Hello and welcome to under the skin. It's going to be a fantastic episode. We got John Mcavoy and John Mcavoy is a man. They was serving at big lumpy prison sentence. While on the inside in a maximum security, prison was doing a bit Robin only discover he is a the world record, breaking marathon distance rower. What an incredible story he's gone on to you. His own example, amusing Mon example to inspire kids and is involved, is a fantastic causes, their help. They were not add opportunism, people there still as we like to say those was in the nine people, are still behind it all space Langen action. All about prisons, what about him a letter, inspire them and help people turn their lives around is a truly fascinating story. You're going to love, listen to John Mcavoy. It's a really unusual story. You can have been two hours into it. He's pretty intense

Brico he's an inspirational character from the gangland underworld. It becomes a rather imprison come on what you want for your money, then this is free. I got a couple of good bits of news for you actually, one is meant, was his out he's doing really well get it getting on audible or carry on Nor do I bookies Dimity Bosnia book. Ok as an actual book selling well pleased with there is in the best seller list is always nice to be analysed. Isn't it So, okay, if you want Also I'm gonna be doing. Recovery live, I'm gonna be doing a version of recovery lie, I would send the skin life is not relent schemes they won't biggest you'll, be like the guests are movies. Moving your problem. So Cape listening and watching our social media fades, information awaken, come and see me live exploring the if personal development self help new approaches to spirituality in ways that we can honestly and humorously change ourselves and by changing ourselves, can we change the world that matters? It really is not a problem at this stage, although we definitely

thanks. Listening to making Jane Crab last week, talking about body, positivity and anorexia check out some of the comments that we had Emily as Davenport says this was so helpful to me. I've never considered the idea of categorizing and moralizing food is good and bad and the effect that had on yourself great episode. Thank you, the alphabet as well. It makes me think about how to have all babies like. Oh I'm, bad, I'm not gonna FU, who cooked up to them the existence of Shit Michigan, Melanie darling goes a really loved rusty observer Megan. I've been found above yours for years I've had my own difficult journey with learning to love and trust. My body body, posse panda, is that full name on fair body, pussy panda and those laws. I have no questions. Save me from a life of put my physical appearance before anything else. That's good, isn't it Nigel says Russell brand can simply read ads and that'll be enough to entertain me. The rest of the podcast was good too, should profess

it's usually slapstick humor has visuals, but the chair malfunction was hilarious even without that. Thank you, Nadia for bringing up moments of humiliation for me and the bit where the adverts, although decided tat really enjoyed in efforts, and I hope it comes across alone rash. That's great thanks. And Megan I see so many body positive. He posted shout downs, how they glorify and a b c etc. So many people still don't care we're more than our physical bodies, but all deserve to feel It's Kaja ours. That is the main message. Isn't it whoever you are? Whoever you look like you deserve to feel good and connected and not diminished, on account of physical appearance or trying to respond to some imagined ideal, certainly physically cause. I think imagined ideas can be quite useful, spiritual emotion, like an ideal of say, pace and kindness? I look at this from Batman, loves ivy. Thank you so much beautiful girl, his word to her words, not mine for speaking on behalf of

as all your vote, your very brave megan? Thank you, too Russell via whenever I try to understand more personal anorexia goes through your gonna, hope Russell. I love you very much handsome man. Thank you very much. I appreciate the compliment as we know it doesn't matter what we look like right. That's what we ve learned, Burma still gonna rush of approval from them. Ok, you got enjoyed your Mccoy credible story on extreme life, a mammal up in the world of organised I'm fine himself start up into a maximum security at our prison way. inside he discovers that he has the capacity to become a world champion. Roma hang on to your hats settle down into a seat strap in Italian, roused by a ticket one day and joy on the skin,

trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of category successful. That's exactly right! We're in this era, where it turns out. We were never the boss, the corpse beneath the surface of the people we admire. The idea is that the finance on the welcome to Russell Brand, the term thanks very much for coming on the show, I'm fascinated to talk to you In fact, since I've known you coming on up, been telling my mates and now arms who can they, Sir John MAC, avoid? You gonNA enjoys Prakash. You gotta check it out because this you know we ve heard about someone remotely He may not let use of getting the hours of ITALY, wrong. This is, however, our understand your story from what I've gathered. He was put away for serious by the time you got Jim

religious and then, when you were working on the James, something was discovered that change the course of your life and is a remarkable story. will you set out for the people who are not familiar with this story, so we can all be on the same page or should I go back to when I was a kid go and then saw go all the way back to em to childhood. One is so of there's been profound, I'm small life, that's his oversee. Let's, where I am today, I will say one of the biggest things when I was a child was finding out by my dad died I grew up in a sort of london- am a mama about me out. So I never heads low motorway, my life as it is as if it were kid- and I thought it was normal system of the amendments- is to bring you up.

it's obviously when you start gone to SCO, promise go PETE, Dodd Peoples uses or tease me that didn't have them that didn't have a dad. What where's your dad and I didn't have one so I went home and asked my mum and my mum explained to me that my actual dad died before I was born and he had a massive heart attack in bed. Next, Mozilla is out my Mama's eight months pregnant me and she explained to me from a young age. What deaf was and- and I saw- I had an understanding that one day I would not be alive from eight finishes a bit from childhood and then that then spark something off inside me. Where I started developing this dish, I can only classes like an obsession as a kid and interest in history, and my mum used to get me these magazines at and at the shop called discovery booklets and every month would be a different part of history and I'd read these these booklets him

MIKE deposited about Napoleon and world. Well Bulwana, my water- and I remember thinking to myself that pay still talking about these men and women hundreds of years after they were dead, and I Chief, someone with life light was that the path They laugh what I'm gonna have they done something and people Amber, dominate deadened on. I was too young to oversee, understand a word, but at word was legacy, but they had a chief, something with life and and the reason on short selling. This is because, like from being a little kid like, I want you to achieve something in my life, What then saw a manifested itself out has been a boy and been love you eat. When you got when you get older you, you always have dreams about what you wanted. And- and I don't know where it's come from, but I developed this obsession with british Telecom as a boy lot. Obsession I'd watched adverts on channel free and then, when my mum used to take me around smile,

is an uncle's houses. I used to run around all the rooms and obviously everyone at at at point a BT landline in a house and then when we were in car driving anywhere on the cat window. Obviously you see these Beatty phone boxes and I asked my uncle one day. I said how much money does british telecom make and he said they make billions, and from that moment that was what my dream was. When I got older, I want each one british telecom am on overshadows used to laugh at me by honestly Russell. I was absolutely driven as a kid too stupid to be a billionaire. I want you to embrace steadicam and then no it's a is out a man come it's my life, and this is why I really understand about role models and good and bad cummings. Your life. I was eight years old, we live the crystal palace. Part route is half his London and this

mind coming to our home and I'm I I and I will never forget to die to die. He he he was. He was immaculately dressed when Mama from the front door and he come in. He had a big gold watch on and just white teeth black hair and are just in awe of him. I was little and he went into the living room and I followed my mom and my sister and- and he asked me to go, make him a cup say- and I was obviously I have gone in Maiden- is copy of give it back to him, and I'm just sitting there in awe of him he's talking to my mom, my sister and when, when he was leaving our flat, he Add me on the head and he gave me a twenty pound note and he was the first adult to ever. Give me paper money, and I was just I was just in awe of his man by and I was out loud. I obviously I'm thinking about going to the shop and spending the money on sweets. Few shares in Beatty for a few shares, are they not that investment miser design? I was most said about buying some my pick and mix it Woolworth's. I mum.

When many left, I asked my mom, who was because no now whatever a man really ever come into our home other than family members, and my mom explained to me that that was her ex husband and she was married to him before she was married to my dad. And she got married to him and she was eighteen years old. My sister was actually his roof data and he come back into my mom's life, not in a relationship in the context of taking my sister out, because she was sixteen and he didn't have a son. I didn't have a dad, so he needs to pick my sister up on a Saturday. He would take me out and- and he and he bumped me up, Blocker was the son of a b at fast cause and what she's money always talking about money, grabs a kid. And it would take me out to the restaurant. and as I've gotten older, I've spent more and more time with him and he started taking me out and not my sister and then he was taking him out to these restaurants and bars with men without fail for fifty years old and and everything was about money, deposit money, money, money, houses.

