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the you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: g, eazy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker d t k every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers, true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author, then as a fan of the evening at the end of the nineteen seventy six football season more Forty harboured athletes went to Boston, combat zone. To celebrate. In the cities? Adult entertainment district drugs

prostitution ran rampant, violent crime was commonplace and corrupt police turn the other way, at the end of the night, italian american star, athlete Andy popolo is then the city's nor then was murdered in a stabbing. Three african american men were accused of the crime. His murder made national news and led to the eventual demise of the city's red light district starting This brutal murder, the combat zone, tells the story of the populace family struggle with both a devastating loss and a criminal justice system that produce two trials with opposing verdicts all within the car text of racially divided boston, brogan tree does the contentious relationships between Boston, segregated neighborhoods during a passing crisis, shine a light on a court system that allowed lawyers to strike potential jurors based purely on the racial or ethnic identity and lay?

bear the deep seated corruption within the police department and throughout the combat zone. what emerges is a fascinating snapshot of the city at a transitional moment. In its recent past Ok, we're feature in this evening is the combat zone, murder, race and boston, struggle for justice, with my special gas journalist, another jan broken welcome to the problem. Thank you very much for this interview. Jan broken them. Thank you so much for inviting me the pleasure here, thank you so much and congratulations on this very, very fascinating bore. Thank you. Thank you. You wrote that this book is up. body of more than ten years work. Tell us up, The genesis of this book project where it came from I had written for murder mysteries before I turn to this book, and when I some of the last murder mystery. I kept saying I knew at that point. I could write a murder of history and I wanted I wanted to do something else and I felt like I could make any book work and I keep saying I want to find a story

it really needs to be told- and I said that enough times and enough cocktail parties and westward where I was living raise my kid at the time and friend of mine, I was in costco, said jan. She write screenplays and I said well, I have written screenplays, but I'd never written a successful screenplay, and by that I meant not that even got made into filmed. Even that I thought it should have been made into a film is good. He I said whiney

because danny toppled him needs a screenwriter, and I said why on earth does danny poplar need a screenwriter cause? I knew him. He and my husband play basketball together. We had all daughters were the same age and he said because remember that harvard football player who got murdered in the combat zone years ago- and I was like yeah- I did remember that so I said that was his older brother, so I went back and I googled the trial. So there are two trials and annette with danny and and for estrella, whose club dash, and they were they had a director like. Oh, they had a pretty successful director who had done spin city in a

improvement and Qaeda and they needed a screenwriter to do their jobs. Then you have life as screenwriter, so I said I will write it on spec. If I have it and but I knew that, I knew that most screenplays do not get made into films. So I said you know it's just a real uphill battle, so I said but- and I felt like I could sell it as a book, so I said I'll. Do it on spec, which means you only get paid if it gets made into a movie, which means pretty much you never get paid. I could write a book and, and I'm a journalist I have to have leeway to you- know the screenplay I'll do your way, but the book has to be I'm a journalist, so it has to be the way I see things so weak region. We had an agreement on that and I quote the screenplay and I worked with indicated who's the directive, whose really was really

No, I never got paid. It was really a very valuable experience than I enjoy and he never could sell looked replay. You never get it made. We can raise the funding. You wanted to be the directory in the producer. Think so I started on the book, and so that was like in two thousand and seven I think, and I started took me about a year to write the screenplay, and then it took me another year and a half to write the book proposal, and then my agent could sell it, except he had one one publisher who interested, and that was you. Is the press doing on and they said well, we we are interested. We can't give you an advance but we'd like you'd write. It on spec- and I said no not going to do that, because that is just an unable we will not work and even then I did not know how much work it was when I said that this way, her more than I thought. So I put down the project for a couple years. I was to the job you mass and is working for the president's office in communications, running speeches and press rest.

Leases, and then I got an email like years later from the universal pressing on they said we want to go forward with this project at this time. The wool and give you in advance Firstly, what I emailed me many said there is just one marketing got you wanna: do it he's gonna? We want to do it, so they gave me an advance they wanted. In a year- and I said- ok because I thought I'd donald- search, it took me you're in house like other and then when they seems like deliberating on at the new deadlines was a year and a half people. First, you does nature In three weeks later they voted to go out of business, and I had a finding new publisher. So took me a nunnery couple years to find you, man, then they wanted. They said we really want this, because this is none of this is now nonfiction at the publisher or the editor university present fear my industries, and he wants me to utilise those techniques. So

I said, well aren't happy to read it straight journalism because it really didn't require that many changes, but I put in those changes and then finally, it got published and the whole thing start to finish was Beth was about ten years, almost pelosi about danny and Andy and friend tell us all about the popular family before we talk, How are they came to be in the combat zone november? Nineteen, seventy six? Okay, so they were raised pretty much in the north end. There italian. There you're both sets of italian grandparents and all their cousins in and aunts and uncles with their hands. You view, Google, the name pablo in Boston you'll get like three to any bottlers. In our view, there are hit big big family and they lay under the graph on whether grandfathers and a business grandmothers shelly on business, provisioning with time provisions provision in restaurants, but they grew up in a very smart you better partner with the boys in one bedroom, the parents another in france,

