Hello and welcome to under the skin from luminary media. I'm Russell brand thanks for bearing with us while had a holiday. I understand you got all sorts of luminary podcast shot down. Your lug sees cosmic milkshake or mystical milkshake. The thing we ever reza, Aslan and rain. Wilson, he he they're they're. Those guys are known both this week, but with Angela unequal, Angela is a writer and cultural comentarios work has appeared in the bachelor current affairs, the irish times, and many other journals I was turned onto obama pope, who is a comedian who works in an old folks' home, is a care home. I guess you call it is pretty interesting and out there character. I like him a lot and then I I checked in about Angela Nagle, having read her book, kill all normals with Adam Curtis and asked if he'd read it. He said, of course, he's read it and he knows her a bit and he thinks it's a brilliant book. The book is about the online culture wars from four chan to tumbler to trump and the alt right

and her Taiwan old leftist idea of what a young left. This should be our by her detractors of that so detractors, repellent detractors words in one of the brightest lights in a new generation of left writers who have declared independence from intellectual conformity by her champions, but me personally offer was bloody, brilliant, thorough in depth book that traced. How Marginal ideas from there, online world have infiltrated what we used to be called mainstream Kosovo. Surely now these turn no longer relevant? Is the boundary started, melt I won't look inside him enough, christa, promote something I am doing commune wellness summit online de pack chop five alongside deep hat opera whim, half byron, K e in many other cases ass this december, the commission

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Whom dine evans said great interview and under the skin, with no grass tiresome. you even mention we're getting her m make enjoy tv. You even go mention the beginning, ray a future porthos thank trusty rockets for interview in such fantastic people, a mechanic oh yeah, Mckenna Kennedy made less, after sorry, I'm I says science is not objective, because what how you ask redefines the answer set with apologies to know, thyssen nazis and beyond you on the euro science size of eugenics, where they say, succinct, observations Sydney in a ceo says, one of the best guesses was nazi to smart people. Talking about anything in order to audrey widely paying us, I really like how you are open and a real human being. Thanks have you He's any actually sit there and listen and take everything in share how you process, we heard all ideas, opinions and views should be shared in this manner. Hi thanks a lot been trying my artist jason nappy ago by far my fav

advertisement, thyssen interview, diet, you are an amazing house, I'm just guided and a huge fan thanks thanks, jason, terribly facet, Jacob Harun goes? Wonderful crossover cross over to great minds expected have expected to see this is so great spiritual person. The sun is likely to have a civil war caution about such a complex topic and then the masterminds, his simply loved interview, loving, come and keep out my front. So there's been some specific, just a raw very, very pleasant comments right there. now an interview I m very excited about, I m very excited, learn from has had a say in kilo norman. is that so many base where it makes sense? You feel confused about brakes. If you confused about donald trump confused about the rise of identity politics if you're confused about your place in the world and the council city, around old labels and old ideas, then you should read.

that book, killer norms and I think you're gonna love for listening to Angela merkel, now says jump into that trying to achieve equality with the entire life in a category. Nor successful, that's exactly right era. Where turns out, they were never works beneath the surface of people. We admired the ideas that the finance on the history and welcome to Russell grand and in this case. And you may go. Thank you so much for coming on under the skin. My friend pope recommended your book and then are checked him of arab countries who re filmmaker, who had read it and his most impressed by you, ah that's great Thank you so much Why help me to understand was a wont

you for the first time helped me to understand some very complex, diverse and diffuse ideas and how they were coalescing into the depths of my stream, polarization that, where sparing seeing lots now, we're right in the middle of of become termed, like culture, water, source of political break down, and one at risk. I just firstly want people to understand: This will have an overview of cologne armies and then perhaps you can guess from their own. In tell me, what's happened since you written a book? Can you first tell me about light, was in their yeah. Two years ago now so kind of-

I was gonna taking a bat and away on imposing very quickly at the very beginning of the coverage of this. I think I was the first point, and to write a book about it. I don't think another book out before it so so when the downside is that in a way the book is kind of message it all seals like? Can it like it election of a vice innovations without written necessarily a very coherent thesis as such it is also not really, I think- maybe, unlike some of the other things that have been written on the subject- is not really trying to produce a very straightforward feeling, o discussed or something like that in the audience. You note I mean like in the way that were taken the far right tends written about ass, like.

anthropology or something like that. You know like, but anyway? I guess it was a collection of observations at the time. Doubt online, so cultures that changing as they do, the time and have changed a huge amount since magazines, in to see some of the major figures, I wrote about anything based chapters on our all candy platform now and they were huge, rising stars I'm well, I Milo, for example. Yes, while I mean Milo had just been, I think no mars show. So that's like me, really kind of maders. When you been on a shell like that, you know and then within no time his whole career totally gone is book, deal gone, wiped off twitter ito and he never really recover.

that either another character, gown mckenna, who prove that one of the founders of ice magazine you, don't it huge career advice with such kind of fun. You know taste, maker, her an entire generation defining thing, and that also to was totally transformed and he he is largely being. You know now got all these cases. Some he's I really struggling, so, sir. Alex Jones is another one you know. So all all of this, the whole landscape is totally changed, but I guess really a try at trying to kind of do it like summarize it or something I was looking at these as I guess kind of counter culture is in terms the way that the internet has had been written about previously, so

The idea was very much that you could have online communities as an alternative than away to real life communities that do have these global communities in people be you know, information will be more freely exchanged and so on, but instead what you have in, these situations is this also a product of it, social alienation, manifesting itself online, yes, One of the things I liked a totally about your book was the not to olaf. of judgement by at least a kind of a sympathetic approach to like two aspects of it. Culture that have become in some. Cases, quite rightly, very much maligned like in cells and the other day

denizens of the four chance space you at least offered an explanation as to how these kind of fun how these kind of factions emerging and, in fact continually pad them with movements like on what would traditionally been known as the left and does not just journalistic integrity oars used, How come you are able to do that? One of the things that because I had actually been looking at that world the clearly for chat and that for years, Maybe it was a little bit desensitize to us all didn't feel like. I don't think it's I don't like really to to. Be lecture to and I'm reading myself you know so or our moralize to in some way,