How's watches too. He always used to tell me it was a multimillionaire when he's twenty one years out and oversee then you're, looking at these people and and now you will people that now I am starting to get more and more drawn to, because my mum was working as a florist and she was minimum wage working in a forestry and these men were talking about a multi million as an flats in the shops. In these comparisons I ran the Mercedes and Audi's oldest at lot. The the things that, when your kids and you want that for owning british telecom southern delight your outlet to get in it is his vet. You, you can see a path. and it was only when I was twelve years old that when my grandad passed away and we cleared my granddad's flat out my grandad at these big envelopes and Iam, I went into his jaw and found this this big envelope. When I opened up and my granddaughter kept all these newspaper clippings and it transpired that my mom's Ex husband was one of the most sort of infamous

prolific arm robbers in United Kingdom and he was a multimillionaire in his twenty one is out. The police tried to kill him to tie that shoe in two times had five acquit was at the old Bailey and And- and I saw I Didn'T- connect I pulled the dots, so were men I was going out with and always talking about, like the hatred towards the system, how corrupt it was, the politicians, the banks and I then start connecting those dots. Have proper soft landing gangsters in banquets, yeah ends and again what then happens may really slow He fastened down. I want twenty nine dahlia. This recital was neighed like nineties, shares that ninety eight night, not night. They are not yet knights have not on and then on and so of I kind of then shot going to school and my afar become my teachers. That's what my forty becomes out, their hatred towards the place and the system, my hatred,

tools, was what was my teachers because they were Meyer, Pharisee announced I turn from school. I didn't have any risk What is your servant and obviously I got cold when I was fifteen river knife at school. And I remember my head of the aim is the vicars, which was a fund amazing man, amazing man, He oversee knew my homelife life was because he knew about the stock as it was in the national newspapers. Any That is why are we going home to everyday smokers? your mom, her first ass, move back to everybody's type. There wasn't back to give up a played a part in manzanita. Taking their seats, must ask that you introduce. You knew tat his face, he s so you but when you young man, who unambitious young, oh you have a sense of greatness, which you can only a quite with economic wealth through you know the and likely acquisition of an international telecoms company, then more latterly crime,

and being around and having those kind of role models and so on. that you go off track. As a result of this tell me why How did you end up going inside when I was when I was sixteen Let's go, I feel, obliged to Saturday I've. I went on board firearm and my my step that found out and hate him believe doggie cipher committing crimes. If our were criminals now would be paid. My might, I will again, because by a gun was just Norma because it was an unknown and my son at all to the people listen to this, but the life I was witnessed, there's a kid that was just a normal thing: people we will not firearms and and our boy for the sake of bomb I saw had one and only right must I found out so he believed to be safer, committing crimes of older people. So I start gone out, since you carry vans, making deliveries to both sides and banks, I'm filling up security depot and then I realized I information on smaller criminals again been-

yes, I realized I was gonna become rich by making people rich. So I went to conspire spots, commit a robbery and the place had an operation me. You can't do that on your only when useless sixteen is over. I was on this point. I was eating and then I got arrested in an ambush and attempted to rob a security van Was it tat settlers say oversee sounds very dramatic, so why not happening me and a friend of mine were we're. Gonna conspire to rob disposed of his van out, and can I've been been watching. Degeneres DNS demolish much was in there yet rep. We we, we had a sum of money with full report. If what what did you again river before about forty fifty thousand pounds again debating is out there before is a million pounds and we partly calls up the night before and the places We must not be wasn't aware, are watching us and in

next morning when we went to go and do it when the van was making to live often gives a Tuesday morning the police were following us: the rubbery scrunchie London. This was just on the outskirts of London and just on the border of London and Kent and the at bay. The robbery squad, but but rat were following us, but from a distance and apparently I finally found this out afterwards. Blair, the and the the people that do like the devialet roadside stops for no tax and stuff in the The road apparently David. During this stop that morning they were told not to stop my car and because it was under surveillance. someone didn't realize and blew his whistle and point my car in and we end not bomb by savage car choice and the norm. Place which ice Nelson and obviously D. They Robbery Squad told the normal place too about the choice because they were gonna choices because they,

firearms and getting arrested from all sorts of angles. Yeah that yeah that's a traffic infringement Prosser about Rubber Post office. They feed the people with a traffic infringement really realized, because it apparently that you go into a lot of trouble because they were told not to stop the car. You know how a parameter silent jacket, firearms in the vehicle weapons and then Jason we are triumphing, can on he's got the car before the helicopter gets out cause. I knew I'd, definitely get arrested. So we we have this Koch ICE and we got way both in India. Can lay and right now we re now we're back insolent and headed in town I was jumping, I've already got offences and at the time I was, I was grossly overweight lie. I never did any exercises at all as a kid at all, and I can remember, I could hardly breathe, jumping I've, always gotten fences and I was taken off my clothes to discard them in a Bush and Nc Slot River and anyway I got to this phone box and I was used to tuck.

Pay for money in small sock, save anything ever went wrong, could always get a taxi to get on. I was always told us at that, Please make sure you ve got paper money hiding on you. So if something goes wrong, you can always get train or more. You get tat tax. However, and I was in his phone box- and I remember I heard these costs great shop and I looked round and this massive guys, Zaka Rugby Private boat had come running towards me with his far em up and obviously I am not making the connections at some place offers a cause. He had no place markings on him what's or ever and are formed. I'm dead, I'm dead and at any start screaming get down get down, and then there was light loads of police thy coming from everywhere. At the time I didn't know that police were light loads of of income and a dragnet phone box, and I firmly on the floor and then they said John Mcavoy you're under arrest and the night shift. While I'm not dead, it was my relief and then they got me back in the back of the police car and then I kind of start to the day. They made it abundantly clear how

information, I knew I was about to cause that moment. I was plead my innocence as citizens. We talking about game fifth box in and of itself, wasn't because I had however, the white, and that they took me to play station and ensure that was where my journey my life then style to really go down and a gesture I never even for it would go down to cope I'll, get reminded, and am eighteen years at that are eighteen years old at the time. But the metropolitan place believed to have such a high escape risk at such a young age that I couldn't be kept in a young. and so, if you are under the age of twenty one years old, you can't be cats. We ve now adult prisoners bought but maximum security existing in young offenders, and so they did so what I called start me up so because it is such an exceptional sacrifice. Category at such an age they added had support, mean an adult prison. So I got transfer to Milton Keynes. has a category. I might they put me

segregation unit there and then they said like this. Why did I do that? Because because most that that was a big reason for it If that is to be category, I you have to do after that. The authorities have to react to demonstrate in the Ministry of Justice that you have, the money means capability will and the access to farms to be out to make a determined Skype to ten from an awful custody and escaped must be made impossible. So they believed that, because it must set that in my links to the criminal underworld at such young age, that there is criminals there, that would perhaps try to break me out of prison It's interesting listening to you cause. I want to level you sound like very innocent. You know like just the young man like it like. You know, then you're just a kid, On the other hand, you had been around guns in that and around crime and at a knife at school that view a blaze of low level cry,

was normalized in your environment and they were few inevitable that you were going to crimes are by the time you find yourself in that position that you were about to be put in a maximum security prison. Do you feel like scared and do field, I am a criminal. How does it feel at that time? You know like again grow up again in the environment in which I was in prison, I wasn't fearful of it, like most normal people, be quite frightened to go to prison because he's a summons I'll have no more to them, I'm having afraid and taken off you, but when you're growing up and uncles cousins step, that to map prison, what alike in prison? What for like when I went in there is nothing to be fair for really I will I will I wasn't get of the system. The system did out any fair me and wouldn't No more get out you bright law, permanent right, look, they're, not morally wrong to break the law, but we

you're growing up and you you have, if you ve got this, you fast this hatred towards a system that, when you can get put inside it, it just increases. So before Mayotte, lock us at my school in Moscow, teachers. Will my system that was my first you when I went to prison is something the prison officers. It was very real lot prison officers, it add reality like delicate at the door, and I represent what system stands for and an again, not my hatred towards them and what it stood for. It I asked me to sit down outside in that place. I go left or right, and it was all about being so averse and CFR is precisely where, like a sweet, compliant that you know, Lou Piniella know yeah, ok, but I was more, it wasn't more physical, it wasn't violence. I was just much more so as I detested the system and I I did everything I could to make it as difficult as I possibly could for them. So I give them my name and address when I was in that they want me to do stuff lol. I won't go to work. I wouldn't I wouldn't I. I was taught to believe when, when you went into those environments, people that that changed

week. That is what I would go up as a kid he's got. People went to prison and turn the trajectory of their life rather went down a different, and they were rehabilitated. They would deem to be weak, the wild and which I grew up in his kids with ease, if you have a problem with, is that I don't feel lucky binary. I feel like the system is corrupt. I feel like the most two four eight does exist primarily to control. I do not think that the state is, currently benevolent paper MIKE. I drove live in England in lie under I seal or lacking some sort of corrupt communist country, and that's probably true, but when you talked about likes of hanging out in South London with the crew that your step dad was. We haven't the guy that we hate the system, then the government's corrupt, no problem. I completely agree with it like it for me,

like advocates of violence or that kind of criminality, but I don't neither do. I think that the state is automatically benign, I'm sure, there's a lot. I know people that work in prisons to really really lovely and oaks of sweet people, but have also encountered pain. for that work for the place that I feel like maybe go. on having that authority in power, as well as people who are the places that really lovely indecent. So you know, I mean is like your journey is a fascinating one cause you come from a position of light where you, as you say, crime and and your authoritarian attitudes were normalized standardize. So when you find you have in a serious situation of a mexican maximum security, prison you can default into are just going to be difficult. Noncompliant truculent little pain in the ass. If a person wanted me, whereas I I stay on for a free now, it's still very scared of Ghana prisoner light. We know the idea of losing has delivered a its scares me

