Oh I'm all come to under the skin with me Russell brand from luminary this week I speak to fill a path. Perry have already spoken to her she's, a soccer therapist she's, an author she's married grace and perry allays book the book you wish your parents had read and your parents are glad that you did has been released in paper back with a new chapter on shipping's cool she's, beryllium moments, talk too wise, grounded and strong and clear. And it s a good conversation is arranged. I took it for granted that he's a few things that on promoting, but there are things that you're into first, they ask me anything new pockets, ask me anything where you can in. If you make an austrian question, what are we gonna do

I just go over to Russell brand dot com forward. Slash, ask me anything and you can leave a question. Right is as simple as that. Do I just go there? You click a button and you record it sixty seconds and then you'll be in the podcast. You can russell what, if why is it you've done this? Why do you live this way? Have you shaved that beard? Yet you could ask anything you want. It could be deep. It could be silly The snippet on social have a look at yeah, well nasty little snippets. Finally, someone else who's getting this snippet treatment says it's just a snippet, not a meal, otherwise segment stupid. Doubts, eisner, written snecma, getting ready accents, nip it in an irish nip it in the south african accent sniffing snake

everywhere snippet. I don't know what to say. If you are using it clip section clip or section clap, snippet snippet. We combine words again face beat a hazard right lessons, high space smith, I've never level, but ok or what they can listen to nip it in the only internet can go then go go to instagram. If I spoke to my suggests, ok, so you yeah its exclusive delivery subscribers. Anyone asked anything divergent you dont, let anyone ask anything not live out about. Don't I I mean that to stop. It

yoda inquisitive you about me everything I hear now you are you're right economy is paid by unlucky like questions what do down? I am because I guess what dan river annabelle into my head tiktok, and it was good, wasn't it even Annabelle, says and Annabelle for someone who's in their twenties. Just no enthusiasm yeah. I should mind she's at work being a professional person. She very welcome to be out wherever she is paid to the mia. Very enthusiastic, passionate person is changed your mind because not garrison, charlie and no india. basically enthusiastic, how we ever you into Meyer, never mind my user. You makes our I'm enthusiastic here. About my sad fact now, if this isn't the servers narcissism, that's gonna be nipped in the bud, but about the work. The other work- I am please yes

well ok, we were a balance. We were well balanced team. We can handle this weekend. So yeah asked me anything. You can ask me about team dynamics. You can ask me about both of you one. Why do I continue to tolerate Jamie Finn? That's one I'll struggle to answer right. There, now remember to sign up to my mailing list and Russell brand dot com check on my youtube channel for more spiritual videos, political insight, videos and tell me: do you want the truth to come back? Is that what you want? Because that's what on what jenny you down on that. Isn't it all you need, is a truce, isn't it and why it is, but why would you want to call it to choose again? It's not what what was the truth, but a lot of people. Then what. I yeah true news, true news, true to the truth, but also will probably get some graphics done. You know jazz things up a little bit, make it nice, please god, god willing inshallah check out my youtube video channels, there's loads of videos and a pretty bloody good, been working quite hard on them, get in touch with social media at rusty rockets hashtag under the skin instagram at Russell brand tiktok, all of them

distrust around caducibranch. Now they get into this interview with the wonderful insightful and brilliant philippa ferry to achieve equality with the annihilation of category, not successful. That's exactly right! We're in this era, where it turns out. We were never the fucking hot dog walks beneath the surface of people, with more of the idea is that the finance on the welcome to Russell brand, the philippa? Thank you so much for on and for helping me focus my intentions, which I think are hopefully broaden reasonable, do do agree. They some perfectly broaden reasonable.

Thanks for coming on to the main thing that we like her, let's talk about what you do in Europe, that's that I know this book the book you wish your parents had retro as a super, successful book or a slight that the paperback of that is coming out. That's the sort of perfunctory focus and there it is the bush you, the book you wish your parents had read and your children will be glad that you did and go on. Why, that means mama. My assumption is: it's like he breach the kind of an abyss between a parent and a child, but if not filled, somehow it could be problematic. And what is it's concentrating on your relationship with your child, because what we tend to do is pass down what was done to us and even if we have all the best intentions, we still do that unconsciously. So this is to help you have the best relationship with your child, which is what a child wants

It's a great, safe relationship with you know it they have. They want a great relationship with you and that's what's going to do them the most good in life, so you both one that none of us by definition, understand our own unconscious biases. So it is part of book bringing to the forefront the type of habits or turret territory of an awareness that you might be operating in. One of the big ones of that is that I, we tend to have the same feelings that we had when we were the same age as our kid. So Maybe there was a massive bus stop between parents. We will say three or something like that. So when the kid gets to be about three, you might start to feel insecure.

