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prohibited by law, eighteen plus terms and conditions apply, see website for details I'm a You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Monday Dahmer her night stalker We another fascinating author talking to both the most shocking and infamous killers. True crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author dan, as if asking the. good evening, internationally known legal ethics. Professor richard citrons work as a trial lawyer placed him on the front lines of fighting systemic racism, pervasive elite tourism and injustice against it.

the jewels in the legal system in trial lawyer. He shares details of the most compelling cases these encountered and exposes the dilemmas he's faced throughout his one of a kind career, the profound, the consequential, the shocking. The bizarre and even the humorous trial lawyer brings to light what it means to represent people against power from his first case does a young law student on the famous and highly politicized san quentin six case, and throughout his forty year, career citron has worked on dozens of cases that underscore the inherent biases of the legal system towards people of color, the poor, the less educated and those who just don't appear too. the more of whatever society considers normal. His personal stories about him bring the reader inside the court. to experience a unique cast of characters, strange but true, facts, brilliant trial tricks and tactics.

And not so brilliant ones that failed miserably each had its own lessons about social justice, fairness strategy, ethics, morality and more The book there were featuring this evening is trial lawyer, a life representing people against power, with my national guest attorney and other richard citron welcome to the programme, and thank you so much with his interview, richard zidane and you for having began. Thank you so much a very, very fascinating story and quite unique for this programme. Let's talk about what you right in the introduction, you said that this is a book of reach flexion on the most compelling cases that you're that you have encountered during your it was a trial lawyer tell us what most of these cases consist of an and what you found about ordinary,

people in extraordinary circumstances? There must be the case, as I did after the first one that you mentioned were ordinary cases that didn't got an awful lot of publicity. Son got sound, but not a lot necessarily diana extraordinary features. Bizarre things that occur surprise was that occurred in the courtroom. Sudden changes in defending tactics or sudden changes in prosecution tactics surprised all kinds of unique and unusual things can happen. I'm a storyteller unless someone has written a few other books. I was encouraged by people to tell my own personal story, so this I was kind of a memoir about these cases, but, as I got more deeply into it, giving the background is: we will address professor for forty years. It wound up being a lot about how to deal with

disadvantaged people, people who, having had a fair shot in the system and also how to deal with my own sense of my own responsibilities. To my clients and about that responsibility that it supersedes all others that explain further or we have what we call a fiduciary duty, as that term is used mostly with finance banks, and so on lawyers have a fiduciary duty to their clients founded simply fifty interested the clients have had their own interests and that's not necessarily easy to do sometimes is high, to figure out where your own interest, stout and the clients interest began, but the main thing that I learned from the very first day I was practising law why's- that my obligation was to put my clients interests first and try to protect that clients before worrying about my shop is a basic principle of ethical lawyer. You say that it's a scam

actually important when it appears that the system is being unfair to a to a client. Doesn't it from its? My experience has been largely which clients for whom the system did not give them and even break a lot of times. That's because they were poor a lot of times there were people of color or other people disadvantage by the system, whereas I suggested peoples and just don't fit. What does society as a whole, considers normal were ordinary behaviour, and those people have a much tougher wrote a whole than the average. Doesnt have those handicap. So there is a special responsibility that I fell for it, many many of my clients along the way because they weren't getting a fair shot that other people, like you, also in this book address when it comes to criminal cases. There have been two questions that you been ass more than any others. What are those

two questions, and what are your answers to those two questions? The first one is happy they represent? People, if you know that their gouty, I think those questions actually get subsumed in put together and that single question. How can you represent people If you know that their county and the reason is that, of course, everybody is entitled to defend and nobody is guilty until really ensuring comes back and unsuccessful. There are all kinds of circumstances relating to a case. Then extenuating circumstances then explain. in this situation so that, in one case that I have very early night premier, man named elden draughtsman. You killed another man, but it was self defense son was he guilty. He had committed a homicide, but that's not a cry. He had committed murder in the sand plant in such case, which you mention dan underlines back inside the locked down about major united states prison

