Hello and welcomes you under the skin. From luminary this we got the great john bombs jumbos, the former england, Newcastle liverpool watford footballer an offer of a brilliant new book, the uncomfortable truth about racism. Now what you might like about this book is jump. Barnes has a complex perspective on rice. take her out. What interests me is he's willingness to incorporate economic and ass or in it arguments. For example, why are I'm working class people vilified for racism when systemic racism is, by its nature, the result of people that are in power within systems, not people that don't have power systems so as to grow immigration and I think you are gonna love it. Do you think that they can elaborate jen? it is very charismatic cause Jeez. Did you find a shame to remember that? No just gonna believe everything he says. That's right. He started his fight Ben shapiro, now home

they thought I hear passive jamaican lot ass. Anybody! I really did not that you can't or protocol grandiose. I wrote to the rear basically tonal thing: After that we can do no way I can didn't you can barely. Then you run into your own voices, are heard. I'm trying to and then say more every word. You deliver zaka person having a baby to go further and say that she has. Maybe what our elderly people say when they look at me, I'm one of them goes away where a person. Which one is that justice is it is for the elderly is that you must sicken them what do you think, I'm going to say she's elderly she? Seventy eight through like lightning. The thing is the off everything I've been through the elderly have to deal with you. So why not say one too many kicking the thing when it removed that other son stand there.

We found out what we go on like this. We're not gonna jump down the goody, Anthony's well here too, you came, I won't be, laying a lady is there. I can we wearing the terms we laughlin the black disco, It's against the warlike alone is slowly. Arms mother had like it's happened. The ties that the middle suckers I do not mean a christmas pie. He martin in my not causing any music. There's these more russian musicians, communism yeah- maybe I am joking reminded- tells us that I wouldn't have told you that you invited welcome to christmas dinner. There's going to be russian outfit russia, then I have had more time at laura's in charge of booking it is these people planning an accordion that russian and I think, they're gonna make us stand up and tom is if I will any works here. We ve got

you hope here now five job is opened up to ridiculing about. We gonna do at christmas spain. Why? turning seventy, so I a holiday, and could you never gone abroad for her birthday before nor and whereabouts? She chose malaga. She, by governments, must believe in malaga mother. Yes, she just wants you like being in a city. Could she likes? The potter end doesn't want to be like on an island she likes. It is like a restaurant in a cafe chicago and wish. You speak very he'll, try or during your site. Owner, has about whether a beer pointed out wait upon their vast, their cafe portfolio, cornell lecce is cray. Pardon me karachi milk, yeah well,

I I've. Never I've never without first degree journal not honour their mooted Not only did the first class earnings I remember that being the job in needed, a job interview explaining, I just want you want a job china get coffee with letter. I now know: let's try this black coffee niagara. Fair enough, but I wasn't to but the job in view not even knew said: cornelius photoshop. I remember that was the tall man is breaking up that lets married. You know I was in washington. Now I waited and then what people like actress, evans collaborate, brief broke ass. We adhere to it because he does no fees Patrick However, I would say a listening and call me right. irish there within the eu, but spilled out across the year. I was men, you

you may be in but put on whose them so it must be. There must be somebody severely mentally ill with not found your landlord amendment? No four. I listen to these listen to shoutout, Julia Rosa, just do it in post gen. I don't want to shit the house or listen to your. What cost said Julia Those are my daily I'll commute to work from Abu Dhabi wow, seventeen out of Abu dhabi into the of sway han new? I, where a teach a local swoop, my god, megan, business added growth and Julia, and I so much for you and often wish? I could teach kids teach my kids, the ideas you talk about One day in the future, you take a central role in uk politics. Yes, yes, you're right, I should probably be what probably hoped I might, and it should not be, prime minister, why why why you don't like admin

The several have happened in that job. Can I delegate that someone else leaves that you'll get annoyed, that we can't do that because of this I'd like what our laws are construct, yeah, that's right and ok, I will guess who's in charge. The law me. It sounds a bit like a dictator, nor do I guess fanatic enjoy because the central lessee's right this is it this garbage checks and balances, particularly with regards to my power to make sure it doesn't get out of control and fallible and vulnerable. I'm just like all the of a corrupt leaders you ever before. So there isn't make sure that I don't fall in those traps. Now we cannot the centralized power wherever possible, except where we need to come together to face up to globalist corporate tyranny, and I there we will unify anyone that works in public

It says you are going to be well paid. If you are a nurse, if you work for the military, if you were for the police force, you are going to be so well paid to remind you that you work for the citizens of this country and we are going to show you that we love you and you are going to show them that you love them. When you see a police officer, are you going to go high, is so lovely to see you because you're helping our community there will be no distinction between races and classes other than this distinction that you as individuals and the collective celebrate through your glorious culture we are coming together. To change the world to create a new vision to bring the glory back to this country, no more corruption and tyranny from elites, no more tax loopholes. This is your land. This is your life. Now let us tasted the glory together. Yeah. Do you get a wage clever paid back jobs outside of that like ease tunnel on core of paid for that you're not

my salary straight to the paypal, by to keep my channel thus our communicate hello, hello, everyone, fellow citizens, what we're gonna do today, you're have a radio in every home them That's mandatory antenna off that's on when I If I need to turn that on in the dead of night, it's like the alexa, you control everyone's hello. Everyone needs to issue me. Alexa welfare minister know what it is. We'd like to see pilot disbanded. Now you vote directly through various committees. every issue. You get your budget allocated to you with this we d sensualist is your money is not ass, light, listen, do Nice must have a defense budget. How much defense budget do you want an ad? You feel that you want to handle this issue. Do you want Lockheed martin, boeing, ive and all these contracts in the middle east? this, do you bring manufacturing back to these countries? Do you want a post work culture? The thing that, whereas in the next few weeks,

We learn more about post what culture one of our policies over the outcome. So thanks, due to the rifle? Let me go already got a call from that. Yeah we did. Did you see that it can be a compliment? If I had power anyway, white striped animal league anyway, then it goes onto huge and less interesting. This part that email also to jenny my fin one of my dreams, is to do an irish road trip around ireland. Well, what you mean an irish road trip around ireland, not sure Julia. Will, though it's a great communication, you driving through the desert, encouraging me to tycho for possibly the world has sadly drifted into. In an irish tripping, I maintain illogical stores logical because one of a kind of a trip could it be that its english people coming over doing and trip around on, and still I mean I, what would like an irish trip around the island, is yeah you're right. The only thing that would make another trip around the island is that the people doing it arrive, cause the person curating it. Alright, let's see what she says. Maybe this is Think you can talk more about a poker promote island territories.

and promote I'm over em you should come over is nicer than it was how much nicer to dublin It is a bit more metropolitan. There were even cosmopolitan but a covert elderslie. they'd side as well as more like european? Finally, whenever chile to ebay- and they know your persevere I had some wine and some personal comments are all under her severe. That's very good slighted, severe here you'll have it. It appears to be ill. I thought it on a relaxing break anytime. I have my best times. Socializing have been a northern probably with those guys, rather than just get sent in fat or in the video should he was this I don't know yet

There were you that no other way to cap. What do you want? What do you want? You can see journal the cart from an unambitious cassettes for in babies regarding why some sick, because you give one to dunno. If he didn't regard to now, we didn't give one to your crush. It's just a I will organize your boyfriend about? Oh he's have that one now you can only have what are you have sense, Boy friend then sell foreign. We're gonna die catches, but we have a sensible might be alone. If you just gotta face not because of betty com, love you deleterious, should not get that from from Gaza echoes what do you look for from a relationship laughter?