I mean so much of what has been written about it since had, I think, he's gonna age really badly and actually just looks quite ridiculous. So, for example, when, when all the major figures of of these kind of far right movements, were had already been written about, and journalists didn't have anything left to write about. They ended up writing articles about Like how we all need to be really worried because the firefighters are taking over renaissance fairs, I remember that being one in particular, and I thought you know this is not like it. This is not something most people are worried about freely, but but yeah the that kind of tone of and I don't know I thought that I just saw tat. There was something like two moralising about that town. I also thought you know

then, even though I was very critical of the idea that you can simply hide behind irony Where that you can do things ironically, then sort of somehow accidently end up, meaning them at some point and the person engaged in that process is not necessarily sure what point that happens. You know it is complicated. It was interested as well about what you said about right wing, transgress evasion and how that was approved, doomed, leftist stones or attitude, and that the easy added option of transgression by the right demonstrate it. The our assumption that it was this of left. His position in the first place was always kind over dick. Is that everything very punk about figures like like the ones you ve list it really got Gavin Mccain's mile if something prank star,

care less reckless and sort of like there was the dark mischief in them. He absolutely mean, particularly since no sixty eight. one of the ideas that that was very influential on on the left that kind of moves away from the goals of the old laughed and much more, to cultural questions, it became very clear I believe this is the real adam. Curtis themes are not surprise. It is folly why you liked it puts the left him very interested in pursuing you, if goals through culture and one of the ideas was that you know we have this kind If internal,

colonel fascism right that we need to break down true, you know quite questioning the ways in which repression, sexual repression and you know the internalization of like patriarchy and all of these things have to be brought. in danville, particularly the repressive element too. So lots of different triggers ins in that came out of the sixty eight miller wrote about how the most important thing was, actually that it wasn't economy. It wasn't like trade union or something like that. It was that people needed too. kind of kill their internal fascism. True, true true, the breaking down of all taboos. And that leads very quickly to some very strange places I mean there was, for example, and a strong kind of strand within the sixty eight thing of

where it was kind of during towards people, feel they actually like some other of sexual revolutions up and by Ginsburg and start talking latin ginsburg. Even talking about I arrived here yet It's very hard to frame that now coup, because the cultural landscape has become so anti paedophilia, for some reason is very hard to to reconcile the idea of someone that you know sort of a cultural god like Allen, ginsburg as beings of winners of speaking and. Wesley, a very least about pedophilia yeah. but may I guess the point is like you know, I'm a much a much more incisive credit. I think was that there was a french writer com, Michel kilo scarred mostly studies in time. Late. I think it should be because his work is increasingly relevant now, and he, too, about how the spirit of sixty eight would kind of books.

The sixties would would kind of become the perfect cultural complemented away to capitalism itself because it's so much about the values of actually breaking down all traditions and all an intensive, pure spirit of consumerism. Anyway, but what I was saying the that book, as I some kind of like that, but a little different, which is that transgression in itself, as a virtue in and of itself, has such a fantasized thing- that we are often very on critical of it and very unable to see what's actually the real political content of this. So one of the funny things is that, before I wrote this I notice that a lot of the way that something like fortune was written about and that some of the good

The figure is around at that time are written about, was actually very positive. and the reason was not at the people- writing about it agreed with them. Politically, it was a day They didn't notice, even though. in one case I mean one of the figures had like swastika tattoo, but it's like they didn't, which they they thought. It was all just transgression account repulsion And it was being edgy, and so they were simply not able to see the political content of what was right from them? We use that the kind of transgress the vision the birth by late, ceased late? Sixties radicalism became a compliment to capitalist. even in its early form or no, think it's, regardless of whether it is being used by the left or right that transgress civism easy. You said in a servant, a failure of consumers. Can you help me to understand that more angela yeah? I think that definitely has happened, because,

in a way I mean b. What what advertising is is trying to get you to do is it is kind of have very low to be very impulsive and to give in to your desire site. That's the whole point about rising and consumerism. Its runagate given to your desires as quickly as possible. And to have no values outside of that and you know itself it is an and also building that is signal. Into this, and also to the kind of what's happened since the book came out? Is that I've been an irish but I've been in america for awhile and one

things I really didn't now when I wrote it, I really have a better understanding of now is ass, the last of individual isolation and optimization in america is very extreme Indeed, this been some studies done where really large numbers of millennials, when there asked how many friends they have had say, zero in america, and so you have these incredibly isolated people did the kind of like back in ireland, for example, would say, there's a kind of a mixture of the remnants of a more traditional society with something more some most people have a mixed gender large group of friends most people have a large family, they know their neighbors, they go to the pub with their friends after work. That kind of thing. A lot of the time in the american context, you're dealing with people.

who might not have even talk to anyone in real life. In a long time, people are totally isolated. It's it's very shocking. Actually, and that absolutely is a factor in this. That is much more extreme than I thought those very, very strong desire for community. People are also incredibly angry and that really produces the feeling you gas and a lot of online communities with is the desire to be part of them. People might spend, recent hours every single day. Talking to other people in the same political community online, but day it actually realise any of these things in real life of a few questions, one This isolation is more. This atomizer nation is a sum

and do you since you ve been in america, have you observed it personally abuse frailty, I mean and of noticed it or is it mostly statistical information that sort of makes sense to you. My first question yeah. I definitely noticed them. I saw the figures afterwards when I went looking for them and I wasn't that surprised by them. Actually I, but you know, is good to know. I was just seeing exceptions to the rule here, people are very in Austria, for example, when I used to look accurately the mass fear, the kind of really anti feminists very mean. Everything now is called massage me right, even really stupid but these are genuine cases of of true hatred of women, pathological hatred, women Look at them. I always thought why lake Surely these guys must have female somebody,

why's that they like me, they must have a sister or why friend who they knew and college or something, but actually does true in many cases you deal with People have no siblings bad relationships to their parents, who who are isolated in says they're, probably unemployed, or they may work from home as very often the case in kind of low the text of many cases, they don't have any female france because they don't have any friends at all. So they actually don't have any even real life reference for somebody who kind of human eyes! design for them do so. then, in those instances the mist, journey is the easy, the shadow or the inversion of the lack of love,

their feeling that they can only trends thy law as a kind of a denial of feminine love, because that's what is absent and that's what they require and with that unmet, social and cultural need there is of a necessity to kind of making dynamic through hatred and therefore misogyny absolutely and its. So another really toxic factor that is unfortunately, very much part of american culture is ass. You know, I think it's probably true in britain is well it certainly true in ireland. You know every everyone I ever knew in ireland had like an extended group of friends, some close friends, some people they might just like you bump into on the street- and you know- and there was there- was like status, was never very important. You know, like everyone kind, that I knew growing up, had a very ordinary job, the

The person who had the highest, as was probably like the funniest person, you know into the extent of status, was even important in america if this horrible mixed of this massive downward economic pressure, particularly people got an education, but it hasn't actually helped them in any way So you have this massive downward economic pressure, this kind of currently, like educated millennials, are realising that they don't really have a future, on top of that you have this culture. That's really in harlem guise of any values other than status. So far, in the end, so online world, one of the things you see most often is a resentment about having to compete. Yes. You know like having to be like a performing monkey kind. You know so after they had been, and then they projects this onto women, observing them. So,

