Hello and welcome to under the skin from luminary. This week I spoke with Thomas frank. Thomas Frank is a political analysed historian and journalists. As author of people now a brief history of Annie populism in his book he examines the origin of the ten populism in the united states and discusses historical examples of populism. Is adherence and detract is now here's some comments on the nick corporally episode k. We Jeff nice I see more people realize where we are headed. I'm an old punk from the eighties was two and nick curbishley yeah. They sound like digital ids and that's where kiwi jeffs, an old punk from the eighties- and I learned says kiwi Jeff all and back then not to talk about this stuff. No, I wanted to know now I'll nab, a loon in the bad things that I've that have been playing for way longer than you think fish and chips preventative see how you get into a new day than do the thing where you re. The next line would now just like.

She was ass, how efficient chips? That's how they talk. If you want to know the difference in new zealand people talking an australian people talking fish and chips, tat I can tell you can try while yet because they have smaller valve the G8 in this one. try a war that has served me reductive by your culture duke Erikson. This is why, in the last two years, I took up woodworking and gardening and spending much time outdoors, around a fire being less dependent on anything wise, luke, very wise, very wise. Have you done that if you going for a ten kilometer run, that's good day's work and then yeah? Finally yeah it was nice actually a moment ago. You throw them, I'm a life which bear the whole run. That's a long momentary. I would add that thank you in our activities as ex minutes at least impressive time. So you sustained, a good time he didn't get injured. I didn't get competitive. It myself

why have the woman telling me every kilometer how fast I was going? Oh well, she pops out. What's the one straw and then I get extra time for that app and I've not used it for awhile he's with those apps yeah. You done one hundred. What should go, you've done it and it was a good time for you. I want to get them back to five, I'm about five and a half at the moment, a five minute. I am you happy with yet a memory or running. I was under five to me about it right often the executing off into the distance. As he is, listen the shy shower for an apple porthos reviews, gal gordon. I just want to send love tee, a proper love, your put costs, you perspectives in the fight. You give a shit cause expert. How much are incursions help me gal? I love you thanks Russell. Keep it going, keep it real gal. I love you

If only you were in the united kingdom, you could go Russell brand dot com and come and see me until he comes to carlisle or blackpool and bristol these shows are absolutely fantastic. Our backroom doing live meditations there. Now I'm doing questions and answers is I'll. Tell you what, if you can come, get on Russell brand dot com get your ticket come and see me live b PA. his movement and if you're, not a member of my mailing list, also sign up to the mailing list. I'll tell you all the life things have got big event coming up soon, I'll keep teasing it, but imagine this one day event. It's in July, special guest, trying guess through the special guest is, do you know it. right, where you can guess you're your place. What, where is the clue? Where can we save? If I guess, on the puck, that painted stop podcast, guess who, with the special guy state that aim includes yoga and is a really good event. Also look at my youtube channel and subscribe to my side channel as well, where I talk about spiritual stuff, if you need a bit more, that kind of thing,

before we bombard you with any more promotional activities. Please listen to under the scheme of thomas right. I liked him use enthusiastic stay. Enthusiastic did you did you guys know each other before never memphis, like you, ve known each other forever at the beginning? These are really liked him like this. It's raining It's not a reunion, but, like a you know, I did listen to his commentary of his reading. It himself arrested into his audio book. You know I'm interested in populism, because populism doesn't have to be nationalistic. It does in in fact, as thomas rank describes. It can only really be a but like a left wing idea because it is about people should run their own lives, people's run, their own communities. That's what it's about, so that is rightly nazism. Isn't this a new thing called left wing preppers because of the way wrought prepping was more right, think ooh where'd you mean you're prepping prepping for off grid living god. We got prep we're prepping, have no food in mind. You got prep, I would die if the

the sudden I have other pandemic, did show enough. If I might die away, I'm gonna prep, it probably is, I am not an armored car accident, oh no, please! Above we got some at most gave. I want to stay alive, wanna be alive. No, let anyone texts in their driving, you don't let the driver to yes. Do you? Let them text now. Would you say, stop texting how'd you get round the driver. in stop. You can kill me why you say that for your you're, a you We sat next to nothing. What did you say thanks or even a new burrow friend? Alright, I'm in my I mean. Am I just be you, but I'm just conditioned texts. texting was really bad you're going to die. I can do that on your conscience forever that you killed. I wouldn't mind that site when you'd show a morose every day

do more ice I'll, go off. We shut down driven a bit. Bear that day what our text and drive I gotta tell you were pack it in you, mustn't delineate until mister, thomas thanks trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of category is not successful. That's exactly right! We're in this era, where it turns out, they were never fucking on walks beneath the surface of people, with more of the ideas that the finance on the history, the welcome to Russell brand, the thomas I'm so glad the joined me on under the skin, with what I would call an impeccable hair and an airline pilot style headphones mouthpiece combo. Thank you. Russell. It's great to be here. The reason I'm in

If knew this was before I met. You are hasten to add is because I, the subject of which you write, is a vital and vital one and one that is so still may yet define our times populism. Your afford most It's on populism, your book, the people now a brief history of anti populism. I am my own italics there. I think you know. Actually no naval is no one is italicized in europe and I do a telex with shouting says what I use for attack, but that's that's. How you're supposed to do asked will seriously that's like the rules of as a hard copy, as they say, and I have also been listening to the audio of your book and the reason is got one reason. Some time ago I see Steve Bannon. in the oxford union, not impersonal, just watched it on the internet and I'm not a I'm, not a giddy fan of steve, Bannon or anything, but he is if he walked through the use of protesting.