That's just what are some of the media that I mean. If I hadn't named me, comedian definition. Can we meetings as headlands insensitive but now if see, someone can make me laugh in it. That's the main most of the happiest, nothing you're happier showing it off and says properly you love may do Beyond the honest, Jim, You wouldn't be? You only become my favorite communities. I am your favorite comedian. If, if you set me up with Steve coogan cause, it won't be like a comedian competition, Jenny, turnout where Steve Cogan said it before an aesthetic, I've got to protect, stave Andy right now, mickey chambers says you're. Under the scheme forecast is world trade Jeanne thank you and your meditations are kept me going through a lot of nice in the last few months. Thank you for what you do. Thank you so much and that all of you listen to above the noise. Thank you are really really appreciate. You should be

isn't above the noise meditate should sign up to my awakening sa channel. You should come and see me next year alive, a hammersmith apollo. You can see me mock, I ellsbury ipswich and I'm in nyc all sorts of cool places glasgow edinburgh get yourself a ticket come sail. steamboats come say the owl bugger come see him Maybe they don't worry if journalists to be their awoke or five types and discount, Did anyone think Annabel with me. Now these couldn't be more different. Could you say a meaningless it's very generic headings that female female new, near Russell. About very antisocial, so people, hungary thought not even you very slightly more socially issue. Women, Someone asked me and was at the side door. I've done that? What would you have done? This idea given their nods- if not for me

irish, not well, recent romance message on board his family, I then surgeon right. This is the big commerce she's, pretty fast food. It like, like twenty percent of all people fast forward straight for this, Because I know now I sent for me I'm typhus pine for this crap. Eighty the icy visa adverts. yeah, they always agree. another not about what. Were not what I would do if I was in shock, I imagine they missed that you should go back and listen to that. Go back and listen to pit worthwhile through enough in charge is good here's your boss, trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of calgary nor successful. That's exactly right! We're in this era where it turns out. We were never works beneath the surface of people. We admire the ideas that the finance on the history and welcome to Russell grand under this scheme.

Welcome john bonds to under the skin. Like you very much looking forward to the abbey were to ever, since we have the channel mouthful podcast for boys nice. In luck, I'm a nay from reading a bit of a book of red level. Oh my god, this is gonna, be forlorn and, as I said to you in a previous conversation, the light I don't know when you went some a super famous and famous is an athlete. I suppose that comes with a love assumptions and given the nature of your work, perhaps I have unconscious assumptions about you based on you know less for this call it. What is re sooner well assumptions by by nature? I don't know what my unconscious and assumptions are, but nonetheless I was just very surprised by the depth, intelligence and intensity of the book, a lot to think that I'm not then, let's go about red mud, James board. When I love my malcolm X, thou know score enough? Like candy Andrews, a modern black academic thought carry around those kind of prejudices by love. What you're saying a little more like to buy your book? My is you talked about the complex

ratio, issues, the attempt to be reductive and to reduce it to a set of gestures and seem and in particular I am sympathetic to what you said about the white working class and the kind of tensions that being generated around ratio issues between the people, the hour of different crises, but leaving the same economic class have added you. get yourself omen of these of life's work, but tell me how you could, firstly, at the confidence to write this book and now that in our little bit, how is he knew and what you ve learned since the both come out Well, first mooted it's really send some fun, but once it is all about unkind, conditioning and can see just a bit about an aside, what was going on over the crickets, and he saw the cricketer armor seymour, talking about what he actually went through and then, as it turned out in terms of his, is treating about jewish people harm. So it is not a black and white situation because we all have eyes is based on what we ve been wrong it all. But for my old respect, it's particularly thinking it from a classic the board. The book is called uncover the truth about racism before the mentioned race and sell more books. Let's be honest,

but it really needs is equitable by discrimination. Unbiased, I'm alikes get middle class jamaican whose mothers family started. I helped to start the first to make a good results. After independence, her grandfather was our father. Sorry, or an unranked. Her uncle were imprisoned by the british position against crouch. That's really because it wouldn't be depend didn't kill anybody, but they were talking about independence. They were the first to make a government started. They broke away from the jamaican government to stop the first trade unions because they felt that a jamaica gum interest we latest as much as announced that comes with the fact that although the governmental gonna be like middle skin, can't even why jamaica's they saw that discriminated against working class, the black working class. It started the trade unions, so I was always brought up about from a young person bring up in jamaica thrust. De with lots of politicians and lots of arguments about what's right for the people. My family were an elite political family. They were on the side of the people

and always on the side of the working classes. Now this has got nothing to do with raised, but everybody's black, but that is how the did that the eye. Then the king came to differentiate between elites, non elite, middle class, working class and then back to light. It is the same thing it's about discrimination against people who you feel superior to sell them. England and then being the son of a diplomat, my father was a colonel in the army we lifted high giggles in hampstead, lived in mayfair, my son, my father shelter. So therefore, as much as I know, the black experience as a young black boy in london by friends, french council houses, I then experience that. and then, when I became a football at seventeen, I am now once again an elite pressure. So while there was racist abuse for footballist, then- and there was no conversation around- this is wrong. There's still some sympathy for us. So as I'm going down the holloway road on the on the coach for watford vs arsenal, I just happened to be awful fans, I'm not saying also if animal rights then what's the political fan. This is the way it was and

we will be greatly abuse me loose on the culture. Bananas will be thought, of course, but I'm having I also want anything lobster so, therefore, how about how about? How am I affected by that when I was affected what does I looked into the crowd of the hallway road? I saw average working class black people, courage in shops, hiding around corners so that they don't get abused. I've always felt weird speaking for them. It's. Okay, speaking for John Barnes, and now here we are forty years later attending a tie with how difficult it is for a footballer who are twenty one thousand.

