Oh hello and welcome to under the skin, from luminary media. My face has got the name Russell brand on it. I spoke with Elizabeth Oldfield this week. Elizabeth is the director of influential think tank fi, os and host of the sacred podcast that and feels that his aim is to enrich the conversation about the role of faith in society, sacred precautions travelers into that authority, good, it's not on luminary. She can just bolin and get it for nothing rat sick for a second, though, as like mama used to make I'm if you'd like to follow Elizabeth on twitter handle is at theos elizabeth she's, a really brilliant person I really enjoy talking to ashley. Thanks for your comments on last week's pocket of eddystone, let me refer to them now, but before I do that my youtube channel subscribe to it watch the videos watch them for,

in periods of time and anything that is advertised on their rush out and buy know. Don't just do what you want, but then this new twenty five minute youtube show called the not too late show worship behind a desk and analyze the news a bit from this kind of new perspective, I'm working on this kind of incorporation of spirituality in terms of political life? Is one of banging on about these days? Is another interests you or not, but I think it might be there such a reward problem so give it a chance to outside photoshop from a mile in list in your droves gammarus around come and then send a sea mouse with three for a time to send you aim now after him So the help wanta hello, one! No luck! If, especially, if you need help in something summing up here, she feel sad need support with him. He got volunteers working for us now, god love em, that would direct towards appropriate support surgery and these cash you have just out of here

difficult die, I'm only a cash. You would do brazilian duty, so I say source things out of her come by speeding up, but then you go and you are everyone getting sacramento social media, do at rusty rockets on twitter use the hashtag under the skin. If you do at this podcast and on instagram it's at Russell brand, you can get in touch me there. Here's. A medium term comments cake, x, x, I've been practicing or stand twenty years and for various reasons, good

we made so much sense to me and tied everything together. Thanks for this beautiful podcast at our pleasure, Karen cooder. Yes, I did the lovely breathing exercise and just starts at the end, announcing those crucial, crucial questions for myself. My son came in singing about how awesome his bat was. Oh well. Well, that's a sign isn't here to sign everything is one everything is one and well yeah. He recalled make room for the profane in the sacred tiffin sing, I loved it got the breathing app curious. Why do we ask at the end Am I? Where am I going, and what do I do next? I supposed to leave that questionnaire to to somewhat shake the certainty of your individual egotistical, not you in particular tiff that you know we as humans. You know who is Russell brand really for god's sake, who were we before we had our names? Who are we preach? linguistically, who is the unborn selfish, asks airspace to invite you to explore that blonde orange fantastic

cause, I'm very interested in the idea of rebranding yoga hackler make spiritual knowledge, more practical and practices more accessible. For language and through the media must both our privileged white female was wrongly. That might nothing wrong with that been transformed by tm yoke. I'm so grateful for people like eddie Russell. So thanks thanks for that lovely Ok, listen tell is above food now an important voice in the conversation the around to introducing spiritual principle Into social conversations which s face it can, if it later, we these days. We need a bit more love to a bit more tolerance, a bit more grace, spiritual ideas, this let them into the conversation check out things you never size.

Trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of calgary is not successful. That's exactly right! We're in this era, where it turns out. We were never fucking on walks beneath the surface of people, with more of the ideas that the finance on the history, the welcome to Russell brand, the sky without field thanks for coming on under the skin? With me thanks autonomy slowly place to be because of met because of richard. I worry previous guest and because he introduced me to your forecasts. The sacred image pose, as I understand it, you're talking about people's relationship with men. I created a sublime in a secular context and not necessarily a theological context. One or listen to enjoyed was- john lloyd, the tv producer, because he is so well

Otherwise, if has seemed previously overtly intellectual, quiet, academic and people, that's all seem embedded in a cultural paraphernalia. it seems to me. Often that's the expensive spiritual values cause, it seems low in the cultural revolution. The those values were replaced by a kind of diy vacation of cultural artifacts and cultural idols. What is it you're up to there with that sacred pocosin yeah? So I've had various academics on who have aren't very thought out to rigorous definitions of the sacred that I've deliberately tried to not over think it because feels like the sacred is in some ways really hard to get at with words, but we have to try cause it's a conversation and it's really about trying to hold open some surveys for us

self reflect that this society will go into in the way we live and the pace of life on the information technology architecture means that the space to go right. What is a good life? What's a good person? and was thus of meaning and belong now I am seeking, gets really squeezed out, and so just asking the question of people seems to me to be a vote you and then there's also a bit in their about hearing other people reflect on their sacred values, particularly people that you disagree with help. She understand actually most people are in some ways, sort of painfully and badly grasping towards what they think is good, that they are. You know, possibly, you know in good faith and bad faith ways, but no one thinks they're the bad guy, not in the classic mitchell and webb sketch, and we've got into this binary public debate. Where

the bad guys in the good guys as us and then the enemies and the ways we define our identities are getting kind of tighter and tighter and smaller and smaller. And so having these longer from conversations with people that hopefully the listeners will eventually find someone. They disagree with quite strongly, but listening

am I ever say, forty five minutes reflect in a non of non performance hiv way. Hopefully vulnerably. You just get to hear the fragility and the yeah the the deep deeply human person behind the public position and that I think just is healthy for us. I sometimes wonder if the publicly held position it or it seems through what you're saying is well Elizabeth. Is the that desert not an artifice to it, but there is a great a depth to deter people's sacred, believes that beliefs than what they externally exhibit, and I suppose what I'm referring to is my own experience of talking to candace owens, whose law depleting socially conservative and has got some views. I would strongly disagree with around like say, race and inequality and poverty and stuff upon a human level. I found that to be pray

lovely an interesting in farm actually, and it seems that they saw a firm of. I think I've heard you say that, because of our ability to communicate were more aware now of distinction and difference in conflict, and that seems to be increasing these em so ossified in a pot. Polarized positions button wet with your own investigations of it. Have you discovered that that there is a shared humanity that can possibly be utilised and can be pragmatic mats? Let that pragmatically the people can connect in different ways or do you feel the.

