Hallo and welcome to under the skin from luminary media with me Russell brand. This week I spoke to comic, offer film director rigid. I what a rigid new book I worry on top is, now resolve what is amazing and I felt gently in love with him have been emailing him. But on the our ever since, and I'm hoping we ve made a connection and rigid. If you are listening something to me. For me, it was all real thanks for all your comments on last week's podcast with Malcolm Gladwell. his odd them comments, commonality you Annie, herrick, said This is my favorite interview, yeah, I think of all time, including frost, Nixon or anything ever set by making out Is this your enemy pay, a grey ukiah enjoying listening this and struck by malcolm's comments about sacrifice, when people get together in this, bringing maine

with reference to earlier when talking about people going to church, sacrificing the devices. You really ryan this in real time, peter gray, uk sacrificing made. mrs towards each other. By being there together racism, exertion to bring meaning and relax sums it monday, equal pay, a grey you maybe you don't have to start tracks and I'm giving you do. Then to go for our arms part of the church service. Not sorry, are you didn't probably every success for it to be a fully the life giving Malcolm's idea is in keeping with our quote that faith without action is dead. He asked a very good quote: I'm very familiar with. It came Jordan that spice malcolm is just fantastic. Great so Georgina little and walk away, though a saturday morning, Malcolm gradual, manages to combine extraordinary intellect with humility and humor rare, yet beautiful combination. Thank you. He was a delightful thin

I would say like he was very that route runner. He is low body fat, nice intensity, that, like machinists intensity of christian bow and a sort of robin says likes like a sabu like an ashen mystic man check out my youtube channel for more spiritual videos and clips from the podcast make sure to subscribe, to get notified of new videos as new videos. Every single bloody wake about well being spirituality self care and clips from this podcast. We we check the comments on each video may not respond to all of them, but by god. When I read them, tell me what you like see. More of so, we can provide video content just for youth. sign up to my mailing list and russell brand? Don't call me you'll, be the first to be told about my upcoming shows and receive exclusive content not found on my social media or youtube channel check out my comedy special rebirth on netflix get in touch on social media. Let me know what you think about the podcast at rusty rockets on twitter or just Russell brand

to grab this gains a rigid. I worry, the tender gent a newly sean, but perennially beautiful director or commentator ironies wit, englishman, I would say, great englishman, future national treasure richard I woody trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of category nor successful. That's exactly right! We're in this era where it turns out. We were never works beneath the surface of the people. We admire the ideas that the finance on the history welcome to Russell brand and do this. Do you like. de I. Why will you come? Have you

How are you if that's not bad? What's militant either one other? Let me talk about. Might they worry history? I built a burglar, corporate pagoda pergola. I don't know what that is was it an outdoor swing. It sort of is a glorified frame. So you know those frames. The link is like a square need, hang hanging baskets of them and their debbie, suburbs, and you built one about one of those I sent a life, still chief among your achievements. It's on my saving, her happy. I really yards pretty good. But I quite liked the I like making things well. I've had to most entirely overhaul, my entire personality, again middle age, because data

it might be life to pursue it, and if you notice you, because you were busy, live in your own life, but to the pursuit of a celebrity and so on, so like zealously bore into the right worst aspects have the use of our age. I mean I, I don't know the full story. How old you exactly! walk him while in my shoes, but I am aware that you were in papers, yes as well with with frequency, but I mean who's to say why exactly that was right, because we On responsible, for the way that we have received anna is subsequently rendered in secondary media, and I think I love the mental illness we see from people in now we call in industry, or should we call a game that product and now full it is because of- been dominate aid or hypnotized by war?

and in this so secondary media, and you do with it really interest firstly I'll say something say something disarmingly kind. I owe you can say badly and I would have liked you when the fence had the word bad on anyone interesting ha ha ha ha ha ha. I think was was kind that other kinds of this will be your first act of kindness. He comes a second undertaking. I admire you think you didn't really really interesting things. I think your brilliant, while you're kind, I lovely you kind to lie I am quite modest and try really love you for coming to attain a full, then how I ever entertained. I learned from my life. I mean people. I mean generally, I did advise people to choose me out, but I I I don't feel I've entertain, people I mean january? As most things I've done. People gone! No more of that. Please that's been feeling I've had an- and quite rightly so- I think

And in a way I mean really english, and yet that seems odd, because my parents went back. Aimlessness is quite strange, isn't it what what? What do you feel Mrs kinnock, as I don't quite know what it is where this is an interesting time to assess it, but when I use it to did scribe you there, I think that you are being of modest and disarming, but I know that you are faced the intelligent and I've seen you be eviscerated on the table, and so I know that is an aspect of view. There is. I feel that perhaps you are cautious around sincerity and that. That's an assessment and making from your brilliant work with like the gas miranda stout values like So I sublime irony and like a bow, would like I think that it was the last thing that young matt bury Europe's performance styles there, like a boost

innovative and unusual for people to be. Brazenly discordant disregard conventions around acting, even comic, acting so flagrantly and brilliantly. Well, your kind to say I mean we were. I certainly had the being terrible already. So I in a way, no one. I didn't kill anyone wants to be funny as the first thing they do in any way. That, generally, you know brad pitt, that's not the first thing he needs to try to do. He can

just be handsome and charming and that that's a good life, and I generally think that what I found funniest people really trying to be serious in a way and just people laughing. That's all. I think your your people work out, there's something not right with you and they start laughing and you go if I pretend that I decided that you're going to laugh at me, that might be better, and so with that show I dunno I've never spoken about that show out of character. Yeah in an awful way and because we did all of our press and characters these took it so yeah? It's, I don't presume anyone that would exist as like a spoof horror show in a certain way, written by this pompous horror, writer, and so whenever we did, views about the show which we didn't then, where we did miss garth in his publicity manager,

because it seemed too much to do show about people pompously talking about how great there and then do interviews took him out. Well in a way great, you are for coming up for this thing about people being pompously grey as in it seemed that seemed a bit too snake eating it's own tail, and also just I dunno just didn't seem like it would be fun or interesting to talk about in that way. So a lot of that show I think, harnessed, our own limitations that we had possibly that's true earth, even declared and of the grey eyes, Perhaps all of us are by definition, ultimately our limitations that I spoke,

Yes, I mean I've been reading in of sunset, moon and the moon and sixpence. Have you read that that is really interest? I think is based on the life of Paul gauguin and about this stock broker type of person in paris who, just one day, decides to become a painter at forty and just seems to completely change personality in his utterly an uncompromising, and he ends up being this genius and no one. Everyone just thought you're crazy for doing this, but his brilliant and his totally amoral am, I think, I'm just I'm interested in soon. He does that and justice, not that good, that's illness after her. That seems to have more nothing storing away to me? I e the skull. I'm gonna be a painter and english. You should be a painter and then at some say yeah. I shouldn't have been apparent. That seems, I didn't know that funny about failure in that way,.

