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I propose the Lentol soup? sorry I'll call you back progressive casualty, insurance company, affiliates discounts not available in all states, are situations. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder. With your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, it was an unbelievable crime, hideous unexpected, baffling

crime destined to become the most notorious and obsessive cold case in Cincinnati. History on that Long ago day in September, on the cusp of autumn, we were horrified by the blue and brick a murder headlines. Jerry is The wife Linda and their young daughter, Debbie were found, stabbed to death in their home in the city's each neighborhood striking between the fourth and fifth slangs of the. Since. Matty strangler in one thousand nine hundred and sixty six, the brick a killer the city already on edge into an abyss. I have so tree later. The brick of mystery lingers in cobwebs and survives on whispers enter so and crime writer Jt Townsend, author of local best seller, Queen City gothic. JT was given unprecedented access to the case file laden information that never saw the light of print before evidence that might

dominate the relentless rumors that police screwed up the crime scene or covered up for the suspect. Fifty years later, true crime, detective Jt Townsend's answers whodunit and renders final verdict as an arm chair, detective stocking a mystery killer, town and it's not shackled by presumption of innocence or reasonable. Doubt all evidence is admissible in this being excavation Townsend, jettisons, the employee double until we arrive at the probable truth, towns and finally addresses the question who killed the Braca FAM book. We're featuring a seething is summer's, almost gone. The brick Bricca family murders the most notorious cold case in Cincinnati history. With my special guest journalist and author Jt Townsend. Welcome back to the we're going to. Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Jt Townsend Dan. It's a good to be back with you

Thank you. It's always a pleasure. Let's get to write as you write in the book, your personal connection to, You say you were if I'm not correct thirteen Sixty six and a c real killer was on the loose. Tell us a bit about what that meant to you when your memory of that tell us a little bit as you writing a book about what you were doing when for thirteen, and this happened yeah actually, I was- was twelve about nine months, I was go going into seventh grade and play Dan. The fear have junior high, you know being in with all these for kids and I gotten taller over the summer role, so we're looking interesting and we had a serial killer on the loose he killed for victims, and I was,

I'm in school. More than a couple of weeks under this beautiful family, the brick's or murdered in their home, and obviously not, by the Cincinnati strangler. So we have a completely separate crime, and I think if, if you read my introduction, I had a horrific nightmare about this crime I'm a couple nights after it happened that the brick Miller had got in our house and was killing my family, and it was just extremely memorable and I set it in the book. I was almost thirteen Dan and I the bed this nightmare were so horrific, thus began fifty two year obsession of mine to solve this case. You talk about November, two thousand and fourteen being a very significant date. Tell us what happened in November, two thousand and fourteen that chain.

Your situation regarding this case well at the book, the book summer's, almost gone, does not exist without my access to the case file that was today I sat down with Hamilton County Sheriff's department too cold officers and myself and Dan. Where was the file crime scene? Photos more photos, interviews, evidence all sitting there and I've been waiting. Oh, I guess what forty forty eight years at that point to see this information and suddenly there it is Ann was astounding. I looked at the crime scene, photos I'd, envisioned this crime. In my mind, it was nothing like I thought it was and it basically changed. My theory of the crime and pretty,

Much spawn this book. You talk about the crime itself September 27th, one thousand nine hundred and sixty six when the bodies were discovered but you talk about the family itself, Jerry, Linda and young child Debbie so tell us a little bit about Jerry and Lynn. And their life. The brick of family life tell us a little bit about their background and their life together. Well they were both. Jerry was raised in San Francisco, London, Chicago of both upper middle class families. I met while she was an airline stewardess for American Airlines out of Seattle, and They started dating and Linda, got pregnant, almost

media tly, and they had a rather hurried marriage in November of one thousand nine hundred and sixty one they'd, only known each other six months, so a Linda was only eighteen at the time Jerry was twenty three, so rough start for young couple, Debbie was born beautiful child jerry. I think it's been described as kind of a workaholic. Was very career. Oriented job oriented focused on Work Linda, was stunningly beautiful and I got family photos from the family of her in the book that were never published. One of the problems with the book originally well. I don't have any good photos of her. Just newspaper photos and said my head photos that showed just how stunningly attractive she was and the fact that she was an Ex airline stewardess, very beautiful