Is that what we are about, that we going to experience further and further entrenchment yeah? I think it's the tension between the like the personal and the particular and the machines of the systems that we live in, so I took the lazy, different people I'd say everyone. I've talked to. I disagree with on something. some people. I disagree strongly on various things, but it's really really hard to listen to some over forty five minutes. If you're really trying to listen to them and not just thinking. What's my next answer or what's my next argument in response to you and not like them a bit like not see some of the struggle not see some of the complexity, and I feel like- and we know this from the way our brains work in the kind of daniel economy, thinking fast and slow stuff and lots of lots of findings in publicity of psychology says we

in order to kind of preserve enough brain energy? We sought people into types and categories, a shorthand and that's really useful that we what we have to do that, but when we're in systems that are continually encouraging that in us and continuing kind of reinforcing those pathways, it's really easy as really difficult. When there's a person in front of us, a real person to switch out of the your type of person to your we're real person and Martin boo, because that kind of ai it relationship to an eye, thou relationship, and so three trying to do this again and again. Trunk like draw deeply on some other kind of christian tradition of non violence and other traditions of of non violence in like really practical, small conversational ways are just like controlling my response to them, not put my god up. Trying to like stay stay in a conversation with them. It is incredibly powerful and that's when persuasion happens or mine change

so people see outside their tribal people, understand the effect they're having on people. But what I don't know is how you scale that mon on the conclusion I'm coming to is that we need, as kind of a mass training in citizenship, for the incredibly difficult job of holding the tension of disagreement and difference, unlike learning to tolerate our fight or flight response to people that we don't like, or we think, reject us or who question our identity. But we've then got the way. Clickbait works in the way political campaigning. What which is like deliberately forming us in the other direction, and so that intention and attention required to develop,

was to be healthy people in diversity. Is it like? I I'm maybe five percent better at it than I was before. I'm still really shit at it and I spend a lot of time thinking about it, snowfall didn't grasp and all my time trying not to be depressed than it takes such a lot of dedication and devotion. It is for me the the lengths to which I've come to spirituality is the twelve step program, which I suppose is christian derived by explicitly universal and non denominational but like us apart in terms of its immediate heritage and aids, were captured, it bears a law over christine baggage yoke straight up. Christian is that right? I am yet like didn't wanna, quantifying qualify, what we mean by the world and people have got all kinds of

associations with a like a semiotic clear, a bit complicated, but I don't want to deny it as a label. I'm a I'm a big fan of Jesus, I believe, there's a god. I think that probably makes me a christian. In most people's eyes, I'm going to write down trees and gods yet their dingy bomb on the J bomb both dropped on her lap straightaway fail the discomfort in the room, I'm a large jesus and got also was that think tank fear solid, and here it is So the real shorthand shorthand is, I want put this on a strategy paper. Probably it's gonna, be an anti hist for those with an allergy to religion. So the bbc for a long time I have become accretion of later I felt, like my lived experience of being a christian and the public presentation of what christians were like accretions ideas. What was so far part that I spent an enormous time amount of time frustrated and when it was passed,

when appropriate, be trying to get christian voices say on the more maize terminals, we get christian voices that great, so don't try and find one. and they were all shouted campaign so just sounded tribal and off putting all lovely thoughtful bishops I didn't have a mobile phone and one It too, you know if they did eventually get to me in time to make the programme they wanted quote original greek and how Jesus was like autumn leaves something that just was like yeah, so unable to communicate with. Where most we belong, where my generation is, and so feels was already existing, but let the bbc and feel like just I want to close that gap a little, but I want to say like I think christians in particular religion in general, is a bunch of flowers? Is beautiful, enriching source of goodness and it's got some thorns, but we know about the thorns like the thorns the thorns are everywhere. Everyone knows about the thorns, that's what

one focuses on what the thorns the colonial history recent scandals around catholicism, I have a phobia patriarchy, like you name it like all of the negative associations that some people rightly have with religion. I have some of those but and that we need to let we talk about those I'm very happy for those two like I want those to be known and talked about and wrestled with, but they're the exception. Not the rule, like the the the bunch of flowers Self, the the lived experience have lightened the majority of the world's finding meaning. And belonging and goodness in religion. That stories never told. So we want just do great, rigorous search to kind of bust some of the nonsense. That talked about to say, actually, that's good data to refute some of these things or to just balance the argument and then do interesting events and create space to reflect and just become, if not, fruit, loops, you, haven't we religious ways that story not told? Why is this the way?

while we more familiar with the extremity, the extremes, moving christiana Why are we so well versed in your analogy with the thorns patriarchy. There may certainly there what and also wants us of a system for an ideal who system is so hampered unimpeded by such over and problem matic notions. How can it lay claim to being valid ideological system to credibly brilliant and dense questions. I think so the first one, the honest answer is, I don't know exactly why we ve got here. Part of it is that religion is not an exception in the sense that, though- and I noticed from being in a generally stick environment that we focus on the negative in it, there is a negative devising human beings generally, you know well brain seek

problems and threats and fears as a protection mechanism, and there is a kind of reward system in that which you know from whenever there was like a printing press, but especially now were much more likely to click on news. That makes us angry or makes us feel self rule. chess or gives us a reason to judge people or to say haha, you're a hypocrite, and so that may be good may be. Unlovely impulse in us is just fed wherever the media covers, and I'm someone who loves journalists and thinks the media is generally a good thing and most people working in are trying their best, but the the incentives are problematic, so things party media, I think is partly may be- and this is a big story, but that when you ve had such a sense of the universal nature, particular christianity in the west, when you had it, was sent to a story that everyone was part of and like four

good or ill. A kind of assumption is background, white noise and then, when that challenge, in a way that it was in a beginning with historical criticism, critical readings at the bible- and then particularly, you know through the holocaust and the twentieth century, and the sense in which lots of the things that seemed obvious about stopping obvious and people link. These two things, like the industrial revolution, the way the world gets less enchanted and Developments in science, although those often go hand in hand with eulogy actually and there's much less of a conflict them. We think what you get is, I think, Yes, so multi generational, sensitive, betrayed or disappointment and a rebellion against what used to be of the authority and so light back into the twentyth century, everyone's going through university. to the centralisation thesis that religion is dying out? We came out of the, most of the middle ages into the light to progress and liberalism.