Intelligent I've been arrested and held in cells, but I, like each other, like a doll, I've been told what to do Not being headlights are the idea of light once that's what all this is happening now. The idea that freaks me So you go there. You have light because you ve been of men talk to handle it could have been around people aside. This is how you act imprison this, what to do any, presumably as by even in the place at noon. Keynes present you had the people that you know and payment a new debate ever than I know your step, that, in that you did, I rise, is actually what not happening and what that date that sort of assessor by it she, because as it as a young man in a grand on nineteen years old and you have not men grown men lavish praise on you that you are in one of these environments with them as an equal in a maximum security prison as a kid and uneven prisoner, the street you differently because of it that prisoners it did. They wasn't. There is kind of is on its way Well, that's what I respected you, because there is a hierarchy of crime

in their eyes, in some the old summize, that news ineffable outcome in armed robbery and use the top end of a criminal. That's almost like an honorable. sees crime yeah yeah on this planet so not light not seen financial crime and sex crimes that mass of they arrive, discussed in an ugly offences of libel disease meaner. There is a lot Eyes the myth of robbing eyed man and even to the degree where some of the prison officers used to want to get. When you ve gone trout, I will have to come to you to call and they would want to get put on your trial because it they, more fascinating, maybe gonna try with to a terrorist case labelled. To come and your trout. But at least you said when I went to environment that did it fostered a of that mental even more sub inside me, After a year of being there, I went to oh Bailey? I was in court room number, free and I'll. Never forget I was. I was sentenced by a judge got out and- and this is

trial for conspiracy, conspiracy to rob, and I and basically I got offered I am but a cossutta. It was a. It was a plea bargain. It was just save money and they they offer me this this. This plea bargain and I accepted it. The day was it say it was. I went guilty to conspiracy to commit robbery on that day. Basically, an animal. I drew up, they dropped that she dropped cases where a generally didn't even do them. I generally didn't chase them. They chat. They traps a lot of mods and anyway they dropped these. They drop these offences and then that then I was potentially looking at sixteen years in prison and to me as an eight year old kid that was like the end of the lot. It was that hit me because I shuffled sixteen kills me. There now know all of the property owner served eight years of it, but if that moment, when you, when you solicit it, turns around and says I've never been to prison before to this point, and he says you're looking at sixteen years, I'm like duh can't do and he said no you're looking at sixteen years. So they offered me that

me five years and when I got sentence I remember laugh in order place in the footwear, because at that point I work max. I did a year and awful I a year and a half before be out Transfer me that's what widow and then they move me too, I'm to a young offenders and because their night downgraded me from a category I presume a normal young offend because not worth escaping now. A lot has been said to set a deadline for time isn't justifiable enough had to be. You have to be serving a minimum over the ten years, more sense to ten years too bad just for keeping physical, so much money to young offenders vertical job into outbreak in Buckingham. I was there saving changed I remember, I went on a normal prison van turn up at reception before prison officers. Call me John suddenly is met, boy. I've heard I led. The young offenders is due to worse than other prisons that true, yes, they are that the ice I get why there is a myth that their arms from german test of urundi- I ask me, I'm going to get the hundred said. So

I've been sue for the reception area and oversee baffled genoa spot I'm on the stand army in our day to day to day was not deliberately trying to press the button slots to want me up put me on the wing and and then they come and pulled out my door and I episode five or six prison officers there and they said they wanted all my clothes, and that is Thomas. Did imprisons your clothes and simple jamais neighbour, your your Wigan, you you ve, been classes and this This prisoner, the Jubilee MAO Adult prison is a cat gray prisoner, so we put you in his yellow track. So so the prison officers can identify. it's been a high gate risk of this prison, so obviously my hatred as that is not take my clothes and I said well. We can initiate an and imprison, not Nixon's here when you bright prison rose, so they put me in the segregation unit are winning front the next item on I, and I myself was charged with refuse in a lawful older, so me seven days confined to sell, so you will curtains,

Patients how you got cobbled chair cobbled so bad table a bed and metal sing control it attached. One unit should seven measures. At this point, I detect my clothes, Did I say to me when I have not the door? You're you're gonna go and be a wing cleaner, and I said there is no way you got on that wing clean up your shoe every day and they said I smiled and he said you refused a novel or folder, and I said I am, I said, nicked again for refusing to bear when cleaner. He put me back in front of the governor again. Are you feeling inside when you do no way of making all these decisions, why at this point, is it? Why do you feel that he, your default position is noncompliance? I think it made me feel archive was taking back. Control got some power that I couldn't make me ooh stuff they wanted me to do you feel inside you feel alive. Do you feel numb? Do you feel afraid? I didn't feel afraid I fell. You obviously you've got the uncertainty, you don't know, what's going to happen,

It was only when what what why can remember quite clearly is when I went back in front of the governor. I got the seven days confined to sell again, which would amount to weeks and segregation Day, a kind It smiled at me and said, like Euro economy will bend to the system and he- and he smiled- and I remember gone back to that cell and one thing I did do Russell when I went to prison on a party didn't touch it beginning, and I remember my my uncle spent twenty five years. And I asked him once how he didn't come institutionalized and he said I ll never disconnected from the real world. So he listened right. I read newspapers in every books and I took that shit. You are myself. Whilst I was in prison at the beginning, so I would listen to the radio or read newspapers and I'd read books Library and use the calamity, trolley and use of that site to books off to two books off a week or two afraid, and I remember Quinson debate

I started reading Nelson Mandela's booking rubbing island and there's a passage in that book at Tom, and I was a kid and it was about him smoke, tobacco, Robin Island and he realized TAT the prince if she she was using that as a punishment to take away from him, so he stop smoking. So I, in my mind, if you drink by put me in this room, you're going to punish me I'll, take it. From you. So then, when I asked me to go back up on the wing, I've got a suitable then and enable bit lot. Would you mean your guy in a somewhat amicably and an idle actually spent the next three hundred and sixty five days, my life on earth? I look back on it now like been wretched for hollow back more wine, because what I've done like this year of my life- and I literally stayed in that room twenty four hours a day I didn't I didn't take exercise cause. I use an exercise such as people bring you just get bulls, a free meals. I believe that room you have big is the room. It was about. Six expired, expired, ten foot, big hole, and

I actually didn't know exercise time, so I thought I wouldn't have. Any exercise in Gaza are refused MIKE, says peers on the yard, but this is where blockers dishes. Where am I our second Johnny side of physical activity, because I'm not toppings room for twenty four hours a day, I'm reading books, I listen to the radio romanian newspapers, I start it's. I dont, leave him out right me to do it. I started basically doing they sell circuits in prison cell and I'll get my get this chair and stick to the end of the bomb. The south could see the Whitney's results of its oil. So so you had these little slots that let the air in off the windows, because I was very small, happy the window clips could open to let air cleaner and so to get a fresh, I was there any step up not put much ETA and outside the imperatives step. Pops press out, and some of modern? You know the names of the exercise is beginning and Cosette but even in either I was grossly over white live on ass. I drew a picture of me as a kid you pretty well

that may now over white chubby unfit an artist. It off doing these exercises and not on one x is all off the oven, I'll put it together as a socket and as the weeks and months progressed, I build up to doing not a thousand of each exercise and I can explain to you like it made me- feel like a human being and again, I did its hope, at Nottingham University system, criminal psychologists and who's interested about bout. My journey oversee first- in prison and by my life round and one of said to me afterwards what you actually probably date was again. It was jeep, cheaper, you taking control of body. It was about you saying you can't stop me from doing this, and this is my body and Me for their lives are so lot when I would do, though circuits and that so I felt like a human being. I fell alive scholar, rum, lice spiritual ideas that are about denial about

like the idea of asceticism that the more things that you're attached to in the mere material world, the wiki you are, if you're attached to your reputation what other people think viewed as a vulnerability. If you need food or alcohol or drugs in any degree that these things make you vulnerable so free, circumstances of your life. You found it over the place where an ability to deny sell things and to live within it means and then to employ. in your own kind of practices, your own physical practices was a way of life. Maintaining control of the life also finding a sergeant. You found a different way of connecting with Reality is very really and user fingers. Pies most people deteriorate in that especially not men who hail flight. You know what to think about what endurance means in like an athletic context or even in a life context, but now to endure different situations. I feel our will is that what is is a kind of a a fife, a kind of certainty?