It's all about. You know. Women want you to be rich, they wanted joy on this kind of stuff, and it certainly is only through right, like very rich man, yet more sexual oftener than like somebody who isn't bridge but Again, as I say like if you kind of socialize in a normal way, you're use suggest blending in with a mixture of everyone who has. You know the kind of healthy social world in some way. You know that there isn't a situation where one person is just totally. Celebrate throughout their entire twenties and thirties, and the other person is lying, the opposite of that. You know this doesn't want There is much more of a norm. I think in other cities, He stood in america there's this mixture of

the extreme status anxiety, downward economic pressure, social isolation and the threat that the preoccupation with status, which kind of can't get out of because it actually is real. You know it becomes real and the culture that everyone, because obsessed with with status, and then this is incredible rage as they say it happened to be performing monkey at having to take off he's boxes and me. I never have to think about that when I was in meetings and twenty no, you have a vague idea that some people are better looking than others thought, but, like I wasn't constantly putting myself, on some kind of status hierarchy. I will join myself insane if I had been forced to do that and that's what did these people happy? You know in many cases

A- is peculiar that the target of the rage and loathing in the cases of visas, self diagnosis, as you say, perhaps legitimately low status miles, has become not the iraqis themselves, not those at the top of those economic hierarchies in the form of say, wealthy miles sigh but women it Is an interesting deviation. Do you there's a corollary between this, of targeting of these saying that call him. For the sake of brevity, these kind of new right groups, their loathing of the of females and femininity on the left's earlier abandonment of took sofa lies. You said earlier the economic ideology and trade unionism. The countries on the left.

abandoned, say that ordinary working people in favour of a kind of a good. The issue of cultural idea, jeez, snipe and now We find ourselves in a position where the rye is of turkey, like they do. We know. Where is there, even though both sides, this argument took about the elite that doesn't seem to be of any kind of, cohesion is very interesting. We said earlier is all about like a lot of uprooting of tradition and an and the fact that this year did the situation or describing is worse in america than in either of our countries suggests that there is a relationship between consumerism in this kind of personal and saw social and spiritual nihilism a kind of a complete loss of fire the loss of structure or loss of like like deep try bull, communal needs and structures that give us a sense of of honor, I I am value in there so that there were these constructed virtues. This is a a exit

shin of very contemporary and sometimes superficial virtue is different. any sense in that tie right of language that I just unleashed yeah. I know the definitely relevant, because one of the things that the old laughed really understood was building institutions you know, conservatives that have legal, all old fashioned conservatives, value, institutions and kind of not letting institutions die, but he also at some point have to build them. You know and add the old I really did build up social institutions working class institutions. Understood you know that you do so. For example, if you look at some of the big It'll labour battles, as did the most the most powerful

our union is, you know, usually came from places where There was an entire infrastructure like not just where he man's club later. You know the minors are good examples of this in britain like appeal, a band like a whole, an entire town would be built around. You know that the workers in one end, three people. So so there was like everybody was very, very tight. net and therefore solidarity was king much more easily. You know. I think that what kind of happened since is that in a way they we can at last the sands of the value of those things and

at all kind of became much more about individual, the liberation of the individual and and and then, and that that's coupled with the fact that the disempowering of labour and the working classes solutions that labour built disappearing together and nothing really replaced them, and you know I mean really, Jane, has he's gone basically in. It also has been replaced by anything. You know everything bad, something like you know, we were supposed to replace families with community is right. The village ray the child, we didn't really do that either Just some nothing left and we haven't we, figured that out for what we want to do about that. I'm that's. Why you're seeing a return to religion actually I'm, not religious personally but

You know, I know people who were who are converted into catholicism, and you know people are it is about the whole. Can you west neighing and I do see a lot of that happening in part, because you know what else is there there there actually isn't. destroyed all the institutions- and you know it is not. We, then all we have is consumerism and the very alienated site, I'm not for us to say that, of course, but you know we ve been talking about it for some time we haven't actually manage to do anything about it in a sense like agricultural society These were men, a king, tribal coaches, not least in that they were built around our obvious rock dietary requirements, then in Industrial societies were able to somehow mimic in imitate the these much

the tribal communities through union and the could type of towns built around one industry that you described then the next epoch, these technological rival, evolution or evolution has meant that we are becoming further and further most individualized and our identities as consumers becomes solidified and, as you say, there's nothing to supplemented. There is no accompanying. There is no sign of brass band, and on the village green for chad like they a let you can't be, you can't build around it. You can't create something that imitate. You know, even in this time, where we sort of have taught to question the very idea of our universe, so the idea that something might be natural, it seems it something that people are reaching for and that when denied it when there isn't something that at least resembles I tribal community. These, like greece lightly,

is impulses lash out and become somehow convert it to loathing negativity. Seems that there are certain requirements to being human, that of being eroded now to a kind of a critical point yeah and you know you were saying earlier- that the the tone of the book is maybe some trying to be objective or something like that and another thing. One of the reasons for that also is that I really felt like. I thought it would be a mistake for people to. look at these this emerging stuff online and to use it as an excuse to actually do more of everything that we're doing wrong, which is precisely what happened. So you know is not taking any kind of constructive like cause for self criticism out of it, but instead to just

oh now, fascism is coming, so we have to Pull down on every alienation, liberal dogma, we have, and we have to do you notice, never question any of these things I mean. Instead, you have to say, like the reason that these online communities have appeal is because they are actually questioning many things. as modern liberal society that deserve to be questioned. You know, so for example, a lot of the people a lot of people in in the world are not really you know, So, for example, there like deeply suspicious of the government and many of them are very supportive of some like julian assange.

Are there not like what they are is kind of harder to define? I think in many ways and that deep suspicion of the government Us security stated saw is totally justified, and now sometimes that might lead you to conspiracies that are not real but but the the ass to be afraid of and deeply critical of the EU s security stages is is it is a good in parts also kind of the turn away from the desire to turn away from modern society. You know

is something that has inspired. Lots of. You know great art, and you know romanticism, and things like that, like it's not just a sinister is not doesn't need to be just some sinister thing, and so that was More my feeling about it, I thought that you will, in the end, Journalists. Just totally ran with the whole story of of the fire, the emergence of the far right online, and did exactly what I thought they shouldn't do, which was you know now double down everything after two thousand sixteen, when shall repent and lost trump? There was a real possibility in a moment for us to really criticized the whole idea, as you like, the rest of the liberals, and if you like that europeans and represented tat was the moment when we really should have thought twice about that and thought about the idea that

