not been mirrored in back the euro, now, behavioral evolution and progress. I wonder if it Would you do you consider? Perhaps then the kind of decentralization could be an important path per political progress. If, if If we are to in iraq

to our decline. Do you think that much of the decline that you are describing is because of the concentration of power in certain financial and political institutions which ultimately end up following a certain path or the pattern, the concentration of their power prioritization of economic growth? Over ecological stability? and you know what kind of gold stability when you look at the conditions we currently in to beat me no progress, a rehabilitation care, so I wonder if they almost if this seems like I, so I very faint. Highly lucrative. Indeed, these are sort of general modifiers flight. You know trips for kids computer games that encourage it to be kind when really we all know where power is concentrated and power by definition, is what is causing the two current direct. of travel costs.

radical change required. Absolutely I mean just let you talk. one of your books, revolution is needed, and it's not revolution with with kind of spears and guns. It's kind of revolution in mindset, I guess that's what that's what I hope we will start to say and I think there is evidence that that kind of new kind of emerging consciousness is starting to become a bit more mainstream. I mean, of course, have you thought about it. It's been around for a long time they think source it's all kind of law, its along the way, I guess, if human history, but I hope that we can start to see a kind of mainstreaming of this kind of ecological view. Half of the world in a kind of ecological consciousness, You know some some of this. The things seem small, I guess in terms of small, that's an incremental steps, but I guess they the beauty of it is because we are all connected behind

is a kind of contagious. Those kind of changes in people's mindsets, you know, can really transfer and you can come to get its multiplier effect. and so small changes can actually accumulate to become kind of quite rapid tipping points, you know when we see social change over history happens very quickly, because you're gonna get me stepping points, I guess my hope is that this chain his they'll, be it a kind of an acceleration in and some of the the the smaller acts. What you know, why might cut to multiply at some point where we see these bigger changes, and I think that we can I suppose in the language of a revolution, is to overthrow this kind of hedge money. Of of kind of you know, domineering kind of economics of mine, about gonna monetizing. Consumerism. It's all up in it about,

selfish individualism. I guess and replace them with much more kind of firm, decentralized, collaborative kind of cooperative ways of living. And I guess you know, there's a role for technology. This is not about being luddites. Technology is important, but I think technology without kind of wisdom or internal, without wisdom is, is It's not gonna, do a study good and it hasn't than its very good. Here we ve got the climate. Changing we ve got biodiversity loss. We got ocean acidification, we ve got nineteen deposition, we ve got mental health crisis, we can reel off all these issues and it caused by a kind of structures the way the way we live in times of Ultimately, the maybe we'd biting the way we travel the way we interact with each other. To change all those things seem so daunting but actually set. I guess we tell us about right that started about mindsets, and if you can change people's mindsets, you can really changed fundamentally, the way they act in the world and they were

the way they relate to each other and that can contains very quickly this is not just a final optimistic note. There is a work in a way with a kind of old school in the sense of a kind of mindset of us off no co hawk anna different cohorts, ghostly time young It will now, I have a very different mindset and potentially will be very differently them than we think in the future. So actually Such aims can happen very quickly. In that way, we are when you see in our school kids kind of striking for the climate or for protecting biodiversity. It's it's the idea that maybe this ecological consciousness is because more dominant, you know, is perhaps seems a bit more realistic? I guess is. It seems that you ve hit upon something very significant in the how this is concentrated around our the way we identify. I spoke to you

he's kumar. Quite recently, he did a pilgrimage famously in the sixties. Him in a friend walked from india around about them at mine. If king Bertrand, Russell, I told, how, in the political sphere, there's a kind of disjunction between social justice advocates and campaigners and traditional blue collar or working class base for the traditional left he said. you can have no social justice without environment of justice. The rest of our conversation, we kind of concluding or postulate it that much of contemporary political activism is on aid on the video centric kind of ideas of steel approach, sofa, biff, fetish isolation of this? I am these, and this is who I am, and this is why one- and this is how I express myself and in a sense, whilst it is

posies much of the overt rapacious notice of what we would regard as conventional right wing thinking the object education can modification of the earth and the earth's resources, still in a sense does not address the. Requirement for there to be an individual, a toll for that dynamic to exist, and I often of the american indian, that's very described himself. Active russell made said the munich where they some is a suggestion that we should all become marxists because it was more in line with our thinking. But we see mark cap