It might start to feel frightened and then, rather than feel these things, you might think. Hmm, I don't think parentis for me. I think I'll get divorced and then I'll. Let me have the kid have the time or, the same feelings come up for you as they came up for you when you with charles age, and it's really useful to unpick that anna, give examples in the book of that happening, and hopefully people can then recognise what is happening to them. Is that something that's under written fruit, clinical data, but people project trauma onto children? That's appropriate further is actual common matters. There was more on a boat or for the poor

It is not the sort of research you can do in a quantitative way. It is qualitative research, but it is has been noted in a lot of case studies by psychologists and psychotherapists yeah so low, I'm a parent, my children have four and tome and like at the er, when I think of it, my main focus is to try and study awake and aware and look at where I'm being led by them? when it is necessary or prudent to limit and sometimes prohibit their behaviors aspires, that's the challenge I face. There is because of the the priori responsibility to keep myself together. Yet it is an that's why when people say should I like, let my can't do this now

the other- I got I'm not responsible for laying down what limit should be. You know your own limits. What I say is that is really important to put down a boundary before you reach your limit. As you know, the after nine o clock at night and all you can do- is meltdown and and swear me. That's your limit right. There as you have to put your boundary down like a bow before, like eight o clock. So you can have a nice relaxed saw putting the kids down. reading them stories, whereas they give left it to later. You wouldn't be that nice person, so you have to Know what your own limit, so you might not like the idea that you can't give forever, but no one can we all need boundaries so that we can stay in a good mood really yeah. May I ask

you experimental in your own parent. In necessarily that's my first question what happens if there is conflict between if they're, in the case that there are two people means more to parents, yeah, I experimental well, I knew I didn't want to do to my kid. What don't been done to me, which was about saying I was feeling something. I feel sad. I feel angry. All I m hungry. Even I'd get back no you're, not. because it was inconvenience, lie I was never allowed to be unhappy, and this is a you know. Parents feel like they're failing if the child is unhappy, but you know we all have all the feelings and just because your child is unhappy about something that wouldn't make you unhappy, Sir Charles there'd be no jam for tea or wherever his doesn't mean to say, they're not devastated by it, and the whole world is falling apart by and rather than go. You shouldn't have these feeling,

switch makes you feel that you shouldn't be yourself, is much better to go. You so upset about there being no jem for tee. I can see you're absolutely gutted adults, but peace, not butter, would help in our own or whatever is you, can rather than telling them off for having feelings is go with scared. I call it into the scared. And so my parents never did that, and I did actually have a feeling that will this be dangerous, will she he feel terrible, because I'm saying yes, it is bad that the snow jumped to, I feel fear but she came up straight away, usually when I went with her feeling, because have to shout the loudest when we fail unheard said. The kid fields, in whatever is the feeling they can move on, they don't to stay stuck there, so that was a. That was a great experiment

and the other thing you asked me is like wet and two parents disagree about something. I think what you can agree about is that you each have your individual relationship with each child. Okay, so suppose it in the old days when we used to go out for the night suppose your co parent is going out for dinner or whatever and you're after with the kids and you go come on eight thirty bedtime or something they got mom, let's stay up till eleven. You don't want get into an argument about what is right and what is drawing said. That's what mom does I don't, because if I don't watch news not alone, I will lose it. So we have to go to bed now. So you can have your individual relationship with each child and it's kind of unrealistic to think you're going to have a you. Seed from about everything and rather than one

Have you been right or one of you been rotten smaller one of you does it like? they send the other one. Does it like I feel about when you said that thing about you know if I don't get worse news now or wherever a freak out do I sometimes feel like I am- I am I uncertain round reveal in my own evident fallibility, because I don't want them to think that their parents are not able to handle reality. Well, I I think it's so much better. If you say something light, and I don't want you to he said and cream bummed, because I'm frightened you'll be sick rather than saying I don't want you to eat a second green bunkers, you will,

sake. I think it's much better if we define ourselves rather than the child because he wants to be defined. Who wants to be to be told what they're? Like I mean? You must have been told what you're like by people who think you they know you and it it's not that pleasant unless they get it right, which they rarely do and your kid is no different. So it's, I think it's better to say, and I want you to hold my and when the cost of road, because I'm frightened of the cars rather than you will get run over unless you home my hand, sailor if yourself and then but yeah you're right, you don't want to say I'm gonna lose my shit unless you studies very unstable swinging, make is much better to say, I would prefer it if and

nor did the same with my ancient all died when he was in his dotage and he was getting in a group. A right mess with only met- and I said, in. I have got a chart for you and I've got a pillbox. So you know when to take what, when he gets to me that baby me and I just said: okay, you probably don't need it, but We need to do it for my sake, as I'm worried about it so so I worry less. Will you use the pill box and then he was fine with any thought was doing it for my sake and our children. The sand if they think about to hold a hand when I walk down the street because their frightened of getting lost okay here he had ass good too, bring that level of awareness to it so that people like cause? I suppose the fact is is that if you're not doing that, it's possible that one is projecting, unconsciously, their fear on to in know older person or younger person to make aid that you own your own feelings. I think I'm alright, but with that, I'm a twelve step.