You know liberalism in the cultural realm plus, you know. Capitalism is not actually the basis for building any kind of society, though, and just being progressive. You know, more women into boardrooms, and so on, isn't actually going to improve the lives of the vast majority of people, but then that- and I think there was a moment where it was kind of being people- we're thinking about that, and they were thinking about the ways which trump card of totally disrupted. that's the guy right and left spectrum in many ways with populism, but then I think that allow people use the amount the far right to not to stop that questioning process and always say you know, This idea is now totally to boo anything. You know. I mean

people saying things like environmentalism is now suspect, because there are kind of very anti modern, far right movements that are not environmentalists. You know just like totally ridiculous, like this, so they strengthened all the liberal taboos that were being broken down, which is a real shame. What were they want? A word and these liberal taboos and why is there an unwillingness? Do you believe to interrogate rascality all of that system. Why did not take the opportunity of the recent defeats in broad J election, and to analyze itself, as it were. I think it's partly in structure thing a lot of more left leaning parties have this whole

and an ngo infrastructure around them, like an activist lass, almost around them who will slip, therefore, out of there do what they want. You know, and so a politician will do something that if she knows, will actually not even be popular with the general public and the voters just to appease these very zealous kind of activists. You know around them and and and there's also, but but it's it's a it's is a kind of form of identity. Politics which, this radical walter ban Michael's, who wrote a very good book about this kind of explaining this transition from

equality as a goal like economic equality as a goal to just diversity. So you know, I remember particularly kind of around the time of occupy wall street the progressive stack and this kind of idea that there had to be this many women and people of color and representatives of every group on every panel and so on, a constant source of fighting. I think the rain, that that have limps on, even though it son, you know, we begin see from the numbers done actually even address the problems that it claims to be addressing like it. Doesn't it doesnt clothes you know that the earnings gap between different ethnic groups and things like that, so it doesn't actually help ordinary people who belong to the various. You know ethnic groups that it claims to be helping, but I think the reason it limps on us because It works perfectly if you are

in the media or in academia, or something like that and- and you can kind of system that you can play along with very easily. So you can show you know your virtues publicly, and then you will get noticed. You know, you'll you'll, maybe get her. you'll get things published or you'll, be better, even more well received in something like academia, where the common, it is now so ties that even one you know. an orthodox, like statement, means that you're totally out of the possibility of ever having a career and Those areas, but also we know, just means that people who just want to eat. Oh shit,

Well that they have oh look. We have a diverse panel. You know that at something that they can benefit from that directly and but knowing that it's not actually going to really benefit society at large, I mean one of the things people are talking about right here now, they're kind of freaking out about a little bit is that one poll just come out suggests in that trunk has, it is, is has an unusually for republican unusually high popularity among black voters. Media people just are losing their minds because they're thinking, how can this possibly be that you know, but the thing is, while the Democrats have just been saying very vague things about how you know, you live in signalling all this anti white stuff. Thinking that it will trance

I guess it's too, into pots and saw an all trunk has been doing. Is just the same jobs, jobs, jobs? and it seems like his message, is actually winning because he's talking about a material thing that might actually benefit someone's life instead of some totally vague sort of virtue, signaling. That doesn't really benefit anyone is starting to seem like it's almost not the content. Of an ideology that important and whether your son is that your your ideology is more benevolent and inclusive, but the kind of, but the actual veracity itself. When you talk about Similarly with you, I always say, is that it such a low stakes gesture doesn't cost you anything to say I am up for transit. Like you know, equality across all forms of identification doesn't cost any of us. Anything to say that you know

life, but it does cost to say. I want a fairer, more equal society where people are genuinely represented. I'm forward. I am I'm willing to sacrifice I'm willing to sacrifice what I have, and it seems to me that this fisher that formed and I'll check out that would have been Michael's thing. If you, if you think, that's a good to read her understand it more deeply basis whether the fisher begins when the left to make the decision to abandon were ordinary working people in favour favor of vocalizing

and and damage and demonstrating around his identity lead politics. It seems to me this is a significant movement. Just like the same way. As you said, the part of your feeling about the united states of america is experiential, which I suppose is necessary as a journalist as much as you have to support your work through statistics and facts, never something that I've personally favoured. I say: go with your guts, sorry, if it was right printed but like a button, but me when I like. Look at so

far right mochi, is so visceral. I say like tommy, robinson stuff or in the united kingdom in england. Specifically, you know sort of like football oriented got sea con or placard waving shouting on the brink of fighting. The idea that those men might vote for the labour party seems absolutely ridiculous when once the kind of raw rage of working people failing affronted, unlike men know they don't have access to opportunity that this was a natural labour constituency and now that, now that that's gone there, they have that that whole territory is being abandoned. Know of my person Politics, I would hope, inclusive in black up your nose up because of my alarm I feel like I've ever my personal experience is somewhere else.

I or a parallel like some of the stuff you're describing are retreat from a sort of a culture that is about hierarchies and status and fame and celebrity into a place of introspection and Reflection is boot. Relatives could be my item middle age, I've got family now I lived so the different type of life, but it is also fails to meet with great that there's nothing real in that space that it he's a kind of a choreography, an exhibition that isn't there's no real Value is no real love me a real willingness to turn sacrifices in order to create more fair and just society is just to make superficial jihad gestures that cost very little, and the clock is mostly on condemn others, as opposed to examining in interrogate in yourself myself from because, like that you know I have to. I personally have to stay very.

close to the line with my own morality and spirituality, my own behaviour, my own conduct, I feel very uncomfortable in a culture. This about time, condemnation. Yeah and also a mean most of them, like I mean arena in my experience at least the people who have really latched onto using these kind of. Dogmas to signal their virtue, and so on I mean maybe it's sort of like a cheap day, but in my experience they're all this like really bad people, you know and they're kind of trying do you know it's such an easy thing to do right. You don't actually have to sacrifice anything to just publicly displayed these things. you know so, for example, when I first came to came to america, I spent some time it

in new york, and I was kind of like often among writers and things like that. Will journalists aghast and I did notice- that there was kind of a really unpleasant culture, where every people make a bee line for the person in the room who seemed like the most up and coming in the most successful and stuff like that. really disgusting. I just never experience that before a home, This is not something I had to even really think about you know and again You know, maybe that's the unusual, because it's it's out, it's a place like new york and its among media people and so on, but you know that that the status anxiety e the people have is not just in their heads really. Is there

The culture you know did so when people feel that they have no value because they haven't. You know that they have an express their status through through self through a career a thing like that they're they're right away, you gonna be They actually dont have value. As far as the values of the culture are concerned, I read interesting study and while it which was this, it was kind of injured. It was some unusual in that it was very. It was a very long term. Studies followed people throughout their entire lives and what an lot of the findings in terms of happiness were very unsurprising. There were just think things that we all I have pretty much intuitively know. The only thing that was unusual. That really stuck out stuck out for me is that they said that a lot of the people who really found happiness or be you know we're we're happy people.