I had to sleep on a your pull out couch in the living room and they considered themselves incredibly incredibly privileged because they had their own bathroom, where the city was so poor. At that time, the north and a lot of times you get an apartment. You had to share a bathroom in the hallway with the other apartments and take your you went to the public baths. You know it was just a different era of sixties and seventies. Boston was a lot poorer than the people can many people remember and so by the time fran was like sixteen, the father said: parents had raped, she can't see, but she needed their own room. So they they finally found a house. You know they could ford in jamaica plain, which is another neighborhood of Boston, more mixed. It has Irish, italian and lebanese, you know, is a more mixed community, so when the boys were probably maybe twelve and fourteen or eleven and thirteen at that time, and then they moved to jamaica plain, which is not that far from the north end and the

but they all father worked in the restaurant. The kids would work there in the in the summer times modeling olive oil. They would you know they. They went there to place that's all the time, so they were very, very, very proud of their north and routes and really related to the north. It We talk about the work, the work instinct and- and that was still by the father andrew senior, but also that, despite this, the poverty that they encountered growing up and he had always wanted to be a doctor, and so he had made it to harvard and so tell us about, its achievements and his athletic treatment is working so Andy and danny to france, the eldest, danny and and and Andy you are only at less than two years apart.

Less than two years apart, and they always shared room and they always very close and and even when they moved to jamaica plain, even one friend moved out, eight be elected to stay in the same room. They're very close Andy, as the oldest son was just an over achiever from day one. He would. he would just work harder than anybody else to be the best. He was also very skilled, athletic early, as was danny really Then he was easy going one and he was happy to just adores older brother and then they weren't competitive as brothers can be. It was more like and he was always trying to boost standing up and danny was just happy to admire his brother. They both for the parents in other in the north end and which is that time is a headquarters for the massachusetts, small and fight, had gone to school with some of the Angelo brothers. Andrew, though, is there for the family that run the mark, the more than an you don't hear back for marine. He was offered a corner and ye had very respectively decline.

Because he had really other ideas for his family. One thing he was a very religious man. The family was very religious, still is very, very catholic, very religious, and he made sure his boys weren't going to be drawn into those corners. So he had them in sports very busy all the time they focused on education. Both boys got into Boston, latin, which is to public school, but it's like a private school. Historically, I am benjamin franklin. Went there laughed at a jan hawk John Hancock might have gone there. It's it's a theater to harvard, if you, if you got good grades in Boston, latin, which was a very classically you that you got classical training and you had a good shot of getting to harvard if you were near the top of your class. So that's what Andy did? He was a three season, varsity athlete he got into harvard

and he and he just worked harder than anybody else to excel like they said in what he was a boss, latin. He was on the basketball court, basketball team. He would, he would run nine miles. I mean he would just run like crazy beforehand, just to be warmed up. You know he just he just worked harder than anybody else. He oversees I think he over exercised. He was just the kind of kid who was like. I am going to succeed for my family. My family's made sacrifices for me anna and I'm going to repay them. He was very into his family, one who is harvard he would come home every weekend to spend with his younger brother, and maybe I'm sure there are few weekends. but he really love you very, very tight time and now its november nineteen. Seventy six. And the varsity football team a core. in tradition, tradition, go to the combat zone, to a strip club for for a drink. So tell us about this tradition and tell us about their travel,

to the combat zone that night. So this is the called to break up party. It's there you know that had just loss to yale in the final game in a member reality had gotten a mile concussion, so he was told not to drink and he was not much of a drink or by all accounts he wasn't much your drink or anyway, but Harvard had a tradition. They went from the harvard club. This very tony classy place I'll come over the time they have. This beautiful break up dinner, Ethel Kennedy is there to give a special award trophies or give then, speeches lectures. They have it, but you know drinking at that. Time is a team, so they have. You know little an hour, and then during dinner, the aggregating afterwards they, He have there's beer.

and it will get the reels and then the final thing is they all the vulgar where's all go to the combat zone for at last, drawing together as a team, and this has been done as this has been done for years and one of the kids one of them in football players cousin or something was a manager at the naked eye. Simply he for them to have a private room in back in the back. The back bar and the forty of them go down to the d That sounds, and in some of them go down in a harvard equipment banned and the equipment manager goes as well This is something that you know you're supposed to do it you last night again, There's a team as it was. It's crazy timing because The combat zone had just been in the news for oh, it's crime was crying ridden anyway, and that was kind of book.

Allure of it in the seventies. It was exciting. You never knew what was going to happen. It was dangerous, it was wild, it was and it was just harvard who did this. I have a friend who went plate, Boston, college, football team and he told me they did it to a lot of the colleges, It was like you know, we're gonna go down in the team as it seems that we're safe because safety in numbers and ass. If they did, they went to the how about sounding had they were to show Lee someone got up stage and danced with her stripper, in which case the browser came out, said: ok, it's time to leave now boys because it was closing time anyway and forty or so football players spit. onto the street and combat now. Just before we talk about the events that led to Andy pablo being stabbed we talk about the combat zone in an episode that people might not have Listen to about three weeks ago, the book talked about persons the combat zone

