Hello, I'm welcome to under the skin with me Russell brand this week speaking to nick esters. Nick is an indigenous scholar, activists and assistant. Professor of american studies the university of new mexico is research, engages colonialism, global indigenous histories, decolonization or history? U s imperialism. You liked him a lot in agenda as well as great you worried about the audio colleagues of the kids know it's him, he'll be fine, I am atmosphere and accomplished over them it's like really atmospheric of our german shepherd at my fate. You want a bit him up and nano literally banana, and there were kids everywhere, tell me: what did you think of aid charisma chemist? but remained me cast as I did not notice it. Why do you think you're buying nobody He got make this very clear maybe,

hey you in this way, this answer, what have you got my glasses? Are there to keep What did you pay in that chair black on radio? Were no more about may happen in this. Maybe twenty years love love. actually amazing, yeah. No, it couldn't come around a the bit of reflection. Oh yeah, that's nice! How much it's out loud moment. To me, the toronto, I am not ever going to say, never gonna say you can say maybe in pads- and I wouldn't say I know how well that Brian, whatever It's jack hundred good sunglasses. Well, there's people starving people haven't both in less than three years, You you've been a must be sort of pressure. Was you ve every time you come down? What do you do to cherish,

cherish them. I to touch the lenses with your nurse vices spindly, grimy love, greece greasy little like the thin fingers of a thin like the last time, and I got there and allay I've thought about for a long time. when I had that crystal healing session, you gave me and I went and bought them cause, I felt so happy yeah. That happens a lot. Sometimes I feel spiritually elevate. You didn't. The only way I can express myself is by putting Seeing someone now I only have two pays, so it's not like I'm excessive just down the other. That's okay this facing sunglasses or a luxury item. Love people spend a lot of money. I don't feel guilty, you ve been out. trot ski dates. No, I with another person on dating who is it you wanna m or not enough one. I've always had a married man. No not me. why is it then? While I approve because it's not fair anything meaningful, watch

points you hated, my man if I die nihilists liar lists out much emotion in my mind already through the interest, the quality of the dogs in some interesting visits today, hello, little dog, or I will look that constitution banter whenever the killing you that was from the bandit decanter time now for the comments from the got with Adrian episodes. Natasha redwoods, holistic therapy, love love, love this woman she's going for a lot. This lock down for amazing online classes, just craig, oh sweet adrian, been there me more wisely, she could ever imagine jesse that absurd yogurt. I father, my spiritual one out of this world, relaxing I've literally fallen asleep, while treat to see a speaking. The route of all I loved herself cosmic, adrian if we manage our everyday this year due to a month account the colleges and inspiration,

The improvement in body and mind are amazing. She takes her work seriously that doesn't actors have to seriously our work seriously. I ok, now, instead of doing a found out what feels good? Well, that's? What more could you want from a teacher agree with, those coming here Well, you going to keep the sunglasses on now. The world looks so good right now. What was it like? Orange is kind of golden tint. Guess I I'll go. It can a governor in their oh? Yes, I purchase these markets no water cause even in the shop. You fix them to fit my hand perfectly I'll. Go these costs. If they'd, like your new hotness marry, the girl was, if I could, why don't you pug go on a dating app and just get yourself a ten grand verizon incident on the dating app where you knew sandra? What's this app you're on not telling you because it pay for not now I never favor I don't know who you are, but if you can be a bit on this rabbit, fluff on the side,

time. In other words, a shout out undetermined musings is every choose their cleaner house, while listening to your show, if you ever want to what europe is doing or listening will now you know, I do wonder. I like to think that sitting quietly perfectly still absorbing every word I'm walking with. well that thinking about how, when you get to Heaven, you'll find out jenny's. Actually, the missile that'd be very unlikely, maybe in the alpha place and your I have to ask very nicely to be let in anywhere hear more about your thoughts on education, yep. Tat ward off, if it We changed the world. while avenues you ward off If they're going to charge the world, I think it would start with teaching children and adults adults different, whereas a lot of sense in what you're saying there and is it's difficult to argue with that hype? Listen

as I'm alive, I'm going to be doing live date, so keep watching. Now, if you're, not a member of my mailing list, I a Russell brand dot com get on it now, because I'm going to be announcing some live tour dates very, very soon, so watch out for that announcement okay, let's have a listen to nick estes educator and, as gen would have it flood trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of category successful. That's exactly right! We're in this era, where it turns out. We were never the boss walks beneath the surface of the people, with more of the ideas that define outs on the welcome to Russell brand and the sky nick estes. Thank you. Much fair, joining me on my podcast under his skin, takes around me. Do you know that we em we used there, I'll call, you wrote as the basis.

Video on my youtube channel lacquer a week ago. I feel it. yeah we released it like a couple of days ago about. I read your area. I read your our corner. A really enjoyed it and I enjoy learning from someone who come from a place of a kind of ethical certainty from a from a from a tradition and are so thanks for writing that and I'll. I wonder I wonder how you feel the kind of these kind of in a grey aid systems that for once, for all of us. Just I don't know folk me. Follow g in folk away, in us aware matter. Where are geographically discovered, there appear to be certain correlatives connection to land. And totemism desk, of the sacred. I wonder if you feel

These ideas are gonna be useful if we are to oppose the negative effects of the kind of advances were experiencing currently rim. The short answer is yes, But I think it's in my work, I'm a historian by trade. In my work, I really look historically at how we ended up here how you know that we ended up with you know at anthropogenic climate change and capitalism specifically as a system has destroyed, as you called it, you know folkways or other ways of being or other alternatives to it, and he in the united states or what is now the united states in north America. I would say that

indigenous people. You know I'm lucky time from the the lakota people. My tribe is the law, a browser tribe, but what indigenous people demonstrate? I think, especially in a place like north america is that capitalism as a system that you know organised on the profit motive and the codification of nature and people is not inevitable. In social evolution or social development and cultures, and so the the article that you mentioned on bill gates was really rebuttal to this kind of idea, like great men of history or wealthy, wealthy men as thought leaders in in our culture and our global culture and really looking at like the inequality of that kind of relationship, especially somebody like bill gates, but for my purposes

from where I am from as a as I point out that article somebody like a to a medium logo, like ted turner, owns hundred thousand acres of our treaty territory and It raises the question: why does a single man own more land than an entire nation you know and what single person on you know have more gdp so to speak, then vote then many countries in the world, and I think what I was trying to demonstrate in that peace and thinking about how inequality and global capitalism play into climate change. You know You can see you can name a hundred corporations, a hundred companies. That are most responsible for seventy percent of carbon emissions. You know these people have addresses, they have homes, you know, and you can you can

an m narrow it down to a sort of ruling class ideology and these people play in outsize role in determining the future of the plant? and you know, land use patterns, and so that's really, as somebody who's both a historian, but also somebody engaged and the climate justice movement. something that I really think a lot about and, in terms of you know, do people think that they have the power to change this. certain you know global reality. We only have thirty years, like there's, there's literally a time clock on this. That's not something that we can debate and come to terms with that. So we can identify that their distinct class. You know character, as to how we understand not only climate change. How we got here, but also solutions, and I think somebody like bill gates, You learn mosque in the richest man in the world player, You know enough,

is influenced in in what it means to transition away from fossil fuels also how we use the land and our relationship with it, and I would say that indigenous knowledge is in? Should it be like thus solution to climate change definitely is a foundation of establishing correct relations with what we would call, perhaps the natural world, but it can't just. I call on us again fall on. One group of people- and it has to be everyone who who comes to that table azure effect very once I read a ah by an activist. Could I think his name's Russell made, who is also an actor yeah like when it like, real effective my political opinions when he said, though, the be said that people my culture see capitalism and communism as different sites,

of the same coin, both issue that the land or become modify the nature is a resource to be utilised in brutalized, show me by a philosopher, welsh, philosopher, cool brad, evans and avoidance of surveys? A warlike, in the cultural conversation. These distinctions between of it relies state, is em and centralized capitalism at present. It is these increasing risk. Gideon spectra of power- the a when, in fact it's just I saw a singular moat dollar a in terms of the important relationship between us as custodians of the planet. Oh, you know, or just people there on a planet. This scene is Kind of a source of energy and food and staff- and I wonder, may the historian, If this is a problem that you tributes to capitalism, whether the problem began,

we've capitalism in the last great wave of influential men and thinkers from this of you know, steel and energy of one hundred years ago in your country. If you even consider it your country and yeah, I mean, I think, the the speech that you're about universal means is actually from our nation. He's lakota he's a very famous of the american indian movement who was a visionary at his time as his time that he was alive in the sense that? You know he made this larger claim? I think that was written, influential to me, and he said you know, there's one race of nation or run race of people that has never been represented at the united nations and that's the red race or the indigenous people of the americas. The speech that he gave That you're referencing was kind of rejoinder too sort of left idea that progress is based on simply extraction right