We were able to make this transition not quite in midlife but in their thirties. To some form of. teaching others or being involved. In building something you know so much touring or building institution are being involved. building something for the future that would kind about live there so in other words the young, the narcissism, maybe that our youth. It changes at a certain point in our lives and we actually have this desire, and I was weird because I read it and I really related to that. I did start feeling differently at a certain point. I I became kind of less interested in just like You know my achievements and things like that: I kind of felt like a had much more of a desire to be involved in.

some in some way building something that would live long after myself. You know that was not really about me. So, but that's just a wisdom, and we have to learn this now from academic studies, but that's like a wisdom that every society Hey you know in human history has has understood, and I passed on to people, but I didn't maybe something three learn like there has to be a way to to have people involved in. and again, like this is kind of what I was saying earlier, like that a lot of the people who end up in you know on the political right now you know, or at least having a conversation about the main, which liberal society has kind of taken that from us. You know because,

The idea it doesn't really value institutions and the idea that you would be interested in something that lives after yourself. Why would you want that? You know you shouldn't you just be happy being illiberal individual, just maximizing your own liver, You know that is heightened idea, liberalism. Basically people don't talk enough either think about the that liberalism is kind of underwritten by materialism by this or that we are demonstrable ie just in this back of skin. That's! What's wrong also respect people, regardless of what variety of back of skin in, but there is, but the connections between us on nor valuable the groups that we form I need not necessarily be considered valuable unless it's expedient to score a political point, there's something very materialistic at the eye at the at the that places the the visual at the centre of human experience. Of course, we are all ready

here living vat. I you know, I don't need any encouragement to recognise that my individual life is the most important thing. Every single experiential moment of my life places me at the scent: what need to be nurtured and gone, and amazed how my behavior my actions effect of a people where I can be useful to the hull if my life is to have meaning and purpose beyond the from variations of the fulfilment of my most by desires, I'm gonna hafta examine value system that goes beyond that fulfilment? I'm gonna have to look at our true asia, outer, altruism, compassion, kindness again, as you say, very, very simple ideas that, in earlier societies, wouldn't even have been the subject of academic study that the idea that we are not just this locust in time when once your dad, who gives a shit, any ways that we are part of a flowing thing is interesting.

That liberalism is able to even could hold on Why did some of a such as nation, when, have all been hollowed out when everything is in hollowed out, I feel that some. Let them grenfell fire? with such a bleak, symbol of the hello, nurse, thou hollowness about structures that no one can be blamed. No one, though no one can be indicted fur who cause these. Why did it happen that we that now there either there is, there is no end to integrity to our structures. There are no is integrity to our governance and I don't feel the real villains. These poor own. Only on fourchan. king their lives away. In some grim corner, but that too old of meaning and purpose in war, because when you listed on and people there have been so averting platforms and so culturally assassinate, like her

I like milo and Alex Jones and garrett gavin get there there are, is no left wing or liberal equivalent sees it, because that that which suggests to me that that must be the dominant mainstream view. Now you know cause you can't cite eyes of a rat cool threatening figure, you know these aren't people that I'm politically aligned with just to be clear. I'm just saying that it's curious that the ones that disappeared last but, as you know, we're supposed to be attached to always the plat don't campuses and germane grey areas, but by the people, firstly, because they no longer representative of this fish, main stream so of camilla yeah. certainly in here and states the only people the left to get ahead, time and who get, have to deal with a lot of attempts to

you know, ruin their lives and their careers and stuff like that are actually the antiwar laughter kind of like what remains of that and and you know, there's even an attempt to let go journalists. One time contact me and say that this presents writing an article about the connections between opposition to invading Syria and the far right. Ok, he's trying to draw connection between those two things, the implication of course, being that, if you oppose invading syria, you must be a secret fascist, those like what the the The implication of the articles that I knew when I, when I got this email that that that whatever quota gave would be used in that way. So somebody I didn't give one, but

you know that that's just another example of what I am talking about. Why am wary of of how the discussion of the emergence of these kind of political move this can serve as a way to for the system to reinforce itself. I would like, if we consider any other ideas, look at all the terrible things that will happen in all the evil people that will You know that are like the only alternative to this is kind of message, so remain the fact that the anti war left people are the only ones Can't help you a lot about the nature of the system that dominates. You know I mean the whole the whole, for all of the invasion in the middle east or that one of the aid is that

was I remember going around at the time of the iraq war was like. We have to bring freedom too, You know these people, and you know we have to bring freedom and democracy around the world, even if it means you know doing it violently, and so on it already. I did only by saying that I more what they used to say, anything, it's that second, forcing liberalism violently you know actually so anyone who opposes the of the day forcing liberalism on the world too. Arms is a problem. rose, and anyone who questions the basic liberal dogmas at home is a problem I think that kind of that in one way does cut across the right. Let's say you know what this disney

If you know people look back and I think it's funny that we're even still getting sometimes movies and stuff like that, based on the soviet union or people look at north korea and stuff like that, and they think oh, it must have been terrible. live in the society by we. Everyone was constantly propaganda, eyes too, and there was this this one ideology that you couldn't descend from a that's exactly what we live it. Yes, oh my god, one of them Another of the valley, exchanges that you pointed out at taken place was a kind of other as Europe alluding to just, then, is that pure, like this liberal, puritanism, that that it do you think that, given these kind of transitions and inversions that have taken place between what we once new is the right and what we want news, the left I e the right becoming transgress if the left behind puritanic or the old form.

say twentieth century socialism have could have a political clout. Or would you see, figures lot, Bernie sanders and Jeremy corbett as of evolved leftist populists, as opposed to just Revival of the socialists biff fifty years ago, when I guess there, populous, really, you know and YO I hope, all of the wind. Personally, you know I, you know, I think I think the kind of economic reforms there suggesting air. sometimes talk about his very radical, but I mean taking the american kazan, though the bare minimum of what needs to be done? to save the in total collapse, actually because you know, You look at something like like in america

Well, California is the future. I mean this kind of brings together a lot of this stuff. This is a place where that is very woke rise. Everyone's very progressive. but is also a place where you have a very high number billion errors, and you have a shockingly high number of absolutely destitute people homeless, people, and so on and is hollowed out middle in american? They say middle class, but I think what actually mean is working class people who have a decent standard of living, and that is the future actually know. Megacities radical. And no a destroyed working class and In contrast, I know values of any kind to two even help people. I understand

sinister all deserts. You know like because its presented eyes as progressive, like all the big corporations. Now, let's go in fact you name it- are really eager to show that there really feminist they love international women's day, and they were all the rainbow flags on gay pride, is like that. Is definitely any ideology of replacing material equality that movements that were not once kind of like really threatens you know the power of of like plutocrats, basically those people are now untouchable and wanted reasons is as well as many recently does. Not really a very power, organised working class to challenge them. There aren't really any make big institutions to challenge them, and then