briefly tell us about this experiment plied boston social leaders to create this red light district that was coined the combat zone and why some Also, you can add another red light district court Scully square and they tried to get rid of it. They used to urban renewal money too. bulldoze it and put the the city hall there, but when they did that those businesses that whole market- need just move down. Washington street was called lower washington, where there were already some theatres and some bars with already crime. written in the sixties. Had been a murder their at one point it been, you know family entertainment, but was poor, and that's where the navy man, is to go to drink when there is a navy yard and trust us with all the military went and that's what needs to get into fights, and that's why it was called the combat zone in the sixties even before this, even before it's an official red light district, so

by the early seventies. There were thirty five such related establishments, their adult entertainment, and so there had also been a couple of There'S- been a supreme court. The? U S, supreme court decision, an estate high court decision, which made it very hard to establish something as steen and made it hard for cities to legislator. Against these businesses. You can just kick them out. So Boston came up with the idea that one of the assistance said well. What you do is you can you can keep it out, but you can restricted to one area, so they voted to restricted to a four block area in lower washington, which is kind of bounded by the downtown and in china town and is a kind of the far edge of the common and in these lists for block area, we're gonna, allow it and then

we also- and it was also contiguous to park square and that they grandfathered it. I think there was a playboy bunny club there and they said if you're there already, you can continue, but no new businesses, so this created the combat zone and all sorts of promises were made. They were going to clean it up They were going to police, it really well, they were going to add new lights and they did do a couple of things. They tried to improve the signing. They tried to work with the businesses to improve the signing, but the businesses did not want to spend the money on improvement and the city didn't have much money and they just they were neglected the neighborhoods pretty much, but they really neglected this one and there's another factor at the time. The mob is big. This is like the hay day of the market, and this is not far from the northern and pretty soon the mob loosen and its crime quadrupled from two sixties

the seventys and it's an area when you think about it. The city is really poor. At this time. Unemployment is fifteen percent in the white neighborhoods and twenty percent in the black neighborhoods less likely to black neighborhoods roads, but its very poor and the combat zone is a place where people you are either that or or go to a strip club by sex or by drugs. So everybody's covered carrying cash is easy. It's pretty much. Cash was more of a cash aside back and anyway, so pay, pocketing and muggings are big. Car are big, its and the police are utterly corrupt, and this is discovered only two weeks before these events, the police commissioner himself, who had been brought in to clean

AP corruption was very frustrated by the power of the union and the agreements that were already in place and he tried various things to clean up the area in one of one of the big problems was that the clubs had been allowed to hire or encouraged to hire cops for details A special detail, so you have a lot of cops, had cops sitting in parts getting to know the owners and drink for free, whether they were honorof duty and this net for a lot of a lot of eye. A burning find it was going on one of the clubs. It would learn come out with that. You have found a way to let their customers charge for blowjobs other credit card, and there were just they were. They were sex going on not all, but in some of the clubs in alleys in your parking lots that there would be a saturday night, you'll be sixty prostitutes standing.

Outside Charlie's, two o clock lounge and they will be able to walk area, and the people called. The t drive through with cars would just around in block, and they would be in gridlock because solicitation image. Stop you're the windows open window with solicit through the open windows. Drugs were exchanged. It was just a mass, let's get to the situation. You say just before this there is all this focus the combat zone and the corruption there and the crimes that they're so the end, the practice of police being able to work those details to make extra money, then want the police available for the crime. that they say are rampant in the combat zone. So, let's talk about one of the things that people had heard before that about a rip off in this crime written zone involving prostitutes and pimps. That's his brow.

Flee mention this little scam. Before we talk about the- and where Andy The aid of his friends tell us about this. He scanned. It came to the attention of the district attorney there. It's going on in the combat zone. So sixty four. Let me just back up just a little bit and say that the police commissioner had a secret investigation into his own police force to detail the many all this corruption it was. There was a huge report that had just been released, detail a lot of scams, and one of those scams was an evil knew about it already, but it was called they called it, not a very nice name, they called it the robber horse scheme and what it was was prostitutes, and you know, prostitutes or women dressed up like prostitutes, because some of the prompt, some of the real prostitutes complained about this. This was a scam women were dressed up as prostitutes, they were outside the hang outside the bars the men spilled into the street drunk they would fond of them and

like david soliciting, terminated, steal their walls and one of the new wrinkles. If this was This is revealed in the report. Was it now? They had male protector so they were men who were for a percentage of the wallet, would protect these women in case one of the marks one of the guys realized while it was being stolen and went out and prostitute the police college. I was lucky to interview just about a year before he died. Tell it even some of the copse round. The take somebody in the class would take protection money on this law Alex aft, and so this was very much in the news two weeks before this happened. So then, when Harvard boys spill onto the street None of them were walking past. The carnival lounge got way, we'd like to prostitutes who came up and started soliciting them. This led to one of them losing their wallet and and they went back to the harvard vans and that's where the wallet and not all of the seven suddenly were saying. Don't don't do this? This is you know that this is a scandal

If you don't don't talk to these women, but you know they were drunk some of the more drunk and they were young and are like twenty one. Twenty and one of the women they're very young they're, like sixteen one of them, is sixteen the one who stole the last sixteen years in twenty one, and it is still the ma and the runway and the three of the boys. And then I guess it's two. Fifty wars and equipment as read, chase them and there's a this leads to a larger chase. That has you know something like seven or eight but by players. Race running down boils street all they're, all white and bigger after black prostitute, tiny black prostitute, and I just want to point out that any pablo is not anywhere near this. When this is happening, he's not he's up, one of the seven he wasn't one is in a completely different cars in the back of another, quite well with a different group and was about to leave when this, so tell us how he becomes involved than why saddle.

