Hello worked under the skin. With me Russell brand this week it is lovely back in the ussr drawback in it, be our guest on the poor cost and if that's the reason, the eve tuned in then be assured back in is a fantastic guess, use of I'd, say I'm Adam Adam S, level, fink, asian american, canadian, raw filmmaker professor, the pisa. I allowed school of law at the university of british columbia. You know that book What was that film? My way without the inter regional cooperation psychopath? Whoever was I film coolly corporation? Is that what is called an inch I what kind of. snow, you, the corporal Can that film race of says the corporations psychopaths he made that brilliant film and now got a new book out called the new corporation. How good corporations are bad for democracy? He's released a documentary film based on it. You can find out more about both at Joe back in dot com.

His name's spout job. You know that bit b I came. I am job back and fantastic conversation, one the man brilliant educator, I felt brighter and meant stronger when the conversation was finished, so do check that out jenny, jenny, genome light, I want to die because of this act. I think he was angry at me- wouldn't blame in the office, and I heard, and then you said you ve got to seek for lies in allowing mouth or something of that region giving them a compliment. I, how is that How can I send an eye truthful right? True flies does he was wearing a mask? Second seizes the space are linking garth just would you like to come mike what have no guys as sq version of a like a witness statement, one objective. I e g, the objectively going around her feelings.

Lastly, because I'm too objected yeah. So I would say you idiot: how could I guess like them within a mile? I would call anyone in it it s true, but you could tsars? My lovely? No, I didn't criticise. Guy said it wasn't, wasn't plus or minus any god of the earlier, so you would have had no I'm wearing a useful coat with full lining an as tech print at the pockets and that the back running down the spine, I said Jane what this garment. She said. Nothing for while said it s, actually the men and eventually she said I wasn't expecting the back That's what you said that you took and so I ask people what they thought: the people, the work here you gotta ask any masked at our borders, Well, I'd have laughed so I think,

We love that co laugh or laugh and cruelty. Jed mixture life was about a code or seen. The laugh is my where these but the love, this is abused, every time, a person or if only because it wasn't wait delay. The person deserves promotions, it. Is a nice lining by didn't see the lining that was just I am surprised by the back I'll leave hi. How are they pay? A branch of barcelona will give the guy is to be, I scoffed at in this manner. If you'd been around changed. Anything else that you want to add now that it's live with Judy, because mercury is a metric of this. You you ve, started leading astrology. I don't believe in anything. Nihilist danes Everything that, even if you don't believe in Glasgow Jonesy, so every occasion, europe as they should be made the microbes lifting papers mood

rather than this sound irishwoman. Standards exist. While she says I can now take the route of with it. three wrote come to life. You know that going to feel like, maybe god, guarding the galaxy, where serves a tree tree roots, come alive of mps who grew happens films now you'll be like that you're lucky a living like you. I would like it if I said something that was true. Could then you wouldn't trust me. Mister those whether things right, you're scepticism makes your arrival. Well, done for being you and everyone listening all them for being. You will be a lot more you after he had Joe back in educating you on the problems, modern corporations embracing conscientiousness, but merely as a further marketing and advertising tool did you enjoy the episode with Adam constitute any yes because of its work,

passengers yeah, because europe is the best, but that's lovely. Thus you you'd, that was plausible. by I think I know, you're right. I prefer you I try to be kind ever is I'm almost blushing delighted, division, listen when it occurs. It may email address in it or anything that gives the awkward silences. I like some of them. Some of them are too long what awkward silences where they were when he went outside saying to him, and he just didn't say anything yeah and yeah yeah. Why did he like that? He doesn't want rise to publication, archie friends with him, but likely would not know them saving is heard the interests and he's not doesn't wanna play into your game. Into that game right near her voice, now We're here some comments: fitness, darfur, feelings,

finish. It often feeling with ideas and every short supply. Is the application execution a beneficial way by competent and honest people, which is sadly lock lacking higher straws where those who wield inference operate, That is what happened: good comment, food dot, fitness dog food of feeling who picked. This comment me difficult to believe glamour, house underscore deb, refreshing dialogue and interesting and intelligent conversation. Thank you. I know knock a monique, I you know I'm why been advised to grow food. They live off great, spread paper out from living step are we not being advised to grow, food and live off grid spread people out from living stacked frontal, whatever the planet. It isn't as small as we are taught, and then some crossed hammers mean in this person might be west ham fan like me

Mr locations, I never run out ideas list and the houses of parliament into big pie who employ the airline in their plus have slowed down. Miss who locations? Why not? Do that's good as anything else that we had suggested europe? In all honesty, I you're right. Have you been doing a home? absolutely nothing. Tell him you now that is a spot on the sofa. You don't see any man I'm tryin to, because you sit there, at the end of the day. Does that beer, The only thing done so I sat on the staff of my room on the floor and meditation cushion he's just moving around the house. design only directive, but not the If I were you nestled down there, it is it's not like it. Do you looking at app or something what you empty smirking. What exactly is that you do if you do with furious business or ice religion, Joe back and then this thank you, bastard

isn't joe back and will or learn. Something was something atmosphere from making sure that, for my mailing list, job market dot com, sign up to the moment missed you get really good continuity. I one for work. Demise produce, in a series of well what It is made to the mai, inspirational thinkers, philosophers, poets, etc. Love we started with gandhi, lovely little. Video will send you that pastures slowly for free, for you also we're doing life events now doing some tapping on zoom with nickel. I was a guest on this show if you're a member of that, if you sign up to the mailing list, then you'll get these exclusive free, invites and free bits of high value content is how I described that and market speak and don't they always tell you the channel Such saw channel now awaken with Russell know that some harris awakening redress awakening with Russell check out for new videos on meditation

and do look at the videos on youtube as well, and if you, if you an ask me anything, you can ask me anything by going again to Russell brand dot com and just ask me any questions using your little mouth hole and they'll be included in the podcast. Three homage out back in that area, so I feel we re in animal, I'm not fully myself. Ok, that's! Why many of your slurs, always particularly bruising now Let us listen to draw back in trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of category, not successful. That's exactly right! We're in this era. Where turns out, we were never works beneath the surface of people. We admire the ideas that the finance on the history and welcome to Russell brand and Joe backin. Thank you for it.

