Welcome, welcome to under the skin with me Russell brand. They show responsible my new book recovery, which is available now on Amazon or by going through us. A brand dot com also come see. My rebirth to London, on the thirty first vote, sober and the first of November, remember, of course, on the first of November, if you come to the Hammersmith APOLLO I'll be reading the book recovery then answering questions as six, then often come back. I p m and do stand up showed us a few tickets left is massive venue love, it's come not an m. Second. In November I love you come that commentary on four November last, a faint for November, one be written a book say straightaway. If you like the show subscribe to it place and review it on Itunes. Remember we do the show out of sheer love and actually get some money for these adverts know that much though, and There are two free education, and this episode we ve Kai Hindi Andrews is absolutely brilliant. You,

His mind, bending mine, blowing stuff and walk away from it very, very well educated and probably very sexy. Only five star reviews play some very fragile now it's time. Under the skin, you listen, unwanted, skimmed Russell brand by yesterday's guy the Andrews and offer an associate professor in sociology and is also doing Black studies, degree anywhere in Europe, at Birmingham them see university he's research, specialists is rice and racism. He's director of the centre for critical, so

research, founder of the Organization of Black unity and co, chair of the Black studies, association he's contribute feature the guardian and his new book. Black radicalism is out next year. Welcome cry aloud. Thanks for having me on through really great, you count, as you know, like my motivation, for doing his pockets of some at so as universal? Even doing it degree religion in global politics and what I felt like? We saw a dealer taunts glee at new information and then like one also getting given s eyes and start fussing cannot America meet. These people have been on the Tele five. This is part of that. It is in the vice like make a wish found, diverted just for one met. Making one person's wishes come true, so one that we want to start around the area of empire because of national identity.

ethnocentric national identity, a particular, become very prevalent both in our country and America, wanted to talk about Cologne new nostalgia, and would you explain what that term means? What this particular moment around breaks and Trump if you got any analysis on them nicer to kick off with you so, the term costs colonial nostalgia. It gonna refers to look at the public discourse, particularly ram Briggs and v. leave campaign in the idea that Britain is grey and bring can go back to the time. It was great well, the time that Britain was great was when it was an empire when it rude over.

Ninety five percent of the world, when the colonies stretched out to the empire where the sun never sets, and that is the basis of of Britain's wealth today and that is kind of what people are looking back at. How do we go back to that colonial prestige of Britain developed so when we say greatness, remain tyranny and oppression effectively yeah well. This is this is what we're celebrating and because we teach empire so badly. We don't really understand the horror I mean the british Empire were killed more people than the Nazis. I was literally a form of fascism that laid waste to call at home. these of the world and hope he pulls up, would cry if, like an institution or nation killed, more pay, for them the Nazis and the main reason we think the Nazis are bad is because they killed. So many people does maybe the british Empire was worse than the Nazis.

Yeah I mean in some ways actually, the british Empire and the Nazis aunt supper in any way shape rule there's a book. The Bowman sociologists called Bowman wrote where he's called holocaust and modernity and actually argues that. How we think about the Holocaust is, though, somehow alien, it's so outside it was so horrible. It could never possibly fit within a wonderful enlightened society, but, as in the book, he makes the argument that the West's Modernity- capitalism is the only society that could have produced the articles and the reason for that is racial science. We think about the idea that Jews aren't really people and we can prove they're, not people from measuring and through science would at that race. That's the same racism which produced slavery. That says that I'm not fully a person, and you can treat me like cattle, that's the same same racism, the same science that prove the Jews were inhuman and also, if you think about the

the amount of death that scientific process of death there's nothing new about that, for the articles Mean Belgium, the killed about ten million people in the Congo, slavery wasted was millions and millions of people. So, in a sense the Holocaust is light there. The logic of capitalism just onto people, we consider it a white and saw it becomes. Is our right aspires to things? Yes, of course, it was that people that were why and also, I suppose, in terms of their trajectory, It was an inverted commas. Civilised country with people live in civilised lives and their victims were civilized, so I suppose it reveals a law by our presumptions around race of light. You wouldn't even in a modern contacts in contemporary context, conceited

that was the same year about one minute. I was all living in Africa and that is not as bad because I didn't ethnic currency though, and that's the problem right, so you see the logic of of the western imperialism in Europe for white people, and then you see eighty. This is terrible, but actively look the holocaust Is it you think of articles as being one of many imperial terrible things happened is really not even the top ten right, because that is the way that we categorize this information of Loke like like, as if there's a like a handicap system applied for these white people. So that's the worst then down it like this out. So you're. Obviously, right thanks for illuminating me on that now. What am I, how is that idea, progressing and and how that is, that perpetuate in the idea of Raichu Science and that term? I know from school. Niekro politics

there's that how is that continuing now? Where is the was the front line of these arguments that are most evident in the most evident from slavery and holocaust? How what's the version of that we live in with now here so after the other was an and people see light Rachel science is is there, actually, maybe we should move away from racial science and before the Holocaust, it was just science was ratio signs that it wasn't controversial, that we just what we all, if agreed, but when you see that happen to the Jews to see that the terror of in Europe we kind of abandoned race, so you hear people would say: race doesn't exist, races, problematic. We should move away from the idea of race moved with missing. The problem is the way that we think about Miss. He is basically exactly the same way. We thought about rights so that different ethnic groups, but there I shall list so I'm caribbean. But then you lumping Caribbean with African on the black. Then you have a gene which is indian pakistani censure than you have mixed, and even if you look at the senses, the hierarchy white

The black is actually visually represented. Right is white, Irish and his agent. Then it mixed in is black and you see the actually the way we talk about ethnicity. He still says that black people may not be inferior because of biology. Any more were inferior because of our culture because of our language. Because of our traditions cause, we haven't gotten a history, so it's just a it's just a different version of the same thing: less interesting so power, you say Mew, Tights and ba doesn't often accede in there like it's like. Oh, we can't do it in that way anymore, but is a new way yeah, exactly and think about. If you think about was what What's racism really fundamentally about s about, creating a system is, as you have Europe, why are the top? You have Africa black to the bottom and his various gradations in between, and that is actually what global politics looks like. Today is not a coincidence that the poorest countries in the world are in Africa and the richest countries in the world

the European West White countries. That's like! That's how it was designed five hundred years ago and he's exactly who he is today. What possible argument? Could there be other than the previous colonial exploitation? Some actual meritocracy is that the actual argument flattening a white european small advance is different and Africa is primitive. Well, that's how is maintained if you think about, are you doing a degree so as of yet international relations and international development have been going rent a lot of places recently, as saying I see what what are they teaching you in international development, they're teaching you how to under to develop parts of the world I mean there's a whole. A whole colonial education system isn't just about Britain is about the elite from Africa, Caribbean, Asia, coming into Europe and learning about economic policies, political idea,

is which are actually there in place to continue the oppression of the of their countries. So you have this idea that you can develop the the Global South through an aid and through technology and through, etc, etc, etc. We've missed the point that I see these places of the world: a poor because the waste is reach. There was the same vein as it is today. Hasn't changed in any way shape or form its integrity. I suppose isn't that that story is concealed, because it is at odds with the assumption of justice and marry that is required to maintain it. balance you exactly. I talk about whiteness as being more like a psychosis then, like anything rather here of whiteness and progress in civilization, eccentricities, the There is in the enlightenment that Europe is kind of these civilising mission that spreads the truth to the world. That's that's nice Russian, whom he has no rational basis to the right.