Happens. Is this fight, so there s a chasing them boyleston street. They eventually and three black men, come out of the carnival lounge? They raced up to it. One of them kicks down one. the harvard above layers and egypt himself up, and they end up in front of the tv station, the edge of the common and its eight by then football player surrounding one black I ever saw, as and he's doing all sorts of karate kicks and there are, by all accounts, no blows, exchanged, they're, trying to they're asking him about the wallet, and he saying he does know what they're talking about with a wall. and one of them says he doesn't have a wallet Tom lincoln says he doesn't have a lot. Let's go. Just after. He says that the unease bling junk in these and other like any jumps into the friday, any steps, tom lincoln and the guy- and they say in the afternoon and equip the managers as they have not

as let's get out of here, they all run even tom, lincoln in shock and as they run down boylston street back the way they came, they all get into the harvard van except for one guy, Charlie and charlie, is he's the drunkest of them all. It's wallet that was stolen and andy by this time when he sees his teammates come pouring past him on the street. He gets out to see what happens he walks down and he sees when he gets to the alley where the where the van is parked harvard bands park, he is at the moment he sees Charlie his teammate, its other guy is one the man, the cranberry jacket, who they ve never been able to find were clearly identifying his race, but he's friendly

if the other three black guys who will eventually be charged, he is beating him against the Van Hove and is shaking and- and he jumps in to help him by the time he gets to him. Tom lincoln has actually got the one instead gotten out and gotten charlie into the into the van and it's just Andy. Popolo and ed were sores and they'd get into a fistfight and they are fighting a random, they kind of it all counts. All of this takes about five minutes there. Fighting around then coupled with football players, get out to try to help and dared held it. Nice might buy, young eastern man, who then just over edward sources back instead andy in the gut another football player stock coolidge, was not a part of the original group comes in. He sees Andy, he picked him up. Nieces. Are you all right? He says yes, he said let's get

I hear and he's point him away when we uneasily and their retreat comes and stabs anti another time. This time he thrust the knife into his gotten up into his heart. Sell the three defendants are edward sorrows who isn't real in this fight Leon easterly, who does the stabbing and then richard Alan who really by all accounts? Never touch is anybody but he was involved. He wasn't involved is the answer from the cargo lounge he's off of me on east rollings, half brother and was was about locations and he came down from the empty aid to the area only sets story so the three of them, because there had been so much about the combat zone because of that report, the actually the area,

has been better placed than it usually was a copter there within instance like they are there. They realized there's no time for an ambulance. They take Andy to task just like around the block and they get him there and underfoot and it's his blood out and technically debt on arrival when he arrives with their able to restart his heart in and work on him all night in surgery. Lay Tom lincoln has taken to a different hospitals, I realise that can wait for an ambulance for him and Three men are arrested at the scene. Leon easterly actually did the stabbing ever saw as who started the fight and was involved in this fight, and

Richard Allen, who is there- and you know he was- he- was a hustler in the combat zone and green my sources. He really did work for his prostitutes, but he didn't do anything in that fight, so they arrested and they're taken immediately they're charged with attempted murder and then Andy is in a coma at first. It looks like he's gonna survive so and and that these police, who are smart enough, I have to wait for the ambulance, these district, one, a police who had just been reviled for their corruption because they are considered the most corrupt in the city, now they're heroes and there's press conferences to that effect the next morning and when it looks like Andy's gonna live, but then he starts having seizures and it becomes clear he's never going to wake up, but it takes a month. Of nonstop headlines about first the miracle and then his his his medical condition is monitored when danny and Can we go that night to the hospital

when they leave in the morning. There are ready television trucks in the street press is surrounding them. This is a big story. Three hundred newspapers across more than three hundred newspapers across the nation will cover it and will follow it. There's tv and press, it's a big deal for a couple of reasons, a big story for a couple of reasons. One of the reasons is it's harvard anything about harvard gets news and when Boston trot ditches. Social experiment of the combat zone. It was very much to the rest of the nation. It was seen crazy because Boston was the puritanical city known for up to that point. Four billion everything from Walt whitman, leave a grass to I'm curious level, let yellow and then there. This is their solution to almost legislator. So there

Breast of the nation is very interested in cause. They are a lot of cities of dealing with this problem and it's like see. We told you this was the wrong way to go. This is a big mistake, so it's a big story and its covered and there's a third reason boss and is also in the press were, is passing. This is nineteen. Seventy six, the photo of of the trust, our kids stabbing a black businessman appears to be, but they're not real, photo without the flag with the. U s, flag, had gone away in the world. I think, eventually, after you won a pulitzer that year, it's called the soiling of old glory. Boston at this point is in the middle of pretty much almost a race war. going on about blessing. I need the national guard is involved, schools are shot. There's violence in the street, Boston watching the news that uses as an opportunity to stop the here from these messages you talk there the charges that were were stem from disturbing of Andy and now