proud you know, raincoat, like colombo, you could almost hear the storm. The storm of discontent as well as a literal meteorological, want an atomic Any tell us he begins by saying none of you will ever on your homes You're all good- and this is the oxford union by the way so caught a lot of these kids from affluent backgrounds. None of you will ever need, so it tells the story of what happened after the two thousand and eight crash and of obama's decisions around quantity of easing and the lack of prosecute, and then he goes on to say: populism is the future or we decide is leverage right wing or left wing populism, so I thought wow listed. This is an interesting moment. We find ourselves having familiarised myself. Thank you, Lauren with your content. I want to know what you think four star is Bannon right is populism, the future. Are we just discussing which wing that we're gonna? U too,

In my opinion there there is no such thing as right. Wing populism there there are, there are people who mimic it and Steve Bannon would be donald trump would be, would be people that I would you know I would list, as as populism is that the sort of jeffersonian tradition in american life? It is a it is a democratic left wing tradition. Ah, you know it it. It is about building a mass movement, a transracial mass movement of working class people for economic democracy. That's what it is, it's what it's always been and it's a very power.

We're full tradition. Now you've got the you know this problem here in america that the democratic party, which is sort of the traditional bearer of populism- you know this is the party of franklin, roosevelt harry truman, Lyndon Johnson, etc. That party has really turned it's back on the populist tradition and wants nothing to do with it, and so what you've seen in its place is you've seen, and this has been going on since I was an I was a teenager, his his various right wing politicians mimicking this tradition will, if the Democrats aren't going to do it, they reason. If the Democrats aren't going to use this language in this way of talking in this way of thinking him, then then we'll do it ourselves, and this is this- is pioneered by a kind of the the great.

evil political genius of our times. A guy called richard Nixon and his adviser, pat buchanan, and ronald Reagan, was very good at it. Ronald Reagan had a whole host of advisers who would call themselves populist seven. It was ridiculous right, but it was all superficial. It was all it was just. It was just for show pretending to be men of the people or whatever you want to call it. You know pretending to be at war with what they called the elite and they sold all kinds of terrible, terrible, terrible thing. using this language and one of the reasons that they've succeeded at it by the way. This is my it's funny that you start out with that question because you just went went straight to like what is tom, Frank's grand theory of the last forty years. It's this that the Democrat

It's abandoned their sort of traditional position as the as the bearers of populism and allowed the right to steal it, and the right has gone from triumph to triumph in my lifetime and yours, ah, I'm older than you. I think, but like I'm thinking when when it satcher get her started, was seventy nine right? I mean that's really the beginning of this great turn and people even refer to thatcher as a populist. You know, which is just utterly absurd, but the right stole this language. and they did it. I mean right up front about it. There are all of these. You know books and articles that came out in the early eighties. Talking about the you know the new right as as a populist movement and then that the you know the newt gingrich does the same thing. Then the tea party movement does the same thing. George w Bush does the same thing. I have a book down in the basement should I should go to and that we should pause this. I should go down there and get it, but it's called like. Ah, oh my god, what is it called? It's like george bush's a rebel right, george bush.

It's helpful against the washington system rebel in chief. That's what it's called george bush is the rebel in chief, you know he's like yeah he's. He is declaring war on countries that didn't do anything he's like get out deregulating wall street at ease baling. These guys up he's a rebel russell only able to get away with this, can I get curse on your show? Yes, sir, they can only away with this bullshit. In so far as the traditional and rightful bearers of the populist tradition, don't call him on it and, unfortunately, that's what has been happening and the the the you know. The Democrats here in america have no intention of calling them on it and have a sort of you know recapturing

the the sort of populist legacy, and so it goes on and on and on. I've been writing about this all my life by the way yeah, it's it's it's in some ways. It's very tiresome to you know to repeat it again and again and again, and have nobody give a damn? You know nobody listens Listen when they live. When I am, I care now think about what you ve done is very kind of you, mister brand, but I'm here to tell you they they they listen. When I I used to spend a lot of time making fun of right wingers right it was fine and at the time nobody else was doing it to end. And that was very popular. But but when you, when you, you know when you turn the spotlight on the Democrats themselves- and you say, look, this is happening because you allowed it to happen. You know that then suddenly, the the humor drains right out of it and they, even though the laughter stops, and so these rhetorical flourishes and by

God, you ve got a few of your own. We ve already witnessed to have been able to be occupied and performed because of the air of wilful impotence of. left their own recalcitrant abandonment of the population that they were formulae aid to serve, making it possible implausible to act. and mimic those troops with ass, any tethered intention to empower Canary people and you made that clear in euros rank gambit throughout Europe is all about you, steal, yeah, steal them because no one day, if you not using them anyway, why not ask the alone? I appreciate that in your book you talked about. You talked about the the agricultural populist movements of think coined the term popular

one the things I'm interested in is how populism is come to be a kind of the word and do you think that's an indication of this are abiding love in that the professional class has of ordinary working, Oh my god. Yes, of course, now absolutely became they made it into a stereo type. They took the name of a really of of of you know of a a brave and even noble movement the people who made the what made up the word and turned it into an insult, and so this has always been committed to take a few steps back. Realism has always been a subject of a sort of an obsession of mine, because I'm I'm kansas. This is where I grew up. It was a movement that, back in the nineteenth century, Kansas was was pretty radical place was always signing up for this or that radical movement, and

in the eighty is that the farmers in Kansas got together and started a political party look over the legislature, you know tossed the republicans out is quite dramatic and there they there, their party was called the p. Both party, but they said you know it's kind of a clunker of a name. We, need to think of a better name? and one day I was, I was actually did the research and discovered where and when they They came up with the word and it was on a train travelling. from Kansas city to topeka, there's a road that I've. Never written the train from cancer to pick it, but I've driven that road. Many many many many times, but it on a train right from Kansas city topeka, and these these guys in the People's party were sitting around trying to come up with a with it, with a name and one of them and one of their friends who spoke some latin, said. You know, though, the latin word for people is populous. Why don't you call yours? populists? They are like that's great.