workaholic, husband, started the rumors about this case, but just a tip. Local kind of middle class family in Cincinnati living in a nice neighborhood Ann. Suddenly all three of them were murdered. Why that's the question. Everybody in Cincinnati in the Westside's been asking for fifty two years. You know I have all those neat. Hello GT, yes, we may work on a farm yeah. We were right off, so let's go back and let's talk about hello, Gerry and Linda and Debbie a little bit about their back

ground. Okay, we didn't, we didn't get any of that before. I guess we got just an introduction to them. Just a little bit about just about their living arrangements and then you said they wound up passed away. What I was going to ask you as well about the brick of family. You write in this book at the same time about the Cincinnati strangler. Yes, why is this important. To include the Cincinnati strangler. At the same time that you have this parallel investigation into Rick a murder mystery. Well, I think it uhm obvious the distance at least wrangler in the brick murders were concurrent. They happen, obviously both one thousand nine hundred and sixty six the city was already on edge from for women being killed by the strangler when the br

this were killed and if the brick is are the most notorious called Cincinnati history, then the fifth Cincinnati strangler victim Alice, HAWK Haeussler, who was murdered Two weeks after the brick is that's the second most notorious cold case in Cincinnati history. She was very prompt. Victim wife of a chief of surgery at a major hospital mother nine. So we have this beautiful family murdered in late September. Sixteen six and two weeks later, this society, matron fifty one years old, is struck down on her own driveway at midnight by the Cincinnati strangler. So it's difficult to separate the strangler and the brick murders. The combination of the brick is being killed in Alice Hog, counselor, really, law launch the largest law enforcement mobilization in city history. At that time you talk about the misconception to of.

The profile that all serial killers are white, and in this case here we see so many reports of attacks by black males tell us why this is important in this story? Well again, I think there is a misconception two of them actually but Serial killers are invariably white males and that they never stop killing in both those assumptions are false. Why serial killers Kerr, roughly biggest the same percentage of black people in the population, about twelve to thirteen percent of serial killers or black brother than Wayne Williams, the Atlanta child killer, allegedly there's not a lot of publicity, publicity about them. But you know with Cincinnati it's the 60s Cincinnati is extremely conservative. Dan still is, and

got the Vietnam WAR going on their race riots. The backdrop at the 60s. It's got some some got kind of befuddled. You know him you know, radical, free love movements, things like that, and suddenly we have a allegedly black serial killer, killing. Elderly white mothers and. Really the fertilizer just hit the fan with this and it Exacerbated racial tension extensively Cincinnati Black then were rounded up and pulled into lineups without any due process. Civil rights groups assailed this, but the fear was so palpable. In the end, no one really cared anyone's rights were being violated, so racial tension in Cincinnati during the reign of the strangler was Certainly a big part of the story:

mysterious black man, killing elderly white women and then breaker case lands right on top of this beautiful, so bourbon family stabbed to death in phone home. I'm, really a little Damn that a national crime show has yet to do a story on this, and my age are working on just that think what Cincinnati went through in nineteen. Sixty six true crime level was profound and it would be certainly not a stretch to say that the Cincinnati lost its innocence in nineteen sixty six. What mark between say the world, coming to an end? I move to Cincinnati and have ten more years to live, 'cause, nothing it take so long for things to get to Cincinnati, but you know this is something crimes were like something that would happen in New York or Chicago or LA

but it was Cincinnati. You know how could it happen here? Let's talk about the crime itself, what police. Find once they are alerted to this and how police are alerted to the brick of family and something amiss. So you talk about the neighbors their reaction, and their response tell us about that and how they find out, but and again, what are the characteristics about the murder that seemed to baffle police from the onset. So they were rum tonight, September, 25th or rainy Sunday night. Not a lot of people are out the World Television premiere of Bridge on River Kwai. At the time, sixty million people tuned in the largest ever watch a movie on tv at the time, a picking out his garbage cans at nine hundred pm by a neighbor. That's the la