Women communism is different sides of the same coin. Both philosophies regard industry as the apotheosis of human endeavor. Both regard the earth as a commodity, a beam of mind, a distribute it'll be tokenized. What you do with that product and I feel that what Russell made for saying is that you have to transcend materialism and to transcend materials. You have to transcend self has to be the first thing that goes. The first layer of the material world is the art the persona itself. Once you are beyond that, then all things become connected yeah, I think this idea of an ecological, I identities is quite powerful, and this is this: is it in the that has been used, a law that was it A strand of ecology called deep ecology, and I guess if it's johnny so take a bit more philosophy, the philosophy and ecology and there's a norwegian chap, could ani nice and he came up with the idea of ecological identity. where

how we see ourselves rather than just being me or kind of my family or my town You know if we see ourselves in the whole world, you know we see. Nature is part of us in this we talk about these nature connection indices. I guess the ways of measuring scale. They actually that's what those are measuring. How much we see ourselves steamer as integrated with a kind of other in nature or the people as well, Only nice was so speculating so say. Well, if, if we have an identity which encompasses the kind of whole world, each other, all the species and animals and other people, harming something trouble. not harming something on the other side of the world, it won't be of of altruism to do that because in all hard work and are you wanna? Do you want to kind of have that point? something, but you know you know you shouldn't, and you have to be altruistic. Gotta is hard work he said well. Actually, if, if we see our identity in those things, it

self harm damage them so slightly taxing the world protecting other people becomes an active self care. Let me say this in our families of a single. We don't think of your family is an active of self care away because we see ourselves as part of that unit. But I guess it's expanding that sphere of identity. The family, beyond the town, beyond the city. Dangerously. What we say now is you know, retraction, maybe towards more most xenophobia and nationalism, it's interesting what you said: your discussion with Satish kumar about you think social justice is theirs in, sent for environmentalism. Nothing is actually. Environmentalism is important for social justice, but I think you what's the other way round tours social justice is important for protecting the world's environment too, because Does the mindsets a kind of links when we have a very xenophobic minds, which is essentially a selfish, go ache.

density on waste, with distrustful of of of others and strangers, and we want to keep him out. Keep the migrants out and we become very nationalistic, would protect our country, even if it means people other countries will suffer in a way, we trust that sphere of identities shrinks. Become a racist to become more than a phobic and we also end up damaging the environment on the other side of the world, but in a connected world, that's a very of stupid game in away because it will just come back and by us, because you know all these issues a trans boundary. You know if we cause climate change which causes masculine migration, we're gonna. Those problems come over to us. So even when you, I guess we're we're talking to highly kind of right when people are so very nationalistic, and this idea that we need to focus on this big, trans boundary issues is still very relevant in them. but I think you ecological identity to me is is a powerful leave off social, justice and environmental protection that I did Tom, that is,

but we need to rescind egotism rather we need to take it to its natural conclusion. All things the self there till s self, the ultimate self all things into connected so extend this idea of protection and compassion, thereby, remove all boundaries of it. Consider it a kind of a kind of wonders- and I remember now something when you were talking about- excellence athleticism and the neurological correlative too, that in the case of say, an olympic archer. It. me think of the core quantum physics idea of the state of potentiality. Is that the way the possibility for all things exists until the decision is made

Then then, then, a reality begins to appear that when it comes to the individual or all beyond the individual, given that our definition of an individual is highly limited only by our the limitations of our senses, we wrote the book a light. So over that individuals, coaches societies can be realised as a result of choice and of an obvious thing, both almost as if those rights It is already existing waiting for us to fulfill them. That of the like a river like the riverbed itself, just waiting for the water to rush in it yeah yeah. I think it is it's likely that that's the true nature of reality and what we're seeing is a carnival illusion avail you know and where we're under this illusion and we need to kind of peter away and I away with with science, but also with those practices that we talked about. Your casino weathers adaptation, whether it's kind of community based activities, anything that kind of helps us too, to pull away that sense of egoism and

and that's why the book is not called self annihilate. The self annihilation. It's not about getting rid of yourself. It's about this about Seeing that the south, as we say in this isolated individual is it is a delusion- is an illusion, armful, delusion and actually that the hopefully the message of the of it. It is quite positive in that its about self expansion, it's about, seeing that we are actually a bigger entity or women were we're partners. connected network- and this idea that we are kind of these isolated, tiny items is too quite depressing, and so when you to see that it's you, I think it to me. It's of positive kind of firm hopeful failed yeah. Sometimes when I watch football, I spoke last time when I like become really

engrossed in the reality of the football match and like an approach, is west ham. Current events aside, usually engine disappointment and then have to serve on the take these prices. We're gonna die marginal, my actual life with the kids, a shit. I could just walk away from that. Certainly of one aspect of my reality will a comparable thing can be said of the entire persona, to which I have this appeal. In reality, this, I think, is a zen master, pang closer with two partial to the self. We have this constructive thing our entire reality is so bill or put off the shelf likes this. The self doesn't like that. Now in my meditation. I still take this sometimes when I'm thinking a lime winner in a ton of set aside for meditation.

