You are listening to under the skin with me Russell brand this week on the scene from luminary therapy. With a curious thing, without that luminary. There is nobody bloody podcast, though they might It might be very reliable because it's not going to be well organized, it's not going to be properly financed bear you are not eighteen, those cupcakes well done the mirus demise birthday. Let's register that, maybe one day in the future you'll, you won't be twenty four anymore. I mean that's a certainty in fact, and and you'll. Listen back to this and the oh, my god. I was twenty four and while I was out so this is that episode of empire skin with Seth Abramson surface the american professor attorney ofa and pillow comic colonist in the podcast. He listed all the things he's done for java. I nearly threw the computer out the window ridiculous. How many things he's achieved mastery of his you're in ledger, books, proof of corruption, bribery, impeachment and pandemic in the age of trump released this year. Proof of collusion how trump portrayed him

since when eighteen me certain, I found a trump, but this conversation we add what were always very much waving the flag for what you know, tough on trumped up on the causes of trump. You know. So, what's the point and in fact we got to the point, we are saying that you could take trump out of this whole problem and the problem will be almost the same. What's the point, a fetish icing trump and I feel like that was one of the rare moments where I came across the cleverest blocking the chat. What do you think Jan need. I believe that to maya yeah right, let's go. Do you think that the subjects of MARC otte caused these? I think I'm clever. The new, in spite of your job

me, oh well, I'll tell you now, I think of you because of your job, because it is no it's. No, I'm actually here to learn and we're thinking of creating courses around under the skin. So if, under the skin university, as it were, sounds a bit weird actually, when you think of skin like that, and I'm sorry about that was unpleasant anyway, let's get some comments from Kate nelson. Before we crack on with Seth Abramson, who was charming, informative, brilliant and bright mischievous, fantastic, wonderful episode, I'm thrilled with it. now here's some comments from kite, nelson france, sheikh s friend she comes. What would the jet did? Did you just then talk a great love, phlegm down your throat? I had a real washing sound. I heard you shivered, but from sheer flynn what we discovered I really directing the lamb levin

directing the flame listen. Listen to this back there was an pastures, not necessarily swarming Just three ladys swallow singing a song singing their siren song, look jenga flip yeah. I see he was diagnosed by an acupuncturist as being fleming that acupuncture spend a lot of pressure. Start. No. She was kind enough to admit that sees mutual smokes. Sublime size of tennis, ball gather it accumulated in the gutters of my guild, serve at the front of friends. Seek I'll just go as enjoyed it, you bringing so much to this community man thanks friend's sake, you obstacles loved it. Your episodes almost made me think in a different way. Gareth Evans kept it real. That was refreshing if you want to follow me on twitter instagram,

to get to talk, and it knows things then of course do but more importantly, sign up for the now honour russia branda come and get information on live performances. Let my shows that there are london palladium there in ready in oxford, socially distant, safe performances. If they can't hold you up to get your money back really should be wicked. Gigs november I've oxford november, twelve readying november fifteen a place called Lando Her talk this out during your so busy sluicing dounia surplus salon, he's gonna, get it palladium. Whenever him too far, We gave it a palacio office on page they didn't have to flip over. For you miserably in what you ve done is even now the gig on the fifteenth of november at a place called Lando. Don't even exist, go Russell brand Brandon.

will tickets and more killer geographical information about the citys in which these events will be taking place. Check out my youtube channel, their spiritual leaders did good ones die it was a video on panic, panic, don't panic, don't panic! all public less, because I don't panic panic if you want, but you still less of it. So you have to listen to surf abraham cinemas, thoroughly, discrimination trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of category. Nor successful, that's exactly right, we're in this era where it turns out. We were never works beneath the surface of people. We admire the ideas that the finance on the history and welcome to Russell brand and safe. Thank you So much for coming on under the skin. My pleasure, Thank you for having me

Their notes that you sent s of forced me to enter into an educational territory. I didn't anticipate because of when he took it about you, come in on. You said what does russia wanna talk about? meta journalism, hoddan it ma. Am modernism? U s domestic policy, you as foreign policy, and I am not a while I'm gonna- have to really concentrate now. Yeah I've gotten into a lot of different things over the years? What a given You ve got your new book out proof ah of corruption or conspiracy, corruption, of conspiracy, was twenty nineteen and I ll tell you what are you? What are you most? wanna talk about cars, like I love like the people who turned me on to you- and I are you gotta check out this guy surf Avram sin is amazing, honour, like verse of collusion with the russians and analyses of the trump presidency and

what is it is causing you to have this furrowed brow, this look of intensity, this sense of purpose that emanates from your face here on the screen. What what is it south was? What's troubling you? Well, I think there are a lot of people who are talking about trumps domestic policy, his foreign policy, what a danger he is to the united states into the world, that the question that I've had for several years now and that I've been implicitly asking in the proof books is what is it about our current, our current journalistic landscape? That is enabling donald trump to be as effective as he has been at corrupting. U S, democracy, our institutions, our rule of law, because there something more than just his native skill set, which in many respects is actually kind of limited, there's something that is receptive in a man

he culture that is allowing the the poison that I think he represents institutionally, morally and historically, to spread more quickly than it otherwise would, and that's why I became a met. A journalist is, I think, that conventional journalism might be what's enabling donald at this point: will you tell us what mary journalism mains, even though I have personally looked up in preparation for this interview short, so you a lot of people think that there is too little great investigative journalism right now. They talk about the prevalence of fake news and fake news websites, and of course that is a problem, though it's actually kind of separate from the conversation of journalism, because He was isn't really part of journalism. Conversation at all. The theory of meadow journalism, which is a meadow modern, sub genre of journalism, is that there is actually too much great investigative reporting right now for any one person to consume even a tiny fraction

So what you need is you need a meadow journalist to compile curate and connect. Thousands of stories from around the world going back decades. That tell us what is happening in our present moment by giving us a historical sense, a much broader sense of the present, and when you have that broader sense of the present, you get a better sense of the through line into the future that we can anticipate based on today's events. Right now with our corporate media culture, the danger is every breaking news item is a news product that is being sold for about seven or eight minutes by a cave news network or by some corporate media entity, and the result is that we, Have no horizontal sense of all the other

boarding happening on the same subjects around the world and we don't have a historical sense of how many of these topics have been reported on previously were. Essentially, we have tunnel vision as news consumers, and that is very much to donald trump benefit in twenty twenty, Isn't there call the template that you describe as constitute in journalism, is self problematic because of the impossibility of any kind of objectivity when creating these narratives? When q writing these perspectives on they can a base or subject to the I'm scepticism that would be applied to hiv. The mainstream media in the kind of attitude towards broadcast news that trump himself espouses is that one of the main propagate as if the fight night fight news idea, One of the reasons that I say that met a journalism is a meadow modern, sub, John raw of journalism.