So, yes, I always found it interesting people really reaching for something and missing, because that is, let's just put most experience, I think is so missing is misalignment. Isn't it of some kind, I think a riot, but perhaps the the way that we construct a like a a perfect resolution, yeah lack of say, perfectionism yeah it in itself is, if not arbitrary, it's it is impossible to fulfill. and because of the requirements of the word perfect, but also because I don't think that whenever you of a rise in those places it never fails to filling I'm interested to your more fascinate by media are created and genius, because I like that that ray of when people inadvertently happened upon genius, luckier bullets ever broadway, rather failure or ram or like in nam luck in mode

saw in Amadeus yeah. You feel, like the genius might just visit soviet vault with vulgar genius. Yes and it's it can be over there and yes, this cultivated person who feels that they should have they just don't have it I mean woody allen. I think that he does believe that there is such a thing as genius and computers form of it. He don't think you can become funny, I think, yeah, and you feel like that. The reason they you moved in self parody like these brilliant parody, but pr protect, 'em like scripted comedies like golf marine guy and that that rocket profane, you download stuff and the cash the dean learner chat show is because you felt that that's what you did any way. That is both kind of, quantities, because he masterful went away in a way it is like to do something.

As a Dave shrigley. Those are the illustrations of timesheets just because something looks simple and basic. That doesn't mean that it's easy to achieve and I've seen again with when you have won a war apply moss united crowd. You say I can always just by happenstance, I'm incapable of expressing emotion, I'm a membrane that we arrive, linen pushy stuff from is, interesting. I suppose that makes me think you must be very self assured man I, I think I am more as an I don't I would No as an I wouldn't be close to that being the case, but my that didn't feel like that from this site. The machine you mean. You worry worry here. I don't know not so much worse, as in more that, I just know that I'm not so good at things and that's ok, but is it? Doesn't

I don't think that worries me too much that I, but that, partly because a lot of people I really like are beyond what I would be interested in doing. You know that their so great that it were isn't. There's no disgrace. Is good. At the last case, you ve got it ass. I look at that and go I'll make you guys a great, but I mean those shows. I mean I no interest in horror whatsoever. Before dinner, so and so in a way it was through map wholeness. interested in horror in that and coming, and I always felt how sort of more just operating as a founder, people in the show and doing my country into their. My interest was in the gap between intention and execution

I mean susan, sound tat was saying this thing about her book notes on camp why why certain things seen is- and I guess it was written in this one was a written sixties may be so it had a different idea. I believe what we company see camp has being, but somehow that desert you can tell what the intention of a work of art is versus how it's been realised and if there is a kind of distance between those two, the something enjoyable about now, there's something enjoyable I mean: are you a voice like say black flotation films, and this? enjoyable about the scope about social commentary, trying to really go into an area trying to really change things, ostensibly but really is People running along dotson, Faz, this kind of, while on music and the distance between some quite lofty I did and the the housing of it just because

funny and pleasurable and in a way I suppose, to take. But if someone doing something in it not telling out so well, I guess what it shows is that the wrong intention that there is an intention to be great and that isn't get intention, because, What is that you should be interested in the thing and who knows what it will be, but to deliberately shoot for something, and you can see that wasn't quite the thing is that in the very best example, is just someone really winding up for a penalty and missing the something just the whole drama. The build out. The kind of self importance asserts that the sporting and then just missing the something and I don't think it's just a kind of look at them. Mocking thing it's just a that's. What life is year is beyond schadenfreude.

and even by us, but these the inability of human beings to at least consistently beautiful or magical here, exactly just how silly, sometimes just the occupying space in particular. What is this and its? I, I feel really warmly to two things that will be considered, not maybe campi or or lucky. I sought to feel closer to the people who make those things and people feel quite slit, quite michael bay or someone I go. I just didn't. I just can't see the person made this I've. No. Can it into it, whereas I really like edward your plan, nine from outer space, I really feel in some way connected to that fail. Yet their fallibility, eighty aiming and missing yeah. Isn't that beautiful

hey! What do you think of? Did you see when graham imperative parody of those free documentaries on class and ties to the right? Yet when I saw the tapestry exhibition in bristol, so I haven't seen the shows by saw that which I thought was brilliant I'd yeah, I loved them and yeah the kind of progress of class in the balls in the yeah. It's amazing! I those great he was saying that the lower down this social hierarchy. You are the more likely you taste is gonna. Be over and bleeding and goldy and cummings becoming subtler as it sort of like, as you have more access to wealth or status. Whether, but the thing that was I felt very interesting was a bit where he said like that they had footage of a woman at a working men's club

somewhere, presumably in the north, where a man was singing like at the lyla or wherever right and she was pissed and at the front and like a cry and yeah and grayson perry in the commentary says like that. How is that different from someone Tosca having urgent how away- and I wonder, do you think it's somehow to do with this idea of well executed? Intention is camp and catch is about you. We the stamp reference. I is the aspiration to do some caught form

if the last war classical greatness and the secondary component is that this is a source of a bundled together, measurable mass, you can sort of see how it's not achieved. Well, I I think it operates across class. In the art deco is quite camp. You know it's got a sort of lifelessness, a kind of sort of weird I mean take all that burn jones stuff, the andrew, lloyd, webber quite liked it quite sought to camp- and you know there certain operas that like that, and you know the full do not seem camp in human terms if it didn't feel like they're going for something that, MR he eyed it's me