It's a week, you can go to any nightclub. If you go to any restaurant, you could go to downing street, but because he gets abused on twitter, that a white working class person whose life that has shown any benefit of his of his white privilege at all, but were telling him that his life is better than that that black persons, like that black football, his life and from a white privileged perspective. What we have to understand at first what it exists. However, however white privilege, the the white working class doesn't benefit from his white privilege, doesn't matter if you're going to fight that she doesn't see it because he can't get a job can get a house. He lives in a council house, his kids go to a terrible school. So how can be tenants privileged? What we will say to him is that anything negative in your life It's not it's, not because you're white now that's the privilege, but that doesn't positively affect his life in any way, shape or form. So how can we explain to him how we tried to explain to him? He said: there's your white privilege every negative thing: you go through here's a millionaire for

we don't want you gonna week, I'll go go to downing street, he can go to the height of society and once a week before every now and again, a banana comes on the field. So therefore you are luckier than him. How can you empathize with that? What we should do, if you want to explain white privilege, said You know everything negative in your life that you go through, and you know that a lot of negative things, the black working class go through the exact same thing as well as having the added burden of being black now will be cost you the added burden of being black, and he says what they go through. What I go through I can in fact it that's. What we're trying to show them elite back people, elite, women, elite, gay people and then say that you know each other sexism homophobia, you can look it up a famous woman and utilise an example of objectives, and we should do look at the average woman and what she goes through, all the average gay person what they go through to then get better After amazing john, I one thinking when you say this first answer, but you ve obviously got

Ass by everyone, as a complex set of eid, then at pcs to their identity. But yours is a particular using set when you talk about in the section of class immigrants they s but hot, a kind of a high level immigrants they just because of the diplomatic component and is given you wouldn't want of immigrants, but that got positive for four years and I speak as a lot of black ethically thou africans. it's got a lot of black millionaire africans who are sending their jobs in here and we're being told to call for a black. We all have to feel blackness in the same way that rule disenfranchised and we are all discriminated against and our lives are terrible and that's not the It's a lot of us. We are fully what I wanna get from this is that you are talking about the complete a and the nuances, but are in any case any individuals, identity, by high in and promote in its certain aspects of it or simplifying reducing identities in patents and blocks. It's going to create dvd

and and am beginning to wonder if that is a deliberate ploy, a deliberate plan to create division, to create social division when, when it isn't, when it isn't necessary. Now, a lot of stuff you write about You agree what you say about classed as one area of identity that seems to continually be excluded. Did ease the glass? Is that clear, continually like you just take a recent example in this country or from america. The trump situation people couldn't vilify white working class people quick enough, even identity aware like about public, opinion. I am commentator kindness. I lacked gammon staff and shame with varying glenn flags outside their asses in doncaster or hall, yo lou nor graze, where I'm from in her letter, and I think that that creates more

the division, more opposition, and I can see how that's an accident joan like guinness of working class people of any color any religion, any sexual identity, gender identity, or got more in common with one another than they absolutely elite. Absolutely it is, it is it is, it is deliberate, it is deliberate because we have told the white working class is the reason for your discontents are the immigrants so therefore, in the seventies, black people coming to take your jobs, picky jobs on the buses and now they're coming to take your your your benefits and they're, taking up your council houses, while the white working class,

say is let them have the shitty benefits of city council houses because we demand for for ourselves, but they don't. They go yeah you're right instead of demanding more for themselves. They say you're right, they're, they're, now taking our little shitty benefits and shit council houses. So the overt nature of racism is perpetuated by the working copy that football fans and then what happens is after they've created this division. By saying, because look at look who's voting tory, you know you talk about. First of all, the the the the people who who voted UKIP were labour voters to begin with. Then they voted UKIP. Now they vote tory

which is which is crazy, because they have convinced that they've convinced them that the reason for their discontent and the reason for everything negative like is for the immigrants, then what they do is when we have to then cancel sack come down hard on someone. We then use a black elite by creating these people within institutions to them come up with like lie. For example, he got the commission for racial disparity with dr tony sewell, so they use a black man to them. Come up with with the a report as to whether that any any any racial bias, then, when he then says there is no racial bias, systemic racial bias,

what other black person we can't complain. So that's what we are small. We offer a black, a black man to put it up position to make the decisions, and then he says, but there are racist incidents now that's interesting because there's no systemic racism, racism or racial bias, which means that the system there's no race, the systemic racism it but their racial incidents. Now one of those racial incidents, twitter football already have a working class person doing something, therefore they're now being criticized rather than the system. So therefore it Liberal ploy to divide and conquer, because what has happened is that, as you rightly say, the white working class have more in common with black people with women with everybody else, and when media, for example. This is obviously from a female point of view, then put a headline saying two years for rape but five years for throwing a statue in the river and of course women are going to go the black, like matter, people again giving more than we are getting. What about us? What about setting out the binding? I saw you nobody, there,

unaids old, what has been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years that were not aware of it was interesting that part of your history is the history of imperialism and colonization been jamaican englishman. What we know know no outer describe anymore so complex. In jamaica in england, in your national identity, sunlight. The other, like also has a massive like football up. One of the best football is a few generations on the best footballers. These countries Today's outcome, you ve, not been homogenized internet, sank stuff, like this. You know like when you got stuck in with the amazing thing leonardo, got it like. That became one of those moments that the culture budget he's from time to time, limb mason space andy's. I was incredibly candid. Something and create I real for raw and unnoticed one of the people that spoke about that because of the five young black men. You are able

speak about it in a way that other people wouldn't how come you're willing to do that and stay with regard to that particular instant. What do you think that was really about? But because I have to because I have to be true to myself ever since I was young, I can't do because, of course, I've been offered positions and in an instant

editions, but of course you then have to throw the party line as perfect. A thema said that he knows so. Many people are now being offered positions in these institutions to shut them up, but we, as black people, say no. We want those positions and institute, of course, we'll make it better. Now we are wrong. He is right once you get into an institution, you have to be carefully point the finger at so the liam Neeson situation. I listened to the context and the nuances surrounding that you have to listen to the whole context. That's what I actually meant the first telltale sign. The first tells a tale sign of what that was about was the question. The question to the amnesia was: has revenge? Film was about revenge he talking about. He still has revenge ever played a negative part in your life. Thus the question has he played a negative parts in your life? There you go. He said. Yes, he pay a negative parts of my life because one week for one week in the seventies, when my cousin

wait by black guy. I wanted to kill any black person for one week. He said after a week I was horrified and disgusted with the way I felt I went to the priest. I sought help. I was introspective and I never had that again. We didn't hear that all we heard was, I wouldn't kill a black person. So that's why they came down hard on him now, if anybody now with the way that can't talk about, but why did he want to kill a black person? Is it should have been about whatever we can't judge, because we're not in that situation now can anyway common hop is honest conversation not about killing a black person, but if you're, a woman and you're walking down the road into black and some black youths come towards you, you feel uncomfortable. You grip, your handbag, you cross the road. Now, that's not wanted to kill a black person, but that is still because a negative perception of that black of black people. Now. Can she, a conversation after what happened in these enough, because you're gonna get cold racist amplified and the council, so we can have an honest conversation and by the way we have been coming to think because, as soon as you mention, what is the way you feel you gonna get council. Now

I have a conciliation like the hattie. Rwanda is not just about the victims, it's about the people who actually did it coming forward and saying listen. This is what I did, but I was conditioned to do it. I was forced to do it. I was wrong, so please don't want to kill me you're constantly. Let us now move forward together in our country. We are not doing that. I think, as long as you keep your mouth shut, doesn't matter what you think you'll get away with it and we wait for the ones to get caught point the finger at them and then convince ourselves that everything else is ok apart from the ones who get thought yes, because that's what's happened is as well isn't. It is like that the racism that exists is the result of cultural conditioning How true conditioning thousand take place in the minds of individuals? It takes place necessarily in the culture in society lenny individuals act out on that occult duration benda the changed his mind now cause it's convenient and Gaza, the individuals, the individuals Well I say what I say: I say you don't people are worried about my job. I thought it was. A kind of people exist, we're gonna have a little baby, don't

you got a south africa is a group of people caught it and you can call them coloured and he can't hold them black in no way. You can call people back so that the context and the intent is much more important, then the language that use and if you're from a particular time you use a particular type of language, then that they intend to deport. If I take it, if the people now who, whatever they want to call them now, rehab days now and different kinds of groups of people. Now, in thirty years' time, when that language changes are you then going to say, or what about when you are now in your sixties- are people that are going to counseling psych you, because you're used to saying a particular thing, so intent is always the most important thing, not the language yes, what a spot your promote and then John an open, ongoing conversation that affords redemption forgiveness. And I hope a kind of them would honour site good. A good five conversation where the games,

vengeance judgment vengeance judgment, but a solve a kind of a collusion in order. Every solution will that's a part of it. The biggest part of it is to change the perception of blackness. Take the perception of what it is to be female tradesmen stretch of what it is to be gay traceable. Second, what is to be no them and not to change the perception of an elite black person, an elite woman, an elite gay personally northern up and believe that we are now moving forward because we have let you could dispositions for that assent for long periods of time. Now what will happen?