Because the foundational metaphor of managerial journalism is the same as the fao. national metaphor, formatted modernism, which is the dominant cultural paradigm of the internet age, and that fact, national metaphor. Is the network why's that important it's important, because in a network the more data points you have, the stronger the network becomes and the less likely that the corruption of any one data point would destroy the entirety of the network. So what I'm doing as amount a journalist is I'm trying to cure eight? Thousands literally, I mean the proof series has twelve thousand viewer bull citations among the three books and their fifteen hundred ages. The idea is that, if any one note in that network were found to be weak in some way, it wouldn't change the congregation of meda narratives that the network represents, in the same way, frankly, that the internet represents a congregation of in of mega narratives. So, yes, there's always

a risk of subjectivity interracial, I don't wanna pretend otherwise, but the larger than network you create the less the risk that it gets infected by subjectivity Would you say that there is of a discreet and particular problem to the presidency of trump that is separate from the administrations that preceded it when it comes the thus of geopolitical and macro issues? I e american for foreign policy and even domestic policy I think one of people that disenfranchised feel is the trump just then more obvious, saturation of the type of ideas and beliefs they ve dominated american politics. Perhaps

all ways, but certainly in a post. Well, I think it's true that donald trump is a consummate politician in the sense that he believes that every action he takes as a politician is fundamentally a performance, and I think that's infected politics for a very long time, but with donald trump, the sea audience for the performance is actually himself and I dont want to get into psychoanalysis here. You know about him being a malignant narcissist or whatever it might be. I think the greater issue is that separate from his solemn system, separate from the fact that he treats everything as performance. Even more than the conventional politician does, I think, there's the fact. Donald trump wants to be ubiquitous in our lives as americans and, frankly globally. In the same that our cell phones or our tablets or the internet is ubiquitous. He wants. be with us at every moment. He wants us to be thinking about him at all times and then that that occurs. That phenomenon, in conjunction with our corporate media structure, currently reward.

in someone who is putting out startling news products every few minutes, so it's a perfect or perhaps an imperfect it's an unholy marriage of a politician who is the extreme of every. In addition, we ve seen added to some pathological components, possibly and then frankly, pathologies of our journalism, which reward the particular pathologies of donald trump, because it were given that, with your description, if meta journalism, you talked about giving us a reliable perspective because the number of data points maisie your presented us with something that some war reliable and cohesive, no view. When you look at the presidency of georgia, new bush say compared to trump, like you did when you look like even like documentaries, about Presidency, Iraq, war, the kind of stories, the kind description, the kind of attitude that

The media had to george w bush is certainly comparable. Tao trump is currently regarding. Will you certainly have journalists, like JANET miller at the new york times, who were being very credulous about the stories. Americans were being told about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but I do think that that the connection we can draw between now and then is that, of course, it turned out that there were no weapons of mass destruction. That fact that sure revelation- was actually knowable v. Early on. If you would, someone. Let's say I met a journalist creating an epic accounts of weapons inspections in iraq using hunter in hundreds of data points from around the world, establish what had been found by international agencies, international reporters domestic agencies. In the: u s, domestic reporters, I think we would Seen that that's where the narrative was heading much earlier, but was what was happening. Each new shiny object was being chased by media and certain figure.

Had an outsider voice. Janet Miller was a good example, but there were certainly others in media. So I think the problems were seen now are the worst we ve ever seen them, I'm not suggesting they ve just arisen for first time- and I think that matter journalism cannot a solution to it, but not simply because its donald trump, but because in the digital age and we have access to thousands of data points. We can do this sort of research. We can curate items in this way because otherwise, what we end up with his journey, Those who are writing stories, their incredibly competent, their incredibly dedicated, but they haven't, read the entirety of the archive on the subjects that their working with so there either repeating information that others have offered, or they are not really adding to the story or much more commonly they're, not linking up their own revelations with the revelations that of Eddie come out and as americans we probably forgotten because they were, you know more than ten minutes ago, from my perspective, as an english person, and by that I can see

news- is an art. Clearly this can't be a point in them or you will explain to me. I'm sure that it seems that donald trump is subject to a great deal of critical media. They not like he's got. He has a servant openly hostile, mediate more loath than any president in history that what it seems like, maybe he released is the sea. the current number of people don't care and in fact as I find it appealing the ace tree it and finally, something quite jarring about. If you watch cnn or MSNBC or read the new york times now, trump is described and then you see him live in. You know Florida or wherever his appearing anything with this, it just seems absolute no oblivious to box so fuelled by that disdain and he's right risen above it, and I must say even myself as a peasant used customary political affiliations would not lie in that direction. There is something attractive about

a figure that seems to be seems to have risen above narrow if the ict long regarded as corrupted proprietor, the trump presidency I thought I the mainstream media. I just put the government of one of the pillars pillars of this document. What kind of social order stuff, so seems to be. That is not the like that there there is an absence of critique, but that that the critique is did the people you care about a even the kind of rational discourse that your struck tina. This collusion with the russians doesn't seem to impact people. How do you deal with that? But I think that that's true to the extent that each new revelation about donald trump is subsumed beneath us. you're like a soon army of new news products that are startling and upsetting that donald trump is produce, producing he's flooding the zone. You know he's creating a deceitful matrix where each piece of information in the matrix of information

either misinformation or disinflation, or it's true, but somehow infected by our sense that the whole thing is this information and in that environment. There is no question that an old adage that we get in the united states from a former how speaker tipp only offer massachusetts who said that all politics is low, go, gets transformed into all. Politics is emotional, and I do think that when the zone has been flooded with deceit, all power it takes is emotional. One of the things I wrote about with Donald trump back in the summer of two thousand and fifteen right when he announced, is that a lot of people thought that trump supporters were simply angry and they were bringing a sort of post, modern dialectical lens to the conflict between trump supporters and those it post trump. Those who opposed trump were angry and those who excuse me those who supported trump were angry and those who opposed trump were somehow purely valiant. What I wrote in two thousand and fifteen is that trump supporters were actually a bit