I feel the eyes, because I've been unable to fall into my wider awareness, I'm too partial to the ks of the rhythms of my egocentric, an individual though, or what? If I do, that, what if that doesn't happen? I want that. I didn't like I should have said that earlier should need more of this, and this the partiality I have to these this set of pathways and experiences, this habits of the self and idea of what the tea meditate might yeah I, I do, and I also find quite personnel. instead of going out into nature and kind of niche, you know being connected to nature. So, even if it's just a long walk and not a kind of looking at a cut of natural landscapes and trees, I find that kind of sense of self so dissolving. in those environments more and I guess it that environment is important because it's like the kind of tenant seated,

to seek fatty food if we surrounded, if we're in a pie shop, it's very difficult to not one three pies. obsessed with pies. You keep mentioning ever taken too tight on fire, but I guess in the modern world you know it is actually is it's like that place. Shop, innocence which constantly bombarded with these messages of you, know individualism reinforcing what has actually already and evolved tendency partiality, as you put it wicked since I feel a sense of self, so we you know if everyone is an amazing thing, it's the sense of self has been. It is a survival tool. It's like a penknife. You know you need it in the woods, but also we need. I realise its limitations and not everything evolved his voice adaptive in its current circumstances, a kid as progress is moving indifferent, spades, snow happening on once, almost among continuum hey have you got any techniques for

integrate in an connecting tonight, shall I sometimes I'm in nature bomb, listen, insist upon cost or something I'm not profitably properly allow myself to experience. It is the things that you do to connect to it like not listen or forecast, and maybe touching stuff and getting involved yeah thank you, about. Well, it's I'm, not you! I get some sundays. You stick to kind of get there. record of of self switching off because it's just playing in kind of self mode and it's very difficult So then authors thoughts. Other days, it's easier, so united, it flows, it comes and goes. I guess I find personally that you had not been distracted, how you are having a phone or putting us whenever, but but actually the section element, so you know just looking at the kind of leaves entries in looking at the canopy moving on China just

being a mode of actually reception, perceptiveness, so you're, just looking at the colors and the shape the patterns and start with a small patch and tried in absolute details, see the colors the details in the world is in is in every Look you and away because of that connected this. So you can start with a very small patch and see details and then kind of gradually you of your feet view opens out another it does that I feel those kind of sense of of openness and expansion, connected pheasy tom alike, to consider you perhaps out in the bracken, studying a one meter square portion of a more looking at every butterfly ivory blade of grass before realizing. How could I not apply for off an hour and sprinting to the nearest griggs bakery elbowing the shop window, open into shouts and grabbing a sausage row? we will have a moments of a failure to have as their question about that. Professor Tom

you so much for explaining that I'm gonna read your book self delusion! That's right up my early, a scientific and to you know, materialist in the sense that its using data based stuff, of the nature of self and our ultimate integrity with all systems, no discretion between self and of a very big. Before mate, thanks for explaining that so clearly yeah! No, I I hope you enjoy it. I've tried to not make it too much source data. There's there's a bit about a kind of monologue of a of a might on someone's eyebrow, Oh, I like the sound of that so yeah. It should start to be a bit creative and playful, because I think that that kind of sense of play and and is, is important in terms of art and doing an art and science together is is important. I I'd like to see myself is not a kind of an ecologist in the strict sense spoke, but I guess, of interdisciplinary, into spray, explore as it were, to try to bring together those different disciplines, because I think

We become very soil in the white science works, and that's that's very problematic I always rushing around in our special. it means, but I, after we need to take a step back in emergency riddick climate climate emergency, we need to slow down as I said a workshop quite like the idea of slowing down and deliberating a bit born and pulling together the different strands. here? Where the hell is this rush, where we trying to get to that and say: selfie economic imposition, the idea of scarcity, the idea of competition, all these days mobilized and weapon weapon eyes to decrease the value of our experience here to decrease the truth of the union the underscores or apparent inspiration. Slowing down, I think, is an important thing. This path of life off the serfs, oppressive systems that if taken on and become so, I then Finally, with, I think, that's a real good, dear, and I also like your idea that you embrace the spirit of play in the way that you teach and communicate and asia

to get beyond these are official taxonomy that serve impede pro in communication by by their nature, yeah yeah. Definitely we're starting to see that, but it's a scam progress in there's a lot of kind of, especially in the way the system works and its dryness of breakdown. Those barriers in both again and let us know, let me know if there's anything I can do for you and I hope we get to communicate any great teacher. Thank you like an ostrich like Sicily at is thanks, professor thanks for listening to and the sky with professor Tom Oliver. Let me know what you forever on instagram tag me at Russell brand or tweet me on under the skin. Sorry, some of them rat mailing list and Russell brand new comer going to be back next week. I think it's going to be like carlo reval, a or less lousy chef perhaps if you ve been fallen hermes, good stuff, maybe I'll go, listened. Somebody out emphasise and under the scheme of new digress, thyssen and ill safety factor, Oprah, oh good stuff,

Thank you very much for listening to under the skin, from luminary