things are gonna, be all right to be able to endure to be able to abide light blue over here, well feel that we should get to jokes. If you like is an important point, is the point where you break some world records in a prison Jim, because I feel that this is pivotal aux. I feel at this point you give me some good backstory and is ass, an eye in you. Amazing experience in these given me a good understanding of where our psychologically, also as some weird interesting parallels, if so, spiritual life, I'm interested in a move to hope we discuss later No, are you end up in New Jim breaking recalled, so it has to go back. By Germany, and I am glad that it has it s a go back, as this is quite important part by it. We can limit. nor does it have to be kind enough to say about the record. Go back a bit. We gotta run on seventy zero cigarettes. Are the record, so that's the way. I start. My journey on the Rhine machine was yet

draws in people going for you to show that they got say because the Asia so I went down, a gym in loud and range of prison, Jim and there Eddie. Might that was a little bit of a white imprison, you only get limited to Santa Jim sessions per week, she get free, viper wing and I went down and the reason I do that is because you can't cross wing so cause there's a lot separation, imprisoned gangs. So once I know you on that when there's no five in and out ass, a safe wing, but if you make swings together, you might get one dying there wondering they restock fine say keep me segregated. but every time I went down a gymnast, this guy Mackay was on this right machine and yet Jim but seven days a week- and I went up to him- and I ask myself: how comes you ve got some Jim and he said on rising gum, some money for children's hospice, and he said if you cited prison officers you want do they let you come down and let you joy of combating seventies waked, I asked that they said yes

and I went and got some sponsorship of so many inmates in a wing. I sponged me a pan, fifty Penzance for a children's hospice in in Nottingham, and I gave the spongy foam to the bud the head of the Pe Department, Craig Idbi Bank. You guy gave me the note, then that was that allowed me to walk off the wing and go down to the gym. So I was twenty six years old at this point or gotten the right machine for the first time. I didn't know what I was doing, but I went through. I went for a process where events happen in my life, where I won to get out of prison and- and I- and I often uses analogy that I come to that point I swear I do want to be a criminal anymore and I want you to change the direction of my life Bobby's traps. I was physically try. Light. I believe everyone in life has Joyce beat. You have choice, you you can gap is. If you didn't want me now, you got some kind of whom we have choice and, and again it fell to me- is not being a crack at it locked in a cracked in and not being I to escape you tryin to get off drugs.

so I was like that. I went to turn my life around or when it changed the direction of my life, but I'm stuck in prison from what I recall she's been very negative. I feel, then you can only realise retrospectively I'd having you another time can tell me that, I know what I did do when I was there station that happened when then, in my life happened in prison, which we go back to in a minute in the next following morning I was seen a communicate and a heron. These guys were talking about. When I got out of prison, they were going to they're going to they're going to do this. This person was a police informer. They wanted to stop this person, and I felt I cannot be around these people. I cannot listen to this stuff. No more and then I went down to the gym now gotten a ravishing and when I first got on at Ramsey at twenty six years old, I remember looking,

Those numbers on that screen and everyone left me alone for two hours. No one even spoke to me: prison officers, prisoners and I it transcended me out of prison, a literally transit map prison. Obviously I didn't realize about endorphins and make feeling good through physical activity, but at that moment in time I just Wow amazing like it was like. I went through this process, he was, I could have been anywhere in the world have been ran across the Atlantic. I could be, there could have been in a gym at summer in the country ran. I was not in prison and the more I done. This becomes a habit and then the next I went down again rode twenty miles and the next hour down twenty miles. So I wrote the first millimeters for the hospice in a month and then awful. If I keep doing this every month, dishes can help me deal with the rest of my prison sentence too I'll get released. So I asked the prison of service of another million suggests, and then I wrote another million free mumps and in one day a prisoner said to me by chance. Even you do realize

five million May, as his five thousand k and its equivalent for Robin from Britain to the United States of America, Quasi Atlantic and awful, is quite cool things as our chief site. So I asked Craig the prison of Slovakia to again. Had you not the pre paid department, and the greatest eject, justly raising money, and I I deeply believe in destiny, and often in my things, happen Reason and one day there was this incredible human bain that that changed, my life forever cooled down. Davis was the aims of prison officer and I was on this rather machine in his Jim in Nottingham as a prisoner He walked behind me one day and he looked over my shoulder and just as I'd finished a workout the screen froze, as he tells you how far you've wrote and how, quick anyway, my god, you are quick and and and haven't yet really an afghan junior imprison you in this little bubble is is not. Reality is a constructed environment in which you're placed in I didn't have

comprehension of what was good and what was bad I'd, never be man. Athletes. My life by sea serve needed more how adult life in a prison and he went away and come back a couple of days later, when I was in the prison, Jim and literally had immunity sheets of IFOR Paper, and I had all these wild and british records, so he went barren winter check out Daniel Formate did all the research he must adjust for patio. Asquith is quick and in a common game in the paper with with all these records on- and I remember the Russell I looked at them and I was like they can't be. Provided you done that five million- I done I've done that for over four million me as what would that war? I that's why you don T an emperor places in the south and what I'd die, dinner, intensely realised. How do I basically welcome? stability in my body, died even though I had since I was a kid got, I was absolutely shit at speed at school. I would another I'm not judging I'll show you Pitshaft is broadcast finishes. I was planning on the phone

the tribunal for each other. Of course, have me, but then I haven't got on a break. Any world records are less impressive and I was I was just a view and batsmen pay teachers. Now we are putting remains on the worst. I have good at nine gets across country ran, relaunch eight and nine football team. I am now I ve opposite shabby kid. They get point go out. this leads to that matter at at spoke. I then I'd Cannot visibility in that prison, german dominant spot at an age when examined airspaces pay I remember going back to my cell and it ican planting the seed in my head and eye for Genoa and the Austin VA contrast to do one of these records and I asked him so he goes as one isn't said: Aaron Davis, Darren, Davis, Asia. He comes back and goes look. This is the what what the records he bought back on Nimbus Paper survey with survey ships every record from one kilometer all the way up to the longest continuous row, and when you look

and even show you can do something I could already bright for very well, then I was all up. I didn't really that's why, when I log on it, they can't be real cause. I was breaking them could break them at that moment and anyway I always ones. Could you break the day. The marathon I was I I was mathematics, most likely Enigma was at this time, so it was. He was always out touching our new, a new bicycle, but by Ryan, the twenty k or the Dutch tight by Ryan, the thirty two guy, which was twenty as I already know that I was already on pace to break that pole marathon, because obviously I was running that distance nearly every single day. So because I was Ryanair, I knew the splits on these. How to just continue the extra so of all the extra six miles and day the one kilometer the ten thousand meters and and he then I asked him if I could do it, he went away and again there was a. There was a governor of the prison called garrisons garrisons was was a deeply christian man, and I do I wasn't. I wasn't privy to this comes as she was only afterwards diamond. Had this conversation with the

diamond said, look desert prison, John Mcavoy idea. I truly believe if we allow any of changed, Trots duties record, it could be the thing that changes his life and gacha. He can do it. So then Darren went away to the people to officiate the records he explained. The situation may be in a prison in being a prison officer. Expat officiates. The records says it would that job normally you'd have to do in a public environment where it was witnessed, or do it in a competition Joe again in the environment and obviously I couldn't do EVA, so I couldn't do it in a public setting. So Darren explain that to them. They said as long as I had two independent verifying witnesses, which would be prison officers that would sit with me and watch me. Do it and just sign of a safe to say you have done it and now I was doing it as a light white man to under seventy five Cato, so they had to weigh may take a photograph of me

cows said in sandal that information often- and I read verify the record- was the significance of your. Why is it these different categories? That boxing is just normally run when it's light and heavy, so anything under seventy five kilos of them as a Mau? Your lightweight anything over it's just your heavyweight and in the disparity in power output is massive, revised. Sixteen style man income in relation to maybe an eleven stein. They got more shrimp and the first record I attempted to bright, was for the marathon, and I remember at two am used to have sugar granules generally pure sugar and cause. I couldn't have energy joust because I was always in prison, so he had to put them in my Bina bottles and soften and which I would eat them and drink them. As I was gone for it is roads, get energy me Madame inside jokes or teach me a little about sports nutrition. Anyway, I broke the first record for mass and by seven minutes and endless off- and this was what the most programme a minute this is with most profound moment. Russell was, I remember when I broke that records.