As in you know, and it's a law, that's about inventory, owning your own fallibility and flaws. You know that stuff's right out the front with that, and what about Phila PA read something the other day. I cant remember where the the march of our parent in his predicate aid ones of protecting the child from sums real or imagined fret, rather than me dilation of like a set of values. I e like when I signed stuff like like they reason have had said. look. This is our house boats actually house up, we live here. We love you, don't talk to people like that. We are kind to people. We don't talk to people that that can hurt when you so giving them values. I won yeah. I think it's good to say you know

if you are on the other side or of being pointed out until you fire say, and you might, because all kids get mom. Look at that fat, lady and I think it's a good time to say it's not great talk about payment in front of them because they might not like it. They not feel sad. If you do that. So please don't do that. Then. I think that that's great and I think you're right we should do we should do value- is rather than what was the other thing marks over. Via predicate it'll consequence predicate yeah. Definitely, and I also wouldn't be doing bad news. I prefer it like. This is also a good way of putting them down. You know down those boundaries right. This is our values. We need to sleep at night. We need you, go sleep cause, otherwise we can't look after you as well as we would like to talk

yeah. What about when you want to sit like a man. We had this thing about nose. Picking like I like either I say we're doing it just then it's packet infill, a package like this is as a visual component to this podcast like I'm I'm er, What this is about me- and you know luckily I'm not talking through psychoanalyst, but I don't like to impose I don't like to impose too much regulation on my children's organic behaviour- and I certainly I agree with the use of shame in any area rags. I've put dangers that can be, and it made me call that someone always programme for a picky, my nose in a hotel and upload going? Don't we don't pick it up? while I'm eating my food from it, don't eat your food, while I'm picking my nose. Why is one say that? Why do you assume that your value system tropes were like my mate, who was with the menu an idiot man who'd like picking your nose? That's a sanction thing by wind, but why? Why

What is objective lacking in argument is, I wish I'd say if you'd been narrative have more concise, like pun, based in the eu, quality they without dude by suppose I come here firstly at it. Nothing, we shame, but what about lay something that MIKE one of my kids, she choose life, you started to her slave. No one thing about eyes: it makes me feel like it might be that she's frustrated or anxious, or something that here we have. That was you. Maybe she likes it bar. How do I? How would use Yes, guiding someone away from that was moves which you may and then you could only say what your personal preferences or can't you sort of like it makes me feel a bit a when people pick their nose and eating at the table. I wonder if you could do that. no one's, looking you'll, never stop doing it, because it's gorgeous in its great fun, but if you could do it when no one's looking it's kind of socially acceptable on hedge funds.

Try unexplained society and values pretty early on. In those conversation I mean those the value based thing it's my nose. The most is when people think that you should force your kid site. Please, and thank you like some sort of robot. Thank you very much, mrs pack, in a like that, whereas Did you show gratitude to kids? They know how to express gratitude. Anneal recognise it as a thing that they feel safe when they passed through the pretend cup of tea. Maybe the thirtieth pretend cup of tea that give knew that When you got off q, then they learn. Please, and thank you rather than

being drilled, should be something that you say but don't she'll. Yes, I recognise that if we let load him up with protocols, recreating ought automaton and am people that are not located in while their actual failings of their not being allowed to feel their own feelings. They must be, and indeed over, sneak up on so many pitfalls in parent and they can be costa phobia to air emissions and so many things. That is the idea which feel the lack of job security around my parents, because on let those that is their eyes that I'm looking at them, which I feel this impossible to and stick my dinner, my opinions and feelings about them and, as a result, my feelings about my parents get super supercharged for good and for ill. You know like ireland send to make me if a call, when somebody says descried your parents to me- and I think well

I can only really describe the feelings I had when I was with them. You know who am I to describe them and it's the same with your kids. You think about all the pitfalls, but I think if you concentrate on having the best relationship possible best for you and best for them, you know the best relationship you can have with them and they can have with you it's it's quite a good value to hold onto so you don't worry so much about the pitfalls. Of course, you'll make mistakes I think one of the biggest ones I made was like being overruled by my toddler's maths ability she could do long division when she was like before she could before she was drawing the not enough. She was like really clever on the massdrop, not so good, only not pissing yourself at night front, but you know swings and roundabouts. Anyway- and I say, oh, my god, you're amazing takeovers fantastic

We just do that and in retrospect, with the benefit of hindsight, what I should have emphasized more should have done was said. Oh my, you tried really hard at that and I'm so impressed for how long you can concentrate with and look how much effort you're putting in because she could do this math stuff. Without any effort whatsoever, says she didn't actually try and then, when she went to university and she was with all the other clever, it's that could do mass but they'd love to try she's got you have to put effort into this and I never praised the effort. I'd always praised the result. That was a terrible mistake, but you know she's forgiven me and that's good and steaks yeah. I feel you and lucky's are more transferable resource like try. If someone recognizes that something requires effort, then that's a resource. That's going to be super helpful in relationships and

Work or wherever yeah isn't even better. If you use a praise or note that someone trying hard someone's, punishing to concentrate it's so much better than if you said that such a good drawing, especially if you got two kids, because if you got one of two on one full of course, the four year old control better than the two year old. And so if you just praise the effort that goes into it, the two year old doesn't think I'm rubbish at drawing. Oh yeah, yeah yeah. And I tina fey in her biography or bug free said about like that. How she's never been attracted to men that don't tree as well, because her dad always made her feel that she was complete, that she was valuable and that she was enough, and when I like, I read that before I had children, unlike it's really influenced the way that I parent my children, but possibly

the point where I'm not leading them to believe that there are enough, but they are in fact, superhuman and beyond reproach or judgment. As I saw about like you know how unconsciously we, gender our parent and I like lights on some swedish document, drawn up again before I kid sorta like them away You are brave. You are strong view. Our power of observe teach them abbe, darth vader