once we change the perception of the average black person, the average woman, the average gay person, the average northerner, the average irish person. What have you want to say disenfranchised roots? What will happen to that group of people is that for the majority of them they will be in the exact same place that they are, but they won't be there because they're black, because you're a woman, because they're gay, because you're northern they'll be there because, as human beings, we have this innate quality to wake up, work and work harder than all the people to to to to be clever in terms of what modern ideas of being clever are in the last four hundred years, and- and we have so lazy. People who thought it off by the equality. Equality doesn't exist. We want and equal opportunity, but we believe in what kind of a black respected that what we have equality all black people would be brilliant, happy, prime minister's be rapid decisions, and without this I'm here but exactly why that doesn't work. Look at the white working class because

We live in a white society that rules the world why they somebody white, poor people are disenfranchised and that has got nothing to do with raised that has to do with once natural ability in terms of how we do not have a built in this day and age, which isn't particularly right anyway. But that's the way it is what we as black people or women, feel that once we have equality, all women will be equal. All black people be equal, but we will just be like white society, where the vast majority of us will still be exactly where we are yes, but not because we're black or not, because we're gay or not, because we're female. Yes and of course, I saw a structured like one does require that a significant percentage of the population lives within a certain economic category. There isn't the opportunity for a vast catherine, human, centralized and pooling resources in a certainty, arbitration groups and elites and we're not gonna redress that so you can see why the conversation is continually directed towards tokenistic gesture based politics in because that year, old I can afford, is just

is because if you do anything other than gestures, you start to affect the interests of the powerful. This is why I always think when I see these things and like why I am interested like when like you sell for less ferdinand comes out, says well, what's coming home with this particular movement, because I I'm not allowed to be a participant in that sounds, yonder, certainly the families movement. From my perspective, the right right, they say yeah because that's how is all being set up in this really. What we want is for people with good in ten and good fight at the able to participate in conversations together with their that that we own a lot the we ain't get nowhere if we're biased and prejudiced and bigger it, and there's note that in the time when you were playing football, the paper parry, not in a pretty appalling. Why and that kind of stuff goes on steel data that I believe can be resolved through education, and good. Will you can trains? That's what you ve meaningfully changes you keep saying the experience of the average working class

percent of any color unless you're willing to restructure society, and there is no willingness to restart all you do. All you do is create more elite no more elite. Women morally take people to join the elite and the vast majority of people who continue to be this enfranchise because doing it from the top down always done now. I say this to you from the bottom up going you from the bottom up my change. The perception of the rise of the robot person would engage person whatever would have many more to it. They have those qualities and they have that innate ability to rise out of that negative space that decide to see some. There will be many more people, because if you can create respect, but unity for the average that person, the brilliant black people, it'll it'll, follow that they will be given opportunities as well in fuel, because you have changed a perception of what black is now what you, what you, what will never happen on his never happen is by changing your perception of the brilliant black person, and then it filters down

the center of the average black many bricks have, because that has never worked in hundreds of years got. You bought a brilliant black people, women, gay people for hundreds of years, elevating themselves out of the negative space to make her a life for themselves and people like them but now we're talking about, but now it's random. They convinced the masses, the working classes that you're doing that in their interest. but they're not doing it in there just because we're doing it the wrong way. How do this aspect of it that you spoke of a moment ago of changing perception? How do you see that component being handled how we have to do that is dismantling? Why you bill?

in hierarchy, the first big speed race, gender. Because of the light that have been told the hundreds of years about a black person to build the think, a gay person, because the fighting a war on women's ability to lead a fortune five hundred companies- this is how we have been condition to think. So we have to dismantle what we have learnt out of budgets is difficult because it we have learnt it unconsciously subliminally, and we continue to learn it even today through the media. So even if you want to do it through education, but the meagre every single day you reach towards us, if you see headlines like brooklyn grooming dax, you don't hear christian grooming gangs, jamaican yachty drug dealers, you don't hear whites athena's. So therefore it gives us a it's implants in our in our subconscious negative perceptions, not just drug dealers of groomer but also of jamaicans and nigerians. So this is how it's a it's a very difficult thing to do, because this society and the environment we live in is continually conditioning us to think negatively about different groups. I got off the train the other day used to, and I thought I got off the train at you said the other day I heard a conversation between

I'm a foreman and a worker and the form former actually be set on the dunno. What the conversation was the foreman actually said. All I heard him say was that was a very northern attitude. To have now annoyed was the compliments, but there you see, we have a perception of people up north. That's got nothing to do with race. That has to do with the perception we have of northerners. When I first came to england, I didn't know that irish people are supposed to be thick right. Nineteen, seventy six! You hear about irish, jokes patty, always obviously brothy and I have a condition because, all of a sudden, I thought to tell the irish jokes Johnson never met an irish person, but I knew about sick irish people, of course they're not, but I'm thinking about how we condition I think so. This is what we have to do. We have to dismantle what we have actually learned. I don't feel we address it and it and say: yes, we are unconsciously, biased or we're biased, consciously, nothing will change. All that will happen is we'll wait for someone to get caught, who can't keep his mouth shut like when we watch a football match and a female referee comes on and the vast majority of men think about it will be better, but they say nothing. One idiot shouts out- and everyone goes yes he's the problem. Let's get rid of him,

what the other men think the exact same thing. So what we're doing this society for teaching people how not to get caught and also, I think, been summit you touched on before you- with the learning. The correct words in our like that again is about gestures and symbol, robert and changing the yacht fell, experienced reality could surely what one ultimately is for people to be able to deal with. Videos and communities from a place of honesty, openness and love. Not like not this is we never say that and never do this. Never do that. Why you sky, loving changes, but what is not over so don't sit on from our perspective on the back respect, we'll, be doing it the wrong way. What we ve been saying for these four years is that I don't care how you see me. I care how you treat me. That's what they said

from a black the spectacle, and it should be all the way around to the ten. Why? Because from the american civil war after the methods of war, black people, the boat black people in the senate, because white, northerners Dwight northerners one or two disenfranchised invent french I'd. Why southerners to get more out of themselves? So they used a black boat to get more power, but they recognise that every light with enough to get in bed with our white southern brothers eventually softer twenty thirty years after the reconstruction, they went back to Jim crow laws because all elderly they need the white house that are used to this in front of them because they never ever contemplated seeing that people's equal from. Thomas jefferson, any of them and george well, George Washington, said but from thomas jefferson to the the president who got killed, but everything has been assassinated, lincoln name lincoln, that they never ever thought like the pro he called they may have thought it was wrong to enslave them an episode every week or so passing laws isn't going to