contradiction in the meadow modern sense of juxtapositions, sometimes being generative unattractive to us, they were set It's angry and optimistic and I think a lot of people missed the optimism of donald trump porters because they didn't share that optimism or how it was framed, and so the fact that people are so drawn to him, no matter what he does is not simply because their angry, but it's because he represents to them the way that they hope life will be in the future, even if in in my own sense and many others there being conned, they are having an emotional response to this man's presence in our lives. As someone who is constantly promising a better life. So yes, there angry. They are optimistic. The zone is so flooded that that what comes out of it fundamentally is just their own hope for the future. You you look at the people who go to these rallies. It's

going to Iraq, concert and they're, not necessarily even listening to what he saying any more because they ve heard it all before. He is basically repeating himself, but it feels good to be at that rally. It feels good for them too. Looking forward to the future in a time when everything seems so endlessly deconstructed that that eternal deconstruction can lead us to a place of crisis and the lack of hope, and so what we're looking for us hope and they I hope and donald trump from an emotional standpoint, if not a logical one, way that's kind of front and sent even in the most visible maxim of make amerika great again, that's an optimistic obey nostalgic message that inspires both of the emotional states that you have alluded to a kind of hope, but also an anger that forces of undone, the greatness of america? We actually, fortunately, can make great again that say an interesting analysis

you feel then give. It seems to me said the law, the conditions that you're describing do not not reliant on trump further for their perpetuation that if you remove trump and replace him even with Biden, there were that phenomena that you're describing so ubiquitous that they how would they not continue what is the alpha. Then. As you said, he wants the same kind of presence in our lives that says smartphones and screens have an eye like that and you're you're right. He does have a. that's a showman sheer upon does there s a psychopathic immutability that lends itself to the the conditions you're describing but recently something that so far bigger than trump of which he is just the most obvious symptom. Absolutely trump ism will endure, no matter what happens to donald trump political.

personally or in any sense- and the reason that trump ism will endure is that there is a hunger in the united states. I think particularly on the political right for a return to meta narratives that you can trust. And rely on and feel inspired by, and they give you hope when you wake up in the morning. We certainly are in a period where- and I don't get too theoretical here- no postmodernism as a cultural paradigm. That describes are logic and our structure, feeling you're what what we say in cultural theory, our system, logic, and our structure of feeling has for many many decades been described by the term postmodernism. We endlessly deconstruct things we pay various sort of arguments that we have on a dialectic were two poles battle it out until we successful. We ultimately consistently refer to truth s contingent in some way. Eventually that becomes

pervading that causes us to lose hope. It causes us to feel that we will be deconstructing eternally and that we will be in crisis eternally. So there is hunger for a return to madden narratives. Now that the difference between me, let's say, and some unlike jordan petersen- is that odin petersen, is what I would regard as a neo modernist, which simply means that he wants to return to old and in many cases discarded and what should be inert meta narratives from one hundred years. Go or even well before that. What a meadow modernist like me wants to see is a return You two a narratives with an understanding of everything that we learned during the far too long, far too extended postmodern period of roughly seventy years. We need to have faith in meta narratives, in other words, even We know that their flawed, but we do need to know that their flawed. We have to have a certain informed now evident about how we wake up in the morning where we now

that deconstruction happened? We know that we were in crisis, but we also but we need to get up in the morning and and soldier on anyway, and that our meriden it met narratives would be imperfect, but they will, spire us one of the maxims that is often associated with madame modernism is that we need a romantic response to crisis donald trump in the darkest possible this is selling a romantic response to crisis. What we need would suggest on the political left in america is a romantic. the monster crisis, that is, at the the light version of what donald trump is selling as a very, very dark vision in the in the view of most of us, whom he talked about american carnage during the his inaugural speech, we need an alternative to the romantic response to crisis that he selling you're so clever. Thank you Yes, we do need that

now where's back and to come from says, because even by your own methods? It sounds like a that you you're, that you know what you have to create this creative narrow aids and they these reliable nodes and they approach. I saw of almost hyper rational, how do we enter into this new myth? This new state, this new faith, this new romanticism jaded job back just as we are, how do we revive this kind of a new perspective about post donald trump? so like american carnage. How do we revivify optimism without it tending towards those the deaths of a modernist, narratives of sept fashioned, fascism, an ethno nationalism etc? Well, I think one of the problems with the way that Donald trump is approaching it is he wants the same

insipid solution for every fields which is making A great again trust in me. As you said, it's a return to neo modernist returned to modernist narratives like fascism and authoritarianism, and so on. with meadow modernism. What we're imagining is that this cultural paradigm plays out differently in each field, so there's met? A modern architecture is met. A modern music met, a modern stand up comedy and is going to look different in each genre, because the convoy It means that you are trying to both subvert and extend in each of the gene resists different. So let's say journalism in journalism. Meadow modernism takes the form of meadow journalism in the following sense say? Ok journalism is at a point of collapse in many respects. People dont trust it any more. We have a problem with items you're sort of outside journalism, but part the conversation. Ultimately like fake news. How do we

spawned, knowing that we are in a deconstructed, journalistic sphere, where people have less trust? Well, you you to go back and you make it go away in a romantic and perhaps even quixotic way by thing, I'm going to read twelve thousand sources from an on going use the internet to help me do this from around the world going back decades in going to show that we actually have so much investigative journalism that the idea of turning to fake news, the idea not trusting a single news outlets when some can now in the digital age, create a network of thousands of news outlets is really just beside the point, so so many journalism is a romantic. Romantic responds to crisis, but you know in architecture, people putting gardens atop moves in major cities. That's a romantic response to crisis noticed that, in that situation, you're not saying you might in a post, modern dialectic, well, either tear down the building or we say screw it, let's just Bernie