yeah, yeah yeah, both my children ago. This is a lovely book actually called gender swap fairy tales, and it's it's. It's illustrated by Karen efficient with k and what it is. It's, like all the fairytales in in beautiful sort of nineteen, fifteen language and they've just swap the genders coup, so you can have vulnerable princes and you can have brave princesses and it's just such a lovely book, because it's all the classic fairy tales and it some gender swapped know, but it gets stuck and it makes the reader you getting out back so aware of your unconscious bias. Putting on a minute this princesses brave dusk, that's what I told him. I had asked the straight into the fire. With this this prince less did she was felt and I say that is a good way of exposing

hands over the council. Let down you bid our haha, idea of climbing up a bit rebates, a dinner in it. pretend you do so for the part boys there you're, like the type of psychotherapy that you practised practice, is it like. I was interpreted, what does that mean? It means is integrated, which means that. It- I must first shining was in humanistic, psychotherapy, the stall and all of that, and the second shining was more so no analytic soccer dynamic, and then I love a bit. Existential, throw it all in and then, when you ve been practicing for years and years and years, the sort of therapy you d shout is philippa therapy really because the best thing you can base yourself and yet you for all the fairies backing you up,

the research backing you up, but what people need anything is a relationship with you. So if I can be myself with another person, that's probably for the best do stuff I patient, I don't have any new patients, yeah just see people you've seen for ages or how I have what you call product recalls from time to time. This needs fixing the ok come back the last five ten years as seen. The rise of I want to own as public intellectuals in a couple of instances from your field, or whether jordan, pizza and or or mattei, who apply the principles of psychoanalysis and psychotherapy to broader social issues. Is that something you do yourself and have you got an opinion on that? I like to apply and all theories

about human beings onto all situations, and I like to do so cross fertilisation. All of different disciplines is well I'm very interested in after policy and how we behave as groups say, and I love you. I love to take any reading the very politically incorrect stuff about previously uncontacted tribes.

I mean it's politically incorrect, because you know we tend to impose our values on them and see them through that lens and give them all coles, which is terrible because it kills them. So we shouldn't be going around contacting uncontacted tribes, but when people have done that and I've read, their studies have been absolutely fascinated and one of the main things that fascinates me about it is this: a woman called margaret mead who are competent and her book can't remember, but she did this looking at different tribes in the end, the cultures and their attitudes and In papua new guinea, she found the arab pash and among the door and the arab pash had they were really chill they loved each other. They cooperate

they collaborated with each other. They they're all that babies with well worth it. Child led waning. They played with their over time. They had equal parenting, equal work, They were, they were totes chill and really nice people. However, they were so nice that they only have stony ground to live on because- and so they quite often went a bit short food and they didn't have much stuff, they had the rocky shore, but the fish came and went so. They had no kind of sustainable source of food, whereas the munger do who lived in the valley. They were aggressive and you could tell when monger do people that had had sex because both parties would be covered in

crashes because the way of having sex was to attack each other and they are breastfed standing up and as soon as the baby soft stop for air, they hung it back on the basket on the wall. Again, they were kind of brutal and they argued they thought they killed each other. There were cannibals, but that they had the lush valley. I had the beautiful fertile ground, so they could grow, really good crops, they had surplus or they could buy stuff that could get nice. You know woven stuff, the boat's fancy fleets from other tribes isn't stuff, I said they had staff and they were comfortable and they didn't starve, but they had horrible personal relationships and, and the arab pash didn't have much, but they loved each other and it's a bit light. It's a bit like democrats and republicans, isn't it.

I mean sort of like when I'm out for me- and I want my stuff all, but we should share, and I feel like that kind and those other tribes as murray and worry army from the pacific islands that worry what the aggressive warriors, which is why we got them around today. they survive, but they worry, I might be getting the next. Will these tribes from some very dyslexic they were. They were the chill hunter gatherers that the never had any surplus and they were wiped out by the other ones,

so it's difficult isn't there and what do we be? Do we be our pension not have enough to eat and be wiped out, or do we be monger, do and tumble over everyone, and must be, I think, are our job is to be something in the middle isna. Yes, I mean it stands to reason that we will ever the dominant values are of our time are the values that have succeeded? The owner in a sense, are the product of evolution and thus of natural selection, or indeed, agricultural industrial technological selection. About time now that power dynamics have shifted so radically and accuse decisions can be made by rail. If we concentrate group of people, but it's almost a social darwinian dream to hear that the monger doors were living up in lush valleys, while they are a peshwa scratching around in pebbles.