so unfathomable that no one could really ascertain what happened and to this day, really knows why have shown to assume that somebody is guilty, because there are too few or maybe even because there's an extraordinary amount of evidence only tells part of the story. Now there's another reason here. Our system grew out of the system that existed in england in the sixteenth. Nineteen january, and at that time they had start shameless way in which the accused would be told by the agenda. it's that, even if the jury found them not guilty, the judge was finding them guilty and in one case involving william Penn one of the founders of pennsylvania. The jury was told that if they didn't come back with a guilty verdict day two would be thrown in the present. That's not the kindest we want the united states and so to a certain extent, we reacted again

that by creating rights to people, were accused of crimes so that nobody is conducted in the crowd unless a jury finds that there, yeah. Well, you extraordinary legal career- and I were talking about in this book. Your first murder case, you'd only been a lawyer for three years, so tell us how you came to be work with David Mayer and how you came to represent johnny, spain and how you came to work on the san quentin six case, where I come out to and francisco to do my third year of law school I have been here a week when a friend of mine you told me that he had just turn down a job with a fellow named David mayor, working in a highly published eyes, murder case in san quantities. They pray and iraq. demanded that I don't have an interview with David and young. I hit it off. Man David. I heard me on the spot to be a lot of ground the case I was paid factor

hours an hour by the marine county superior four miles, such the count, their stand, Quentin, locate, course- five dollars an hour was more then than it is now, but a share was very much money. David turned out to be a great mentor, a very, very dedicated lawyer, a former defense, a former prosecutor down in southern california, who had gone into the air force and seen the can't do that. Accuse people had of getting a fair shape in their court, raise your court martial, kinder, revolutionized him and turned him with the fence lawyer when he got out of the air force. Instead of going back to the days off, as he decided to come up to northern california and start defending people, including a lot of people and stand quaintness

I pressed now based on that he got a reputation and so people that were imprisoned, we're talking, and so they are one of the defendants asked for him to be appointed his lawyer. What happened in that regard Yes, you ve gotten a reputation for doing a great job. Rapporteur prisoner is one of the same quantity named william take reached out to David said, I'd like to have you appointed to represent nearly in this case and David presented. at request to the judge. On the case. His name was Henry Broderick. Broderick was not very fond of the san quentin six defendants. He saw them as guilty people, he also frankly sovereign in as sixteen I would call her boo were not common in his own personal experience, and so he pulled a fast one on David and appointed him, but not to represent. Will he take instead to represent Johnny Spain, who was the only member of the black panther,

among the search to find that out, johnny and David after the wrong foot, a situation that has been created frankly by the trojans. So he was the son in this case are appointed this case. There was far more difficult with what the judge and prosecutor felt was the most guilty of the six defendants. Johnny was the one most closely associated with george jackson, who was the leader of the black panther party and was killed himself on the day in which the sand quietly six violence occurred. There was a history that violence that I can it. Brain briefly. If you would like me to absolutely started in early nineteen, seventy george jackson had been assigned to follow that prison where

He came under the tutelage of eddie, I'm an inmate name, w Nolan, who was one of the founders of radical black prison brooch one day in january of nineteen. Seventy a guard shop into the yard at followed. I presume wages down near monterrey and killed three black inmates and when the grand We examined the situation they exonerate the guards from all three shootings about two weeks later, a guard was thrown from trying to cheer tears the stories on a thousand that exist. They usually three or four or five tears like apartment The floor was thrown from the third floor tier into the yard and was killed and jackson and two other people were accused of killing that car in retribution for the cap.