environment until there's nothing left, you say well we're going to keep the building people live there and we know we can't tell all the buildings down, but we're gonna put gardens everywhere that we can, including on the buildings how met about one example of how meadow modernism shows up in architecture. But again it shows up every genre. So the answer to your question is depends on the genre depends on the form of communication being used and on the sphere of professional activity, we're talking about well. That in itself would be issuing postmodernism, which would of course challenged the tax on amazing themselves, even though these, John was independent exist independently of one another. If you think of it, of more simplistic historical forms. Like a rock, the music was baroque. The architecture was brought in ireland, idea that there were based different streams and different expressions, and we can widen. Stamper ought brought to be of yellow, aren't I wanna men o fluid florid,

lo the idea that there will be different approaches in mecca modernism depending on the job that is applied to now. Have a few questions here. May one is where the hell we get into cars. This is why I returned to his like. If you really want to challenge the us of the some of these, that you're, like there marianne williamson, said you're not going to be able to overcome these. So if she sits on a dark satanic forces with your tech no crack bureaucratic, clap track democrat language I have my personal disappointment and are out of condemnation seems like a hard word to use, but light falls more on the left than on the right, because incense the right is gone or and rogue and become mobilized and look. I haven't really fun and expressing themselves over there and light where's. The left has become cut. It thought an outlet bereft any real purpose in meaning, no doubt as a result of this constant deconstruct constructivism that you have described,

seems to me that those ideas our saw a foreclosed, I e so site, like you, almost have to go back to the years of inga The origins of socialism, as opposed to this over a european origins and look at this. The role of say, methodism lesser via about powerbook christian millions in the establishment of socialism. Tit revivify the left I e? Does they need spiritual component to any political alternative, even if that's me, spiritualism is no theological by is, could be it so sort of personal, and if you saying that we can have to enter into with the kind of naivety who, where do we loved? We look in the way that indigenous societies organise and say see. If we can mobilise those ideas in a post, set in the know. Like an example, the architectural example of grubbing things in cities could seize, be none run in depth. Municipalities could power will be shared differently. What kind of

ideas, and where are we getting the energy this off wants the source in this is in this dissipate, grey and insipid time that the that that so sort of all consuming consuming figure like trump it becomes attractive just almost because these properties him? While I look at it this way and we have nothing left to lose many people are awakening this morning on the left. On the right, without any hope whatsoever. That things will improve, met a modernism suggest that it's time for a new sincerity and labour, I mean by that the sort of rebelliousness that we see on the right right now. In the united states, and perhaps elsewhere is incredibly retrograde. It is that sort of punk rebelliousness that determines that. The only way to prove that you actually rebelling- is to do something shocking and two in some way be what some people would consider distasteful. What we already did that

Nineteen, seventeen in the united states with punk rock literally right David fast wallace, a novelist whose considered a protein Madame modernist said, the new rebels, the rebels of the eye, the error were in now the matter modern era, not that he used the term at the time would be those people who are women. to be sniggered at willing to be laughed at willing to become littered too naive and two simple and uncool right and up here, Talking to someone right now Russell who is incredibly uncool and who gets laughed at all the time and that's part of the. Ellen. I know that I know that people, you know, look at me and said skies. Writing five hundred tweet threads on twitter. What does he think he's doing? Where does he think, is there anyone wants to read him right, five hundred tweets in a row on twitter- I am liberally misusing the platform. I know that I'm doing it. I am upsetting people by doing it. I know that I'm doing it

but I'm not trying to be shocking in a pumpkin way, I'm too to have a romantic response to crises which says. Look how naively hopeful this guy is that we can make sense of this world, even though he fully understood hands because he lived through postmodernism with everyone else? How ridiculous? What he's doing seems to be? I agree with what david foster Wallis said twenty five years ago, the rebels of today are willing to be laughed at sniff, that considered uncool the milo he a of the world who say I'm gonna, be punkish, I'm gonna shock? You excuse my language, but that's boy shit forty years ago, rebellion and it's really old hat its incredibly postmodern. It's boring, it's boring you know, Postmodernism had been shocking people with varying you crazy state. about Jews. If you want to use milo you novelist as an example for a hundred years Why post modernism out, you know out state its welcome, so the answer a new sincerity, the answer is,

and the answer is stop worrying about whether people laugh at you on the internet, dubai, whose twenty four today like I saw her frame her face Lastly, in a kind of la way, as in so basque, I say a very warm hope. Welcome response there for a mother, the youth of today present beyond the window and might see the thing about the right go in punk, I feel like it's his innocence and understandable response Julie, leave and to the. Why would you god this of conservatism of new liberalism. I e that it has become about. Let's not worry too much about dealing with this dreadful, global poverty? in ecological melt down. There concern us over the real issue gestures well the words we use if we can really just drill down,

into the modern vocabulary, because now I like it, because as a kind of innocence, is of an outright individualistic conservative attitude, we don't want any real change, but we recognise is necessary to be polite and my sort of once that concessions to vary minority inverted commas interests that that, for me, as a of afforded the right, they so punk territory wish always regarded as a sort of alternate and why would say leftist trope the fact that it's been so easily dislocated makes me query it. Will it's under annabelle Russell, but it is at the same time still just reactionary. It simply response, into what you're saying the neo liberals. What I'm too, asking is that true rebellion is forging a path forward. True billion it in every art form, for instance, has been showing us how we move forward into the future at what

I worry about, among many other things with the alt right, is that yeah they found really successful response to the excesses of the left that they and sell to conservatives, because concern are generally retrograde in how they, stand the concept of progress? That's why they're called conservatives but as someone who's a progressive, my job to not be reactionary to anything, but to try to think about Do we actually forger path forward so why I say that the sword, billiousness that you see on the outright which have actually studied for years and written about is uninjured. To me? You ve been on fourchan eight chan, I've I've. I can't tell you time, I've spent studying spots of the right to know liberalism to the excess, of the new left, but ultimately what I've got did, and I think a lot of meadow modernists have is it's not gonna make when happier it's not

make anyone more hopeful. It's not going to show a path forward to anyone. It simply going to be an effective response to the present well, who's. Thinking about the future who's showing us a path for the next fifty years. It's not milo, yiannopoulos owning the lives or whoever you are obviously jack, opaque and all these other people they have now huh owning the lips. That's just dumb: that's just transient pleasure, it's not about the future. Don't you feel that perhaps this of that and not contempt but say disdain with which she regards some of the people that you aside in, could be just as easy extended to the lips that they are themselves critiquing, because neither party are particularly contribution in january, genuinely progressive movement to your point about foster, wallace or too who, who I adore,