time anyone saw any of the family of Jerry did make a flight the next morning for his business trip all day Monday newspaper sat out, garbage can sat out, neighbors kind of wondered, but this from the family might be out of town until Tuesday night. The 27th at some alarm neighbors did investigate again the garbage cans still out. There's three newspapers on the sidewalk in front of the house. They can hear the families, dogs barking inside and neighbors lane in the front door, which is unlocked and are assaulted by the unmistakable stench of dead bodies in the brick, a house and uh about one thousand and forty five on that Tuesday night and that's when the that's. When the call went out, And you you'd mention what what were the circumstances of this crime that baffled investigating officers

obviously there were hamstrung immediately from the get go, the first forty eight it's gone. You know right, nobody is aware, from Sunday night to Tuesday night that these people have been murdered. You know witness memories, to recede into the rearview mirror after forty eight hours I mean how many can you remember what you had for for dinner? I'm going to go down or who you saw near your house, it's tough, hamstrung the investigation if the bodies had been discovered the night of the murder murders We probably got a different situation, so they got really late start. There was afflicting jurisdictions. There was four different police jurisdiction, at this crime scene and the crime scene was unsecured for the first two hours, which it's not that unusual for a nineteen. Sixty six crime scene

no sign in log? There's no hazmat suits hazmat, gloves, there's no there's no active trained in evidence collection. These detectives have to do everything themselves. And crime scene was unsecured. The rumors immediately started. This was a screw up but I don't think it was. I can expand talkable delight yes, well, there's all some features of the. I talked about the characteristics that they found. No struggle from the terms and also no forced entry that they could see right, there are a couple of the other circumstances that seemed again God or they they noted, and then you can again again. We talk about what's interesting as well as that no struggle, but Jerry. If you could describe Jerry, it sure more unusual that he would not have fought well, I think,

even even with the forty eight hour, delay of disk every day and I think the leading Vestigator her Vogel. Once he arrived and shut down the crime scene. He made a couple very correct assumptions. I think almost immediately one being that the brick is do the killer or killers, and we see a lot of signs there of the. Family being lulled into a sense of security, there is no forced entry, There is no sign of a struggle. There are no defensive stab wounds, two dogs known to be aggressive Barker's, especially when strange men, strangely quiet, not only the night of the murders, but for days afterwards known, neighbors hear anything in there, houses on either side and very close, very close twenty feet. Maybe

you know no sign of a struggle and I think the police in a mod profiling sense they determined. This was a personal cause, homicide that the killers knew the victims that one killer or both were emotionally entangled with one of the victims and the immediate speculation was that Linda Braca was the target. And there was an immediate controversy at the crime scene, had she'd been raped, an the corner in the lead investigator went back and forth on this now I've seen the crime scene photos her breasts were exposed and she was wearing a skimpy negligee, but it appeared to be because she had been thrown off the bed after being stabbed in body was thrown on top of juries, her panties were in place eventually,

the police determined she had not been raped. But that she had had recent intercourse possibly the day. For her murder, but I think the police work correct. This was not a burglary gone wrong. This is not a roving serial killer or maniac. This was not a professional hit. This was not a cult. This was someone emotionally involved with the victims. So in that aspect I think they'd first off in the right direction with their investigation. You talk about the right about that. They speak to a neighbor Anna who, ends up being a babysitter for Linda and from that they get a lot about the

in between Jerry and Linda, possibly at least from that event. Tell us about that event and what it tells police an indicates. The police. Well, I'm sure they didn't call it victimology, then, in sixty six, but We're trying to get to know this family better than the only new themselves, a lot of information from Linda sat. The primary babysitter the family better than any non relative. Having spent so much time baby sitting there, it would be it would. The incorrect to suggest this couple had a happy marriage they'd had a trial separation in March of that year, There was a dispute about Linda, not wanting to have another child. She was search. Tell me an animal lover and was interested

inquiring more pets, but not more children. This was at odds with what Jerry wanted uh. This was a troubled marriage They only knew each other five months. Before they were married and she was pregnant for a couple of those so kind of a rocky start and What I don't want to blame any victims here, but I found it interesting. I interviewed three men who were inside the crime scene after the discovery and the speculation about Linda Braca having an affair started as they were looking at the dead bodies almost immediately. Actually, immediately speculation was that the motive for this murder was an adulterous affair that took a wrong turn into rage. We talked about that neighbor and that neighbor that was baby.

