Hello and welcome to under the skin from luminary medium. This week I spoke with scarlet kerr. A scholar is the offer, a feminist, don't wear, pink and other lies. amazing women on what the f word means them in a new book. It's not ok, I feel blue and other lies inspirational people open up about them and who have that's coming out on the third of october. Thanks for all your comments on last week's podcast with beloved ross camp here is some sassy lisa lista listening to this now and finding in the most insightful and wisdom for programming, but the husband and opposing any minute by minute intervals to discuss all the points caps lit they driving aimless these two. We can finish listening. We may be some time. Why didn't you depart the car? Don't drive aimlessly people. Concerned, pull over somewhere safe and listen to ruskin needed

I make Susan as employer love listening of to grapple with a thin membrane between relatively privileged and worldwide underclass. One of my favorite episodes of hashtag under the skin ever thanks may run. And listen to our rusty rockets hashtag under the skin podcast with roscoe great show. I have to say I still expect russia to speak cockney. He certainly go next reaction. As me, cash saunders loved it. We need more people at ross to tell us how it really is the sort of bloody, horrific. Some people's lives truly are a down to earth bloke. I really enjoyed the chat thanks. I really enjoyed the tone of that missive, alright, hey if you're interested in may, and why, wouldn't you be a guy, you tube channel and it's made to combat spiritual stuffs ago, and I subscribe to that. If you haven't done that already prescient lovely clips and things on it come and see, The green belt festival corbians twenty four august. If you wanna come and get it is agreed bout, dot, org thought uk site

too a man endless russell brand dot, com and you'll, get told about upcoming, shows because sometimes they're, quite small and secretive and thirty little gatherings or something, danger like real, original little bits of content checkout river for netflix. If you feel kit followers arm at rusty rockets on twitter. an instrument muscle brand nowadays into under the skin, with the wonderful scarlet curs trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of category nor successful. That's exactly right! We're in this era. Where turns out, they were never works beneath the surface of people. We admire the ideas that the finance on the street and welcome to Russell brand, and it is fast becoming here, over half me that such a pleasure what happens rush about those things you sure

the choice that we know that we never mutual paypal beyond mean, though, that we should like each other's family. No, my wife! I do. I love your wife. I suppose my own life. This marks a particular trend, shouldn t mind own many people and I were actually know their parent yeah as adults, and now you are was meeting you now, the first of a time, you'd be enough, just adults, but now free unaware of you lily S, both your mother, father. I think it's more than that secretly very old bear elder yeah exactly their elders never decrepit individuals. I think we met when I was a teenager maybe from day to day. I think I was still say: can you it coming from me? Cried out

now that we ve been waiting to those awaiting- and I was sick, is my house is basic translation and I would just be upstairs like in my bedroom crying and that build these kind of people downstairs A famous people coming in and out- and I would just be my promise- not feeling yeah, but it was fun to tell you that when the time is now made, it feels quite fragile, promotion. He were about strident yes and pink, had high enjoying all of this is the thing I suppose I became most Aware of, like I m interested your work and the way that your corralling interesting people into talking about topics that benefit from a popular and populist approach by like, when I liked it, I was interested when your topshop thing happened. Yeah, I would say interesting yeah it was actually very. It was quite wakes. It was very,

matter. In some ways we I brought this bird could from its at my pink and we are big kind of pr stunt. what we spend all our money on was getting the back into the chop shop in S, because the whole idea of the book was not just reach the people that would normally by from his book, but to reach like your fourteen year old girl. There is sit in or think she's, I'm interested in she's and make up and then stumbled upon a nice pink from this book and joy. the army and then, on the first day of up up up philip green, came in himself and rip down the store, yeah it was just very hard. was very hope of people there- and it was very kind of it was funny when we were putting that together. I thought the only backlash we were going to get was from other feminists, which was actually really bad way of thinking, but I was just constantly worried that it wasn't going to be academic enough or it wasn't going to be this enough for this and then when it happened, it was a bit away.

that's cool. How I do know it's just. I think there is a worry with all this work that you get vary in cidery, and you start you know, you start picking apart what other feminists do and you're having these fights with these people, who believe ninety nine percent- of what you believe and there's one percent that is different, and so your contrary took about that and your kind of forgetting that half the world actually doesn't even Women should be paid as much as man and doesn't think. Feminism is needed and inga evans on every issue and I really hate than I think I'm really trying to move away from any, if, basically, if you but if even vaguely, while I believe I'm in in I I'm not gonna, pick pop what you're doing, and I really hope it doesn't go the other way here, the urge to tee in people's

front syndrome from life of brian spin, endlessly splintering groups, we have basically the same yeah and I think the left wing of the world is generally does that more and I think in some ways it's great because we are by opinions and we don't let you know the most powerful people speak and we we at each other in this. So much I've learned from that like there's. So much of that has been very good for me and when I was in new york, I did lots of like organizing with battler matters groups and would get a lot of like real criticism and understood. chris is a man, so I think it's great by do think. Right now, in the political climate we are at risk of kind of tearing each other part, which is scary. Yes, some years ago, I heard the idiom there right look for combat left look for trade or allies

I remember that aim. The focus was on the left pulling each ever apart. So what have you done? Then how do you think that you're gonna? What sort of alliances are you interested in building? I didn't I just think I try and be Germany quite accepting of everyone like I jeopardy lie or women, which is probably wrong, but I think. other people out there who are more critical demand. So I am allowed to you know I it's just who I am. I think the funny thing about activism is everyone is an activist in the way that also and so like I'm very I'm, not very combative, I'm not very aggressive. I'm may well peter, like cry than I am to shout, and I think that's also the way, I'm I'm an activists like I generally try and do it from a place of like chatting in being friendly muslim. Of a truthful expression of three. While you don't feel that there is an external

peril of riot. I'm an activist up a bay like this totally exactly, unlike you know, We met whose like one of my best friends and were so different, and we're always gonna be so different, and I think the world needs both of those kinds of people like people back be angry in loud and then people that are a bit softer and quieter, Both weather is creatively or in the field of activism. If what you are doing is it true oppression of who you are, then. This is a chance that some longevity exactly yeah I couldn't be the other way and anyway, and I think I spent a lot of my life kind of thinking that who I was wasn't, okay, I am wanting to change that and then now I'm just like. Well, it's a lot easier for. I just be me and accept that what was this, not thinking through you off was ok. Tell me about that, so long, slow,

but I was very normal cow until I was fourteen and then I had an operation that went wrong when I was fourteen- and I would sin woke up from the operation in acne, and then I was in constant pain for three years. I couldn't walk, has drop off school and I couldn't really do anything had lost to my friends and and during that time I was just misdiagnosed repeatedly for three years, so they basically in the end decided I was making the pain yeah. So I was told I was crazy. I was told that was doing it cause. I was too close to my mom. I was told those tanks I didn't wanna go back to school or so doing it and I didn't realize I was doing at that light. My proclaimed his convince myself that I was in pain and then after three years they were like, which is gonna to another operation and just check

and they found a screw going into my spine out yeah and they took out and I woke up in the pain- was gone. And then I think the whole time I've been sick. I'd imagined this life. When I was better, he knows, like women's, better, is going to be amazing and I was going to run marathons. I was going to climb mountains and understandably I just had a complete breakdown. So then, for about another three years I was just a cripple by light panic attacks and anxiety and depression and and yeah. So I think I just spent so many years sort of really questioning myself and and when you're told that you're crazy it sort of manifest It's true. I think it does isn't it. I think I suppose something that says the anatomical and physical is black pine being told you not feeling like cause I supposed to do. While you were saying I was trying to figure out.