it's not to say that all left projects are all socialist projects are fundamentally based on. You know. Extractive unit technology in extract oil extraction itself. Is this that lake. turn society as a colonial society. That's that, as you know, invaded You know what russell means would consider his nation in his territory. Our nation in our territory did so not because they dislike hate indians. They hear culture, they you know, are our religion or whatever its, because we possessed a commodity that they desired and that's land rape. So we became racial and we became indians not because of our culture and not because of our language, not because of our work

view. We became indians because we had the land right and there are all there all kinds of indians right. There's the west indians there is the east indians right. So this is a this is a kind of british spanish colonial project, And- and so that's that's what he was talking about in this particular in that particular speech, And- and I do think that When we talk about things such as development, you know it's always, especially in a nations of the first world that the global north. We talk about development in terms of consumerism and cons, consumption and thinking about you know social development in terms of what

kind of house. You have you know how you know how many cars do you drive? What kind of food do you consume right, whereas that doesn't really get to the fact that you know in a in the country that I live in, there are extreme disparities that some people don't even have homes. Some people wake up hungry some people, you know, don't have the security of of you know, of safety, of a of a safe place to seat sleep or just the comfort of

in amongst people, and so when we think about. I think it's radically reshaping how we understand, like human, social development and in meeting human needs, such as hunger housing. You know just basic notions of safety. That's fundamentally different, then saying that to be happy in this world or to live the good life one has to consume, and we understand, if that, if that mentality was applied to the rest of the planet, if the rest of the planet developed through the carbon consumption through the material consumption, the way that the united states has developed, we actually need three planets right. For two to facilitate that level of consumption, so thinking about development in a radically different way, but also, I think, were where what russia

means was talking about in this particular speech, and you know his his kind of life work was thinking about his time. If you give me that speech in eighty he was saying things such as water is life. in that wasn't just an indigenous claim that wasn't just like you know. Indigenous people have some mystical relation with water. He was saying that you can there's only so much you can take out of the ground, there's only so much you can pollute when you know it gets to a point where it's like I'll drink from the same well and you know we are facing the same pot, and so when. we're in a wind, indigenous people are at the forefront in saying waters. Life are not saying it is as a particular claim that oh, it's us indigenous people who know best and A need water in some special relationship is its we're saying no breathed the same air, you the same water and you live on the same land as us, so we are

the struggle? He actually gave this speech, in fact in front of a bunch of white farmers, sutlers white settlers who had settled his land and they brought together a sort of union called the black hills. Alliance of of white ranches is called the cowboy and indian alliance and they brought together white, ranchers and indigenous. People to understand that indigenous rights actually fundamentally protect everyone, not only the environment but also workers rights, as well as those who Till and use the land, whether it's for agriculture or ranching, so that those the context thanks for that, because I've always loved that speech, but as an died, Acta seldom spend any time doing a thing, so radicalism researching the things that shaping and changing my perception just look at it and that's that That's a thing I know now is wonderful tat context. Em. Could there be a more rat

Call an optimistic alliance than a cowboy, an indian alliance at this time of social fracturing and fragmentation is time where conflict is found in almost every area of culture. Lots of things occur to me when you- were talking, then nyc and here a few of them struck by them. The thing you said about how that you know you die came indians as a result of this relationship to the landing grid, custodians hopes proprietor. Have you see all The land about reminded me, famous baldwin times baldwin idea about the creation of the class, a classification of negro in order in assent, sir solve cast, the shadow off of many of the prejudicial tropes apes over centralization, animalism laziness, and also to justify the brutalization of course, of of Siberia

not seen that connection before, but couldn't thanks not explained to me before a month. Kinda Andrews's, sociologists, british black sociologist, whose he said that the reason that you can't have restitution and reparation term. We had to say two former slave nations and put him away. This applies to you is their indigenous inhabitants of the americas. You, because in reparations is the dismantling of the deceased. You can't maintain those systems post reparation and I feel like us over. Similar thing is being hinted at here: nick when you say that the kind of amendments that would be required to a halt- climate change, would mean system the disruption of the interests of the powerful asked.

faintly reorganise society. That's, why can never happen? So what do you think about this or the utilization by they call it the political left of self and sam corporations of green washing and like climate changes everywhere, not lie something that people are. They not talk about that anymore enemies, not like that is discussed base, not discussed, really is it in terms of capitalism. So how do you work for all that and I mean that's it. That's really good question and what you re, hinting at is the united states has come about by did it right. These systems didn't come about by accident and it wasn't just like somebody threw a bunch of ingredients in a bag and like shook it up and then outcomes. You know history, and there is a careful. You know it's like baking, a cake. There is careful ingredients that were put into this, and so we back into it, and one thing that I think you know that your friend that you mention who was talking about if, if reparations

actually implemented. You know it would Do these systems- and I like to put it in terms of like you, can't and bake you know that cake once its baked is baked in, but it doesn't mean that alternatives can't exists or don't exist right, and I would say in to get a domino: can a wine my way to answer this question, because I think it's important to point this out. We should romanticize indigenous people. You know, because we are What we are shaped by history? You know there are indigenous enough to give you an example. At the time you know before dep holland, she's. You know she was just appointed to a cabinet level position in binds administration she's an indigenous women from actually from new mexico, where I am speaking to you from

A very progressive and in many respects, but you know she was. She was one of six congress people, indigenous congress, people in the united states and of you know of the three of the six three of them were hard core trump supporters right so as not to say that, Digital people are always aligning with progressive. You know I use or that identity is somehow some kind of marker of of good politics are good. Good relations. It's not that, like the system produces a know, kind of a desperate kind of class structure and indigenous people are immune from that. So I just want to point that out right away, but in general the experience of indigenous people in this nation is such that we are at the bottom, rungs of all socio economic factors, whether its police, violence, incarceration poverty,

You know the list goes on and on, but what makes you know sort of our colonization in our subjugation particular unique, particularly unique in a context, united states is that our cultures and our social systems and our values developed around him a material reality of you know this of this law, we learn how to live. It live on it. We learned how to cultivate it. Eighty percent of indigenous cultures- in the western hemisphere were agricultural, and so it begins to like you know, you know raise questions in your mind when you think of my people lucky to people you think of people. you're in a riding bareback you'd, help bear chested giving buffaloes like living free very masculine in a macho. But we don't think of us as like. Cultivators is people who actually grew corn, who had large. You know a few of course, who are very sedentary in many ways

a lot of stereotypes, because how people engage no, indigenous peoples, not through reading books, is often through television right, the cobbling indians trope. So that makes it that's why we are sports mascots still to this day in many places. This is why people can play indian in dress up like indian, because that dehumanization process as you know, is it works. It were two ways one to eliminate indigenous people, because, if we're just playthings you know the killing and our elimination is. Is you know much easier? It makes the access in the granting of history is our bodies much much more easier. and our lands as well, and so this the very complicated you know where we're our primary form of racialization, or how people notices by thinking that we don't exist anymore. So, that's one hand like in so there's this there's this tendency to either romance

the size or too. You know completely disappear without fully understanding. You know the other ass backed up. It is that we developed a culture that was not capitalists that wasn't based on exploitation, that didn't you know things such as you know, slavery, And- and you know I mean it's not to say that there was a prehistoric slavery. I am sure there was, but those Weren'T- the foundation. Of society was based on crime version. It was based on the modification of nature that something that was fundamentally introduced. They took away. way of life through our material culture and living with the land he noticed by dispossessed seeing, but we still have. We still retain that knowledge and those cultural practices this day in that reverence for the land itself and think a bit as a relative ripe for me as a local, the person is a lucky man. By also goal in life is to be a good relish and to live incorrect relations. Both the human and non human world

and where that gets us into the second part of your questions, and I apologize for a model melodic monologue being, but sometimes they have the back bill. Some of that information to do so that we are on the same page and we can get to the place that we need to and get to those important conversations so tat kind of get to the you know that facts of the matter you know in two thousand eight there is a global financial. This is in the united states. There is also what we now know as the fraction revolution and technology. I was kind of being implemented It was a way is hydraulic, factoring in his way to get at previously inaccessible or expensive forms of oil and gas in the earth's crust, as these two things coincided. Global financial collapse, as well as well as a friend revolution under obama's administration. He implemented. You know called all of the above energy policy or american into or