Well, your own yeah, it's just showing your own hubris may be, as that is kind of you see what someones reaching for vs. What they're actually doing- and I guess that's an interesting thing to see. I mean aaron sorkin, his always kind of gang, while drums just intention obstacle to and away in that sense intention is which I think the city intention greatness and the obstacle is you yeah? I find any dramatic thing to see somehow you know I'm like yeah bullets over broadway. It's just. I want to write this great play, but I have to cast this person is called terrible or sing in the rain. That's just the great thing we want to do this musical. We we now want sound, but the the the film stuff in the silence here he's now going to be speaking, got this terrible voice, and so this is going to make that film funny, because she is all great

and this is voice. Coming up. Is that list the attention that this fun, without leaping into young? Dear reckoned, a vast resourced from our the peculiar fusion of the simeon and the divine that somehow with interest there is that aspiration to be whole and wholly and beautiful, and yet this gastric fracture shit and see often stumbling,

oh yeah, the blather that must be drains. You know that's never cos phrase, you know the pencil that must be sharpened, the blood that must be drained yeah, just that continue bodily limitations, and yes just but also it's also people not being okay with it like. Why can't you be okay with your sort of limitations in your your flesh, leanness, your creature leanness in a certain way, and so maybe it operates both ways. Maybe it's not that we should be reaching there and we're falling short it may it should be also. This is also a place that can be occupied in a fine way. Don't you think it's better that not to pull out? It's not like. This is good this a battle whatever. Well, I reckon to refer to some of your earlier ideas say: like micro bites like we've, we acknowledge there's an external metric. This is what greatness looks like, and people

our great seem to unconsciously be able to realise that without reference to- and here I am now striving for greatness it just flows through them and thus of catch or camp or bad are, is a is aware of that and is aspiring to this external thing. now on an hour, and I reckon there is a correlation between that and the civilising influences the mena primarily about the denial of our baser bodily natures. Our appetite sour drives, the reveal generally out so yeah. Why you and the sources it superego kind of way at an the stuff that comes out in dreams is that we mean yes, and I mean that as long as we are the most, I contact have ever been over the life. You know me,

I would urge you got up to here after twenty minutes bumblebee trying to focus here, you'll doings, they were pretending to be a person of really pulling maltreated. No one knows the I'm really very well. If there is a triumph, this algorithm by your feet, this back to my programmers, tell them that they should. This is outside the summit useless a ten plagues future of each european resought. I'm only milkin away your nose got to stress what happened and so far we can even amend that say the bit way. for me. It lactose yeah just cover I would do that in your next venture. Exactly this is a simple and obvious problem that could just eliminate. It probably did a bit too much eye contact in retrospect, but that's the last thing you have to wait until my eye contact emergency the milk. The hydraulic, fluid just came spurting out seems like an actual as points changed subjects

so you you've really book then. Yes, I worry on top and what is it. That's a good question happened to your research. Yes, no, no is well. This is what it is and I dont have a picture which is a problem it is really about a film called view from the top, which is again if paltrow, ass, stewardess comedy that came out in two thousand and three. My wife and I saw this film. And never had a film baffled me more at each stroke of its existence and it seemed so

Amazingly poor, given the elements that I thought, what what would happen if you pretended that everyone stood behind every decision in this film and so to treat this film like citizen, kane and write about it, write a serious analysis of this film as though it's the greatest thing that has ever been recorded, because I mean you know the cliche. No one sets out to make a bad film by. I definitely think there are films where you know this might not be so good. and that in a way the problem with on top. This is the thing I it. It felt that everyone was filming it on their way to something else. In a certain way. You you felt that the first question was: how long will this last and then okay, I can. I can maybe fit this in there's so many things Gwyneth paltrow plays a blue collar person said this. Is she plays someone who grew up?

trailer park, so so this that there is she not able to successfully deliver the idea that she's from that train, apart It doesn't singing her demeanour. She doesn't to her demeanour great, that it is hard to fathom exactly I mean. Who knows what the decisions were, but it's a spirited and performance in a certain way and Bart and she's very dignified and she's she's got a sort of dignity and, I think she's, I think, she's sort of not a thomas is known for this aspirational pap, but I think that the thing that she is good at is them being,

loosened and and slightly unwilling to participate, she's really given rule ten abounds. I think she's right good at being surly and sort of unwilling to be present way and so for her to look like she really wants war. Also, what is a relatively low level goal for gwen of powder type, which is to become an asked you it s, Seems odd and also it feels incredibly patronising. Here's the main thing that I found a strange about the film. I feel that there's a trope comedies, The moment- and there has been for a long time whereby you have a career driven person and at some stage towards the end of act to they have to decide. Look, I really do want to spend time chant. I need to get to a piano recital because it means a lot to him and I can't just yes the yamamoto,

eraser on my back and I've got to get this presentation in, and my boss has been on my ass for a long time about this and I'm going to lose my job and there's this guy he's coming up, but family is more important and I'm going to go to that. Recital and bulb chat is I really like. I will change his name to Bobby it's almost as if it can be interchangeable, going to play really well at that piano recital and we're going to hug and we're going to know. That was the best thing and then at that moment the bottle say how, on the idea that we rejected on page ten is do you really get and tonight and have a promotion, and it feels that there is essentially a thing in films whereby We, the audience, are being killed. The patronized as people going to see these films, which are expensive and being too to give up jobs at the same time as, if there's a kind of inherent phoning us to any activity that isn't creative.

Because also that that film does not work if the guy's, a brain surgeon, you know that those film where it says, stop the cancer research? Even spend more time, have transplant tourism and have a more less affair. you two brain surgery, exact line up and there's a sensitive. Oh, we we, the film makers, who I was I'm seeing our families where we make them a film about how you need spend more time. Family were involved and greater things, and that really important, but The total d in living out. These kind of small lives don't get too involved in the unimportant things. Just don't feel that anyone doing it believes mass. I just don't get it he'll truthful and I didn't feel sort of reach. Recent off on the actual price to pay, I think for being involved in relationships, because I think it always has to have

cake and eat it most, whereby somehow you spend more time your family and you get richer and the commercial world, and I dont know that that is the case here and I'd be more interested in seeing something where someone gives up the path of riches and This is the poorer their spending more time for, and that also is really hard or stressful it if it, when you see that you're not being treated truthfully by the maker of something. It just seems ridiculous. Yeah, you think it. A necessity is disingenuous and it's kind of mundi Deus ex machina can now for no real reason have both of the things that say rigid that from your great pitch for the book No, no, it's not for those like I'll read it cause you're, incapable of promoting our work. It says here, look stephen fry said it,