Do anything because passing law, as you can always find ways around the laws? Now why I say what was it says, I don't care how you treat me a care? How you see me now why I say that is because you say that the people build all, because I don't care how you how you see now are you treat me is short term and it is sustainable, because, after a while of having to treat people equally, there are always going to be ways around you treated him and he could he would it not being illegal because you can change the law, you can change situations whereas if you do it the other way round, I don't care how you how you treat me. I care how you see. People then go you don't care about treat you will continue to treat you unequally, but I'll work continue as equal and, as time goes by and signals equal, I'm treated unequally, senior was equal. I'm seeing with more equal eventually, when I try to use equal there'll, be no longer necessary for me to put in place to treat you as equally

because I see was equal. I love that John, but we're doing it dont way round, love that, because essentially ought to talking about spiritual change, robin and administrative and bureaucratic. I literally because s very emotional, psychological james. We see them as equal. So therefore, I'm not gonna teach all equally good to see you as equal because, like any in america like and I'm not sure, if, like a lot of our audience, is american or more of what I'm saying is. Is that obviously the racial question is the fulcrum of that is in that country because of the history that we've already mentioned and alluded to, like both coastal countries have their own dynamic by light europe alike? obviously. You only need to look at the statistics around, like economics incarceration addiction, dick gotten to save our wilder legacy. That history is still diana flight near, I tell you can sort, let's keep the sport roomy rule the rooney chamber came in because in american football, where got more than fifty percent sixty percent black oblast, there were three black.

Just so. The renewal taken place, probably twenty five to ten years ago, but only three black coaches. Here we all twenty five years later, how many black coaches three Notable gradual just now so there We are our in place for that, but until you start to change our perception as asked his capabilities, you you can be forced even give him a job or even interview, but are always gotta ways around after you know how to work the system of, because you don't see them as equal and you don't think that they have that intelligence to then go back to treating them unequally. Yeah yeah yeah, I feel you, I feel you and if you have a fun, because there's no law, there's no talk about incarceration, but there there is no law about putting more black men in prison. In fact, they live in an equal society, don't they but the whole black people, for example black women being dying in hospitals when they have babies. They live in an equal society because they still don't see them as equal. Yes, yes, without this fundamental psychic change,.

These fundamental change perception? There can be no meaningful change. A few things I'd like to hone in on one thing is like what people You re been I'm what thinkers a? U following five influence you beyond lightly. There can your personal conditions that you described- and I am also interested in cause it's out by few mushroom, followed way: exceptional paypal and set their kids the exception. When I remember when we tried even on a football podcast, I think you said let your grandparents were like made for falco. Second, crises and that we want our kids debate to be in things and stuff like that. What does want? We are glad that role in unrolling father side yeah, so by the roles of the individuals in your family and then not the cultivation of these philosophies and these ideas and you you person, young education, there I am not in the tobacco industry to hand you over to any of the real revolutionary I'm going to have lunch with them. Actually anybody thought was over from america apparently, so we could meet up with. Definitely gonna beat up

I can depict but hindi, the real revolutionary and, and I'm a little bit more conservative than that. I believe in everything actually says, but I also understand that this is not the world that world can't exist, unfortunately, and from the from a real socialist point of view as much as that, what we really want and that that that that that context, because of the which I have. I think we've gone too far in terms the man's greed, which we've shown throughout any revolution has turned into. When I mentioned him. The revolution in jamaica, where my mother's family had to turn away from the government because as much as it was fairly socialist- and it was then a new government and in independence he actually understood that they were still going to discriminate against the against the working class, and that has happened for a thousand years. So this is nothing new

and I think we ve gone too far because of globalization, and you can look what happens if any later. That is when it could be a wonderful country in terms of the people were really want on it, but also one that I have a question where american and at the west can actually put sanctions on you, so that you can't, when you consider what you wanted and then stated, people see their running the country down, because they therefore- and you know the people can't eat, because not because of any way to venezuela are allowed to do what they do have the more more than anybody else. Dwell like some might sound is obviously allow it to be done to them to be controls at ever. You cannot fruitful, they are so I dont think,

at some candies point you're. From our point of view, we can have that kind of a red rubber, a revolution and I just read a lot of individual. But what I do like to read is a lot about an Angela sino. I like white people who write books on white fragility and stuff like that, because they understand what is necessary. So I don't follow any particular person or like individual books that I read and so ah yeah, I'm not I'm not that deep, I think at the ready nor by the consciousness of of of office and stuff. Like that, I just like a lot of individual books, seaweed candy and drawn out yeah. I chat to candy a la reason I like him is because he is our core because he's not into gestures and bow in my conversations became the. I get the idea that he's actually almost segregationist in the and they aid like the paw of Kahin project, is the reclamation of the continent of africa, a kind of like

a home, coming about the black nation kind of what do you think of leyla black, nationally and stuff but then you can't have that, because africa has never been one nation. You know I forgot forget white people. Africa has never been one nation, in fact nevermind africa. Nigeria has never been one nation and no african countries that exist today that had ever been one nation. So this idea of pan africanism let us about after independence. The groom already wanted that, because you then fell that black people from together. But the history of africa has never been one of one of wonders and, of course, jamaica. They started talking about independence as well as having a pan caribbean government whereby all people, I get that, but we discriminate against each other jamaicans and trinidadian on beijing. So we we are not want people very much like europe is of all people- france, ITALY, germany, have been fighting each other for thousands of years. So why do believe? Because we're black and because we have this history of

colonialism or imperialism, which really only lasted for three hundred years, if that that'd be then believe that we are all going to come together, because we are not so idealistic cli even ideologically, it doesn't make sense because white people aren't together. So why should black people just because they're black all feel that we are homogenous? So I missed that one to go from a from a and, of course, when he talked to get hindi, because, of course, you know Malcolm Malcolm x, Martin luther king he's not a big fan of nelson mandela. Read that these are people we love, because those people understand Ben nelson mandela and martin luther king and I spoke to. I did an interview with nelson, then in ninety six. I went to his house with him for two years and estimate that I said my biggest challenge I want to know has to happen. Is I bought to convince white people that they'd have to stay and help us? I have to convince white people because they have to help us from the country. They know how to do it. We've never done it before, and he understands that, unlike mugabe, if you do what should be the right thing to do, we are black. We should our country we're taking it all, but we're taking all the land we're going to take the farms that he would not be allowed to do that

will be like zimbabwe's now so you'll have to compromise as much as it may be wrong, but you have to suppose that's more what I'm talking about rather than looking at autonomy or revenge, or we just really have to be all back together, also idealism, some suggest that there is a way for us to overcome these conditioned prejudices that have been ingrained and lead. Of course, people front from one another, but I feel that that difference takes place individually beyond their any cultural categorization that takes place so, yet ass. I went out through traffic in the imo way suicide it will come on mate. Well by me, I'm alright, like the underside like a yeah, he would enjoy that. We chat about him. I know, but also we have to be truthful to ourselves from a black perspective, because if you look at there there there once again the nuances and complexities behind life. discrimination. If you look at slavery, for example, the two aspects, the flagrant there is

the slave trade and their slavery, slavery in america was on white supremacy. The slave trade had nothing to do with it. Why supremacy the slave trade was an elite group of white people, an elite group of black people working together to enslave all the black people. We have come stop petting black people, white people came in this latest raft is not doing that. Yes, they're the ones who paid they're the ones who bought us, but we were captured, were enslaved. The vast majority of us were enslaved by other black people and they were our own people. The different tribe didn't teach all. Those black does not mean you're, not sending your brother that idea of black at once again Madness, the next stations. Don't like unsteady, my black brother, you are the enemy black and albany. The person does the white elite so we're going to do business, I'm going to get guns, I'm going to get well, somebody get whatever. I have to get. What what on? What what undermined africa? What's colonialism? Not

