Hello and welcome to under the skin from luminary this week I spoke with professor kahin de andres. Kaindi is an academic activist and author, the professor of black studies at Birmingham city university, the director of the center for critical social research, founder of the organization of black unity and co, chair of the black studies, association, curious They, though, he's a white man, Most area now release of english man, who is, as you can tell from his curriculum vitae black, now mean Kim dae. I've done a few things together now, he's really brilliant important voice in the conversation about, I would say, equality and politics. Way beyond the subject of rice, which is obviously was quite rightly dormant eating the news agenda and a lot of social media. but what I like about india Andrews work is that he's going. He sees it

of a global level. Andy you can't get into it. of course, about race. Without pretty soon he in up against economics, capitalism and the four main aka say the profound, a of change required for there to be meaningful and progress is an even the word. Are afraid to say, the word is revolution so he's an amazing person to talk to cause. He does all of this in a very kind of you know likely. Given the seriousness of the subject, I think he does an incredible job of communicating humorously and I

henley. So if you ain't read any of his stuff, he should back to black retelling black radicalism, the twenty first century and resisting racism. Is that that's all want less a blown title. I mean I've refer back to black, keep it simple race, inequality and a black supplementary school movements. So, like ease em yeah, I've read some of his stuff man. in plastic, and look above this podcast to give you a bit of an inch or so recent comments from our last episode with kasza of snap rock and pop.

I listened to at rusty rockets on out here luminary every day. If I can wore a wealth of incredible insight and perspective from us vulnerable humans anyway, I just want to tweet because of the beautiful reflection delivered by cache of anac about Russell's journey spirit and humidity, and that was by me now, as I said, the name of the beginning greg who's using showflat free lines as the he in his name, which are like says at rusty rockets. I wanted your conversation with kasha gone forever. Like you, I've been born with a tricky mix of feminine and masculine traits. Might I ain't got ricky mix should mean a tricky mix. I ain't got tricky mix, that's a nickname from our reproductive area. My tricky makes bars actually talking tat. I may have mine yes, and he said- and I am not really said, could we was, We was waiting in the garden and goes on,

I guess we want is put your reproductive and then it goes. Maven reproductive organ essay heterogeneous none, heterogeneous hamas the noise in turn. Could it's like this is for reproduction? That's actually not right yeah. So before you think about calling me a homophobe think twice yeah. Talk well know. No one is called in luanda anyway, just if he was thing where you saying gin, bisexual. yeah, but you gonna call me on the five you back cannot or mr Southern albania in things are going to be an anything I wanna be pro everyone I wont load moment to moment open continually to love basket, which is a pretty radical thing to be sure, exhausting sir, I've been boom. The tricky mix wishes.

I call my winky row, a feminine and masculine traits, and thus often feel unsure of my place in these new discussions and age old issues. Caches words were helpful. They certainly were she's a really brilliant teacher and a beautiful human being. Do you want some personal private? Now here's some go inside out from a man unless that russia branda come. We never ever produce any content because the people with whom, just by coincidence, of both women, ah too, what? What word would you like? Lazy inefficient? motivated busy Where did one is too busy have work to do it I'm sticking with my earlier verdicts lazy, unprofessional, cold hearted said but dusan at six one day we will produce some content, I'm sure lemonade. Focused on social media, if you want, but that don't worry you might like this, it might be appropriate, because this is an analysis of power

the dynamics, particularly sexy rice and prejudice. So you should put down social media, this ever listen to under the skin, with a candy Andrews, a great teacher, trying to achieve equality with the entire life calgary. Nor successful. That's exactly right in this era where it turns out, we were never works, but neither the surface of the people. We admired the ideas that the finance on the history and welcome to Russell brand and whisky candy thanks. Doing under the skin. Thank you very big, been busy you'll, be there So suddenly people are interested, it is as though,

having just how much interest there is about a rise in racism. So why is it? What is it different? This time. I dunno, I don't see lacking, might be seemed like this. like the level of interest around this particular killing of george fluid and their response and also honestly, some of the debates, the a bit different. So I've been surprised at the lack of condemnation about violence, in their bellies, I would have thought that have been a lot more push. Member honestly, most of the people I spoke to have can understood their level for reason that people have, and understood the anxiety that divide us of the protesters is largely a response of because of the violence of the state, and there has been a gala, yet I say I suppose, you're right is it the conditions that this has taken place in europe, the pandemic, the pre existing.

Do you need to switch size of labour oversees conservative kind of conflict? I suppose Is it good? Damn well, at least is a different kind of environment in areas like is not as a kind of a right wing government in power so I'm a relatively liberal media. So I suppose that means that perhaps council, that lack a condemnation year, but I is yours as well, so I suppose like if you actually look at it, it's no re. The what's happened, isn't any different than what happened under obama, and it's just you know, because you have trump and trump so hopeful. I think you do have these kind of liberal response, It were it's eyes, not we're. Not we're not like that, and I think the way it's been painted is kind of easy to take that side. Even boris Johnson missed that part. Many farmers of question time say in condemning the killing of jewels, loyal and mean that meet him in the meaning. A summit is an easy thing to condemn, because his

business so bent out of his mouth tat. Just just didn't sit. Well, I have to say even ever his history, given that this government on immigration even met hancock, was simple. Lives matter on tv yesterday I mean, is it's just kind of this become a bit banal, think that interesting that you say that, because one of the thing I'm in Me is the way that the the power of call it the main stream, all the hedge many or what used to be called patriarchy I reckon soon will become known as white supremacy, this of dominant power. I pray good man aging responses to deal with light, superficial problems without yielding actual control, and the kind of structural change that you have always said is required term meaningfully,

lives, you and you can see that in the uk definitely his ear way? A widespread condemnation is terrible. Things need to change what should change and you know the watch- a change. Poverty is lightly The reforms are gonna change, anything just usually what happens So it is kind of a cycle that, with these kind of events, where you know something terrible weapons, everybody reacts and then we just fall back into the patents past. We had previously. yeah? I was aware myself lycos watch him in a way that video that done that done. Well, you know I mean you spoken about. I'm glad to hear that you began on good move in britain and the more I see you with peers, morgan, the more like the fact that it has spectacle arrogant people But even this issue I think we're buggy Facebook is not going to say, is greater than the police are killing people every it's it's a kind of easy or is it easy? Is it easy side to take a little.

right. I say: there's not much at stake in condemning the filmed murder of an a of a of an innocent man yeah. I I recognize that also saw a lot of tv shows doing, you know essentially what I'm doing now speak into a prominent black academic civil rights later? How that when you see we spoke last time, you said the answer is in education by since one from taken. Temperature across the liberal mainstream media, with it ass, online or tv or elsewhere. I can see that that saw the way its move although I am sir, is also a more talk about. Why supremacy? Oh I, what you call white psychosis anymore, the converse and and normal white people are disgusted. They have seen both sides of it. What do you? What do you think of those two ideas about radicalism, normalization and sort of reappropriation and as a kind of putting dampening it down? You were one of them.