because a lot of current of your in Nicaragua, whiteness studies and people like David Roger and knowing that, if we talk about the idea that you can kind of teach at whiteness, it The white people would understand the problem. Historically, then they change and become ally. is and will be happy families. Actually, I argue, is much more much more serious. that the reason you have this myth of progress etc? Is because that, within the political economy the West needs to exploit the rest I so what we do is we have the psychosis who says acting on ice, all right, he's fine, we're doing a good job, etc, etc, and asked to hide the fact that either we re living on the back of children dying mean that's what we're doing right. Children die because of the system which gives us money as always we can do with it mentally emotionally. We greatly myths about how wonderful toward rights areas like aside psychosis,

Ass, their conceal its essence in order to perpetuate and even us over a little while ago and tv Online news block, I do with it at sight on but little kids mining for resource for your mobile phone, so it made a very clear connection between hey, we are in the west, ordinary people that don't forget, we got blot on IRAN's, but in our handheld device is like is he seven years old he's got all know, it's like an abortion and doesn't make you feel like it doesn't belong in your understanding of the contemporary world. Now one of these things about whiteness is power. Obviously I, as a white person that feel like I have certain attitudes towards the state and my sense of alliance and allegiance, would be counter cultural. How am I categorized by like, in the terms of this new emergent narrative, around power and oppression? It's interesting because this whole discussion about LO white allies and

I decide to Sosa Oxford yesterday talking about listen. Sometimes I feel a bit like a stand up comedian where you kind of go and you play the little you play the audiences and you get different reactions and you test it. Your material is good because I feel like an academic cause when you set out on this activity. Ultimate good movie, the same level as Oxford University with my questions, but it was grew because there is a question of whiteness came up the walk away. They will do it away, but what what can we do to solve the problem? The sector and its is a trick. The question, because we take my idea. If you take what I'm arguing here, that whiteness is a psychosis that is an a and psychoses are irrational, so and actually in the left. You can see this as much as you can see on the right, so you have left wing people as WP

marxist. You will make these global arguments about x, wizard, who will say they are on the side of the oppressed, but actually, when you look at what they're saying they, they they're just as deluded as the the right wing crashes, because whiteness as a concept is so important. I give you example and at so anybody anybody's black nose goes to a black evince, an african caribbean community. The ST Will you be a social workers by their more prevalent than the police? I mean they come every they're. Always there then they're, always there peddling Marxism, Marxism, Marxism and I quite like Marxism by the way, but one of these events they were is a few years ago there was a strike of set african farm workers and teaches teachers having a strike here, any kind of marks,

world working class, rural workers, ruining the same struggle, etc, etc. They were saying that we had to support. We couldn't do support the workers in South Africa. We anticipate teaches right, but they think about is visiting work is instead Africa Farm workers are poor there, so poor because of trade policies, the benefit ratio. as in european farmers, are farmers effectively and that impoverishes omit more immersion. Let them in their conditions, conditions are. We could never even contemplate right now teaches a pay to have tax asian from the very system which are splits in african farmers, so women, when teachers are asking for their pensions and better pay when it asking for, is a bear more fruits from this publication of places like that Africa. So he no way to shape or form of these two people together actually did opposed completely about because teaches. anybody I myself, as will we make our money off their exploitation and ass, the psychosis awaited. Could you can't understand? Actually Europe, but we are all of us here- are part of the problem.

not necessarily the solution, but when you have a systemic contradiction such as that one within which your participation is, The involuntary other then like I've little I'm out of the system now like. How do you avoid that and how Con alliance he's be formed on that basis? I think it may, if you'd, think of power or like a lot of love, was Berlin that that out in the documentary way to use it like the ai for that they use that O J Simpson documents to tell a story about race in the United States. America stories about crime stories about commerce, capitalism, racial tension, but I mean really in a way that I could Stan told me a lot of important stories and a lot of it was about Oj Simpson's racial identity. At a time when the civil rights movement

we'll make a few sacrifices Mohammed Ali life. You know that I use and ends and gave up his bell and all of that stuff, but light. There was interesting moment. Where said well, what why does our joy Simpson, because he is an african american men? Have the obligation to free? Like that, you will you ve got a white light. You would know why athlete or White STAR would have that obligation would be expected to carry that man was. It might begin to challenge wore white nurse and blackness me. as of categorization system so like. If like what this distinction, I see there is a historic colonial and indeed contemporary continuation of these themes and categories, but but the there source of crossover, isn't it because, let's say Barack Obama as the when he was the president of the United States he's an African. Can man, but he is in the site if you use the argument about the south african farmers and the teachers?

is the puppet know, he's the president of affectionate, but how does that work? Yeah? I mean that, and this is part of the thing we, the psychosis is, I don't say that's what psychos isn't just for white people in any way shape or form black people. La many many many black goo would also embrace is kind of psychosis. I was one of the most critical people. Still I'm one of the most critical people of Barack Obama's presidency. You have a black president after eight years literally every single indicator, apart from employment, black affably went down, and even if you look at employment, black wages went down so much. The active employment was basically irrelevant, and so you think then will end what what what we achieved. What was achieved by this initially, the celebration of a bomb of particularly by African Americans and black people here and my mom cried when a Burma was elated. That's part of that psychosis. Rather, we think things are changing when actually, if you look at the evidence, suggests that none of these things are actually changing and in many ways to get him to get worse, since it was the value of that category, if it is our might lose you, sadly

actually meaningless? In what sense is he an african american president other than like he's, I will say the row he fell in shops and that kind of stuff, and that you know that things we don't really sort of amazing and a fist bump evidence of literally superficial, which I suppose is sometimes why I think race ought be in a utopia like and unlike a superficial monikers, what was value and meaning of it? Would you say that there really wasn't any or no? There was so there you'll find some academics, who will be very critical of Obama, but say well, look it's limits of what you could do. That's the problem. We must move on. I beg you to write to the hut. Meditating opposite approach to say too, that the symbolism of Obama, the point of a bomb, is blackness. One of the reasons why you got elected was become part of two eight. This idea of psychosis was to a decided, the american dream for me by ECHO, Burma's blackness ease violent in

itself go on, because what did they do? What is so? What is that my mom's crying to a moment, a radical in it in the sixties and had all these politics about revolution, etc, etc, and They agreed on em on on the day. This very nearly brew politician you never offered. One the single thing to Blair never said he was gonna, do anything for black people, but we just kind of assumed because he's black there's going to have something right and then you see afterwards everybody's kind of praising the symbol. You've got a black family in the White House and a bomb with young black men and but actually get bitten? Leave that seem was that trying to do that, trying to tell you two things have progressed the ears of change that there's this progress is being made, but again look at every single indyk a hit owes you from black people to particular in America. Things are getting worse, probably not better. I saw the symbol, Obama and wise black Wow we use is blankets and why you got. One of the reasons I got elected is because he keeps us more deluded and tied