idea and within within days they had it in their newspaper they're, just some newspaper populists. The people's party had a lot of newspapers this. This reform movement in Kansas they had newspapers in every small, town and for whatever reason, the kansas state historical society, collected all those papers, and so they still exist. You can, you can read them and am I was wanted. tiny town, I mean what population like five hundred people fewer than that. Actually, edit We use the word populist like this. Is this is days after this train ride and eighteen ninety one they use the word populist with a big exclamation point, a gigantic type. You know populist exclamation point: are you a pop list they loved this word. They they knew, they were onto something right away that were very proud of it and it caught on

and it you know that it would have astonished them to learn the way we use the word today. Basically, the meaning of it has been entirely inverted: okay, because the populist party, this this sort of rebel group in the eighty nineties was exactly the opposite of every, but you know what a what people say today. It was not a racist movement by the standards of the day. It was the opposite. You know it was lobbying you go through? It was seen above all All of the the wasn't authoritarian it was deeply democratic. It was profound we democratic. No, they wanted to give everyone the vote. They wanted to protect the do all this stuff they wanted. To give. They wanted of. Among other things, there are the first political party to demand women suffrage. They had women leaders which

extremely unusual for a political party and ate. In fact, they did didn't exist for people in american politics and the eighteen. Ninety they were the only ones it did that, but you one right on down the list is a profoundly democratic movement, but it in the country on the sort of The people who own america perceived first, they laughed at right. There are like this is a silly. You know ridiculous movement coming out of Kansas, which is a ridiculous place. and but by the middle of the eighteenth ninetys, it was not a joke anymore. It looked like this movement of farmers and workers. I'd actually when commerce, by their got sorry from inception, two significant that five years, while so the eighteen nineties. When they first appeared on the scene and

eighteen. Ninety six is this sort of peak moment when the country is basically as polarized as is possible for for democracy to get people are you know Just so angry with one another, the the the the sort of the the people who run america are turning against populism en masse and denouncing it and there's this coming together. Of the elites? Try. I should go I can tell him the details of the story. Is kind of interesting is kind of fun. So this movement is a movement. It's it's a working, it's their very up front about this. It is it is a movement of working class people, meaning farmers and industrial workers coming gather against men police against the power of bankers, trying to demand a Democrat, more democratic electoral system, all this stuff this. This is what populism was about

and they wanted to see. His government intervention in the economy? They wanted. The government nationalized the railroads nationalize, the telegraph system, stuff, like this Lot of criticism of the media was involved in this. They, you know they were very critical of the opinions of the big new york newspapers of that time but basically it was a very familiar social democratic party. It's. This is about the same, I'm as the labour party gets going in england and in australia, social democrat, in germany in a man This is this, was that that this is what it was the same thing only. They call themselves populists and am. They they go from strength to strength just to go across the area, is separately in each then from what we would regard as the of the roots of communism, given that the winner uprisen ninety nine in seventeen, or is this in some way rooted in marxist principles it? Well it new who marks was, and they would they would.

Her to him in their newspapers. Like I said, the populace had hundreds and hundreds of newspapers and when you go to do research on them, that's how you do it. You read these papers, they knew who marks was and they would have. They would quote him from time to time, but he was not there. What do you know what I ve learned about marxists is that they regard marks as this as the great genius, the man who figures everything out populous did not think that they were set for them. The great genius was thomas jefferson. This, the man who wrote the declaration of independence. Aunt em and various other people like that they like Henry george, for example. There are. People associate with the british labour party that they really admired, but I'm their name escapes me now, but they were not particularly marxists. That you could call them socialists that would make sense in describing lotta their leadership any of that there their movement of farmers and workers. It's very hard times for farmers in america. Back then there was a permanent hard times for farmers,

and they, the idea was, let's figure out a way out of this, and let's use politics to solve the problem It makes sense right and the ruling elite of america enough for like us at first they laughed at them. But as populism went from strength to strength and then turn things started to happen. The economy went into a terrible recession. You had these gigantic strikes. In america, including one that was as close to a general strike, is we ve ever seen, it was a railroad strike they shut down. Everything is an eighty Ninety four and the leader of it, a guy called eugene debs, was a populist and then later became. leader of the socialist party in america, let that's years later, there is the first. March on washington, of unemployed people also led by a populist this stuff started happening? big election.

national election year comes eighteen. Ninety six, the president at the time was a Democrat guy called grover cleveland. The republic Canada was a guy called William mckinley and they agreed on the important issues of the day, which were you defend banks you defend what what was called the gold standard. You know what this was right: the gold standard. This was nice, a good guitar to explain that things. As the american The dollar was based on the price of gold at the time. So is the which pounds so are most of a lot of other currencies around the world. There is a you know: a universal gold standard and the problem with the gold standard is that the supply of gold doesn't increase very much. It's gold is, and so the price of gold does an increase in this is the eighty ninety is. The american economy is growing by leaps and bounds. This is one of the great periods in american capitalism. It was until the risks

our ability, so the economy is growing, the american population is growing, and the money supply is staying the same, and what that means is that the price that the the number of dollars in circulation canton you know, keep up with the the growing economy and so the value of the dollar grows and grows in growth, and this is called deflation. It's the opposite of inflation, you know and d inflation is, is something that is considered by economists to be absolutely disastrous, crushes people who borrow and most of us and farmers in the eighteen. Ninety were a debtor class; they borrowed all the time they borrowed every year. That's just that's how it worked when you were a farmer, and deflation was bad for well for a lot of other people, while anybody that borrowed it was great for bankers by the way, but both the republican ended

a crack in eighteen. Ninety six, I know we are, we are standing solid for the gold standard, there's going to be no reform. While we are in charge, however? In a million years, are we going to allow any this stuff to happen and then something absolutely crazy happened, like I said This is a time of terrible strikes, terrible recession. There is radicalism brewing all over america and the populists. Thank this is this is moment. We are going to china, we are going to win basically and then the democratic party. Together for their convention in Chicago in the summer of eighteen and six first thing they do like we're, not re nominating grover cleveland, the sitting, the united states? then they say and we're. Turning against the gold standard, They have a huge debate about it and they said we're we're done with the gold standard. We, the democratic party. This is one of the two traditional parties in america. It's been around forever