energy independence and this meant increased domestic oil production so that the united states could wean itself off of you foreign. especially like in places like you know, IRAN or or venezuela, and begin implementing, our sanctions against those countries as a result, this is something that we talk about. As indigenous people, we understand geopolitics, we understand why they're coming after our land and why they're coming after our resources- and so this began the fraction revolution and domestic energy pretty domestic oil and gas production in the united states under a bomb increased. Eighty, eight percent right, and you also have the creation of the tar sands in in Alberta, canada, which has created, dead zone larger than the state afford. I dont know if that means anything's. The thing to your listeners, but it's a. He is a huge area of of land that has been completely disk, they built walls around it to two. Essentially, extractive is very dirty oil, and

the canadian government in also it has a lot of these projects. A lot of these canadian corporations. Canada is often seen, as you know, the nice alternative to the united aids, but canada's also home to sixty percent of the world's mining corporations that plunder the rest of it planet. You know, including by my homelands where I am from, and so they you know they they put through pipelines such as the key. So excel pipeline in so this is where the fight against the pipelines erupts. This is where that occur, access pipeline really, you know really kind of galvanizes indigenous people, is actually the case in exile pipeline for us. But after we we sort of one that use in exile pipeline fight, then we switch to the Dakota access pipeline fight and we can talk about that later, but the some of that was that under obama that that pipeline, you know was finished and then sort of finalized under trump, and we often a tribute allow the kind of bad energy

policy and the fossil fuels the expansion fossil a very aggressive expansion of the fossil fuel economy. To somebody like trump, but in fact a lot of those policies happened under the obama administration, so. for us. You know we're in this kind of trap of like democrats and republicans wins when basic it's kind of the same wing of the other. You know the same kind of bird, and so it's a little difficult, even though we prefer, you know too, have to be nowadays, less or more kindly consumer goods then the more aggressive form of of trump, whereas trump represented something that very you knows. It was a naked form of colonialism. That was like very easy to grasp. You know he valorize genocide, there's like Andrew jackson end, no John wayne and things like that. So now, There was a little bit easier for us, but now now that we have Biden, you know a kind of return of obama's policy, we're seeing- and I'm gonna bring this back to the car

and you were talking about a green transition. What we're seeing and under the abiding administration as another kind of energy boom and another kind of energy rush. And you know, happened, also under and also begun under obama, and was very much aggressively expanded in unending trump but bite in with his two trillion dollar green transition plan. You know he commits to transitioning the entire federal fleet, all the cars, the federal government owns into electric vehicles That requires an immense amount of metal such as copper, right and things such as Where are these things in a come from right now? China is like the number one producer of of copper, lithium and think the thing with copper and white so important is that you can't they become Copper, that's needed in renewable technologies like electric vehicles, wind turbines, solar panels has to be very pure

the mind and in it has to be mined, it can't be recycled, so it has to come from somewhere right and so but you know, biting gave this kind of speech during his campaign it wasn't a public speech, but he gave a speech to one largest mining associations in the united states, basically saying where, The dawn of a new era of mining, and just like you know, the obama administration wanted to increase domestic oil production to wean ourselves off of a foreign imports. We as the united states want to also increase our production and extraction of what we what we are calling strategic minerals- and that includes lithium right- that includes a cow her, and so indeed, under the obama administration. There was this writer to the the national defense reauthorization act and I'm sorry if these like this,

it boring because it kind of gets into the weeds a little bit about this stuff. But there was the writer to this. The national defense reauthorization act back in two thousand and twelve or two thousand and three. I can't remember in in arizona congressmen, our senator named John Mccain added it basically to two sacrificer to designate an area of national forest or an area controlled by the m. A national forest in arizona which is also an apache sacred site to be opened up for mining, copper, mining by a company called rio tinto. And the idea was that if this mine went forward, it will produce the one fifth of the united states need for copper, anticipating This green transition, anticipating this green renewable revolution, right but still still dedicate

to the kind of extraction mentality in the colonial mentality that we're going to sacrifice. It would be like I don't know. What's the big churchmen in england since pose cathedral mania, westminster abbe, so imagine if An australian mining company came in and decide said, hey, you know, there's a big huge, copper reserve underneath this cathedral and we're gonna have the blow you know a hole in it. That's gonna, go down at least are almost too are one, and a half miles are over kilometer down into the worthen we're going to have to destroy the entire. You know a land around it and we Can'T- happen safe can compensate for it, we're just gonna. Do it right? Imagine pissed off people would be. I mean they're there'd be like you know, I'm sure there'd be riots in the streets or something like that. People would be very upset because your attacking in an air that's considered it a sacred say, a church. You know the place of reverence, I'm not I'm not christian, but

it's what I imagine christians do. I think they go there and they you know they pray to god by us right. Yes, that's right, you got it, Don't you ride roughshod over my culture? That's my say great heritage they eat, like water, is right. Yeah. We have offers yeah. we got. Some war in there make. It seem particularly offensive that that would be somehow framed is a green new deal if part of the green new deal is the blow site craves sites of the indigenous people of the land. I mean it listening t describe and explain that nick is difficult to feel optimistic about the democratic party by in or much of the rhetoric around climate change, climate concern and also my add to that the kind of Jeff.

You're general cultural compensations, the offered in the realm of diverse a short: There was any respect at all the the you, like you, know, respect as long as the respect doesn't effect. Our economic interests gestures. Those gestures down in paid the ability of powerful people tippit continue to pursue their interest. For me, like this, makes like when it comes down to at least donald trump, as you said naked, you know you dealing with you know. You're dealing with this is what capitalism is this. Your capitalism looks like, and it makes me feel that much of the left's so com all options and hysteria around tromp was an inability to fight up to the reality of the political and economic systems that will have been at work. No, you tell me your historian in your car referring to a couple of centuries, made me feel like a like I've heard someone people romanticize about the union quite recently about the constitution is a beautiful document and, like I would

Well, you never when they say men. What did I mean? You know who which man etc? These is not necessarily novel arguments, but I certainly arguments under which you can necessarily continued to underwrite the source of american exceptionalism or presumed rectitude. In reckon social politics Where does it leave usa, indigenous man and as a historian when, regarding legs of the policy but in the rhetoric of Biden and this over nude optimism, and let that you know cultural level, how? How do you see? That's too serious of insidious deceptive point, where do you put your political optimism? Yeah, no minutes. I think you hit the nail on the head so to speak. With that assessment, I think there is more of a cynicism in this. This is you know, there's there's an attack by the right. You know, there's an attack by the socially conservative,

to say, oh identity, politics, like you, know this representational. is a real and in others there is a deep cynicism to that. You know, but I would also say there's a cynicism from liberals as well to say that once we put a brown face, and something that that's ok, you know like you know. What are we gonna do paint Rushmore like brown like legacy is that is that the goal that doesn't make the land stolen or less the phased edges chain. It's just a plastic surgery right, that's all that's happening, and I think that in Mind is much more cynical and much more insidious on the part of you know not just in the democratic part, yes, but also you know, I would say that the Republicans play the same game. You know with their representational politics and the deployment of identity politics, because even the fat I mean you brought up the constitution and I think that's incredible important like that. If we want to talk about identity politics, let's talk about the founding of this country on the eye, here that a as a pint,

sean owning or a land owning class is somehow aggrieved right because, as the foundation, if you read the declaration of independence, I think those twenty twenty two twenty three grievances. I care, member. I should know this is a historian, but whatever who cares and that one of the final grievances is talking about in the declaration of independence. You can go. Look it up online as it says, and you know it's all these- you know the king did this. The king of england did this, and this and this, and he incited domestic rebellions amongst us and those domestic rebellions. What he was talking about: we're safe revolts and then also he has encouraged. You know a kind of I would the merciless indian savages, oh thomas jefferson, wrote this. The merciless indian savages on our western frontier, whose, like only known rule of warfare, is to kill everybody right. It talk about projection right, so

immediately and that that founding document there was was it was almost as if they were laying out. You know everything that the protesters on january sixth, who stormed the capital were invoking, they were invoking an aggrieved sense of of of you know of of white victimhood, and you know it's not its there's this kind of idea that somehow that these people are like the working man, you know the everyday you no kind of people who risk run of the mill they get frustrated with the political elite. In about forty percent of the who arrested as capital rioters were business. Or held white collar jobs right in and if we think about something like the so called american revolution. What was rebel cautionary about the american revolution? There was no, you know, reorganization of society, for social

solidarity amongst black people, months, indigenous people amongst white people. No, it was it was there a counter revolution of property and many sense to maintain these sort of levels of of inequality even amongst white people themselves rate whitenesses affection. It's it's a way to collapse, class differences and to say that You know the checker at walmart or at the convenience store, has something in common with donald trump and sick. They have nothing in common. You know just by the mere fact of their skin color, that's it other than that they have completely different class interested. Not look so, I would say I am I'm optimistic in this moment because I think more and more, like even you know here in the states, I'm I'm sure you've been following it over there, but there's ben into the conviction of Derek Chauvin who killed George floyd on all three counts, a murder and it's not to say that that's the solution of the verdict of committee of of you know charging or