What's my frame of reference for that and as a fuel, I'd always felt like, I don't see any thing that I feel is more true them. What you're telling me what and obviously visceral all. I owe him an actual pint and people saying I'm not in pain, I'm making up and it's an expression of some complex or another. So I'm interested do you think you would like? Did you still believe that what you felt was right, yeah yeah cause? I think it goes two ways like either it's like I always say I saw nineteen eighty four, the other day the play- and I was like this is my story, but I think you know, under torture under any kind of gaslighting or anything, you in their fight against their will. You believe it and I just believed it. I believe they were crazy. I've been, I believed I was crazy. I believed the authority, and I guess,

Never had a reason not to night. I was a nice push. Why go, and I was light- will of course don't you know best anum, so yeah, I just heard everything gets myself and I think you should go one or two aces sitting rise, her youth, your inner life contained, oh god, I'm must mad, then there. I firmly believe that made up the pain and destroy my life and my family's life and took me a long time to kind of pick that you're paid you can imagine it would because I'm entered like he's. One of the I have this idea that most things can be amended or altered. Somehow, through this choose a mentor into. actual spiritual kind of analyses. Is it like? You know, I'm the kind of person would have. and detained if we would in the abstract it with us

Oh, I see wow, so that pain is a manifestation of that she's, a mom. That seems as interesting as addressed the way that she relates to her mom and then the pain will go cause memory. opens the idea that there are lots of people. Would you say you know of my particular condition like today, for example, if you will but morose, and that promotion of vulnerable and fragmented and a very weak and vulnerable, and I feel like something I will raise a hormonal balance russell if you took this supplement. but always fool? I know it must be some medicine. Spiritual thing yeah. I can do to resolve already struggle with that nexus of the physical world and the what you know. The super material world, the spiritual, the emotional, the mental world. However, as well, isn't it like it's a control thing that I always wanted

be able to control how I'm feeling, I always think I can think my way out of every situation. If I'm sad, I I think that if I just think hard enough about what caused that, how it happened, how to get better, it will be able to get better, and sometimes he just can't That would you mind if I sit in vienna pay for awhile, except to say anything about a thing here: boss. I feel like I'm talking of to a degree. Most people are often highly coloured what academics and I'm speaking from personal experience, but not the rubric of my position, is twelve steps or, if I feel like well as I do now, I offer you a bit sad. I think okay, so accept that you feel sad, That's the first, this thing powers over the way I feel and any I'm not care for my life- will become unmanageable, reflect my feelings of sadness caused me to be shipped shocked. Evil empire-

I already know likes whatever the second step. In this case, pat you neither is possible for me to not feel science is ok, so there is the possibility situation could change the first step. I ask you to ask for help. I won't try and resolve this entirely. Mine head using the ecosystem is caused the problem and then therefore four fifths of much more inventorying telling another per and identifying what the problems are more and more, my new level and there are other procedures but like that, in a sense provides provides. Maybe framework has been in the tie. The limits of that system are obsolete, I suppose there are limitations to be very successful. For example, mon levees have gone from being a crack and heroin addict to not being a crack and heroin addict and, like all behaviors around food babies around sex. All of these things, I've seen

the way that I relate to people. I've seen them all alter one of the areas where I know my own life, but in other people's lives I've seen the limitations is around like eating. I've seen oh wow. This there are, there is real room, for help and trauma. Those are the two areas where I've seen that the twelve steps could do with the incorporation of different mentalities. Interesting yeah, like eight in, for example, would that seems like some extreme world when people go into that stuff yeah and I think that's an interesting too, because they're often tied together, aren't they, I think, traumatic. So I've had- I was diagnosed ptsd and five years ago, and it is a real units- fairness, yes, yeah. It's a real fucker trauma and ptsd. It really sort of a pain it just right. It rots your brain

and I truly, I think, came into adulthood thinking I was broken and it's I always used to crave for a twelve step program. I think that's why I loved your book so much because it sort of expands that out to other things, It's taken me a really long time to get to grips with my trauma and so be able to lessen the original roma this period, where you off in physical pain parade and I'm assuming, you're still a child. old, loving, family environment, by your becoming more and more fragment aid and yeah feeling like a further and further away from them, and this is the incense a trauma, unwelcome alike, I'm welcome severance from pretty much everybody else, because you'll start to question your own santa ain't, fit in like your own experience of the world is bogus yeah. It was that I it was. I was so very much abused by some of the doctors

this horrible. Have you mean to her? It was No, no, no such thing I found it. I know it's good. I think I was some because they thought was making up. They cause this this is underlined. Scenario takes its oversight. Goma, simply saying you ve often said aided by me. This fan eight and active, adds to your right and I'm trying to use in a way that, thank you, I think I'm also trying to use it aggressively enough that you will benefit is helping yeah, I'm not that there is find his her stay there. I yeah. I was because they could make up and because I was fourteen weeks where a girl and because all you the to pointless, went to my mom. They just over there he's got more more horrible, and I was so put through some really really extreme and abusive situations with these doctors, which is a hard because I

if you are trained, especially- and you know, as like white people in the western world, just trust, everyone and trust authority, and I thought you know if I had a fire or five moments, a man. If I got sick, a doctor would save me and if I was in trouble a policeman would save me and then suddenly, these doctors were rarely just yeah a busy man being harbour. So there was that and then also this is quite interesting, but I have what we discovered fear. Then from my enzymes means I over metabolize drugs, so. No drugs wacko me. So I would be super mutant, I'm a super mutant, so I can take like ten from from and stay awake and would pump me full of morphine and I'd be feeling everything. So I really did feel all the pain for those three years, which is probably they I mean they used to isolate, was his fifteen year old, but like a bag full of oxycontin, but none of it would work, which is how do you,