This is a shocker and then the next day they nominate for the presidency this through six year old congressmen from Nebraska by the way in the: u s, constitution, the cut off for running for president. You have to be thirty. Five, this guy was thirty six His name was william Jennings Brian he's the youngest candidate. Any party has ever nominated and in the end in american history, add he is the standards of the day of they people thought he was a radical he's. You know he gives this incredible speech today to the convention about us about what the gold standard has done to ordinary people. farmers to workers how it has ruined their lives and basically it's a it's a it's a it's a defiant speech that it's really you This extraordinary thing in the convention is moved to nominate the sky for president and the populists made in their convention in a week or so later.

and they said well. What are we going to do this guy just stole our our he stealing our language he stealing. This is a theme that will come up again and again stealing their language stealing our language. He just stole our main issue, which was the the currency. You know they wanted this currency reform. What are we, I do, and a lot of them were personal friends with this guy, William Jennings Brian, so they said well will nominate him also, we join forces with the democratic party and maybe we will get to choose some members of the cabinet or something like that A lot of the populace say no, no, no don't do it. Brian is not he's. Not one of us he's not really a radical he's. You know he's a Democrat, we don't democrats, etc, etc, but they do it. They make this. They make this sort of deal there yes, they're gonna to there they are going to join forces with the Democrats there all in on William Jennings Brian, and it's going to be. You know they call it. The battle

the standards. The republicans or for the gold standard, the Democrats in the populists are for what was called free silver, a silver standard. It's it's complicated russia. By the way. Just tell me what I need to shut up Keep going. Stop me, I I I'll I'll just talk and talk and talk, listen, I have questions and I have ideas, and I I want this to go in the same direction as you, but I've a really really enjoying your warm avuncular, passionate style. Your vivacious storytelling technique around the campfire and with you, the populists, have made a pact with the Democrats. Some populace think the Democrats are going to sell him out and are just using their language in order to gain their popularity and won't follow through on their on their ideals in a

of the standards in view. Would you bulked explaining to me the phrase the overstated, and maybe I was too complicated. Yeah did I get a different type of system for underwrite and the currency, both I'm cool with where we are now now what happens in this election and how the publicity spa they betrayed and how does the term become negative and how does the democratic republic comply become a sort of a shadow play, marianna senseless dance if democracy, while ordinary people, be they industrialists or agricultural, left out in the cold, where they remained to this day? How the verified mister brand ass? Well, you took the words were out of my mouth, but there's one has a really important, Well, there's one other one other aspect to the story: that's that's really amusing, and this is the part that that damn people can visit. My website see the sort of of the residue of this, which is the

establishment of america and by establishment I mean the capitalists, the bankers, The people at all in the large corporations media s- media, newspapers of the day, the society preachers academic presidents of universities. Economists. All of these people come together. There in a kind of hysteria about what is happening at the Democrats. The party they say has been captured by radicalism and though the word and their then? So they they start did they. Populism is no longer a joke all of us and they say: populism is like a threat to our way of life. Populism is going to do is, is is anarchy? Populism is repudiation, populist, is going to destroy everything that we have known and loved about america,

It can. I show you an image from that period. Pull it off the wall hold on this guy's incredible is just gonna grab a picture is to temporarily them the kennedys booker bookcase listeners, and here he comes with a cartoon image. Now this moment he's he looks for him. Yes, sir, I filled the time thomas, you don't need to worry now. Let's have a look at this cartoon of yours This is populism, and can't you see I'm their cases. I may is a french revolution. Liberty cap he's got a nice torch in thy like hands. These are some democrat. if the politicians in the back that are pushing him forward, are coming out of the west. You see the west with it's ruined banks and it's you know, failed system. These. These people are shiftless

there there there tattered there weren't there worthless any haven't they got some anti semitism and then there's like us, not not in this particular image, but there are other ones where there's a lot of anti semitism and anti immigrant up the used against populism. These are the respectable location, their waving, the flag of capital right? This is the ito. What does it say, the respectable democrat, honest citizen, capitalist, I'm, sorry, small investor, The banker and their running scared. Populism is gotta, Populism of buddhism looks like me right down to the heart is wearing that kind of its inhabitants, so they were like populism is, is robespierre? Populism is the french revolution, populism is, they say, here are some is mob rule. It is a bunch of you know, people that that basically

the short at what they mean when they start? They gin up this incredible campaign against Williams, things, Brian and and the populists is that this is mob rule. This is the idea of this is people who have no business running america. People have no business in controlling anything. The worst elements of society, as I would put it, are trying to tell us that, in a respectable the bankers, the financiers that the able the best in the brightest there try to tell What to do there trying to tell us how to run things? This is the world turned upside down, is what populist anti populism is. Fundamentally, a least there that's the word it that's all I made that up though anti anti populist, I thought I made it up once I published a book. Of course I discovered other people have used it already, but yes, so there's this. What I discovered his ears is tradition of this of despair,

eyes in populism. In exactly these terms, it's it's a form of mental illness, its rule it's the disreputable trying to lord it over their betters. All of that stuff. There is a dish of this that goes from eighteen. Ninety six right now it's happening right now, especially happening but I've seen em and is brilliant leave, em unable to convey its origins in this fashion. Now, if I could just a direct to tears of more recent, was it declares question? I'm sorry I should I should like to finish, but the question is: how did it go from being this? Is this right wing stuff, defending cap some defend anchors, etc. This is the republican party saying this stuff. How and there are hacking a party on the left, a labour party right, a party of workers who are very liberal, etc, etc. How did it go from being? Did anti populism go from being a a technique, a rhetorical