Sitting. She mentioned that there was a confrontation where Linda was supposed to be back from work and she was working Yes, only one day at this veterinarians Clinic Ann She was supposed to be home around nine Jerry, went to some event and came home late himself and still found that his wife hadn't returned home. Care of their child. You mentioned that this affair was was a rumor. Let's talk about the subject of that rumor Doctor Fred line. Yeah mate. Let me people basis to that chapters. Four and five of my book. I set up a timeline in chapter four of the week, leading up to the murders chapter. Five is murder day- and this is piecing together into narrative form. All the interviews and information. All the witness statements Linda, worked. She when

I work at the Glen way: Animal Hospital on Monday September 19th she been bug the head vet there about a job? She ended working only three days that week Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, and the family was murdered. That sunday- and the obvious first question for me, is if Linda Bricker does not go to work at that clinic. Is the family? In fact, murdered? the only break from routine. Was taking that job at that clinic so. The Wednesday night I thought was a pivotal night. Jerry's at a bachelor party indicates he needs to go home. He needs to be home when his wife gets home from work. He Home at nine o'clock, she doesn't, he waits.

Those next door. His daughter is asleep, being babysat by a neighbor He seems upset he's wondering where Linda is suddenly at one thousand and thirty an hour and a half late. She shows up with whiskey on her breath. Located she had a drink with Doctor Fred Leininger, her boss at the clinic, Jerry became somewhat enraged, made a threat, I'm us play Dan. It's only hearsay that he made that threat, because I don't want that. Actually in the case file, but I've got pretty good Nascar corroboration, but he didn't make the directly, and eventually he took his wife and child home sitting on Thursday morning, the normally reserved Jerry who never talked about his family life unless put it to his boss about said he was about what was going on with Linda her being drunk being late

her association with this veterinarian. This is Thursday morning in this guy's, stepping totally out of character venting to his boss about what happened the night before as I say in the book that Wednesday night the seeds of murder are shown, I don't what went on between Linden, Dr Fred Lining, or that night. But I can say this: if you look at any murder victim Dan and today we look at who called him on the cell phone, you know who were they? Who are they on social media with? But back then it was basically about were they in each other's company and Linda for Fred Leininger Monday Wednesday. She tried to get in touch with him. Third day we're leaving an emergency call on his answering service. She was seen with him Friday and Saturday and some out of the way, places and she's more

on Sunday. So with all the suspects in the file, well, she seemed to have most interaction with doctor. Fred Leininger am Great vet, five children under the age of ten, and they I've seen together in some out of the way places and apparently the rumors had been going on about them for some time, and I can tell this about the West side of Cincinnati Dan. My berry first chapter in some: it's almost gone. The chapter title is small town city small town, big ears, when, in tongues, very conservative. Over there I would say just generally speaking, a fair, that's exposed on the westside that involves a prominent businessman like Fred Leininger, that's going to be a problem.

It's not the kind of thing anyone would want to come to light. Let's, let's go backwards in this when the family is found murdered in midst. Cincinnati with serial killer, loose a strangler, the Cincinnati, strangler and various reports. Say in this investigation comes up, there's Numa Subscene phone calls came up, keep coming up in the reports and we have other attacks. So there's all kinds of eyewitness reports and when the police go to investigate this, they have to look at everyone and eliminate everybody before they can proceed so that they aren't. We we let the audience. I think that that the police are focused in surely or entirely on Fred line injure at all in they had to go. Look at whoa, Jerry, worked and look at relationships that he had and look very hard

at his temperament, see if there was some involvement, so tell us how police investigate this initially, and where are some of the sort of tangents and in terms of suspects that the police go towards sure I mean Dan. This is the kind of case that a detective might catch once in a lifetime? I need that kind of case. I found it interesting that so police tried to get your prediction on this, but the Bricker case was too blocks outside the city limits, so county took it on the sub police had way more resources, but I noticed account. T, went out of their way, almost immediately to say that the killer, the brick is, was a white man and I think they were trying to head off possible vigilante action.