I was interesting, I was that's, been turned on its head and lots of commentators are going. Ok, maybe that wasn't wasn't the case, but still that sense. If we want that to be progress away from myth into fact, and when that narrative gets complicated, we get unsettled. I also think, like best just christians have been what human beings are, which is deeply shameful in power hungry. At times

as lots of very valid criticisms and they're all there in the new testament, like the cia, the early church doing it, there was never any assumption that we'd be able to live, as Jesus called us to bot and Jesus was pretty flippin. Tough on hypocrites, but still hypocrisy, stinks and christians are hypocrites. I'm a hypocrite and that's easy to react against and there may be. I think Sarah is really long answer, but I think there is a psychological firestorm that you self in people when you start talking about god- and I became a christian but later, but I remember that sense of I really want this to be true by almost don't want to open myself up to it being true in case it's not and I'm disappointed, and I feel like a fool like the idea. There might be a god who loves me and who, like forgives everything, unlike literally loves me whenever I do and says he's a fresh start for you

such a tantalizingly good thing. There is almost easier not to not to go nearer and when people, when I talk about that with people who don't believe I I feel a duty of care for them because does does deep stuff right thought too. And so they lie. Why do you think as to? Why do you think? What do you think that addresses the idea of inviting? I am condition life at that level of essence. What do you think that's addressing, and why do you think that's conflicting when it seems like a resumption, be something obviously We welcome yeah. I mean I think we longed for. I will for someone to say you, your approved of as well and your accepted as you are like come home, which is the offer of let christians believe, is the offer of Jesus on the cross like come home.

But also the people talk until it could cause. People talked about the scandal of grace that there is a deep sense in us deep sense of justice, and I say that's got give em a deep sense of justice like if things are wrong, they should be punished and things are right. They should be rewarded and And, at least in some theological traditions within christianity grace on does that answers now like there's. No is no select steel ledger of rights and wrongs like what. Office. How have you understand the witness of the cross Jesus offers like wipes out like I'll, take up and then out of the unconditional love and gratitude and sense of freedom. We learn to be better. We learn to be more loving. We learn to care, for others will enter kind of

rain in our ego and our selfishness, because we see the shallowness of the stuff that the world tells us will make us happy, but I think we'll. yeah we want. We want justice. Ideally justice bother people. Do people millet justice for us but partaking when you talk about great evil do as the idea that they could just be forgiven feels pre challenging what happened rose prior to be coming a christian person what type of a person were you and then what happened yeah ah well, I was only fifteen say I had no idea what tampa I mean. I know it helped manner, but definitely didn't fifteen hours will ever my friends were and my dad was like vaguely culturally christian. My mom really wasn't my mom's families and

grow up in little village in Hampshire, near Basingstoke winter Effie college, Basingstoke, mazes stoke with all its roundabouts. Yet I was just a normal teenager. I think, and then a friend invite me to youth group. Could she finds the boy and I found the boy and were very hormonal, and then they, the leaders, the youth group, they just seemed really peaceful and I was a peaceful cause. I was fifteen and am I think, quite driven.

and, unlike wanting to was assault like girly swot in that sense, and was already in that like any to achieve any to achieve and I'm not gonna be the most attractive girl in school. So I'm going to be the smartest girl in school and that's how I'm gonna make an identity for myself and then I went to this christian festival again because there were lots of really hot boys and we went and stood and sat on the skate park and watched the boys. Caped am and then every night there was a big meeting in a tent and they'd, be a talk and go innocent at all can be lemme. I dunno what about other religions? You know this is nonsense and then they they'd start to have. You come come close to speaking in tongues as a concept so

they would they would pray for the holy spirit, and then people would start speaking in tongues, in which point I would make swift exit, because obviously they were insane and then on the very last night I prayed a comedy maternity. This fills proven rope with us get em, I prayed god. If you're real, would you show me and he did, and I had a very powerful exit experience flower on the floor and have since not be not to shake him off. He had an ecstatic experience, yeah, that's a row, sociological term, for isn't it. I realized I've been around universities too much that I had and I fell over and I had a sort of maybe a like a trump state, maybe a sense of the overwhelming of overwhelming love and acceptance, and I stood up different, and so

Yeah, that's where I start from really or I shall go into it mostly for as far as I can gather from pursuing boys yet. Award for this last within epiphany say scandal, a grace hats, fantastic esparza Well. I'm interested in is the interface between the known and the unknown for me, I can early spiritual experiences. Were the disruption of my personal identity say through hallucinate? and the feeling of compound eyes at my call at the invitation of what felt like a non local secondary consciousness occupy a mate but in a way isn't like all theology,

providing us a framework in a language to describe the unknowable as opposed to having a claim on as some territorial I'm on essence, like aid like when you took him rapture their ecstasy I was thinking of that's a bit like some things that happened to me, an acid or the thing that my mate described once when he went to see mood g, a meditation teacher from brixton and, curiously enough, the murder of his sister is what ignite eight, the murder or death in custody. I should say to be sort of a legally accurate law or of his sister started. The brixton riots have gone on become a brilliant of teaching. You might want to see me break them, and he said that, like during movies meditation, a sense. This later alike. In heck. I want to yeah belch, is swear, smash the place out for the one show, except you really doing great working on doing some of our prejudices about christianity, mostly by being vulgar great.

Fine, I can do that and he said tat. He had this of transcend inexperience and expert lack. Any what's happened about this is that the particular friend you know someone there to whom I would immediately a tribute that kind of experience is free normal working class pipe person, and I wanted to talk about this of lie and they sent exactly the same view of over warming. Love and acceptance would like is sounds like you know, no different to what you'd scrubbing. So what's that in a war? Is it other than your journey to your particular and specific janitor waiting to take your christian about I experienced, and do you think that guinea has won the things like or not? May I at the moment he back into the christianity where she seems to be expressing primarily by going down park? Boggy muslims? interesting into tempers like em a night. Let us feel like that's, not the best use of Christ's message

So what do you feel as many people do, that it has to be specifically and particularly via you know him or the thing you know? Well, as long as you paste out, who cares? I have a kind of running back project for some reason. I end up talking to people in podcast who really insect psychedelics and I feel like if we could get my friends who are charismatic christians and my friends, who had really psychedelic experiences together in a room it'll be really interesting to Compare notes on that. So I'm not I'm fascinated in fascinated by what is going on in those experiences. But I've kind of my friend Jonathan cause a second naivete. I think it's poor worker, but I dunno I'm a secondhand quote where I said I became a christian through those powerful experiences and then I kind of developed, intellectually and started reading the bible differently and for a while it all fell apart and I tried to be an atheist and then, when I sort of found my way back, it was much more intellectual. I didn't have any of those experiences they were stripped out and they seemed to be like a childlike emotional thing,

today I wanted my religion to be very rational and intellectual, and actually now I'm right back. I'm like I want to get on my knees and every time I go to church, I have a cry. A handshake am I have a strong sense of the presence of god. Am I need it and what is going on there like no way to hear? I just know that its good and in terms of to clarity of like why, of course, have a christian and why I would want to foreground. Jesus is because a few Jesus is an because of what he says as far as we can tell from the scriptural accounts and actually a sense of warning, and this is why I would disagree with only demand, ready, riddick a chap out and will continue in concessions about it, that, for me, there is something really power.