of shimmering shimmering genius in Caitlin Moran said is hilarious, but she was talking about these, The thing previous previous payments businessmen already here, but nonetheless these needs both of these. it seemed to indicate your marriage, talent, I'm so sorry, it's so hot in here. The only way to cope shut down- okay, yes shallow down, but it does look like I'm under investigation. I looked at them, but I am I'm trying to think of a better way to sort of talk about what bugged me. seems so trivial doesn't, and I got some points I would like the eggs. I won't take long know, I'd love to know me. I'm not a succinct man. Police force me to complement the here. We go ways is, if you, I'm not suggest,

mason conspiratorial or even deliberate or conscious way. But if you question what are the motives of the mainstream film industry, perhaps from our side posts, structural s, perspective, war is the function and yet, if the functionaries is there, a kind of a pilot cave kind of dumb soothing force even of great block, basta works of papa, like still our malea deeply formula, Could I didn't mean they dont occasionally touch on true flat, great to be around movies or franchise. Maybe ours is a weird film in very specific, like the first one is, you know, that's cleared the work of a slightly strange yeah, I would even nor can we combat, gave a little bit in the second world war. I reckon richard is that what you are observing and breaking down is there to serve in hid within works of this nature. Is a kind of law,

pan, clumsy nurse and set them. In my opinion, there might be something quite, malevolent about a few regarded pavilion clay for a moment that, then, that that that message, if you know like even that, the sense of distinction that this is for you at these. These are the lives you should aspire to in these the stories that are fit for you, it's a tour of italy forcing a very I would say, low level down below in a kind of state in the odious having issues at this end and then the disregard for the audience is present in this, the motivating ideals of the film and in the whites rendered in the case yeah yeah- I so and but also how it can be done by quite casually you can drift into doing there and and is not to say that somehow I

side of that and being a somehow able to critique and go. You haven't achieved your artistic potential here, but is more this more something about it. That just feels the unless you feel the audience, is far more intelligent. Knew you! Well you just wrong. You were just factually wrong, but he, while the said the single into italy, the audience may not be brilliant, but together they're a genius. I think there is that the something audience is no with there being cheated or of there being a condescended to, and so it just seems very it's very fun to see something. It's why people like watching those adds where, like the boss of the company, decides to sell,

carpet, so you just go. I know, what's happened here, you've said, is fine I'll handle it yeah. I am carpet right, but you know. Oh you, you didn't get the best person to do this. You, you made a mistake and everyone can feel it. So this this something just silly about feeling I will the audience will buy this. Will the audience will take this? The audience always knows more. I think than you- and this is more of them- for a start, just responding in real time. They didn't have all of your baggage they're, not deluding themselves about whether this is interesting, they have all of these advantages over so and you worry challenge dear, such as greatness, and you are actually quite optimistic about people hey like that. If you feel that of collectively there is a sort of ya well, you know I love the thing in I'm salinger, where he is talking about how you should always right for the fat lady, which is this

and the ideal reader who, whose only he I think, maybe it fran injury or it might be seen introduction where I think Seymour said always imagine in the audience. Is that your favorite on site without ready and that the that's your favorite show even when you don't do the show and you're kind of annoyed and your shoes are, and you get you just give sure that this is her favorite show and you have to kind of completely do it for her. This is you you can't just condescend and just bother you. This is her moment. She really wants to connect to the show and they do pull themselves up and kind of do this performance on. I always mix it up with the magnolia what the kids know, because I feel it's basically the same show, but you know that what's the kitchen, the sound one that they're all on that that the glass family and several do the show anywhere, but I d, I think I d think audiences do you know was what's our aim is not to say that I do think audiences can also go. I'm gonna watch this cause it's time

well. You know, I do you remember that stage when everyone said start saying: oh, you need to watch. This is awful and that things started to happen. So I think I don't think audiences are always wanting to watch. Thank you very much and I think the audience who was trying to watch things because it's the most challenging or elevator. Sometimes you want to watch something for all sorts of reasons, but I think audiences know what swap hey. What do you think about that mark ceased edicts that the end days will be defined by kitsch parity and pastiche. When I took to mean that we will lose our ability to take up one on the striving for greater cost that is already at here.

The pre established structure, a living within a pre established limitations. So we cannot ever really challenge power to politicize it briefly for a moment, but I feel as though, when we yah when, like the when there is no such self, I bought an aspiration, and this is quite curious about you because, like even though your workings of satire and parody- and you have a wry and ironic way and that you are very deadpan as an actor. It seems that and is evident that you're very interested in beauty in a very interested in truth and your call of romance and loving me, what do you think about that thing? The mark is not as eat it. Well look

well, my wife's doing in may at the moment, which is largely about beauty and the idea of beauty in assets of lost idea within the logical principles. So all I can say is you got the wrong person here out of the couple of us as well, apology to that, because it give you a better answer, not been listening when she's been referring only what is electricity shot rights. Let me let me paraphrase of something which is a much more interesting, I mean and in terms of yeah. What you said reminded me of a petticoat thing, which was saying that one day ever more just go giggling into the sea and that not being a good thing, the kind of source of our union

take anything seriously, knowns really engaged everything's kind of held at a distance that isn't a good state, but I dont know that parity necessarily. Is that all jokes are that, because I think jobs are sort of generally about they don't work unless they choose in some way and that kind of timing is a kind of truth parity, I dont know what I dont know. Actually what that means, when I think of something being pastiche, I more think of something which is like a facsimile if the real fear and doesn't regan and humor? Yes, I'm say a little bit like what you just said about that and he helped her film so many times, and you know it's you, these people meet and they're going to go apart and they're gonna come back together and the romantic interest is going to work in this way and no one's going to you know it'd be interesting. If that film she different. Actually, I'm really just going to focus on being an astro