evicting a cop with murder of a black man is not the solution to the problem, but last year that probably would not have happened two years ago. That probably would not have happened right. And so in many senses. Black lives matter has raised the consciousness of people in this country, I don't see it necessarily reflected in the politically in on the political elite, but none the less there's. The transformations are deep and long life, thing- and this is in I I was politicized at the indian bay, of iraq back in two thousand three, no into my first anti war protest are still in high school. and that politicized me, but the kind of politics that people and the movements of air espousing and the vision that they have, and the kind of transformational power that have I didn't. I didn't see that as a young person, and so I would see em

much more hopeful. It doesn't dislike, rely on the youth. You know like to change the world. Like you know, people our age have to also be be a part of that process, but I would say, even though, with the cynical nature, representational politics, the cynical nature of jerry politics, send cynical name, group identity, politics, the cynical nature of supremacy, despite all that I'm incredibly optimistic that lovely you mentioned earlier, the kind of sacred relationship between indigenous people, war, as demonstrated in that speech there that we we touched upon this risa sacrificing cookies as you indicated, nor as a kind of miss this off, the branch of savagery and ignorance, by a kind of rational appreciation of the symbiosis between me,

at the end of the planet and that the planet, the plan itself. when I lay he say this stuff man about like so let the capitol hill thing. That's a four percent over miss o connor this owners an inch of white collar roles and buts, but simultaneously the vague of white nested to mask echoed the economic inequality that is central to the kind of politics that we. In view I spoke have in amerika. I feel that that day it's a great deal to learn from the historical, obviously historical period that you like that. You know that that Europe's of citing and enjoying from even with that kind of that alliance between us, so the cowboy indian alliance I ate like the fact is- is that we know, however, that another, whether that's apocryphal of sorry, if is inaccurate, or not whether or not trump,

I think this is certainly a sense that trump appealed to blue color americans a boost and an early is an intellectual ism that our economy think that the source of the Wye supremacy component of that is a kind of an unconscious and you pick us attribute as opposed to central and defining I e. The white supremacy is institutional and somewhat transcendent of of various political straw. So is present in the democratic and to be present in republicans, it's a sort of their anyway d feel would it have a mean, meaningful progress, meaningful alternative. Then it's a bit echo movement that acknowledges the sacredness of the law. Acknowledges the rights of various people naturally have earned descendants of slaves by us, brings somehow to the full from the interests and rights of Why and non why? Oh economically, undeserved commute

is brings together and isn't part of the problem with identity politics is, it allows figures like bide, enter, shot if the indigenous people, with a bizarre that mental copper mining, saint Paul thing that you talk to stir whilst doing as a kind of freedom, a friend, tab, non white communist, isn't something that needs to be counted and doesn't that counter position require alliances that go beyond and rice and end up in a class gaps are really I mean, I think one of you to go back to that time period in the black hills alliance. They defeated union car, they defeated. Some of the most powerful energy corporations, by uniting together, you know pride, I would say a class. not as a not as you know, distinct kind of categories. I mean, I think you know four p m this is it says, a lot when you have a cowboy, an indian alliance right, but there

were minors, gold, minors in like hills, and if you know anything about that region gold mining was key to the theft of our about her, where the reason why they took our territories to get access to gold so you had minor minors unions in the black hills, who were talking to indigenous people and said No, what indigenous rights actually protect us as as minors, because it's not like we have choice like nobody like wakes up when they d like yeah, I want. I know I went to work in the fossil fuel industry. I want to contribute to climate change. these are real, like economic choices of for survival, that of people are often have to make rate, and we can't fault them for doing so. So if the only alternative for a job is to work in the oil fields, be a prison guard, you know like you, can't you can't fault poor people for for making those decisions are making survival.

Genes, but if they begin to understand like as these minors did, that their safety, their work in other their workplace safety is concerned upon living in a healthy environment and their using things such as Cynic in mercer mercury to you, no gold, mine They realise that like actually, this isn't just about our protection as workers, but the only reason why they got to that point too, to acknowledge treaty rights. Indigenous rights is fundamental to their rights, as workers was because they formed a union right. Did they formed a union because they were? You know there are organizing against capital there, organizing against the bosses, and I that's, you know we have to understand that these things you know I can. I can here hear you can have this conversation. I don't know who's gonna. You, know who's listening. You know at their job place right now and being like. Oh I'm convinced you know it. This happens through struggle like it happens through education right and I would say

that the majority of americans, whether they hold backwards views or not, if they understood the real history of this country and this land, that they would have a much different opinion, because you know, like you, said, in a white supremacy in this kind of transcendent trans historical phenomenon. It happened, it didn't happen by accident rate. It unfolded throughout. History, looks different throughout you know, different times and places it's not the same, its historical, contingent it socially produce and it can be socially defeated as well. So I would say yes, there has to be you know, and some kind of you, no class alike, I would say, has to be more so based on class. Then this the idea that we can organise an identity and thinking about these minors, pow actually found out about these minors was because I was doing work with the nurses union out in california

and one of the old kind of like union bosses. You, like you, know, he's like I used, you know he's like. I knew some lakota people and I was like oh yeah, who did you know where a small nation? So we we its races to say that you know all native people know each other, but the reality, as we all know it is I knew this this person in this and I like what the heck in and it turned out that he was one of those minors, those gold minors who involved in adopting ended and indigenous rights framework. As a worker's rights framework, in the mines- and I was like this is incredible- you know so is shows what is possible right, and I think this It's to another aspect when you, when we talk about things such as water, is sacred. We have to think about. you know the term water protector and where that came from that came

standing rock and that came from indigenous the standing rock, taking a stand against the dakota access pipeline and saying not only is this water sacred for us is indigenous people, but Also sacred for being the eight million people who rely on this referred for drinking water, and so Anyone would walk through those camp. The protest camp gates, the automatic became aware of it not because they are indigenous. Many of them were white. Many of them were black, many of them. You know where, from all different kinds of backgrounds, and so it was a universal like the universal kind of label, it didn't just apply to indigenous peoples on indigenous values, but it showed that struggles are some kind of like you know tack on issue there, one can be a water protector and that this is something that should be ingrained in our society. This is something that should be valued and if we think about water, protect, there's land offenders throughout history, we think about the

in its people and the amazon rainforest who are protecting the the very such in the very lungs that we all need to survive their being criminalize for their jobs. Right, that's their job right. That's their job is to protect that environment. They get paid for it right, but they get criminalized for it, and we can think about you know this is necessary for life on this planet to continue. But yet it's a device in form of labour and work. Much like you know, we think of the kind of division of gender and gendered labour, such as caretaking child rearing and all those things is as falling on women and they don't get paid for that. But it's necessary for the reproduction of life right. So this is a real of values and how we understand work. how we understand you know our relationship to the natural environment, because it's not just something that like is our problem as indigenous people, its everybody's one everybody has an investment to protect clean water, clean land and also

you know they have as on rain forest. Like also, I want the next generation to breathe. You know a cleaner into experience, clean drinking water. This, yes, Your intention will require well as the new alliance is that we ve touched upon I knew miss ass. I feel main, necessarily need to be separate it from. No make imperatives. I feel there is often a mistake to try to persuade people on the basis you tell a because I feel that you till it is such a significant of the problem like if you don't look after this war and you're not gonna have any will recognise that that that's how father that's hopes of a functional wives and recruit in activism and making people appreciate that separation is-

temporary and illusory, and there is itself is the separation. Is our molly and the written by a kind of oneness, and that's not necessarily a mystical idea, but practical one based on observable system such as respiration that require an external component for the union, digestion? All of all of these in our individual systems? Haven't externalize component, I wonder how without resorting to economics and new mythology might be uncovered two unit. I people you know because, as you said, it's gonna be a struggle and that struggles gonna require motivation, and I feel that this issue of a key part of the subjugation of people, regardless of we know race, but for the protect. the salient to class. Is this kind of We re told that modern life takes the hypnosis of media propaganda, the negative effects of bad diet, the lowering her of horizons. They,