there are also propagandizing to the public about shut, how virtuous and how much they believe in a policy our, and so it really does mean. I think that is going to become so ridiculous that people will start to entirely He threw us, but it certainly does gave them a certain kind of veil of live cattle Hearing about caring about equality and so on and thing is our culture warrior like if your main issue in life, is these kind of them, you know they did these cuts aggressive culture wars, then I mean one thing. I often think as I, why bother you know why mother, being laughed at all, actually, because It turns out the the the the plutocrats of western society agree with you. You know they love feminism too

and they do they love having like there. to show how diverse there, like panels, are and so on these current very shallow things, like that's the version of equality that they have embraced. I'm switched ass, the old one, which was about actual material equality. I mean all of this as well as really made me much more. I mean I was always you know a socialist actually from, quite a young age like I. I before I could possibly have even really understood what I was saying that was always my impulse, but I think that my gut was right actually, because radical material inequality is absolute poison for a society like the whole society is poisoned. Once you have that everything starts to break down, and under the total, the alienation that were seeing

all of this stuff is part of that. It is coming from that. I think, is not the right people in overweight You have to walk over homeless people on your way to work in the morning that you are diminished by that. You know what I mean thing. Has you you, like spiritually destroyed by that you like as well. It's not just because you know, you are not in that situation. So your fine, the idea that you were going to have these. That is totally gazers. Class of people living in these gate had sections of megacities. And everyone else will have to live in this when society, basically having that to start situation, simply can't go on. You know. Yes, yes, and that we give us a fascinating peter had a conversation years ago with with p tatcho, and he said that in his experience, its civil rights,

issues, even though they have been hard fought for people have died for them in the fifties and Sixtys and in a with gay rights, obviously was his area of action this is ultimately this the people, his words, the establishment of the powerful, will yield peace at that you go near when you go near money. When you go near their economic reality, then the response is very, very different. That's when the solve the drawbridge comes up and you feel the force is when you go near that series like when you were talking about you know let Goldman sachs, whoever can little happily to do of diver. Panels and have a degree of superficial equality in positions of power as long as it's not actually affecting their ability to exert influence and control resources. This is no problem there. So in this

and one thing that is perhaps heartening is that the current political discourse re e d, the elections in the united states next year and their elections in my country next month, ought to a degree focused on an austerity. A lower costs is continually being re focused, and this is very, very different is difficult to imagine successful we corbians, laborer, labour or bernie sanders Democrats isn't there. But but you would you would you say that there is at least some positivity that material inequality is partly the focus of those campaigns. Yeah. Definitely in its very positive thing. It's such a shame that that breaks a kind of. Through everything off in a way, because you know

It is kind of a separate issue, but yeah I mean there is no doubt that these figures kind of emerged at this time, because you know out of the that sense that people have the the radical inequality and- and that is positive, but you know well, I don't want to say I mean what, if they lose rash like what both loons and I think that possible. I think one of the things is going to happen is that people on the left will kind of. Double down instead of learning a lesson from you know that has a remarkable ability to do that, and, but I do not want

See in is, as you suggest, the end of that that kind of politics, like you, possibly in may, not know big enough, In any event by india in the event that they lose, it seems that we require, massive provision in the way that we regard these kind of division. And these kind of solutions seems at where, where next, how do you I'd like that power, so remote from the people that it impacts and so v failed and obscured the end. Iteration of what's gone before. However, you want to pay. Polite those chambers with whatever hue of people, I don't see how it can deliver on the hard edge of poverty in a way What what's required today, let alone start looking at in practice in the sum of the get it would

earlier in the freezer us a few things. I want to change the way you have. You is the reason I loved this book is because I thought that it was all it's in your analyses, proof prophetic. The way that you charted the journey from these of marginalized online spaces into the mainstream and it's a condition that is only being expediency by the book in couple years, since she wrote it and in the I would say, sidney beyond non judgment or time compassionate tone that you took particularly to the sort the malls. It is of the perceived right. He suggests to me. A caught, the That's where the solution lies in an acknowledgement that now there were there are these online territories where people are fulfilling their community needs where they have no tribal identity in real communal spices them more malevolent aspects of their nature leads particularly stifled as they are at home. I says they are alike.

to learn confessed, tat a in those online rooms in those online world and avert. I am very curious to to hear your tiger notice for we know where we are heading now? I suppose I picked up a decree that you ve just described it. Toby in hell, skype, where people about like aver in the gated communities, are in the gutter by earlier another thing I want to so far in your general direction, is the earlier on. You talked about a kind of you know, a resurgence of religion and, of course, the you know. Those institutions carry a lot of baggage, particularly in extremists, but I will wonder if You types of communities the the revocation occasion of a spiritual life. Particularly non denominational, unorthodox non traditional. Do you think they could play a part

new ways of connecting communicating and aligning with one another, a silver resurgent spirituality. Here I think, I mean I definitely think you're already seeing that I also think but there will be mean. I have friends You know, as I said, a word like becoming catholics, and things like that strange be going from ireland to meetings, people or like very you know, really left wing all from protestant backgrounds, almost always becoming catholic strange we ve got this thing. Catholicism is brilliant. This new thing african elephants just got rid of that. Well, I guess I was thinking about why catholicism you know like What is it that, like you know their own christian. you don't tradition, it doesn't have or whatever and and there is something about well

one of the things I possibly that at america alone, the catholic, groups that are catholic have internal solidarity. Can to the extent that anyone hazarded america you know like so, in other words,. There is an italian community even still to some extent. You know what I mean there and then there's the kind of latin american influence and so on. one friend, I know whose you know if our left used, because inside going to mass, I was asking him about it, and he said ass is and basically like the heat became very tired from the incredibly point, in this world of politics, and that he found that when he went there, people were their families. Everyone knows just being nice to each other. You know there was a sense of community people were helping each other out stuff like that.

Many of you think of the thing I was saying earlier that some A lot of millennials, don't have any friends whatsoever and are also alienated from their family like it is. Quite scaring me. I've had to think about this here as well. If you don't from that world. You take for granted that if something happens to you, you get an accident door. you know what a tragedy happens in your life that you, you know that you have this network of people around. You will take care of you in the circumstances, and you know like People are not meant to let people that's how people are meant to live. You know what I mean like it's, not natural for people to live in a situation where if they die like nobody will find them for weak. Sir, you know something terrible howison, though we completely alone So religion, I think, is definitely fulfilling that role. The

thing, I think about possibly the attraction of two thousand which I've been trying to figure out. Why this is happening? Is that the case insurance always kept appreciation for the aesthetic. You know Churches are very beautiful. You know you will see like beautiful stained, glass and and you're, on your own things like that And it has its whole cult of the saints you know, which are are just totally not in the bible is actually you know just like has no relationship at all to to to to buy the the the the The very anti catholic kind of tendency within protestantism is totally right about that, but nonetheless it so provides a community. It provides beauty now I remember talking to people about doing what would I do my second book and I suggested like I'd, love to do something on purely as a public good. You know like.