and I identify. I think that you have correctly diagnose that he was dissatisfied and cynical about the literary great that preceded him, I'm trying to use of coal via a new optimism, anew naivety and new innocence. I find it difficult to dare to disentangle that from us a car the spiritual idealism I kind of, by which I mean, I believe in law, I believe in connection I respect for different peoples right to leave differently, by a sort of faith in the. in vessel, if you think of perhaps perhaps the defining idea of post mountain is, there is no universal. There are only a set of various contingencies error. Individuals, any attempt to attain a university is a universal. Is a power play to say there is a oneness can be striven for strove for you, no less so like doesn't isn't where

get in the impetus, the energy and my own conclusion, which is not based on analyses of any data and ridden twelve thousand articles and hanging on fourchan base is achieved sitting in silence and wondering is conqueror comes from there. The kind of trends and an idea of what is to be human and how to mobilise love in the creation of new systems. So here's what say, I think that hope ultimately comes from where we are now, it is derived from how we live on a daily basis and how we see it world. We dont suddenly make a great leap from feeling incredibly conflicted about the world today to pure love. I think that's that's too much of it to make- and I think that's the sort of neo modernism that even if those well directed well intended, and I wish we could do that. Just go straight.

You know where we are now to pure love, but it use, as you said, what would be the impetus and so the bridge, the bridge that gets us from where we are too, where we want to be. Is it setting everything about where we are and finding in it both the love and the turmoil and the tragedy right so, for instance, it I'll just met a journalism as an example no subject of journalism she More love, love for great investigative reporting of the conventional sense then met journalism, because I have to read Thousands of articles from around the world going back decades and I have to work with them as the building blocks of my trade. I have to love what these investigative reporters are doing and in the acknowledgment my book, I thank them, and I say you are what makes better journalism possible at the same time, be a meadow journalist in less on some level. I wanted to tear down the entire structure of how we

transfer information in the digital age, but both things are present at the same time that's why we don't you say that and want to be the clear on this, we don't you see that meadow modernisms is about, and I ever take its about informed now ever take we don't you say it's about optimism. It's about optimism juxtaposed with cynicism. We say that it is sincerity and irony in the same place at the same time and that's what brings people along the path because you say: look you're feeling really cynical right now, because of deconstruct the post, modern age and just the realities of our time. I hear that use that, but also use the love. You feel the optimism, that's why trump has been so successful. He harness the anger of his follows followers, but also their optimist, if he had only appealed to their anger or if he had only sold them pure love or something similar to that it wouldn't have worked, because that's there's, no rich from where they are today to where he wants to get them to. So I think

I would say, Russell is: let's get there. Let's get to pure love, let's get to transcendence and spiritualism, but let's figure out what the bridges that gets us to that point, because if we don't we're going to have exit, the problem you keep repeating, which is how do you get people from here to there and the answers you? without meta. I met a modernism. I suppose you are saying is I an optimist, an optimistic approach founded upon the under standing of where we are now. Is that a of a simple enough description of it? Yes, how'd, you feel over there with no remember lurking, forever on your horizon. What do you think's gonna happen might? Well I mean I think it would be pretty silly to try to reject anything. That's gonna happen in american politics right now. The one thing I would say is that I believe it is clear sir than many people realize. I worried

there are some on the left, particularly that the neo liberal left that we ve been talking about. I mean I just saw James carville the long time political strategy as for the Democrats on cnn, saying that he's got his bottle of champagne ready for another, my third and that he believes the election will be called by ten. Thirty p m. I think that's asinine! I think it's dangerous. I think it's the sort of thing you hear from people who don't understand the phenomena, the phenomenon of of donald trump and trump ism don't understand how powerful and alluring it is to so many people for the reasons that we ve been talking about so I don't know. What's going to happen, I think it'll be close. I think, no matter what happens, we're going to have litigation, we're going to be counting bouts for it. long time. I think the nations gonna be crisis during the transition period, no matter who wins as we already said, even if Joe Biden winds and his inaugurated on january, twenty twenty twenty one. We are going to be a country

which is having a massive clash of. I would suggest cultural paradigms now. Ironically, I think we have the same cultural. I'm iterating itself in a different way, a different presentation on both the right and in neo liberalism and that's a sort of postmodernism. The question is how does america get out of this dialectic? These two poles just battling each other until, on destroys the other, which, ultimately, by the way, would destroy america and has to be some sort of an answer. Anyone who thinks this is gonna be anything but a close election who The transition period is going to be anything but completely chaotic and who thinks even a bite. Administration would be anything, but a continued it is this ratio of our sense of any kind of national unity? Is I think, being naive and not in the informed way in the regular way. Yes, what do you think that

in irregular. Not these new naivety that we're trying to cover up the system sure no naive at sea with china get rid of do these feel like that. The democratic party is in itself in crisis, and how do you think they are I've just by it, and I know that you know from various electoral procedures, but why would they have not avoided that kind of candidate if they were serious about victory it? If it isn't in crisis, it should be increased, this, by which I mean to say it is in crisis, but I dont think it recognizes that its in crisis I mean. Obviously I think it's important to say that Joe Biden is in an entirely different universe of human being and politician and public figure than donald trump that there's no comparison between the two of them. In that respect, but I think Joe Biden even has acknowledged that he's

any sort of long term solution to the future of the democratic party, and I do worry that there are within the democratic party who may consider themselves the future of the democratic party who are simply part of this really unhealthy dialectic with the all right and that that will contain take us down the road that we ve been down. I dont yet see the emergence within the democratic party of those, who really have found a solution for how to take us to the next, age of american history. How do not this together in a sort of all things enchanting songs together sort of way. But in this so being able to just function and not be dysfunctional. So, yes, the democratic parties in crisis, the republican party it doesn't really exist anymore. Frankly, it's just trumps party to culture personality. It, of course, then is in crisis. and I dont think the solution is actually going to come through politics. I dont think the solution is going to come through politicians. I think there's going to have

be a grass roots, understanding that in the digital age, there has to be a new cultural paradigm? to be a new system of logic, a new structure of feeling or we are all of us. left and the right in a wake up every day, depressed and angry and feeling like the future, will be darker than the past cut this radical process of self infantry include chat. in the assumed paradigms, right down to the level of what a nation is and the necessity for an shouldn of three hunt red million people in the digital age and even the plo ability of maintaining that in such an polarized time is it