creasy lease it's role that we even play in our own life: the lack of agency, the lack of democracy. What little I know about, one of the nation's that that you, that you are no longer speaking about and to a degree on behalf of it, it sounded like there was over an inherent democracy, of democracy and in here in the sense of responsibility a but when not, it was not just la robe of a call that traveled through time the understood the eaten that that you couldn't. the individual at the apex of all experience, while the individual needed to be honored, but also this role of responsibility of others. Some of these ideas- I don't know how they scale. Perhaps that's one of the problems. Perhaps they don't need to scale and couldn't scale I certainly feel these important information in their eyes. A historian, I wonder- If I say, if so, for the mythology, if their nations that are important and significant, see, if there's anything and tell us about that, and

whether or not they can be reboot aid and and savannah joist, sir, presumably in the way that they operate for people that belong to those groups. Yet I mean it's a good question. It's something you know that I said earlier and I could expand a little bit on it. India. You know in our in our language we we, you know, we talk about we'll talk, ea, which means to to be in relations or to be a good relative and that's the aspiration of a lakota person. I don't think, that's a universe. I don't know if that's the universe, aspiration for all indigenous people, I don't wanna, you know like generalise, because we are distinct. There are over interest country alone. There are over five hundred and seventy different nations with different histories, different value systems, different languages, etc. But according

do you know that philosophy of living in good relation- that's something you know we think about you know throughout throughout our history and the first sort of profit that we have in in lakota. History is a desai which actually means white, buffalo, calf woman. It was actually a woman. Brought us back into correct relations with the non human world in the animal world because in our frankly ridge is being shit heads at the time, we were being good. Relatives and you know these animals and you know these plants were producing and in sustaining our lives, and so this person came and brought us back into correct. relations in some. You know somebody attributed to somebody like a figure like Jesus. I don't know I don't think everything has to be compared to christianity. I don't really care to make that comparison, because out of the renault dejesus like bring like people back into relations with animals was that it was that he

I'm asking you as a x, I feel like gosh, my understanding of the Christ metaphor and the function of the christ figure is to act. Lies divinity a within the human that, god is not abstracts. God is personal that god needn't be mediate, god is fell, the god PA Well, you are, god, got within a the way. My in the fava are one light that the light consciousness, analogous to god that we are living experience of god and as such, or so racial or conflict is few all and that we should leave in numb unit, vastness of mythic christ and much of the gospel Christ. There obviously lots of analyses of a historical christ. I suggest these more in line with an apocalyptic preacher that were common in nice.

Co era that we're sort of in a sense talking largely about end times and how judgment was upon us and we needed to sort of wake up, but for the the crisis has prevailed and therefore one my shoe, the one has been most culturally effective. Is this of the idea of Christ as bodied, giving it a as both canal a and the sublime combined. and the possibility that that is something that is accessible to all of us simultaneously divine and human? The off Fleshly design can somehow be converge. Aid into divine service. I think that is, I would say you know, I'm not goin such culturally sensitive position as you, but I would say that that is like an arc types. idea that could recur pan culturally. Let's I guess it s very appealing, four billion christians com be wrong? Make unless you know the vatican colonization

we didn't. I guess we didn't kill our our our prophet so yeah, so it's yeah especially. I mean that's, that's a very good description, because I think in many ways that could be I too somebody like day saw where the white buffalo catwoman very much brought us I would say more so less about the kind of the divine of the of the person themselves, but the divinity of all relations. that, and so she brought us back into crack relations and we had recorded history, most people that we are illiterate and obedient a writing system, but we had a recorded history. We kept her. You know our own history and in the earth one of the earliest kind of pictographs that we created it, of her arrival in her bringing in making us Lakota look what they actually means. Its derivatives of the word friend in our language means Hola clause, not just like friend. You know it's not like. like me, you know how you feel

Casually actually mean something very, very deep that you have like almost a relationship with somebody that transcends just being like either related to them or acquaintances with them like gaining. You would give your life for that right and so la la quota lakota means I big big friends. Are you know, big alliance, so our name are very name is about making alliances, making relations with people. and so she made what we would consider the first covenant or the first treaty, because woe Lakota actually later became our word for treaty. It's though, lot of these, you know of these words they change over time re and soon we may treaties with the united states. Government are most famous and most powerful treaty was eighteen, sixty eight fort laramie treaty, and it was one of the only treaties that actually entails. a section for non human relations. It literally set aside an entire

five. Five million acre, don't know what that translates into hector's apologize for the big at we do you guys do idea Yes, I can always method of deal use like the english system of like land about when people say heck tears and acres I have to convey into football pitch is still a lot of footballs battlefields, and yet so that there is a lot of these citizens, this entire territory, that was set aside because we understood our treaty Our agreement, or a covenant with the united states had to include non human relations for us to be Lakota people we, to set aside a hunting territory for our buffalo nations, because we call ourselves daily out day, which means buffalo. Nation as well, and so it is very unique- and you know the treaty workers from the. U s? Side there are the only met with them military generals.

and they are always always men? They would never with our women. Even though the women were considered, you know we are matriarchal society, they were considered leaders, and so this act of treaty making entering into a relation with the with the colonizing nation. It's a usurped in some ways, are attempted to usurp the political authority of indigenous women. But also created this agreement on that set aside a thirty five million acre territory for the buffalo nation specifically, and so what what these military minded in a military men did was this they said. Well, if the buffaloes don't if the buffalo doesn't exist anymore,. Then this territorial exist anymore. So what did they start doing this It exterminating the buffalo that the? U s military, did this most. Frontier army posts never actually

gauged. Indigenous nations in ever actually fought them, but they are simply posted out on the frontier tissue and kill and exterminate the book. Nations, because the extermination of a buffalo meant literally true. Late into the acquisition of territory, so this is so This is how like imbricated, these kind of. I acknowledge this. These are, and also thinking about, The relationship that we have with the colonizing nation state, like the united states, that are you're standing, because when you interpret treaties from both sides. Not one sinner gets. You know a monopoly of interpretation, both sides get interpreted and so our side is that we defend our treaty territory to also defended on human relations, which includes our buffalo nations right and so

When I was writing about when I was ready to go back to that bill gates piece. This is something that has always stuck out in my mind. Is that there's you know? There's you know the the largest buffalo herd is privately owned by somebody like ted dinner and we as indigenous people, my nation, we have our own buffalo heard. We have you know so it's it's part of our are fundamental irrigation as indigenous nations to protect the nonhuman world, because its literally part of that original covenant that was made by day saw we re the white buffalo catwoman, We walked forward with that in mind that we understand you know that we relations with the non human world, as well, not say in a modern application, This modern adoration of this comes from a country like Bolivia, that you know draft or that came together and drafted the people's accords and twenty ten And that's where that the rights of nature discourse, the rights of nature movement actually arose to say that but mama

for the mother earth has rights that should be codified and should be protected and can be a plaintive against states or corporations. If harmed, and is this rights of nature, movement has expanded to places like out day aura or Zealand to give a river person hood right or in here in the united states of a western or eastern and western wash north eastern washington. Now western washington there's a river in western washington that was also accorded those kinds of rights of of person had to say that they are I have the same rights as a human being. I don't know if that's kind of like that one to one equation is, is really apt, but the kind of intent behind it shows that the you know the that rivers, mountains, forests

Do you have some kind of sentient beings do have some kind of right to exist right, not just to exist for their own sake, but also to exist. to understand our relation. How do we live in good relation to to water to two plants and animals. its fascinating, that in secular society, where religion has not only been extracted from government by has perhaps been extracted altogether from the order of power that it is necessary to grant person hood too river or trees in order to re sat her lies it because there is no troll notion of water to be sacred, oven or suppose it could be like a person s of such a kind of her red, teeth way of looking at the sacred our nature alike.