to a system which can never providers, freedom, justice or equality. People hate being told that story. I fancy I haven't. They probably has not impose popular way to put things, but is also the truth. Re that's right so that at that that type of critique ways I know, let's not get distracted by war, appears attractive and more appears, beautiful and promising. Look how power is actually behaving sovereign right to return to button bright point about like how do I, as a white person from or working cost background, whose dude, has always been anti. Like look at me reaching for my little slice of the pie that I like and like a lot, how do I participate? What like? Well? How do I like a lot when I, when you say that about the british empire, I still think like God? Yes will bill? what biscuit, teams are union Jack on it and land and open glory. Unlike ever over a butcher,

in India, in Africa and to improve ever was required and now It was always a front for corporations anyway, and the whole thing's been a black I'm on board so like how do we have alliances that aren't caught up in sort of bureau? Bureaucracies such as that tape, south african farmer lions. How do we go? Let's? Let the radical white folk in there there'll be of some use or is it like? Can it not work? This is the part of the material we have tested, narratives and maybe the best, because I am a big Malcolm X fan. I love Megamix. May I know it s all right. You don't move more. The merry dab, Malcolm historian what about receive amalgam white lady comes ass, Malcolm similar question woken wifey booty and he basically tat renders is nothing and it works of any feel bad about. Is a man of Malcolm X, ending up in a bit nervous attend this guy and she he was crying, as he have said, he felt by the his location as it is. Actually

Why do we have responsibility to go into white communities and make these these arguments I've already events much more than then the what one of them Malcolm used to do was just to go around and tell white people literally, they were devil. I mean he'd, say look evil like what look. What you've done look at his critique am- and I guess, as as a black scholar and activist that's the most, I can do I dunno. If I can have the answer to what what you can do other than to prove the critique wrong. I would love to be wrong, but actually, if I'm looking historically presently currently at the left as well as the right, I don't see how you break out of that psychosis That's why coolly psychosis, because he's completely irrational? There is nothing you can do to can and actually penetrate it. My ass, he has my my work is more more. What we do is black people and had we will, of course, that must be. Isn't it like how I would have a personal allegiance around like a date, in a wherever, because that's where that's just what I've been drawn to for my particular wound, like an that's where, for all I know score on that is all can be read.

and I can be useful in the area. I can't go around camp campaigning on behalf of a group that don't share the experience of, but what I feel like a pure conjecture, of course, given the nature of what I've just said, it might be the solution over. My question is: is it not that we they, whether these conqueror these characterizations or that the way where we find us have within solve about that Peculiar College Shaw lately light or we be the nine the category. Sue transcending the cap is not the nine. What the narrow, evasive like I'm going and was a nice has happened, and I am aware of it now in the industries are working. I, what went on that means run television, nothing while we're white. Still fifty workers of aware of that and enlightened by like was a mass of super relevant, but what I'm interested in is that as long as our identity continues to re write those costs

even if its through over fro in them, we continuing somehow to augment them by light. You know like that, but I will This is our story, and this is what it is completely accepted, import of it, but how We have a guy brought within one anymore. We don't want power to work in that way. How do we challenge and dismantle it if we are a wedded to weld it somehow to our categories? Yeah, and I think this is wizard. I think he really does is really about taking on board his critique in a very serious way, and I don't think the lift the lift as a general thing below people on the left, marked, as other academics have done this in the sense. So, for example, if you look at mobilizations like an occupy Occupy Wall Street

in ninety nine percent. I'm sorry, that's an that's an offensive way to look at global, a global inequality if you're, if you're in, if you're, if you earn the average wage in Britain during some of the top four percent of earners in the entire world, just recognizing that the conditions that we and not just white people, black people, all of us have here. I pause in a completely different situation to the conditions of people. In the third world. So, for example, there was recently a child bereavement enough in our family. Circle of friends gives a car accident and Lee two years: lay everybody still shut by industry should buy it because it is so far. But actually many parts of the world. Children does die all the time when a child dies every ten seconds because they haven't got access to food. So what that means we're protected from that the the horrors of the system. So for us to pretend that ruling is one big happy,

workers that that needs to go from one thing: let it take that after quick, the the equation completely and understand that all of us here me included, are complicit in the system and benefit from the system. Yes, I don't think you see that in much of the of the lift, unfortunately, there'll be a starting point, and maybe you can build a proper politics after that, a sort of awakening yeah. I like what you said there like that. There's that famous Orwell quote. You know the british Working Class in India when I was on Bill Maher the other day and like his of are they very much romanticize Obama and like they're, very much like no luck at the opening a light bill. Mine are, but the opening jokes were very much about, and no so valuable? You know you're, not president, like about is a very big, remain Africans nostalgic and all of that and then the subsequent conversation.

Was against of about intricacies of. Do you know the Democratic Party in the way they elect Canada is not for this. Is that why you have trouble is because this is this: doesn't appeal to people on a visible level, even you're, not addressing the inability of conventional politics, to tell it true for open, clear story. So what were? How does politics up half the altar ciphers I'd like to hear how do end up in it? Like you, love progressing, both bricks interim, I see the moors failures of the left or failures of progressive, truly progressive fingers as opposed to a triumph for the right. So what what is it

the obligation of progressive. If even if you don't use the terms like lifting rocks, I can see how they are becoming problematic and somewhat redundant and they all paw. For my record, but like words in many ways, the Trump em Briggs a response to the logic of the lifters will in some ways, if you have this national politics says how do we get the most we can for the working class in the UK, where the working Class in America, which, unfortunately love the lift, has done then being anti immigrant and being a bit racist? Make sense is a logical thing, that's illogical, and that is that's. The history If the left, particularly Britain as well, so that every I mean really think about the duty and think about like people always say, let's go back to social democracy. My family came to this country under social democracy they were calabaza couldn't get to in school. Don't come about closer. You were allowed to join the trade union. Well, I'd go into this. Aviation couldn't live in this area, etc. Citric acid under social democracy, the racism that were

piercing now insane all these terrible. It was like five times worse rang. Leftwing social democracy works Less and racism was far more severe on open level. It is, and is today so in some ways these aren't trump and breaks on on on alien to the left. The to was even curbing got criticized because in every case, Briggs in because there is a strong lifting argument that mankind. You know you want to protect wages, etc, etc. Because a lot left is framed around the nation state right. How do protect british workers had you protect american workers, etc? and so what we need to do for the left is to have a much more radical approach to politics, and it's like this never happened so if you look at people like Aragon, him right and NEO Marxist RO, Ro Luck, work, the black Panthers american and near Marxist in this seventies, Emmanuel Wallerstein talks about world systems. Theory

who is dear? It says that we need to data, be divest of our privileges in the West and really understand up our place in the global system that works there unfortunately hasn't he hasn't. It is early work to influence how politics, what what do you mean divest of privilege? I didn't like the sound of that at all. He is about is about acknowledges up, as a blemish resemble I have to understand, I don't suffer most of the symptoms of racism or I'm not unemployed. I don't get stopped by the police, every education- I I I am more than most people in the country alright, so I have to understand that I am in a privileged position and I have to understand also that, because I'm in the way that privilege come from it comes from the exploitation of people that look like me, which means I then have to build a completely different politics. That says how to how to