Russian lies you do. What is what are you? How are you rationalize this experience and make sense of it was I mean I'm guessing that poverty is? How have you transition from very personal experience and begin in to see some of the car, each in that I talked about. By of, we were taught financing, If there's a fight, these various people in positions of service club, I'm interested in how that bin? The apparent benevolent or for a has, a shadow is about control yeah. I think funny. I mean you know my dad. You know my family, their very positive. I grew up thinking. The war was a great place. I thought people were fundamentally grey I thought aromas, nice and I still believe that the whole time I was going to Europe is going through

I think even then I thought well. I must have done something wrong. If this is happening to me, I must have messed up at some point along the process and I truly believed I was evil. I thought everyone, the wall was great and I was evil and then in I got pain and then went through all this stuff, and I was just I was so unhappy and I was so unable to function that I really really couldn't leave my house, there was an rehab for, was in all these programmes, and I could never find anything that helped. I read a millions of help books, I Listen to every book costs? I went in every cause. I tried everything and nothing of help, and I think it was only

I always say like the face self help, but the white told me it was a book about feminism because it was genuinely through being able to understand what had happened to me in terms of like systems of patriarchy. It not being my fault it we assessing how I was just this tiny child cause. I think I thought I was all grown up. You know I was fourteen, I was the oldest child and it was really three that the I started to be able to understand what happened and then also through about a million therapies. I see every therapist in the world, so that does help and I'm on medication, your medication for people, so that they will this book tick them off one by one But how will? How was it that you were there? How did you transpose your personal experience of this of middle?

Negligence miss fortune in poor interpretation. How can you tell me the stages of how your you diagnosed that food, the their lender feminism? So I think it made me very obsessed with oppression and not just like. I think I grew up thinking. Oppression was like you can't have this or light you stay locked up pair, just basic oppression, and it may me very obsessed with psychological oppression and how people and women and minorities a kind of help back through perpetuating a self belief, so you and upholding holding yourself back so bad. At the time that I had emerged of my teenagers I'd been told. So often that I was crazy, I've been told so often that I was messing up. I've been told so often that I wasn't doing I think I was fundamentally wrong. I needed to fight my natural instincts. Tat I needed to push myself into pain, was one of the big things that will let you always need to be as much pain as well,

well to remind your brain that you're not really in pain, and I wasn't men- had a screw grains waste by so it's been so long with that that my self esteem was so low that I wouldn't I have four back. I wouldn't I never have challenged anything that was said to me. I'd never have believed myself enough to even like leave the house speak up in class and do anything. I was just this shell and I think then went to university and I studied it may be wrong with you may be rightly, but relating what I'd been through to these bigger systems of oppression, where people are told and again who they are, is acts. And then they start to believe that, and you start to push yourself on in that. the sight of feminism, I'm really interested in is so of the way that women's brains got required so that they hold themselves back. It's like the most genius method of.

And containing some one is by convincing them that they can't actually do the things that men can do and that they should don't have the right to speak up, and I think I just you know honestly. I can't tell You I tried, not, I tried everything and then in new york I found this feminist group and it was like so of finding an eminent. Was it you funny I occult her is like suddenly My whole life made sense and I started to get back bits and bits of their self esteem completely. And really just understand what bing yeah, what been going on? I like that. I like being able to recognise personal ply, I'm how its coordinates can directly correlate with broader social issues

sounds to me the past parts of your individual reconstruction and the few finding. Your purpose relates to a broad and clear social issue: do tell me a bit more about the real wiring of female psyche in order that the oppression takes place of individual it's like you were saying that you always hot light. You will wait and not like everyone else, but you which is so like well fuck em. I me right is that what you're saying. The experience of the being weighed when I was left for eight and twelve, and all of that is that the falcon thing was not being expressed by our thinking. You think Yeah, but a new thing that relates to my illness, I do because I was entirely female little kid outside sure, but I think what happens to women is that in that way

you are told by society every single day from the radio born that you are in some Wrong as you are naturally, and that you need to be this kind of a woman, you know we'll wilmot, she told it from birth and other. Let's go go by teaching. Lawyers will ensure that happened here and I think your total again again and again and then, when you feel things that don't fit into this reinforced view of woman, had that you are seeing again and again and again instead of thinking well that's wrong that I'm, I'm a woman as well, and it would those thing that their project him me is clearly wrong. You think, oh god, there must be something wrong with me. Ok, I should hide that part of me. I should this path me. I should make myself small. I should make myself quieter. I should make myself prettier. I should make myself last sexually should all these things that were told women are

You say again and again and again and again, and then you start to believe will maybe I don't deserve that. Maybe I shouldn't speak up. Maybe I don't deserve a pay rise. Maybe I don't the russia? Maybe I do deserve this horrible relationship. Maybe I do deserve to have spent half my clean money and get my head on and buying clothes, and you just start to believe what the patriarch he's telling you and hell you're, the one you're, the only person holding himself back, at least in the west and other countries as more serve as a result going cultural messaging, which desire possibly inherently relate to commerce, yeah commerce, and I think it said you know it's away. This be patriarch all of us as a socializing for yeah, but this is not contradict you like it accept and support right, but

male unless you're from a particular strata of society. I wish I am not from you are told, see what it is to be a man teddy's the obligations of a man right and like say that you perhaps there is a benefit. If you all that have my say, you are from the costs on from say, you're good at football, for example that if a pass or you're gonna fight in all whatever it is and then probably in different classes, good agreements, both good at different activities or bread, tat led and succeed and told your whole life. I remember the first time in one big only times went to the houses of parliament and unnoticed lever and mahogany wrathful ice. Interested He never moments that few nervous and attracting what is it made me feel nervous- and I remember the only other times, I'd ever seen- letta and mahogany that have been when I've been in cool yeah and then a full alright. But the people that now. This schools looked like this, so for them

ever mahogany signifies you all place we're out, but for me it signifies we'd, better watch out you're about to get in serious trouble. So, like I wonder what the point of alliance between, let you say you do work we ve. Let black lives matter. I wonder what the point of a lion I with as say economically stressed groups that transcends agenda. Classification Not that I don't think anything transcends gender classification. I think within every group, women are worse off, but I also think one of my catch phrases is not very catchy. Is that and women can uphold the patriarchy just as much as men and men are victims of patriarchy, just as much as women

so. I think or exactly what you're saying is true of men. Men are told they can't be vulnerable. Mana told they can't cried. Does not stop coincidence that suicide rates a higher higher men than any other group group, especially white men than any other great, because there is so much pressure and you are totally these things. What you you want is that you're not good enough and that you need to sort of make yourself smaller and less and that's the thing I am particularly interested in, but I also think everyone has privilege, and everyone lacks privilege. You know we, that is what, in sectional feminism is in session of feminism, is looking at its not just women and men in the ways that all of these methods of oppression, intersect and light- I mean you're interested next year, but there's this amount