I say nah about the good relative and this of potency of luck. You know that you would give up your life. I ii, that that connection. That relationship is more important than so of personal sovereignty or personhood, and it reminds me of something the carlo rovelli, the quantum physicists said when we are on here and I'm sure he said it elsewhere too. In fact, I think he's written a book about it, lie where he said that the most fundamental level of the material world in this particular realm, nothing can be said to exist at all, except in relationship to other means of sub. Molecular factors like their existence is dependent on relationship exists, since is relational. I feel that these risks this is of real sack realising the world and recognising that there is a sort of divinity and the weather we relate to one another. The way that we relate to the planet is a vital tool in providing an alternative, narrow, evil myth to the

Let's face it, the fundamentalist ideology upon which the sun never sets of global capitalism, the imperatives of which can not be challenged easily I am always present just just smiles green. it deals in. Instead of an age that necessarily the change that is required will impede the interests of the powerful too. We might as well cut to the chase and start saying its energy giants. Its tech come These is billion as like bill gates, is thereby states in another state power itself that ultimately gonna have to be challenged, and I Rising of this kind is gonna required. new alliances, new alliances that see how advantages the powerful to have us of squabbling as Currently are

around sir, and very particular bespoke sometimes syntactic issues sooner is we're being. die made by our own kind of protocols, Are these enormous battles to be undertaken gather ruling classes united, and we are, I mean, I think you you hurt, like the ruling class in the united states, is united through the this data self right I mean we just saw one of the most lucrative contracts go to elon musk. First space exploration, we're you know next, I were recording the ceta, no it's when this is published, but tomorrow is earth day and the The united states has a history Gleason's at least two thousand nine the united nations has recognise their rights of mother earth day that was answered by the government of bolivia to second of have, like a

Global south view of of environmental justice are on climate change. and you know, since the coup, the coup government withdrew bolivia from that that position on earth day and now the united states has, you know under under Biden's kind of one one. Language has reasserted leadership in energy and climate change in climate mitigation, and so he's inviting you know it's like literally just like. I think it's just like it's like a expo to sell like ilan mosques. You know tesla cars and things like that? Like that's, that's the vision, that's the kind of state level leadership that the united states is providing doesn't mean like that. We there are a lack of alternatives. There are alternatives, right netteke which are pointing out. Is that, like we have to Why didn't you know this? We could have conversations about it, but it really has to happen on a on a grassroots level. You know people or I around you, know certain issues, but we have to fight.

Unity as a class of people who die, who are the have nots, the humble people of the planet we have to have. We had to find some kind of common ground in unity to fight back, because otherwise, what's going to happen as we're gonna get Yeah? We? Maybe we do transition away from fossil fuels, maybe that happens and that eight you know you, and I would agree that that's a good thing, but the level of exploitation and inequality would still exist right and we can't let that happen or fall back on the people who are most affected, and I think this is where you know, I think, one of the biggest steps we can take a practical steps that we can take us begin to tax

The rich, the rich have an outsize carbon tax or carbon footprint, so it needs to be taxed. We need to raise taxes on them. That's the first. You know that's the first practical step that we can take, because what happens with people like bill gates, what happens with people like Jeff Bezos is to avoid taxes. sequester that money into their foundations where they still have can roll over that money right. It's not a public good. It's it's a practice, develop its still private and they still have control over how that money is being distributed and how that social wealth is being distributed, and we have do. I think changer mentality, that you know that social wealth that workers that farmers, that you know everyday people produce, belongs to them and that they should have a larger cut of that pie. You know those are just beginning steps like, I obviously there's more radical things that need to happen, but I think advocating for these things at you know at

small scale achievable wins builds. The confidence builds the cycle, the psychology of of everyday people, that you can win I'll, be honest. Like I haven't been an academic. I come from a poor ass background. I grew up in a fucking trailer. You know, like I grew up around white, kids, who I didn't know where racist until we got older until I understood, like you know as I quite and acquire you calling me this like what, like, I don't even understand, like grew up in the slick we literally grew up in the same filth together like what like what was, divided us. You know, and I worked as a fine food worker. I've been in I've, been in fast food longer than I have been in the academy I had made more pizzas, then publish books. He thought of that kind of thing. it's I understand. I understand that bosses suck understand that, what you have to do to survive, and that we should, we should organise as a class in across across differences right, that we have to find common.

These is differences are important. You can't escape race because the system is racist right, but we have to organize and understand that you know right. his white supremacy, isn't just about content. when people like me, or you know black folks or whoever it's actually about controlling white folks, first and foremost, and and so there is and there's a vested interest in all of us to overcome this to move beyond, and I think you know as a kind of like a popular like everybody hates the rich like I don't like every everyone can agree on that that they have undeserved wealth and power so that something that we we can organise around netteke. Somebody like trump is very cunning in that regard, because he's like he plays himself off his aunt elitist. As you said in your anti intellectual he's like the common every guy day guy, you know just says what he feels like us on his mind and is an is considered. outsider or maverick and is not

glorify that, because he's a racist, massage indices awful do right, but is to say that he is tapping into something that I think a lot of people you know feel deep down inside is that, like gallic fuck, the rich, helpless like that's something that we can all agree on that this they play an outsized influence over our destinies over our dignity as human beings and it's unfair. Yes, that's beautifully explained, nick and listening to you. It makes me feel that there is a vast territory that is not occupied for a true populism, that operates beyond the exaggeration of difference and is about the promotion of unit a I like what you said: thereabout like her very easy thing,

step admission that the white people better be his victims. If I suppose, you think I'm going to organise a campaign around that for the world victims of white supremacy but I understand that what you're saying is that this system benefits from a pressing here numbers of men led by a obfuscate class politics of few skies there. class alliances that could exist between all different colored. For with the same interests obfuscate that obvious solution, and I no for how much longer we can expect dissipate or even hope for the parties of the left of center to have gradually adopt some of these ideas. I don't know why what why and we don't start to construct different vehicles for these ideas. Yeah, I mean it's it's a difficult task, I mean in the united states

we like again we can. We can harp on the republicans for just the overt kind of racism in the policies, whether its disenfranchises black voters, native voters, or mexican americans are brown people in general from voting or powering them. You know just politically. You know that, real thing. You can ignore that their they're engaging in this kind of racial ized warfare against the working class, but at the same time you know like just kind of bring it back home again the cynicism of just saying that we put you know a hispanic man in charge of homeland security, so that, now latinos? Who are victimizing latinos are you know? I may have gone over or whatever it is, and that's not progress. You know having a black cop is not progress to to police black people like that's, not progress, because in this country, in an edit I dunno much about uk

you know I'll, be honest. It's not something! I study very much. I know Stuart hall. I know some of the thinkers. You know a raymond williams, but you know like the the the The reality in this country is that policing, big the solution for everything. You know every sort of aspect of our lives. You know it's there's, always an increase in police budgets or police. You know policing itself and also you know, there's a corollary with the military. But instead of answering, you know what I consider what would be considered. I cannot for social needs such as housing such as health care. You know people who we are mentally, who have mental health issues who are on the streets who need healthcare and care itself. Instead, the solution becomes the police right and that's the hammer that the united states have. It only possesses one tool. For everything right, and so, if all you have is a hammer than everything looks like a nail

and that's where we see mass incarceration? That's where we see police violence. You know rampant police violence, so just to say that we are against this, like the kind of policing and you know, kind of the racial stay at the racist state itself. is to say that we actually stand for something that, like every you know, seeing is it is a fundamental human right, like your health care in these countries is offals, it's disgusting, The way that people are allowed to die. I mean we saw that with the covert nineteen pandemic. Why One in one hundred and twenty nine whole nation citizens lived on the reservation one and one hundred and twenty died from covered nineteen one and one hundred and twenty. You had elders away. You know who are language speakers who that's like literally watching libraries burn right, because a lot of that, knowledge is held through oral tradition,

and so we understand that it's not just like whether or not you can get aspirin. When you get an infection we end and this is a structural issue that, like navajo people, one out of We don't have running water or electricity who live on the nomination reservation right, one out of three in the in the richest country in the world. So why is the solution to all of our problem? it's more police? You know there's obviously there's this there's an abundance of wealth that is accumulated at the expense of the rest to the planet that you know we could. Actually we could. Salt like homelessness in this country could be solved tomorrow. Raising the issue of mass vaccinations could be solved as well. So these are things that are out of the realm of possibility and it doesn't just benefit. Indigenous people is not just our issue. We understand, I mean I hate this phrase, but a rising tide raises all boats kind of thing. I hate that phrase

it's using all kinds of weird ways, but in reality it really is. If, if you go into as organizers, you know somebody who's been involved in movements, you go where people are most harmed, you always go where most people are most harmed and you identified, you know what it is and oftentimes. It's not just me like saying, oh well, we need like this anti capitalist system. It's like you, can't e ideology. You can't eat, you know good thoughts, but you can eat food and you can be you can be want. You can be a ha. used in a war house rape. So those are things that I think as people in I consider myself on the left. You know maybe the far left I don't know the orientation,

but those are needs that we can all organize around and that not don't just benefit indigenous people. They they benefit everyone, and I think that has to be the basis of our of our politics. We can't just speak for an abstract. We are, we can't just speak for like a kind of like and it kind of subset, like of you know that there's this you know all indigenous people share the same kind of value system, but we can speak for peoples, materials and material needs, and that's something we can actually solve. You know that's not unsolvable, but the priorities of this country. The priorities of you know even the green. They did not just the green new deal, but the green energy transition is one in which the defence department, you know, and the intelligence community are seeing climate change as what they call a threat multiplier that two hundred fifty climate refugees might be coming to this country right. So we need to build better, better.