Where's things about liberal ideas about progress. Is the ideal you know you don't know about stopping educate yourself about it and then, when you have education, then you'll you'll do change right and that doesn't really work, but I guess have to have some hope got books to sell as well. So you know education going, read some books and actually there's one thing that And if you look, I'm gone amazon dry, find any books by blackberries. Wolf is all of a sudden. There wasn't it. So let us do our things of this. Last week our people are engaging in a different having imposing is with education, is it if you really engaged in a different way of understanding. Will then something positive has to come and so as we are now having a conversation that is about white supremacy, are, is about structural inequality. That can be a bad thing right. It has to be a starting point for the kind of change we need.

If it's a s a shift from the on racist, I don't see color like that kind of van ness. As you say you somewhere By analyzing perspective, yeah, ok, Do I mean by still, I think so is a book was really publicly really well we are no longer talking to why people of errors I buy iranian knowledge and you and you know those talk about those districts of issues and you why? The stakes- and it becomes big Zella boys also become canada summit, we have on the disk so that it is you carry you what it is that the covers Many clearly what he really on the train you recommended to people is kind of become a fashion statement. So I guess that's what we don't want as well. And I can see some of those trends. There is war, so yeah we're going to pick up his books going to read

say when you start to change, but are we gonna? Do it there's another question I don't know, but unopposed is I've. If you are having a conversation, then nothing is ever going to danger. It is good that there is some fluid ay and some freedom of conversation in some likes of on screen contrition and people I want to learn. I wanna be a bad ally. Those things seem good I like, I hope it gets beyond like this- a virtual, signalling stage we will solve like calling. I'm quagmire of like on instagram de opposed to black square or not. These are the kind of emblems and is often in The same necessarily superficial displays, but I suppose things that don't cost you anything. Bye, bye, bye. Now This alone are not of any particular value. Lively sacrifice seems to be an important part of contributing through change. Well invested. There is the

Issue is that, on some level, learning about inequality is one thing, but the fleets are inequalities privilege. And deal racism, gives people riveted and do we want to get rid of their privileges, the requested and ask that, when the waste that keep it, impersonal than not to say my privileges are affluent. Why entertainer is laughing some target young kids in earn a thing? Oh well, I want my kids to have the soft pair of bins of lifelong inculcate. It into thinking I just want. What's best for my kids is this of a narrow perspective? If that doesn't seem to have a race with dynamic other than is taking place within the context of an already racially by self sacrifice, the aide or hierarchal ized sort of context. I was thinking I would like a pervert like prof. Where knew we were going to be too again, a single right, your young children and a football like. I would be very interesting

no if me one in the best for my children, is somehow the expensive paypal other people to your children and our thing by thus not something I would want to be a part of. yeah. I guess I would you please let us then this is one of the reasons why we don't want to address the issues, because there, mean it really is the reality and even over disliked by children and convey my in to if they happen to be born in south africa or nigeria or jamaica when my family is from, is a completely different reality, and the truth is that the poverty that people experience other parts of the world, Ah, because we have the privileges and the world than we do at mean that there is actually true so on a basic level, if doing the best. For my kids, it I get paid out. The taxes which exploit people in other parts of the world is actually negatively.

I mean that is the brutal reality of it, which is why people don't want to really blend it cause once you understand it then he's a bit grew in it and then what do you do? Yeah is grim. I mean on or even a more direct level. You know like that. I was annulled where there is child labor enough, think I dunno the congo for minerals. That would literally be in the phone that I use, or maybe the laptop that we have in this conversation on. So it says so, if you don't have to look very far to see a direct connection between my privilege or our privilege and the exploitation of others. Now you ve talked a lot before about how you like in your book back to black, like how you what you would promote is a kind of where we are because it seems to me that it's like a kind of a global idea of blackness as opposed to a national national idea yeah. So that's one of the things and I think that when we think about privilege and some of their

when we think about raising my privilege- and we have to think about it more completely because that's it. I have a lot of privilege why people have. Let us be honest. It is true that I have also and I'm black? So I don't have the motivation to san diego. I certainly face a lot of oppression, but we're talking about structurally, I mean I'm in the top four percent in the entire world. Some crazy, like that, and so we have to. We have to be honest and to have that conversation that you think about something like the killing of george floyd, how we can see it, we can see it it's not for me? That's why we could see, but that he said the mineral from a smartphone some getting the Congo probably put down and the reason we have the technology to share these things around the world is because of their oppression, and I think sometimes as that's my problem with some of the black politics. Stuff is, if it's just a national, Daniel in the bigger picture. Dig there is no rachel. Just is if you d have equality

in the uk will have equality in america. The question has to be racial. Justice has to be about global, which is why I'm articulate this idea of blackness and black radicalism. It is about saying well actually, no, it isn't just issues that happened here. It is the kid picking the going down in the mine in the congo. There are just as important, and how do we build a politics that provides for all of us, because we do, that then we'd have revolutionary change and indeed it would be revolutionary change, because I suppose at the hall end of this argument is that it's cheaper to have two sure and mining in the congo then turn responsibly. Pay for about or even consider slow in the red right of consumer progress, these of both of these ideas strike at the economic costs of a global system based deeply embedded in capitalism and and- and I think