The strangler has been identified as a black man, the immediate assumption, when the bricks are killed, as the strangler has moved out to the suburbs and changed his mo. An account made it very clear from the get go brick akin There is a white man and I think the tension was so. Racial tension was so great that they have to get that out there immediately. I think something was maybe going to boil over, but so now I got this case and sure the rumors about lining or started immediately, but you don't want to get involved in a confirmation bias and try to tailor your case that way they did over four hundred interviews. Everyone who had any contact with this family was was was looked at

and it really comes down to if you think about think about the lack of computers than Dan. You have to work on elimination you have to everybody that knew this family and eliminate them. You know you got the inner circle: neighbors friends, relatives, CO, workers, babysitters visitors, then you've regular delivery, people, mailman paperboys, meter, readers, milkmen, bread, trucks, then you've got periodic on site workers. You know, TR Trimmers landscapers are cleaning services. All people have to be checked. You know something have spammed this murder, the happened years ago. You know some random link, so in the pre computer age Only chance

to get a hand hold on this case with this man, us of information coming in Dan and seriously inundated with tips absolutely and the only thing they can really do is work on elimination, who can we Eliminate can we eliminate this tip? Can we eliminate this suspect, and hopefully you come down to the end and you've got somebody, but you know they have to look at everything rumors undertones like to say, objectivity, never solved a murder case. You have to get subjective you. Get down in the gutter, What were the secret's going on that spawned this triple homicide so based on what I just said and based on the amount of elimination, they did a poo

good job when, at the end. They had one guy still standing there. Dan. That they couldn't eliminate, and that was doctor. Fred lining her. Let's use this as an op, Trinity for a second j to talk about the sponsor of today's pro which is Zola, the wedding company that will do anything for love and it's reinventing the wedding planning and registering experience to make the happiest moment in couples lives even happier from a engage, the wedding and decorating first home Zola is there earning a passionate customer service with modern tools and technology all in the service of Love Zola's the easy way to plan your wedding and register. So that makes this takes the stress out of wedding planning with free wedding websites. Your dream, wedding registry, affordable, save the day

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last spoke of the investigation that the point in different directions: hello, we I spoke about. We last spoke about the invest patient. Turning to other suspects, one of those suspects was somebody that worked with Jerry at Monsanto. Tell us why he was a suspect for a time in this brick, a murder ace yeah. They interviewed over twenty. People at Monsanto, Dan and The way I've been inundated with rumors that Monsanto Knox Jerry off 'cause. He was a whistleblower about agent Orange Rock but any but anyway, he worked in the plastics plant in Cincinnati and Monsanto had nothing to do with agent orange, but that just shows you, the wild rumors that surround this case.

Jim Cannon was one of twenty people. Twenty that twenty five interviewed at Monsanto very frosty relationship with Jerry Broker, almost came to blows at a company cookout Cannon was the opposite of Jerry: brick both can work, temperament and personal temperament thought he was God skip to women and apparently paid a lot of attention to Linda Bricker. Whenever he was around her and you Jerry was pretty much a straight shooter. He was. He was Ivy League Jim Cannon, was city college and the night. The bed bodies were discovered on that 27th. Some Monsanto people were standing outside in the gathering group. There was fifty to sixty people outside this house watching the activity Jim Cannon walks up. And surprise these people.

He tried to suggest that he didn't know that was Jerry Brekus House, even though they had carpooled an he seemed to with the key. He was talking to. He seem to be losing an alibi already, in When they do the interview him, he had an exceptionally detailed alibi, mostly backed up by family members, so they took a good hard look at Jim Cannon unable to shake the alibi. I wonder about him because of his behavior after the crime. You know people can lie, but behavior never lies. He acted like a guilty man. Maybe it's because he figured they would suspect him, but he was certainly a good suspect in Dan. As you know, we had a local tv celebrity that was interviewed right, tell us about that.