much for joining us on under the skin. To have me? I am a big fan of the show. Thank you so much fun. If your book in the new cooperation. How good corporations a bad for democracy seems to me that one of the things you are talking about is kind of. or to affirm mark in disingenuity. The honor of personal level could be understood. It as very virtue signalling. What have deep does it go, and why is it something we have to be aware of. I think it goes very deep, which was a realisation that I had maybe about five or six years ago in its what drove me to do a sequel to the first movie I dead, where I revealed? Corporations has basically psychopathic entities, and the economic J doesn't mean I was made

While this is a sequel to that, my god, your firstly was brilliant ass, a coup. Thank you very much. Thank you very much yet so, there's go path again at ease and they use social responsibility to market themselves and make themselves seem good and sell more widgets and cars because they make us like that. That seem to be the story there. and then, when I realized, I guess I was it. Can it hit me like a brick ives, watching the tenth anniversary screening of the first film, and we were celebrating drinking champagne? Have Nice party and I realize, is absolutely nothing celebrate everything we talked about in that film has gotten worse.

Important them that shortly after the first film came out, business people started calling me and actually pay me a lot of money to come and talk to their organizations and what they would always say to me is joel. Thank you. Thanks for calling us cycle paths, we needed the course correction. We know there is a problem. There are like hundreds thousands of people in the streets protesting the anti globalization protests, so we're going to be better now we're going to be good, and I thought: okay, fine, you don't knock yourself out, go and begun, and but and like five years later, as I'm watching this happening, I realize you know what this being good thing. It's not just like it was before a marketing ploy. What it really is, is it's a play to over everything, because the way it rolling out now is not just we'll be good, so we won't pollute your neighborhood. It will be good for you should let us run your schools, you should let us run your water.

Systems, you should let us run everything and those governments. You know they're not really a very good job, so we're good. Now we now don't just make money, but we serve the public good, so I kind of like governments now so what're. You treat us tat way and let us controller, return and not realisation that led me to this new book and the subtitle. That's why good corporations are bad for democracy. you can see how it's a innocence: natural teleology for brand identity, to start to creating a new remit- and I wonder, like there's a feeling if anything about many things, think about David foster, wallace, he's right in how we kind of foresaw the corporations would become like almost so. the literal would have literal dominion. May we can see from the growth of likes of soup

operations, tech companies in particular, how they ultimately own site, so much psychic space and cyber space that for them too of those. I will why don't we just run Norway now or even in the united states, wouldn't is not is not entirely implausible and ice, If you minded also of them, unlike something so a while ago that change only comes incremental change or even reform only comes about. when is no longer just hold it to get less aid, for example, the most obvious example being the abolition of slavery. So we can. actually there way without any more, but we can get away with this new thing, this basically keeping alive the key components of slavery, and it seems at that that way that progress for which we will continually congratulating ourselves operates a coup. to those principles

yeah it's a great point and does this is the first I've done many many interviews and pod cason nobody's ever used the word telling ology before so congratulation. Thank you. Ten tacit word that I think needs to be. While it need some marketing behind to get it out there, but I Similarly right, slavery is really interesting and and the point you make as a really good one, that we abolish slavery. But then we maintain labour conditions that are such anti capitalist system that such that people have to work in order to survive, and they have to work often in highly exploited and slave, like condition so in terms of the actual lives of people they dont really improves, not marching, particularly

african americans, with the abolishment of slavery in that country, and you know the lives immediately after slavery were not that much different than they had been before, and so I do think change happens in in that way that the the sort of the categories- the understandings change. but the live lives and material realities of people. Don't that much and I think It is what we're going through now with with corporations and what I document in my book and film is a kind of two prop book by the way that film that you saw the first one I I now have a sequel out there, it's going to be in the uk and the united states fairly soon, so it's kind of making it's way from the festivals in

distribution and its based on the spot. And the point to make is that there has been a kind of two pronged strategy. The first problem has been over the last forty years. Big business has done everything it can to whittled down push back a force into retreat social, the social state, social programme, social government, at a push for privatisation. They push for deregulation, so they push for a smaller and smaller passing of the state to actually serve the needs of the people and to regulate them. So, on the one hand, they ve done that, on the other hand, they said and by the

they were good now, so we can take over those rules that the diminished state used to run, whether their schools or water systems or whatever. So that's been. The two pronged attack soda. The shrouding themselves, in goodness, has been very much part of a deliberate strategy to sort of finish. The work of taking over everything, and they dunna. They ve done a very good job at it, and I think that the point when I realized tat, I was shooting, with a crew in in Davos, Switzerland, at the big, sorted Davos, a world economic forum thing in twenty eighty and I caught a guy need richard out. All men in the town swear, and I had my camera operator, and so we don't your view on the plot. Richard idle men is like probably the world's most

well known and influential business guru he's the guy that corporations pay tons of money to to explain to them what's happening, and he also is a big believer. That corporations should be good should embrace purpose should do the right thing, all that kind of stuff and so the way he put it to me, as I corporations are good actors now, so they can filled the voids left by retreating governments. Now, of course, the reason governments are retreating does because corporations have pushed them into retreat. They lobbied Dave influence had done everything I can to drive down taxes, regulation and all of that so now that there in