some of them, even though the civic, the idea of civic awareness that is being discussed in the last since the murder of george fluid as being like focused on civic inequality, accepted like why people are beginning to consider. Our privilege in a different country in a different way and what is unlikely to be addressed, would say is like that. Livelihood my boy gonna go, you will give up didn't and death. Is the big. The big problem is that you can't let you do just kind of separate the the production that we have the society that we have from that oppression. If you know, if the west paid the appropriate amount for the resources to make a smartphone, you wouldn't be able to afford a smartphone. Isn't that simple? If you paid the appropriate, if you did didn't, have a slate

essentially slave labour and making your closed couldn't afford them as cheaply. You couldn't have the consumer world that we have with soviet decayed raisins and the world that consumers would disappear with it billy because Everyone goes we wealthy enough to georgia a and workers in asia. We would be well enough to judge by the weight so the whole thing collapse. It's nothing is predicated arisen Is pre law, even though what use your many of your ideas start off as radical, I mean it seems of up, I mean radical in the sense of end capitalism. You can't say anything more radical than that. It's sort of so straightforward that if you paid the appropriate price photo the production of a small out? You cannot smartphones, so you see immediately now where the

anza aimed at Zuckerberg. I I buy the most powerful people in the world are suddenly in the frame and they ain't going to be in the frame his wife, I like so like it. How does that does something like this job just ultimately get fed and bled came to the culture as its over in a fruit forms, a virtuous cycle in laying or just me defying language? A little bear awesome little gestures here and there or in it, cause the the real. It sounds like the. The truth is that it requires fundamental change to the entire organization of the relationship to end. Those countries in western democracies near which is why I say one is more recycles, is and would be intelligent way you can educate because he's not lobby, This idea that racism is a bad, a bad way thinking through ignorance, not true whiteness is produced by that political economic relationship.

cause you need to exploit people unique needs to be dying, historic rights who I believe nobody wants to believe relate debt would make you got that would if you actually understood it, then surely we will stop right. So these myths and his ideas about progress. Is it residual and there to keep us comfortable, reap the rewards of other peoples, a prison, I said it. Why way? So if you don't change the economics you're not going to change the the ideas of you will always just reproduce and become something different here. since we are not discussing radicalism or not, radical were discussing of whether or not you are interested in these subjects is authentically not because if Europe's inch some interest is authentic saw of them The view that you go awry, I see I am directly contributing to base because I live in the degree of comfort and who are we willing? I liked amount that these comfort ends. I demanded of seeking to do that

I think he's gonna he's gonna. Do that? That's why I city so I just finished this book and I just had to send it to the publishers like any more positive with the books all about just now, fundamental rights into the global economy he's got any delay is terrible. Eleanor today, So I was thinking about running hopes that surrounded give it a bit me. But one of the positive things were so agitated the bathtub level that we talk about That is really optimistic. That revolution is possible. It will come from the people who are the most oppressed. That's the isn't me that is the people in forget he are doing the mining who are on these crazies, whose every deck day is life or death. And can you build a political movement that can spare revolution, so I'm actually very confident that can happen and that and then that and that in itself we didn't capitalism, but on the other hand there was so, which is fine right, but the question the publishers are asking me is: what can white people do that

if the question is all your publishes, it's all right. Well, let me think about this, and the the best I could come up with was one of the things that really does make the west different is look all empires for eventually twist isn't even their old historic. A couple of it is, but one thing that makes us different is that you look at the way that we consume, which is really the problem. Here, that's going to kill that planet, that's going to kill all of us at some point like so it is not just in our interests, material interests. It really is in the interests of everybody, think in a different way to run the economy because illicit again in all the world. If we don't stop, That gives us a bit of hope that may be something different committees, I suppose that, ideally transcendent of rice, so you have just given you notes for the for the publication of the book

if you still like what you can do is become more ecologically responsible, that that is no. That is not along racial lines that particular division. I see what you're saying there about white psychosis, that it requires a kind of perspective where you one psychotically cuts off the idea of carrying it. This isn't just this psychosis, a I believe, is underwritten by capitalism. In that I would argue, the same thing is true: when we with domestic homelessness, for me to be able to sort of just the- I deal with homelessness near to me like geographically near to me. It requires that, on some level I have to think those people aren't the same as me or and essentially are inferior, because if I didn't think that I wouldn't live with it or some arms imagined candy a more advanced evolved,

a group of people on the basis of color, like a life of a bit evolved, avows right and they would go well. Facchino was, I don't know if the children, mining and the homelessness that will be the stuff. That is a bit like the things that we look back at and go what you did what yeah, and if so I mean, is it possible you'd like to think that the the empathy is possible across all situations with homeless people and there'll? Be? Do you have to be black to feel connection to the poor black kid in africa mining? you'd like to think that not a right, but the problem is the way that we're condition to think. The way the wind educated into school into the society,

Think of ourselves as individuals, and we, the race thing, is so important to how we define how much right to life people have. They just gets in the way. So, for example, one of the things that was writing the book. I've just done, is you actually look at the way we think about human rights, universal rights in the This is all a rate is a basic level. What he says is everybody: has the right to life right bit like animals? only why people have the right to civilization, and so you look at the? U n! What exactly are you? The? U and work woo. The un will go in as a driver or they'll provide water and provide the basics for life, but you ain't not interested in the proper rights rights and equality that they don't? U n doesn't even talk about race at all in any of his many millennium goals. even though, if you look at racial equality at global level is worth that literally did is the light. The hierarchies,

from the enlightenment ideas are racist and black on the bottom. Why? On the top and everybody else in between, and that's the framework of rights that we have so like, like a slight we have, can now make globalization in one sense like that, you know this is one free market. We can get resources from everywhere, but when it comes to equality, a very still vanished and abandoned territories? Are you saying that that banishment occurs on racial lines? You could just look at the daya and that's how that pyramid is formulated. It is always, and- and if you look at some of the solutions from the lift they just as bad anything. They freeze that inequality. So, for example, one of the ideas, universal basic income, the ideal, everybody should get basic amount money. They pick that two subsistence levels So if you, if you get everybody that what that's like ten times, will you be? here as what it will be in kenya, for example. So your baby freezing kenya at the level of poverty.

it's ok can you believe in you can live in his fine. We, if a deal with the imbalances between the west and the rest, we just gotta make sure you can eat a desk. That's the universal frame of the right the only way that I can envisage change of this magnitude is through. I kind of spiritual awake by which I mean a willingness for individuals to say more, poor may that that that they call it a ends. Then it is the. I am able to sustain a certain level of comfort or I can see, I feel how hard that is cause it's like he's a push on the no, not my stuff or unlike

and then on the other thing is to look at alma, is so much to look at the world and history in a troupe from her as best we can ever hope to truly global perspective and look at the relationship between the colonial past imperial past, the I and the the human impact and trauma and to have recognized. This is something that needs to be resolved and it's resolute shit is gonna affect everybody. I said nice idea that don't under those it could happen owners why not make a yeah? I dunno I mean that's why I boy I actually, I do think the people who are oppressed always revolt, so I think that's a that's probably as if they're safer, NATO people who write about which will take over the system and in you don't have a choice I mean, for example, if you had the african revolution and you had you couldn't to steal it.