rhetorical technique of the right, a very successful one, by the way they demolished a crush populism very successfully to be, a rhetorical technique of the left, think I I can that, because because parties are fundamentally aristocratic and the latest and represent the same set of interests and whilst both aids are willing to use the lexicon of populism because it has fundamental truth in it the way or have fraternity solidarity quality that we all empower ordinary people and, whilst thereon necessary value systems that may or may not lead to hierarchies what we don't it is what we have now: a globalist technocratic, this Tokyo, where ordinary people are not only dispossessed, but they are slandered, abused This allowed amours required precisely now in this moment, is a new form of populism based true to its original principles. Democracy. The thing

we offered and pledged continually community is run by the people for the people. This is precisely what needs to be or good in this historic moment this moment now whether democrat pie, at present populism, as I as you were in the terms that you have outlined as a mob rule as a vulgar right to use another latin word lines. Nice neatly with popular re. So what do we do? That? Many of the conversations that have thomas are about the the plausibility ability of ever again inhabit the democratic party in a meaningful way. We ve seen the Bernie sanders experiment file. We ve seen the democrat pie would rob lose two trump than win with burning with shame, then, by way of, but don't was not brush off Bernie so lightly that there is still life in this tradition and sanders is the Bernie sanders is a sort of is the

the bare of it and here again, but we do not require a lot of recognised that by its happened it file, it's not coming back. We ve seen have a democratic pie handled it. Well I want to talk about is what now now. Where do you think american politics as day of american politics and like I said, I hope that trickle down economics works, at least in some ideological format, and that britain will eventually receive the way trickle trickle down is that that is a phrase that Bryan, william Jennings Bryan, coined more or less. He that that's where it comes from with it. Got your brimming item ex ante or that that's where that phrase candle shifting in your chair, your fat click your cultivation, he has resigned. Fruit crush why I want to ask you is what kind of political me like this think for a moment about like a european politics? They arise of put them on the rise, sir. It say that ran over came about in that same post, two thousand and one moment of disillusionment and now

in the light now that we have failed democrat party now that we have a republican pie still harping after trump now in british politics, where there is a dispute and disillusionment on mass in this post pandemic erupts on the precipice of apocalypse. Where do we go with populism, what kind of pledges do we make? What vehicles do we use? Can they become an inn, national, globalist movement. Do we need to still be confined by nationalism? Where do we go with Paul? elysium. Now is about getting the influence within existing policies, or is it about it create a manifesto and creating our own structures adjacent to bipartisan models. Oh Jesus, yes, quite a question, mister brand: what did you think I do yeah so

You know it's! It's much will come to this in a minute I, but it's much easier for me to talk about the past, because you're historian yeah or I used to be one anyways. I mean I even than monastery set say that Even you been historians, history yeah? He has that's right. No! I I write this right if there's a big part of this book that is actually what they call historiography. It's a history of historians of fascinated by that, but I'm much more comfortable. How about that than about about about? Where do we go because I'm I mean what does the passages does? It seems to me that reason: you're right, I'm I'm like ice is. I can tell you what I've always argued tell me: What were the romantic things, but the populist movement was that it was the last successful. Third party movement in our history they have these- were these were people that they had given up

the two main parties and started their own, and they were they were. There were fairly successful. I mean by the time they and by the way, after eighteen, eighty six just to wind up the story. They they, after they had sold out to the Democrats and the Democrats got beaten in this incredible torrential downpour of anti populism by the way, backed by the largest sort of war chest we ve ever seen in american politics. After that, the popular party fell apart, pretty quickly and, and that was the end of it and after it fell apart. The various states where it had been strong, all passed laws to make sure that it never happens again that you never had another third party or another serious third party challenge to the two main parties, and this took different forms in different states. And we need to go into that here. But wine, except.

one way in the south. What they did is a disenfranchised people. They disenfranchise the black population in a lot of poor whites, and that was in a lot of states done overtly to make sure that populism never happened again, that you never saw this effort to bring together working class people like that, our farmers and anyhow, they did all the various things to make sure that you could never have another successful third party movement and, unfortunately, up a lot of those laws are still on the books, not the disenfranchisement stuff, but allow the other stuff that they did and which basically means that it is impossible in this country to challenge the two parties, which is deeply frustrating and deeply dysfunctional in all sorts of ways, because I mean this is something I am sure you are aware of. The two parties are forever coming to agreement with

one another and things in refusing to debate the real issues they do. This all the time say that question of trade, you know or reagan and george Bush sr negotiated these free trade deals Clinton and the Democrats got them pastor, like yeah we're all. We all agree on this stuff. Well, that's not very healthy for a democracy to have debate about these bags. You know there are so many other issues. You know that all this all the things associated with neo liberalism, the two parties came to agreement on that. Well, that's bullshit! the amount yeah. But if you, if these, if these factions control, the party machinery and you can't get through. Then it is very difficult in this country and so that for a lot of people are drawn to populism, because this kind of romantic moment when our ancestors broke away from the two party system and challenges challenge it etc. But I don't even know if that's possible anymore,