well that we should start to consider whether or not you can have united kingdom united state of the states of america, whether you should start to look at what is the advantage of centralization in this current condition? Yeah. I think the theory is that it is possible in this age, the digital age, with the foundational metaphor of the network, to sign technically discard things and retain them. I reject the idea that you have to choose that either we get rid of national boundaries altogether or we I have isolationism. I think that there are frameworks that can be employed, both accept that nations have meaning as a concept and all though, understand the ways in which its a little bit silly age of interconnectivity, an intern, nationalization of culture and communication, putting aside politics to treat countries as fully discreet. I think for every question that

tackle now we have to see how it is simultaneously, two things at once. One of the sort of edges format. Modernism is the phrase both at that can have a situation that is both of two extremes simultaneously and in being both of those dreams simultaneously. You become something new, the and the additional thing that we are not currently, whereas if we stay on the dialectic, if we stay on the either or structure either we do this We do that we're just gonna keep fighting in perpetuity until everything collapses, we have to fight and I'm not talking by the way about the or negotiation or meeting in the middle. I'm actually suggesting that when foundational metaphors, the network. You can see simultaneously be at one pole of spectrum and at this in time be at the other end of the spectrum, because four dimensional space is not really what we're working with any more

right a lot about thinking in five dimensions and thinking in six dimensions, even thinking in seven dimensions, because the old dialectic of dimensional thinking is, is not just antiquated its irrelevant its unhelpful, and it's no longer phenomena logically accurate. If you look at most of the great art most of the great ideas, Are a juxtaposition of opposites not a choosing from between the two of them, and so yes, I think we're going to have a new attitude towards national boundaries and that new attitude, will simultaneously be a hardening of how we think about nations and and eradication of how we think about nations. I understand that seems too simple, but think about green architecture, right, green architecture doesn't say, burn down the buildings and build a garden. It says the garden. The building will be in the same place. They will coexist together with now. there being destroyed neither be

negotiated out of existence, thesis antithesis, synthesis of course, and this actual idea of being able to hold two opposing ideas simultaneously and the quantum physical yes of a super state of its possibilities continually or leather. realize themselves. You know, regardless of any perceived contradiction and your exactly right. I point of ran out of written about all of those things, because they are all connected to the paradigm, we're talking about physics, religion, spirituality, all of those concepts already exist and they appeal to a lot of people and I think they're there to be beneficially harvested to inspire people. In a sense organs for the revolution to recall it already present in the current system

How could whatever's going to evolve from our present conditions not be present latent somehow within it, would have to be by definition, but the idea of something becoming truly local and global. Some new confederacy of alliances does require, obviously of contemplation dc. You consider yours your role to be the construction of the analytic rather than the provision of the vision will. I don't know exactly what my role is. and I see that better- think about its well known a limited let me know, let me tell you what I mean by that russell, so I teach digital communications at university of new Hampshire and I teach digital communicate in the following way. I teach it inductive we. What I teach students is that your public communications practice arises. Inductive lee from everything that you are my in your triumphs, your traumas, your obsessions, your passions, your knowledge basis.

skill set your temperament, your personality, everything must be carried forward from experience to Various memory to memory in I've worked in many different fields. Every field I've worked in I've in my skills, my knowledge basis, my experts This is my memories, my relationships from that field. I've carried it forward to build a way of interacting with the word So when you say what is your role- and I say I know what I mean is I'm building it on a daily basis. I dont work deductive easily from us I'm of how I fit into the scheme of things, I just try to every day, communicate in a way consistent with what we call in, in theory the poetic of my community. In practice. Here, like the dow ube, all the way, as you are king the way not familiar enough with- to say whether it's right or not. But if you say, is: let's go with it? If you think you are,

we less familiar with the dow than I am. I have somehow hoodwinked. You destroy a five minute chat. I've just exhausted my knowledge by saying that thing tell us a bit more about yourself and you're, actually a professor or, each new Hampshire and wash your normal. As I say you or your domestic lifelike. What what the hell's going on to sit around you meditate, have you got any time to do anything else when you read in twelve thousand day, and now it's a minute well, so I've got a got. A pretty strange. You know background, I tracked law as a criminal attorney for many years and then I started. I know I'm unfortunately, I'm an attorney, though yom elapsed attorney, still an attorney, but I dont practice. I published many books of poetry. I've been involved in pushing for a long time, are actually two series editor for best american experimental writing. Still today, lastly, I write the proof serious and I'm involved with meda journalism. So my teaching practices is unusual in a way that reflects everything. I've just discussed many professors, teacher

one subject and perhaps in very narrowly within a subjects they'll say: well, I teach eighteenth century poetry that would be very conventional for an academic I teach and about twelve to fifteen different subject. Areas be that's how I have lived my life and that's my background in terms of my terminal degrees, in turn, is of the areas that I've I practiced in and still practice in today in terms of my teaching practice being inductive, so I teach post internet cultural, I teach digital journalism. I teach pre law. I teach every genre of creative writing. I teach technical writing. I teach literature. I teach digital communications I'm a very unusual sort of teacher who loves teaching, but also leaves, as you've indicated before, that some of the old silos of of various departments that have existed in the academy are increasing. irrelevant what I mean we want to do is protected in a way that I hope is generative in public discourse. I mean

that's something you can relate to write you if we want to participate in a way that we hope is helpful, but also the draws from everything we are rather than in a holding us into one category or another, so I'm not trying to compare myself to you, but I just know that that you have a similar interest in particular, in that way we here, why don't I the ability to teach and twenty subjects at a university level and how the hell have you create that would you like, when you twelve, I was twelve. Let's see I was trying to write a novel, and I decided that he's the other thing that really a lot of people who follow my twitter feed will think is entirely appropriate when I was twelve was trying to create a a role playing a game that would turn of life into it, playing game where you could numbers and odds to basically everything that happens in life and even submitted it to up to a roleplaying in publisher who wrote me a very nice note and am sure thought that I was gonna have a very dark future.