What I realized at that moment, while I had gone back to when I was a kid about my legacy and about achieving drank my life, I always made that connection between that and money, and I thought that is what legacy and achievement was. He was all the money. He was all that goods and map making lots of money, the more money you add, that was what you're worth was in the world. That was you that was a that was the indication of your success. When I broke that record everything I'd ever wanted as a kid to have. I felt in that moment breaking that record to not be an average day achieve in something that doing something. A lot of other people could do and it made me feel amazing and they want to cry it'd make here he did. It was quite emotional able quite motion a lot, but when I look back on it now it was it was the beaches in a minute that connected Us- and I just felt amazing- I felt amazing, for it felt like I found something. Choir was genuinely good person and I feel like as well, because again it does have an effect on you.

When, when I realized when I went to change the trajectory of my life, I looked at my life and I hadn't achieved anything with what that little boy. When it's there is eight years old, I was losing on an imaginable scale in prison. I was selfish. I was consumed by greed. That was my existence. After twenty six years old and and I wanted support, support immensely and I want to sort of achieve something positive, my life and him, and when I found out, I was good at spoke. I felt that would be the thing to to make me feel like that. Yeah. what what tell me what was justices do to prepare the taxi bit. What was the record previously? It was so I did two hours and for each two minutes nothing. It was originally summer of two thousand and two as for eight minutes,

so I love you and thou. Renewing then that moment, actions finnish needs to fail to support the ten. What happens after you ve done? That was so then. That then really plant is eight. Am I dream I bet that life is there you've forgotten, record books now and stuff. Yet soda is you still will record? The marathon is yeah. The british record of sadly lost all the world records they've all been taken over the years lot, one of them set, one will record for long for the most him at a distance road in twenty four hours and about two hundred and sixty three and a half thousand me is in twenty four hours as a young Guy Harvard University. He broke it by a hundred and twenty seven meters able literally lot to shrikes on a ravishing machine over twenty four hours and hours, regional blocs and stuff that I posted about it and he well in front of me half way say you ready die every day my record at any exponentially slow down the second half of the last two hours, but he oversee had the number two choice.

He knew what my time as parties to any other gave us here. Seven hundred I've Amory a room full of also severely injured. Over I was up. I was what she calls ipo pitchers up of eighty eight, these massive industrial fat guy right is out you haven't involved in Grange. But what that then did that then Spock's, the dream of being an athlete did you bring about like a spiritual light, because in a way right, because we, if we think about the first half of the story- loss people are sub two environments, where criminality is the only option enough it s a social problem. My personal believe he's ass, more of a social problem in individual poem laws boy end up in prison, not oddly anybody, then ends up discovered. There was some incredible gift, or maybe someone will write something incredible somewhat to start a new career path. You hear people stories, people actually genuinely been rehabilitated, although one someone's questions is the prison system

really about rehabilitation because they there, you know economically squeezed local public institutions and our no little prisons are increasingly private and it becomes much more about just punishment. Circle, Jeanne separation, rather than a genuine rehabilitation to your story. very, very rare, but seems to me the like you, I woke evidently you add a unique set of skills that had previously never been discovered and more only discovered because of the denial of options. I'll always said there, John I like prisons in entirely constructed reality. You know cause. I feel that about all some of what once wrote in a book like in a as a lot of their said from the point of view of someone who's never been in prison, there are in maximum security prisons and

in the category Ebay say in to look quite open prisons burgers and then there's just the prison of ordinary life? We all live in constructed. Reality is held together by our beliefs. You know what Russell, while I found that since I've been released from prison, and sometimes I have conversations with people, and I can't believe that I imprison themselves in their own minds. They set limit patients in themselves. So not giving up went when I was in prison when I said that record dream at that moment was to be an athlete. That's it I absolutely haha I do believe that I remember Darren gave me a book called the secret laws of attraction and about cutting negative influence at your life and you verbalize and bullet into the universe. It will come back and I'd visualize every day. I'd be an athlete. I went down the library I started, reading books about what Olympians and I could connect like. I was reading.

It's about these human beings, I've never seen before, and I shared the characteristics or drive the will to win and want to be successful. So the attributes I was a I always I always had since a little kid though I the only people I saw that had those same attributes applied them into crime. I realized that, actually, when I put them into physical activity and into being an athlete that could make my life that was destroying my life, when I, when I put those characteristics into into that world of being a criminal. And if I flip them and put them into spoke, their massive attributes will allow me to be successful, and I can remember reading books, these people and I'm sorry. I couldn't honestly an answer might sound. or bizarre some the payment or listen to this, but I've never been exposed to got these sorts of people before I didn't we I believe regular cigarettes. They will become new people to me like stay recognized, James Cracknell, Launch Armstrong, I Arab, and they were powerful light. I can remember the dominant print of quorum quotes and I dunno to have with our laws, she's career and that by bad moment, Tommy was thought the he was the pinnacle of insurance athletes and diamond printed off a quote about Quinn

and I remember when I do these records that is quite was in front of me. I'd add just I've. Just read is easy, quotes and passages from his book and an end it we ended driving? That was when my my motivation and become to being an athlete and I believed it, and I remember people laugh at me like fobs offences, I was doing two life sentences in prison and they full of it. They thought I was, I I was a boy may lie. I was I was in in the real world and even on my first pro here, and I can remember sitting in front of a crown court judge retired had to saying- and he showed me what you gonna do when you get released and prisoners are going to be an athlete. and he laughed and even me, I've never had any one in twenty years sitting on parole, both here and turn out. As I wanna come at present to be an athlete, and I absolutely believed in every ounce of my soul, the vat is why do we not released from prison and he didn't direct my release because he said my release PAMELA based the reality by eighty transfer me to an open prison

is a partial victory that one when you actually in the USA like we are actually rowing right in the midst of it. How are you when we It becomes too challenging and he filled out a condo, any more of feel like it's too much pain. Where is their resource? Coming from to keep you continue in? What is that that feeling? So at that moment, in my ass. It was all about Nobby Malaysia that that was what motivated me. It was there. There was ever a police officer that arrested me when I was a kid and I remember when, when when I've drive me to the police station and he told me to look out the window and he said because you want in it for a long time and any always stuck in my mind. I always stuck in my mind and I am not used to move.

In those moments of pain on that rhyme machine and I may not. Sometimes it was excruciating pain, but I've always found that motivate me to keep pushing it was that it was to prove them wrong that I wasn't just a piece of shit and I wasn't a loser that I could achieve sank. My life and I could I could- something else other than that, but what I really am going to do might go a little bit too deep now, but I always used to I find physical pain in training. A test slot went for instances for other today, iron man and when I get off the bike, so I swim free point AK or ride one hundred and twelve miles, and then I run a fool distance marathon and am- and if you look at made out in relation to a lot of I'm annexation, quite broad and quite muscular in for some of them of dialogue, as he did did that such is the hottest mundane Jones Rice in a wild, but am when got. My marathon aquaculture run off a bike is normally

unknown we want a quick is mass run, is in an I'm and got normally is that there are people quickly made. I launched a marathon in a man of my pay bays free. I free I'm half of your stand. Now, hundreds miles and another oftener that that's Montpelier run then Germany, and now and again, no our professional men have done the sport for years and years and years and soften that and they're a bit quicker to me running, but when I do when I'm on that run and I get to the back end, not the last twelve miles like you, I can't describe to you the pain, how you start feeling that your body is screaming for you to stop, because I point you been continuously exercising for like seven hours while and you've been pushing your body till I I e percent of his MAX effort. So if you imagine, a battery and it slowly ebbing away of energy? You get to a point where you on fumes literally mind over matter. You are you. Are you having a place, and he said,

only time where I fill one with my body. It's amazing got you. You go for this process. I ask this to an athlete de diamond slight yoke. Yuki shut internalized, your whole body just seems to sink and then you can even notice it should not when ebbing away and you have to take aka, take caffeine, Joe and the minute you hit you take in and you can fill it in your body. You can fill it poldie energy out and it is He just filled. It was amazing, I feel my mind and body a one, but I only comes from saw a push him a body that half the pain, but I find that very if he's right, you enjoy that stay of total awareness that we must have started exploring when you do an imperfect sale by that Louis event say yesterday. When Donna Jim to import ups right when it like a cease. By band mark you like when it gets to like on the third set. Six