rebecca grain and open there, a fish might turn up once in a while here, but they Mangano killed each other with aggression, but they are a push die from starvation. So it's a lose lose situation. Being human is now putting some years death is concerned. As a bad result than you have to acknowledge here? We all know where it's headache by like em. I, for, I think, also a lot about anthropological em for policy in the centre of its application to me and people. Now. I feel like that. My in my own life, I think how can I emulate, if not synthesize conditions that would the amenable to what I'm evolved for for what we vote for our hundreds and thousands of years, so that we are not entirely dislocated or sebastian Numa says in his book. Try If it were living conditions, it is difficult to imagine a worse condition for the type of animal we are then living

concentrate aid cellular itemised. I save greedy? We are pack animals way you know we should be in a village of about two hundred and forty people, and we should be in family about fifteen, and we should have about six. Close friends were beyond that: its gates tricky beyond that it gets tricky cause. People have different values and believe different things. Yes, that's right, I'm like him. Standing firm like a primate, sees a group of split at around one hundred and four eons of reform itself and is also studies about liking, those who have the myth of the alpha MAO and the white. Actually, this alpha female, be a I wasn t mouse s over in a delicately balanced ecosystem of high rocco power. I do feel, though, that, like critically at this over a rather fractured tom, you've already alluded to in your of monger door, our apash analogy, as well as accurate, historical,

opting perfectly pronounced by the way that we serve leave at this time. Where am I feel it is becoming evident that there is such an ideological diaspora that we're trying to rein in enshrining under one dome of amerika the united kingdom, when perhaps these, rather than that, these ideas of perhaps I may not- is the idea of nation whose products served its purpose has taken us as far as it can beginning to feel a little bit false and a little bit of fashion. Doesn't it because they than asians that seemed that seeing them as powerful as than nation of amazon or the nation of microsoft, like these big companies seem to have more power, I would be surprised at the start, getting their own army soon. Well, digital armies or something here, because it does seem a bit on the way we ve organised, or so.

And if you think, if you look at territories of honour on a mac maraldi in honor animation, where all the boundaries move the whole time, nothing stays the same. and maybe on nationhood thing, we're the birds were the first country in the world has outlived it, sir usefulness or purpose yeah yeah, even its plausibility, because there were so many opposing values. Out where, in today's that spicy, ultimately imaginary conceptual knows, and all ideas about our history is about so of ethnicity. Ordinaries, about diversity. Progressive is amazing about mobility. Sophie's, like us, are increasingly feeling what long as people on her in rail slammed sat there I'll try. But I do to help. I want really lucky, like you know, like you win, these recent fractious is what the hell they want,

might be to kill me. I think that now that falls under the first bit her and other people. They can't ok, dumping. As argument in this a confederacy, the plot plotting on the back of this envelope, haven't begin no homicide. Homicide yeah, that's great. If we all agree to know what side I'm on for that, and I said let these conversations I found myself having philippa about let people trying to agree on some basic values that help to bridge this of this apparent bifurcation. This seems to be occurring everywhere and perhaps do you feel like at your artist also on you as well as a psychotherapist howdy? What do you feel of the role of art? Is,

helping us to create and evolve new ideas and systems and ways of communicating with us on an individual level in a family, sale, rina, workplace or brought more broadly is useful shaw, processing in kuwait feeling. So some things you just can't put into words, but you might feel satisfied with something you ve made It seems to represent what you feel and then somebody looking at your representation might go. Oh, I feel that too, all that smith, that's brought up a feeling in me. I didn't know I had, and so it it's useful on that level and I suppose it was useful in the past as a unifier, because you could tell bible stories with art if you if people were illiterate and so that we could all believe in the same thing, which would

which would bring us together as a tribe but you'd think, as we all believe in money now that could bring us together, but it doesn't seem to have done so. No I love what you said about like a accessing, incur emotion or unconscious territory, cause that reminds me sort of where we began with your talk of parent, in that we have to be able to access inner resources as yet on harnessed. I felt when I once when I see a francis bacon, a cant remember what it was, but of maybe it was that pope in a box or something

I remember thinking? Oh my god, like you notice, dude has spent time are free. I am god god, god just from the way that that pain is rendered, and I you know that that is impossible to articulate beyond, as I've just demonstrated a shriek which is probably not worth as much it's quite interesting. Oh because it's some when you study all you realize it has got quite a complex language. that isn't accept accessible to someone or someone who hasn't study that will have a very different reaction to it. so into language, like any other, really is just a language blob if it will artistically lire

culturally well. I know I am when it comes to the art of other cultures, like I haven't ever studied, say japanese or art, and are many just beginning to get it, and so I think, yeah. I think we can be really illiterate about other cultures. Oh yeah cause it's just as complex and, as a you know, cause we're all doing about humans

keep the human experience, so it is all equally complex, but we must, we might think. Oh, that's, very simple shapes it's much harder to cure a squirrel than it is to do blobby blobby to remind superior, not necessarily yeah, and do fill that in, if, like in the language and in teleology younger, to use the word teleology or tell us of a therapy. There is a kind of inherent individualism and the real solution based therapy has to be by it's nature, relational and in the

you ve been in community. I think everything has to be relational in order to get solved. We are formed in relationship, so we re form in relationship, and so I think this of westernize individualistic view is kind bunkers, because you know, as we said earlier, we are pack animals so is it not the pack that drives us mad when they all see something differently to wait than what we do is we think by going mad and then isn't it, the pack that has to come and look at it from our angle, so that we don't go mad so bad that we all expand cause. We all look at things through each other's viewpoints. Everybody has an individualistic view. Do you know if I hold up?