when they receive that's, not gonna. I've always always been weird, but again, not weird it in the cool sort of rebellion, wait that I know resonates. Let's say on the all right, but I've just idiosyncratic Literal sense of that word I dont really fit in, and I've just had to come to accept that and it comes with a snickering and it comes with people thinking. I don't You stand twitter when, in fact, I I teach post internet cultural theory, so I on twitter to misuse it deliberately but yeah. I'm a weirdo Russell, yet Yes, I identify didn't, find well you think, then, that trumps a twitter genius. No, I don't think that Tromp is a genius in any respect. Unless it's losing money, I mean he's the least six we'll businessmen in american history, according to its tax records, He may, on the other hand, be one of the most surprisingly successful politicians in american history, but I think it's his pathologies that drive him rather than

his skill sets or his knowledge basis. I think anything he does he fundamentally doing instinctively after decades and decades of the american system rewarding him in various ways the financial system, the legal system, the political system, media system? Are cultural system all reward, Donald trump innate pathologies and can make him like a genius when, in fact, I think he's pray. Much stumbling his way through an increasing I'll say a lot of what he does really makes for bad television and bad pageantry. So I think he's he's become enervated by being paid I didn't and he's he's not even instinctively as effective at the things he used to be effective at at least superficially in twenty twenty, as he was. You know five years ago, if, as you say, that none of the things that he is doing our calculate,

but are just an expression of his pathology. That's more terrifying still because it means that he is sort of in a censor or redundant expression of a systemic problem, as opposed to an active agent and it's difficult to think how that could ever be remedied without pray. Radical change, Seth you're exactly right, though so, for instance, he's pathologically corrupt, but his corruption runs exactly in the direction of the corruption of our political, legal and financial systems. So, for instance, he's publicly come out and said that the foreign corrupt practices act, which prohibits? U S, business men and women from bribing corrupt foreign officials should be repealed. Because it's a terrible law, I mean here

I openly said I should be able to bribe people now. Why didn't that collapses? Reputation as a business man? Why didn't make impossible a political career? Well, because, fundamentally, apparently, inherent in our financial and cultural and occasion, systems and political systems in the? U s is in the sense that you should be able to get ahead? However, you can get ahead and that bribery. So what? When I say that he is instinctive or pathological. I dont mean It's is clear, too, is a ring town is that while there was I don't even know it's probably the default one. I don't really think about it, but not mad savant, but but but I think that instinctively when I say that he's pathologically com. I dont mean to suggest that he isn't acting like a mob boss. Sometimes that and acting as a malefactor in american politics or business. It's just that

instincts run in the direction of existing pathways that have been carved into our system over decades, and that's that's what we see with him What then, should we stop fetish icing our condemnation of trump and instead bring our attention to the problems of which he is an expression, because I take your critique to be accurate and what that that makes me feel optimistic It makes me feel that the reason that trump became president remains present president and may continue to be, president, is because in the land he was present, the alaska be appeared in. He was the most obvious choice that, for all the talk of light in these this pathology and these failings up against hail and hurry mouths and that type of politicians korea, politicians that that that they don't stand a chance. They didn't stand a chance against this figure. I think pops

what people I'm shooting, whether it from the perspective of anger or optimism, as you have diagnosed, is we're gonna cost pathology dinner would teach separate pathology from authenticity. For me, you know that's what that means that this is often take. This is not population this ina, even where its performance is a performance from a marlon brando like animus rather this of nit picking tee so for rain. Zeke manipulation of le the universe of post, clean and Democrat PA. A wish like, I feel like that, this is surge of optimism and rage kinnock's. Over overwhelms disregards and is magnetized toward in a tramp of our man. Well, I think you're you're exactly right that donald trump is a symptom, not cause, but you know having said that, if you have a malignant cyst, you still removed. Malignant cyst, and that's what donald trump is he has to be removed from office. He is malignant. He is

dress, but he's not the cause. I echo If we going to stop in red me and smoking fags and drinking too much, then you know we might as well not bother removing the malignancy list, we're going to say right when it makes fundamental change Let me know trump no biden. None of any of you lot is game is over. I saw it. I inadvertently I looked like a fascistic move, but that was just enthusiasm. Well, you know I mean honestly in in two thousand and sixteen in the spring of two thousand and sixteen I was a Bernie sanders supporter for for two reasons: number. One. I do think he was the closest to presenting a way forward. That was consistent with what we ve been talking about Bernie Sanders is a sort of met a modern figure on the light side of that equation, whereas Donald trump is darker and of the equation, but the second reason that I supported Bernie Sanders is that I believed Hillary Clinton would lose two m because represented a paradigm that is not the current Dominic cultural paradigm and that that turned out to be correct, but just going back to donald,

I want to underscore that when we say he's pathological, what that means is he's simultaneously cynical, sincere. We forget that donald trump, that's the answer. Well, that is, met a modern. It doesn't mean that it's the answer. Meadow modernism, is a cultural paradigm as fast as postmodernism right so to the statements extent Postmodernism has dangerous manifestations and it has is that really generative and have created great art and music and so on anyway. So donald trump sometimes is incredibly earnest and candid about who he is he's actually said, I'm always about the money. I just want to get more money. He says that openly and that appeals to me all right. So that's why I say that he's a meadow modern figure of a very destructive sort. Is that he's combining insincerity and sincerity. He's instinctive insincere he like he's like twenty five thousand times in office, but he will frequently be bracing lee candid and that's so alluring two people, because its consent,

with our experience, for instance, of the internet people find themselves drawn to the meadow modern paradigm, no matter how it is manifested. Unfortunately, even if it's in the past, a con man like donald trump who met a modern. I should be clear only path ethically and instinctively not through any he's, not read theory. Let's put it that way. He like loss. I agree with your analysis that he is not a positive thing headline life that he's teaching us something very, very positive. Something in important lesson is two, because I think it a senses showing us where the solution is by all that he is demonstrating, said no, as of in a binary way, in a sofa as as juxtaposed way as you have. As you have described. It's not like be it's like. It requires some shadow, I think of him as a shadow figure, I think of him as an expression of unconsciousness, but

given that is almost like the pre conditioning created him of administration an obvious thing. In a way this was making that point about george w and even lower burma on a sofa luck on a personal level. Just seemed like a charming and great person. They eat the obama administration and was teaching this up and for the rest of pre obvious, policies to obama, because ITALY, in it the demographic type reasons but but also, I think so, in a way for law of people cemented the sin. I see them around politics. The obama administration I watched- and I was going to talk to Steve Bannon, cause I'm kind of down with having conversations with people. The ice of you know, as opposed to but like, I saw him once at the oxford union, give this unbelievable talk, safe light where, for the first twenty minutes, he didn't say a thing that you could disagree. If he talked about the wall street crash, he talked about the consequences of a talked about how that will have what that told us about corruption etc. He said during this talk he said,