The resources will end the capitalism dont straightaway you'd have to end. We have to him, and then he asked in them Well, think about is of a different, I say so like you would say: let there we want to be data and racism. So why don't you poor revolutionary politics in that? If an african nations bringing governments that are resolved june as or poppies but the west. So I control the mineral resources in the same way that, like for the oil, was controlled from the seventies ease onwards, which I believe had no negative global consequences is done, There is the earth it I like it. I bought. My response to this question is an honest. I don't know what we should do and I don't think he's my responsibility either in my answer like this, without I do giant anatomical channel a lot

was the morning malcolm say, malcolm get Malcolm gives you space the ballot or the bullet is actually really relevant today, because because of he's literally saying, look it's the city's going to burn down. If you don't give black people just what we need essentially- and this is what you're having today I bet he does put- I just kind of olive branch where he says america is the only country that can have a nonviolent revolution, just listen to people? What are we saying? You need massive tracts of transfer of wealth from the west to the east support any real infrastructure development. It's not impossible. It could happen. Root of my record. Proper repair victory justice is possible, is unlikely. It is not possible at the moment the conversation is happening say in the united states is in a way quite rudimentary. It's about police brutality, invisible oppression

and an end to the kind of you know coopers in the park, racist attitudes and a degree of so, I would almost say protocol sensitivity with less amphilochians Joe Biden or when white people the black face or wherever. In that light I dont think path. The converse: They should not. Even though I have seen on earth poacher social media, the system is broken the system's day. More is supposed to be doing wishes side like something that of vienna. From my perspective, I've always about what will the wild things not change in this, because it's operating for the people that have to dump the other dominant, and I do you are you up to me- dick. How do how do you for an our? It's, not your job, because your professor, a black person to sell for fish within their quality that consumers. When I was always going on television saying they should be more economic equality or mobs fairness in oil,

I trust people that will want you going to do them. What you gonna do, then, frankly, call him a bloody nose in this area. well pressure and like a lot of the answers that are proposed are about collective ization, democracy and people having enough access to the decisions that affect their ability, lives, which I can see what you said about Malcolm x's, point that that will be easier to achieve in a country that at least has some sort of infrastructure. Even if that, restructure, has been walked to the interests of the late year? Mean many difficult, I think so. One of the things I'm actually writing is psychosis of whiteness book. That's the next project and one of the first places I stayed was basically slate and love the crew whiteness literature that there is such a whole I'd ever you come across this just recently. They require a few books. One vote it's why supremacy in me? You wanted, so you

talk about race and are almost like handbooks about. If you are white, what do you do when you can kind of do this? Do the work as they call it? I just like ticking off boxes. Like don't talk about your colleagues head and you know Suddenly they go. This is ridiculous. Let the idea that there is some kind internal salvation within individual white people, the content of them into allies and then they're going to solve the problem with us. I mean that's: that's that classic liberal education give people information enough, they'll fix it, we're just not the case. Really, then we have to be start talking far more seriously about how do we have structural change, the change talking about most of these reforms? The police

individual change of white people? That's not that's, not that's not enough. That's definitely done that. I mean that was the old framework of the civil rights movement and that's that's what got us to where we are today, so we needed a completely new framework. I think say. If we just took one aspect of the problem like policing, do you think that they would you say that the problem is to be entrenched and institutionalized that what would actually be required will be a kind of abolition of the police force and not right. They start game with this. New thing is going to have a different name and from from it's inception, one of the things we want to make sure that they are all target groups that regularly murdered. How can we bias away from that is that we can say that that that's an example of red of revolution in one particular area of public life, rather than rather than for having both with them. You can illusion in one area of social, like that it is not by the police thing is so tied in to everything else. economic inequality. What why

the police in a particular areas, housing inequality. We sought the stereotypes that underpin the whole thing with blood will be more aggressive and it is just one aspect of it is a symptom of all of those problems. So you can't soviet separately On the other hand, I one of the more radical ways of thinking about this. Is people talk about abolition, so prison abolition? or police abolition. We don't do that same question, which is why don't we start again to police forces. There is this. He's already terrible activity How would we make our community safe nasa, better steinway? Nothing just start again, start and yet I wildlife prison abolition, for example, where most people in prison don't need to be imprisoned people on his, so let us think again, who do we actually need to to keep away from people in ITALY? This completely wipe the slate clean and start again didn't like, because I'm not pushing this on you, I'm saying both of us together on this podcast.