because of his deteriorated status, in the hospital he was on life support and they did a brain analysis, a brain scan and it was a flat mine. So Andrew senior was reluctant to take em off. He thought prayers might work. To say the sun, but needless to say it didn't and he died and so the the narrative and the tone and the stories change in the media. Don't they yet well. The stories so so the story is very much about the combat zone right so right and he after he gets attack. They lied the city, it's like it's like a tipping point to combat, It's been a problem for years is controversial and the nation is controversial in Boston. Crime has quadrupled when this happens and remember. Boston is a college town and this is the baby boom. So a lot of families late to the story. Your kids gonna have the combat zone and they get the kids, get sat and murdered

the combat zone, raymond flynn, former ambassador and will be you'll, be Boston's. Next mayor the day after he had. He also had one behind in a professional basketball player and he had coached young kids and he had coached Andy the day after this happens, he is in the combat zone taking petitions to close it down entirely. So if it's flooded with I was doing stories loaded with, so many police prostitutes are moving out there. In the other neighborhoods, this is causing problems. There is actually a prostitute union, which is saying me don't condone down this. You know these are rip offs, artists, there's press and then, at the same time the district attorney and the chief of police come out and say the combat zone is a failed experiment. We have to shut it down, they start process

shooting the clubs for all sorts of violations. There had been a secret investigation of the district attorney's office into the corruption and they start revealing their results. So every day there are headlines about another club being closed for violations about what was being new to fix and shut down the combat zone. So the trial is very much about the cant. The first trial is very much about the combat zone and what a failure it was- and you know this is what happens when you? Let things get out of hand? Three black men, you know gang up and stab a white harvard plant and Andy popolo in very sympathetic victim he's here, he's worked hard to get. Where was he was beloved by all and interestingly, in this era of intense racism, he has now, both at boston, latin is high school and an end at harvard? even though the one whitehead who on the team, made friends with all the black it he's got, you ve got a lot of black rents, which was

the usual in this era and the fire there is very sympathetic he's a classy guy he's a kind man, and this shows and all Did he? Sympathy is with the popular family who have endured this terrible tragedy in which is a tear we'll tragedy, let's get to something that ends up. in vitally important, and that is the the district attorney talks about charging all of these three defendants with the same murder tell us about this concept: the joint enterprise and end the idea that Leon easterly was far more culpable, but despite that spite the evidence of that the took attorney still the same, to proceed with first degree, murder charges against all three in this theory of joint enterprise. Can you explain? Yes, it joint enterprise, orson icing on joint venture is like a felony martyr rule. It's the basic concept is the guy who drives a beginning,

the car for the bank robbery, if the other guy goes in during stick up and kill. Somebody he's equally responsible for the murder, so that's the basic theory that there all in this together and so and then the prosecutor is using joint venture into ways. He saying they were all up at that and he s station, and they saw that Leon. Easterly wielded his knife right, he said Somebody had a night basically brought a knife to a this. By an he had it and he'd been improved, you would use it once those harbour football players turned around and rain. I were in retreat and Leon. Easterling followed. The other two came with him: they became conspirators or in this theory right. So that's one way he was using them he's. Also saying there is a bigger conspiracy here, because all three men were working. They came out to protect the

a prostitute because they were going to get a cut of the wallet. So this is their gig. They are doing it. They committed murder in it they're all in it together. That was the basic concept now The attorneys say this is crazy, because this is basically a street fight, but these are the two different ways of looking at the same thing and the prosecutor. I think the prosecutor had to be under incredible pressure because his boss, Eric Berne, hated the combat zone, He had wanted to use a very uptight guy and he hated the combat zone for years. He knew and he knew more about the contact zone than anybody else, because he had his lawyers working on a secret vessel. Asian into the mud infiltration of it. So I think the prosecutor, tumblr he had to be under pressure to basically overpriced. You is, I think, issue at this trial as well, because it doesn't become evident, but also they have to see the jury, and so there are at that time parameter

we challenges allowed. The judge can make some jury. three challenges, but also the attorneys at sixteen peremptory challenges themselves, not to go back to what happened in that jury selection, but tell us a little bit about the peremptory challenges and what some people legal experts thought this as problematic issue. So when you re you're seating, a jury wide year, the judge will ask about questions, saying you how much in this case it was very much How much publicity have you read, because there is still much publicity I can even be able to judge fairly have you ready, formed an opinion and also have indeed because Boston was so racially contentious at the time? How do you feel about black defenders. Can you can you be fair to them issue of race? Aside and and interestingly enough, a lot of people said no, I really can't they would just

I went up to the racism or they want to get out a jury duty either way out. The jury is Paul farm ever in chelsea, which are smaller, the suburbs button. mostly from the very neighborhoods in Boston, which were being at that time, feeling like their rights, were violated by ordered Worse passing so as Henry owen, the attorney for Richard Allen said they were in no mood to consider the rights of black defendants. They were very much feeling put upon by this forced busing plan, which was the judge garrity had to do it because the Boston school committee had blown him off for so long, but it was very punitive, it was really hard. It was thinking about sending your five year old off to a completely different neighborhood that you think is crime, ridden stab your own neighborhood, I mean people were. Angry, and this is the environment in which the jury is being selected, and at that time the way worked was when you suffer enjoy. You had a served,