How do we relate to the least of US innocents? How do we draw these global idea about, and child deaths and politics around the world, etc, etc, and understanding the to do this? I'm going to have to give up my privilege- and this is what people don't want to do right. This is why the probably the limit, this probably won't ever work, because for us in the West, to really have a radical politics will mean we have to give up our privileges and, to what extent are people willing to do that? I suppose the power structures that perpetuate ah dependent on our unwillingness to give up comfort if we ever people have a sort of I'm more spiritual proof Oh, don't say at you told asceticism if people were kind of hard into the audio? No, I know what's right,

I'm not going to beguile me with your iphones, or I feel, like it's very, very hard to get there couple of times a week. I think, would I be more happy if I was to fill my house with people who are refugees, side of the art didn't and what would my sum total of happiness go up? I just tend to be spending less time, reflecting on why shouldn't really be having this but it should not about much more time going elder brother toilet o every. It would be that day in our light so like, but the Iroquois requires about the candy. Did this wiki speech about where he said? Let you know, there's no when in us over from the british them replacing them with a comparable system. We have heard this given that you ve, through its degree courses, admiration politics, like so by their debate. We goes like the fact is: it comes down to the idea of our attitude towards comfort. As long as we are addicted to comfort, then, is really odd. On some level on a personal level, you have to go like this is where this isn't.

Erie. This is where the seasons I'm worried about Busquets. Am I prepared to give up my iphone. Would I be happier if I had less stuff on on some level? I saw a few. I would be what pervade there's a kind of fear, though Grande that prevents me from going right, I'm just going to walk out into because well, I suppose my personal privilege and wealth is what I feel protects me from his system, him from his world yeah, and I I can see why people are aren't quite the people know who wants to give up stuff right and particularly the working class, to give you a black. I use this discrimination right, so we're we're seeing that is clearly unequal. Is it's clearly not fair and we feel badly treated as well? That's also part of the problem is says: Leslie was why am I going to give up? These have worked quite hard to get he as well, but unfortunately that's the It's the reality he renewed in the black panthers. I wrote a book and revolutionary suicide. They said this is what revolution is about, understanding that you have to be able to give up for those people who are who are

This then misses why I have very little faith in this happening in Europe and, in effect, the the concert we always talk about as radical concept is blackness, because it's my blackness is the way that I Lucas is the is the hair is that there is a connection to people who are at the literal bottom. So when we talk about the child dies every ten seconds, that's those are in Africa. So that gives me a connection that you don't that you don't necessarily have right now and that should give me a connection I should have, and that should tie me into politics and remind me, is a global struggle, not a national struggle, which is why I have a bit more faith in as kind of black movement than I would have in an interview western european movements. I guess if, however, the only people that care about the exploitation and we know even in the most severe forms, such as child. There are people who have a visible and cultural identification with it, even then it remains theoretical and I dont know what to what degree without anachronism by the light you

the owls anything to change. In fact, it seems to me that until you get to that point, Huey New in point about like self sacrifice, which is really madam, is an idea that again is resourced from theology arena. How how without a spiritual component is radically radical change going to occur, how to human beings access ideas such as one less true from fraternity, transcendence relinquishing into it, light entity, fruit, social and cultural life, or material forms how'd you go here because he doesn't have this em unnecessary potency is not a motive enough. It doesn't seem yeah I mean. Is this two posts in one? I think in terms of you, look at the black struggle and that kind of global politics there are people at friends. Fanon will talk about the idea he was. He was a Martinique and

and postcolonial theorist, and he will talk about that that you need to sleeping beauty of the European Working Class to wake up basically- and you need those allies to have this this this revolution- even the Panthers would say this because they were Marxists, am because of law. You said that you need to have this almost spiritual oasis, something beyond just right. Reality is something more than yes, this wise, but we never gonna happen right. One. We have a system which is always protected. The western working class always from the worst exploitation provided comfort and wealth and provided at at at at at least so look at the left now to say look. Can we just get a bit a bigger share of the pipe? Nor can we take nobody come, can a gaping share of the boy, and so I be unlikely to see that happen. But can you see that kind of money, emotional, if you life, theological spiritual in this concept, a blank why are you here? Doesn't it s death a potential possibility? rather than wait and try and get the ally. Sheep of people who are doping. River can assent. We have massive allergy, let's just go with what we have and organise what we have and putting some movement they can.

Surely this that by self would be enough to destabilizing anything and kick the bucket little, but I say, as asked buys for me: I see some more entrenchment precisely because of it's inability to transcend systems of categorisation thereof have been previously established by the power dynamic that you seek to overflow. Well, no, because that's the thing about about blackness, I mean in some ways that you can say- and this is the critique We get a lot a this. Is racial categories are from Europe, etc? Set such banality blackness is this concert I'm talking about is really the opposite to race. A race is about biology, is about hierarchy, is about Europeans. Looking at us and saying you're, not really. Human blackness is us looking at each over and going okay with we've gotten the same african background. We got that descent. I was seeing these Europeans are doing these terrible things they're trying to categorize in this way and we're going to reject that so blackness isn't about hierarchies and abet biology, isn't about genetics, it's about saying, there's a shared shared, meaning of of color

she had meaning a politics and we come to give an organised in order to benefit the commute. but he doesn't have those elements of race. So it's a different concept for me and that I now want to shift them to the idea of reparations, because it's sort of, I suppose it's a practical idea. Can you talk about that? The fo, western wealth is founded on colonialism, that there could be redemptive measures, or is that idea? I'm just so? If, basically, if you look through historically, it's very clear and very obvious that the wealth in the west is built on slavery, colonialism and genocide, like very clear if you just take slavery, for example, when slavery is about three hundred year system places, like Britain Africa Eurasia, literally built off the back of a part of London. Liverpool really exist as go up in Scotland, Scotland, let's get the slavery, but my surnames Andrews.

Let me tell you: I've met you need to know about slavery and Scotland, and if Birmingham even confirming was not a poor, we get. We tend to give away as well from some of its slavery. Stink of you, but the industry evolution James. What Matthew Bowen they were heavily involved is labour when I took lots and lots of money from none of this really so everything about the industrial revolution, which is typically seen to be the the marker of the West Ryan, how progressive is in science, Cetera, Et Cetera, or the first real commodity that was made in just revolution, was cotton and cotton grown in Britain right I mean they don't grow gone, they got. Cotton was in America, it was in the Caribbean, and so is that that commodity and that wealth from from the cotton industry, which was from the slave trade, which really gets reinvested back into the industry revolution and therefore you're able,

and the rest of the progress, cetera et Cetera. So the money that you needed to have something like the industry revolution is. This is one hundred per cent tied up into into slavery. So that's where we come in Birmingham, for example, made I think some some large proportion of all the guns and all the shackles that were used in the anti slavery we only made the guns and shackles were barely involved exactly and british ships are british. Even like em finance capitalism. Insurance starts with slavery, Lloyds of London. He celebrating used for wanted it anniversary, levity there I see your comes on tv and says we're happy too, of our roots in them. Ensuring the merchant trade What she meant was literally the slave trade. That's how you talk about slave trade in in in in in the Lloyd's of London, the merchant rate is growing psychosis. There are a variety of statically yeah when the lights began. It was just a fusion try to smoking. We call them goods maximize made it so you just.