with it need not necessarily ever becoming government policy set me no in the next few years, like think about like a few air is that you would norman I to be like the kind of pilot schemes for they suits. I yet pretty right ways I liked what these are the things we can ask of breakdown sea like because the thing I think and the compromises I, of course, of the aid to speak, to a lot of why liberal people alike is led by you just one the democrats to get in. That's it. That's about a right song. That's the problem with this all dropping his I did it. You know you get rid of trump. When you go to Biden is better or do you just get democrats and is better it's not until you need to be looking at fundamentally fundamentally, the real debate is always economics but people are more likely to be poor that go that feed into lots more likely than poor housing, unwelcome different areas and as a key area. So little

about equality, is how would you deal with the economic disadvantage that level in america and worldwide, as will be dealt with that issue, then you going down the right. The right road It is easy to see why that is not embarked on, because that does indeed lead to revolution once you start unpicking that you still some ok right. So in order to create economic equality, we can, after a radar rights these resources, we can have the shot down these institutions. We have the regenerate this and like like we have discussed before. At the end, it was a sofa a pivotal moment in my understanding that if there were reparations to the x people exploited by imperialism, then you couldn't have the host nation any more. That would be the end of america. That would be the end of great britain, so a swiss inner hive that is held together by certain ideas. So when, like the nest,

third by something like that what's happening now, like your light, we say to use it to begin this conversation I hope, was things come from positive conversations, positive relationship. Lovely moments like kneeling police officers or that guy, that's like will march with you, but the that about by sense that you see these kind of gesture or changes that in fact serve to support the existing power structures rather than meaningfully alter mean dastard deformity keeps. Key decision empower. I think there is a genuine question we have to have conversations which is. It is possible, the kind of

take away some of the harder edges of inequality like that's possible. If you look at that's, what's happened really over the last forty years or fifty years. Probably, is that you know I have a job I couldn't possibly have had fifty years ago for someone who is better and if you looked at globally, could you take a bit of wealth, spread out a bit? Make it a bit more equal everybody, so people aren't dying as much, which is also happening. If that's what you want the nest, they need this desert evil. The question is: is that what is that it will be really? What do we want to go to the quality? Is Is that why supremacy or do you want to work? is based on waited remedy, but does not, as many people die because of it

Could we have white supremacy but dire white supremacy? If that would be okay with you, because that's what I do anyway. So this idea of symptom free racism, but that's what we're that's often times that we're talking about. We just don't want to have symptoms, so that example, I would experience mostly symptom free racism. Don't get stopped by the police. Have a good education have good job exit does and that's and most want really without

It change the whole system. The racism still there, but can we just get rid of some of the symptoms? Maybe look if that's the world you want to live in, that's the best we can do with the system, but I would hope we had a bit more ambition to actually end the disease that p attach all the gay rights activist once said that in his experience of you know, for years of protest and all of the stuff he's done for lgbtq rights, like that, he said that after much struggle, the power will ye on civil rights issues, except for where it relates to the financial and economic power like gino. Yes, you can get married or a year now we won't have them over the best symptoms, as you say, of racism or other forms of prejudice, but when it comes to whose in control of the resources in the power, no thank you whenever necessary.

So imagine talks about. We need, not so madam says, look if you dont want to civil rights to possess civil rights that are. Mrs civil rights to use have equal access. To really disease system Everyone is human rights. Where do you? a real human rights. Everybody has the right to exist equally, and that does actually deal with the economic issue. If you had the right to equality league exist. Equally, then it'd be economic equality and that's a completely different, completely different. As struggle this. The reason the law ought, where I arrive, is a place that I've reached independently. From my own, I not through the lens of race and racism, but for the lens of inequality and oppression. I suppose more based on class politics and my understanding of

it was politics that and let your we don't want the target, as you have said, before, disgust the way that the spoils of capitalism a distribute it into gets this slice of the pie. But I I I system that is transcendent evolved or in a revolution from the current system, meaning that yet We're not talking about how many congressional seats go to these kind of people, that kind of people of many senate seats go to the or how many police chiefs have this color or that gender or sex in it we're talking about a complete ground so, like I can I would in a way, can be. the main machinery of communication is media that around by those interests than that thomas, political class who comes from that background, and, as you have said many times, you can have a light, Barack obama as president, and that that wasn't a war.

At the moment of jaywalk. From now on, we're not having this anymore when ave any more shows that these systems, these institutions, so have run on a longer timeline than any individual, can meaningfully perforate or alter arabic and my kids real noise, omitting to jump the gun. Forbear plays a brace of paid, that's a real priority. Actually, because how can you answer a question? How to reorganise tell your choice even though the question you are about to answer was how to we reorganized global politics. I mean we were on the brink there if something quite special aka remit, if you have roughly where as guide right well, this is what let you know. Look I'm always banging the same. Drum basically candy is that, if likely, because it comes from my own personal perspective,

The only way that I can imagine being willing to leave a completely like a lie. A completely different life is, if I start to believe that my individual identity, my cock constructed identity, is not the most important thing in the world anymore, but is more important. Is my connect connection to other people, my connection to the planet that can my connection to my principles. For me, that is a kind of spiritual change as a pole, to an ideology, this bill on materialism, capitalism being the ultimate materialistic ideology about the control of resources, making profit from those resources, human or otherwise. So that's why I feel like that. If a significant number of people sort of, and I felt that way so corona virus might provide a moment of lightness of over hiatus wessex of people's right to think What is my life I'm gonna die anyway was imports to me what am I was coming to light but, like I wonder, if I wonder, is it something that you

see that particularly as your great hero, Malcolm x, as far as I can see, watched a most of the phases, even the waves talking about his politics, because how do you change the load about politics? I feel that we did he savings for spiritual ends. I feel like he did. Yeah, you may think definitely right need a different framework, because too much of a disease still stuck in the political world. in democratic public and labour conservative, and that does not gonna get in as I right there has to be a different dimension to this. which is about solidarity and is about my looking at the wheel differently is about being killed. And is awaiting him up and was very easy, but I guess it spiritual some little light. I can, They changed its name fidgeted twice over just in the he was a muslim and developed muslim. I spent a lot of time in the Middle east. Saudi rabies free died, but really

every day. His his religion from his politics, but you could still say is politics is still spiritual. So well he's, even though he changed his name to l, how's malik Chavez did that earlier than people think that when he was in nation of Islam, You use malcolm x because he said it does. The condition of the world well, we are not gonna make that. That's that I cant move away from Malcolm x, because the conditions that created malcolm x is due to the conditions that exist and, if you think about when he talks about the connection, Let people worldwide mean there isn't really any material reason why I would care about the kid in the congo really mean. I'm do well he's not it's not that it is a kind of spiritual thing right, because I'm black because of that history. That connection to other black people, even when it's not really my interest to do so on that level is a sort of spiritual. You know when you're talking about yeah and like, why is the room? Where is the room for