Norman. Those three became known as the father tat brothers. After that time, Jackson was sent to SAM quietly and eventually the eventual august, twenty first nineteen. Seventy one occurred which jackson was killed by guards and five other people die in the interim in august of nineteen seventy after the If you say she against jackson and the other to solid out brothers Jackson. Seventeen year old brother invaded the marine county court house went into a court room with guns, kidnapped a judge and a district attorney and left an outside the courtroom undergoing junior car. There was a shoot out. Three of the invaders were killed, including church shot, his brother John of them, and the judge was also killed. So this created an atmosphere of extraordinary fear, an concern on the community both

law enforcement community, and also the african american, through unity and the other communities to color in and around standpoint and state prison, and it was in that, in the event that a year later, the san Quentin exchanged arose and such people were You're right? It is a little more involved too, because the gun that Jonathan used jackson used was found to be purchased why Angela Davis we ve been fired you see all aid or for being a communist, then was reinstated than required. or inflammatory language such as calling cops pigs, and so a couple months after Since an annual davis was charged with murder, wasn't he I, an Angela Davis by that time had already become extremely well known because of her outspoken, a statement that both the unknown wait around you see. I am she, had been terminated by use your way, which was banned reversed by the courts. So she was

already very well known and when it was found that the guys were supposedly purchase. Angela Davis. This was a front page that she was accused of murder, along with one prisoner rules in that car, where people died, died and she became a fugitive for a period of time. She was feeling captured, I'm quite soon thereafter put on trial and was acquitted of all charges. Let's go back to working with David mare, on this case, and this all the lessons but you did learn all the work did you did do on their behalf and I'm gonna tell you down. most single most extraordinary Yeah I heard in the law was the day. I first went out the same question to me:

johnny, spain guy, had no idea what to expect that has never been in a prison before I think I have only been in the jail once or twice, and the security of the prison was extraordinarily. I light of these homicides we were brought into. A tiny little visiting rang, it was about the size of two found goes back to back. Separating us was a plastic she'll, impenetrable shield that went all the way down. about two inches above a little narrow table. Johnny sat on one side of this and we sat. On the other hand, you couldn't even here clearly the sound was muffled by the state plastic. An extraordinary thing happen, David extended. His fingers, the tipps of his fingers under the metal grabbed it was at the bottom of the plastic and johnny extended his fingers and they shook hands by shaking.

fingers together with each other. That was the only way of doing it, and then I did the same thing. It was really extraordinary thing that there was such a separation between our ability to connect with our clients? for why, while we were in those roommates, we frequently didn't talk, because there was the terrifying and guide sitting to feed behind johnny. Listening to everything we said it, so we would often take ballpoint pens and river what we were saying to the person. We were talking to pass the no in the little space between the partition and the table and once the, it had been read. We checked the note back and scribble over over japan. The circular motion, so no one could possibly read it. It was the only way we felt we could have confidential communication with our own client and to me being a kind of white suburban kid from a relatively privileged background. It was

Fatima, I think I was shot. You write it also you worse. It was like an hour a worldly experience when you say that the extent of the animal city towards the defence deep- oh yes, we will get. There are nine o clock in the morning and funding of those very slept for John. I know these guys were locked down and of what is called the adjustments centre, which was the most highly secure area at that time. The most highly secure california prison san quentin. They were locked down twenty three and a half hours a day and sometimes for more that they got showers only two days: the weak there. no ability to visit anybody other and their legal g, and we were told you. Nevertheless, alas, we got there at nine o clock and asked to be able to visit, then for one reason or another. There was no rest to bring into the business or he was busy doing something else or he was taking a shower.