The roots of our financial institutions are cities Erin every book probably couldn't have most of the wealth that we have today with it with s Labour captain Jim aspires in I'd, let what one component in it like initial, create in excess value at access worth, so anything you can do to reduce overrides like here that we found ways of reducing it to make stuff from other countries. get other people to work for no money? Oh and that's really, that's the the or the lion and the unicorn and the land and the hope of glory. It's that's what it conceals many as one hundred percent, what it really does can consume, and so, about reparations in a mirror. Mostly work has been done in America and they tried to calculate on pre, strong legal precedent, so free entity is won't play on pay, labour you does work, I what the labour would have been, what the cost would have been, what people should have up aid for the work they did.

And then there's also the President's IRAN trauma and abuse of, for example, for the holocaust. He talked about earlier Germany's paid out bad at ninety million to somebody who makes an organism may be more moon as a german GST paid out reparations for the harm that was caused. So we say these two categories and say that you've got to pay unpaid, labor you've got to pay for trauma in the states. I reckon it's anywhere between four point: nine and fifteen point: six billion trillion. So a trillion dollars this ode to African Americans. It would essentially unravel that nation that system, as we know it, that's why he can't be countenanced or disgust, because you can't have the United States of America now that we again we're framing it economically, and I read this wicked thing off of this native American. He could himself, or maybe even groups of Indians. Cant. Remember like activists, and he said all these so systems you to come up with Marxism Capitalism. The robes of your eye

is waning and none of them. By with us, we have a completely different framework for understanding reality. Politely I can see that with something like reparation, that what it begins to do is unravel an national identity. It was curious. I fall in that James Baldwin Documentary, where he goes, that the whole category of Negro is required in order for the dominant power of the dominant power and use of force to have another identity. To cast a shadow onto that. That category is created in order for whiteness to prevail not only economically but also kind of psychologically, because in a way, economics thesis of an exterior external system that comes from somewhere and and as for our own.

Terms of categorization master that they. These last was one of the things that we are arguing is that there is no essence to categorisation. These external forms that retrospectively applied, except for that moment where you talked about blackness as having some of the in terms of visual identification, but our our saying then the the how like with that reparation argument, you can't let you so in a sense I wore the import by would happen it Larry if I'd work, if you pursue that, where does that go in your work is this is this? Is the.

the coup de sac of reparations of AI isn't the way to put it. So logically, there's no real argument against reparations. Look at also you look at so people would talk about all it was a long time ago. Things have passed, etc, etc, but actually the effects are still very, very, very, very clear, not just what the descendants of the enslaved, but also in Africa mean just depopulate Africa. Next, in alone, has had a huge negative impact on the economy, so you can see the effects of slavery still there and reparations were paid. To the slave owners. Imagine an anti gay reparations to this label, because there was that there was that much money involved. They were able to give me some money. Alright, so sorry, losing your slaves must be a terrible hardship

there was a. U do you see our university College, London, dusty, the legacy of british slavery budget and, if traced, whether its equivalent of two billion pounds that went to the british owners of slaves at that emancipation went and you can see in the charities in the middle classes. In David Cameron, family is literally threat for an economy. So it is very clear. It is a problem and it needs to be restitution paid for that problem, but you're right, though, when he saw two out of these numbers, so many of his fifteen trillion in it in the states. What would that be? For the UK you talking about you can't is impossible, literally impossible for the west to pay these kind of sum of money with Troy that he would destroy what it would mean that it is no west. In order to do it, it means that the West has to dismantle itself the power, in fact down all arguments about power reach this nexus that were in order for the power to respond correctly. It would have to dismantle itself whether your sales

Agora, transnational cooperation if to Rat Lloyd's Lloyd's in order to behave rationally and acknowledges origins, we'd have to not big Lloyd's anymore, GMO. As for that time they were put out cause. They knew we're gonna catch fire by work, tat shape to let it happen, you're the only of possible responses for there not to be so the systemic Injuries required are so absolute that I, in a sense, defy the dynamic cause is like the Aig if you say where America, Britain, colonial former colonial war, Calonna Nations, have to repay too out, but the and what, if you like, is that transfers of wealth

Africa is iffy unless there is systemic change or you have now is will now with some dominant forces within Africa. Behave in that way and anyways they ever read. Erin in the east of I thought, let's think is it still just happened in, let us over very simplistic and without giving bloodier. What did you expect when you came on a lot? Lax of my argument is a bit like that people get so it goes a bit like this right. You can't have slavery. No more people of keeps bothering to many people like going that's! Ok, but what we can have is we'll pay people the absolute minimum they'll be subjugated on the clout Emmy, so things just move on thy power finds a way of re manifesting itself continually. I can their men and then ass compromises, which is why I think this is worth indeed the powers reparations argument you follow it. Fruit was loaded with gluten, tells you that the problem is irresistible within our political and economic system, and this is why we need to have read

That is what we should be obvious will revolutionise the change you need to have the restitution easy might cannot be made in this again to court, Malcolm X. This system is, am it's impossible to have freedom, justice and equality for black people? in the same way, that is impossible for a chicken to lay a duck egg. It's just not meant to happen right and once we realize it will start thinking of much bigger solutions to our problems. That's a pat for me! That's a pair of operations. Argument to tell you has the house embedded in the system is actually quite brilliant. Is because it lead you to the point that you have one hanging a minute. If you did that there would be no America, and then that tells you all America is therefore you see on it exactly and that's the problem. So, let's think about different solutions, and when you talk about power manifest in each and giving concessions, this is kind of what we see with the reparations debate. So if caricom, which is a caribbean collection, the caribbean countries are currently arguing for reparations and there they've kind of stopped asking for money. Now it's about

Can we get some development aid? Can we get an apology? Can we get some interested to know the apology quietly? Forty four is a different set of demands, a set of demands that the West could do right, it's not impossible. They could do this and then it could absolve them of their guilt to say. Well, look. We we apologize. We give you this development aid we wiped after that, but as he didn't change the problem, the problem is due to the issues today the structures of student, so you can actually do reparations in a way that makes things worse. No better. Unfortunately, yes, I say, but it's like it's one of those frets that if you pull out things fall apart, it makes me your I the so. What kind of what you going to spend the rest of your home? You might not know, but what? What were your most immediate objectives in terms of bringing about change,

do you like now that you know this stuff now that your teacher stuffing your position you're in what you're going to do, and so I think in terms of the book I'm just coming out next year. Blat blat radicalism is a manifesto theory theoretically, but also practically to say. Well, actually, what is black radicalism mean? What does his politics do? What does it lead as to why leaders to still an organization that transcends a nation state that connects us to the poorest and the most abject in either condition and says, actually lists work on building revolution and so he's kind of built on? so when Malcolm X, you have only a Malcolm let ten more times where we will revisit, where Malcolm dies he's working on the Organization of Afro American Unity- and he says this organization is- is the revolution, the organization, because you have a you, have a place here. You have a place in New York, place in the Caribbean, a place to make replacing and garner a place in all over the world, and you connect this organization together and now. You've got that kind of unity and solidarity across borders. That can actually have a prop

revolutionary change. So this is the word I'm trying to do currently hey. What do you think is the significance of Malcolm X? Is Islam ain't? It wasn't you. Meanwhile, I it was a Muslim. It was like Proper move. Everything was a devout devout muslim since last, like a you because you're coming from it would have been a a black man in England, twenty seven ain't like like: isn't he as much or could it be argued that he's a Muslim I can as well as an african american or black icon? Don't have those categories intersect, particularly in a climate where Islamophobia is present yeah. So I think MAO can be good question Kurama with mercury. Reportedly is a is it into right and actually Malcolm's? What, when Malcolm, becomes really radicalism outcomes in the nation of Islam? For about thirty two thirteen years when it comes to prison and it transfers but the news of Islam is very much a really.