Matthew back all, and so what happened was basically gave you an exemption from it If you made a lot of mine in here, you were teacher or, exemptions and the only people who want sound or you will union people, because their contracts paid them for jury duty very Well, you were working and the very young man start working it. So the jury selection was tough. It was tat, it was not the best pool, jury, poor start off with, and then the judge. can get rid of people and then, but what's the judge clears the jura? Both sides have an opportunity to get rid of a journey without saying why using apparent the challenge. Now that those promptly counter still exist today and the the climb, the more both sides yeah, so in this instance, I think each good defense had sixteen each because there were three different attorneys and then the prosecutor had a multiple that he have three times that and they don't have to give a reason they could just say. No, I don't like it

and the way it worked in the nation, Boston is not alone is everywhere. You know if you'd, like so and he is an italian victim, so the defence issues their prosecution. To get rid of everybody with an italian lesson, if it was a woman, not one who was a man charged with rape, they would use them to get rid of every woman on a juror. It is an routinely this prosecutor, Tom Monday. If there are three black defendants and a white victim, he would get rid of all as many black potential jurors as he wanted without having to say why this is the way business was done in boston across a nation Let's get back to the trial and again we see The jury is seated and despite that obviously the complexion of that jury is mostly white. Yes, the prosecutor uses promptly challenges to get rid of. It was eleven out of twelve potential. You're laughing savage europe will derive any glass injury, but to start off with

so I think it's eleven or twelve or twelve and thirteen potential watchers. He strikes them without giving. to be fair, though the judge- and this is turning henry owens complains later- and an obviously during the trial as well- that judgment Dismissing many of the objections and his initial motion to separate the trial, he doesn't think Much of judge Roy any thinks he's. A racist, yes is known as the hanging judges well very hard. At the same time this trial prosecutor Monday says he has really does have six eye witnesses. The result inconsistency in some of their testimony body has six eye witnesses that back up the story that these three men were involved and that's what he asked approved that these three men were involved in the same commission of this crime which lead to stabbing and all three are the same culpability it in all guilty what happens at the verdict of these three men,

he said this is normally would be if there is a very complex case, because there is a laudable charges and the concept of joint venture and joint enterprise, is you note you? Normally heart am if their convicted there did the best and his prison in life, with no possibility of parole. So this is, you know it's it's com is a complex case and the jury, the jury. It deliberates, but Monday had a very strong case. It yeah he had more than he had six from harvard, but yet people who weren't related to harvard on the street, who are also testify eye witnesses to the- is part of it and he also had the man I call evidence. The medical evidence was very damning, so he had very strong evidence and- and it was a complex case, but the jury is so it's like a thursday and they're dismissed, as I think twelve for launching begin deliberating of one day

they're sequestered they deliberate to like five or six clock the next morning. They delivery twenty minutes and they have a verdict and the verdict is guilty. Kids oftener and you have that two of them are also Leon sterling and edward sores are also convicted of The ten years for us all, battery consecutive to be running consecutively. as an enemy to stabbings. Remember areas, one murder, but they are also prosecutor, stabbing tom, lincoln yes so, and there was a little scuffle there's like a little fight before him, where I think edward sores kicks one of them and he also gets charged with assault and battery with a shod foot. I mean there are alot of which lottery charges and they all get convicted I'll. Look, let's talk about the media response, but also that wallace sherwood attorney and an reopens file their appeals immediately. What is the tone? What is

the tone of the media in its coverage of the verdict of the trial. So up until this point, the media coverage of the problem is very sympathetic. It's very sympathetic to the problem. At the moment this verdict comes out, it's called harsh harsh justice and it all becomes about the city's racism and the racism of the harshness of this two three lack is also a trial. Shortly after shortly, two months after there's another murder trial in the state of a black man, young black team ryan, nelson eighteen years old and there's a there's, a fight that breaks out with stirring snow storm a white guys and abandoned ryan into his black friends and the cars spin out and they get pissed by and by nelson gets round murdered. With her, be by attire iron and stabbed with a broken bottle and they arrest wendy,

Do the rest. There is no joint venture justin A former marie in a nineteen year old is charged he's only charged with manslaughter another jury acquits so, This is a very sharp contrast when the victim is black and the Fail are white, look what happens when the victim is white and then the sale of your black. With with her. Surrender a couple cases like this, which and the family couple of whom he had nothing to do with any of this right right animals all of a sudden andy's named its associated with racism, and harry islands, who is the attorney for rigid? Alan is citys more prominent black attorney and it will be for many years and he has watched he for years. He watched

the Monday strike. All the black jurors wanted from the from the jury pool and he he was ready for him and he starts in the selection of this jury. He is on the record for objecting, or almost every time Tom Monte strikes a juror, so he is setting up a record for an appeal. They also appeal. You know saying that look, there's not enough evidence to prove joint venture. This is crazy, and so that's the appeal and a lot of famous defense, attorneys in Boston will say: whoa. This is crazy. You know this is a spontaneous street brought. You can't use jump, joint venture and spontaneous strip raw, and they did the prosecutors who say what you can when you have all sorts of documents that suggested richard on is a prepaid protecting the combat zone. His brow, leon works for it with an eye on this, and we are doing- is a friend of yours so that those are basically the to camp here here, but this is an opportunity to stop for these messages.