Well that one ones didn't care that I put this in the book. Local can show host called Skipper I'll name is Glenn Rile. It was a local newscaster who ran a very successful children show I was actually on it. He was interviewed because of his very close association with docked Fred Liner uh, the prime suspect he in Glen Royal, were exceptionally close and remain that way until wiles death in the early 90s corner. What witnesses said? Riel drove really recognizable motorcycle on the West side and it was often seen parked outside the Glenway Animal hospital it was there. The days Linda, Bricker work there very PASA, well. He knew Linda Bricker,

he was kind of a bigger than life character, former special forces trained to kill large man, a bow hunter like red lining or was, and I but interesting that uh, the four hundred or so interviews sixty any of them were flagged as suspicious or carrying a key witness statement and Ronald Interview was flagged said some and the effect of his obviously a close friend of lining or- and we should not expect any help from him so if you're looking at multiple killers here, which is something I I've gone back and forth on you a minor local, celebrity who certainly a candidate for the part dinner. If lining or is looking for somebody to back him up. You know if he's having a problem with Jerry Bricker

Glenn Ryan was on a list of possible people. He would turn to yeah, I'm assuming when you're gonna murder people, when you need help you to go to the people you're closest to so I'm not saying he's involved, is just even the police at the time were suspicious. With him- and I can say honestly the cold case detectives that are working the case today are also still suspicious of him. Talk about the event with Robert Guertin, at this archery range and also what that tells police in terms of Fred and his basically their interest in him as a suspect yeah. That's how So weird, when Dan on Thursday night before the murders Linda Erica, had made some strange comments to her babysitter an tried to get

her babysitter again for Thursday night, but couldn't alinda places, 'cause, Alta, Fred, Leininger's answering service and it's coded as an urgent call so she's trying to get ahold of Doctor Fred, Leininger Thursday night urgently, don't know if they ever connect that night or not, but on Friday good morning, Lee The calls the clinic and says her daughter, Debbie left a book there. And Fred Leininger's right there when the call comes through with the book- and he says, he'll drop it off and a pair Well, he does enhance it to Debbie brick of playing in her front yard. He then, goes to shoot archery with some of his friends at a six who range out there and Lynn what's shows up and according to the witness they're lining friend, that he became very uncomfortable with her there and and the friend finally left. He said he felt kind of like a third wheel and when he left

turn on Friday afternoon, around one hundred o'clock, Fred, Leininger and Linda Bricker are alone in a sick who did area of of the West side at a archery range way out on Monday, Creek RD. I think it was an there alone there, Anne she murder two days later with her family. So. Seems very odd of she eventually lied to a neighbor about where she was 'cause. She had a neighbor watching Debbie during this period said she was getting her car worked on what she did get her car worked on that morning, but not that afternoon, but Trick is not the line more than you have to so thing was going on Friday afternoon. I think Linda's call about the book to the clinic is a co message. For her leininger to meet every

I just gotta remember this is one thousand nine hundred and sixty six. You can't text someone or call her cell phone or or message him, Snapchat am you know just laying lines is not even any answering machines. So. Very odd that she would call to get this book returned on this Friday, a children's book and that Fred Liner in media he jumped up and said I'll. Take it over. There seems like a coded message to meet an what went on between them when they were by themselves. That's a clue. Location on Friday, opened speculation, Linda, had told several people, while at the wedding of Jerry's sister in San Francisco three weeks before that hurt period was late and she might be pregnant and interest me because I honestly don't think that she and Jerry were having sexual relations that summer and fall.