If organization, in that, he says that the solution to black people's problems is to become Muslim and as a you just become muslim and as a prophecy, where God's going to wipe away all the wipe and we find so we need to do is be muslim and it is the debts, that's the kind of religion. Well, there's a lot christianity, wherever else that you don't want to have. Basically because he limits you, you don't we do anything. You just pray and eventually, Malcolm leaves, because he sees the limits of their Annie because any becomes figures soon Sony solely within the ghost exhausted. heart goes to hurt. He goes to. He goes to MECCA. He has a. He has a different kind of Islam and he, it comes, is in many ways more developed, so he he finds the Mooc Muslim mosque incorporated, but very clearly in the ballot or the bullet speech in sixty four, he says starts If the speech says, look, I'm a Muslim, but you need to leave your religion at home. Keep your religion between you and your gut, because this is not. This is not what we're talking about when we do this organization work. This is black

It was stop and you can be whatever religion you want to be, but has no impact on the politics, so Malcolm X, a very, very clear separation. Do you think was a political move, knowing that there was actually a trenchant christianity, even black population in America, that time and didn't want to cause a rift in that way. but it is also important, philosophically having you say, he's a sailor religion is that his religion is something that makes you connect to the world and makes you gives you spirituality and gives you something personally. Religion is not something that can solve any of our problems on a hear about that. To me, may is the big argument of secularism that religion, is a private ma am innua, whereas I think of lack of spirituality, if not relating to such a hot potato as having the motivational power to bring about the kind of revelation revolution is required because I, like you, know if you're so so when you so get started tea on that precipice. That you'll taken too by thinking when you pursue that reparation argument, manoeuvring alma got. That would mean the dismantling of the entire Europe. As we know,

and it and the United States of America, as we understand it, also source of reveals he didn't narratives away around the way the power transcends nation is continued, historically mast by flags and our own willingness participate rituals consumer rituals or daft secular holidays. Suddenly, all of this is exposed, and I think that if you're asking people to take on board ideas is radicalism. A simple as radical. They simply trivial, put down your phone and start caring about little kids down a mine. Is the only way they can do is with some connection to something transcendent, and I don't know, and of these services a white personnel shrilly joined it might well. I was talking to you about Malcolm X as those bits Roscoe two contradictory or for this is good. This is good stuff, professor of blacks.

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people are gonna need to find a resource. That's extremely potent in order to countenance such sacrifice- and I know the civil rights movement in in it's origins. You know likes of them. Early student type protest swept then goes got murdered right people. I read the brilliant thing. I think about that: Malcolm Black Bow, so it's pretty good thing by saying that the kind of allegiance is reformed and works of local communities and tie innings, think it was an asylum houses, the limitations of social media and highlight units of proper connection. But then people also were christian, and let you know that others of what they were transcendent belief systems by what you said to very plainly and overtly their boldly that religions not going to do nothing more like I don't feel I get a vodka and Asia very, very evident to me the way that religion is used to categorize, subjugate subjugate the shame and all those things, but I feel like as LA how can we transcend thesis

if categorization on this is by saying maybe some essence to the self and some essence to the whole world. I mean, I think lies at Dover. he's not even even Malcolm he says, look split, the two you couldn't separate Islam from his his politics Ryan. I think that that does motivate people to do things. I think the key thing is to say that there isn't one religious answer and I think that's what mark was basically trying to say is if you're a christian Motivate you if you're Muslim is motivate you if you're jewish- and it motivates you wherever it leads anywhere. We use that to motivate you, but actually in terms of the program in terms of what we're going to do in terms where we go next in terms of the alliances that we make. Religions is going to gain weight on every level right now and separate and saying that looked at the earthly problems that we have with the of the problems that we have and in some sense is blackness Imagine to expect we'll talk about. It has a version of spirituality too, as that of the connection to Venice. Why is that you're saying that Malcolm X meant waves and religion will get in the way? What won't ultimately rice get in the way? If, like? If you take your argument of

blackness, as the motorway in terms of bond for us of a revolutionary movement. Wait wait is that it what's the goal of that. Where does that leave a tunnel? We want what's the word yes, are we at the idea is always lie. I guess, if you look back with, politics would be revolutionary, but african is lacking at the african women, In an that's gonna win, let you ve got rid of Europe and China is etc. You ve got different economy, you got politic right it's never. It's never been the end for that. Politics always said Bulu, Africa, Khan and Blatter when GEN Con take part in the global revolution, because we ain't got nothing clay, we don't have anything with sweeter. Was nobody calls on blab over nothing? But when you have a power base, and if you could do this revolution, that revolution could

that would, firstly, probably undermine western capitalism to the boy would no longer exist, but he will give you the ability to to join him with other revolutions in other groups another and and support those groups, so that black, the black revolution is, if you lacked the starting point to the global revolution, but you have to have that black revolution first, I consider the argument yeah that does suck night. Why is that? Why would you? Why would I have to stop because he has to be, one of the most depressed or most severe. Why? What acknowledges in theory? You could say they could start in China. It was the other parts of the world where we say looked from earth from a black respected. We say this is and also, if you take the logic of the most severe the worst oppression, there is a strong argument for Africa being that place ass. If I may motivate, because of the economic ramifications is well Leather Lacketh Africa is a continent says without one trans lie. All of that. We want a clean slate they're, not so in the bloody hell. When you think about that debt cancellation, stuff, it's not like her and as an active large. Yes, we can

that that that's what we give you by licking your staff and killing your pace is not like an act of kindness. Is it in stopping? So in adding insult to injury there again I keep going back of a gibbon is and in the metaphors he says, if you, if you stab me in the back and then pull out a knife six inches, then I can't mug and thank you for that, and this will take isolation effectively, pulling out a knife. Six inches the knife. Still there haven't done that you haven't changed the date, cancellations didn't in the first place, was distant neocolonial tool to keep your lovers, and I know so. None of the things that the West will ever offer you is really is- is really solving the problem. You're going to take the knife out and heal the wound How do you get home with making these arguments outside of academia how'd you get on with young people, and not within academia. Eighty, how you convey these kind of ideas do. Do you.