I see two hearts, I feel at women Finally, our comes like a physical failure. I hate that feeling and fill out the rest, body is continuing to try and do it. I don't feel like I can reach into a deep a thing and transfer it to the body giving these different when you're working for strength, increasing thing yeah I do I do, I think, is a thing of, but which is very much more, is more than the mind and spirituality lied treat lightly, because what is your guy is the point? since you ve got a lot of time to analyze where Europe. So when you do and drew in sport, for instance, you can vote belies what you're doing so when I do share training is a serious issue is, is anaerobic. Sought by my bank You ve already got time for that self awareness to talk yourself for it. Boffin before you get rid of us I say: failure. I don't really like to use the weather average growth is an area of growth, but you can always improve. So you need to find that point away. You can't go any further.

today incurs. Then you can grow from that, and you know what your limit saw through the gray. Will you can and push for it the next time it next time, I it is all about strategies in the way I solved. Why cope with with pushing my body that hard for that period, on basic Asia is an amazing journey, so you Norman Tonic What about competing with other people? And neither are you actually cutting off from your body? It's not like you're going right, just keep going, and you know these feelings in the body you entirely go into it and from entirely gone into and accepting it you kind jewelry. I don't even care where I light. I remember when I raised last year in evidence has running annexes, I'm guy- and he couldn't speak english goodwill. We run the next job on the method and he's garment, packed up, and he asked me what Iranian and I am- and I told him I quit we're running that point me running, not just under a sub paragraph and moose boot, pretty about twenty kite and at the moment. But up to that point, is this disorder

I didn't care, are the other honestly, I'm very competitive, but I mean that motor then suddenly, when you get to it, just soul goes out to begin I shall come as you. I want to finish his high can inside the Eu it's moment of suffering of another human being identical bouts of pain, basically you're pushing your body a day, identical to matter at the same rate, and when, when I said to him about how quick we are running, cause he's gone and broke, it is a his mind, went and shot because he didn't think he could run that fast. He was over a four. He was running because he didn't obviously or that they might not find his body. They just demonstrate to me psychologically the impact that had in a minute. I gave him an awareness of the running spade. He just stopped. When he was running that place before I call him, and he was running next to me. apple pie and you any anything. Quite finally can be great english use broken, but he didn't seem like you, there real distress and he said

Can we run the nos at that and then literally just stopped as I awoken that unleash something? That's fascinate him to tell me. What are you planning to do now? You find yourself in issues like us deserves a little below Bates and mystery missed out, because you went from doing that five year to a double life sentence, wipe in there so I went when I got really from prison. When I was a kid I may not come out NOS twenty, and I was out for two years and I was living so of defamation. I was even worse. Prison might be even worse when I got released and I was even more driven to make more money, I was even more consumed by the grade. My criminal network grew even more because when I was in prison with serious criminals that were from the continent, I went out to the Netherlands, and then I went down to Spain, and so when I was down now just lead in that tipper coexistence of a criminal, I know we satisfied that drug drinkin pine in access his escape for reality, because you know what's coming

anyone can climb in a self. Conscious knows, eventually the doors gonna come through and you're gonna go back to prison, then? What are you gonna die young, and I remember my mama said to me tat. I was living life in the fast line. Ass. She went you will crash and ambition and never say you mom. By going for you, man knows what you're talking about but she was a hundred percent right, and I am I come back to United Kingdom for a week for a party cause. I had no intention to deliver ever again and and I walked into a surveillance operation with another guy, and he asked me what's coming However, if women are great and widened ACC at a hundred man, police events, operation watching him, and I am and again arrested within the following day, but Russell it was the best decision. And I've have I ever made in my life even says that I was the best decision I ever chose to make that day, agreeing to do that vim and getting arrested and going to prison and getting the two life sentences and because a changed it made me the person I am today had it,

you end up not serving all that time will have him. So when, when I, when I first arrested, I basically they really did change the guy in the second time like that, be what they cost and as a double category I am high school was prisoner, so I couldn't be kept, so my Skype had to be made possible again Betty some, this a grown man- tat- was twenty two years out, so I can be kept in normal prison gum environments So they kept me on somebody called a h, a shoe which is a high security prison unit in Belmarsh prison and is a prison within a prison. And when you traveled outside Cole, you had to go from place to stop people from trying to bite you at the prison Van and am when, when I get to belmarsh nighttime and they said you're gone on, says, if you're sharing that explain to me why it was so at that moment in time there was ninety thousand prisoners in prison, the United Kingdom and out that there was only twenty eight of us that were deemed to be such a high skate risk meeting. We couldn't be kept that wasn't because I too

beyond this unit. You again, you have to have the money to make a capability and determination to escape from awful Cassio of our french National security. I wasn't effect such as Cuba should not take Gama full boxes and in half Mule vague about the of names and affiliations of your early life is that our respect it's cause. My life moved on either know what these people do with their lives anymore. I I don't know I don't know I've got winners have disconnected I disconnected when I was in prison, which was like I got released in two thousand and twelve and are not disconnected in two thousand and nine. When I went through the process of of all records they run these people, I'm a few to be alike of nine thousand prisoners on a list of twenty eight after him. There s luck connection, like pre, meaningful, because I found imagine therefore that too many people the admission arrested appeal that twenty eight is normally the terrible Asia Connect.

And so, when I went on, civilian and organised crime needs some. So when I went onto the arm the hedge issue, there is basically the twenty one: seven suicide bombers, unshakeable homes. That was finally tradition to the America, and I was another other gone at just committed as a contract matter and I remember when they said Uganda, cheese, h, you're sharing a and then they took me across the prisoners Lit Van and and it is the most we used to call it a batcave. There was no natural light, it was it was. He was like a bunker that anybody can really explain it like on the exercise yard. There is so much anti helicopter Wire and Iraq. Visa is a hamster cage. Does that make sense that you look up and you could see describe it was how heavily netted we've we've Anti helicopter, while that you, you could see the sky, but just he was still it felt. Like was

inside and the prison officer said to me. He knew of his yacht, been in the police station for three days and he said: look you've got a decision, you have a banger or you go out and take exercise. You only get exercise for like forty five minutes a day, so I said, ok I'll, take the exercise. Se took me out and then oh the doors in his unit, there's no case all electronic gates, because she can't take hostages got from the prison officers, and so were locked doors and and they want you downstairs in ITALY, you had this fading light use outside because the air temperature changed. But when I looked up again, you got this this this this corridor, when you're out saw Bay's oldest and he had a cop to wire and then atop, and then they walk you out to the shower and as a prison officer standing designed a box, he couldn't get to him and a precious electric gate and opened and I walked onto the shard and in a block I said I I will hums Ivan and its many months answers seven suicide bombers in an awful. I am a lot of trouble like

I know I know daddy was going to absolutely hammer me when, when I when I went to Cope- and they kept me on that unit for two and a half years- and I went back for the process- the journey of the the cell circuits, the reading books, I thought I was going to get off at one point and anywhere where I went to trial. and just for mature, were I not Don Quixote Zanu the evidence was overwhelming and and I remember Marsalis AIR said to me before we went up to get sentence, even though I'm not going to lie, he went, I think, they're going to throw the book at you because you're so young and I went okay. What do you reckon I'm gonna get anywhere, there's a good chance, a fifty fifty you might get life and I was like okay and then, when, when I went up to cope there was one place. I saw the court and stuff I and the judge told me to stand and the moment he saw talking begin, and I know he was going to have a time yeah he he basically what people

Ray Unsound, even the prison officers was actually quite surprised by the length of how long I got four wives convicted of crimes conspiracy, that was not actually nothing happened. It was homesick, yet it was a plant in planning and any any better stating that my colleagues to criminal underworld, precise sensitive, such young age, I would at previous convictions for conspiracy to rob and he believed that always positive dangers to the public and my that that risk risks being the guy it. So he said under sentence you to life imprisonment, with a minimum tariff of five years. So what you said was he was gonna give me a fixed term that die fixed time. Cyprus. It got twenty years, He would have given me ten years in prison base because gonna give you a life sentence ominous set the tariff five years, so I Seven minimum of five years for can ever be considered to be released, but no one gets out when you, since the life they know, well get out inhumane and tariff because, basically, not now, for instance,