Yet the this'll egos where we now know that populism is an next movement. All that we discussing is it. Is it going to be right, wing populism or left wing populism? This was before the failure of carbon. Labour party in the last election in this country and perhaps before the democratic primaries yet, but the last round of stuff in your system in a leica, it seems like that scene of the bias is heading that way, but that that the reason wants to trump comp, be here's more of what we were doing immediately before trump. We have, like you say, that's going to be taken it further in that direction. Well, I would say this about Steve. Bannon steve banning does a very good job of making it seem like he has answers. He's Finally just reading symptoms and he's working on it. Conventional will to power, which simply is looking for an antidote to whatever is currently the dominant political paradigm that he oppose

Is. There is no long term future in anything suggested by steam Bannon he is providing the right with a prescription for how they might win over the next five to ten years. It's it's not it's not a way forward. I mean, frankly back and twenty sixteen. When you talk about donald trump, pointing us toward an alternative I really felt the meadow modern alternative. Donald trump was pointing us toward was Bernie sanders. Who was, if you look at him objectively right, not really charismatic old dish? old from a world view, a socialist worldview, that's very sort of modernist it it's sort of from seventy years ago, and yet what happened here? Just a million means he was considered lovable and engaging even he repeated himself over and over in every speech. Young people loved him because he was a contradiction in terms in a very alluring and engaging way, but he was also pointing toward a way forward

No, I don't think Bernie sanders was a a twenty year way forward. I thought of him in two thousand. Sixteen, as a four year way forward a twenty or thirty year wave, It requires a paradigm shift, so I'd say that you can talk to Steve Bannon for a long time. He's noting a lot of symptoms, accurately he's dying, some things correctly, but if you try to get steve ban and to talk about how this world is a hopeful place, how does a place that functions? Generative Lee People wake up almost universally hopeful, fifty years from now that and we'll go silent cause. He has nothing to offer a pair dogmatically. He can only work with symptoms only work as a reactionary, and I find that personally, I find it boring, and I find, waste of my time on earth to focus on things that five year solutions, rather than hundred your visions, steep in a hundred your vision, to the extent that exists is similar.

Sirens in you know the the lord of the rings. It's a dark vision that leads to no hope for hardly anyone. which is a good campaign poster. No, it's not it's not dark vision. No hope for no one so lovely speaking with you're such a brilliant man, so grateful to you for your time. I hope we get this. Moreover, I feel like talking to you is that in a sense the that sort of dark matter emanating from the current administration is sort of We can grope in its shadow what the solution. My baby, you need, and off oddly sort of it's him up, polar opposite. One things I find frustrate immoral bubbles of reading about participating, critiquing their current political space. Is that one

We quarreling so vociferously about such a narrow bandwidth of alternatives. I know you said oh, like you know Joe Biden is this of an immoral paramour compared to donald trump. That worries me that that's the that's the extent of the you know that, for me, is a very significant contribution to the state of crisis. and ourselves in, and it seems that what needs to emerge as early as you say, legitimate grass roots, global alternative If not, while we constricted by these imaginary boundaries, why why maybe a global confederacy. Why can't communities All over the world opt out and say we belong to a new global second global new technology You say with the architectural example that you ve been using. We grow. Our alternative society upon the ruins of the last one. Yes, we need a paradigm shift, and that you know a paradigm shift? Has happened is when you're looking at some

and you say I don't even know what I'm looking at- is that politics that doesnt even looked like politics when walt whitman started writing poetry in america in the nineteenth century. Without you, rime and meter and he's one of my favorite poets? They said this isn't even poetry. that's how you know: there's a paradigm shift when you dont even recognise it as the thing that it aims to be So no Joe Biden has not the paradigm shift. I dont think calmly harris. the paradigm shift, though I'm vote If I already voted for Biden and Harris, the paradigm shift will come when all of america- looks at what's happening in politics and says we do not even understand what's happening to an extent. That's occurred with donald trump, but it's dark and destructive the alternative to that. We'll be some other answer that just doesn't look like anything we ve seen before and that's what I'm waiting for. That's me

in glorious unison, down that road, less traveled together, Seth. Let's do it for the soapy of who to talk to you. Might you save brilliant and smart? Thank you. Thank you for talking with me. Russell had a lot of fun that day we got each of his emails. We can continue to chat. Absolutely is your book out? Shall I post myself reading it like this, like looking, like war? This is opening my mind up. Twelve thousand data points in there now page wasted it is that it is out. It came out in september, but you know you you do whatever you want. Whenever you want to do is one thank you for your passion and your brilliant ability to convey ideas and your for capri. All of it slight headache. I really. I really appreciate the conversation and honestly, I appreciate the whole podcast doing. I think you should talk to see banned in it's wonderful, taught, tat The fact that you talk with everyone is inspiring. I think it's great thanks. May I thought you said yesterday listen to under the skin with was s collar, revalue june, so that we want to stick with that

carlo Rovelli no set iverson, doesn't matter can just say the words fibre, and not cholera valley who is coming up soon. So if you enjoy carlo rovelli quantum physicists quantum theorists, storyteller and one could argue, atheist saint yeah yeah, then I do he's coming up soon. Let me know before this episode with a wonderful seth, Abramson he's obviously on twitter, as he said, deconstructing the form, even as he sincerely uses it being a meta modernist. That's what we all learned a lot about today. Didn't we

it's agnes, Graham Russell brand or tweet me at rusty rockets with a hashtag under the skin. Knowing that I respond to five tweets five insta posts, five youtube comments: five facebook posts every single day except for weekends, when I'm in just doing other stuff thanks for two luminary thanks for the people that worked on this show de maya, happy birthday, charlie, good work thing. I have fans everywhere now. The company, on your agenda was traveling is looking. If I start looking face just merging the old spare, I have a lot of time. All of you thank you for listening to under the skin. Only from luminary,