Is that yeah I mean it's the same sola. We started the Rmb Organization of black unity. This one is fast, that's the kind of the root of it, so we took literally took Malcolm when he died before he dies, as a organization were for american unity as a constitution which nobody ever talks about. That says listen. This is what you should do and we said: ok, let's do it, Let us see what see if it works that are working in Birmingham to get to talk to people talk to young people, older people,

we're in the early stage, but we know we are constantly having these conversations as I campus on campus as well and you're, probably not surprised people relate to them. People understand that people get that this this world doesn't couldn't have a rightful path brilliant. If, as I suppose, even if you don't economic, if you don't know it with knowledge as it was like a intent or information, I mean, if you don't know information somehow you know that you are in your gas that there's something I think in people that resigns. When people talk about political apathy, I think it's that there's no apathy is a rational. Oh that's that thing that with me, they may participate in that yeah and people. Don't weed, haven't given people the opportunity to be involved, particularly in radical politics and radical politics. I mean radical. Has become a bad word in generated for around about Islam in terrorism, and they set such a badly. What we ve done with this is we ve completely misunderstood. What radical is so radicalism and Jack is more. A stream is under the complete opposite things like completely and utterly. How so

Extremism is when you take the the basic premise of a society or an idea, and you take it away. Then it makes any sense to take it. That's ms latest death. What will happen with these terrorists? That's the same as Nazis. That's the same with Christie, fundamentalist, etc or radicalism is the opposite radicalism. You take the fundamentals and you reject them. He said well, actually I don't want these. I don't like, so you look at capitalism and say: look now, I'm gonna be a marxist. To look at is going to be a radical and you reject it. So in essence, you can't actually have radical Islam, because radical Islam would cease to be Islam, who just wouldn't be, would be something else. So we've completely conflated extremism and radicalism and made radical a dirt, We actually radical that we will need to be that's where we need to be pushing people toward that. Wasn't a coincidence, then thing that that word has been deliberately tarnished yeah, because if you think was fifty only fifty years ago, the late sixties, it was- and people really underestimate- that the fact that we were on the precipice of global

pollution. I mean really really. If you think of communism in the east of the african continent is massive politics. There sat America there was a. There was a moment where I looked like the West may not win and he may not survive, and since then they have this literally destroyed with both violence, physical violence and also symbolic violence that destroyed radicalism. So they told us that radicalism is bad relatives wrong. Radicalism is violent. Radicalism is all these things and pushed us away from those radical movements, but really radical movements are the solution to the city's problem. The only solution, probably to these problems technically criticize some contemporary figures, Eddie you've got some lack of proper provocative quotes and stuff eg. What about that? Theresa may is worse than Donald

ass. He was ever forget about what it was logical, pampered, ass. Well, at a gay aside, what Marco Biagi lies an insular literally I just come out of it. I do call the people's work, but he, who is the Kabul that came from a paper of just re literally in a book about Malcolm distinguish between the the southern Woof, whose kind of bears the teeth very aggressive, a very openly racist and you gotta know they're the problem because they are banging on your head and they'll shoot you etc Aberdeen. Actually, the worse in the southern Woof is the Northern Fox who's. The tricky who's cunning, who tell you tell you everything's fine in this whisper sweet nothings into your ear, but really they're, just as bet and if you think about racism at the time in America and civil rights. Movement is all about the south and it was about in all the southern wolf was about segregation. It was about, let's, let's, let's get rid of this overt racism, but in the north. It would, though, you haven't, got legal

education is the setting more say in the north than it is in this area and look at looking today nowadays look at the police killings, they usually in the north and the south. Look at the ghetto! That's enough! and not the surf as well, and so, even though the north's telling you all these wonderful tales by itself is just as bad and in some ways is worse than herself, as this is the kind of thing same with a Theresa may Donald Trump. The wolf very very clearly openly were immediately re. Why Superman's, racist obvious is quite proud of it. Seeming action is lack of white supremacist racism that revealed without Charlottesville moment. Always there are other

after that, historically, in the nineties there was a big case in central park where it was these and there rape in central park in it- and it was it- was picked pinned on a group of gang rape is please African Americans gang Americans gangs was supposedly gang, raped white woman. Complete lie, complete fabrication. Who was there jump champion this myth? Donald Trump Donald Trump was the one of the worst offenders in this central park, five rape case. Then you got Barack Obama's, not not american Champion Donald Trump or profaned hollow dramas. Actually bud, and now you ve got the muslim ban. You got Charlottesville you ve is. I is always look at very asked. Mary racist attitudes raises Her dress varies historically girl. Presently listen up. His bright bought Teresa may has tried to close their self. In being, You know. So when she was home secretary, she was in the police, stop research, she ordered a review and to stop in search.

I just the other day she had all the race anti racist campaigners in her office around the same, let's look or talk about racism. Let's tell you the stats that I could have told you the day before, but anyway we're going to have a big parade about how bad the countries she likes to pretend that she's she's good on race, but she terrible images as home secretary. And if you look at the policy around migration, three thousand poverty,

is the people from african countries denying people entry into the country, letting I mean she literally had a policy that said we're not going to send boats into the Mediterranean to save drowning black people. What is going to let them drown to deter other black people from coming method, dead, negro policies. What he's basically saying right thought if you look at government policy, look at what he's done: IRAN she's terrible on race, but she presents herself as being someone. You can talk to someone you can relate to that's the northern route, which is more dangerous right yeah. I feel that that's correct. I like that as a slogan that stop of racism as this or that stop overt racist this overt racism here, we ve got to see how the king over racism football is if it could be much more subtle racism mouth is that covers the truth of this network crafty racism. So the Donald Trump argument there's something

I like that gosh. Is it not an easy argument for a white person or an english person to make an on both of those things? You are only one of them. So, like is this something to be said. The the grotesque amplification and the Trump represents a southern wolf argument that something bad beneficial in the aid, an on a normal hideous carbuncle, most all my god. We are now confronted with war outside means, whereas as long as you had, as you said, there was a different kind of violence. a mesh did Barack Obama in the concealment of the apparent fuck see we ve got a black president, but I do think that there is something to the on where it leads to almost, if not positive, cathartic, about Donald Trump gear, say it myself controversial, but brother, Donald Trump as a precedent,

echo bomb. Honestly I mean really in terms of races. Use is just clear is obvious. Is it tells you exactly what you need to know about the society is a bomb, is funding is making. It seemed like a something is not, and if you look at the protests, you look at the movement of building an angry about things that they're into in a way. It wasn't necessarily, I mean it's not like he wasn't. There completely mean black lives matter emerges under Obama, partly because I think people were like we've got a black president shouldn't. We expect a bit more Yes, but I think if you look now, who look at definitely the rhetoric around american racist, this is problem. Did it at a haven't. You seen that come back more and that's what we need as a starting point for the kind of politics we need. Donald Trump hero of african American, our idea how can I ever by Belgrade, ineffably out