Walls we need to build better border security. We need to intensify, we need to increase our exclusion of the other and that's like how is that different from what trump has said. You know It is kind of rebranding sis I green, washing the military, its green, washing the police, it's it's green, washing fortress america, those aren't real alternatives and I think if everyday people understood that this too is like what was being done. Unquote. their behalf. I think we would have an we'd be having much different conversation, not in that not just in this country, but throughout the world view for thanking it lightly said uncle interesting quota things in one. Let me sad about lots of the place yourself reminds me of tax of corporate men, a letter that so played out a few times. I think, notably with gmo, is that they discover there's a fall in the car that would kill a certain number of people. Then they calculate will have to pay out this much law suits and recalling the vehicle because this much,

Let him go here, they make an economic decision and is it easy? Outer levies makes more economic sense to create a police force to oppress the liquid expression of suffering than to deal with and address the suffering. again taken with this is as something of with little more of an esoteric point? I suppose. But what is that cause in that speech? That we discuss is, I think, I'm saying is named Russell made at the beginning of our conversation. He he talked explicitly about something. This talked about ends of classical philosophy, known socratic, philosophy, about the power of oral communication, verses, written cook could a communication that this is of a different power. You know anymore species he says at the beginning, I'm saying this now you might be reading there, but I'm saying it in only goes into the significance of our new there. With that massive elders and staff, and then be living lubbers. What is that devotion?

that method of recording and is there something in it other than so? If you know cultural things around just It says like about picture grams earlier in the kind of techniques. If you notice there's something ideological at play, there yeah, I mean. So if we think about the treaties, if we go back to them we signed them, there were written in english right, they were written when we didn't have a written. I guess we did have written language at the time, but is we were functionally illiterate compared to in other colonizers. In that sense, so you can read the treaty So how is it that we knew the the rights or the things that were articulated in those treaties?

and it's because we had a well developed oral tradition right and so, like you know, I'm an academic so and I, when I submit something for publication, it gets peer review rates of the sends it out to people who are experts in my field, and they tell me like. Oh, you know, you've got this fuck. This fact wrong- or maybe you should cite this- that's like a textual kind of peer review process when we, when we think about in an egg and egg list of books that you should read, because there is. There is like a very profound oral history or oral tradition within our culture, and so like somebody like black out, speaks. I don't know if you ve ever heard of this book, but it's kind of like consider the north american native north american bible of indigenous people hate it hit. You know he's look like where we're very nationalistic, we in our very famous Russell me thy all these people like tat. We are treaties all these things

yeah, everyone wants to be us right over. The stereotypical indian is always lakota people, so we're we're used to it. You know and love us or hate that we say there's two kinds of people in the world: there's there's lakotas and there's people who want to be us. But anyway, so blacker speaks very famous vision and origin Three, and so when you read the public, the published version of this speech he's you know it comes off, is like a monologue like it's coming from one person But when you go back and look at John, I hurt who's. The poet who did these interviews he's actually in the company of five other

luck or two men and the reason why he's in the company of five other look at two men he says amateur. You know these people know this history as well in their here to correct me. If I get it wrong, and so it's like live peer review ray, it's psyche urge its life, it's live fact checking, and so, as oral history, we don't just remember as individuals at something when you tell a story like when I told the story about this we that you collectively tell that story, and if you get something wrong, somebody will correct you write. So it's a very well developed methodology of of remembering it's a well developed the a very well developed tool so much so that its actually been used in the court of law so like. How is it that who are functioning illiterate, can't read. You know the western alphabet can understand what You know, seventeen million acres is conceptually how the.

The hell did. They know that that was. You know that that was part of the treaty like we could recite word by word in our language in Lakota. The very you know verbatim the the entire treaty itself and it's because there was a functional kind of oral tradition that was very well developed and it continues. It continues to this day in one other kind of aspect of this, and this is what I really I really like as whereas you know in kind of written word that written word becomes truth. It becomes duchess, thus truth, and when we talk about oral tradition, many things can be true at once right. So, for example, our origin stories, as indigenous people are often you know. Where can people say like? Oh, you were just you know you you came from asia. You crossed the land bridge,

or whatever, or that, like you know, for us, it's like. We have an origin story where we came out of that came out of the mountains. The black hills are what we call his apa and but there's other origin stories that say that we actually migrated from the south or we migrated from the east coast, while in fact all those things are true because you are human or are humans, are our history, as a human group is very complicated and diverse another one is like back home famous medicine, man and there's a a debate is utterly debate, but I was told it certain family story about how he died right. I was told that he he began going to church any kind of like set aside. You know the traditional lakota ways and because he started going to church in dressing like a white man and eating white food that

a second die right, whereas might you know my cousin and his family? They say. While no, actually you know he, you know he he kind of like the something happened like he did. something in somebody didn't return the favor and you know it basically harmed him spiritually and physically and he died that way right. So We don't sit there and say ok now. My version of the truth is true, and it's like. Actually these both of these truths can be true right and in fact it gives a comp a more complex history of of who we are, or the history We think we know ray, and so it's not just about the kind of single master narrative. Its is to say that you know it's a world in which no many worlds fit as local people and that's a zapatista quote. That's what they say. I would say that's very much who we are it's not about like when missionaries came, we didn't like we're not seeking That's right! So conversion was always anathema to who we were.

So we would actually sittin here them out, be like okay. So this is your truth enough. You believe, the sky genie, you sacrificed for profit and you ate them. Ok, you know cool, I'm sorry if I best I think christianity very well complicated than that as a few versions, but there you know that they accepted that truth and I think they're we don't. The kind of western knowledge system doesn't allow for that. It doesn't allow for a multiple truths to exist or truth to exist in relationship to each other right. So that's that's kind of way the oil tradition. I think it is most valuable right in its it exists. Somewhat as a minimum mnemonic device in terms of the symbols that we use. You can tell a story. You see in

Imagine you might just think it's like wow, this kind of image of a cow, our image of a buffalo, but in fact there is this entire history that has to be told in in relation to that that image, so it's a complicated, complicated and and well developed methodology, I'm not in all historian. I don't I'm not a keeper of those particular stories. They are specifically are more so for the elder generation and so they're the ones who are the knowledge keepers in that sense of something that is almost like a status symbol to be a storyteller yeah. It's cool I like that of its giving, but if it is live, if it also can die, you know like in your earlier example that, like the, I feel like a russell needs a nice thing like it. So have I done if you said this or I imagined it later. It's sort light like once once make his written that sea dead is dead, is on the page and spoken word. River is relational to your point about good relatives earlier.

Like that component, that it requires the speak of it requires the listener services services over transitional and a relational pace of philosophy. Our struck, and two by the way that you said that the low cost of american corporatism in leisure society, co, opt native people imagery I e sports logos, etc. I was thinking that that dominates our culture with you. That is being your interior, historically or economically require as a kind of a relationship with the idea, the idea of the savage I e that all coach emerge from cultures? The up we know I gather a closer to the earth. Sedentary too are less a greater degree that usually have some kind of totemism too. Instead, she ate of the wise, potentially abstract, connect and between quarry

the banks, so you think the human that you, the human and light so light that, therefore, the best of the relationship between the dominant culture and the land being conquered or the people. The inhabitants of those lands is both one of river sure romanticism, in a kind of unconscious, ancestor, worship and knowing the all cultures must, at some point loss this knowledge and connection in order to make that transaction into materialist cultures where the land is deadened, materialised and also it requires I kind of do It- requires a dehumanization in terms that you've outlined you took before about the kind of paradox of between that sort of romanticizing. Of the of native people- oh my god, this off the one that a beauty, the mysteries and gorgeous and also we gonna, kill these people in order to get our hands on the loo and the bounding I reckon,