If I hold up this box, you might say yeah, that's a box with pictures of headphones on. God knows It's got writing on it. It's got no hit pictures of headphones and it's the same box, because I'm looking at the writing side. I think what we have to do is continually turn the box around. So we all will have beer can understand each other's subject. In view of the world, because it takes longer than going I'm right, but it may lead to less mad. I think you write the pluralism and, to a degree, you know really evasion. My life is an unnecessary. Ever this ashamed cost of speed, bassa

One of the culture imperatives, the other wish could be to a degree. Your team is one of the things I've always been in a hurry is the one of the things that does kids the most harm actually because they have their own pace, which has that taking more it they have, they don't select what they're looking at or what they're experiencing like. We deserve everything takes a bit longer for them and I think it's quite important to go at the child's pace. when you can, otherwise they just get a feeling of being late and being in a hurry and being anxious. It makes them anxious, were me, say: hurry up hurry up to them. There

He always say if you're worried about getting in time for school just get up an hour earlier, yeah just just chill just relax a bit. Let them watch a cartoon while we're putting on their shoes or wherever the two year old down, because I'm so prone to anxiety, and fear. I try not to lean to them kind of energies. Oh if I stay just you know. If I'm a cop there's enough energy all their janusz, like I feel it when I start doing that, like it starts it made me, go crazy, like I've access I reckon a different kimono war, even neurological greed. When I start soviet, it seems to me that the imposition of will I try to prioritize surrender a above everything a minute something starts making may not.

harm like it when I'm on my guy might stepped back and suffer right use now, you're moving out of safe territory, now you're moving out of that part of your personal sovereignty, where I can be relied upon to listen, and do you know so fair and all that once I start you may eight precisely in the ordinary domestic, a if it will be a relatively privileged family that live there. The concert feel that turbulence of what we're gonna do this we're going to do that. I try to maintain a kind of real lassie faire attitude to most things unless it's at odds with my own, rather what an incisive, simplistic ethics around compassion, kindness like, and if I'm recently, when I'm tired or distracted in some other way, fearful or wherever that, then I do suddenly want to control reality. I guess because I feel out of control.

Yeah I I sometimes have a sort of rushing thing in my head. Why should you be? What should you be doing? Why are you here a while, when we rush would come on hurry up hurry up, it's sort of like a can in the days when we used to go into town, I could be in town and somehow think I had to rush home, and there was nothing I had to rush home for, but had this thing

it's from my dad who was always in a hurry, and he was always telling me to hurry up, and it's almost like that- I sort of imbibed a hurry up hurry up message that here I am at sixty three and I can still be ruled by it. If I don't go what why am I rushing? Why come home? Why do I have to get a car home or don't I can walk, or it's not doing it for anyone? The rushing is just sort of light, almost like it to interject. I had the I don't need and I find it really difficult to get rid of, and I was very concerned not to pass the one to my child yeah his mum, I must say, parent in his making

be more mindful, because I recognize something that you said earlier. I and our research that you know that they are probably much more influenced by what I'm doing than what I'm saying and if they see me staring at phone, rushing being fearful frustrated that that could have more impact. we'll never route to people, and we always try to understand one another. Yeah yeah because show words: they understand what they mean, and then you can have a little conversation bar most communication is just being with someone, which is why it's so much better to zoom than it is to have a telephone call. Compare phone calls your finger. Yet the visual component is vital. It's a bit crap because it's a screen and that, but it's it's better than a phone call. Did you do much activism and stuff phillip, because

I do like how you seem like someone who just sat around making decisions slowly round full stop until conflict phobic for activists in iowa, yeah it I'd get a bit to have too much adrenalin and and and and what's that were caught is all I just get poisoned by these things at a comp function. So I'm not much of an activist on me. The old tweet up up up up up up up up study on one the other day saying in the pit? Isn't it a pity we make kids learned things off by heart, rather than allowing them to follow that only night curiosity got that's a spur us I'd go when it comes to act is busy. Children are so interested in everything and if we just allowed them their curiosity and encourage that

open guy. You have to learn this year. Here we colonizing their consciousness of fruit. You know fruits of year by by wrote I feel like one of his announcement myself if they are in Heaven me and organically present in the moment- and I am teaching them hey, what did you do earlier would later on we gotta. Do they sums of training em, like not be. the living. There is not to be alive because we ve only got now. Oh god, I used to have this sort of american teach psychotherapy at one point and she said to me what she say If you live in the past and you live in the future, you pissing on the present. She said he ass. He accent the action she used to be fritz pulses. Girlfriend. Nothing here is that she cooled

I didn't rehearse- I didn't know- I don't know, I didn't do anything approaching the very sorry you're told great I'll, be on the end. She's dead. Now, don't look. We ve got the internet for It's rather than losing yourself in limitless news, fades and banal to learn anything off by heart. Now we can google everything yeah everything's, just at the end of our fingertips. Sometimes I feel like I want to teach my kids like. These are the kinds of things I might project, though, have not acted on it. Like I, don't want him to speak those languages, one fair play loads of instrument someone's be rightly or renaissance people If you lead loads of languages right, why don't I do it? I'm alive you're, a huge threat to art. That's why they'll copy you, whatever you do, they'll copy. I was so pleased with my kid went off to union do chemistry, but she's end up doing she writes books and illustrates now I mean the apple.