It didn't have time for relationships and that's it. That would be an interesting narrative and another thing that I find this is just very patronizing in terms of aspiration, because old asked you, the the the the role of the ass do this, which it was only for awhile before it became mixed later in the unit, and you used to be it started off. You could only have mail and cabin crew, and then someone had the idea that oh, we can make air travel more attractive if its nurses and some kind of your being looked after and so that these grammars nurses and there's a cut off point of thirty, because otherwise you know how could you know your flight it? Just this old person was attending to this crown. I know immediacy death staring me in the face, literally someone's face crumbling, and- and so I I don't even know what the end of that train of thought, but I suppose

go back to her about the lack of truth and the lack of aspiration. Yeah he's film and he has driven it in a sense. It seems to be that you're striving for something the like sleigh deeper than an analysis of that particular. If your browser, you were saying that parity and party about europe breaking down power station there they will be severely because I'm not dismiss it about the power of comedy defence is difficult to be in the divinity of com. if I'm talking to innocent about cultural objects that have no genuine sporadic and there are no about rousing people connecting with people attending here who stories that is encouraged and boats of look. Let's have perhaps nullify the well here the thing that, know whether this will relate to exactly parts as soon as things become about interpretation. This another susan son, tat theory, as soon as I guess is this, like a post play so idea that

it's there's, there's the ideal and then there's reality, which is a kind of yet unsatisfactory copy of that and an artist just a mimetic version of that unsatisfactory copies of art, not so good, it's rubbish, but the idea, somehow that you create something that the purpose of art is to kind of copy life. Therefore, you try and interpret what the pieces

it is telling you to do, and then you get the meaning might not be a very good way of looking at art and that the surface of art is art. You know there isn't it's not like. He does go of this paintings gray. I don't like anything. I don't like the texture of the colors. I really was saying that the form is the contents and when they're misaligned, that's a problem and also in a way are, I suppose, used to be a kind of ritual thing and and something that you'd live in a certain way that the reason you'd tell someone a story is not just to teach them a lesson that be a kind of participate. Tree element, you'd bring it together and it was tied together with meaning, somehow is tiny, there's an important to the enacting of it. As

It is what it was saying. I think if you try and separate the two out you you're in for problems, so I didn't know the answers. The question in any way, but I'm suspicious of anything that just has a message that is didactic only because it just didn't seem to produce things that are interesting because it doesn't seem to allow for really what makes things interesting, which seems to be slightly out of people's control kind of a at a that we aren't dealing with static. This is the disease, meaning he is here and it's solid and you can't grasp it somehow and that the best you can hope to do is be honest about what you are interested in and and honest about your own interest, and maybe that can communicate in some kind of way. But as soon as I go. Oh I'm going to say this because you

I like it, then you feel like you're, being manipulated, played you're, not really being told something truthful, so I'd say maybe back to the edict is that if, if everyone's been given stuff that the makers don't believe in it may be that as a kind of parodic state, where everything's just untrue- and that is terrible- and maybe that makes me think a little bit of yeah- it's nigel kneale year of the sex olympics, isn't it like they'll last for years, the sex olympics? basically love island at night. On neil, he did quite a mass. Did this thing where it seemed quite I, roman and greek, and the on tv or the sex olympics, and everyone watches it and the rest of this, and it's like us- and I imagine that I everyone one. Basically, we are in the earth set to impact. The certain way of ireland is the sexual impulses I will say in it

Well, yeah, what love island is. Is it deletion of the most prison and desirable aspects of our culture, youth view a sexuality. But the thing is that other interesting about level my opinion is the apes they because its an environment via state as inmates com, but be I'm for political interests? What you like like and the lobster as it like that is like a mainstream version of the lobster, in a sense it is, and what you would like is the invalid. The hand of production, because, unlike a show, that big brother which preceded it in another twenty years ago, with the voice of the production, was present, you could hear people guides. The diagram seems like you: ve got some agreements with treader what the two of you got, gonna do garden it in this showed that

Remove that russia? You get bay people behaving in ways that adhere to our awareness of structure, a narrative in ways that human beings would not actually do E. One woman decides to leave after having our heart broken and decide. I would guess at the behest of the production and sale of former paramour first I'm gonna be leaving, but- and I won't to be ok right now, there's the two of us go until the whole group. These decisions that person would make without direction so so tight real time dramatists yeah with he's a live improv in a certain way, but with consequences, and so some going all that would be good. If those two did in this way, so they must be ready, lightning, quicken their judgments and assessments as to what would be the case new jails, actually being Lakota mean become obsessed with some of these motifs snare. Let when you think of the idea that food food comes our deal

surveillance, normalization examination there they continually under observation, you haven't continually be it I can continually be managed at the diaspora, Innovation is nothing more than to roma, but that, yes, it is prime all forces at work. You see, I will get confronted with a rifle. I was a kind of person that wouldn't just fuck someone off. If I go away option, but I am look and then I have to tell you that there are only twenty two and the compromise with the reality of of who they are down. There's lakes as well is going well. If I pay this right, then I get rich yet is it? How it hasn't is that now that the wealth is secondary, it just is s over Mister mcmurphy, unjust and carry inclusion. They're not had the you didn't feel there is a kind of performance element there, not yes or re that were of a time were. I think there is a performance element precisely because the roof such found, the shape before the coming measure of understand the grammar of it going in there but was amazing, is it kind of serves as this absence

domain when people are eliminated, the show your remaining contestants are unable to treat as anything other than death is lacking. Has that kind of severe a people we from the exiles I say: killed: like in can execute it. Re lightly know just not fair, not fair and they genuinely philip, they didn't go great they're out of the way was no. They suggested morning, I say I reckon richard. There is some what like us of a populist. I t too stanford experiment where people become so immersed in their environment. They somehow forget the parameters, but we're never sure how much of it is the unseen influence of their secondary, invisible power as yours and an anna, and I don't suppose, querying. That is the main thrust of the show success. It's more about, like these people are attractive and not very many close and it's I and I take your point too, about it being a sort of a dystopian

it's in it's own way, I haven't seen so I shouldn't Sarah E. Perhaps in the the you know, the the film yes, air hostess is going to win away with. It seems like we're giving that the unnecessary oxygen to the public by saying how great love island really works, I think is what with yeah I mean. Maybe I should see see how old, saracens brutalizing moments, because I suppose a few but button cause you're commodified push them again, but I think that we are already at that point. I some yet I'm like. Can it to the? liberal river discussed, I think alike, from a rejection of the preceding decades. Their mental donald trump was an inevitability and is only really he's a grotesque of what proceeded as opposed to something genuinely anomalous. Yes, the apprentice was, I remember, watching the american apprentice and it being extraordinary. Just how just, however,

just was really happy to have him judge it. I I always feel that there is a thing of all feel cause you're interested mentor aren't new they. I I sought to feel the passive those shows it having someone actually judge you, someone being able to say you're, quite good and that the floods of that validation being Why enormous and donald trump actually think I'm quite to the business could see them again, Well. How do you get that? I mean I love anything to do business. That's my I'd love the word business! I've! Just people talking about this. people saying they gonna do business, but in a way that their there is no sort of both. Piracy to say that europe get something or not. You know maybe. society less hierarchical. I don't know, but this does a definite stamp you're getting from their your gang. Oh you'll, get a now must be quite attractive. I would say that we living it seems to me,