Good about particularity, about each tradition has so much richness and so much to explore and. you know you could spend your whole life taking the layers of of the onion off, and the personal Jesus is just like a magnet for me

He seemed to be saying something about particularity, something about you about himself, a more row he place, but I saw don't think it's my business or my job to go. Therefore, you guys are all wrong. I think good judges is quite clear that that's between them and god, like I, don't get to judge other people. I don't get to accuse old people, that's their story, that's not my story. I just wanna be wrestling with this amazing book and committed to a community of different people and seeking to learn to love better in in that framework, and in that tradition, and

Because I see something in the cross and something in the power of grace that is compelling and I'll, like a landlord from other religions, are a great chat with one of the taxi driver on the way he couldn't seem about his tradition, and I want to kind of hold those in honor but say something about Jesus, something about him that there's an itch about him that I can't shake off and that I could spend my whole life working out. Why think To return to some who we were discussing earlier earlier, this subsequent institutionalization of that messages about someone wants if it was raised as land, I think he said that there is a corrupt. ray between those message of profits and their subsequent instantiation of power structures. That is like it's comparable.

and when we were talking about the and negative connotations of christianity, the patriarchate impaired, I need to keep listening to the way it's out of order, but if you've made it clear enough, the christianity, it's alright, can't keep going on about it. I bought like a like. It feels to me that, in a sense, the secondary experience of christiana a slope from the pools Christiana a is not Christ's already and like the much of the christian literature I enjoy, not by any stretch theologian and you literally arbitrary to parliament. gonna remained theology from kings cross kings, college london. So you are The illusion. Does that mean I dunno years and says that they alone there may be other. I am a highly qualified because I know, there's different types of qualification to different configurations of the alphabet.

Pressing, but nonetheless from where I sat but still live. when people return to what I think I understand is called first century christianity, s of a return to the values of christ and ease of like Christ, with whom you seemed to be specifically infatuated. and like there's nothing in what he saying that as a a n a y and paves the way for the so problematic Aspects of christianity so isn't there a kind of I also room for a kind of de resignation of all institutionalized faith in a kind of return to first principles, a kind of perennial ism that could be found in the christianity that you're, describing as espoused by crisis literal christianity or like early likes suit sophie. principles, for example of buddhism. Let we're where these things, a line where, like not to in any sense, is that

Deny another person's right to be too big to select a particular path. Wiper. In order that we. Continually, create these battleground zis theological an ideological battle grounds it could we achieve some kind of consensus for as long as we're heading to sign, face. It doesn't really matter we get there and that there is a clear that that process that occurs as religion evolve, see to be somewhat uniform and says more as you said, sin and power and greed than it does about the original. Message: isn't there room a mean another, so they ve been wiped off the white of christianity, where people are now you ve gone too far, get rid of the candlesticks. We need skip it more stay on binding, knock on the door, and let them know that that sort of thing happens or John wisely happens like again again and again, but but perhaps these, but perhaps something

making such about claim is providing a portal to the unknown and providing redemption and providing over women. Love does have a duty to be ten nebulae, revivifying itself, resetting itself, yeah, I'd ally, limb, greedy and I think, It's been like every church I know, is constantly wrestling with this of the like gap between the size of the vision and the reality of all like deeply broken, problematic institutions and the individuals in them. I just think I I guess what my christianity, one of the things it does is. It teaches me to be quite suspicious of my own ability to judge these things and,

Also suspicious of a kind of hyper individualization which says that I only I or only the pure until that individual can access truth and anything that seeks to gather all codify or in a lay down is suspicious and I saw views to be there and unless I now, because I feel and again The older I get the more my sacred my sacred values and my practice becomes about encounter with other human beings like that again, Martin buber says in all all true. Religion is meeting. All true living is meeting that there's something in a proper, vulnerable human to human encounter that is sacred and that those happen best in community and they happen best in community over time, and they happen best in communities of trust that have roots and are committed to each other for the long term and when you've got that you've got institution and you can try and keep it

flat ass possible and you can try and keep it as democratic as possible and as light touch as possible. An inner saw, the crews stuff if the time and then every so often you have to you have to strip it off, but I actually do want to belong to things. I want a sense that. We, if we ever do what true humility and that kind of you know new testament, we see it in a glass darkly and then we'll see face to face. We don't know, there's like this Try everywhere we ll look we're working on hunches, bought that there's wisdom any but an in consensus and collaboration and then in conversation and kind of want to defend the answer as a joyful in a beautiful thing Yes, I thought that makes them do that. You ve got pass no attraction and personal attachment to those ideas and that that you feel that you ve been up for armed and formulate fruit aspects of that institution invalid.

We have you I numbered still. So I think the church is both disgusting and the hope of the world like there is and the simple because for others, religious institutions like that, but I saw stopped expecting it to be anything else like my anthropology. Is that with fragile and fallible, easily misled, and we work the wrong things, and we have a credible capacity for beauty and generosity and. the both things are true, which is why the world looks like it looks and that we need to be yet community and encounter in diversity indifferent over time in commitment? Is like how it how it how we survive that condition, if even if returned to imprison yes, yes, give that, as we ve touched upon, where there was the assumption that progress was gonna, be too

creasy molly secularize society was starting to see the limitations of that the revival of five based idea. in extremists and sometimes again the negative aspects of fife at the forefront, prejudicial or confrontational or self righteous, as opposed to righteous ideas. And I wonder, though it in this now we live. Don't we in a sort of a globalized space this and romantic, if I may say idea of having as a a bounded community a parish identity, it seems like, as I agree with you, that, like with that thing, you said that my booboo thing that relationships over time community connection and in a sense I feel, like I've, been in my own life, trying to create those kind of or participate rather in those kind of communities. Again,

first of twelve step groups, or even something is ever parochial, as brazilian jujitsu provides a kind of structure, hierarchy, respect to humiliate a like this of community values. I feel like all of the eye is. We are discussing, live in opposition, not to alternative spiritual ideologies, bought two materialist and rationalist ideologies. That's where the true up comes from from materialism, consumerism, corporatism, I and the other forces and ideas that under good globalization is becoming understand it. So for that