tree corporation step in and say, okay, we'll solve the problem. They don't work anymore so we'll take over, but then I said to him: well what happened to democracy, because, whatever else you might say about corporations they're, not democratic institutions, and this is what he said to me and it's a direct quotes and the film it's in the book and it's showing he said I cause. This is the good guy of corporate capitalism. He said I'm not much of a believer in political citizenship. I

even the power of the marketplace. Now, that's something maggie thatcher would have said, but the thing is when it said in Davos, in two thousand and two thousand eighteen by richard arrow men. It sounds really nice and fluffy and good, because now corporations are good, and so I have political citizenship, not really working. You know. So, just let us run things will do much better and more efficiently, and I think that is the mentality that is happening within this whole movement that talks about corporations being right good actors now sustainable, socially responsible. All of that about that's really cool. I wonder how it aligns with the? recent men, by neo liberals. I e specifically the u s democratic party from a kind

first socially conscientious working class or in aid, wealth, distribution, fix, say. Eight model of political aspects have been particularly prominent in. U politics, I acknowledge towards a kind of social justice of motif, led, doubtlessly addressing of many important issues, but perhaps neglecting kind of obligations of citizenship, or at least creation of parameters, physician ship that yet a man, s of said, was kind of irrelevant. You know it seems, there's nowhere really like there's. No, equal pay that can in good faith, make a counter argument because they flew both. In the case, american or in a few other countries, food law been owned by the interests that you're describing jobs,

I may be the end of the book and film sort of showcase examples of politicians who try to break out of that neo liberal mode. We went over to barcelona and talk to the mayor. Their advocates allow we look. We we feature Bernie sanders a little bad. We looked at China is the want of socialist city councillor in seattle, so we we acknowledge that the problem is that the traditional parties of the quote laughter the progressive parties, whether it sir I mean labour in britain- is complicated. Carbon up. You know may be seen as somebody trying to go in and on the illiberal direction, but for the most part, the parties of the left and europe around the world, canada, the united states, if you could ever called the democratic party, a party of the left have kind of abandoned their classroom.

and some people say: oh well, that's a good thing, because now they're embracing broader identities and going more in the identity. Politics staying in that's a good thing, because those things need to be recognised and there absolutely right. Those things do need to be recognised, I would also needs to be recognised and what is being recognised is that those things are intrinsically woven into class near and and that for me, the ultimate victory of neo liberalism is that it has extinguish class consciousness, extinguish class as in an illiterate hold tool in the academy, and it's been and it can do that because cap, doesn't really care about. You know gender race all these issues have historically been part of. What's help generate capital is exploiting gender exporting grace. All of that, but capital today can

quite magnanimous about equality so long as it does an attack its class position, while so, if you bake in, if you make class invisible- You can recognise all kinds of inequalities as long as you don't recognize their intrinsic connections to class and that's what's happened in mainstream progress in politics is class has been evaporated and that's why companies amazon or jamie diamond. A J p morgan chase can come in now as heroes and saviours and say hey. We believe inequality because term equality no longer encompasses the profound all of them having the class position. They have thus cool and a few things first of all about the present sell you, the german corbett has been replaced by centrists lawyer,

leader of the labour party, and I got your mother, but there was a moment right and just like in the united states, even though sanders didn't you know succeed. There was a moment where you saw maybe a glimmering of a counter. Neo liberal kind of politics happening in the mainstream. Yes, any both cases, it was interesting how this of host PA a we could call it like universal, so have attacked the idea vehemently using so fascinate in tropes to isolate, discredit and ultimately and annihilate. Those figures, though, so, have a burn.

Expense of posit aid into this of neutered avuncular role, it seems now sat in his mittens as a sort of her reminder of the relentless march continues forth, and let me sit there about the magnum entity of corporations around equality that is extracted from essentially from economics. Given the economics is so palpably and most plainly, their raison d'etre and they're the only reason for existing and are wondering what you thought, about the kind of like a wild, these s of movements around a quality of bain taking place which can be bought it on to corporate and brand identities. You know so like a round the soul of the horror. If the murder of george floyd in this of subsequent black life, MA river I will I explosion. The participation of corporations in that movement was notable

Always myself, I suppose, was of my age in the coming years, is of hats of cynical about anything that can be like a lucky. If in our country, when I see boris, johnson and prince Charles applauding for the innate chess, I'm immediately like well. If there is to it like, I don't know how they can busy. Obviously is no problem socially, not is not an attack on their. You know the one vulnerable point that I is put in the deaf staff in a narrative reasons about her, but like em, I feel

this demonize action. If the working class- which is so, I think part like lead to the rise of trump ism breaks, it gets even perhaps q unknown eirik see now as an accompaniment to the rise of identity, politics and the ability of a tendency politics to be voted on corporate and is in a way that you can do with peoples whose identities are inherently derived from class. I mean here's the crazy thing: it's it's the well. Let me address a few points there, because there are a lot of first one of you right to be cynical about the posturing. I mean amazon is talking about black life matter, while at the same time busting

indians primarily being put together by workers who are people of color african americans in the united states and other people of color in highly exploitative conditions in conditions where their unsafe, due to the pandemic, they're trying to form unions, they're, they're, trying to say something, they're getting fired for doing that, they're working in her renders slave like conditions there having any minimal employment standards that are provided them by law, evaded avoided, squelch, lobbied against, so it is just absolutely it's hard to be it's hard to be too cynical and that's a very sad thing, but it's hard to be too cynical when corporations jump on these bad, wagons or or gender or or or any of them in, and the trick is always the way that they separate the issue from class relations.