I'm serving the remainder, my sentence in the community, so I served I say just over eight years of that five is certainly not literally prisons. I and I, and a half years, just on line two and a half in that hs you your nightmare and then subsequent. Where was then it was law and I was catching them a maximum security prison in Yorkshire for certain it was cold and I got transferred out there. so another prison in Nottingham and it now got for semi open prison. the remaining year in a bit in an open prison. So when night, and I got the lesson is: is yet it every very harsh for today, but for the entire users, the conventional views that such harsh and is a me it out for the type of crime that feels like in a sort of a friend to the establishment meaner like in gang land type crimes are punished severely because is considered a threat,

even I always thought not known- was murdered nothing, gruesome or graphic or off weapons. Vice power instead of send a sign that that kind of would have to the world of organized crime. If you are core is gonna, be tough about long sentences is out yeah yeah totally like, but what deck and like, if you, if you go, if you go to Kuala a maximum security prisons, is the guys that serve in the biggest prison sentences. You tend to normally find they've been there for armed robbery or drug traffic easy your serving the same still then. Yes the community? How? Where is the person like when you also of light overseas- discovered this abilities gift in yourself Anna is awake and they knew a kind of a spiritual awareness or eighty cents, and when is it seem like it was present evening discontentment when you were little kid in your Sosenza. There is more to life than

you know what is obviously, as you tell the story now, you are able to rich respectively, trace back that awareness. But where do you feel like having had such a hard time at the hands of the system, your willingly take personal responsibility for a long time. So, if you are our crops, sire I'm not at varying in my last, I because I feel like having I've seen it. Why am I witnessed here? I've seen it with people that the only person that negative energy will ever fetch. You yourself and I feel like a growing demand from the forward my life. I can't have that hatred in May, because I'm, never going to move forward on that gonna. Do I'm not gonna chief, so, for instance, I'm I've got. Position in life now, where I am doing stuff with political pies right to implement change through the prison system.

So yeah. We don't have a change. So there's there's a lot of projects. The twinning campaign, so the Premier League Football membership. What we're going to twin up so at the moment for eight five premiership football clubs in league one and championship clubs? gonna turn out with their local prisons. They can deliver qualifications, they might in Prince Coaching and yet the coachman employed polity qualified- she's envy cannot really and hopefully open up sympathiser when young offenders in offenders go for these programmes. That then, which is the most important part when they get release from prison than is pathways into employment and stuff that their passion about and an end to trying to change the system. but first spoke on a massive massive massive advocate and am passionate believer narcos city. Before there was twenty eight men in this country that would deem to be such a high escaped wish. We had to be segregated.

Of the system, and even when I was in that unit, I remember someone from the home office once come in and I was trying to get off that unit too and and go to back onto the main prison, and I said to her. Why am I kept in here with people convicted of terrorism, away into gone lot for terrorist attacks? And she said to me John people, like you, don't change, and she said I know the first opportunity you get to run for that wall. You'll. Take it if I've managed to turn my life around through spoke and give me direction and am and positive male role models and his age changed the whole dynamic of my life. Every single one of those people imprisons that I can, as they are no different to me, and I can take that same

if they want it and turn their lives around as well, and that's why I'm so passionate Russell, because I really do understand what sport can do for people's lives. I really really understand it is not just so much the physical aspects of it. Based on what I stumbled across this, I didn't realize he wasn't intentional when I got released from prison or join a rowing club, and I went down to this rowing club and I remember I was deeply embarrassed and ashamed of my past because I saw it Now these guys went to the Olympics. Doctors, nurses, people are doing amazing. Things realize I ultra marathon runners, people that climbed Mount Everest, and I looked at myself for what I've already done. My lifelong. I was ambassador to anyone else at any of these records, because I thought I might gonna go gonna. Google me these are these headlines will pop up from my past, so I didn't tell no one. They just saw me as this God, The rank up every day is really hardworking. People reached out to me that helped me did they think it was good yeah they date like they. They just thought they took me on face value. They just is John. This God it was it the rank of every morning. First, there can be a really it's a good on paper over

I've got a member or can remember being in the change your rooms, one then an overseas quite diverse. She got you got you really athletes and then you add like some of the rectory aroused remembers since light since the covers created eighteen, eighty eight and they were old men, and they- and I remember they said there every day we talk about, stop prosecutions and stuff at Obaidullah. They were, they were judges and barristers, and they worked for they've accused Jason. I was developing these relationships with people and and whatnot they might bypass in that coming out and my I can laugh, it was the most humbling experience I've ever ever ever ever ever had in my life that the amount of people within the Rhine community that reached out to me and said Genoa, it broke our preconceptions of what we thought people would be like that was in prison, because I took me face value as a person I'd become, and not as my back story. What I done years ago- and I remember, is a most humbly experience and that again I stumbled across that going to a different world and I went into a spot in world, but those people,

they re help me. No, you they help nurture me and then, when they found out about my past- it wasn't that they would all get away, get away, get away. They actually embrace me even more and helped me even more, and that meant so much to me- and I know again, you can replicate that again and again and again we have a lot of these kids, where you can get them in and use the hook. The sport as the hook and Cara get them in cause a lot of them at a massively disenfranchised with society compared to where they've got no they've got Russell it. It even lie. Can't tell you my life. I go into prisons and I entitled to children by. I mean children and you're sitting there and may it kills me a It may it re, it kills me you'll, sit and advocate that fifteen years old and they're in there for life for murder- and you have how they've done it and then you shouldn't go little. Girls have been sexually abused and been there for so immense that a new test, they've they've they've, been so filed. So deeply

I about a system and they ve been die, acted out and then they've ended up doing terrible thing. He's been so normalized to them. So normal stamina and it kills me when I go into these places and you see these kids from their lives away from looking- so the wrong, my ones and, and and and the law of the time there being encouraged into doing these bad things. Do not. May not people actively encouraging them into doing it are recognised. I recognise that also there is a certain industrial. Let me chance if I can put this may of course, use him cases a complicated idea, he would achieved this life, something incredible path which cause you know you ve had any night, you build a long and arduous. Like someone who's Berlin footballers wherever they didn't give themselves that bill eight. I just add that below eight I discovered it. Possibly they worked harder air wherever I am, and now you've turned to the.

Around for a life of criminality and incarceration to one if so self Development spirituality Mentor ship offer. Now, in hand and illuminating pathways, for other people have it offences, but so much of what you experienced in your early life was about social conditions. You know lovely loss of your father before you were born proper I like your mom's minimum wage Floris these of like economic, they're not just happening on an individual level that happened on a mass Mass mass Moscow and, like you know, like you, said, ninety thousand prisoners in the UK at that time, and now, when you talk about anecdotally about me and people that are in these institutions, is our alma God issue, because I had the wrong conditions. The wrong role models- the more the older I get anyway and the more I learn the less. I believe in the idea that people are bad. I just think people circumstances take him in certain directions. People saw an opportunity, isn't the inner light. So the idea that in the

the jewels are responsible for their own destiny briefing. That is partly true that, like you know like that, we have something in us and maybe, if we're lucky through circumstance, we realise that thing and we'll get to live a great life. But we want to be careful of his old people, the on that don't have I believe that you ve had like five still at the Shit law gas directive. At that Sorry about that. Can that can only be changed on a like you've said, a systemic level private prisons or that attitude of rehabilitation, a willingness to help. You see an appetite for that kind of change. I think that you have to you have to you have to think that prevention is better than cure, for instance site. So I do these programs were the premier, rare Premier League football, the training component. We retain who's. The vice chairman of Arsenal Disease, a disease he was a good idea is amazing, is amazing and he's and he's using his platform to galvanize the football community to to to to use this program to change people's lives by preventing

Van secure at it. You need to stop. You need to give young people opportunities where they don't filled an aids to go. those bad decision large. You need to create opportunities for about an analog, I do in the community level of programmes and projects again and I even get amazed by the disparity in wealth and the how bad Somebody's young children have got it right. I got no opportunities whatsoever and no exposure to positive Ramos so not, for instance, we ought to commute that is really London being absolutely savagely cop and always do you. Ve set youth workers losing Oda jobs. What spin created as an environment where a virus has been allowed to as tat tat bases or attack London. All these major cities and the austerity is, it pays cuts and then there's no place to enter even please these areas, so the kids aren't doing anything they're hanging out in the streets. They got nowhere to go and there's this there's this big pro problem at the moment, even if innocent is a chicken show agreement where kids are.