He was spending a lot of time on the couch. Was she pregnant who, by you know if one enters the killer. You know what what corner did she push him into. To make him do this, you know what was the secret of their relationship? What was the nature of their relationship and point down? Can you talk about that interview on October eighth. Talk about yeah. What is his alibi and how to do, check that alibi and what do they come up with? Yeah I found it interesting Dan, that they did eight interviews On Wednesday twenty eight. They found the bodies the previous night so who did interview first, they went right to month,

you first, but they also interviewed, Linda Brickos employer that week, so the into Fred Leininger on that day after the bodies were found, and it was kind of a perfunctory interview, but I could see already that they were look. I met this guy a bit askance even the short ten minute interview. Only raise some questions, some things he volunteered without I'm asking like he was trying out a story. And then the rumors about him and Linda Braca increased. You know, as the investigation went on, so they finally sat down with Fred Liner on October eighth, one thousand nine hundred and sixty six and his place of business And this is the interview that kind of turn the case. It's what detectives like to call the moment Dan. You know you're interrogating a guy and he which tripping over his own tongue. An

these interrogators were good. I mean a good terra gator, ask short questions that day and long answers. Then they asked the same questions in a different way. You know they're just trying to get contradictions and apparently Fred Leininger during this interview became so flustered and So the and started leaking consciousness of guilt, and when he was asked about his alibi for the night in question, you'd have thought. He'd have been more prepared because he came up two things and the police knew both of them were on true, and it's basically like caught him in a lie twice. And he also lied about when he last saw Linda Bricker. He said it was Wednesday night at work, which is the last night she Darren yet lining, Zone friend places him with her on Friday and

so in the neighborhood place, Lind with Leininger on Saturday before the murders so he's right about when he last saw our he lied about his alibi twice and he currently became quite confused. When asked about her urgent message to him on Thursday night, he never got it and you I've heard the tape of the interview, and I can I can hear his voice getting chalky. Quavery, but I'm trying to imagine the visual cues that the to investigate must have seen as you know, They saw him literally, probably starting to sweat, and when they asked him the nature of your relationship with Linda Bricker? He turned the interview he been telling them all through the interview that he was pressed for time and with that question he terminated the interview.

And he went home and immediately lawyer up. This was on a Saturday when they tried to interview both him and his wife. On Monday we have Nothing to say here's our lawyers card, so the prime suspect, has retained a lawyer which he certainly has the right to do, and the police Hamilton County Sheriff's department never again sat down with Fred Liner that that October eighth interview the second interview of lining or close the last time they ever spoke to him officially. You talk about the attorney. Go ahead, go ahead. Why suspect, as I mentioned in the book,

They certainly spoke to him in ways afterwards. They maintain surveillance on this man for at least three years, and there were some incidents where I am on. County sheriff's deputies might have cost him coming out of a restaurant and say they things like wow. How could say Do you do what they did to that little a girl, you know how could they live with themselves and you know he's got to just take it. You know he could be with his family either? So they stayed on top of this guy for years later. But I think in the end of the securing attorney felt it didn't have enough to go to a grand jury and you know they really didn't other than his demeanor and his connection to the victim, unfortunately had a real lack of physical evidence, but we do have dna profile. Now you

talk about the attorney that he obtained and you talked it was a former state representative- and he was an auditor it he was the son of a former. State representative. He was a member of a prominent Westside family LA didn't just get any lawyer. He he really went up the food chain. He got a guy with tons of westside political connections and I think they Hamilton County investigators were just a little bit intimidated by this guy and then we have the Miranda ruling judge. Is paralyzed, actual on. You know you have the right to remain silent. You have the right to an attorney. There was some question about how to interpret this one went into They're getting line of her and in the end. I think the combination of of the

chance of the lawyer, the tremendously protective stance and the uncertainty over the Miranda ruling and how to interpret it. The thing just it it just probably came to an impasse- Ann in other cases where this happened. People ask me: why didn't they go to trial? Why didn't they charge him? Why didn't they get a conviction? You know their best thing they could have done. Dan was subpoena him to a grand jury. You would have had to shown up without his attorney, but his attorney I would have told him to take the fifth on anything he was uncomfortable answering and then he walks out of there a free man. So that's really what it came down to why they couldn't close it. You talk about him being a likely suspect and then a surveillance and then new, answers in dna technology. You talk about them, never finding the murder weapon, but