The collective public experience of beautiful things like a very important, half an hour which kind of exists like all over the world threats only different cultures and water things people said to me was like that will be just that will be called a implicitly fascistic. Aha, because the idea of beauty is a preoccupation of the ashes summer. You know they they they wanted to build all these grand public things and so on, as did everyone in the twentieth century. So you know, but that's what I'm saying like we know one of the the the problems with with all of this is that when people looked at these emerging communities as they say they gonna double down on all the worse things that created them in the first place, one of them is just not allowing people to kind of not allowing people to have any

to even think about any kind of values outside of liberal secularism. without immediately accusing them of being sinister. In some way you know and that that's not away that I will watch live either, but in time spanish valley. I definitely see that happening I do. I also have a hunch. I've been I've been kind of good at predicting things right. That goes for what about the insulting and in the buffer many years ago, and and and as the first person to write about the old writing. So I think I have a good nose for these things and you know, regardless of whether, I think it's good or bad or whatever I'm just thinking. One thing that I think is going to happen is that there's probably going to be something like the back to the land movement and which happened in the seventies. I think that the I think that the kind of man city thing is reaching the point: where do you know everyone I know lives in it

that was very excited to live. There are a couple of years ago, now, like really thinking about why my pain over half of my income to a landlord which makes my life. You know it's a concept, a constantly stressful thing with people. I think, if you are going to move to the car beside. I think people are going to become more spiritual. All that stuff is going to happen. I think there's a lot of posts struck. release rhetoric that I really enjoy a lot of stuff in food co. That's about or unraveling, historical narratives that I think he's brilliant and beautiful, tearing apart many of the instance the oceans and systems that have been used to oppress people for in centuries. But this, question that there is no universal, that there is nothing that there is no of magnetic. So in a world that we're all sorts of migrating towards unconsciously for me is problematic and let the the

if you don't want to die alone in cells that people want to have connection with one another one to organizing groups want, they suggests to me that there are of light there and political necessities, there are realities to who we are and if you think, the way You know like when you didn't talk about the rights tight on love, left this rhetoric, the universe, stuff around, say, agenda and sex etc like what they recently this biological. Then this chromosomes this shit. We can look, of course, like that. There is no doubt that I ve been oppressed because of the superficial thousand cultural and cultural inflections for far too long, but by decline bring that very there almost is no true. There is no real thing towards waited know. How can you build values? How can you build values or systems or connections or community unless you have a and agreed upon a set of shared values? That is not ok for people to live in isolation, the air that that

ninety thousand homeless people in california is sort of like is testimony to ninety thousand people that don't have one person that loves them enough to know my god. You can't live there under that bridge or in these emerging second shanty towns in the middle of affluence of cropping up new tarpaulin nations. Thing use said about catholicism and the love of beauty their angela. Maybe three that there are limits to what can be achieved through materialistic rationale that that we are not just rational. I go here and I do this and I'll do that a lot. The return to the land thing. I think that sounds appealing, but in a somewhat, in my view, at odds with what you're observing

around I'm not gonna argue with you, because you are spot on in your of a book him for a couple of years. Perhaps that's what we will be doing waddling off to the allotment spade in hand who knows for our next podcast recorded on vinyl or something harder to twigs written down in semaphore, but, like my am, but my point is that also in catholicism, I felt that there is a kind of carnality. A kind of us over the relationship with flesh and blood is beings. sure lies to transcend and relationship with the body you translate as transcendent relationship with time a light. The thing you said about de made me think of york, countrymen, oscar wilde, well, they're unlikely for all his frivolity and we're in the you know an occasional, pronounced superficiality when he talks about beauty, particularly thinking so for some of his letters children's writing find such god, such

deep sentiment, a pat lotta that that the relation in the relationship between truth and beauty, an abuse, see I don't see as fascistic as as sort of a way of standardizing. This is what a man looks like this is where a woman looks like if you're, not that you can fuck off and die you're a bridge, but more of us of a kind of her portal to divinity let's heads the suggestion of an ulterior, world, which we are all participating in, perhaps in out in a most out. In a most being innermost selves, we are not defined by and and by the the so, the pan and gross, but that we that there is a refined and beautiful world. which we are emanating and beauty, I kind of soup linguistic or beyond language version of that kind of us over visual music and there, sir?

they diagnoses, are unwilling to manage. These are questions bob dig the when you stopped It's not a question that I ask is more likely. Empty some words into escape and then pushed in your direction we able to serve. You start talking about something like See it will be interpreted in that way, so absurd that we need to think about, it but also you dont. One of the observations oscar wilde made is that, like p Living in an environment in which man made things are our ugly other find the world is, you know it tells us that man is inherently bad. Basically,

All we can do is ruin the ruin, the earth. You know and that's something that you just imbibed from from you know the fact that. you're so many times I look around. You know like say dublin and there are parts, but where the architectures is very beautiful, then there are other parts, were. I think you know did this person do this as some kind of act of hate hatred of the public that we are now going to be for us to look at this. I just you know, or even if you, something like a meme, maybe more controversial, like nationalism, so nationalism, obviously you know the right is more nationalistic or but you know you can criticise nationalism right and you can say we wouldn't have had various war as a people had not been full of even like now

it zeal and so on, and that nationalism excludes people from the outside and so on but nationalism also is then that well for small. It allows for citizens with rights to exist and is, and it allows them to to it it kind of them. It allows people to be of this in a way range like. Why does somebody do something for their country, example will be something like James joy, slice, Joyce's, was used in ireland as an example out somebody you have to get away from ireland because of the insular backward nationalism that became part of twentieth century ireland- and you know he was this kind of cosmopolitan- why the gate he lives in europe, and he

He he, I was very critical in the way that he portrayed. You know nationalists in in his writing and stuff, like that. I certainly in Ulysses. he's also somebody who loved his he's so much that he wrote this incredible work, which, which maps out every inch of the place, he never stop. Thinking about home He also you know, for example, like opened a cinema in ireland, which is you know they weren't. I guess many around at the time. Name's first, I'm not sure at for the purpose that the people of the city should be able to see the grace. You know cultural achievements, Of the world, so on the one hand he was a cosmopolitan, he did appreciate you, the cultures of the world but he did also had a love of. How could you even makes.