like in a time where there is. There are less structures that mimic the tribal origins of our species so that we at least have some localizing contemporary references is what it's like for us all: to have a shared goal and for us to have for shared needs and responsibilities, it's harder and harder to emulate that and the perhaps the only way we experience it is vicariously or secondarily or in nerves of dreadful format of some reality, tv his show with this thing about em. I artist thought then, that let you are an iced tea to care. A great deal about beauty, and you said to me just in time. Interest in mental is really the thing that I'm interested in is, god have become lanka, at religious nazis. I tell them to me why not why not just religious cause, I thought then not they are softened it a little. So, yes, you've always got to add some insanity in there to yeah. Okay,

like going? I prefer it. becoming a religious night and house, it was basically what, when you say that, just because in a way got among such on. Tax relief at the moment have never known anyone so devote titles. Reckon I love written a name down. I lied, isn't on taxes. May she said You can't really be religious any more than you can say. I speak language if gotta choose one. Ah, what about that, or do you say to that is our speaking- If you don't speak language never say that, would I have yet been quite intro. Thou youth has got a cup that it was english. Yes from Chomsky manage amazingly well, it breaks out within the EU minute laid out the things the wet nine get there. I speak mats asked in Japan, I say it's english, that yeah this sky sakes yeah criticise me. Sometimes by saying that, besides your house pacific data, not ass, if it clause, because because the way there

am encounter mean and investigate in religion. It seems to from for me what I'm interested in is what appear to be perennial truths that are about personal practice, amp beliefs and faith here, rather than doctrines and dogma that can be used to evaluate, or indeed judge, other people and lex huxley's interest in perennial is him looking for the universal, faint or uninterested? In fact, I suppose in the the where psychiatry he and spirituality a start to combine and curiously this avenue of investigation has led me to note coronary between post structuralist, for which in leave me: I'm not an expert in cambodia nightmare that alone. and pretty nicely with aspects of eastern mysticism which similarly I'm not an expert in

so little two things are not an expert in pleasing together either said any two now and I would not be an expert in this area. In so much as, for example, the imagery of fuku, I remember the obvious distinction there, but let food colors was thinking about earlier, because I was thinking that he takes like. I was a superficially quite absurd, act. Subject like in a crime in discipline, wherever that is a punishment display your hand, land of breaks down, structures a and stories to demonstrate. The way the power operate here seems to me that in your book you are making broader political point. About the nature and function of art and culture which I suppose is being present motif throughout the work that you have gives yourself create the that this is praise pretending

could be that, basically there, it's makers cannot deliver on their promises. Intention and the in that gap is there violation of that What say you this much joy in fun and what you do? It's not like. They ve got mendacious nasty intentions over their rumford hospital. general but like a bar, here, we need to learn something seemingly serve vacuum worse. Yes, I can sense that there is something the ferries in it. Well, I suppose the other side of it is where, within this book, there's a character sensibly of me as film critic trying to me

something out of nothing. So that's the other aspects of it rather than me going through this film thing. It's rather the the carriage and found things is the best omega. So I just- and it reminds me of every great men to my life and its really connected to me. So I also find yourself a grand arising of of someone trying to excavate and and how silly analysis can be funny to sir Henry you're trying to cancel out. I thought of self just an authority or or looking down on It- and here I don't know about sort of scanning things so much for meaning below, and I think I've got a bit suspicious of the idea that you can excavate meaning from something I I do feel that why, because I think, there's the idea that there's the kind of text and there's a subtext and the text is both the subjects in the same

way that it's important say with a poem they confiscate the tell you your observation owns about. Basically, is this he's ok well passive! What's good about it, if you think it scared- or if you like this great symphonies- well, listen to it okay, this is how it goes, the other to handle the little little you have to get well, maybe need to hear it, and it's not like the best bit. This bit did and that could be good and that might some people When I had the region, I liked your one has the or what but there's something about with the form. and the content that are equally important and I I think it can be silly to just go. This is what the thing is and I'm going to guess and I'm anti clever for understanding end. I think you'll I don't know if you're out to an example or any effective piece of art, your personal reaction to it

is occurring in your own consciousness, your own being, and how not be subjective. How could you not be having a deeply personal relationship with with it so yeah the in it in a way you're, not a few outside of the gang thus doing nothing but we're? U is offensive the didactic first of all to you was good about the symphony clearly, but a lot, because personally, I was not introduced a culture and suggesting You were injured in a way that is very far I like, like. We are busy present really fell upon analyses, yeah quite gratefully here is the oh. What what is it I'm supposed to like, and why is it I'm supposed to like that, and why is that good in my experience education ratio is always right here. This thing: there's a masterpiece, the pace and he's fucking boring yeah he's like again the again the explosive that's when I started when people help meet interactive culture. primarily, I think, through education

and analyses I felt like all well, I can connect to stuff. I'm I usually uncultured as an I Didn'T- have a kind of I refrigerate your background and I know of some of you have a J egg. Well, that's what you say but is more yeah. It's got to come from interest. Hasn t got to combine just so grim, workable, you're, being told that this thing is interesting. It's gotta come from a state of interest, an inquiry in some form of joy, otherwise, is just grim labors into yeah. What's your wife's saying about be tea in like his richard I took him at his wife s lead for lydia? Yes, he does the heavy lifting of the humanity of our relationship, and so

the person at- has stand by lime use the sheep provides all the beauty and morals and yeah. Well, it's I mean I couldn't it's. I think gosh. This is tough for me to in any way do justice to. But I guess it's the idea that I suppose beauty as being a repository won't even repositories. The right word, beauty being related to truth and and the interrelationship between those two and how can beauty yeah how? How can Will you be beautiful and untruthful can something be true or not beautiful and in that asian ship there is another there's, a third one which what when I've got to remember it, but my brains, I mean it's just- The decay that meant is the area is the mental two totally different dislike.