in academic cook, cambaluc rancho. When she wrote this slow paper. Could the basement analogy where she says, if you think of it and you think of women is all being in this basin and on the above, the basement. There, man, and all the women stacked up in the basement and the women at the top of the white middle class. Women who bought for the agenda would be at the top of the basement and then, as you get down, you got people who occupy more and more inspections of other points, repression until the very bottom, you have people that are just discriminated out from every angle and the way that society has historically tried to enact feminism is by lifting up the women up and saying: oh, it will trickle down and if we left these women out first we'll get to you in a minute. You know and they'll be up there and they can help pull you up and actually doesn't work like that is never what like. That is what we

forever in women got the vote over a hundred years ago, and it still hasn't really worked, and she just advocates for this method of feminism. Why you start from the bottom and then, if you start from the bottom, everyone will get up. But you to focus all your energy on those who are most discriminated against in order to release anyone. That makes sense to me so economically Why is exploring race class, gender, sexuality and gender expression every I suppose, like disability, do you think we're just going to keep track of things that can happen, and so what about is what about the but sir, a social structure such as our patriarchy is buying.

Achieving equality within that system. We merely have new. if the in a system that is by nature corrupted and hedge, Munich or the changes be ceased as opposed to allowing different groups of individuals participate? It's my favorite question. I did yeah I for a long time feminists. The idea of gender equality was basically just women, should try, be light. Man, so well get jobs and will wear, cease and we'll be shanty and will be aggressive and will do all of this stuff and exactly what you're saying is true. The system doesnt work, the system of patriarch is is bad for everyone. Men don't want to be like that. women don't want to be like that, and there is some feminists who believe like the suffragists.

If that men and women were exactly the same- and it was just conditioning like if we were brought up an exact same way- we'd be the same, and so they thought we just need to even this allow and get people into jobs and get people to get the vote and get people into parliament and everything will be fine. Virginia Woolf believed that women had something that was fundamentally feminine and could be used to create new systems of power that want hierarchical that one toxic that one about shouting and being loud and strength. They were about actually utilizing this female softness in a way that helped everyone- and I think, people still kind of full between the lines- and you still see some women who very much serve one to emulate what we have traditionally thought of his mail, but I've. What I believe is the actually work women can off from what you're quality it looked like is that we ve all adapted to a more. If you took my energy and stuff

gee, the world has been run on male energy for the last centuries, and I think we all need to adapt to reality. That actually is more. Fifty fifty you can see about would occur, can't use of for logically without examinee for very long, which is that the approach I've taken even imagine as societies formulate formulated hume from can fire and bronze and steal all those ages from books that physical strength infant testosterone would be vital component soon without size, but as civilizations, evolve. If, indeed, that is what civilizations are doing, and god knows how we could ever tell us, what would we be comparing it too? Then the incorporation, of different energy systems and modalities, will be important to me. I think it would solve in others this amazing, I'm friends, this maize woman called along Robert and she's, a u mps, negotiator and peace negotiations that have women involved in a seven shape, sent more likely to succeed the months that just have man

and yet no one has women in peace negotiations, and so it's things like that. I remember I remember my dad directs films and governess film sets and they be scary and intimidating, and then I went on a filmed directed by a woman just to look around, and I was like. Oh my god, it's a different place. I didn't know that you could direct like this, just from a place of softness and kindness. What about the binary system, such as out of the way that we are discussing sex and gender currently might lack nuance for, as I like, a j is put like. I don't know your father super super. Well, I've known him a long time, and I would imagine these very jen. Oh sweet, fella turkey, there be directed by unwares of I've worked with women obviously the directors of pre.

Totally yet because they don't matter acting in the way they ve been told to direct by men, my dad's interesting he had she hates directing which he says so he's not the best example, but he's interesting and you know my dad's, like my best friend and we're very close, and he is a very kind. Gentle and soft man and I think, he's been freed from a lot of the kind of expectations of manliness that a lot men fall into. He has also benefited from a lot of systems of patriarchy light. He never had to worry about. on unease where I talks or getting meals at EU level, and the reason he was able to work and be a dad is cause of my mom shit. To give up a lot of stuff. She had to always be after us? You know she also walked and it was hard for her and I think my dad, as well as just starting to realize that more and and yeah I think my momma she blames me. She says that I've kind of

ruined her by making her think thoroughly things cartel a bunch of stuff, I think, is not directly connected. Just to get your opinion on it. You know one love ireland, like they'll, get yet it that do a challenge where they have their own case one another. In order to facilitate because in so doing, they create more come to action and move stuff fought well look into what love and length, because it is a topic that extremely interested in by the another subject, in which I am extremely interested in his brazilian jujitsu, which, because it's grappling and wrestling involves a lot of proximity and contact with me, I grew up in place called grays in essex right. I might like for education on homosexuality. The first time I had any light words like guy

we're as slow as riot and no one would ever like. In fact, I do one of my cousins went to art college and the first gay person in america knows maybe I was like maintains if it's not too late, I am also our I get it, but they still like it was not well that what we ended among my cousins is. My point is this that I like? I noticed. I still have these male crushes regional, especially erotic, just that qualify many other jujitsu wave, and I start to think eliminate I've got these male crushes on these many, because this is the first time ever having to touch man. Yet again, I've never done it before we act so like it had. I grown up in a system where my contact was more ordinary and regular. My I am very assertive and I thought, vanilla, heterosexuality yeah. I think this is an area where women benefit from the patriarchy way more than men, because we

from bath told to touch her. The women hug, other women love otherwise and have crushed his mother women. It ought to in about our emotions, you know cry together tool together. Tell them all up plums a man just on- and I see that is something I would never give up like. I think it's so lucky that women have that many that way more there. I think so, and I to consider this point that we just discussed for a moment that this system, primarily like a site is sourced from aspects of my less, but necessarily mean that there are female traits alive after be oppressed, repressed abandoned or penalized and the

way to achieve equality is not for amending women, but by amending the systems themselves. I also think when a bank clay, when we talk about male energy and fema Nancy as not necessarily men and women, you know- I think one other side of this conversation is that gender is very much been enforced on us because of our sex, and I think you know men can have more female come on man and jane with that, but the male energy and our society does dominate yes, but I agree. It is also a curious aspect of binary, say I mean gender binary. It's a whole other chat and I should not be the person having that job, because I am assessment but I just wanna, but if you're using a woman spoke vote because it's discussing is predicated on the idea of an absolute thing, called woman,

yet all remaining assign airy gender and then another thing could my alma summer and its source, it is about a peasant at apparent, observing the construction of a person here and I'm, Aware of my own influence and input as much as I can, I'm really trying to remain conscious and president of the messages that give these they all people, and to be aware of the role of apparent to honour unrest. the essence of an individual and bring it forth and nurture it and encourage it and frankly, Jesus Christ in a two year old is it's intense man cause she's a force yeah. What she seems to need is

a repressive structure, sigh and only where pink god site bringing these came down to it. We in a way which I wonder, do you think they scholar that? What weeks to what we are approaching is the necessity for honouring be in the nature of individuals the right of individuals to reform social groups in which they are free yeah and to to not be in hebei, eight by external and sometimes constructed ideas. How individual should be based on mother know their biology ended, but I think what so complicated about it.