So the an idea like that wild somebody volunteer their money in their time to give something to a people. If you don't even know, if you can't even say what that people And so in a way you know, this is why it is on the right have destroyed, because they are at least talking about that. You know they can say. The nation is the ten that we now pull together around you know and will be united around now. You can criticise that when you have to have something else, you know you can't just say everything is fascism, and so we have to just live in it at all. Chaos of individual. What we'd, which is People have no way of organizing no way of having any solidarity, And-

Let me know way of finding by against this very unequal plutocratic system in which you know, democracies are basically borders and and yet we have no way of fighting against, says you're, so brilliant now can I just on fruit these last well now they might be, they could be termed gear. These actually are questions. Can I ask you them and they will wrap up Angela, okay, what you think about the joker and it's of the way they is being culturally received to think. There's anything signal in that the relates to the stuff you've written. Oh, I heard everyone saying bad things about joker, gets because they went in having heard so many good things about joker.

Because I had a very bad impression or low expectations of it. Maybe I really liked it. I thought it was great, and you know it wasn't like you know, the most profound work of art have ever It was no. It was really good because, actually, I think, would it captures the moral ambiguities you know that I have always found very interesting. Like you know, so he's in the end he kills. People, and he does all these bad things, but but what it shows you through It is that kind of alienation I'm talking about, and also it gives you a sense of like how much how much, pain and alienation can being actually tolerance. You know,

you know an anxious, its sovereign, let less so dark. It shows you know how this person has just You know it is in this status, oriented society and has this low rank with it ass and it's just ground down and ground down, and I just didn't like what we should be king about like why it is that people have had to. Why does the people are forced to live in that way and them and yeah that that moral ambiguity. I really liked that about it. It's not saying because he has had these experiences, then the killings are okay. You know what I mean it's not and when you, when you are talking about political things, you always get. Fact, with people in this very simple, moralistic way of viewing at it. I'm interested, but I like, as that is the moral and beauty and its able to say can be simultaneously true, that a person can do

terrible things may even become a terrible person and that they have also suffered terribly? You know, why do you think you're gonna, so much This is, I think, because it was seen it was seen as I just a fine in cell tutors or something like that or maybe romanticizing them in some way. But you know it the job of artists to be teaching us. You know the public health lessons or something like that. no, it is morally ambiguous and, as I say, I like the fact that it just left us with this problem that, as I said, both can be true same time. You know it's not say it's, not a morality, tell says you know all everybody you some, I mean who does who starts shooting people and who becomes violent and you know, becomes violent, and so actually that's, okay, because they have suffered in these ways. It's not saying that it's simply saying

No, you have this totally unbearable level of suffering and humiliation and a person's life and powerlessness Curiously me, I think it somehow encapsulated the the appetite to repress stories that explore the khan acquaintances of creating a car if people that are excluded in one of the themes that I think is emerging through. Our conversation is that berlin and is creating a kind baseless, the less individualistic nihilistic space in which these pop? the bull that toxic ideas can emerge in opposition to that because there there is, thing varies, there's just a shell there's, no truth, there's no veracity, there's no genuine project except

seems to me creating a world of people that have no choice but to use a phrase you used earlier to peace, pray appropriating the primal impulses and create in consumer culture, where the only expression left for us to me a guy and manage our emotions. Is that to acquire some new product I think about how just yet you can't be alive in the world without it like, if you try listens, radio you try to listen to a pocket. Whatever you do, you will be direct it toward your role as a consumer pray quickly. You can watch this advice. You want to watch this youtube video. Turn on your wireless. If you walk at issue, will I watch football when I thought about how many times during watching a football match, I'm inundated with come logos and commercial image. Rageous is taken for granted that these are the trip that need to be made that this is. You know that, whilst

liberalism flounders to find some depth and real meaning something for which its members are willing to sacrifice, there is this of us What's a second rotate ulterior ideology of consumerism tat is my During the entire experience remaining unaffected by the superficial changes in the gestures around diversification that that that protein continues, untrammelled the interests of the powerful are not affected by the objectives of liberalism. Hence liberalism can be used as a kind of terrorism for the main stream, a kind of cultural housing, because it doesn't impede the economic and power objectives of Oh yeah, I note I mean the d, the kind of fun you know

the liberation of the individual and policy in the form of a kind of tokenistic cultural them city at the top. and totally coexists forever with you know the system, as it is now the economic system as it is now, you know that they're they're non threatening to her. Thanks? Angela now feel like you have given me all the information any human being can reasonably be expected. given of a person over skype really really lovely, to see you and meet you even in this form of such an admirer of your writing and your thinking in the way that you tell stories, I m very excited to see what you do next and read it to see if that is indeed the good life

Thank you, by which I mean the rigid bryce sitcom in which he just went back to the land, grew vegetables, I didn't curse or like criticizes me always when I'm talking about so various forms of utopia. He says people are going to want to do more than sit around and eat vegetables, but he will listen to this and perhaps perhaps he's wrong. People will just sit around grove and eat vegetables yeah. I mean he easily critical. One thing and how it all ended up and how it actually ended up this. A really interesting book which Adam Curtis and I think was very influenced by which is friend turner, and I think I might reference it in my book as well. I remember and its calls from counterculture to cyber cultures, like that, and it's about how a lot of the key figures in silicon valley, the foundational figures were actually from the back to the land movement. They were actually counterculture less themselves.

And they were the ones who gonna build the idea of like being lost a rebel capitalist. You know like disrupting and all I can to stop the that that'll idiocy, that that is really emanating from silicon valley. Now that. Where it came from and so yeah I'm a girl does love to- and I do have to like it too, to show the psych utopianism followed by the maybe the unintended consequences, or something like that and maybe it is just like the endless like pendulum, swings over correction that will just do forever. You know that the terrible will come out, but who knows but but regardless I mean, I just think that is likely to happen, the rises, spirituality and a return to release then, and also people intentionally. a kind of fairly

best way, leaving the major cities that will have an economic pressures. Are there the exhaustion? Is there? Do you know? I mean I say the better thing would be that we could get livable rents. What is at a certain point? at a certain point, a particular anyone political project. Fails people get exhausted by that and they retreated into. solutions that are within ones grasp? You know so if we can't gas, if we can get a party in power, what are going to actually address the rent crisis will just all move out of the middle of the countryside know here. Angela. Thank you. So much is a really wonderful conversation, very educational for me and I'm sure, for ever

listening. Thank you. Thank you. Remember to let me know if all of it on instagram tag me at Russell brand or tweet me at rusty rockets with a hashtag under the skin, will be back next week in the meantime, have a listen back to some old episodes like yuval Noah Harari could listen that brought him isn't that where you could just listen to this one again, couldn't really I mean, did you absorb all of it? Well, if you had to do a quiz now, would you would you think you could competently and confidently talk about four chan coo she couldn't place also a mailing list on Russell brand dot com. So I can communicate directly with you be first about upcoming, live, shows and receive exclusive mailing list. Only content plus have the option, eater email us and get into communications on all manner of complicated, personal issues, let's say you haven't difficult. Your personal life you can just email is gonna help help. Someone will reach out here, amazing that the world's moving misdirection thanks very much too for listening to us. skin with me russell brand on luminary media