be a kind of renewed sense of community where people bond together on long spiritual lines as opposed to under echo economic rather than economic relationships. It feels that there's gonna need to be I kind of confederacy. That necessarily can't be denominational because of what we're going to be. How do you achieve alliance with muslims atheists yeah when you've got such a dominant narrative woven and the thing is, I don't know anyone set out to do it, but somehow we've been sold this pack of lies about what life is and what is that population to clarify some yeah? What is it like successor, money, yeah sex in the nice car yeah? I think so so one of the most helpful books I ever read actually was by flames atheists good island, but on anyway, because status anxiety- and it really puts its finger on this issue- that one of the defining features of life is this gluck jostle at this

sideways. Look in the sideways look of where's everyone else where MIKE was everyone else. Where am I in my head? Am I behind? Like? Am I hotter? Am I lesser my fatter or my thin, or am I clever or my know? If I got that job title and all these things, and I don't think anyone actually intellectually a sense to that, I don't think anyone goes oh yeah. The most important people in the world are the rich once they have the people we want to spend all our time looking out and trying to be like that's what I want my life to be I'm going to live my life like that, I don't. I don't think anyone consciously does that, but unconsciously, because of the way the storytelling of our culture works, that's what happens, and so we get this system in the same way. I think that the patriarchy is shit. and as well as women we get a system of state assigns. I see that is terrible for the winners and losers, so those at the bottom who feel like you know they that they don't have dignity because an economically productive or they not physically attractive or than not seen as a winner suffer and they

suffer deep crisis of identity and meaning, and we know that attack correlate terribly with mental health and wellbeing of yours. If you, if you define yourself as a loser in the system, you suffer but those who have won and fit- and maybe you experience this and I read your attention can talk about this beautifully like those who those who pursue those goals and when who get the things the world tells us will satisfy us and then aren't satisfied also suffer because they fill up being sold a pack of lies as well and then often they're, isolated and they're isolated from the people that he could have drawn soccer from and they could have been rarely seen by unknown, because it's in these deep relationships that we flourish and so christianity at it's best and I won't say purest because who can who gets to say what purist but at his best like was the I think, maybe historically the original, subvert or of that system is that the first shall be last. You know it said the cry of mary when she finds out that she's pregnant is, like the power,

will come down from their thrones. That god loves. The reason got him so angry, most determined in the hebrew bible is he's pissed off that people are treating the pull badly and he says you ve kind of maud the dignity of my face in these people and that alongside others. What because I like it, That's present in loads are different traditions and in political movements, and if that, if there was a sense of we could all Talbot, story better about human dignity, but we'll go single playing this game anymore, screwing ever then that will be like a wave of liberation thing. Is we ve though Elizabeth is ass. Quite radical, Yes, I'm what you ve done. There is even a beaver posting if the powerful. I like it when you oppose the interests of the powerful, particularly if it's on the written by something as poland as bloody hell can into one sir total rectitude

absolutely honest, overcome our egos and get enemies, more, I have I mean I'm trying my best to stay at the knees a week and but like it. In the end, It comes less and less a kind of gentle and reflective christiana a in a kite more of robust militant opposition also of Christ as vengeful opponent of inequality in well, of course, as I mentioned very early on, that the principle of nonviolence and the degree of commitment that demands of people, particularly as the terms and the space and the parameters are established by the dominant than the powerful, I mean, I suppose, that's almost autologous but like how do you?

it is an ideal visit christianity ever accessing that level of- and I want to say, lots of radicalism- wasn't it it doesn't. It has black. Historically many of the kind of most transformative political movements have been christian and what light civil rights in america civil rights been. If you look at victoria in england, the kind of transformation of labour laws around animal welfare? Not you know, not least, to the punishment of the slave trade, the complexity that obviously, as that lots of people running the slave trade, with doing it going on scripture to do it. So we always need to tell the story of like this different ways to read this book, and I think that is one way to meet on a bit. So You always in kind of crises and thousand legitimacy, and I guess that there are two questions. I don't I russell I don't know, I don't know how, and I feel this like how'd, you tell a story with it.

the terms of the game, as is currently being played like richard. Lydia I wouldn't talk about this like they did at the lifeboat costs will import the reason the people came, his cause riches famous. We wanted to talk about what that means for status and so flag. What status is doing to us, but using the tools of fame, you say, and so It's not often in history. The answer the christians have had to this is that you withdraw. You say the game is to corrupt society is to like deeply poisonous. The only way we can actually live by these ideas properly is to withdraw and am kind of build up industry whatever and there's a kind of is a contemporary version of that which is a benedict option in the states, which is a kind of real like we give up we're pulling away from society, not the benedict option yep and what you just pull out. You go focus the vegetables in the deep meditation I may truly slowly differ

Not if I thought you said that you like you, don't engage, and you know that anna baptists on the quakers at various points and la mash and brood half now these, like wave after wave after wave of czech, like chris movement, who said we withdraw matron, live with dignity and honour each individual is such or such her. I'm just not convince the thus the right thing I think the PA one means challenging and. But I don't know how you do it. Well, I don't know I'm I'm a massive hypocrite, I'm like now useful person in this, because I am deeply flawed and. so all of those all of those things

what does it mean to try and live a different set of values? Live a different kingdom offer a different story about human beings. That brings hope when you've got such imperfect messengers. I live in the tension of that all the time. I wonder perhaps if there is not an effect in the effect no tension there that we did you just a group. So surreptitiously us Our cling to witness things like a shoplift. Up again I mean if people mohammed cheering, but I've never seen a great deal spanish, so still fully slackened. Assessing the thought that there's no attention in fact all and we embrace this imperfection and the fact that we are flawed in a sense to fortify the idea that that no individual will ever again be the focus of idolatry or a as a present. It A heroic solution: instead, we recognise that we have shared.