I will say it I'll put it on record. Donald Trump is a better president for Black America than Barack Obama. Wow, that's cool, because, like the thing that seemed that software that appeals to me is that I think- and this is obviously a personal thing- as opposed to a cultural thing for me- is I don't like bullshit? I don't like the feeling that we're not actually dealing with the problem. It's always made me feel uncomfortable and it's if we want to take over tables is made me want to be explosive and to release a kind of show manic volatility into the atmosphere, because I feel that no, this is,

we'll have something it was a person or a comes from a personal experience, but perhaps there is no distinction between personal political experiences. On some level, I felt as a kid there's something ain't right and score, for this isn't right, like that filled with truth, is not being conveyed on a very sort of practical level. What will I, while I was at school feeling like I don't feel like this- is a beneficial experience, I'm having lack of interest in my little belly so like I would at least like yeah, like one of these geezers and also in alike, as the President And it now see now per power is in pretending to be your friend anymore, and I don't see how any the only sense of attachment or connection a large, agile affection anyone could have done. Troubled me like that. Guy looks like how I feel I feel angry. I don't like lie there and he looks like that feeling as president so you'd like

imagine how anyone could have any legitimate sense of allegiance that you feel that what well do you feel that without Charlottesville do you feel like? Oh, I suppose you don't feel like it's your problem, but sometimes I feel like we're like white people marching around with He taught is in charge of your weapons statue or something that seems doing so of really sort necessarily and literally abstract. In factories dealing with simple life, like your life, will not get better if you pursue your argument, if it's the natural conclusion of repatriation, no way for a zoom into your personal life will improve. How do you do not consider that to be part of the argument that is required by law? Said Black Yoon, a Juve? much more, focusing on creating solidarity. Member, my I mean this is that the counter counterargument to the to the whiteness of his soul. As you look at the mid. Probably a chunk of the people in jobs will a number the people who vote for Donald Trump, why people did not really gain anything of over two hundred made and voices to get rid of your health

very good boy, whom are you crazy seasons, all the time to actually vulgar things which make their situation much more than? What was right, and I guess that's the kind of counter argument to this does whiteness. If you could tell me, Well, listen! If they would understand this, then maybe they would actually their interests will be better served with a bigger lot of people with everybody else right with a different kind of politics. That the thing that I felt for a lit wall is the way that power operates is they must be a strata of people and institutions, for whom the way that systems operate are not problematic for, for whom the systems are functioning correctly, there's a struggle. Now there is no problem, because this is perfect. This is doing what it's meant to do then write rightness of an archive, I'm not in that then there's another one. That's a privileged elite that whether it's slept for Minnesota from an entertainment background. It's like! Oh I'm pretty cool I'm Greg over. I want and do a one as long as I don't rock the boat. As I found out when I wrote the battery and I am and then beyond that it's just various degree.

These are fucked accountant down and down and down until you've got nothing in an as and if it isn't part of the problem that people that they it's very difficult that once you're in both of us in our way and now included ins culture. In a way this I was pretty good. We've got status power so light that most people go out and see him as Batman in light of and find a halt to. What was that thing? You said about privilege, diversity I privilege yet privilege. Yes, yes, I'm here, and I think I think this is this is by the problem. I also it is really important to think about

He said as those layers of people who is not problem for am. I will extend that to more people than probably most people would extend that to, and I think that's important right at even the poorest person this country doesn't deal with child def really on a daily basis, doesn't doesn't have those exclusions, and so they may be problems, and there may be huge problems of inequality, but with the politics that we're mobilizing. Are we just trying to make it be better for people here or are we trying to make it better for everybody? And I think there is a consensus. You come to say well, look you have a be original Bordeaux who equal, arabic and everybody will be perfectly happy, but it wouldn't solve the problem of child death and poverty. Yes, I agree, I agree, and it must be taught to care quite a hindi, though they that the argument can be made from the right to demotivate people. I think that even the poorest people in this country you're doing a riot at least you're, not dealing with lights on that kid, in a mine in like an emo,

Heres a list of what was it? What what do you think I'd be in an educator? What do you think of the obligations of from from a perspective of education? What should we be being tool? The reality of color? Elizabeth of Imperialism, without what the impact with that have I'm having I important. So what war is the reality like? What is the empire. You think about we, the people, don't know you can't judge people for what they don't know and unfortunately we don't know that system is terrible at telling us things which are really important. So I think teaching of our empire. Let's teach just that if you just have, let's teach an honest account of weighted Britain Gates will from where does Brian sustain his wealth to date and understand how the global system works and how the global system privileges I want you to get justice that now be a starting point, but it will be, but I think is about more than us over exemplary the black studies degree. We stayed We have these arguments, but then we put them into practice says they will actually going to do better.

Where are you going to mobilize? What does that mean to how you act in the community? How do you as an actor as an academic? I can just be an academic. I have to be an active staff to be a member of the community, have to be building these organizations and doing this work and really teaching people that they have a responsibility to make this better. The kind of is out on competent us with the privilege to make things better. I think that's important well by flashing important. The first part seems like I can imagine that feeling like a kind of heresy, which makes me recognize again how arbitrary the distinction between what you call, what one calls the religious and what one calls the ECHO, how that lies average agree if you are going to school guy right. This is what british empire is without nation in death, and this in Africa. For Britain, on that in Ireland, as one who comes, you can have the cocoa pops enjoy lunch like like enough. There's no, don't say

That was going to ruin everyone's morale sports day tomorrow, but that's the first thing hooker in his eye and with that black studies course how's it going and how many people are on it and is it all black people so he's going well first year ago by twenty students Why were we expect it to get without target to get these activities will be eligible for the first time, I'm sure anymore. African american studies is a large lots of white who asian people would be takes a while it is the staff yeah. What about that, woman that I felt like she was black and natural stories, which one is always lies in an idea. I feel like a black actually, so I am if I'm gonna, where do we go with that I think that I was it. You do university in my amazement, and I was given a talk about blackness citizens

and african American Studies Department and somebody turned around and said well actually, the way you're talking about blackness been his political concept set to letter. Doesn't that mean Rachel Dolittle is black and I was shocked I mean I couldn't believe it, because african megacities thought it had been a bit more nuance. Let's say already covered by which a bicycle basic course alpha about, but I think Somebody like that. I mean, if you you'd, taken. If, if, if what, if my argument is that that the color of my skin is important because of the history of in work tells about me and white, tells me about the connections into then you can't just fake, like you can't make their own life. That's the thing that reunites you politically tainted to to pretend is the complete and only destroy the concept of immunity, in essence, so is, is utterly offensive, but I would never get really mad about this cause. He probably has come into

I mean we are realistic and want to be black later really want to be bled. What is it, then, that that takes a particular distorted view of the world? the music in the edge motorcade on the slavery yeah, I say as interesting. whose identity politics can become very divisive in, as well as creating right cohesion and momentum and his old moment, I feel around these kind of ideas and I suppose, as white Mile, I'm uniquely qualified to pontificate factory

as I car Hindi, that was an amazing interview. I really really enjoyed it. I feel properly like educate. You don't have broad area of topics plus we got stuck in with some real populism. I think, notably, the moment of Donald Trump is a better precedent for Black America and Barack Obama that some radicalism right here, hopefully, people will put people's mothers, will put a picture of Donald Donald Trump on the wall after I said it, I bet your mom cried when Donald Trump Become President he's going to cry. Listen to this yeah thanks my eggs. They show was sponsored by my book recovery, which is number one best seller in the United Kingdom and New York Times. Miss best seller go Amazon. Gift wherever you are in the world? Take the island actually we're not enough room to irish people. Come on irish people. You know I love you come in your country soon! also come see Myanmar Rebirth tour

love that's on London, first and first, First October, first November, remember we reading a book. There are special recovery event. Makin come in. There have been a book, shouted any face. Getting something signed then having to drink for our found in a comeback counts, thus doing no much outcries can be great. but a second it I'll be in nine M Ivan November Coventry, THA, eighth I'll, be in Leicester, ah the glory of the Lord. Finally, if you like the show subscribe to review it, give it five star view use unusual language in words, really express yourself in that review. I love you and we will continue to learn together.