There was no availability out with the adjustments answered to bring him over to where we were. Sometimes we waited for three or four Hours, cooling are used in the business right before even got to see if that was pretty typical animosity that we receive was palpable it beyond my but we believe unconcernedly animosity, that the fish dependence will you write that you began everything with to learn all the relevant facts by reading transcripts from the first court appearances in nineteen seventy one, and also that serve you learned of the prosecution story of what they believe had happened and the chart is subsequently right. Well, there was an indictment. It was three hundred and sixty eight pages long and it described I've been merit. It was supposed to happen,

and then there were transcripts of the first couple of hearings, after which the case was suspended or stay by the appellate courts, and it was stayed until from october is nineteen seventy one until just before I arrived on the scene and drew up. Ninety he shouted. These rate, the transcript of the grand jury, presented a very convoluted the somewhat unbelievable theory and the theory was this a white lawyer from a privileged background that from our family of connecticut senators and congress, people and stuff, like that named Stephen bingham, supposedly put a spanish world war. Two gun called an astra into a small tape recorder that he brought inside san quentin prison to visit johnny's

right, a visit, George Jackson, supposedly according to the prosecution, somehow the gun got transmitted to Jackson and visiting work. I'm Jackson supposedly hit the gun under a week that he was wearing and after a week that he was wearing and took it with two clips that would be inserted into the gun. Back should the adjustments doktor after the interview and when he entered the adjustments answer according to other prosecutions case, the guards looked at him. Most of them to see anything wrong. One ladders fingers through jackson's weird and didn't see anything when all of a sudden. Again, according to the cars he pulled out, the guy pulled off, but we were

one had pulled out the guy with a second and with what appeared to be a third hand according to lodge a golden rules and common challenge, placed the clap inside the gun and said this: is it the dragon I can't read this soon. We analyzed it looked around the testimony from Everybody who, just with ahead of the grand jury and there's just didn't, make they held a lot of sense. Then he seemed possible that the events could have occurred and the way that was being described by the press. And there was a great feeling among the sixth abandons that also, I must say many and most of the lawyers soon agreed with that the prison have set up. birds, jobs. In light of the solid, a case in which he was accused of murdering a garden was thrown from the two year. I'm not here,

in the year behind the savant was to kill george jackson in a fake attempt by george jackson to escape from the adjustment center and that what happened was he got out of hand you're right that he's charged with conspiracy without them specifying who was actually murdered and who was actually all involved in the conspiracy to murder. Things right, thank you very early on the case, as I was put in charge, doing a motion to dismiss the indictment, because we couldn't tell go. Johnny staring was in conspiracy. Well, at least six were conspiring with people or person or persons unknown. How do you defend they have their conspiring with people and they're, not telling you. The people are soaring argument was we were not. Can I noticed you put their case was really about. They were saying these six people.

It? Various bad things or maybe they didn't do them themselves, but other people with whom they were conspiring may have killed the five people who were killed that day in san quentin other than george Jackson, but they weren't telling us who the people were. So our question was put in layman's terms this, how there? How can we defend johnny's man if he is accused of conspiring when the color and you're not telling us through them the tolerance and yet that's the way you have drunk. You explain the mirror and its role what we do with the information that we had as reviled much cloudy demurrer, which legal pre feeling that attach the indictment and the man was based on this. You have not provided us notice in this indictment of how we can possibly defend the case.

are not telling us to the co conspirators? Are you not giving us notice in a way that makes it fair for us to be able to defend our clients in this case johnny spending, but was true with all six of the class, and this was really a great lesson to me about unfairness. I had grown up with unfairness. I had grown up seeing and understanding something about the unfairness that people of color face the racism that black people faced the harder road it was for black people to travel and indigenous people and other people of color, but I had no clue as to the extent of the unfairness- and this was basically a case in which a prime

the tuition was trumped up by a claiming that the fifth man had conspired with people that they weren't going today. So our motion was a demurrer to satisfy the indictment completely because it failed to provide us notice on how to defend the case. I thought it was righteous, but, needless to say, we lost and we lost pretty much every month, let we try? One motion that you felt was very very important and you talk about it in the introduction right away about the changing of the defendants in court and this whole elaborate handcuffing and chaining explain that boy's grandmother sprang the way the change worked so when they were brought to court, the sixth and, in fact when they were brought to visits in the prison. Each of the six, including John, He had learned she running between their legs attached with ankle races. They also have a waste. Jimmy

around their ways and attached to the ways Jane was a short six or eight in shape that went to hand so there were some shame around their raised. An issue on each side going to each of you haven't got so that they could now extend their armies far enough really to even right note the us, without leaving their whole body over and with their arm constrict inside the eight inches, be able to try to write something to us in addition to that, they also had neck races that they act aware The chinese embraces a day out of my own accord with twenty six pounds. When we working on motions about the law, the man, the lack of evidence.