fuels and values. God knows how they are achieved or the respect you use the bible. Like lobby, we to override the fetish. Isolation of individuals, precept, brother, having eriksson I'll, be right! Wouldn't it here, that's I would like how I, but I definitely figured it wasn't too too bad was that the decision to extract spirit like you can see the necessity, perhaps for extracting their church from political power, particularly if you're trying to cheat different types of sovereign structures, but the decision to exempt power from spiritual aid. That is a. lyrical and spiritual decision, like you just said, power needs to be challenged from where will it be challenged? A friend of mine said a few days ago in its

when I've been tenant over. In my mind ever since he goes people talking about like forthcoming election jeremy, corbyn and boris Johnson, he goes. He goes on this list. Every a spiritual awakening ain't, no fucking, difference, yeah and, in a sense I'll alive this to her another statement. Aka off of the philosopher, Brad Evans, who hooked me up with this native american, is where he referred to himself. As a er activist who said there seems to be a lot of weight and pressure for us to join the marxist cause, but we see marxism

as an a we. We see capitalism and communism as different sides of the same coin, both presume the earth as resource both of them say like labor, on work as the center of human life's, not how we see the world. So in a way. Whilst there are you know, we are often stymied and stifled by our fallibility. As you have said, we need to be polled in aos and radical as you've implied in our suggestions for creation of alternative systems and structures. I recognise another understand that imposed to withdraw to decide if you too, crazy, the pool the madness of the great war just focus on our farm and out of sight of cotton shawls and what not

blogs and laugh at how I see it is not based on much, but I think I'm referencing the film witness and coventry straight back to the o, J and alike by actually the establishment of alternative communities that are parallel and adjacent to our existing extremist ideology of extremist capitalism. extremist materialism, extreme individualism, stuff does not working for us those frequencies of desire and fear

newly co of aden broadcast continually at delivering us unter unconscious states the kind of unconscious states that can perhaps be a a very eight and overcome fru spiritual practice. These can be ideas that we deploy in establishment of alternative communities that are not about withdrawing but are about the provision of genuine alternative nations within nations yeah one of the most interesting things I've done over the last few years I went to a festival, could alter ego, which is ah a lot of political activists on the left from across europe, so the kind of radical political parties, but also lots of campaigners around psychedelic lots of climate campaigners and the question at the hall: the gathering was, you know what I think, Why, then, is very politically and oversee. But why does the left keep losing? Is it something in town all to us, as you say, answers what what what

as spiritual renewal. That needs to happen internally before we can change the world externally and I think some of the most interesting things that are happening about that about the boundary of internal and external transformation and renewal, because one of the things that the system tell us is, it tells us that has real things like you know, assets and capital, and then there's you know mindfulness, which is what we do to manage the anxiety of living in this particular system. That values us in these arbitrary ways and are fascinated by where those two come together, where so we're part of a church in south london and when we took him, praying with people about the kind of living more collectively and having rhythms of prayer and hospitality. In a kind of you know,

pretty half assed, much less good. You know harking back to some to some of the monastic threads right, but continuing to have jobs and engage in even justin. Welby is doing this in lambeth palace as people that people living for Jan committee in lambeth palace, who still have jobs, but they come back and the rhythms of prayer and they're trying to work out where that mean rhythms of prayer, so I'm classically in in. Trees or notaries and lots of christian communities over the centuries? You would have a morning prayer, I mean some of them have like nine different set surprise if your particular religious order that prayer is your main thing, he might pray nine times they might get, but five m and praying the two as easy, pray but classes, the morning prayer midday prayer evening prayer and then complain, which is beautiful service this about night time and god giving over the day. So these little pockets of reflection in the day that you do collectively an EU directive

and you're out in the world, you're trying to be useful and not just shut up in your wars. But then you come together in whatever way, to pray and to remind yourself and because- and I think I'm sure it wouldn't be explained by this- but I think part of the power of it is that when particularly in the way, we consume digital media, but the way consume the world any way the narratives in the stories about human value, who's, interesting who's worthwhile are so powerful that you need to keep keep going back to a different story like keep going back to those rhythms. A parakeet come back to this sense of there being something beyond this materialists kind of. What's immediately in front of us, keep them back to a story, that's not just about achieve achieve achieve achieve, but what does paste at like what massey. What is justice, and so and my friends from all too ego who were amazing, who are not religious in any particular way, also in knots, we're in sovereignty therein north london and take their climate campaigners, get out its campaigners and not religious, but there are also looking at sang up community houses and having rhythms of hospitality and ribbons of intense nancy and rhythms of meditation

in a very kind of parallel way wanting to say it is a different logic. There's a different story, there's a different way of living, and but we can't do it together, we're not strong enough as individuals to stand against those tides. We need to come together and keep telling each other stock. Different stories are like that. I, like the that function of prayer as providing personal communion with alternative reality. I like the idea of being able to be you know in the world, is a true and participate in fuck, it all being acknowledged as much, if not secondary kind of our other and secondary, not as important as if a primary connection to the source of consciousness or the inner reality

The reality I like that you're rum caravan relationships with groups there are explicitly distinct and if not because in a sense we knock him after luxury of opposition with anybody that prioritizing love one another, establishing communities upon spiritual lines challenging the dominate in behemoths, the salary in out the mice. Let means that the whole duty in people's front deal score a bit out down here. I don't think this is an unnecessary. Although there is in practice it is unnecessary, logical connection between holding two a particularity of a bit of a tradition and

No engaging with people of other traditions, actually, I think most everyone has as a set of lenders and viewpoint a set of assumptions. I see that they come from and some of those more explicit than others, and some of them are more kind of institutional than others. But if you know some social mode might come from a perspective that there's is there is value in all religious traditions and of equal value in religious traditions. Was I my condition opposite perspective that there is value in a religious traditions? I'm just not one hundred segments that there's equal value in religious traditions, but his perspective and my perspective of both today from perspectives, and each of us saw things. The other person is wrong, but we've

we ve taught us how it is if we think someone's wrong, we judge them we dislike, then we move away from them. We can be in relation shit with them, but you know even the christian and vanish tradition and loads of other source wisdom teaches that if we train ourselves that doesn't have to be the case that we can believe some believe something different from someone and work with them. Love them live with them, challenge them. Try and change the world together. So I spent I spent more time and on christians. I do christians go bless, him love christians. Fun non christians more interesting. I find atheists more interesting. I find agnostics more interesting because I'm curious and won't understand the the world. I want to work at what they can teach me. I want to be challenged and like half my bullshit called and. being the adventure of the world, and so just did freeman shouldn't mean tribalism shouldn't main opposition, a cow