greater awareness, mental decay I'm on its red is just like a sort of deflating. I the I'm just going down into sort of aldi That's that's where analogy constituting into allocate here That's what I mean. I've just got no brain, but my gosh, especially she'll, tell you using remus or cost and threw harmony and what did mean for something to be beautiful, and I suppose you know, can something suppose yeah. What? Where does it come from exactly, and I suppose that would be related to the most fundamental theological questions. I guess of war is creation one those things tune next week to mine, who? What? Where and how do you meditate and I You see no basic idea,

delay this door. So how can you could do you narrow and ten you? Maybe you can tell me how I someone wants I'd to mass on my back. I can move my back and they declared me on this. yeah, I just went I've, never seen so much attention in one person. Are you using that as an example that they're just fundamental principles that you will not adhere to pull out massage table? Richard is not my solid triple no my bananas thus far is not looking I I, u article four, can try. I'm like biltong, I built on today. keep reacting and saying that twitched is nothing, nothing happened. He just kept trying to it. Just clearly, I couldn't move it. I couldn't touch and some people can't touch their toes. I can barely my knees, I've no flats, do you take drugs? No did you ever? I mean

the remnant of no, I didn't I mean I have that took piracy. Similarly, today, rights never gave some within the recommended, those workers I heard with I'll give a natural until I take them. That's why I need a half an hour, I'll see when this one starts a tail off, I'm not I'm pretty I'd, say relatively up steam. Yes, I'm not. I've always felt them just not very healthy. You. I think you need a kind of constitution. The certain I ain't gonna constitute say, don't matter why in what? How is it related to unmask out nature? I feel it's an ability to sort of relax and be present, which I'm not very good at very present rainy, yeah yeah. That's not right back! I want out of this when it in all of this lack of classical english. modesty

it ain't really not like. I don't think I'm modest, I don't think you are mimicking anyone, I think, could really genuine. I'm not criticizing just saying that when you're doing that, when you like a guy wound you off on channel four, you have varies, slice. You know, like I said that I would just like a normal conversation to make the house, like a regular conversation that I'd have it just. That was a strange situation whereby I thought I'd done an interview. I done an interview for a paper. and then I think the interview ended up being written off as being made being uncomfortable than trees, but. I don't know how it came about what we can imagine, because you do so the incomes of interviews. We don't straight answers you not willing to take any complement each other you with us, but in a way is more just someone said how'd you find being interviewed light

rather than being gracious and go, I love being in the few I'd say. I find it a bit awkward, but not hugely just a bit awkward just slightly awkward, as in it's unusual, most people aren't interviews. I mean it's just ought to get more men. I've always expected to interview. I feel it's weird. I I feel that the the direction of inquiry today When disproportionate yeah, I would like to ask you some questions and I know that's not quite the consistent you. I was always a bit of a show off so like for me when I was the main viewed. I felt like news say what you know, but your wire, the you'll engaged and interesting, and you discursive a new thing can alive wayward. I think a lot of people I've met, who who write or who d music, the bested amidst the music the writing. You know the reason they did. It is because they can't talk in a certain way

they just go? Well? If I could speak, I wouldn't have written the song. It means so much easier just this week, if I were able to. So that particular interview was, they said to come and talk about interviewing and and interviews being strange. I wouldn't ok that I can do that and then the for it. I think they said. Would you be willing they talk about maybe race in the major I said well, not particularly because I didn't feel I have a particular right to talk about it, because this is what I feel will, for example, say your er may be a would be seen as commentating on things politically. I think that's really good, partly because you're here next week as it were, while I feel as if you're gang around promoting something just go my political tappans I'll see that some of our book out her. I kind of feel that if you're going to talk about now, you should have you should stick around you. Can't you sort of law, something out and then just disappear. You need to stain

aged and being that kind of conversation and be am what's the word kind, if this countable yeah. For for what you're, saying in certain ways be willing to carry on the conversation by E. Recognise and in fact I think, partly with what you are saying in this interview on certain issues at the same time, it is there that there is a process of the vacation that that film, that you're analyzing india, burke the that the process of on case in interviews and promo is come. It's a commodity. My one way, he's, a famous actor said that when you like at that point we're doing a big hollywood studio, movie, yeah and you're on billboard and you're getting foreigner flown around on studio, private jets and the like, and it's a failure if you're, particularly if you're sort of peasant I mean that sort of felt quite inadequate and welcomes glamour and privilege as a kind of redress that feeling of inferiority use of take a person

I have achieved this thing yeah, and then you learn that these are just the symptoms of other people. Making money off you and you already have an irrelevant superficial compound yeah. I remember spike lee saying somebody you know the best paid basketball in the world is still like being exploited in a certain way and you are, but you know, I I ve never been in the world. I've always liked been non, what are you doing them hollow movies and doing america we make of I take one. I do this one film. incredibly unsuccessful, Stella was an executive produced on a filmmaker submarine, and so he said, do you want to be in this? Will only one ok and at my wife said, the I looked like had won the competition to be in a film. That's how I look like I remember being in a scene and can why it's been so looking at me. Oh I'm in a scene with him and that's how unsuited to I just want

really weird, I meant to pretend I'm anything and but europe, so I one. But again, was really I didn't kind of pursue it. what just happened and I haven't done anything yet again: oh yeah may that freedom, I'm done anything, I'm so yeah. I didn't. I didn't go to the press I have seen the film I wasn't. I just wasn't: there's no To users, no there's nothing, we lived, on near shot was ikea where we lived and when we went to I was danger in the film someone. That's a crack house

Okay, that, Sir! That's! Where we're living I mean it. Wasn't it wasn't kind of glamorous in any way. It's long and I liked the director is called a kiva schaefer. He did the lonely island, and so he was like kind of a video guy, insulting these city comedies. I didn't feel like. Oh I'm in hollywood. Now I wouldn't it wasn't even filmed in hollywood as in atlanta, so it just didn't. Have that feel and also I don't know you see. I met my wife or nos twenty four and so. that's kind of where I've been in terms of my interest in and sort of life is there. So that is great mercy for me, I mean incredibly grateful. For that I mean not the show it

of course, no make sure don't show it to her would seem weaken, would diminish your power examined relations much better than I just not true the values we hold clan and rubbish. That's await an article, married, I didn't get married to Laos, forty or- and I think that argue listen, I'm not an idiot. So I recognize all this stuff was daft about being no scooped up into slip, saying it as in. I don't feel it through any virtue. We are sure that constitutional, my also you know you view of handsome, so that citizens are covered up here, you're very odd person. I am quite out of time. following my well, I nothing not that goes out and proper, but that its most strange when the definition and damaging but like I said, but I clearly was more willing to embrace, investigate and in an animal. Isn't it slightly thrust upon you know in a way you know

you can't really into being exactly as not having it out. A lot of people are trying to live in a way where everyone finds him terribly attractive, not really like he's either When are you gonna? Do? Yes, and what it was like when I recommend you saying about your relationship with lydia, is that once you have a domestic destination There is a lot of my whole life seems different and, I suppose, to touch again upon a point I made earlier about be envying. Your successes, it director, I love that film submarine. I love this stuff, contribute here like two with other comedians leg of italy, the patient stuff, I've read your book I worry- and I worry, I think, your brilliant and funny. I even watch gadget man travel man in order that kind of stuff I've never take the ridiculous degree of appearing on the damn thing. Why would you agree that the years passed really faceless? Oh, yes, I guess that's gonna make those!