It's a brand and I'll just tell you, my all my life, I have put my faith in these sort of you know insurgent movements within the democratic party. You know I liked Jesse Jackson, when I was in college, I thought he was the greatest thing in the world. You know I like I like Bernie. Second criticism ito. Basically, you I've fallen for all series of these guys, howard dean, you know, and I keep counting on them to succeed, one of these days gotta, I I thought obama was like the greatest thing in the world at you know, I'm I'm open to up to. Basically anything because I don't my my route has not succeeded. What's fascinating those it in the republican party this this asshole billionaire, this tv billionaire, was able to go in and destroy it and to wreck the establishment of the other republican party that was actually kind of inspiring when trump utility of the seventeen report,

the kids are whenever he beat all, including as a representative of the bush family, that was, like that rounds among these large matt tybee about that on they show and he was so of covering that election and indeed the prime reason. He said that, though a wonderful moment was when he pointed out that job bushes campaign ma am manager was a member of the johnson as in johnson and johnson, family and tromp was people to say: do you think this guy's going to regulate farmer prices? His campaign manager is from the pharmaceutical industry, and here in microcosm we are able to see how the rise of right wing populism is due to inertia and inactivity on the left to heat. The fishes that opened up for trump are justly and deftly occupied. What I'm going to say to you now thomas, is what does Paul

you look like in government. We ve seen how it rots rhetoric can be mobilized to create votes and to create thorough success. In the event of a true populist government rising up what does it look like the evolution, confederacy empowerment of community, more direct democracy? What does it look like? What are the principles that are at play? we actually have a really good example of that. It looks like the the the the presidency of franklin, roosevelt here in america. This guy was as close as in his successor, Harry truman. These guys were as close to the populist tradition as it's as it's possible to get used a lot of the same language as the pop

it lists there was a whole sort of. Ah it was the era of the common man. There is kind of a ah this cultural faith in ordinary people that swept over america in the night in the course of the nineteen thirties. You know what I'm talking about the sort of wp a art up these murals, that they would fit together would pass on post office walls and stuff, like that, I ll give you a seat. I now, I think, done by free two kilos, husband, yes, for that down. But that was not a that, but that's a perfect example of a diego rivera is one of my What are my heroes and there I was in the movies of frank capra, which are all about the sort of the wisdom in the basic goodness of average american citizens, especially when they're thrown up against these conniving banker's and stuff like that. But I can see why, where the problems lie, because

is this kind of folk politics? Isn't it and another way of saying folk? Politics is vulc political and you know which direction we're heading in now, so wait a minute. I've talked about the guy that kicked hitler's ass, I'm talking about free FDR here. We were that way. We this is like it. You may have These are often not with a wheel but in no position to kick it now. Never I bet I know, but I mean seriously the of the desert, bearer of the spirit of populism in the nineteen? Thirty was a labour union here in amerika called the c I o, which stands for congress of industrial organizations, or something like that they were militant, they were a mass movement. They would sign up anyone as opposed to in the past. ass american labor had been like focused on you know, highly skilled, etc. Like that syria woods would sign up in buddy and they were militarily anti racist. If you go back and look at their at their pamphlets and their literature they were of, this was a big part of their of

creed and of an ad. Obviously they were they were. They became very close to the roosevelt administration. Their leadership did, up the hugely massively into the war effort against fascism, and so I would say you know that that is. It is thanks to Popular mean america, so many of the country in in western your bed, no idea what to do during the nineteen thirties or system was falling apart, but in this country popular I mean the thirties was. This was an era of fantastic political success and great enough social advance in this country. This is when you get the though the welfare state is put into position is when we first are regulating big business. The whole party- The agenda gets enacted, we actually they weak, went off the gold standard. They finally got their way

this is all roosevelt in this instance when you, when you're describing this utopians, is somewhat about of again rhetorical flour and a pair of political, starlings and aesthetics, I e, a kind of terrorism reality to biology to grass socialism, you not like there's no light war is distinctly popular out in government as opposed to socially. We don't know where we don't use that word horse. We don't use that word here for frankly rosabella way, we need something else it so, though the populist is the word that I choose, but but he basically enacted a whole lot of the populace programme. All that stuff about up. You know they broke. He broke off. The bank's among things. Member and sanders was always about returning to that here, the all of these of farm programmes basically got overcame the farm crisis once and for all. You know you go right now,

this. These are very. These were very real changes in american life. I mean and they manifested in the most massive way. Is a time when wealth in america basically becomes democratize? This is the birth of the middle class and by the way roosevelt was eaten massively popular, One real action on in these kind of christ Overwhelming ways, by the way, the there, the republicans in nineteen thirty six roosevelt's up for reelection, the republicans, basically dust off the play of eighteen. Ninety six. They like we're gonna, try this again and they all together at once again a gathering of the elites and they they gin up this kind of his. Area, about class war and less the members of the community trying to lord it over that their betters and there's a lot of racism mixed in with us, because this was the heyday of scientific racism and they would you know the the

on the bottom or on the bottom, because they are biologically some meant to be honoured by all this kind of bullshit right and roosevelt destroyed them. He absolutely cry them in one of the most like overwhelming electoral wipe out of all time, and so that it is, anti populism completely failed and that the sort of populist strategy I romped and roosevelt is the most successful he won. He was reelected four times and then Harry truman, who is his vice president, went and took over when roosevelt died got elected a fifth time. All of it each time with this deeply populist language in some ways was even more so than roosevelt. Truman was our last president. You didn't go to college, who had actually been a farmer in Missouri and also as the first president that was really can

to civil rights. That was the first time that happened was was was Harry truman but yeah, but budget, and that was for most of my childhood- that was those guys built system that all that we lived in they built the middle class society they made it all possible. You know the interstate highway system suburbia. You know going to ca, it basically free higher. Education are very, very cheap, higher education. All that stuff and as well as the social security. You know, medicare that will that came a little bit later, but this was all stuff that they had done. and we lived in that world and the Democrats were the dominant party in america up until nineteen ninety four, the dumb, party in america because of that legacy, because that was so popular right, Obviously, it served the vast majority of people