From work really dont say, amazon doesn't say: hey we care about african american people so we're going to raise the wages of our warehouse employs and stop trying to bust their unions the day that day do that. Oh, you know the day that dead, dead, jaunting prince charles ah say: hey. You know what the any just is really going to shut because it's not properly funded. So let's raise corporate taxes by twenty three percent, you know. Let's let make sure that corporations and wealthy people provide what date should be providing so that we can have it he's in healthcare system when they do that and when John bays house, you know, says: hey I

my employees to union eyes, then we should have this chat again, because I may be a little bit less cynical and you may be too, but at that's that gonna happen, even the existence of that the profits currently enjoyed by corporations on scale of amazon niece of global giants in an indication of wrong in the more that we saw from unpick realism and colonialism. It becomes kind of evident that there are a number of great book recently by nick highs on trespass about let yunus over ninety seven percent of the land in this country or nine troops in the command. This country can't go on a status of yes, why that is so requires an empirical perspective. You know it's like a lovely lovely book actually, but books about how that none of these beautiful

teach houses like a all of em. If you look at the slavery, colonization murder brutalization like this, no one with historic wealth. That's go blood, a man's life, whether it's the royal family, or these, like yourself, if no british companies like taken law away of all of these countries, companies are built on exploitation, the innocents you can't generate profit without exportation without tree in the labour of human individuals is a resource and the earth itself as a resource I wonder how that kind of lens jobs could be applied to solve these modern corporations. And if there is a corollary there between, so that the acquisition of historic legacy, wealth and in a modern, well flight is where I think the first thing that has to be said,

It is that there is a dollar or pounds or any currency unit in circulation today, including the ones in my pot. Well, actually, I don't have any in my pocket. I only have credit and at cards, but anyways, including what I have in my pocket that can trace its lineage somehow to either history. local or contemporary slavery, colonialism and certainly exploitation of the earth. It's just not possible the original pools of capital that workers did among the european powers and then the united states thereafter were based on the extraction of labour from people who were paid for their labour. I slaves they were based on the extraction of labour from people under the I've, colonialist regimes who may have been paid for their lead

or were not paid sufficiently to live and lived in horrendous conditions. They were extracted from lands tat were literally stolen from indigenous people who were killed and slaughtered to get at those lands and new cultures were destroyed, and they were extracted from the earth, then a myriad of ways, whether lit relief from the ground or by destroying the atmosphere through spewing chemicals and gases into it. Extraction, exploitation are the things that make profit. I mean Karl Marx. New, that's right, tat was that was the basis of of his theory. Eat key called it surplus value. Surplus value is the difference between You know that the that thing that your exploiting and the money that you get from exploiting it and that profit

What are we gonna? Do then, because I feel like when, speak about marks socialism phil, like you know, how truly with flogging a dead was there in abide by recognize when we took it out, regulation and taxation. I can say that, well, how would you ever without the use of taxation and regulation? How would you ever begin to redress this sort of phenomenal problem that we are confronted by, but you I can't see it I feel like that. Socialism is a bit retro grade, or do you think this is a matter of rebranding or do you think it's a requirement? We reinvention people have used different words throughout history. To describe roughly the same things I mean we ve had systems that have been based on pluto. The oligarchy plutocracy is ah young. Capitalism is one of those where

very few people sitting at the top, who do very well and then there's everybody else, and then we've had systems far less frequently and where there is some attempt to ensure that every but he's doing ok, even if some people are doing better than others. I've done. We ve had systems that have tried to make it so that everybody is doing exactly the same or call those communist systems, and they didn't work very well either. So, though, the ones that have been successful have tended to operate in this place where they say we're not going to strive for absolute equality, we're not going to strive for perfection, but we're try to ensure that everybody can live a decent life tat the poor,

It isn't ruined that there is opportunity for people to move out of whatever situation they're in you know that kind of thing, which is basically the social democracy that we have in the post, depression, post war period and advanced european countries. I see that as a start towards something else. I don't know if we're going to call that socialism here would be my pitch socialism being a pretty decent word to use, and that is versus capitalism. If we're gonna happen, ism shouldn't be, which had to tell ya ology right to get back to that word in in and says that the word that comes before the ism is a goal were trying to achieve. Ok, I sticking social in front of the esa makes sense to me we're trying to achieve a good society, a social body that works and is functional.

sticking capitalism in front of years and is one of the most absurd and ridiculous things that you could imagine. If you came down from outer space and look is society to hate, we want to call itself but to listen to our technology is going to be capital. and somehow or another. If producing help at all a bit of it'll trickled down and and the people who are doing all the work of producing at but getting no benefit we'll get a little bit of that. Stop that trickled down from the people who get all benefit. What do you think that you know most aliens would say? That's ridiculous. I get on the bus, it came from. Capitalist society They would say I: why would you want to do tat? Why, wouldn't you stick social in front of the esa and say: let's have a society that tries to make a good society? Is it isn't that the proper goal,

an end. So that's why I want to just hold on. I agree. The word socialism has so much baggage with it and you know, not least of which it stalinism and and national socialism in germany, like it's a what Protect, you know, has been booted around about, so maybe we should come up with a different work. Maybe we should get the personal you know signs all the names for stuff an idea to come up with a word. You know you're the glockenspiel and system or something, but so I so I kind of want to hang onto the idea of socialism because in literal terms, it seems to make sense to me that social should be the ism, but you know We need to factor in environmental stuff too, that I kind of like the idea of green red coalitions. All of that, but getting back to your point about extraction and exploitation to me that is really

we have to aim at. Do we want a system where the ism is up? not only licensing extraction but glorifying extraction. Capitalism is or do we want a word or a system that says extraction should not be the end? The end should be creating a decent society. If we have to exploit and extract a bit clearer there in order to get there, we have to do it in a way that respectful what were risk extracting from we have to do it in a way that minimalism harm, but that the main thing is to create a society that is, is good. That should be the the. I see that how capitalism

All of these social systems at some point must be under good advice, psychic energies and primal impulses in human beings in order that they have any kind of indeed they stick, you know as I was thinking that this of individual Lisbon is a very significant of why to underwrite capitalism, if you think they so easy for human beings to think well of war, I want a more affects my family directly. It was important to me an ideology even one this off. somewhat invisible at least, is an explicit in terms of like flag wait any. It seems that the troops, motifs and so of honor anthems of capitalism still derived from socialism met in semi nationalism that there are many other varies. This thing there is a country that we're all part of for we will contribute to, and then that is it.