ambiguity of the indictment? The six defendants were most concerned about emotion, that they called the on shackling most. There were most concerned about the chains and I got to be the only person in writing that motion, because they felt that, with all these chains, twenty six why did they could not communicate with their own lawyers, because the chains were still restricted that they could neither set out right in record time, nor could they communicate and they barely could by virtue of the waste change that are attached to man, cups, and you know I was in the courtroom, many many days and I saw those chains and they were absolutely right. We asked the judge to make specific findings as to why the chain

you are necessary and the judge merely you guys and coming over from the adjustments that are granted the most violent placed in the entire state prison system and I'm gonna get you showing them cortlandt and no inquiry which really help to determine whether the chains we're at nasa sorry whether the chain, I've been removed, worthy defendants have acted out or whether they would have simply They will be able to use their real asked that motion to tell us about judge, store and his actions regarding these chains well along the way. My mentor David mayor an idea, far motion to set aside the grenelle jury indictment based on the fact that the grand jury was not a jury of our clients peers. There were very white, there were very upper middle class, but there was no diversity. There was now at an activist city,

Sir David found this motion saying that the grand jury was not a fair constitution of the population of marine county is the whole which did have some poorer areas. Nobody, at present around the ranger. We didn't really think we were going to win that motion, but the motion had the effect of requiring the entire superior court of northern county to remove itself from the case, because They had so like you'd, be rancher and therefore were an eligible to rule on its viability. So they brought in a judge from about account, be in all retired white hair, infernal install. It must have been seventy five years old, at least, and we thought on my gun about a county. You know conservative territory, all right, or judge, or we must travel, but when he got on the bench, the six complained as they did at the beginning of

everything were here, you can. The court ruled that the change them were too tight and, unlike what judge broader a dime judge stall, does something extraordinary. He got up from the bench and he walked down to the well of the court laid before the sixth defendants were treated any examining their legs chains and their handcuffs first, and then he turned to the san quentin guards who were watching and then set it. You need to loosen these handcuffs and move from these chance, and if he had done I else he had earned the respect of each one of those six defendants because he was treating them the first time they were ever treated this way in the courtroom. He was treating them like human beings that this is as an opportunity to stop to hear from our sponsor he shipped product from your business. What if your business was treated like a fortune? Five hundred company with the

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morocco, true murder, in the subject line of your email. So they know your friend Dan sent you that's ten percent off when you go to w w w dot main street logistics dot, see a and use pro I'll call to murder. In the subject line of your email, main street logistics front line anywhere anytime, now richard, we were talking about what happens with judge stall and this state of proceedings again stay of this trial, but also be right. Next about the issue of segregation, and in this case should regain, it means what they call on the presidency, s them administrative segregating, which is basically isolation being placed tonight. Without any adjustment center. There were two tears: yeah look down on a set of windows, one I looked out on absolutely nothing. The people with the ceta windows, outside one's your while the people where johnny

on the other. Software had nowhere you're going outside. So there was no outside exercise. These people in segregation suffered, among other things, that they had a half hour of actual signs, a day which, when it was incomplete, they didn't get that if they had a shower day two days a week, they didn't get directs exercise when they were removed from a cell tear gas was routinely you when they had personal family visits were limited to one per week. The cell floors had no training and they frequently blooded because of poor pipes, overflowing toil were technical. They had no tv, the air, no radio, they

a lack of demagogy about patients study and they are two separate script cells is. There were called which were reserved for people who miss behind which had no wash basin and only a hole in the floor for waste elimination as they called it, and a single two hundred what ball controlled outside the shop. These conditions were things the journey and I and the other six talk about all the time they were horrific and I was tasked near the end of the case to do a written, habeas corpus. The position regarding the conditions of confining habeas corpus bring the body before the court here, three the person. But to say these conditions are confinement are unconstitutional and cruel and unusual vanished, and indeed they were. I can't imagine how any degree of savvy I've been maintained by these.