in this country who are yes working class people. They, I dunno. If this is if you're aware of this mister brand, but working class, people outnumber the rich Let me just have a quick look at how a proletariat was seen as the cause fat cat itself that I see yeah that that a lot of stacks up to them, but then they, the democratic, we decided, beginning in the seventies and gaining speed in the eighties that they were going to turn their back on this tradition, and they were that the new deal was over or that it needed to be over something like this and we'd entered a new era of globalization and high tech, and all of this crap democratic party needed to become a party of a different group who they would they kept. They came with all these different terms. For them they would call them the creative class or the learning class

wired workers- and you know who I am talking about here- are people with its white collar people's advanced degrees. Well to do, and that's that's what they day day, deliberately decided to abandon the roosevelt legacy and to become this their thing and they did it and they lost congress. It they had congress from the year. Nineteen thirty two the year. Ninety ninety four with two very brief interregnum and then they lost it and they ve never got it back and they're, not the majority anymore amazon. You talked about how, like that, how populism first emerges from a time of great polarization d, fill that america is at such a time right now, once again, a time of mass cultural polarization, and do you think these could counter intuitively once more?

form the bedrock for a new emerging form of politics. We yeah, of course, definitely looked at the polarization that's going on. Now is just it's! It's it's off! you know it's all about culture, wars and question, of taste and manners, and you know, and of the people in higher ed well, basically, people in authority all over the country constantly reasserting their authority against anybody that questions it. It's it's it's None of my another. My issues are her or even on the table. You do ok with a few exceptions, but the stuff that I care It doesn't matter anymore, but I keep looking back at this history that I just described. This is this is my problem. Russell brand and I've said the same thing over and over for twenty years and I'm frankly kind of tired of it. But I look back at that history. You know that

that that that a democratic party that was oriented towards populism triumphed and did great sings, And one world war two and roll back the depression and built the middle class. You know and built this country, it's all thanks to that. And it also was you know popular. these guys, one you know constantly for fifty years, sorry for sixty years it went on and on it rolled and rolled enrolled. Why would you turn back on that. If you're the democratic party, why would you do that ice. I honest to god. To this day I dont get it No, what works? They know how to win. They just won't. Do it? Was the reason is that there are ultimately controlled by the same set of centralized interests of historically dummy

It's the republican party and that it took some time to interrupt that potential conflict between two wings of a political system, one of which was less favorable of the whites. Do we have to fund both of them and he sure was The result of an election, the outcome is evident. That is exactly right, buddy. Well, it's not exactly right, but it's it's it's close and that's the the I'll, tell you a little anecdote so and just it I wrote this book what to twenty years, go now about the republican party. It was called. What's the matter with Kansas will will it will? I could tell you all that the joke about the title some other time, but it was about the republic party reaching out to white working class. People this sort of traditional rank and file of the democratic party. and and how they did it using very populist language and they ve, and they succeeded- and you know

I said at the time this is there's a really easy way to stop this. You know yeah, you can appeal to these people with these cultural issues and you can you can make up new culture war issues all the time which, as we know, that's what they do right, fox news, etc, but there's a really if you're the Democrat, There is a very easy way to stop this right, because these are these. Are your traditional voters these is a reason they used to vote for you. You know figure out what that reason was and you can get them to vote for you again and there's been ro interest in doing that: zero all the interest. Just in now in scolding those people, scalding them scalding them scolding. calling them names, and it's like that's not going to solve the problem and a bit In that, in that time something really freaky has happened, and this is what I want to tell you about, which is when I was young, the democratic party was you know that the party of roosevelt etc, the party william, Brian and they didn't have a lot of money.

they would win elections, but not because they have a lot of money. They would win elections because they had more of them. They were, they had the people, the republicans had the money. Like reagan, what the revolt republican candidates for the presidency were always better funded than the Democrats all like. If you look at reagan, verse mondeo nineteen, eighty four of just a wipeout reagan out raise it out spent in by your five to one or something like that, and The really freaky is happening the last few years and it began with bill Clinton, which is the Democrats when they they started. They became friendly with work street, they joined in the neo liberalism, deregulating wall street, they joined it on the free trade agreements, and this to be able to raises, as well as the republicans and you with morocco, brok obama actually out raised John mccain in two thousand eight, as I think with it with the with the finance

industry, but it may be an overall and then Hillary Clinton, massively outrage, donald trump, and so did so did Joe Biden, and so the issue is entirely on the other foot. And let me just tell you about that. So I grew up in this part of kansas city It was very well to do like really like, like ludicrously like flaunting your money kind of place, Family was not like that, but I grew up among those people like there, the children of the ruling class, where my playmates right they were I owned the place they own kansas city, they own the state of kansas and those people were I thought at the time when I was a kid. These are the most republican people. I'm ever gonna meet my life. The republicans told every local office,

if everybody was, I mean, I remember once going to vote, I was I was a registered democrat. This is in the eighties and I went to vote and they had this thick book of all the registered public and names that the names for the rich democrats resist a single seat of paper, while that name, heard mister brand just went for jobs. when every single precinct they ve completely flipped. The ruling class of that city in that state has completely flipped it. it is the freaky assisting and my whole like life was defined. You know it's a little punk rocker and all that shit, and it was all the fun by being not being those people, now. What do I say? Suppose thomas you're going to have to start not the party or participate at least in another party that adheres to some of the principles that, as you say, I did the democratic party, so

but even in the inception of populism, you can say that there was a pact that undermined its efficacy and even with the interruption of roosevelt there and truman, I went on a who, whom I tell you, I was my lyndon Johnson- that's where it all broke broke down because Lyndon Johnson. Also, great guy on domestic frank at the civil rights bills. Past got medicare passed, but then was like hey I got this great idea, the view now war, turning do like list was just broke, the part of the democratic party and half broke them into, and they ve never recovered from that anyhow, I'm sorry, you you you you, you didn't want to hear any of this crap I just I I just blab and blab. I apologize. No, no, you say you're a fascinating man. What what I'm interested in now is what we do with the situation where we, where there is a requirement, seems not for a rehashing of