If we're invited to accept that sits alongside that the free market and other things that have the word free tacked onto them to disguise what they actually are, which is bloody expensive. So it feels like much. I am I am interested that you in your first film used that play an site. logical diagnosis in identifying how a corporation behaves, and I want if you're interested in the application of psychological and even spiritual models to critique dissects and possibly to provide alternatives. The current model. I ask is somewhat because I'm reminded that genzaburo socialism so come via a different route than sort of soviet communism, eyes of men these Christiana. A ideas of

try eve and brotherhood and bill fraternity belonging love, service, sacrifices of religious ideas. Really, I suppose, without which he, you know even humanitarianism from a secular perspective, is difficult to vitalize. I want to think about that slot. Another settled there yeah. I think psychology is absolutely at the core of it all, and I agree with you entirely that ideology is not is in its most interesting forms is not flag, waving capital ideology, but it's rather the things that we take as natural as necessary as inevitable that we just presume that we presume in the way that individualism is right in the way that if I walk into a table, I start my toe that these are just inherent truths and an eye. I in terms of this film. I was really thinking of using a cycle phenomenon donors, stockholm syndrome too,

to describe our relationship to corporations that you have stock on syndrome, is, is about the the chapter in that the cap, the person whose captive in a hostage, situation falling in love with the captor, and and and in a way that what's happened to us with corporations have captured us. We ve fallen in love and I played around, but that, as you well know Narrative devices always seen better when you wake up with a start at three in the morning and right, down on your little notepad. Then they do when you actually try them and just it didn't work. It wasn't as clean as does sort a psychopath metaphors. So so we abandoned, but I do, think that psychology is at the root of all nets and that any ideology to be effective enemy, grab. She knew this marked knew that any ideology to be effective, has to have a grain of truth to it, and there is no

should that neo liberalism has a large grain of truth drew it we we relate to the eye. you have individual freedom. We had this at desire to just do what we want and have nobody tell us not to we relate to the idea of a being unconstrained. Being able to do whatever we want of the heroic individual. God knows see it, and you know every film we watch every story. We read even once not and by an brand I mean you know that decide the heroic individuals, a very powerful one. very real one and an we relate to consumer gratification. You don't we getting good stuff. We like to get nice products we like to drive nice carts and where nice clubs so

We are all of that as people and the trick that happened with neo liberalism is corporations have acquainted their desire to have those psychological things two hours. In other words, they say hey. We understand that you want freedom. Will we do to so? Don't make us pay taxes, dont regulate us. just like you, we want freedom and you're just like us, so it's parted. The illusion of of the class difference between the citizen, the working person and the mega corporation is the mega corporation, presents itself as an ideological proxy for individuals and says If you give us our freedom, then you'll be free to were all the same. We're in this together wherein this thing for freedom together now what I would add

as human beings. We are incredibly complex. I'm not can be embarrassed about the fact that I, like a good bottle of wine, that I have consumer appetite that I'd like to be free, that I dont like to be told what to do that. I do have those adolescent desires for freedom, but I also have a whole bunch of other things. I care about other people. I want to help them. I wanted to do good in the world all of those method as christian ideas at underlay the rise and socialism in the uk in Canada as well. The idea that the collective good is necessary for us as individuals to flourish, the idea that freedom doesn't only mean I can do what I want, but also means that I have health care so that I'm not dead so that that there is a social system that supports made. That gives me education. so that I can flourish in the world and so as soon as you start to unpack arch, human psychology and design,

there's a lot of them actually required the very things that socialism and social states and collective endeavour provides, not least of which is to have a world tat. Uninhabitable, our individual freedom, isn't gonna, be worth very much if we burn up you know if if societies don't function anymore if the reader, underwater or so error that they can support people, you can be screaming about individual freedom, I'm not gonna, where my mask you know, but if the planet has gone to shut, that's not gonna help you very much, and you know the pandemics, a good example of that. If we ve gone, if, if you know it's depend, I'm adjusted spread like crazy and blah blah blonde, and everybody is sick and dying and everything else, because no collective measures have been taken. Then we as individual dont have a lot of freedom. So I think

europe, NEO liberalism has succeeded by simplifying the idea of freedom and creating a simple equation across class lines between corporate freedom in individuals, freedom, and that is the power of the ideology. It's really easy to unpack it, intellectually, but I think it's also broadly sedimentary into people's consciousness in ways that that make it quite a task to turn it around which, as you know, why I do the work I do I mean that, the aim that exactly that task- tax, brilliant, because in our thinking that perhaps there obviously the beneficiaries of this negligence ah created through this. the simple equation of cross club, lines of corporate freedom, a quite into individual freedom,

the beneficiaries of their there, the vacancy created by that I've, been politicians and political ideologies that can easily mobilize journalism, for example, as any of its remnant sense of community and that that's that's real power, that's left that lack class that those with the imf they held by it within the class discourse and within the class dialectic and not but they're, not gonna, why that's it still there it has still has to be held. Daphne are saying when you're talking about like the necessity for collective action to facilitate individual freedom was that it made me feel show that women, have a kind of use it popular phrase baked in Inability to appreciate ideas of that's

I'll even beyond. Perhaps if we can appreciate them, intellectually, if we can appreciate and intellectually thus far it goes, because we simply not evolved for the conditions we find ourselves in we, I wonder if we ought, I can see the need for this kind of like us. Have I dunno what you wanna call it of that post postwar state socialism that you have described there earlier, but in a way those are the conditions that lead to us to where we are now and I'm sure you could, then I'm sure you have traced this point. of deregulation and decrease. Taxation with reagan clean and you loss of pivotal moment- have led us to where we. alba. I still see it as as of like a you know, a course that we were on and have watched though I would never claimed it was inevitable. I I feel that.