I agree. Slavery was an elite act by two elite. People wanted to get rich, that's what it was england. You talk about barbados now you know, Baba is now going to be a republic, the the the the the british people who were the slave traders, if the british government, these were individuals, the british, the british army, the british government didn't engage in slavery. Once you got onto the high seas, they would have protected the slave from the french because, of course it's Oregon france, but the british government and enslavement if these were private individuals. These are private individuals, so once we understand the nature of or the difference between slavery and the slave trade and the amount of africa, guinea. Prime minister, the first one and the guindy presidents when he went to america, he got on a disease, I'd like to back americans. I say we solved, you he's the only one who is really acknowledge that fact, because at that meeting we like the idea of why people companies like there's an old black people became disenfranchised colonialism is something,

really paying attention to colonialism of africa in eighteen, g when all of a sudden, the scramble for africa with Britain, france and Portugal, spain and the belgian congo, which was just kingly? well, don't leave them. That was really what really caused racism. Slavery was not about the slave trade. Would not immigration by economics death, the the colonization of africa? There isn't enough enrages already started because you that happen convinced everyone else that, because of the enlightenment period, when almost a man's You bet your rights of being discussed met from a wider perspective. How can you and save another human being uk? because we all have individual right there before that. Even the white working class then think about your own individual rights and forty fifty six essential then, when man's individual rights that we discussed. How can you say, enslave another person? You then have to come up with his narrative, not just inside

how can you conquer somebody their own land and do what you do? Take the other, I'm kill them. You have to come up with this now that they are inferior to us, I'm talking about wholesale slave, who was captured but off again and no matter how many slaves were taken staged to the new world. There were millions, billions, millions more who are left behind and when colonialism started, you then have to prove to britain and france average person that we have to go and colonizing places, because these people are less than us the white worsening that never solve slaves, they don't know anything about slavery. All they saw what goods that came from America, which were the first the slavery, then it was only by people. They didn't know what was going on. So the average working person was not racist at that particular time, the invisible hand of economics he's ever present in these ideas and what we have presented in terms of narrative of these distinctions around I bow and biological difference which I think for forty five, the differences and conflict with ever addressing the source of the problem and its

Colonialism was the corporate trans national trans national, globalist project of its time, in the same way that big tech now functions. Big now functions and then again, narratives create to prevent new, seeing what what's happening, things that we describe as problems rice, m purvey, whether these are not problems. If you are in a position of power, these our power of the maintenance of the systems required for power to function as it does, and this I think whip presented with phony solutions, phony he meant that's not to say that there are no, why working class racism. A lot- and I mean I'm from essex in other these things- but we know now why those things exist. I exist because our people a tool to think that what we are in absolute, you know like. Maybe this is apocryphal Jonathan. I well what you ve got to say about this, but the idea that like in a first level wind rush type times like these reports that, like the imf,

it's a scar on punk and the first skin it working class movement were all black pre down with what was going on like the immigrant down unique we're in a great in until it, but the antiquity is these issues became politicize is something you care about now about. Well, for ourselves in the nineteenth century makes us thirteen years all relevant. Fourteen fifteen us all up a buckskin ethanol, a sort of setbacks gets going around it. It's about music, art museum, in jamaica. I don't know about punk white punk. I don't anything about the battle. These are strange people because I'm told that an apple front rolls in it, but I see black people eating them, skinheads, listen to ska, music, and so once again it became politicized. And once again you started telling these people that too many black people come home and take a job software they're, going to turn against them.

But, ultimately, when you talk about race- and we know- and if you really want to get scientific about it, race doesn't exist. That genetics will tell you, because if you look at, if you look at black east africans, some black east africans- lots of black east africans are genetically closer to white northern europeans than they are to black west africans, not the gene that makes them both black, but in other ways. So if we are made up more than ninety, seven percent of our genes are similar. Why are we focusing on a the three percent that makes it similar and even less than three percent, which is just the color of our skin? Now the gene that makes me back of your wife is the same gene that gives a white person blue eyes and another wife, not the same gene, but a similar at the exact,

is not the same gene, but it is just a gene that can give a white person blue eyes and a white person brown eyes. So why don't they, then? Why do they then used as a marker of race, the race of the blue eyed people or the brown eyed people or the race of the whatever else? Why is color used as a marker? Why can I have to be some awkward race with because then you then got to a situation whereby you can dominate, exploit and slay, but more exploit up about a group of people who look completely different to you. So I want you, can't, dominate and exploit a group from a white perspective. The brown eyed white people, if you're blue eyed, because they're too close to us and once you talk about men's individual rights, like us, but there's no difference between black and attended. The biggest example of that was, I don't even remember, you're, probably too young to remember the film rachel wells tells ten thousand bc. When have you ever seen it? I do cause a wreck. Ocean advocate rachel. After all, remember as a young boys and of course what you did have with both of them are white, but one was dark, skin and dark

and the other one blue eye and the blue eyed blond haired ones were more intelligent. So even if you look at that perspective of both whites, but you have a perception of a particular group being more superior and if you have to think about before the tenth eleventh twelfth century, the white northern europeans were the barbarians and it's interesting because of the narrative that you can create to enhance so the defy your narrative, depending on whether you are the rule as it wanted demoted shutting off for me other meander thoughts, because, of course at the end of the matter is they were inferior, does why they were wiped out. They were crew, they were, there are strong and physical, but they recruit. There were unintelligent doesn't, but we didn't know that get enough of that in mixed with modern. Here, and, of course, in uganda, footwear from europe, and there is now in the last ten to fifteen years. There has now detected that beyond the blood netherfield dna aryan europeans nor forwards narratives,

page asked about is what made them superior would have been a lot more than four. If you're, the ethical emphatically says that europe can gather. Tat was a negative connotations when you thought there were different race, but now that white people, why just die too knows that lots of them in europe at the end of the innate is now changed that that's. Why we're empirical, because at the end of a dna in us fantastic. What are you? What do you think about, like activism within spore and show business calling copernican how do you feel like the ideological stance and the bravery and thou be my assumption that they would have taken for an athlete stand, stand up or kneel down, as was literally specifically the case. How do you think that becomes compromised overtime and convert it into something that perhaps doesn't have the same fry or, if you By free, I mean ability to change the way. People feel why people think what most most in most cases of activism,