Even when you talking about actual revolutionary politics as opposed to reformat, steve liberal politics, where's the room, then for alliances that transcend rice. What? If If I am am approaching in the idea of revolution from the perspective of equality and awakening and not exploiting the the boat, people are the world's resources in your approach it from your particular field of expertise, educational experience. While what point does it become ca? Cooperative novi, so if we agree that education to be good for your book for white people, if you agree that education is important and I think you have to separate schooling from education, because what we get is schooling but actually a proper education that says look: why is the world really like? How do we understand it? Was the real was really a state, then, need allies with, let your body you in there appears boogie probability

They have got my work, add to the most people for different reasons, because you do have platforms to put the work in. So that's really a pussy. You need to have those connections, you've gotten to be in a silo that only darwin right and also in terms of following a map of a lot of funding from some welcome one opposing malcolm when he was in the name of islam is really narrow, really national has a kind of a restrictive view that only oblivious to the lebanon does not really revolutionary. When my family, she says what I see the white people can help. Gotta get help can't join d organization because new innovation we got an organization is doing, is certainly Lenny. What do you any voice? Do it? Then you money, do it cause you get right. So if there is a political movement, revolutionary. The candle revolutionary change anybody can gave open then really should give organism.

maybe they are involved in a different way, lovely by involving the zone and across the board, more generally in the wood that reddick was black radical politics. It made me think about Israel, palestine. It was back before there is a very clear here. You got you caught me. Look at that. It is only one way to look at that conflict reboot radical in the same way as if you look at in the same way the class relations here so blair radicalism. Is it just about lobby who is about a different way of looking at the world? that's a a different way of looking at the world. We shows how you can understand all social relations differently. this revolution happening in your house out right on the. Well roof? Apparently there is, and I'm writing a piece for the guardian about twenty twenty things. Twenty things we can do practical things you can do in the wake of the protests, so I'm ready

deposit will get good on it cause. I know it's not your natural perspective, because I suppose you deal in the facts of the matter and the facts of the matter are often not positive, but I'm kind of that that the guardian, pushing you to come up with the right come on. These forgot psych estate is practical, dialogue is over above directed I'll, be there will be two readings many days, and I think this is because we too well stationary politics, people who can turn off because it can looks always a big problem in evidence broken. What do you do? Tat but you know revolutionary changes the same as any kind of change it starts at home. It starts piecemeal, it starts with little things become big things. so ocean of what we should never think is too big to solve the problem. That is what happens, is

LA I feel like I'm when people have like little flourishes of optimism about the police, kneeling or like in a moment of I say, look he's going to be all right or like big peaceful marches. People have many many colors, I feel like her, and you must feel this a lotta time. Surely not a bit of a party pooper guy and yeah, but it's not structural change and actually that kind of liberalism can I introduce you to the wolf and the fox now The wolf is a clear predator. The foxes are a wily, oh son, of a gown, and I like it so how to lie, and I feel it's the same with other forms of revolutionary politics. You would set under the umbrella of black radicalism as a form of like it is that people think that it's this year or two bigger task to contemplate that reaches out to women. But what's the point, if it doesn't affect help their kid in the congo and that the suffering of all of us, then he we are only discussing superficial change in symptom lists. China.

If you caught the thing about it is so I'm all for progressive change like they can gonna make small changes to make big changes. But just because something looks different doesn't mean it's changed. I think that's the key thing, so police kneeling isn't chain and is not going anywhere. Like this, this is complete nonsensical. the. If anything is to further embedded in the problem because making you feel more comfortable towards Please you have probably one of the main problems with the way the racism it is is delivered if you like. So the question is: what are the little things that are taking us in the right direction? So the protests, for example, that's a good. That's like whether I can say- the protests, I'm gonna change anything we seen before, but do you have, then the people on the streets, thinking about easy she's talking about these issues, engaging with these issues. That is a step in the right direction. So the question is what the next step in the right there. so that we don't combat, ran to where we are again in five years. In a way, we need to establish some very like some simple principles

what will we can? No longer prioritize energy and profit over the tops of the health of the planet as a whole, that the basic principle and and that that what keeps coming up in this conversation add the hot age of the composition of crises? Economics that until there is meaningful economic opportunity in that's gonna require not the did the pit. The current system is divided up differently, but that it is changed dominique of Christ, If you look at- and this is the big problem with america- they'll be america, if you look about african americans, they were taken to america because of slavery to do labor. That's the point, that's what it is for a million african americans in a country, slavery ends, you don't eat him anymore, It is a boom in this, after the postponement There's a boom. We need workers and people again to get somewhere.

It's gonna. Look at the way work is going networks just generally gone, even to robotics or has gone out to the veteran whoopee. That's what's causing these problems in america is that you actually have forty million people. society cannot provide, for they did not say that it is and treated as surplus. So what do you do? Well? What possible steps candidate other than radically rethink an out and out of the way the economy? What's gonna guarantee the art of jobs, wellbeing, decent jobs in amerika, for african americans to have got it doesn't exist? So what do you do you have to? If you do? If you accept that, then you have to accept, you need to have a radical overhaul of the society bloody hell. Can they well? Thank you. I suppose I walk at from from this conversation. While I feel like is that collectively community that we need a concretize, some radical ideas over its life, so that we know

What it is people discussing save for. In this conversation, the order of abolition of the police force, abolition of the prison system, meaningful re like cause. He like he like you said there is a surplus population due to the way the manufacturing industry is changed and It's real no prizes forgets in news. Gonna have bay the four billion less that suffer so like a unless, unless, unless the pinnacle of our achievement is no longer profit bus, I ate an entirely different set of aims. Then this problem will continue to instantiated in various forms, with the symptoms to some degree addressed by the underlying disease. Never oh yeah, very much. I says there I mean adding destined to move through every one of them is, is that

in the hole, we do really need to rethink capital generally. But if you look at psychosis, look at the way, that, even though the world's literally going to enjoy leave, we don't change because no don't aim so is it does tells you how big it. But if you speak to this basic facts right by the other thing, I say to support the oppressed dummy, let this bit centuries of movements of people who are better placed to make the changes need is always like this. It is true everything, revolution revolution is what tips things into a different and you have to say where is revolution, going to become where's it going to come from it's not going to come from white people in europe in america. It's not like it's going to come from the oppressed, and so we should be doing all we can to support the oppressed to ferment revolution. If that's what we want, that's what I'd say right. So at some point, yeah thanks. So at some point, that's like going to mean that if, if in an if not armed struggle that obey the withdrawal of labor at the union.