Six individuals and the other people incarcerated there. Under these conditions, and eventually, after the case itself, judge alfonzo zircon of the northern district of california federal court agreed and declared most of these conditions unconstitutional and required changes such as outside time and exercise every single day and many other changes that made life a little bit more how about your people in several dish, you say that this case judge stalls decision was eventually overturned but johnny to succeeded in getting Charles gary to be his counsel and David Mare was relieved of his duties, but the hiatus in case you spend a lot of time with Charles Gary any offer due to culture It will be the second chair on the upcoming trial. What was

indecision and why, while first church, so not only did he loosen the handcuffs, but then he did something really incredible. He threw out the indictment and agreed with our theory that a grand jury was not fair, I thought there was a break in the action and I'm charles gary who Johnny had wanted to represent the christian chocolate to blood, presented, huey, newton and other political figures, and he had this residual suspicion about David, because judge broader account foisted David and John Charles was interested in taking over the case. I spent a lot of time with charles during his period of time, talking about the case how'd you know my job is to stop market street in San Francisco. I'm learning a lot about radical lawyering from Charles. I was partners, body dreyfus in france, the giant true lions, radical left, the fence

or when the case started up again. However, I had a lot of doubts where the charles continued to have the acumen to be able to win the case. I felt strongly that David woodley, in the case he was a brilliant trial lawyer, but I saw that Charles had lost quite a bit off of his fastball, and I was concerned that he wasn't as familiar with the underlying facts of the case. Was three hundred and sixty eight pages of the indictment that I was so intermittently familiar with. So I had a choice: either go into partnership with David Mayer, who said you know, we've been working great come on and he just got sworn in. As a lawyer, be my law partner, he will try to use the criminal cases together, one second churning the case for charles and then went allowed a publicity in the latter. You now visibility better, also meant a lot of, and I was really concerned that wouldn't wind up way, and so I chose to leave the san quentin case and go into partnership with David, which turned out to be a really

joint decision. Absolutely and the epilogue you decide or pardon me you discuss. Eventually they went to trial and the law. this criminal trial in california history at that time, several months and you you write that the jury deliberate deliberations took over a hundred days. tell was a little bit more. What transpired during the deliberations were pretty incredible prosecution really didn't have much of a case because it was based on smoking, murmur aspect spirit which restore unknown, and while we are more oceans about that in the pre trial proceedings, the jury was really troubled by their families

Without of these long long deliberation three of the sixth abandons were acquitted. I every count, and there was something like fifty felony accounts. One of these ships dependence named David Johnston was convicted only a misdemeanor assault on a guard by kicking regard an tat, he was very quickly released from prison. After all, one of the others jets yogi per now was convicted of very serious crimes for cutting was thrown up two guards who live to testify and testified that yogi banal was the person who has done ourselves in this one in which there is direct evidence that this person had committed a crime. Yogi bananas was sentenced to life in prison, which is inappropriate saplings under the law for people who were in those circumstances, it committed a crime against day, correctional officer and actually

but for very many years and passed away in prison a few years ago, johnny, Spain? Our client was the only one convicted of murder of two counts of murder, which was pretty bizarre because he was accused of five and there was no claim that he himself had committed the murders and yet he stood convicted as the sole person convicted of murder. But that was just the beginning of that issue. He had a wonderful criminal appeals lawyer named Dennis Riordan, who had sat with charles and second chaired the trial and dennis twice was able to get a federal judge to overturn johnny's conviction the second time it was overturned. It was based on the shackling and judge Dalton Henderson found, as we had moved several years before, that the trial judge roderick had never determined that all of those shackles were