One at the way. The corporations learn certain essential truths and then take them on board which again chimes nicely with your psychopath notion, piss vacation. There is a way that we perhaps have to look at what human beings are capable of hand Of course, I'm not suggesting outside it many like that. We we tribal animals that we can't garret round grid like that. Globalism has solved a pool. Thus, on some level, is create aid, fragmentation and conflict is actually there's no reason for me if I'm living delaware to appreciate and respects the tribal stems of some trouble. Try in bloody iceland, the weather, not just let you know that, like that again and lamb gown with it, isn't it ideology: ology is a reality. Just don't need to you don't need to know. I

globalism because of all molly led by free market imperatives. His expose people to Olaf's of cultural, the differences that have been solved mobilize to create this kind of detention and despair, able I've run at least half the fervid minion. If the already bennett those already benefit yeah I mean. I think that there is a lot in in what you're saying the flip side of it is, that globalism has done in the form its taken in venture capital is is, to undermine people's ability to create those commute It is in their own communities, in other words, that there, de the economic infrastructure that they need is taken away as companies take jobs elsewhere the security that they have a good health care and education system is taken away as corporation succeed industry, social infrastructures, so you ve got this

weird combination where the one and we're supposed to be a global community were supposed to care what's happening in finland and at the same Nobody cares about us in our own community, and I think that leads to the kind of horrible accident and xenophobia and racism that we're seeing today. I think that if you completely got the social infrastructure of people's lives, if you completely got the very the idea that there should be a social infrastructure through NEO liberal ideas. You start to force people more into eight, a desperate tribalism, desperate and sense that they feel their life have no hope. They feel that in the name of some kind of global ideal dare

in communities their own families, their own lives are being destroyed, and I think when that happens, people start looking for others to blame and they start blaming. Those outsiders that they see are either in painting their communities or taking away their job somewhere else or whatever, and I think that is part of what we're seeing me. What I argue in the book is, is that corporations I sat there psychopaths right, I mean, as institutions they legally, I'm illegal scholar, that's my day job and they legally half, do serve their own interests. I make money for their shareholders, that's what they're legally designed to do. While, if you are that, then you are going to seek influence over government so that you can get government to do things that will help you do that you are going to expand into new markets like schools and water systems, because it's your job, to make money off things in your running out of other things, so you're going to go over there I mean

very dynamic, other capital is corporation, is to take over government expand its domain. That's not conspiracy! Theory, that's just following the logic of how the institution has put together a mass, more power exercise it and then a mass more power so that you can make more profit as a consequence of tat. We ve pushed a kind of economic globalization based on unregulated markets, and we pushed the lives of most working class people down and we ve taken away hope and we ve taken away possibility and we we thereby force people into this desperate tribalism that has then spawned the kind of xenophobia and racism that lead to some of these. Current political movements, including

our trump ism in the united states. That is very dangerous and and very, very disturbing. But that but the problem is that any see it throughout history is that, rather than looking to those in power, the corporations as having view over as having the cause of the problem? People turn on each other, people turn in each other and end and fall into these sort of xenophobic seal of so so that I mean that's, what's happening, that that big business has made a very deliberate campaign to push back democracy over the last forty years. They ve destroyed social solidarity as a result, they ve destroyed social infrastructure and they planted the seeds for this

and if, inter seeing a warfare, that's happening among and between different groups of people along racial grounds of gender grounds. I mean the rise of patriarchy, I mean just all these horrible things are what happens when the basic social and economic commonality that we were trying to achieve in the post war years as imperfect as they were, when that all just falls apart or more accurately is destroyed, cool. That's amazing analyses. Thank you. I saw a lot of things I thought of how much of the Nationalism. That's been observable in these recent historic sundering spreadsheet trump ism cetera has a kind of garry should see action or a sats air performative com account.

it's not real, somehow you know like easy, is not a lack of nationalism. That sort of you say said demented with there. Feeling it's a performance, because this is occupied. a hollowed out structure. I remember light whenever the last remembrance day was that people could be Each of us as a year, almost two years ago, I was on some green. I live in rural england, like that of the cup. doubt let movements oak accumulation of both genders ought, in this like guinea, also covering their light as us off a priest, analysed stuff. They perform this thing, and this is minutes silence. However, in a couple of songs, the songs that, like that the brass band music had to be piped in, and I thought a bear even twenty years ago there would have been a brass band drawn from the community. That's gone, hollowed out the people

didn't know the words to the songs. No more. There was no sense of arousing chorus of a coming together. even in the minutes. Silence Joe the m supermarket, livery vans with their lurid branding of fresh produce. They patrol the green making their deliveries in the silence- and I felt like per year, It's been hollowed out, it's been hollowed there is nothing for us, twin I bet precisely as you say, because of this prerequisite, uncover and discover new markets to create more power to dream of profit, and so in a sense, no one individual within that when I once forty onest far far case. He said on this because he said when used daily, if like that, chancellor, the you briefly when he was so heading up rates. Are there? or in a senior all lay