There is not just one tell us for human people that there are so many many branches by I've fills even when we, we're talking about you're, the sacred would the sacred buffalo. Why buffalo cough woman, the once more in their like? You bet, there's a sofa least mythic relation between Christ and the lamb referred to as the lamb, Polly produce the sacrificial nature of the relationship but also basis of a connection between of Mohammed goats. Pose like those in the relationships there between these sort of monotheistic cultures, pantheistic coaches are the both of you figures somehow have dominion over animals. Christ, the shepherd Mohammed, please be upon him. The shepherd I go ahead whereas in your country you described to me there, the embodiment of the animal, the embodiment of the total living as well TIM even there. There is not, then than

idea of asia utility a resource, but there is no separation. I was just struck by some of those things. Man, and once I am too well, you should listen. You should read or listen to John trudeau, and maybe and send you some of his stuff, because I would say, he's a doctor, you know his is there is a contemporary russell means and he's die of. I would say, the philosopher of the indigenous movement. You know when what are you like that? Standing rock, you know, when we got to an action or there'll be a police line, people would be listening to like john to dell and his like his poetry and his cause. He says exactly the same things that you are saying this idea of domination, that a monotheistic kind of christian god knows- is both patriarchal, but also is, is higher, could go and sent in saying that, like you know it's subsumed, not just women but also nature itself and it

it's kind of a domination over nature in its fundamentally in contradiction of If who we are. But I also say you know: there's you know like what you're getting at there is a romanticism, I think, for Europe to be europe, there has to be a primitive right. There has to be for there to be me, my identity. There has to be weakened in all europeans and modern, and you can only exist because they're on modern people, and that you know that puts in a kind of a scheme of civilization, as if you know the aspiration is the modern nation state or what western liberal democracy or secularism or whatever. It is an that's this that all human culture, as you know, that's the apotheosis in that's what we should all aspire to, or something that everything is related too, but in outside, unlike in my mind and where maybe it's a little bit of nationalism. On my part, as I'll cut, a person is like why don't we provincial eyes

europe. Why? Don't we provincial eyes? The united states, not only as a kind of A move in our minds, but due to think about you know in terms of alternatives that these are the only you know, results of Manatee like this, isn't there everyone aspire to like we have all been knocked if because of colonization and imperialism, we have all been knocked off our and our kind of social development and and and what we should be as nations people right now, and I would say that europe com, used itself before colonise the rest of the world. Oh I wouldn't you know there are still indigenous people in europe in us there's the sami of the nordic countries, but you know that kind, Colonization process was exported to the rest of the year

Now you get the mysteries in light of the basque country in northern spain, in the kelpie pool and ghouls, and all they saw these people that, before like gift tree failure, nationalism and that those they saw here long oppressed and law. Yet these oppressed narratives stories that have just been blue blanche- thou inter, into the horizon there. He had ass, pretty cool just long available to us you about. The you mentioned matriarchal society, how functionally, as some of these nations howard a matriarchal? How does that relate to power? What's relevant about it? So No in our society, we have matriarchal, it's not it's not. Oh, like it's, not the kind of opposite of patriarchy, you know it's, it's not that it's! You know, I would say the patriarchy in and hetero patriarchy.

is creating an intact ism poles of gender right and into the saying that there has to be some kind of antagonistic relationship so that we like lived in peace right. We had problems with me. You know we're everyday people we woke up We had existential crisis, you know it hit other we had war, we fought each other. There is corruption, all kinds of those, it grew very human right, but the way we organized our society was less and less based on these kind of like this gendered kind of a dominance are gendered relations of power. There are definitely divisions right in society, but it wasn't as pronounced as sort of what we encountered with white society right and so one of the ways that indigenous

means authority is targeted at the very beginning, is through the introduction of things such as like the sex trade. So when the they set up, you know trade forts in our area. That was the first thing that they did. It was me it. Not only did they sell our trade in women or excuse me and enough furs and skins, but they also big and trading in the flesh of human beings in terms of the indigenous women. It's that became away to cut of undermine or usurp indigenous women, already because they only sent european men to colonise innocent european women. Initially, ray, and so that became a waves of coral quote. Civilising us is introducing new leadership in serving those roles, and so today, as a result of the introduction of the the section, alongside of the the kind of their the penetration of capitalism

we have what are called the fault, the phenomenon of murdered, missing indigenous women wearing genus. Women disappear at higher rates in our killed murders the. Thirdly, the leading cause of death amongst indigenous women ray and deserve. This is a phenomenon that happens at a young age and one in three indigenous women are more likely to be raped in their lifetime. No, sir, this this is it. This is a phenomenon that completely attached to the decolonization process and cap who itself- and that was one of the things that they targeted right away- was those matriarchal structures. Is really famous, and it's not in our culture, but it's in the second fox culture. There's this testimony by black. What is his name lecoq? He? You know he was

they. They wanted him to cede all of this land and in the middle of the united states, in what is now known as the mid west- and he said you know we're not as men pillars of this we not we're not as men owners of the fields, if you have to speak to our women, and so they sent a women's council to meet with these generals to sign the treaty and then the generals were so insulted this it. How dare you send women in our presence like what an insult? since then they didn't sign a treaty, but this is you know this is a targeted usurpation of it. Business, women's authority and outside even in a rustle means even two down the leaders of the the red power movement. Although there recognize a bull. There are simply the job bones to use a janet macleod. She was a red power activists at the time of from the the washington of the north west of the united states and india

This very part for indigenous women. She said manner. The jawbone and women are the backbone, and so As I grew up in understood the red movement yeah numerous I you know, I knew of Russell means, but I more so knew of the red parliament of the grandmothers because they started organizing around the theft of children. So in nineteen sixty nine, you know at the kick off for the more kind of militant protests of the red power movement one in three native children had been taken from their families and adopted out to white families. One in three and this was an attack on the family structure right so to take the families also to take the land or to take the children is also to take the land and specifically targeting mothers themselves and in some instances, in some reservations by it seventies. One in three are exceedingly one. In four native women had been forcefully sterilised and they- a calculation,

of all the women that they could count that were forcefully stuff. Lies by the indian health services. There would Ben, born about one point: five million indigenous baby. right, so these are like genocidal. This isn't just some kind of like. Oh, we hate women for the hate, the sake of hating women. There is indeed a genocidal intent behind it right, and so my here those are my heroines and in our tradition, are people like you know, madonna, thunder huck, who was a women shoot, you know she helped found women of all red nations and talked about the politics of of reproduction and sexual health right as related to the land itself, because, in places like pine ridge and going back to brussels means speech right. It's a big guide. You brought because it's like this history is kind of like converging on that speech itself. It was actually digital women who found uranium tailings in their water were causing forced abortions, and so

these women, who were you were getting pregnant, were having you know, a forced abortions. They couldn't figure out why it was because there such high levels of uranium contamination in the water that they were. They were losing their children. This is a very kind of key issue. You know for us, it's not just doesn't sort of graft on what we know as western feminism neatly, because it has arises from its own tradition, right, it's about a tradition of annihilation. Eartha about history of annihilating indigenous women and killing them right to usurp their authority to get access to land I'm. So when we talk about matriarch e, that's really what we were we're talking about we're talking about that action in the annihilation of indigenous families and the knowledge keepers, the people who passed those things on and also gets down to simple biological reproduction right, so yeah,

I mean that's a kind of a complicated answer to your question, but that's why You know we have in a matriarch, such as you know, the donna breaking out who recently passed away and she was them jerk. She was the one who initiated I helped initiate or found out what became a sacred stone camp at standing, rock are people alike and faith, spotted eagle, who runs what what she calls a kodak joe, which are indigenous women societies to to kind of re a to bring back and do you know, ree assert indigenous women's authority within our within our nations so this is an ongoing process. You know it's not just something that happened and we're trying to fix. You know with a certain things, but it's an ongoing process and often doesn't get reflected to the outside world right

indigenous women when with when you just google Lakota, you know what comes out becomes. Pictures of men right and it's a misrepresentation of who we are ass. Look people as well. Thank you make. That was a wonderful conversation already, do it. I learned a lot from and it felt very diverse in terms of the topics and their various straw of topics that we color, but it also felt like it hung together very these fears, in south. Thank you for sharing your time is an educator a man and raise landed out there, and I value your time and your efforts well done gettin out of what I presume some sort of pizza parlor into I swear you, could re, engage with history and traditions and share himself so articulately thanks for having me well, that was

es tears. I hope you enjoy any fill of well, a well educated it about hope. You feel edified. You feel illuminated lit up, let me know, before that, though, on instagram tag me at Russell brand or tweet me at rusty rockies, with hashtag under the skin. If you've not listen to my book revelation yet an audible, inaudible, original gate and up if you're, not if I subscribed to the side channel where a lead meditations get that too, and if you haven't listened to above the noise, my meditation, which you can listen to for free, because it's on this platform have it tight. Then you'll appreciate this even more. Remember sign up to the commune, am Russell brand dot com to get exclusive mailing list content, especially information about my tour in the meantime enjoyed. This conversation have a listen to graham hancock or the icann. What shoes? Those ones are great lakes, history, yeah and nick and his love of history, dick the see a knows, a lot about different cultures and heather treatment.

Just before I knew how you're my worry is that now would you choose and from the cost is no records. Why politics? poetic righteousness, environments, someone else about I'll go on now. What's the point, poison, proteome, manic, romantic, awesome fifteen, where europe Okay, now go gentleman's and keep looking at my youtube channels daily for some great videos, but to have bitcoin on there. In fact, we called bitcoin guests coming up soon, so I'll be exciting. he's here soon soon. I do either goodbye some yet squad. A better kids have been broken and any room left. Never change. In hungry, yeah yeah same thing well, go from

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