as the salary and then having shackled. The defendants like this made it impossible for johnny to truly communicate with his counsel, and there was a lot of evidence about it. There were times when Johnny would say it's too painful for me to go to court, I'm going to stay in the prison. There are times when he wrote letters to the judge, saying I'm in such pain on the court. I can't communicate with my lawyer. Judge Henderson understood that reversed the convictions showed that there was no grounds for the twenty six pounds of shackling and at that point, Johnny was very soon. MR president, when the prostitution decline to reproach, you must use this as an opportunity to stop for a second for these messages.

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two optometrists at or next who, prohibition some doctors employed by provision, you write about march tents, nineteen, eighty, eight and johnny walk. Not a prison in back of ill california paroled by order of an alas angeles judge. Tell us about this, You were there, your wife was there and others that is a hell of a great day. You no longer convicted on the san quentin such case, although they have yet decided mount a prostitute, but he was still in prison based on is a regional conviction in nineteen sixty seven dennis amis investigator kazi corned. Let's get a study showing that everybody in the state prison system convicted of similar murder and the similar time had already been parole and yet the parole

the continued to deny Johnny Spain, the only rooms that could possibly be his san quentin six conviction, but that had been set aside by dennis, went down and found a superior court judge in los angeles, who was assigned to the case, who ordered the parole board to parole him. While there wasn't a prob. It was his superior court judge and on that day, in march of nineteen, eighty eight we all gathered a back avail dennis is young daughter, risa, meaning then why is naomi and a few other friends and johnny dr grant a girl. I've got into my color when there's a picture, me and johnny- hardly add a gas station in fairfield california, halfway round back to go back to san francisco, where his parole plan was to live in my home, which he did While there still remains- and I can

How long ago the picture was taken because gas at that time was dollar nine strange girl. I can see the joy on our trace, your sensory Guy he came back to san Francisco. He lived in. We actually had to have my. U yours room vacated. We gave Johnny that written down on the telephone. when I came out of prison. Nineteen. Eighty eight and to this day is never going back. I talked to him last week. He brought her wish me. A happy birthday was actually is today and down that's great, Others friendship, happy birthday, and you you write about your san Quentin. Six experience. Having a enormously fact, on you in what ways you believe it changed. You really Well, I think I'm alone always I grew up and drank david grew up. In that case it was necessary.

given the political and highly visible nature in that case, and also the equivocal evidence and the really questionable, as your tuition theory, vile, every possible motion on every possible issue and then to petition for a writ to the higher court on every possible issue, and we did that mean we did absolutely everything possibly could have done and a few things that we just kind of thought of our selves. When we were done. When I realized that every case should be the sand, cracking six case that there would be no reason for any other criminal and then or any show of clients with less than that kind of fallen out of dedication and soda We were going to stop work. Is we ve done absolutely everything in our power and when the next case came along, and I write about distance second chapter of the case involving a young vietnamese kid who was being racially profile by a bunch of white kids, jenny, wren county? That's exactly what we did. We

the same, then we pulled out all the stops. We didn't make it easy for the prosecution. We called all the available witnesses and put them on the stand, one at a time, David Niven from the dash rotate. So that's what you do. You also write in this book and we don't have much time to go into it. But it's interesting that you apply these lessons, but what you ve learned and in case of Elvin drama and self defence. Can you talk about that in germany birthday guy word? the energy security guard had very little about wrapper and which were black man on the japanese in San francisco.