the kind of politics, have seen in the last twenty five years since nay, nay. For when nam the democrat pie, you changed its funding policy an end, since the republican pie, were able to a populist rhetoric with no fear of repast from their opponents do what I'm interested aligned way you put that went away. Thank you why browse it right post, but that's from kansas? Surely, ultimately a french word, but I would say, if we're going to angler size it this do with an englishman, our You got it my subject. My area of interest remains the application of populism in a left wing context. Now It's my earlier point about banning, ban and understood something: and and their leaders, ghettos either what his fear he died and in tat began and before him, and I and Karl rove also are these all of these kind of

and there's another guy called richard vigorous. These are all these kind of political geniuses behind the republican party and they all they all have been deeply into swiping populist rhetoric from the other side All of them know the value of that, and it only goes forward It only succeeds because my team has has so given up on all this. yeah and I will ensure that yeah not willing to implement populist policy which tomorrow and I and the language they won't. Even they want even talk the language the language in and of itself to the truth isn't, what we have seen that you can use the language and create a least result. You know what what I'm interested in is what it looks like as real politic what it looks like whim when ordinary people are able to govern their own communities, are able to disrupt the power of the establishment pillars

I are able to eyes their back country, they occur. this by a man may often in accordance with ordinary prince was just what we ve got now a hollowed out institutions hollowed out Community is, and I think so I now, in this somewhat fee, brawl time in part, because there is no access to democratic process for ordinary people's crazed, lethargy, apathy and, conversely, rage and arrest. That change our amiss and then move in emerging, fit it it's, and so you, you're, putting your finger on a really important part of the tradition which is of the populace believed in mass democracy. I mean they really believed in this and they believe in settling everything by the vote now this does not mean that they were anti intellectual or they thought that stupid people should rule. They thought that this is democracy. This is just what it is. You have to educate the people if you want them to understand thing: mass education via pamphlet,

her books or I don't know, podcast or whatever, but but but Democracy is essential and they are forever, coming up with schemes to open up more and more parts of political life to devote to democratize things. I think we're heading in the opposite, and then remember. Populism was crushed by these these guys in the south that took the vote away that the disenfranchised a huge part of the southern population, and we are- I mean- that's not on the table right now, but you see echoes of that on both in see the right and in this sort of professional class left- the right obviously is forever coming up with gerrymandering scheme. I mean a ways of of of of cheating. You know at at at the cheating at the ballot box,

and in an winning in that way. They do this all the time in america, but there is so. tediously a surrender among liberals on you know they didn't believe in democracy anymore. If they think that you know you let people I have a say, and they will demand a say in like how their children are taught which, by the way, is totally healthy normal. This was issuing across the river from me in virginia in this last election and my team damage That's are against that now. You know we're all about as expertise and we're even about what it with blows. My mind is we're even censorship. Now I just a kid, the change in my lifetime has been so incredible. You know when I was coming up as a as a as a young liberal. That was like one of the defining things of the the movement that I thought I was signing up with was that we believed in in in free speech. We believed in everybody having their say, even when their opinions were

give a reprehensible, and now you ve got these Democrats, who are forever leaning on social media companies to stifle certain voices, and it's gotten much worse. During the during the pandemic, I mean I wrote a while ago on sunday, what's the lab leak hypothesis and we still haven't figured out whether you know where that were covered came from right. We still don't know the answer to that is not definitive one where the other yet, but for long time you could not even talk about the possibility that it that that this that this pandemic began, as some kind of lab accident by the way and been lab accidents in our not employ as happens all the time. You couldn't even talk about that because this sort of forces of professional authority had persuaded. Social media companies that this was

impermissible that this was an unacceptable conspiracy theory. Now that my friend, that is nuts and that's my team, doing that, having lay said love, people just don't know their fast into circumstances showed that I'll have it within a love that sir Thomas. Thank you so much. That is good. a magnificent our conversation of education of illumined. Now, I'm just graduated restarting www aid, where it will be on noise hit us was that was the experience and magnificently was to unpack. So much there is a great deal about. Populism is reappropriation there. The misuse of semi optics ace, been of their funds, conversation I for one I believe, and I will get an opportunity to speak again and bitter and perhaps even collaborate on but spoke little projects have a few ideas for for you, and I see what I've gotta get one

now. I know what I was about to some other time. I really love that thomas is so lovely to talk with you. You will find tat. I am sorry that I talk so much less well. You're here to do is exactly what we need you to do. Your perfect, enthusiastic guessed, you bring it you'll evil illustrate your story so beautifully out captivated. Thank you are at risk of that. kind of your lovely man. Thank you thank you for listening to under the skin. That is Thomas frank. We've just been chatting to. Let me know before we're on instagram tag me a Russell brand or tweet me. A rusty rockies with a hashtag under the skin, remember come and see me on to blackpool. In particular, I'm hawking cause. I've got massive venue right and like platypus middle of nowhere, people are gonna know, in meditation, that even if you've been to see me before, comes the makings. I want to do additional meditations and questions and answer in blackpool in particular. Go Russell brand I'll come get your tickets now also if you're not meditating, get above the noise you've already got a's free, if paid for it by being a luminary subscriber every week. I do a guided meditation and if you enjoyed this

station one? It isn't John Barnes! Why? At class and economics clock was really cool, John Barnes, british footballer, brilliant? I will listen to him or Sarah chayes. She also felt pain in grassroots, grasping she lives in the cabin and there's a reminded me of america. Maybe that was just me you liked the pastoral I got it. Okay, keep checking out it's? U channel for new videos and thank you for listening to under the skin, from luminary