Perhaps I might have done the last one that I'm going to enjoy life. This is going to do than what would you call it vote too I am astonished that you even do things like that right because you're no good at it, because you're very funny at quipping, when you're on that bar skip sledge thing with a commentary was our the ladder of Robert Webb rafa and lecco. We have dirty vegas. I felt like a sand ballerina. You are very luck, I'm like getting into your good at establishing report from these people, but it just seems talking to you that you're a peasant news, if not repulsed, by a celebrity, sent me a kind of sceptical when prickly norman, pricking silvana uncomfortable in a way. I suppose that is in some ways the premise of the show extend. Is that I'm not a natural traveler and I find it very hard being away from home and so on again, the only light gadget manhattan christine fry come. Do everything like if, if even try, kids,

He would have continued doing gadget man and that would have been fine, but it just sometimes it these things a widely unsolicited- and I suppose sometimes you ok I'll! Try that hasn't I've! Never I've often felt well. I mean it's a mistake you can. Asking me a mess, I may I always to feel sums making a mistake by go. But ok, let's try it. Let's see what happens. If I do this, Oh yeah, I don't quite know things. Any change when I did submarine in the is the first time ever done, press and. Because up until then, just hadn't done it's a mess, a sort of crazy principle, but I found myself dean pray

for that, because there is an anti film at sea anyway, I hate the term india cairo track that as with cheaper, so it needed publicizing and then you end up on. in an arena that you never thought you'd be doing supposedly some film and now, you aren t forcing comes in the film, and so it seems you already there that in a way- and so I ended up- I guess- for the kind of persona from Doing interviews about something there, I never thought I would have one but turns out. I guess you you find out you people react. You in a certain way is not quite in your control. no there's! No! If you have some sort of like her, I don't know archetypal or

central energy that people respond to that can be utilized, that you can build a sitcom around and you have no chemistry with your then, as he has suddenly by suppose, when it's within, like in a scripted narrative like a rt, oh yeah yeah. Did you the best of luck in two thousand and two, The show was an aim of annoyance that you enjoy. That yeah I mean like. I can state right. So I I find that hard by re light the cast I like graeme, and you know I love father ted, and so that was yeah. That was good to do, but I you sort of when you're in something I just feel you're you're slightly surrendering to the director I mean okay, what would you like, or how would you like me to do this am- and I guess through directing and you sort of see how hard acting his eyes? Quite I it's quite useful. Acting in order to be a director,

actors are really trying to make something work and they need you to be clear, and you can't just focus on your own power. limbs in your own schedule. In your own trying to get this shop,

In this way, you need to be able to put that one side meal to speak to actors because they know they're the communicative presence in anything you come to have that kind of intimacy and process when you're making submarine. I really like that yeah I really like, and the best thing I find. This is here's something that you have written or you have been involved with writing and someone infuses it with humanity and it's better then, and now it's them and you can sort of behave like a fan. That's what I like, I imagine most people start writing, say really enjoyed reading or they make films because they like watching film, so you get to kind of be in that found position, but in really this great position of being quite close to it, it's obviously stress

oh and your gang. Oh, is this going to be wrong, and am I doing this right, but you know say recently assisting the audio book of one of these with Jesse Eisenberg, his doings of it and just hearing him do it is just I could enjoy it, and that was a very strange situation. Just something it's just like laughing with someone you like, and that was great. So I really like that, even ever it interim more films and I'm like to, but I don't want to leave my house so this attention there, I am I think I will later when is because I want to see my wife and children as much as possible, and so is just doing less and its real going to an oil rig and I know I wouldn't quite be there and be back at work, be wanting to be back at home, so writing books, I like, because that's very compatible and you didn't

like I didn't know very self aware: listen, you're, not eyes, no urgent. I suppose it looks like since having been married and having children for me back. It was, I don't know like they require quite some time nasa and, like I would say I, if falling off the idea that something I'm supposed to be doing. There's a petty are supposed to be better life, I'm supposed to be living. These things are led to achieve. For me, oh god, no is. Nothing is more important than president, when your children are getting up and going to ban watching them into in your half ass version of parenting. I mean car fastest, give good percentage. In contrast, I mean I'm I am not even that barely any almost on the point of a percentage of an ass at it and but yeah and it's not like oh, this is domesticity. It feels more like oh well, this is partnership. Well, this is all, not yet no light. Some realm, your kind of receding into it.

Fearful. That is where you are ass, where life as some have your family, ok now without it we ve been talking for several minutes. Good grumbling, it doesn't seem like, let me conclude, podcasting more professional workers to nurture lovey talking. Thank you very much by hunger is very nice to talk to you and I wish you'd talk more about what you were thinking. leave early ass, cushion self obsessed. Man have asked a question. I heard what you did it's really not, while being there of modest wore a flower lulled. You did my thing out, so you examine the ran ramadan for seventeen minutes right, banned on and uneven reciprocate. That's what's come out that the bitter truth that the bitter truth. Thank you. Thank you thanks for listening hope you enjoy. The episode remember to let me know you follow me on instagram tag me Russell brand or tweet me at rusty rockets with the hashtag under the skin. In the meantime, back and listen to koromo, Lena dunham and if you like, and we can listen to them

What costs on luminary to please sign up to my mailing list and Russell brand dot com, so I can communicate directly with you. You'll be the first to know about my upcoming live, shows and receive my only slowly content, also the river for netflix fuel I don't mind anymore. Thank you under the skin, from leumi media. With me Russell brand,