I see invite that's where that that will come from light, that these, let the play the places that are most exploited, the people the most exploited, recognising that. But I do have power collectively, I suppose, that's where some sort of global alliance of information and support could take place that you could have yeah an internationalist solution if that, if there was, if that were the support, when were the focus when was to the to the most exploited, and that I mean that no in a national sense, but in an international sense, if you faint okay, so we got support the people that are away and then again, you'd straightaway be confronted with. Oh, no we're fucking with the interests of some of the most powerful nations and corporate interests in the world house he's? Gonna play on the nine o clock news? These the terrorists, these people. They are paid files that rapid who sends you start.

Any anywhere near that stuff I mean yeah. There is, I mean that's the other problem is. If you look at the way that things are controlled, then I mean it's just the next level of control. Even in terms of The way things are produced, so it's very rare. You have a part of this produced in one place because capital understands. If he's producing one place, you can shut down that place and that doesn't exit. And then you stop production nasty. That's why poor things are produced in different boxes around the world cause you stop one place and just pick up somewhere else. I mean look at the technologies of surveillance and I mean look. It's not easy thing, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this aid is going to be it's going to be straightforward, but at some point That, then, is what seven billion people on the planet. The way I mean really only about two billion doing decently. Most people do

I bet most people in the world don't have a toilet in the next few times. We forget the scale of the problem as the west is terrible. So if the five billion people get together and say this has to end they, wouldn't they just. How did you get? How did you get that that unity and that mobilization, I suppose what you need. The few educated and charismatic figures, some international iraqi, the racist exit were one of whom, I wear a kimono in a dreadful reappropriation of another as emblems yeah, but no, but that's that's the one thing that actually is ironic, because it's the technology to do the kind of thing that needs to done is here like is here in a way that it wasn't here previously. You can have done and compensating people random like crazy. My country's during

then because this in some ways the system's created it analogy first to have the unity that we need, but because we have it in olive oil as interested in actually having that unity. I told you earlier, but I see the tools are there. If you do want to build a genuine international movement, I think that's what that's? What we should all be hesitate is If you want you still having this conversation on the global level, it totally changes the nature of the conversation. My sense is that everybody would be happy happier if freed from this psychosis freed from the illusion that My not differences between people were worth elevate in that material. privileges and comforts, while of course, hugely seductive. If you can free yourself again with a spiritual again, they have you free yourself from the wanting, if you can free yourself from the one in a need in la if you can become

Save yourself is that of master of others. Then you have grown eta caught now. You are free to stop thinking you're all right now, the now I have a mission now above his me. I think we're out when you think of this. If nihilism loss emptiness banality of contemporary western life. What is it you're going to do climb some tiny little later, a more ever chosen. Few weaver is a good one or a bad one that you've ended up in or out you gonna be part of something transcendent and glorious. Now, when people start talk in that way, they always has its task in a little bit shaky, but I still think I still believe- and I think that somehow you can reach, into paypal you can reach beyond their. That now ro, set of beliefs that we all of us have, and waken, something in them. That is great. I think that there is a greatness. Do not

it's possible. I knew I don't want to say that, but try to wrap up on a high. You got you got rights when he thinks tomorrow for guardian readers to sort their shit god. He taught me and my guide optimism. I think that they'll get I get the it s. Will epic days does It s the thing right now they will be revolutionary movements. I think that's probably the route that these changes. The message for me will be of evil, be nice, I think you're, probably right now we may be on a bit too pessimistic about the the capacity of people to overcome levity. Rule tennessee's, and I would love to be proved wrong on this love to be proved right, it'd be great if it happened, but I guess the point is that we can't wait. You could get on board. Who is going to do I'm going to do he's going to get on board, get on board, but not the trains going anywhere, and if that train successful is going to overtime the system anyway and you'll have to go so

I don't see you as pessimistic optimistic. I see you as authentic authentic and when you speak, he speak from a place of knowledge and understanding and also see you is like kind. That's how it and which I think is a good tool to have when you're gone around telling people but they are new, rotting ale. Everything's gonna, be this man It's probably the face. People will say, he's lovely that guy says because deconstruct our lovely comfortable house. Thank you or did no thank you. They know I know, but this part of this conversation I think, is important. Unless you have a platform where you can do that, the less the less video we did loads of people that go into it, saying that she's made me think differently and reevaluate this. Oh that's, that's important. They said. That's definitely the first step

is, can you keep everybody for the second, then, of course, that I can fruit is to have period myself or I got very, am antagonized by and I suppose what we call liberalism because of what happened when I start getting involved in activism and doing stuff on youtube and getting them did that counts will stay there has been taken over by developers. Signed is no point vow inks. It won't bring about any change. Just be in every. You know. You notice stuff, I said and a lot. I the ferocity of like like that. telegraph or wherever one nicer than some left wing tie owes you might begin twenty things you can do in the morning light so that and I'm not that song, scarred me a bit and by also woke me up. It woke me up to something like an like you, know, do not feel make acute adam, ischia, hindi, he might have increased.

If you have the self power of nightmares he sort of takes, he makes these brilliant films where he takes with historical light of recent historical narratives and tells you how shit his most recent one actually has that who's. That, I call x dude that was at the like yeah like he tells an interesting story about that and that the slum landlords and how it came out. It is really like he's he's a brilliant filmmaker and I talked to him and laugh about how Some point in the nineties. The left abandoned the. Dear of dealing economic inequality, a and brigitte genuinely rep Then import in favour of consequence free, emblem, emblem: and symbolic gesture politics it back so became saw of bourgeois. I guess I don't know what, if I mean even look at, I did the idea that he should vote. I mean that most people live in areas way. He makes zero difference will even vote when I my remit, noted sorry