Now you say that danny we haven't talked about, but danny so close to his brother. Andy there are incidents. There is an incident in court where he. It. He challenges the defendants in court and says some the spirit things he's hall. The court, but in his mind he suffering from a sort of post, traumatic dress disorder. In terms of he thinks tat, he should have done something he has some guilt, that he wasn't there that night, because he was invited to join, brother that night, but he didn't wanna go along. He thought. Maybe his brother would just like the private time without taking care of his younger brother, which was done, It's a danny had these feelings of duty and also maybe the idea of the italian vendetta concept, but with the trial and with the verdicts somebody, feelings had subsided. Dan danny was a little bit better. I guess with the verdicts, however,

one day. You chronicle that the family is sitting around in jamaica, plain and it nineteen, seventy nine in march and the television set his arm and there's a familiar sound on that broadcast. It includes their name and they pay attention. Tell us about this credible moment where they catch this landmark decision on television. Well, I think it's back up. I think any family, any family of a murder victims. All they want is the maximum justice for their loved one which says they shouldn't this murder never should happen, and if there had been capital punishment nest she sits on shore. They would have one capital punishment. The prosecutor tells them for justice to be serve. All three of these dependence have to go away for life, so this to them becomes the justice there. Some scissors where's appealed their worried right. They had gotten justice with a bit. Will it be taken away from them and one day there still danny

his his mother and they're listening to the gv, and they hear it's been reversed that the high court's actually says- and this is what makes it even harder. The decision by the high court says there's enough proof. There is proof here that they were working together. Joint joint venture to go for murder you'd be put away from her in the first degree, but because of the way the jury was selected, we are going to overturn this and it has to be retried and to the family that sounds like they know. He's guilty is getting off on a technicality. That's a very hard decision for a family to stomach, because it is so painful to go through a dino, it's so painful for the family to go through a murder trial to hear all the different things all the violence that was done their loved one of the points where, maybe you don't things had gone differently when it happened? It's just extremely painful and this hysteria that you're gonna have to go through it all. brilliant, and the thing is too, with these parameter. The challenges and talking

Now the story is framed as you couldn't get a proper conviction, with this all white jury in these cases where with black defendants, so it talks about the composition, changing that these prompted peremptory challenges and am having a jury more representative of the defendants, but it had nothing to do with Andy and his attitude towards race or anything else that had to do with the racial divide in boston and story becomes. He becomes a symbol of this ratio. the wide, whereas it was simple case of Andy, trying to help out his friends in a situation. Did he deemed quickly for them to needs assistance The simple is that right is as simple as that and and combat sound was funny because, where the whole city was divided. New divided not just by raise like there was italian section and irish neighborhoods.

But you have nobody mingled and in one place where people mingle replies would sit. Whites in the bar was the combat zone where a black couple live in one of the apartments overhead and not get rocks through the window, so this had nothing to do with the neighborhoods had nothing to do passing, but it had a little to do with the city's raises. the men at the way. You know the way. During the day was selected in their concept. It three black men had to go to jail for the rest of their lives. So henry how in the public prosecutor would then defence attorney? Who will represent richard answered where it should have gone down was Leon is It had been murdered. Shipping connected merlin, first degree- edward sars- maybe you can get, and for assault battery or assisting and his client. Richard Allen he had gone off scot free because he wasn't involved really, except for mostly mostly the quoted him as him, telling the horror

for football players to go home they're out of their league just get in the car and go home. You don't know what you're doing now. The idea that Henry Owens expresses that this is what should, and I have to tend to agree, not necessary they being attorney and who cares what my opinion is, but it looks like to me that it was an over reach in trying to try all these people for the same crime. But that's not what the court said they, a new trial because of these challenges now I guess even the family, danny and His mother, the entire family, believes that justice still will be done with this new trial right because there's enough evidence to convict him a second time, that's what the prosecutor thinks and that's what they believe. I do want to point out that this trial is the case that changes all that they appear. The changes the way during the and ass she sits.

It was a similar case in california, but a monk before that made the same conclusion. It will take eight years for the rest of the nation to catch up and and change the way juries are chosen, but this is the case that really, This is the case it's used by the supreme court. It called the soares decision that will be used. To write me. Jerry selection, there thou seeming resolution of the injustice that they say that occurred because of the the jury, selection and composition, and you say that you ve changed those laws. As regarding those challenges, as a result, this appeal, but to the horror of the popolo family. What happens in this court case? So it's seventy seven sewage too, who enter a half years later, where you know it's difficult that you know many people leave that the defense has an advantage in the second trial anyway, because they've gone through all the transcripts they looked for every.

What inconsistency awesome that two and a half year period, things have changed in Boston, for wanting passing, is lots of violence is out of the schools. It's in the neighborhoods, but it's out of school. So it's out of the national headlines. Some of the city has become sick of it. The rest of the residents have become so eventually voted out the anti pursing city councillors and there been a bunch of light gloved as a study that it shows that systematically landscape harsher criminals and worse facilities for the same crime, there's couples this is the come out where really heinous crimes against blacks have gone. You'll juries have acquitted that the whites and then three three weeks if he has two or three weeks, before the second trial. There is another murder of a darrow Williams at fifteen year old black kid whose playing football

many charlestown field jobs in his great irish neighborhood you get shot through the back of his neck by three waiting. it's not a rooftop later they said it was an accident, there's some debate whether they can actually hit their targets if they want to do with twenty one, but when the while goes on. This is the moment in Boston, where violence against glasses finally gone too far. Even the whites and charlestown in white and trousers, very tight neighbourhood help the cops round up this aspects, which is unheard of within a loyalty department. This is it comes. It happens right before them, How is visiting boston so there's placards everywhere is a huge racist stain on a city of the city, and it happens. It's like whites of real, like it's. It's everyone is appalled, and so this is very much in the news and very much influence and second trial for the family it means they have got to you. Gotta go he's all over again and they worry particular nothing much and