Sitting outside the chicken shot hanging around on the Tuesday night know full well and after school. They got nothing. Today do not know where to go and some of the horrific stories about from pace offices about how these children then are basically someone else and older gang members buying him some food, some chicken and chips, chicken chips that goes on for a couple of weeks and eventually ended awake. It's like you or me for a powerful that food out boat. You can't afford to pay him the time the money says. Don't worry just take that package up the road they take. The package up the road their friend robs the stuff they come back, so that was a thousand pounds worth of crack. You know a mere thousand pounds kid Japan, so the kids now being effectively groomed into a gang setting up a paper not realise the stuff happens, these kids it and send out into the suburbs. And I sat down he safe houses, we phone lines, delivering drugs, Why were up and down on on train systems? in Lebanon by sea manipulate and groomed a day. Littler did she leave in scope and these people predatory grooming, these young children into committing criminal fences, but this all stems back Russell again: the lack of office.

junior lack of investment, it's a very elaborate elaborate system in like the first will you go through the chicken and chips? Video? do the fight robbery to crack packaged, and but by animals, are when you are thinking that this is just that my mind like this is always more perspective. Don't you know, even if you're not, upon by criminality. There are of a corporate economic systems that will prey upon you anyway and put you in debt, and even if you, in a savings, you ve got an extreme life. You know somebody without have extremely, they still live lives. The withering constructed realities where they have no chance of freedom where they don't. Interact with the essence of a girl, crazy role model for a number of reasons. Partly of the extremity, makes it really vivid and brilliant story The thing, though I am inclined to investigate, is the dozen

it used as a story as any individual can themselves pull themselves up by their bootstraps. If they've only got the gumption and we don't need to worry about the systems that create poverty and crime and how generations of people just sequestered off in our nor ever given opportunity and prisons. I let my and recovering drug addicts, so am how lens of looking at a moment of silence prisons, article eight or nine. He said between that drug addicts. They lighted most of the crime is committed at a lower level, not organized crime, a crime this related to so of ideology. Did it because to deal with a habit? You know the vast majority of people you know and then or bad people over the age of people that circumstances men life's too painful, I'm gonna have to take drugs. I wonder what What would have happened if, instead of the first mentor, you encountered being a person who says there is a cup of tea and then dropped to a score? If it had been someone that urged the inner been interested in sport or been interested in spirituality, I've got no doubt. I had a genetic cause,

I I will do that, my guys, always I wish I had. I had the attributes, but again it's the stylish walk and again it goes back to stuff like when we don't go out into the community, do stuff a community centers and you have young children in schools, the talent that is in these environments, is frightening, how it's not being given the opportunity to grow and develop our full, and it makes me so fucking angry when I see it and these catches have not got the option is tat to even to even pay when it when you savagery sends out people get right

infused, and I think it's money and it's not it's about having an awareness, light. I've done, stuffy kids were delightful in years old and I've never travelled from EAST London to Southwest London and one day we took this kid from a pupil referral unit. So as a kid that's been excluded from mainstream education. He come across on a minibus and they brought him across to Hammersmith, and my friends got a rubbing cup, their full and rich as a community rowing club says you're a database you get with local state schools, give them access to the waterways in the Thames, and this kids was asked. If he could go to Tesco's, I say one of the countries making Jackson is walked escaped to the test. Gouged Brenda back from the Rhine, club and events where this is like being on holiday and she took him to test cows and in many ways it is like it. It never seen self check out cause to eat where's granite, there's no self check out cause people vote. State is at an end and she started crying because she just couldn't comprehend,

how this young kids, the age, had never travelled Mass Denise London, nice not liking it ass. It does gazing on other consolatory than any frightening, and I could go on and on and on the stories and again it is a day so limited it and and again sometime. It's a generational thing now, as well as what the problem is, so I've gone to schools before and and some of the pupils are so academically, intelligent and and teaches his hands mom and dad Light Buller like a unit. I think universe is doubled up north, that I realized not universally London and any it's NE, and it makes me so sad that these children aren't getting that same of journey. So if I can use my platform, while I'm trying to do now to create those opportunities for for partners that I work with and open up pathways for these kids and I do like to I've gone in and done some corporate stuff before where the brands and am businesses of allowed kids tend to go up and and basically work experience dies side of a group of kids from a school in Essex, we're not to a tv production coming

music, and I couldn't believe like these- can remember walking around in trainers and t shirts and flip flop that I was like this. She saw people, ladies for people that are jobs. Lawsuits is he amazing. do you have what you've done as you're, dedicating your life now to to mental shape, form different partnerships and making giving young of our young people that might not have had opportunities the chart, the chances to build different lives, beautiful? What an incredible encourage, story. How long have you been out now? I have been out there at the end of two thousand and twelve, so five and a half years five mile. If you look at the life you live in May I what my everyone can live it that's. What makes me so guy. I sometimes Our daddy optimism, I I I I was on Amazon. so she made us on twitter and coincidences. Despite this new jocose flick top

And I was an I in prison with a guy and the story, I saw his face on his on his tweet and have clicked on it from a newspaper and and he was killed and, and he just had a baby, and it made me feel so sad for him that he he come out of prison of seven rat time. A I got killed and I'm just had a baby as well, and I it made me realize I followed moved on in my life by just felt so sad inside because, while I'm living again, I was out I'm no difference. Anyone else is decision, a choice. I made it like you just you just have to believe in some how can it cannot get about? Does a morality that always you can get out of it if you generally want to change your life, you can do it and it is hard Come out. I had no, I didn't. We have any friends evident that, while my old social, what I left them behind I joined a running club. I was fortunate that easily done and it was hard I'll, be honest with you. It's very hard because I develop you developed close relationships should be shared amazing experiences with certain people from years ago.

But I knew for me to move on with my life. I couldn't have one step in one footstep a month which I had to make a clean break and completely attach some people might sound selfish. But I needed to do that for me to go forward. Even Russell was when I first go out. I remember like I, wouldn't even watch any films that had any a crime element to it. I didn't I want it- is completely shut that side of my life away. I didn't want to think about it anymore. It's only you in a way you do sit down. You do. Watch films are about the beginning. I just went into detach from that well button, but I again I am no different to anyone else.

And if you generally want to change your life and you want to move forward and achieve something. Sometimes you have to it has to be hard and sp difficult. I said when I come out of prison. I had no money, but I believed in myself. I knew it'd pay off eventually, and I knew I just had to keep doing what we're doing and a mile of my life shaped and evolved. Since that point, and I started going into Scholes and they were profound moments, my life about giving back is that that's what life is about? The essence of life isn't about you, like everything: I've done in my life up to the age of life twenty six twenty you were from twenty six. When I, when I realized what sport is all about me, it was about me as a kid making being a millionaire than him and being an athlete is inherently a very selfish figure. It's about you, you winning, it cost me me me me me and, and I come out of prison and it was about me being just as roughly and you get put on a pedestal and then suddenly you can have these massive character flaws, but because you're very good at chucking a ball kicking a ball. People just thought we were. We won't focus on that. Then

it's been a bit of it, but but that is the truth, and it was only when I started going into schools and seeing the reaction. Kids reverend on me, because kids kids can connect to me because kids can safer bullshit. So when you stand and you can talk to young people and you shot trying to talk about them and your shot, then you're from the same areas them that they seyfried bullshit. I've survived on assent, after assembly gone into prisons, spouts, kids, automaton against. to me- this is a norm Ogilvy and I talk and you've got like two fringe kids, just looking at you for an hour and and it's when I leave that had teachers and the teachers go like, I have never seen them that quiet and and off to the resp, the emails and the responses you get from them. Like I realized at that moment. That is what my purposes in life it wasn't. That is what I put here to do good. as a good purpose, do you meditate or do I really have the best crack on with Atma or farm or meditation for exercise or for

I find that that's where additional message saying silently quietly, who knows what will come from? Who knows what will come for come back in five years' time? We could be that another powerful yeah yeah hey if we wrote that swamp made I'll, be just a beard. Then a little ball of lie on nice when you're lovely tangier. Thank you wrap Apple that Turkey will die of antiquity. Sometimes I venture my swan. Thank you for listening to that. You glorious, swine? I hope you enjoyed the John Mcelroy upside down. I learned a lot and extreme life, some extreme. parents Jones on a mission there and they in man he's doing some wonderful stuff. Member, let me know I, for the Uninstall Graham tag mutually Russell brand or tweet me at rusty Rockets with hashtag under the skin next week, fern cotton, whose fantastic podcast happy places

say inspired hours in some ways I mean with Nicht bits of it, but phone is our friend and I think, a important voice in the world of personal development and in helping us to understand more. What do I say: colloquial and accessible ways of thinking about spirituality and mental health. Sir Grey episode already made it, and so on as good as you're going to love it. Thanks for listening can get mentors They say you can get it off of Amazon and we can get it off my website and also wasn't having to rebuff that. You know if you're going to dedicate your life to me, as I hoped you might then try to consume all of these various products and are subscribed to the podcast review the book

just really get involved in this community on the off chance that one day we start forming physical communities, the former confederacy and then challenge to the status quo, and those of you that damn good reviews will be looked upon very favorably in this new peculiar utopia thanks very much bye bye