remarkable you're getting drunk driving Jane Eyre, you came for us. Instead, you know my public defender is most public better. My private appointed council is not doing a good job and it will you guys take on the case and a group of us six about took on his case pro bono and his case was relatively straightforward. He was accused of murdering a fallen in Bonn, mostly by stabbing in six times in the chest, and all of the stab wounds were very similar. They were the same depth, the same angle, everything else so that the coroner concluded that either alden had held bow up against a wall or had stabbed him while bo was on the ground, but we that didn't happen. Alvin was a very small man boasted six two way well over two hundred m, an album described to us how bout came after him with a knife and held them was able to duck underneath all kind of like Joseph

you sure fighting mohammed Ali and bumpo number six stab wounds underneath all similar, because balsam was moving towards alison at the time. That's a tough stance The absolute we believed Elden one of the reasons we believed, that was that ball was Alban's excrement, browns new guy, an elephant and the ex girlfriend at a young child and Ellen was trying to this detail with the young child, but in doing it he always sought out the legal age deciding and got a court order. We see the charm I took the law into his justify. May that is where my mother,

yes, so my mother, who is very strongly with an early medical doctor, you gotta, interesting pediatrician, happened to be out in san francisco visiting because we had a one year old son at tat time. She wanted to see your grandpa and she came to the trial and she listened to my closing argument and by that time we had developed a weapon, If you said, none up album didn't stab muslim. He was on the ground and he didn't hold them up against the building. The two of them were standing there, which supported our theory, but I hadn't nailed it down, and at lunchtime everybody on our team was telling me what a great job tat richard you really knowing the argument really doing a great job, they stopped for my mom and my mom. So rich rich, listen to me for a second thought. Okay, what is it? You have to go back into the church,

When you finish up your argument after lunch, you have to say to them that the answer to this question is elden drawn the kind of person We take the law into its own hands, and I thought about that. I said you know. On the one hand, he always right, through legal processes, to get the order to visit his daughter and, on the other hand, taking the law into his Hands has the second meaning using the knife, aggressively commit murder, and so the first thing I did that afternoon. Wrapping up my summation was to turn to the jury and said members of the jury want you to ask you stop this question is Elvin drama, the kind of man who would take the law into his own hands and five jurors shook their head. No, and I realized that my mom threw me, as the vessel had managed to reach the key of the case

but was held in german state and again, whose there to pick him up well open, got out of jail. The night of yours, you quit him because he had no other all round me. Maybe you can. I spent the night at all, but we knew that battle had two brothers who had actually shown up at the trial, both of whom have. Finally,

fallen heritage. Yes, we're not going to let this go if elden were still aroma. So one of the members of this pro bono team of honour, as you come from for it, we have a lot of contacts. Important we got held in a couple of contacts in portland, oregon down about jacket, told him who to talk to them. For me, I got him out to dodge the bad part. There was a strange him from his daughter. We really when he was an infant, the good provided, that is, it is able to save his life, at least at that time. About ten years ago, I got a call from the swollen and it turned out that she was elegans dog and had managed to get in touch with him, and I continue to be in touch with them after all these years, and that was,

Nobody really gratifying to hear, because here was your guy, who only want to spend some time deserting his daughter. We stand accused of murder almost convicted and then was able to reunite when his daughter many years later job every once in a while stories. Have at least a partial happy- and I want to thank you so much richard citron for coming on and talking about your book trial lawyer, a life representing people against power, some of the most compelling cases that you have encountered during your life as a trial lawyer, I wanna. Thank you very much for coming on and talking about this book for those at my want to take a look at other works of yours, or about this case and more in particular, do you do social media and you have a website. Surely

you can read about this problem, w w w that richards veteran back on this gentleman is v. T r- I am he's- got this book feature none of the other part five written. It also has a number of other published articles, but this more information about this book and some clothes from stupid people enjoyed it I was going through my publisher, political animal press is available on amazon and all the other usual places. I have an instant I'm account other facebook page, and I have a way to engage with the easiest thing to do, is go to my lips. I thought of having got berlifitzing about common. I hope your anxious in following up and running about some of the other story in addition to the post office about some wrong. You can't you somebody asked me about you. Thank you so much for coming on and discussing trial lawyer life representing people against power. Thank you so much

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