revolutionary revolution starts in the writing within the right for the right reasons, calling cabinet toronto work for on about started the meeting movement because of sexual, he's the younger than the inner cities it quickly became about. Millionaire hollywood accident hobby Wednesday and that's what we think. That's all it's about. Now, Colin kaepernick cabinet, he took me for once again: police brutality, injustice in the initiative. And then taking the knees now about just a millionaire american football is right to take any another assault. Doesn't dust? I was searching now about even taking the d here in england. The conversation is why we're taking many the conversation is: shall we take the knee? Yes, should we take the knee know why we take the money? I don't know or don't care. What should we do? A guest pass into the caught down the line in the champions league for the last thirty years and thumb that has anything changed, because it then becomes a gesture. There's no tangible change following it up now actively the great depends what it depends on, whether you who you pointing the finger at mentioned, the

the crickets are talking about cricketers be given positions in institutions, because as much as we are now taking the knee for white working class football fans who are racist against them or hungarian football fans, you know who thor but on on the field, and they are inconsequential to what's going on. Read nice in inner cities, kids, not being given opportunities, a hungarian fan or white racist football fans or thoughts have been out on the field, has got no control over that. But that's who we're targeting. However, I don't hear one footballer taking a dancing rather black managers or where all the asian they're more asian, pakistani and indian people, but no black football. Talking about why, on that football wandered about managers, what you're taking me for is against white working class and saw something on the deal. Now you look at you. Look at how the end I see without allies. That's what we always talk about our allies. How can you get an ally and you look at what won't happen after the euros when those white blacklist missiles penalties, and we talk about how terrible it was not empathy for them and the next day, they're on a private plane

we're going to Ibiza drinking champagne and saying how sorry that lives there and you expect the white working class person to empathize with that so and and society and the hierarchy are quite happy for that to be done, because nothing in fact why they happen. For that to be done is because we are doing their job for them. We keeping the status quo exactly where it is with no meaningful change, rather than what will happen a black elite footballer made them not get abused or you may get a position on the board, but nothing will change for the masses as long as we keep doing it this way. Yes, the function of it is to maintain. They have to keep it continually in the realm of gesture, never in the area of real change and there I suppose there Many call pronouncement markets rush. It will use this voice to talk about underprivileged changes, not black, and he puts used his voice decision to change, government attitudes and government policy toward school dinners for underprivileged kids. Imagine that in one week was changed so imagine if the bodies that are using their voices,

there is an outbreak orban on other feel to use it for projects in the project and talking about real equality, and that's why this conversation about someone talking about real racism and a black person was discussing What do you mean railway races of racism? Is racism, races, withal racism racist incidents of bananas coming on the field and the of racism. Racism affects black people every day of their lives, the jobs they go into, or women or gay people every other life job. They go to the houses, they live in the schools, their kids go to racist incidents. elite black people whereby, in between being a millionaire on the way to the front of the queue and where the downing street article on the field later racist incidents and there's a complete separation, we have to have a separate separation between that. There are lots of racial incidents and that's why the commit operation with the pirates- he said, yes, there's no systemic racism, but there are racial. Racial incidents- yes, it's both. What is more important for the tackle is the systemic racism or systemic bias towards women, as well, rather than these incidents, and all that

he's focusing on incidents? Yes, so that you're right John, the focus has to become about racism, not racist incidents, because when you cite these examples, they you know are appalling examples of racism, the bananas, the cliched old school racism. If the attention is turned solely onto that, you can get people to pretend not to be racist fro bananas socio go you did it be consequences for you, but really what you want as you size of people to see that they see the absurdity too I recognize. The connection between us remember when, like an american for american audiences to unpack a little bit when the have to take a knee came over to a uk festival when, notably in the game mill, will played, I'm not sure who is against. There was like booing when the taking a knee happened and if one of the things I'm not sure. If I heard you talk about John but had people saying what,

No, that that some of the black lives ma protests in our country has focused on what may be best creation of monuments connected light they may live in a tower. Winston churchill, like is united. some degree, much loved historical figures, of course, as well: blood, there's the boers and love heaviness and love. Clearly the black lives, MA movement had connotations outside of racial equality. Some of the wye working class people, bridging the blame at millville. What did you think about the way I was handled, and what do you think about how these movements, wherever it, Where is not black lives, ma movement or man that trump credit? This cure non trump style thing at the capitol? How do you think these movements can get past the pitfalls, that of division and start to become kind of unified?

Well, a lot of people then then use it for their own aid for their own ends. You know so black lives matter to be his attack. What it s like live matter, but it is just black lives. At the very end of story. A lot of people look at it differently. A lot of people think black lives matter. Movement is about stats, it's about taking nice about different things and then a lot of people quite disingenuous in terms of them using marxism as an excuse for not liking black lives matter. And if people understood marxism, it is transform the majority of working class people would be marxist, because it's about that. So when people talk about funding bodies, marxism is about defending police, marked marxism, it's about poverty and if there's no poverty, there's no crime, don't cry, you don't need any police officer or police. That's not the point. You can use it in whichever way you want to to to to fight for your own narrative, and that is why I'm not interested in different groups capturing it one way or the other to say the black eyed muttered movement, I dont because about they want to defend the police. I do because they want to do that.

They want to do that so don't compensation of other people, I'm just really looking it from individual prospect If in terms of you looking at yourself and say, do you discriminate? Yes? Why do I discriminate? Why discriminate because of the rapid condition? How can I stop discriminating? First of all drove a thousand steps starts with the first step, the first step. First, what it like, the teutonic consideration. Miranda I was guilty. I was involved wild involved out its weight. You can come together. But people just look for ways around it. So the talk about that. To give an example, we talk about you, don't the gestures and passing so you know, is not allowed a football match anymore to do what he should be able to do that football matches. You can't do that anymore I can't do that anymore sign when you come to take authorities a black there, I'm gonna do that scratch my armpits. Now, if you call the police or cholera, and I come over to be undergoing state monopolies on my arm, my army, dispatching. Is it illegal to scratch my armpits? Now we know it

But that's on illegal. Is it let's make up its catching illegal? Ok, we'll do when its ever come back. I guess about we'll all be: is it illegal to boot? No right will make going legal, we'll try. My problem is always gonna, be something I can do so. That is why my things about changing the perception of me so they don't have the inclination to do it in the first place. Now, just like the cricketer, it's not just about black. Looking at white, it's about us all, kill ourselves about how we truly feel. How do I feel as a young middle class not now because of obviously been introspective I've grown, but as a young thirteen year old boy growing up in jamaica playing football with the black working classes? Who were my best friends because I'm a footballer and I played football in jamaica in frenchtown in tivoli gardens? These are some rough areas and I played with all of the boys, because that was the bodies working passport. Now with any one of those boys come into my house for dinner, come into my house to meet my parents know because, of course we should all unconscious in my head. I am superior.