You am my going through I'm going to signal that it's a symbolic thing read it and not with the tories, any worker will actually do enjoy full until globally, with data revolver the basic the thing with the different for labour and that have what is what happened to the left, where it is just the poverty of political will: it'd, be as though the idea is that you can't you shouldn't vote is not. Wifi is somehow like some blueness lunatic thing to say why. Why would it be? We should be thinking of different alternatives. The ballot box isn't going to solve this problem. For us we need to solve. the different ring on a sense that are left these migrate in back in the proprietor, We call centrist centuries direction and, like you know, inspire repeated attempts. The Democrats resist Bernie sanders you'd like to people that are interested in radical policy would still seem like a very moderate type of politicians. Ella, everything's motor, a fool, if you want your belief, is that the system needs top to bottom Zira right, he's tethered growled aid over the boat, the dead

the left doesn't want to do what is actually the left is. One of the main ways the system maintains itself so by accepting that kind of piecemeal social democratic settlement, as the only thing you could possibly get through? Basically, and that's what we're talking about is either social democracy and neoliberalism, somewhere between that's the whole problem live weight. Wind, we limit, imagine isn't that the one or the other or so they left it. For me, the left is, is that in this book I talked about racism. I already talk about the road. Do you add one whole chapter on the net? What's wrong with the left, because the left in some ways embeds the system moves in the right, because it just as abandoned any ideas of radical and radical change yeah. I I inclined to agree from because I think you have what you expect from donald trump, what to expect from boris Johnson. That's what they say. What you're surprised

is that the one rule for them one for the but like the left it would like it was men a bit like a football match, or at least reflect what's going on yeah? Well, thanks. May I, like a that's, really really good for us and seems to me you ve got a combination of god in our course good morning. Britain and some chick to write you could do. Is I think if you can see some radicalism into it, listen to it. We then, where I'm sure you do do all the time if you can tell operate like make, people confront that. How do we participate? The thing about me as a twelve step white person is I reckon I have to evaluate continually like war I'm doing it's like. I have to continually resets instead about you need to do this. You need to do that. You need to have to go well. So what are you

dude in Russell whether you participate in their sins. Let why? What by default? This is how I was born. These are the condition I mean I'm rich now. This is not like that. You know you for you. I am a participant and then be honest with the deepest aspect of yourself when it comes to Islam. Oh my god, like the the fear I have of the world and the lack of coke plus the love I have of my children. That makes you sort of can of if but really solve so ties you down, and I think it's have even a literal margaret thatcher way, but in a kind of just I want anything happened to my kids. It's crazy, fucking, dangerous world out there. You know that so he's asking. Is brave europe, its asking incredible bravery of people to go like you, god look beyond. Even the love of your children and the fear that you feel the core of yourself. Not war who are you really who argue you? Then yeah, I mean there's so many that I struggle with as well. I mean I work in a university. I get paid more than most people, I know

and that's why they're, what the system it gives you into it, and then you can't there is made that you want to do good is: did you got to go to the treadmill so as a problem for these problems? It had a fount of all of us. Like to over the system. But I understand from this advert that these nyc traders support revolution in hawaii. I can handle it if they already did that, but no, but I think he's the your way he was like some level just that you have to struggle from where you are, and they said, that's where you are and also you know, everybody's most people in the west arena or in the same conflict relationship as you are just a more extreme, because you have more money right, but I'm no different. The next person is no different. You know the west. In general, I mean if you're, the poorest person in the west is in the top eighty five percent event as in the world or something

wait a minute. So is it think that we will have to struggle with a miserable where we are and we have platforms and opportunities that we can use to the benefit of bringing about meaningful. You can see that the robustness of the system comes then in some degree, kaya hindi from the fact that buys one metric a is a success. I if you know you're in the top, I e five percent. It's only when you start to consider other factors like a we again spiritual light. You know. Do you like? What is your life? Who are you? What does it mean? What like in a light and that's why I like it as I was there, I saw a white. I said, my admiration and respect and love for malcolm x was. This is a person that he will die for. He believes in dead die, for he believed in no questions asked he's, got doors he's plus it like in a life. For me, that's like, oh, my god. It sort of makes me cry that there are people that are

couple of get in touch in touch with that in themselves. You know, but even america violent back and we're not going to put his life on the line, but one of the things he did before he looked better kids than autobiography of malcolm x. these families gingerly wealthy at I sold so many copies and he made sure he did it before he died to make sure he looked after his kids. So even even thinking about Just in case we don't work out, keep the right route, agitated just in the legacy then of malcolm's family having these well from apples were, and then what happens grappled with it? Actually I can actually do the revolutionary trajectory of malcolm does get destabilized by, but because now you've got a rich family, so he does it changes the nature of it. I suppose it's because it is a problem for all of us yeah, it's a powerful, powerful machine. We found ourselves in yeah. We need to be positive, though,

revolution is possible. As I say, revolution is possible and anything that can help to bring about revolution has to be a good thing. I'm calling this podcast revolution is possible. This episode on that skin with cohesion. The Andrews revolution is possible thanks, my knowers. Thank you. Thanks, listen under the skin with kinda Andrews and me was in his well. Let me know: for the uninstall grinding attack me Russell branding, tweet man, we're rusty rockets will cost around this sign up to a man list. If you want a crushing the disappointment of never in a video russell round their com, where you can ask If Madame list, army news and video content as alarm shrewdness of ascribed interest an automaton right now, we'll be back next week. We ve gotta. Tao is that right job next week in the meantime, if you enjoyed this, this issue a candy, and why wouldn't you ve done there's nothing wrong with. It is brilliant conversation check out these ever episodes with dick

on brilliant woman way where she from sweden by she lackest swedish foreign. Now I know why she's a norwegian woman muslim, both on good game you'll love it. In fact. I know she, the post, a bit of our staff that today we should why? Don't we re post thou like your, where, every day the avian pay so check out the icon earth such good check out doktor James Mccleery, that do too serious teacher and Henry Giroux and brad evans and again I will point out the youth misspelt Henry Jr. Wasn't me who you blaming they were the solidarity our two among women standing up to the patriarchate was gone only the patriarchate of anything a tricky mix, I'm the welcomes the trick Mix matriarchal is a tricky I'll mix, turkey books. Well, keep checking my youtube channel. If you noticed, has been

they only up. How do you feel about that these borders differently? I like it, we ve allows you to content, you'll love it and also thank you, listening to skin from luminary, is really allows me to create good quality content. And live a nice life thanks.