I mean amazing collaboration if we just get comfortable with not feeling triggered every time someone disagrees with us yeah. That's a good idea is simple but hard. What goes on down your church, then that you're out on a sunday yeah singing, frame like. Is it really just already differences pastor? Yet, as pasta elapse your book, they ve been used, though they run a kind of twelve step thing in church for any unhelpful patterns that you want to overcome, and those people read your book and found a very powerful set pasta and she so thank you. It's been really liberating for a lot of people. I think, particularly yet we sing and we sing songs with him. sometimes we sing sons with three courts, there's something about music that helps us transition. I think from one mental state to another helps us like open up of airspace to encounter

the vine and then we talk about how we want to live and what scripture might teach us and how we can love other people better, and then we got and have coffee. How long does that? First bit last the singing met? No there's a bit way. You ve got stand you see, I don't say my c. I ponds round at the back. You prance france, I dance prophetic is the origins offices. I I I down and go into that rapture again. Sometimes you have a little better than you that I mean. How do you do in that? The moment which took a lot of hurl front? Well I just have stopped carrying what people think like were relief yeah, so it's encouraged in the sense that, like that's one of the things that can happen when you encounter god it doesn't have to for some people. It never does for some people. It does there's a bit in the news as my pulses

Basically, if you walk in, and everyone thinks you're off your face, that's going to be a bit off putting for visitors, so rein it in, and so there's a bit of that, like don't be a complete fruit loop, because people will be uncomfortable, but as you know, if that's how you're encountering god, that's right, but yeah. It's very in full moon is very little kids running around whereabouts. Is it and how many people go about one hundred and fifty and it's in Stockwell and you're very welcome up might put down the cut grade a lot going to church from time to time. I usually have a good experience in places where the explicit focus is an attempt to connect with god, to overcome self, perhaps they're the same thing. Would you think about the nature of consciousness? I married to a philosopher, so I think that it is one of the

is fascinating debates, and this is interesting watching philosophers when particular people come through if material, more kind of physics, tradition come on the problem of consciousness and all of their frameworks for understanding the world. A suddenly like slightly short circuited and the the sheer mystery were kind of physics and philosophy. End up meeting life he'd go far enough in each discipline, then to just lots of theories, lots of fascinating theories and then kind of scientific measurement becomes less and less useful some of our getting into the realm of faith with things like the multiverse, so I think someone's, really helpful space for us to go well. My blown, like I'm fucking idea in a way that humbles us with our kind of sense of ability to grasp the way the world is. There is good that you end up there. Isn't it back on them back came someone introduce me to them.

sidney struggling to conceptualize. Things are outside of space and time personally. Without me, I find it finds dislike. that's all right, just outside of space and time mount. It, though, problem to your husband, Is he also christians, as you go to church on a sunday? He does. He didn't, do the bear the back? Where that's just you, That's just may the moment. This is when you get back I'm a guy, I think even a bit far back in love earlier Psmith. Nor does it completely encouraging and then you say that within this community you developing an evolving ideas it's his affiliations and split projects and stuff that right I mean That's a bit more grandiose, probably say, but I think many churches are asking like where minority we hoping for while, but sometimes it tastes, wealth people realize

where minority? How do we be a faithful, creative, innovative, fruitful minority that serve why to culture rather than just have a party about no longer having access to the leaders of power, and so there's lots of interesting stuff all over the country and details for such a sum of it, but just The question is: the christianity is often being in a minority in past the world. It always has been in the mind of the minority and so a coat if in the uk, where and what is it trying to model? Is I don't get defensive One feels unsettled in change like take a deep breath, so can be right like what can we do How can we serve? How can we love unable? What does it mean, and so as you're seeing numbers decline in churches. There's a really interesting thing happening that we think, although it's really early days for the the research to be like completely sure of this. But what it looks like is happening is the amount of kind of social action and social projects at the churches are doing, is going right up and said, there's few

people in churches, but each of those people is helping run the night, shelter and helping run the food bank and in a way that, for many centuries, was just intrinsic to people's understanding of their faith and then, perhaps in the twentieth century, wasn't and perhaps a recapturing of that sense of like practical help as intrinsic to mission rather than maybe more inward understanding. What spirituality is, I think, you're right about that and, in a sense, that's what's required within the what is commonly understood to be the new age or higher consciousness movement that it cannot be, or is that there's no point in it being a sort of soul? is the branch of personal well being? If there is no intrinsic service, then what it were achieving. I thinking the questions are some of the questions, or is there a garden and yeah yeah. I think there is a god. There is a good thing, and sometimes that was the reason for tat. There is least one. I have always asking the question from god or in the middle of my own, and

a man does it matter and does it go ahead? affect our behavior and our conduct in the way that we treat one another. That is getting one into the twelve steps. I'm I'm very fortunate to have in a job at it, in that it introduces you to crises, and part of that process is the is ultimately the acknowledgement that the material world he's? Never gonna work you never gonna fulfil you never provide you with that sensitive well, being acceptance in ivory We love and thinking maybe I was scared of the overwhelming love that you describe now remember futile the old, overwhelming love, comes of it near I stiffened right tat. Black brit here is, of course, not course tor yeah. Let's talk ways that was an aids because it is of an annihilation in his ears in annihilation of the self. Is there

go if the loyalty to one's personal perspective, even the center of the self, with a kind of death in it yeah I mean it's not without existential threat. I think, like the the image that the image of baptism is dying and rising again, like that's. What going under the water and coming out is supposed to represent, and I mean my aunt my kind of you, you pick your favorite five of my. if a christian writers which say that is not not annihilation of self, like submitting fully to the love of god and the grace of god, is becoming your your fill your full self. Your real self then fullest possibility of who you are, but you have to let go I mean it is he he you have to ask for. Help like repentance is like the star of the twelve steps right.

I acknowledge that you need some help and ask for help. That's what in some ways becoming a christian is that's what lots of these kind of spiritual pivot moments are, and it requires is painful like we would like to not have to have be helped. We would like to be self sufficient. We would like not to need forgiveness. We would like not to need anyone really It's all those things make us vulnerable and vulnerability is risk and risk is terrifying and and his life you know vulnerabilities life and risk his life and encounter with love his life, but the courage. Yet the courage required is not insignificant. Hey you know the earlier. You may not know she might have gone off in speaking in tongues. For all. I know he said that there is a lacquer equality between our correlation between the scientific advancement and theology. Was he referring to a kind of advance into the

tree or something else which you don't remember just that and to my colleague, nick spencer. Did a radio four programme recently equal time, religion which tells the story of the relationship between science and religion, although obviously starts before either of those concepts was what those things were called and as really good. I would recommend it but he just says: there's no like the idea, the I did was on. on BBC sounds from the radio for, but The idea that size religions have been historic in conflict is just a big fat lie and it's been disproved in an academy for a long time, but it takes a lot. long time for ideas in the ivory towers, to triple trickle down and actually Actually it's been an incredibly productive relationship. Like you know, for for centuries, the vatican was the biggest funder of scientific research is just loads of things that you don't expect come up in history and there's lots and lots of scientists that are devout religious believers, not least in the islamic world, and I am- and so is just one of his like- is one of those particular myths about realists.