is about honor nutrition visual, but you can't just start doing with that with someone when they're forty years old, you know because it's all happened already like if you think about the fact that fifty two percent of white women voted for donald trump, not Hillary Clinton. That was from a point of internalized sexism then came the actually, even as a woman, you don't think a woman can do the job and so the time you got to that point. Why you're so hypnotized by this is me burn up in You know there's no going so we do need start with babies. I agree with I I agree that people are obviously into like can do. Conditioning is a real thing. We are sitting here. Speaking in the english language, we've been programmed to understanding this language there's. My cultural programming is like evident in the issue of Adam, feel very grateful that I'm, a person has been equipped with psychological and spiritual tools to somewhat unravel the aspects of my social programming that have been punitive to me and

without question others, but when we get into something like the trump clean and situation, I feel that, in a sense that, Hillary Clinton, is a good example of something that we have already discussed in her woman nurse light is, and was not. What was of prime import about her, and I fear that what america responded tat was here is an election like most elections, where we are so limited in what we are being offered and the fact that, one of them, the woman in one of them, is a male. How employee do you think that was having the employment rate for ordinary lay it with every how am I may think she was rather lovers. Blackness is to america, I didn't get, was used, imbecile and, and I think do think is beneficial demand. The piece of string, wife, a new area of expertise. I think it's complicated and I think you know it's all push push and Paul is in it.

cutting in many ways. Trump. A reaction to a Having about my office eight years, I think he did things. They also think he may be brought on a feeling of relaxed like those who advocate member, but a feeling of complacency like we ve got him, you know we don't you much else. but I don't really know the thing with hilary is. It was part of every single thing she did. She was picked up, as a woman from day one she was called things and addressed. the paste in the major away. She never would have been issues man and yes, she was flawed and, yes, it was about. She was, but I try we believe that if she had been a man, she would base a trump cause. As far as I'm coming from this from an totty from perspective, because my sense is that part of the way that our systems are able to preserve themselves is by- Nominal concessions to ideas such as sex and rice, that

don't have meaningful impact on the lives of others, aid a Hillary Clinton present say when you know what that basement and the women the most negatively affected at the bottom, and I, like I'm curious tat how positive, if I would have benefited from here to be clean and being present. I dont know if they are to benefit it. You know in the same way that we're still picking up part whether people of color benefit through bombing president, but she didn't become president because she was a woman That possibility, if I'd found relevant, is that if the institution, such as american democracy can withstand they. As a parent put the presence of a female or a non white person, an entirely preserve.

the necessary structures were yet how one resources will not change, because I am where does that leave these arguments. If the actual power structures can mechanized and exhibit power, we there, I have in this area making concessions leaves the argument and will allow the feminist movement is now which is not just getting one woman slip through the door or slipped up from the basement. It's about a huge structural change is about changing the foundations on which all of capture was built on which all of our society is about. You know it's for ages. I think we thought let that oh, but I have a woman that works. My company or I've got a woman boss. This isn't an issue, any moral o. U s got the vote, doesnt matter anymore. You know You can do whatever you want and we have a female prime minister and nothing matters,

and it's not even about nothing. It has nothing to do with one person slipping through. It has to do with a huge, systematic shift, yes m, for me that systematic shift is not might be the inclusion of lot. You know so you like it. Element would if it were split, fifty fifty between men and women or go oh great. It's not really that oppressed. My mom never thought she was a feminist cause. She didn't think she needed to be, and she thought it was done and she was told it was done. yeah the fact that she was pinched on the bomb at work didn't matter. In fact, she was paid less didn't matter and the fact she was supposed to give up her job didn't matter because it was fixed and Margaret thatcher had been a thing and you must say as well like you grew up very working class, and now you're, not, but the fact that you slip through doesn't mean that the class system isn't still just as messed up as it always has been that's right, that's exactly and, to be honest, that's the way, the eye

that's it necessarily necessarily, but actually the lens through which I perceive the world is light weight. The arguments I hear around rice of always been like as synthetic as I can be, given my conditions and with sex I've been educated about in our working in. Oh that's right now, Stephanie right has every right, but where I visually. I've is class because that's the one, your answer to things from that. Do you not see that women and people of color who also working class, are even more disadvantaged thin you, my friend, yes, the good and then the other thing is I'm fascinated by activism and trauma. That point of emotion and how this work and what you care about, and what you feel is an a intelligent thing its emotional thing like I in this, so many things I get, and I repeat,

about and like yeah, I understand it and then, if there's anything to do with, women or mental health. My soul drops out, you know when I would give up anything to do it, and I kind of love that and I hate it. I think it also means a lot of this work is very triggering an emotional. It makes me feel that justice might be a real thing: scarlet. Yes, yes, it makes me feel that there's something in us that wants to be realised. That was loop, you know, did you know of becomes over religious nafta, it's not like any particular religion is all of them. Usually the ice. What was you when I speak to people a variety of backgrounds, with a variety of experience and expertise, my wife but gun to experience, is that I need a perspective that transcendent of material and mechanical facts b? and rationalism

those beneath sometimes beside butler? Why I feel like when I'm listening to you, I feel at all, like a scala as being given the exact experience that was required to create this person. Scholar as being like a volcano. Surely now that you've had this real. real physical and alienating psychological trauma. Then you they're your reaction to that and the prices of that and the of your healing as their recognise that you can be useful in explaining expounding ideas around feminism in ways that are new and realising your own, your own woman, nurse, feminine your femininity, unselfishness, fruit, journey from their land. The your goals and the goals say when I say with a keen the andrews's like a professor of black studies, it by me, like you know when it let us see that are I can see how our

climate and agenda, can a line. If, if we include right into this hour in jewel essential journey, a kind of individual here Our journey for each of us when, when it becomes to extend lies them to try belies it becomes, like you said at the beginning of our conversation: you're, not feminist enough you're, not the right type of feminist you're, not black, radical enough. You not the right kind. They like I feel that, in a sense that that's an a external and eggs, strategy is repeating the structures that we already year with I didn't. here this, but I am a which, as well. Another area that you have worked crystals in yeah? I guess so. We can see whether we can talk about ha ha stuff that comes out the imagination and whimsie. I'm sorry, I say that your obsessed with orally and then exclude witches

I don't exclude them of the brouhaha was something that we can talk about collaboratively. I worked my pantheism love of Christ. Buddha is law, crystals, anything that can get me. I am on a level peggy we were in a yeah. We can. every eye is really help me. I think you know very anti. All of this when I was sick, because I think I felt like people were saying to me. If you just try hard enough, you don't have to feel this anymore, and I was well I am always going to be in pain, I'm in pain every second of every day no amount of like you know. I was also very young, but I couldn't it like more pressure for me to figure out myself. And then ass I got older. I think changed a bet.