but but danny his mother, a really worried that do not gonna get justice, but they worry there. Just worry. And you know- maybe not all of them will get murder in the first degree and that's as far as they think it's the worst, that's their worst case scenario, but just trial was the first time the new rules for jury selection. The stories decision, We implemented an now. happens is both sides. Both the defensive, we turn every time they strike somebody, it's a number saying. So if you strike one black you're, ok, I've used Two will. Why are you striking if you start to see a pattern? Other other side takes note of that is submitted to the judge and that's ground for an appeal, so this jury won't end up being, I think three blacks on it. Three blocks out of twelve, and so it's where the first jury was one: it's not that the first year he does have one black on on the juror on it's, not all white. There is a black man and he's the foreman the first. The second jury has, I think, three blacks and one one of the alternates is blacks as well

and they will come to a very different decision. Yes, they do come to very different decision, but also that the fence, Has a distinct advantage, having gone through that first trial and at least that's some observers, believe will also they have much better representation either. This has been in the news, the guns they got norman's alpine. Who is really quite star events attorney there rio once again, an undue who is a young attorney who had worked why it anywhere for he will go on to make a big names himself by either. He said he said he spent a year from the moment. He knew he had a chance. He spent a year preparing for this case. The second case, the first trial with was tried in march, like less than three months after the he die so that the defence really had no time to prepare this. Now, this verdict is, as you alluded to very, very, very different, and instead of degree murder for all three

its manslaughter for Leon. Easterly. but the judge says he's gonna, give him the max and he was given. Eighteen to twenty In reality he was able to apply for parole in twelve years. Yeah yeah yeah. He gets off any reserve three. Could you waiting for the trial and the appeal? So is used, resign, observe eight years devastating and for the pablo family. With this decision they are absolutely devastating and it has a terrible impact on them. so do we have to remember is eighteen nineteen. When this happens. When his first happens, and I've learned a lot about murder as murder, victims, families and the impact on a teenage brain of knowing someone or witnessing a murder is almost impossible not to have ptsd witches, explains intercity violence. Why?

and where does that cycle of violence, because these kids in the inner city, see their friends murdered on the street and very natural response is to is to want revenge is to just obsess over the idea of revenge. yes, you write that things have changed in boston of things are changing in Boston because of this trial, but things have changed in Boston because they the change, and so so many events created this up I stand it wanted the citizen tree demanded changes, yeah yeah well in terms of criminal justice. Yes, there were several trials which criminal justice in a criminal justice in the nation was not great from any kind of minority. With these, these peremptory challenge and Boston you have most of you have a community were, which is mostly why when the jury poor comes down? It's gonna, be mostly why so? It

and he hardly anything. It's going to be hard to get representation of, already anyway, even before they start using the peremptory challenges? So they did change. The jury pools are assemble because they were very white because they were based on voter registration. At that point, blacks did not do not registered a vote in the same number his whites and so after the change to a jury pulls are selected and sure as decision and then there were a couple decisions so in massachusetts which, despite the city's representation for being racist, massachusetts and California, were considered by the resignation is after this course, because they were the most forward, thinking in the most progressive, so Massachusetts really for other they kept refining the source decision, so doesnt guarantee that you have no black is ever struck just because his black, but it makes it a lot harder for each side to get away with that, and so this will lead to them

nationwide. Batson decision, the supreme court in eight years later will will say yeah. We can't do this nationally, and so Who is the bats indecision which makes it rested a nation have to fall into line, but it's not implemented or refined the same way. The source decision is so the prosecutors ways around it. People still find wait. Weren't there are more loopholes in that than there are in the source. Decision is just another. But better before I let you go and we wrap up. I wanted to talk, about the summit the things that were unto honour andy's memory. There was a couple tournaments in his name but, more importantly, a part that was rename and he also between the first and the second trial, did the community territory scholarships and honours at harvard in Boston, latin, but italian community gets together in this form of a petition

and to rename the playground where he grew up doing sports, which is beautiful park right on the waterfront as north end, and if your listeners, that is it is it check it. it's on commercial street is a beautiful park and you'll you'll find a a bronze memorial to Andy Popolo and a beautiful poem that was written about him, that's in his name, so that is the last thing: recognition of this young life that really should you know, it was snuffed out way too early. Yes, I want to thank you very much, jan brogan, for coming on and talking about the combat zone, murder, race and boston struggle for justice. For those that might want to take a look at your work. Do you have a site or do any social media tell us about the money. I do so w w w jam broken dot com net- I think, jan under foreign, the unbroken o seven on facebook, and I also twitter jam broken, but I'm most active, I think, on facebook instagram you have, the book is available in most of you know, most dependable.

Stores and on amazon and directly from the publisher, you must press that's great. I want, and I want to thank you for inviting me, I'm gonna. Let me talk about my favorite. like this, but thank you very much for coming on and talking about the combat zone, murder, race and boston struggle for justice with jammed Thank you so much down for this interview, and you have a great evening. Did you do good night