at that he realized what he was talking to that person who was like the economics minister of the eu, the most powerful person in that room said that person had no power except to perform the power systemically afforded them, so that present couldn't go yet then we're about sir. It suited live a debt of gratitude. I couldn't say that he could only say what the system aloud and so it's sort of obvious that the systemic changes watch required when I took the people that are on virus suspicious of the state as a libertarian. But it's too, got to see without some kind of confederacy that serve amounts to a state. How, interests as powerful as those that were describing the of wreaked. This sure havoc upon our nation, can ever be confronted, unless there is an opposing force, which ultimately has to be the people representative of the people, go to see at the moment Joe, how that coalescence, car. Have you thought about that? Much

yeah, yeah, I'd, think about that every day and and and it's what it's what keeps me it's keeps me. awake at night I mean I'm not I. I was drawn Anarchism in my youth, I am sure many people would say that but I'm not an anarchist for exactly the reason you are suggesting, and that is the concentrations of power that her daughter pray, entirely enabled by the state, namely corporations are created by the state markets are created by the state. You cannot have markets, you cannot have corporations without legislatures a government making itself those are legal institutions and legal institutions are created by the state. so the only way we're gonna, unwind, damn or unwind their power or or have popular power in sums. Humanistic way, challenge that

is by engaging within the state. I don't see any other way. I mean, I suppose there is armed revolution all that, but you know history shows those don't turn out very well and I'm not an advocate. So I am book in my film with please to re democratize democracy, basically to rather than occupying the street occupied government. I see- and I dont in just go run for office. I mean really reach I think, what it means to be democratic and so I mentioned earlier. I feature political movements and

politicians, at the end of the book and film that have tried to melt a kind of Schuman s, deck and and environmental activism, with gaining political office within large p politics and at sea self, consciously see politics as connected to what's happening in the streets. As connected to what's happening in social movements as connected all of that to me it's that kind of symbiosis between activism and elected representative democratic office. That is the next place. We have to go it's not where we should aspire to end up, but I know utopian thinker, her. I can't think five steps down the line. I can only think now and I think in this matter now it's not enough anymore to just go out in protest. I don't you know

we ve seen that that doesn't really work, but protein it a central. It's just not sufficient. Not enough to just go, and you know, get elected on your city solar or in parliament or whatever, because you'll absorbed into what however, it is your your party is up to and we ve talked about bout already. There's a lot of cohabitation. That's happened on parties, progressive parties Somehow you need to unite these these things. You need to be doing both. You need to be doing politics in the streets and politics in the state and and again I'm not I'm not saying that. I think this is where we and operate. This is the utopia. You know representative democracy, but where we are now and given the states role in constituting the power that were struggling against, we need to be in there

we need to be struggling in there as well as from outside, has really cool thanks haste. do. You think that in it, just as us off the experiment, family game if like animals, These are vastly differing territories, but perhaps he so you pick one if, like Jeremy corbians labour party, a had become elected, sound as democrats had been hit, one the nomination become elected. What You imagine such a thing would play given this over financial opposition and media opposition, a figure that was generally interested in regulate in the media, wishes of this a subset of who corporations how to I think that they would fare and I suppose that's us over led up question to do it's possible to em. You know so, of inhabit existing parties and take them over or do you think, you're after established nous of mina populist in the right sense of the word populist political?

movements, but to answer that first, because I liked that begs the question. no, I mean there's a great film, a very british coup, and I mean that that's definitely one way that things could have worked out headquarters. or sanders been elected day. They might have been pushed out. in that way, but you know there are other narratives that are possible and probably the most realistic narrative is they would have been very frustrated. Their agendas would have been frustrated day would have pushed harder than we can expect Joe Biden, for example, to push they would have proof. Had some successes there would have had a lot of failures. It would have depended upon how their parties Their parliamentary or congressional majorities responded to it, but it would have been step in the right direction. I dont think we would have all of a sudden been living in a better world

act that in the united states, seventy million people voted for trump suggest You know the world in the united states would not all of a sudden, become shiny if, if Bernie sanders was elected, I think it's it's. Nothing is going to be dramatic. What really needs to happen, and this will get to the second part of your question- what really needs happen is. People need to be getting involved, not just in national politics, but in politics, at every level level, at their local councils, their cities, it has to be a sort of broad movement. It it's not gonna happen just from from the top down as import as that is, but as we are talking about, it has a lot to do with psychology, and I think that citizens becoming involved in politics seeing that there's possibility in politics feeling democracy not just hearing about it, but actually feelings.

As I see it as a sort of psychological, phenomenal, logical thing in their minds and hearts and souls tat kind of what's needed to get us from to feel their power actually as citizens and their obligation as citizens to be involved and governance. Now, can we do that through existing parties? Do we need to create new ones in that I I don't know if you look at sanders, he ran as a democrat. He sets as an independent. You know, I think, you go into an existing party and you you draw upon the more progressive tendons, he's within it and you change its character almost entirely. It doesn't matter that you called the labour party anymore if in substance is something different or you take the approach that I too call out too.

In barcelona, which is she created an entirely new party of activists, groups and civil society groups that had been shunted out of these spanish policies or parties of the left, which had become, kind of neo liberal, so I dont think it matters that much whether you sort of take over and existing party, start a new party. What matters is what your view: it is and whether you succeed in real life and get in either at those contacts. Caroline independence an interesting question not really she is sympathetic and she took a stand against the police sort of repression, but she is, she is somebody who put was on the other side of an independence candidate in twenty nineteen and just barely squeeze through

and one that election, so she's not seen as that she's much more. What I would call democratic, socialist eco, feminist, social movement with a class basis kind of politician when he briefly mentioned the seventy million trump vote. As I wonder, if I often think, as our discussion has come, the the likely interests of those groups would be but a man by I. Legitimate democratic life, this socialist movement, the that, in a way really what people people wait, he said you know utopian thing. I've got that's all I am. I find it so difficult to think of anything practical. I just I cut straight to the bit where people living in small self