I've always been very which he and myself had things and felt things and nine things gone talks. But your intuition named sites in the air where it comes from. Tell me about it. You look at me. I heard that some bad news, That's me just trying to align myself with my, so I the angel fashion is exactly, I think it is a fashion, is, I think I come from a family. Which is, I think some of them- are evil witches, and I sometimes think that I've been I'm trying to make up for the sins of my evil witch family and and I I you know, I just always like new things and could tell her people feel fully said it, and then I would have weighed moment slight when I am sometimes I hear my mom screaming when she wasn't she screaming and should someone would have happened, and I would like untiring I I it's a lot you, my mom very over tonight. It's my mom and yeah, and then

I just started to day. I could never find one way since it worries me. I tried meditation. I tried put his. Am I tried, praying everything and then I started to do a lot of yoga started player on the crystals and started to do these kind of ceremonies on the foaming in new main, where I would cite intentions and talk about thing tonight really think, Is this therapy in its another version of therapy? It's a way of sort of having some in your head and manifest seeming and giving in things- and I just love It- I agree that We have to find our own. We have and away individually and possibly collectively of go she ate in with the unknown yeah. We negotiate with mystery tat tat not by chance that year see when you we say because of the nature of your expertise and identity in the books that you, the review in milan book

one in them. Welcome at one of them I didn't write the myth of robbery and a common the rest of europe nice is a tendency to talk. She using the language of famine is more an families and to enter into the discourse according to you know that that those pre established parameters, but what interested in always angling, pray much. However, our talk too, is how to incorporate this spiritual in the way that we organise systems yeah because in a way when we talk about, as you did at the beginning of our conversation, scholar, oppression, the idea is that, on no to be who I am and when I was trying to identify with you from a different perspective as a mile signed war, I feel like I've felt forms of oppression and, as you dogma, is my agenda of my identity,

round class. Rejection of class transcended class, there's kind of ideas, but this again to talk about why I Think the language of spirituality is important because it is because it thus a why of the axis in the perennial and universal ideas I agree and take away blame as well, which I think I don't blame anyone in so often when I speak, I think people feel blamed, but it isn't that it's a much. I think feminism is very spiritual. It said This kind of weird man, energy that we can't we feel we can't control- I did so for my bath, so I bought a mid summer day and I did it may is that twenty first of june yeah and last year I went stonehenge because it's the only day when you can touch, an engine iphone does a huge trustful that for this process and its main thing, if you ever want to go, we should go.

It's really like one of the most magical things I've ever done. You go there like three am and watch the sunrise, and then this yet I couldn't go by. I made all my friends do a ceremony with me. If I bet there I was like this. Is my woman president. You will have to pretend that you're not to think this is weird. And it was amazing and we all right down three things. We want to give up three things we wanted to bring into the new like this. As the stairs got shorter, and seeing all these men in my life. Do it, and so have do this thing that they would have thought was stupid, was so powerful and I think it yeah, I just think it kind of was but you need find yourself at least be wherever works for you You see how many of the things we discussing that we in the eu of our conversation with calling patriarchal on and male synonymous in other forms of disk, swift, rationalism and materialism yeah, also both ideals,

excluding exclude the fluid feminine energy in any way in the same likes. It's just, I think it langley ascribing the same phenomenon. Something I'm really annoyed about. Actually is the word patriarchy, because the thing that I would like to tell people more than anything is that patriarchy has not. Man is assessed in the same way, capitalism same as anything: it's not men, its everything you know, and so I think the way we need to reform it is just for men not to say as anything they ve done wrong, but is yours much partners, Customers, everyone else, yes were alter same blaming a shopkeeper for capitalism in your socks. However, I have done that before leather mockery. She said like if there is a person in full. If the boss, the person behind the bars the person in front of the bars, is relatively free, it'd be a weird too about again too

tend to their drawn on forever banging on that I speak revolution, offers us the chance to be free of our. conceptions about yourself that directly, the first structure that we, the first oppressive structure that we encounter is our constructed self. The belief that I'll. Let you know a part of your spiritual janni, trying to free himself from thing, we call man is about IRA, I'm clearing war aspects of what I believe, to be myself are themselves construction. Yes, that's why fuel that's pretty much, and I do this on the written for bodies and their added value is a year, even christianity, that we are. You have constructed this idea of who you are, you were not free, and the thing that's been constructed is something that will cooperate and coordinate with the systems that benefit

power, fellow you that's why I've been so much religion so confusing, because so much of what they're saying is about free ourselves from the construction of male and female capitalism. Everything then they so many religions also have codified to their religion separation of men and women, anna subjugation of women Thirdly, when these, when these spiritual systems become the two should list. They were exactly the same trap and that's what really that's me. I guess that's what means I find it hard. I think I would love so much of religion like I think I do love so many aspects, but why fine hard is the institutions which almost every single one of them hold back the women the original religion in some way? Are you serious? nature, but what I feel like it This is a critique that can be offered to the process.

of institutionalize asian and is not particular religion and Sarah easily take your letter, the idea of fine, Who you are, I don't be afraid is, can I love anyone whose religious or other religious journal? I think it's amazing. I just think the recent I've never been out like five month picture. You asked me, except for being, which is that I just always felt a bit if ye about gender stuff- and I think the amazing thing about which is- is that you know the witches does an incredible. You should read up on one's own by putting europe, but she too, on room of one's own. She talks about how women that were called witches were probably just poets, yeah and so many you know the whole history of all of that is about honeymoon back who defied the norms of what it means for women. Yes, yes, I'm what I want to say to scarlet courteous before

start piping off about source, which is again, oh yeah, that feminism is like kind of I'm very sick were with a question how'd, you incorporate your love of decision into your feminist discourse. When often feminism is high par, rational, I'm critically motivated. I would argue that some misconception of feminism, I think, is a huge amount of spirituality within a lot of feminism. Does an incredible islamic feminist movement which is beautiful and rarely worth reading about, of women so of going back to the koran and actually using the koran to backup feminist leaves and talking about. Fema energy and what it means

beefy. Malice, interesting idea is beautiful, oozed, whose doing that and where is, and how does it look as will the way with to understand that particular area polemic is oh now you know is long versus feminists hastily, that's really get back on. Their was a movement that is the good the rain, women's one million signatures movement, a million women in iran to sign this petition. That kind of talk about make. hang around more ah equal in whose agenda, but they used to back up their argument. Quality they used complete Islam in the koran, and it was all based on being the biggest problem with any. If feminism around the thing is, white women come in and go like no. This is how feminism should look and I think that's what