because I'm middle class? I might skin disturbing provision to think so other my friends gonna play with them. They're, not my friends in iraq with you, but I have to bring them home for dinner, uneven and either, and but am I racist? No because I'm black and they're black- and this is what I'm talking about- we all have to admit our bias and we all have. But we don't. We just wait for someone to get caught point the finger at him and convince people that everything is okay. Sometimes I feel- and I say it on my shows- that what we need to look at is a simple sesame street values, kindness. Ah, you are kind p person all you seeing people with kindness, because if

la behaving kindly, then you will recognise that it is not grind to treat people badly for arbitrary reasons, regardless of whether what color there about whether their women- so I think, is a very simple theoretical solution to the problem. Changed the perception of blackness femininity, gay northern trace out deception. Now, wants you chase up perception? You may still not like some black people, not like some women feel superior to some black people, feats of appearances, some woman, but he walked we because our back on Gaza could you ginger Bogdanov that now to feel that, if you try to perception of that, you betsy everybody has equal is not real, because someone I never attempted to do whether they be back. I don't be better from a small sum up from a supercilious point of view, but in the nature of where we are now, I may feel superior to somebody

what about a dance around I've done by more intelligent each other? What because it tends to be now, but as it should be based on color, race, religion, jirga, geography, but I'm all we deny it, though those goals I'll call him quantities. Those characteristics are still detrimental to a lot of people because it get the protection we have of those those characteristics I want to get rid of that will still hate people will filthiest, If you went to people, but it won't be because of those characteristics, then we can work on the other pigs that we can become truly equal, John cross. I sort of asked you this last time when our chatbots, well sure I was able to completely convey what I meant given that you operate on this level, intellectually, what was it like being in the culture of football, which my prejudice tells me, people ain't chatting about this stuff, suggesting that your tea mesa Wofford Oliver bore newcastle were racist. we may not like. I don't know at times swimming than they were. In other words, what there was racing devised and sexes as everybody else there when he listens to anybody else,

but not all of them. But what about london, whereby the entire like that and about intellectual stuff, because my guess is that if your hanging out there in the changing rooms there or likely, even when you're socializing, where were you have in these, the type of trap we talk about cultural policies and all that way you reach into about love with what will ever have these conversations? What I did have was one of lines with them, but as soon as these lines started, they got shot exactly what it's about to get pissed. If you don't have the conversation very much like Gary Lineker reminded of a conversation I had with him in ninety ninety, because of course, as the narrative is even now, when you have black friends, you go yeah yeah, I'm not ready to bicyclists have a black friend I need my mates. I'd have voted for obama and all that kind of stuff. I have even jerry. You got you tweet. It reset all does fancy ass. He is still going on about what did he say Tom, the average man, the average man being racial revised, because I say to them: they talk about it.

In the lobby. I used to say you love me, because you know me and I'm your friend that doesn't mean that you view all black people to say because you're convinced that you've moved backward. Let's say because you like me a loser, they feel they have no rachel buys, but that's not the case. So I haven't conversations with them, but of course as footballers we're not going to get you in a deep and meaningful way. So I really had these conversations with myself, because once you have that conversation with them because, for example, they will then talk about back then, which was called banta. You know, and without that banta- and I put it in the book- and I said in the book- the banter always ended as much as it was banter, always

it did with all yeah, but at least I'm not black. Now, even though it was not that way, and I completely understood where we're having fun we're, making fun of each other we laughing joking, but on a serious note, while that's not serious enough for us to fight with obama, sees phantom girl friends, but I I automatically knew that, even if you want to make jokes, your momma jokes, for example, that they have an america that is the one which trumps everything, because they are completely right, because, but what I always felt strange not strange about, but what I couldn't fathom is why? but I thought it takes about seventeen a white working class football fans who I knew probably then have a good education vision. A council house, I've got a job, would feel superior to me just because his light and that's, why could never affect me

I felt superior to him? I know that I'm going to be called a commie intelligence. I can go to the one that you're talking to what I want. So why do you just because you're white? Why do you feel superior to me so it never affected me? I taught my white colleagues and the managers would go that bonds he put on put on a brave face. I can not put on a brave face, I'm fine and a goat. That's it don't let them know they got into you they're not going to be now if you're, a lizard, wizard or or or, and right or somebody who brought up in in this country whereby your family live in a council house and he could disenfranchise blah blah blah. You know the the the real the real racism that you have actually experience and my experience my whole life living the where I live uncontaminated about well, I've got a banana coming on the field, so martin Luther king said that in nineteen sixty three that it is that it is the what did he say just the shuttle the standing of racial buys by boat people that you me and everybody else which are more problematic problematic than the total misunderstanding by that date

the total misunderstanding of racial bias by bad people are the ones who throw the banana on the field and racially abused on twitter they're. Not the problem is the shallow misunderstanding by good people of racial bias, which means that we all believe we're not racially biased, which is a shallow way of looking at it, because we we we we don't do that and secondly, what I can't do- and I could never do from I was young- is I can't capitalize on the negative aspects of atlas while not enduring the everyday reality of the black experience, meaning I don't go through this every day. My everyday experience is a very nice topic called for the restaurants. Go to downing street mixed with all the high estimate with everyone. That's my that's my everyday experience, but every now and again a banana comes on the field, so I can't capitalize on the banana coming on the field. If I'm not going to endure the everyday experience of the average black person go through everyday So what I'll do is I'll speak for him I'll speak for that black person, because no one does because I remember my friends have to get to the ground five minutes, my black friends after the kickoff and the five liter four

could I get beaten up unless you abused, but no one talks about the american continent, Well, then, the concern about me when I'm eating my shop drinking my champagne on the coast, because a madonna comes on and I've done that since I was eighteen years old- and I continue to do that today- John, that you are familiar such an important voice in this conversation because of your ability and willingness to outlaw, the complex, a to not fall into the trap of gestures or Knee jerk condemnation to approach with understanding and discernment, open, mindedness and willingness to reach solutions with people this from asia. precisely what's needed, and I'm grateful to you for offering it to us what I would like. I would like people like marcus rashford on that one incident that he did. I would like to. More power than I am now fifty eight years old, if it's pretty soon, HO john bands and could have this conversation where's the conversation We have been saying this back then, but there was no time randomly

listen, and now it's too late for that fifty eight nobody really was visited, whereas what our young superstars are now saying is told my house it is montenegro, serbia and hungary and white working class fans. So we rarely aren't getting to that that that that solution so I'll just come to the so hopefully just do what I do in a small way. I feel your voice will be a big influence and, like you say, with mark rashford when he turned the attention to the powerful bang and let go with raheem when he turned it to the media report in bam. It like it's whoa, steady, we're going to continue that yeah wait for hungarian racist football fan, I'll go back today. Of course, that's what we do and that we focus on that. Nobody come that, it will work did say they spent hungry yeah. Let's keep condemning. What I've got no power people with no account whatsoever knife. A man thanks thanks for John thanks to your time, is worse than education, appreciate

no problem at all night. I gotta get help and you got that you can just go there to be any time before the summer. I would love to. I will stay free. I very much kitchen tata he's enjoy that can help If the cat is very distracting, that'd be distracted. I'd never allow that to happen. People are always distracted if a cat puts to it's anus and reproductive system in your face, but I just think I want life sweet life, all of it's, for and faults or I so listen come see. Me live, sure that you keep it on my youtube channel meditate regular for mere social media spend it. Thank you listening and the skin from luminary