the democratic communities and everyone's got jobs, and this is also simple and straightforward and forget about the bit between where the safer, gabriele of democratic campaigning or somehow, you've got to get control of the government and the police force in the military. She seems like it might be tricky and like an I, I suppose will I am I wonder, lies I do wonder- and I was more involved in for brief, while likens of how to present a different like of populism, my muff, this moment in europe after the financial crash that saw the rise of today, Teresa pepe, epic guerrilla. These popular out, establishment, also extra establishment super establishment figures. That was an interest at the moment and as precisely, she said that. But you know the the that there was a co. Optation is whatsoever. ultimately serve took place in those cases I sometimes the size about war

of set of policies word, mobilise the electorate, particularly in a landscape way. You could preemptively say, look bazin, my only interest, so I dont imagine that I'm gonna get a very fair run. with the media and establishment. It seems the policies would be in it like it's gonna, be regulation, taxation, and what, when I was doing that my little fancy fantasy politics question there earlier that I envisaged that, like the ceo, how how? How would the city of london respond to a like a genuine Democratic presence in government was interested in financial regulation, taxation, leather, I guess you would see lock as it were, The campaigns use of see those france played out in the media. These companies will leave these jobs will disappear. This will happen and like it. If that doesn't work further demonization, it seems you this ovum with a sophisticated electra. You could say that this is these.

The policies are, this is how we're gonna get the necessary resources. This is our internet Adam Kay, so I'm friends with brilliant filmmaker. You must know, and- and I guess you are of your work. I spoke to you about you, but I will live It would surely he says that there's no vision and that's the problem. The mass was playing out in politics and no one's saying this is what we're going to do is going to be great and it's there's going to be mistakes, but we're going this way and we're going to do it together. We're going to create this kind of society, and I wonder what type of party because we operate within such narrow margins. Politically, I wonder what that the ideas might be that people would ve movie by whether or not you identify as a trump the poor or a bernie support wherever it likely that really what you cut. You know normally the hard age if stuff that people get into and if they do because unconscious emotional region reasons. I would argue in I'm sure that summit you be sympathetic to do in a given your previous critical mode yeah

I mean, I think you just need. Look at the appalling when people are ass. You know, should everybody have a safe, clean, environment to Levin home. They say. Yes and massive numbers of seventy eighty percent, healthcare- and this is even in the united states, health care, social security. A young minimum wage. I mean all of these policies. do very well in pulling, and it's no surprise I mean people want to live a decent life. he's in communities. They won't have hope Wanna have hope that their kids will do better than them. I mean all these. These narratives are are powerful in us as human beings, have a good time. We won. Survive. We want to be able to go down the path you know we want. We want to have enough money in our pockets that when we go the pub, not only can we get a pint, but

we can actually feel that kind of euphoric feeling of everything's, ok thing- isn't gonna fall apart tomorrow and to me. If, if you run with that as a political, party now with all the ideology and the flag waving and everything else, but just you know what we. This is a bit it's minimum of being human. I mean like dear, do this in herds You know they make sure that they look after each other. These are very powerful ideas. We care about each other. Even if we're strangers, I mean Jesus Christ, I mean he did it. He had a good pitch You know he did well, I mean you know, have the world, and in those where his ideas? You know, I mean he wasn't talking about housing and social welfare, but he was saying- and we want you to lead a decent life care for your neighbour,

If you dont know them, you should feel some responsibility to them. So get going you're going back to psychology and going into the things that really make us feel. Ok, almost that ecstasy of of feeling that things are ok, you know, that's that's the platform and, I think Sanders free college education. He asked at some of that. He he made some of those appeals and look at how many people, including dont supporters went for it, and that is at the more. The the dominant political power is in the majority of countries, a line with one another and corporate interests, the more territory is being sea did in which these policies could be in it, because there is no one like it well for him. That was can happen obviously in the next election, or that the losses

me. Neither wait where were called him, the later labour, which is a nice it, but that kind of obviously this or there was a law that I mean what he faced in the media was pretty hardcore. Yeah, I mean part of what you have to do. Is you have to activate people to see the long game I mean you have to both be involved in politics, but understand that it's a means to an end. thanks job. Well, you ve, given a lot of practical advice for arthur overthrow the british government within pr The political means- and I can't ask a lot more from a pulp costs- guess, but my love em just come in and talk about, horoscopes and stuff, but you have provided a templates. Thank you, sir. I wish I mean I'm irish, I'm sorry. I have not yet read your book. I will read your book I'll, make sure that took about it up top and tail of the of the podcast. Also Realistic. I thank you kindly. If people who would like to watch the film as well yeah go

Joel back and dot com and all the information is their yeah. yeah I'll, be begun, a job back in dot com and I'll be I'll, be watching it. I certainly loved your first film about psychopathic corporations. It really is a very mobilizing idea, very accessible and really really helpful. Most memorable, thank you fer you education there and please let me know if there's anything else, I can ever do to help pay, because I think you're, a real great teacher. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you haven't beyond churchill aspects. I again soon. Well, I hope you enjoy the episode of under the skin with me, Russell brand produced as best, Can I get my finish talking to draw back and he's got fantastic new book out, which I can recommend enough to you, but firstly was the new cooperation, how good corporations

by for democracy, there's a documentary film available. If you wanna, find out more about that kind of job back and don't call me brilliant teacher you'll learn a lot by getting involved all right. Well, thank you very much and remember to go and I can't get on that mailing list and you know, ask me anything and get some fantastic content if enjoy these one innocent gary young khan ross, both exley thinkers and writers, tourism, interesting ideas and keep check my youtube channel daily Maybe the videos thank you for listening to under the skin from luminary.