Didn't fall far from the tree after all, yeah the magnetism of those grades. That were present too powerful to resist yeah, or so your your truck your child to adult twenty eight years old by your age. Probably, oh god, you sweet, woman, Tat tat was very very definitely down. I know I knew I was lying on. I knew I knew I was joking dear. What took it and hate you not mentioned young in your various lists of influences,

What do you do, unlike his archetypes, is he's a he's a bit too spiritual for me, I'm pragmatic because of the right, the humanist influence. How do you make with this, because I think the spirituality, this pragmatic, have encouraged to give peoples sight of like a system that stops them getting dominated by the manville, like that sort of let that sort of mice of one take and experience of spirituality, and it's actually what have draws me to young, and I wonder how to use of chaos then Ines over from a humanist perspective for ideas like that ideas, like love and transcendence, and so values that kind of bring together people in a way that's necessary, as we've discussed in the podcast.

when we talk about anthropology without recourse to serve spiritual ideas, swell spiritual ideas are just not just that they are stories to make sense at how we feel- and I like stories to make sense of how I feel- and I think my stories are probably No, then can be superseded by other stories, but there they sort of based more on behavioral psychology. I would call it then spirituality. So

You know a spiritual way of saying what I say would might be the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children, whereas I might say you'll tend to do you know what and what your parents did to you. So because you remember that I mean, I think, the stuff that we can't make sense of, and we and we make up stories to try and make sense of it, and I think that's beautiful that we do that and we'll carry on doing that. It's not that I don't believe in beauty and- and I do think there's a huge value. And transom that was the word transcendental. Psychology is as well as ways that that is about it, State, no really. What is by its. I think it's more about its more about thinking that the unconscious might be coming from a higher power

Where is, I would say that is more of a collective unconscious and people together in have an atmosphere of feed off each other. I I think three people together are as good six six people paw ignite. I think I think, think a power of being too, but I gather that I don't quite another and I think this soft threads between us. I don't get and can't explain, but For instance, what I did coil of group serve me and I it feels so moved by the group of behaving and acting as a whole as a sort of one body when we got really into something or we all felt something at the same time when someone was talking like he might get to a say when someone says something that just strikes a note with everybody and everybody's crying at the same time, it's just a beautiful moment.

and now some people might describe something like that. As, like a you know, a spiritual moment, and I might describe as that's what happens in groups. So I'm that's what I mean by being a bit more prosaic a bit more didn't mean prosaic. Do I a bit more pragmatic rather than spiritual? I never know what spiritual means. It means something different to everybody. I think so. I can't pin it down so I didn't offer, but I think it does mean different things to everyone, because in a sense is we're dealing with the ineffable and that, can't be seen and I think the spiritual, a like any idea really is. Is coin door has to be evaluated by utility and

When you're saying like you know, the sins of the father are all you'll likely do that cause. He had data wherever, for me, that's about inflection, because the idea behind it is in a sense indistinguishable, whether there's doubtless a cargo in stomach is couched in terms of sort of monotheism, say, but the thing that you said about group and group therapy aka, like a little experience by there, have been for a couple of treatment centers for a couple of forms of addiction. I wonder philip was it addiction that you, if they're weaving in group, set into well? I worked at a drug and alcohol foundation for awhile as a group leader and say I have watching groups, but I've never worked on my own addictions in groups or you got some have you? Oh you shoot telly, probably drink too much, but don't drink that much more than the guidelines less than falling.

I'm drunk. as long within them guide you guide or your outside the guidelines outside the guidelines, I'm not too small, glasses five nights, a on three big glassy six nights a week amounts the guidelines as control. If you look out your window, philip that Van pulling up the I've arranged for All I can say is more take me away. I see my own reflection, which is perhaps episode in an instance such as this, the light side of that my down drug and alcohol thing running groups, because ass mob light ass, my so Why not really enjoyed it, because I just love the people on man. I thought they were gorgeous and Was it day program or is it rested grandma and they were,

Well, I've been through treatment centre and this was like us half way, houses of a place to come in the day, and I do up therapy and stuffed with them and draw a picture way. You were in the past. It's your picture where you see yourself in the future, draw a picture where you see yourself now and then, let's all talk about it, how cool? I love that I love all. I think about metaphors for about. What's your dreams, little bring it tomorrow about what we dreamt about last night. Let's all work with that. I had a lovely time with them and then you know I just sometimes I say: let's all talk about ourselves for two minutes each and see what comes up and then I'm going to stop you after two minutes, just to get people talking the great I'm just people just so

it it's beautiful, and I am always always- and I can tell this with permission, because he gave me permission, but I can remember this scottish drunk guy that had been drunk since about the age of nine, and he was about forty and he'd sobered up and he I can remember him me really read a harrowing stories about how his mother left him and he was left with a very violent father, haste pentium out, which dislike absolutely horrendous and he said- and I only got through because I actually believed I was the queen son and this- and this regime was put on me to toughen me up cause. I was going to have to be king one day and everybody in the group laughed and I said, stop laughing. I was absolutely furious sort of stopped laughing. This is beautiful. This kept this man alive, you are so clever. Your unconscious is so clever to come up with that story, I mean that's just an example of the

I met and the and the clever ways they got out of that hideous predicament, and I never blame anyone for wanting to wipe out what they're feeling when they're feeling so awful- and I think it's great that you know with fellowship and being understood and being validate it. They can leave substances that harm them behind and I had a lovely three years working there and I don't know how I got the job because others. I was at second therapy. Try, me when I got the job.