People associate feminism with within islam, and actually there, these incredible islamic feminist, who use all of that to do it. I may say, cause that's the same as that process of institutional position that we have just discussed when we took borrowed like outward orthodoxy, becomes repressive too. I mean I mean the orthodoxy of a particular type of feminism becomes exclusive. To other tie, I mean in white women I think have messed up most of em the last hundred years, the worst thing one as things for me about the war between american wrought with Barbara bush. He made this speech saying this war. Is because women in the middle east caught are allowed to a now polish and we need to fight for their right to I now polish, and it was like that just a bit is everything that's wrong with like white wings, coming in with just as oppressed as anyone we need to

Add everyone needs to fight for themselves. You know, I think, those this very good, sir it was written in the civil rights me from by a group, could combine he women's wear collective cause. There is a lot of oppression of women within the civil rights movement and the women who have told not to speak up, even though there she's a very different demands, and they wrote this statement which was like we are not asking for you to advocate for us we're just asking to be allowed to advocate for ourselves. You should read the whole statement, but it's kind of the basis of a lot of insertion of feminism, which is the right to advocate for yourself, not the right to be told what to do, how to do what feminists says what feminist looks like just to say this is what, for me will be. This is what feminism is like, and then I think, a lot of the feminist. I'm friends with you. really use this idea of astrology on witchcraft and spirituality and crystals you be surprised how many modern feminists are obsessed with crystals

That's not good! I'm interested in that because do you know why I have incl works out. Just then great is because much of the oppression and condemnation of women is on is based on the idea of rationalism, vs irrationalism, which is a similar template to the way the muslim world has been historically oppressed. Are there irrational religious violence and first is political violence? Political violence is very bespoke drone. Just drawing a couple of very guilty people are so so re the year, like is supported by the same structure. So in a sense, precludes the incorporation of me. Story and the unknown and magic because that that plays into the hands of look at em. They sat round the crystals required of them running governments actually, and now I think what we saying is actually weep. living by these rules of rationality the last year, Yes hasn't what. Why don't we the whole system and you know you this new way that is very feminism, though, is very feminine. That is very spiritual, too

tell feminism. I also think a lot of the women I know, mrs particularly in the west, but we fear that we are fighting against systems. We can't see the men in your life you this isn't going on and you go wait a minute. I kind of thinking as but I don't know why. I don't know why. I feel that it's not late, and it was telling me that have to do this will have to do this, but that is something there, and so the obvious solution to that is something else that is in visible and in the ether yeah and also this was again, I think, touches upon what, when I was advocating for a spiritual approach posting explicitly political approach, because at some point you gotta get you ve gotta journey within a go. Who am I bought yet? I want cause I for why one it was to be allowed to get a job in the city and earn a couple underground the year. Toes I hear is that the ass applying that template totally the genuine was, she's my obsession as you can tell me love. She was very critical of the suffragists because she said we don't just me

the vote. It's not like, where all say around going, oh, be equal. If we just had the vote in those things are important, and I am also very interested in changing fiscal systems in changing north by it something in the ether you know and we're never gonna get the complete the feminism feminist mission. Unless we deal with that as well I suppose, because in a way that is rights issues may in the end, come down when you said we should be allowed to determine what our feminism is in the end that will come down to india, individuals, we'll be as many versions of feminism or whatever ideology d ology. You choose visual status, not the ones them in the mainstream media you, the straw, man or straw woman arguments- are propped up in order to fertile for their prevailing mentality to continue to dominate. We had this idea that feminist light didn't show their legs and, in a word lesbian,

in bovine. I think that still have aids today are. Can you write and as a sort of echo of that, what you took it out with witches those possibly were people that didn't were not subjugate? You blew within systems people the visual power in ITALY, which is where the images in an original feminists hosting a lot of like original patriarchy was that women do possess, something that many scared of and then it's like how they fought back against that. What do I don't know? I think it's again something spiritual I think it's a sort of power that doesn't let like power. You know it's a soft power Think men have always been terrified by that. No old man, all men, man, technical men, mail system, yeah now think about that I mean I would find it today. There are lots of men, my age. Finally, there intimidating. Why did I hear? How do you know?

because some of them want to go out with me over both. My diagnosis is that that would be because of intimidation. There can be no other evasion. I may know is not just that. I do know they do. You know it's scary again that criticism where not east is that we'd like a boyfriend No, not really. I just think it's interesting their love menaced intimidated by it hmm, we took our love island forbid? Yes, please be when on just the man and woman women's our yet her talk about one particular might it. It's become talking about love and I love it so much. I am the most devoted fan. I've never miss an episode. I think, as you've, probably seen by this conversation I took these things out every day and you very get rarely get to see a inaction with normal people. think when you watch love island? You are seeing human nature,

and humanity and the patriarchy inaction. Yes, it's very stylized. Yes, they look like people that don't exist in europe. But as the shoulders on you do see men and women and friendship and love hatred and gas lighting and all these issues that are so interesting to watch and then we have to talk about. You know my whole family, which is governed mouth, has not read my book, in fact, I think none of them have read my book, but we are able to this these issues, while watching around well yeah? I may so. Where do you think what points do think most elect. Dry? the social issues, the interest you like mine, call me when my treatment of amber, I had to

the whole therapy session on Michael because I found it so traumatic. It was the way that he was so awful to that's. Fine people cheat all the time it doesn't matter whatever. It was the human thing, but then, when he came back in told her, she was crazy, something he never said before, told us. He or she was childish, something he never said before. convinced tat. She was those things and then she felt she wasn't able to react to this kind of shitty thing. He done in the way she wanted to, because she was constantly checking herself going well. Maybe I could maybe I am childish. Maybe I am demanding. Maybe I'd. fall into they things and you saw her kind of she did it. To him and then be done with it, but she couldn't because of this very clever argument- heaps two it around why he had done what he done done, and it's just that twisting of blame that you see again in the show for from experts whose marco's unable to own he's