in public life. That is very tenacious how those these myths gained such tenacity, canoes being served by this parent polarity and we may be richard dawkins- was not was right and that such a thing, as means cultural means, I honestly don't know I think some stories push buttons in some doubt. Complexion is how to hold in your mind as its new ones, and we. I don't have a lot of energy for those things, and so binary black and white stories are easier to transmit they're, easy to remember, they're, easier to comprehend. So simplicity is often you know, often the enemy of real understanding, but as an homage analyst. I also like that I'm not jealous, but we know what I like simplicity I like when you can boil things down, because then you can pass it on and you don't need to be an expert to understand it, but in terms of big cultural stories,

is it all marina is the ben of ben goldacre thing I think you'll find is more complicated than that. Why is that the bingo there cause I've been goldacre is a science writer who wrote bad science, and I think, if it's more complicated than just and it so happens, it happens with religion and it happens with science. When you have a scientific study and a set of very carefully worded nuance findings that end up in a god bless them daily mail headline that says functionally the opposite of what the research found, because it's been simplified, isn't what I often think that with them with christianity and sunday school like actually I'm glad. I became a christian when I was a bit older, because I didn't get fed a set of hyper simplified primary color stories about god and now I have children and I'm trying to teach them about god, but thing available to me is like primary color. Christianity simplified to the point of it not being in the thing that I want to pass on. Department must protect them from it until their brains are able to hold complexity yeah.

What do you mean? What are the primary colored things that you want to protect them from, and how do you to tell your children about god and how old are they? They are two and five still pray. How it is. to free in november and one half the similar. I love talking to adults about microsoft. He always come like away from those homes patients feeling more sure about what I believe and every time I talk to my daughter about christianity, I'm like oh, no, it's all nonsense. Like the penetrating question well, where is god it? The primary cause of stuff is like colouring sheets about noah's ark, we Noah's ark is a pretty. challenging story about well, annihilation and salvation, but because it's got animals in a rainbow people think it suitable for children

It's not develop mentally appropriate to end these very careful how many takes like it needs to be like tree it with care, and yet, if you go into a bible bookshop every site like that, fifty percent of the merchandise children whoopi about king was arc that kind of stuff so and yeah. Just The theory is a bit heavy because where am I gonna tell my little mabel god such a lovely name, build everyone rage bar. He did want to keep a current issue, so there was about so So my plan is another start there. So there's a there's, a woman I met recently who's been writing a curriculum, called love wins in the states which has been in churches. Naturally, lots of parents are wanting to bring outside churches who aren't religious because it's about does a bit of panic that were not actually teaching children. What matters it because of what we talked about in terms of not just achieve it.

achieve achieved and also in a kind of deep people? sorry way, you're worried about sounding judgmental one particularity suspicious, like weeds seating, moral. vacation to see babies so that that curriculum is about is basically you just talk about, god being love in a million different ways, and that is why for com, talking too much of a moment, Jesus someone was listening to god loves you! I love you. God loves you like the world. Is a wonderful adventure, you're safe ass, an ice messages in it, I think, is the end of the pope. Costs now produce for twenty five cook. I know my children, I'm going to ask you for the recipe cause I feel like my culinary offerings for my children is a bit is a bit stymied. spit. When I was you offer enough fish fingers fish fingers burgers lou blobs of to not burgers behind. I aping mercosur ricotta totally need because it might look. That's a vegetable, an approach.

nikobob the one in it. To me, three minutes, brilliant, Definitely not my strongest point with reminding up. If that's, ok, that's just by eu trinity, Let's say you need all three of them. Have a bloody carrots are alright. Thank you for this because I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed talking to you, I suppose. What's our take home from it, we want people to listen to your podcast, be lovely. The sacred want people to appreciate lydia. and richard I was a year. We want people to knowledge. The love is that I cannot start there. That is not get, as you said, into the harmonically complex aspects of theology and certainly not with children. Love love. Love service is not affecting your behavior. If it's not affecting the way. We treat one another and also quite like the bit where things got radical. That's always given me a little bit of a buzz kid. I've always

I liked here it means he was going to be more trouble down. The line are certainly nice and quiet and settled down in a rural setting. Children so quiet for I know there has to be more time, will come. The time would come. Alright, let's start saying shit like that to each other. It's like sounds like pollution we caught in a rhythm of prayer, if you like. Does this mean that five times a day with no little times with a lie is changing. The seasonal changes think something radical come up for air think something radical. Turn a reality can be realised through human consciousness. There was way that this reality was realized for human consciousness. In thanks in my mouth shut, phil stimuli, hidden refresh ha ha ha ha lovely endorsement. Thank you, though, that could be the grapes. They emanate whoop sixty percent of the simulation and refresh Martha I'll, take those who twitches? Thank you very much

q for listening to under the skin, with Elizabeth Oldfield I enjoyed it. She was a very beautiful, sincere person. She seemed like someone who might cry. I was surprised as as heresy that she speaks in tongues. Sometimes she seems like she would do that as well or the dancing at the back of the church thing this and we need to have some action with the unknowable, the unknown. We too have some connection with a sublime in the divine, and I would never prescribed for the way that we get this academically through any particular theology by african that you're gonna need to see some way to access the divinity whom I am it boy. the old life. I mean what you gonna do just to the porn or eat. Capris cream makes or get new air cuts. You know where it will last for a while, but in their hair back the porn lands at making if it were some cadbury's cream eggs. If you ve got more than five You know, there's a real problem. Imagine eight in one capris cream egg,

five times the size of a normal one. Imagine that that's that, for the amount of is that fondle in the middle of it we ve colorful version couch. You know that cow phil failure in the woods dirty little sugar, oyster or sign up to mammalian this way as it russell brand dot com go back, listen in the darkness, rush, cough or kinda of a bishop, stephen cultural or Simon, am still of anyone. Thea the economy rocket the economy, my coach, he was great, wasn't she they remember and those have a look at money. Youtube show that not too late show is made. As you know, you know me by now. Don't you it's me thanks, listenin to under the skin, from luminary media