And I you know those jobs where the the paid psychotherapy, trainee jobs are really really difficult to get to. The zoo is about ten people up for each job and arthur or I won't get it from us, we'll just be really truthful. So they said what do you know he lightened groups and went oh well. What usually happens within about ten minutes meeting a new group is that I hate someone and I adore someone and I try my best not to act on it. No I'm just bringing a dynamic of my family of origin from the past to the current situation, but it's a real struggle sometimes not to be in. wait with someone and not to you know, put someone else on a pedestal, and that's just what I do. I so split off like that with a wall won't get the job, and I did and I to give them up,

I am obviously mad loony and do that as well. You know you're mad, so you might know act on it so it was nice. I really enjoyed that job. It was great. What am I enters a said to me that when he said philip like, like you, said, If a person, when you give him a new born light baby, if it crosses your minds of fry over balcony Abou, he goes thats a person. That's in touch the shadow and is probably more reliable. So let us hold a baby and I feel, like we ve that thing itself, incentives, true to the creed of the group, to acknowledge it I to acknowledge and then auto, even to know all this is a process of projection and in acting rather than people gain and then not name because it like anyone, that's participate in group therapy use see some crazy stuff. When I was in first in treatment, thought that there was someone I I didn't. if I was a bit more in tune and let wasn't so recently a crack and heroin attic, I'm short of saying I just was. He was my step that let you know that

this guy, who was sort of had that kind of a heaviness to aim. I was a bit intimidated by this dude. You know it was like: oh, Westray ed and wanted to rebel against his will for a which he didn't have by the way through for a the eyes of enough credit him with one of the therapists have therapists became, which are just room to fill up. A desk like. I, like reminded me of, like she became the benevolent mother to me like who, in fact like said exactly like up well done russell for becoming a heroine attic. She found a way you I found a way to survive. I love you and I said yet as a law drama in there, and also this of that there is such a view. If the ruinous and thinking my god, you can trust these fuckin lunatics to say stuff to each other and then such profundity aliens are being in poetry and ruin us. You know

oh, it's it's beautiful and I don't blame anyone for believing in spirituality after they've been in a lot of groups, cause groups and beautiful, I call it fellowship. I think I'm not sure. Yes, yes, certainly in some traditions, certainly I am yeah. I love law and I have as perhaps, as a result of that stuff have certainly embraced for me spiritually. I suppose it means a set of values and principles that I use to combat my tendency towards ego, centrism, selfishness, selfish selfish self, destructive behaviors, no survivors that have a negative impact on others. That can, in my mind, that method, I've been taught only be sort of an a guy eat or overcome fru. The practice of these principles, which spoon very effective. I must in all remain, albeit albeit slowly? Well, thanks, philip prepared for coming on air joy is anything you want out take an hour now on a ship.

All the matter. Propositions are probably done if you could take those that that be great and then just somebody's voicing saying the correct word over the top I'd like that, the monger door tried our a push yeah. No, I mean, I think he said it was probably in may, stream of malaprop isms, given the I'm never contributed to the conversations I wouldn't concerns over that really enjoyed myself. I do not know what to expect, but I've I've I've had a lot of fun. I felt my I've met. You thank you. I feel like I've met you too. I love you in Grayson's, a show about art and everything and like oven, have known about he him and his work and have always felt a kind of a fin aches arteries from a similar background, semis of essex and other things are identified. Yea Idea- and we are so like a is a great pleasure to lie. I haven't.

now, more familiar with your work and perspective is lovely to meet you philippa. Thank you love me each say, and congratulations on your podcast and indeed lie. Thank you. So much very, very well has net yes is turned out. The kids, that's a bay is a a cant believe. Is there when I wake up, I can't believe, I think, of their faces or cant, believe it I believe, because that'd be jumping up and down on your stomach. I expect guess that's where I actually have sustained love abdominal uneven genitals. Injury is a result of their willingness to assault me from the sky. Yeah you're, not a privilege that ours is what a way to go. fangs philippa and if you ever need a want anything from a place you know are very commissioner. I know you ve got a very well start. Would shed behind you? Can I offer you some locks, loves and locks love luxor. Do we split them for kindling with a hatchet

left, to do A log anyway, ogier looks and your way and a hatchet, perhaps by philip facilities before perhaps what did he say? So I said I'll: send you a hatchet and a hatchet and a look which I'm sort of thinking about actually doing. Even though that'd be fantastic comment, flight travel on public transport with them people don't like heart, shaped people are superstitious. Fragile, as we shall lay all throughout my thank you see a sincere thank you. under the scheme with philippa perry lemonade before via an instagram contact. The mayor of toronto. Tweet me at rusty rookies, with a hashtag under the skin sonra to a man at least that Russell brand of comical some exciting. coming up soon about an audible, original new book coming out will be talking to you about that more in the

future get to my mailing list at Russell Randle com to get informed about things first and to be included in this community which has imperatives beyond I promise you. I promise you. The relentless promotion of further products will be back next week in the meantime, if you enjoyed this conversation with philippa, why not check out these episodes with jordan, peterson Gabo, my eye or sam harris, keep checking my youtube channel for new videos continually, although you know look out a window or laws will study the sky integrity breath and think about how beautiful you are and your inherent freedom thanks to listening to under the skin from luminary