feelings mark who is unable to go like what I like about love. Ireland. Is you see people dealing with ammo issues, hierarchy, alliance, sexual attraction and what strategies are they gonna use to cope with valley? And you see people confronted with oh on the kind of person that, if I get a better offer I'll take it or even a different offer, it's an issue that rarely I We are again begun again and again wet my dad was talking the day about some. I met a chief on his wife for ages ago and he said o you'd have hated him because each chose wife, He wouldn't even tell me what it was that this management and cheating on someone is not sexism that is human everyone does. It happens. Whatever is ice. Women do amend it's the way you them react to that that is oppressive it's when you then make it seem like a woman's felt, make it seem she drove your way to do that, make it seem like she's, been

craziness had she not happening. Those are the things that and I think a lot of people mistake that what Michael did with Joanna was fine. Whatever he's a little shit, the way he entreated him when he came back. Him was what was ready that I in my diagnoses, this is an inability to o, your own feelings, as I don't I'm trying to ass person, and I felt like art, but you so like that? Do you think it is a fight one thing to say is a lack of every day cause. It did the same thing, of course, when Johanna left and then, when all she was, what did he say she was I was saying office and he was ass. I said I found in favour today say: hey himself, not little grandmother. Yeah I suppose, is interesting- is that I've proofing I'm starting to think that perhaps we are heading in the same direction, using the tools that we have in our,

I also like that solzhenitsyn quote the line between good and evil doesnt lie between racist genders on my but runs for every human heart. The where wear the said, I musing to liberate myself from oppressive external structures and make myself of maximum use to the most people possible for being awakened and compassionate and kind sounds to me as a paradigm the same as what you're talking about, but through the experience of your own background, and that you have that with him. What you do, which is amazing, but do you ever worry that that your ignoring the kind of others, the actual finished structural institutional things that do help people back, because very well and good saint people becomes virtual, discover However, if you are being held back by system oppression, it is hot issue that I think

wakened p like now. Listen, I don't agree with like placing the onus for social change entirely on individuals to a hey, stop using plastic bottles, then magically the problem of plastic will disappear, believe in yourself and then you'll get whatever you want yeah, but I feel that pay the more people have their own genuine awakening, the more they will be enabled and facility aid in overflowing, whatever structures they are being confronted by. But if people want awake to their own oppression, then there- and for me that is the universality of spiritual awakening? That's interesting! If you awaken, spiritually and you're like an out of work, former industrial worker in the north of england, your awakening is going to take on a particular complexion, but I, but in my opinion, a genuine awakening. We were like oh yeah and there's a there's a racial component. Today's this gender sex combine the line you wouldn't go up at phuket. This is only about me or, if you're, a woman from a metropolitan background, who's

go is about oppression on account of a success, sex, can you will mean hang on a minute, let's feminine, sure is being a press. I fully agree and that's what I'm trying to do, but do you like? How do you taken those other things when you were telling people to these very few were awake. This is what I think are the most scholar is the. I'm not interested in create LEO cells of people and sending them into existing structures and see. If you can overcome boy Johnson will see if you can overcome capitalism, I'm now interested in full. forming new alliances that exist outside of these structures as much as we can ever exist outside of global capitalism. For god's sake, it covers the globe, but creating relationships, systems and structures that are founded upon principles that are agreed on by it's participants. So, for example, with me, you're in a conversation pretty clear, some of the things you're going to bring to the table and then other

look I'm talking to the usa. Will this has to be accounted for now, other? What I reckon that might lead to is mass devolution that that, if you have your ideals. There are people whose ideals womb be at odds with yours, for those people, gonna have to run their own deal yet, and I say what I think that it will involve the a real challenge to the status quo, a real offer of a note if way of living based on individual freedom, collaboration between individuals and these, This meant or creation new systems are asked for. Me is not a political issue, but political. One of the things I learnt pray recently is that the the secular project of making spirituality, distinct indiscreet from material political philosophies, very deliberate thing, because in reality means week I'll be fair to one another. We ve got a real each other, all the justified that the world's based on. I think- and I

it also have to be spirit, hyper, spiritual and hyper practical, because what I always felt up until now is that I was being told just believe in yourself and there were all these systems that will holding me back a meaning that I could have lived myself as much they wanted, but I was still be no being very much a and stuff, and so I think it's bout doing both. Isn't it yes, he is, and I feel that, in a way that spirituality is entirely practical below spirituality, for me is how am I going to cope with living in this world? We ve all of its complexity. corruption within the condition of material life, transients death of everyone. I love your. How am I going to do it well about have some relationship with some kind of truth about who I am and if it doesn't I need to if it isn't activated. If it doesn't leads me being a kind of person, then it's What valley was it anywhere, but it's two sided it's. How am I going to coat bows? How am I going to change it, so I don't have to cope as much my field,

yeah you're right about that button, but my sense is that the more of us become awakened. The more of us become activate the less easy. It would be. I completely agree with that I see that in young people, which is really encouraging how, whereas where to sit, I do a lot with teenage girls and as the soft way that they understand feminism, that isn't binary and isn't that curious, you've been saying it sort of is who they eyes puff everything they do. That's a real open mindedness to the way that the well can be that I would actually describe as very spiritual yeah cause a lark if you're, like you, to have four annual out, as I will send you talkin about some issues that we have discussed there I would invite, is Can you discover what it is you really want? Are you able to look beyond the conditioning of your family, your gas, your nation, your time and see what it is there? A thing called you, and that is something you want your family has held. Yes, yes, the prejudice

that they have bestowed upon. You love, Are you able to see a person beyond that? Well, what do you want? what is in the way of you achieving that isn't. I agree that this is no time for tripe platitude such as you know, be yourself and pull yourself up by your bootstraps in that but lightly and easy interesting that I feel that perhaps we are approaching the point where I didn't terry in politics and spirituality can become very reclusive and collaborative, not divisive and polarizing. Hey agree with. Making percent five minutes gotta catch. You say in anybody's language that the well So what we ve got it like that Imagine that people will simply transcribe this conversation and establish a utopia exactly We must now fans from grace and awaken feminist live side by side that, if they choose, if they teeth thank plaything, thank you

I mean, depending on how many with gifts and being so kind and informative for listening, I hope you enjoy the episode of under the scheme of scarlet car is remember to let me know: euphoria instagram tack me, a rustle, branda tweet me a rusty rockies with the hashtag under the skin. In the meantime, this imbalance in previous episodes like to meet a gmail or beyond conspiracy with jacques permit a play sign up to my modernist ambracia randal come so I can. indicate directly with you could be a first another come and live, shows and secret little coverings than I do. exclude and you'll get like mailing list content. Can you imagine that, and it's very personal like when those emerge again for the irony in that unsubscribe unsubscribe, and look at rebirth as well? If you want on netflix, listening to under the skin, from luminary media,