there was some dna, it's earned Sampa and they were tell us about the DNA. Let's talk the physical evidence here and I'll include that there was carving knife missing from the brick House, and the sheets for the knife. It definitely would have fit the wounds. The question of whether it was kept away in a drawer or out the bureau in drawer. Obviously somebody that knew the family would know it's there, but the night was missing was at the murder weapon. I don't know a red herring. I didn't get a chance to talk about Jerry, Brick's, physique. Dan, when I saw these crimes he photos, this guy was fifty nine one, ninety pounds he looked college wrestler. He look like bantam weight, lifter uh,

not a tall man, extremely muscular, build. And I saw morgue photos taken, next day so I'm naked on a morgue slab he's been dead three days and he still looked very physically imposing I almost immediately when I saw this. I remember I looked up at the cold case. Detective, cross for me and I said to killers don't believe one guy with a carving knife could have handled it. This is a man who would have fought like a tiger to say his wife, his daughter, Ann, he was slaughtered. Basically like a. Like a lamb to slaughter- totally unaware of the danger, I suspect, and to me that tells me there's a second man with a gun there appeared some ligatures, possibly used on the two adult victims that were removed. It was stabbed mostly from the back Linda from the front.

And you know, you've got a rage killing in that bedroom, perhaps controlled rage and the mer The child is nothing more and the elimination of a witness. Debbie was four talk like she was ten. She could recognize people speak in complete paragraphs. She was because she knew that at least one of the killers, but not the physical evidence at all, no good finger in some back. Then Dan fingerprints were dna basically, but they didn't compromise the crime scene enough in the two murder rooms that they actually came up with a dna profile of the killer, and this was based on Marlboro cigarette butts smoked in the murder bedroom and neither of the two adult victim smoked. Some hair found in LA you broke his hand, clasped in her hand and

and the Seminole fluid taken from her from there are the rape or the recent intercourse. Depending on which theory you would fifty two- and I can say this with certainty based on blood type on that semen. The man she had, the man she had recent intercourse with had a different blood type and jerry. So we know that we've got this dna profile now um they've sent it through Codis. You known felons no hits, predictably I I could have told him that, but here's the thing You know everybody now is so DNA oriented, you know what do they call it: the CSI of America. This is not a very clean dna profile. It was described to me.

We wouldn't get an Oj Simpson type number here. He One and seventeen million people fit this profile in mister. Simpson is one of them being nothing like that. We could get a one in twenty five one and thirty men fit this profile. That is not that's short odds, but it's long odds in the DNA game Ann. Again, I suppose a killed, a guy could say well yeah. I smoke some cigarettes over there and I had intercourse with her. I can kill her, so I don't think the DNA is going to yield a resolution to this case. Obviously, if things have been preserved better in nineteen sixty six, maybe it's a different story, but you know- who knew anything about DNA in nineteen sixty six yeah, it's just a vagrant fantasy. So

that's kind of where we sit. I don't think that profiles is going to move this case. For and I don't think we'll see any cooperation for familial familial DNA from Leininger's family and it's tough to get a prime suspect exhumed. It's not easy to do. And you know, there's basically a bias against Exu Ming people that have been obviously com who created and buried so I don't think we're going to get anything from the lining or family either so the only thing at profile has done is eliminate known felons. You talk, votes, leininger, being dead, tell us about that and about his wife, we'll not funny Dan. You know I hear rumors about this case all the time and some of them sound ridiculous to me, like when somebody first told me

ripper was a suspect. I say the kitty show host you're kidding me. Well, he's interviewed and it's flagged, but um with them. Line in her the rumor I heard was he and his wife killed themselves time IKEA sure my god. It was true Fred, liner and his wife are living in Sarasota FL and by the way down this isn't in the book, but chief investigator, her Vogel ran into Fred Leininger and his wife in Sarasota, at a universe, give Cincinnati alumni dinner, Ann Phyllis, Phyllis, Vogel, told me they she and her walk in and ran right into Fred and Lynn Liners, like literally in front of them, and- Fred and Lynn. Liner immediately did an about face

the other side of the room and never came near them, the rest of the night, but the rumor was that they had killed themselves in a hotel in Cincinnati. As soon as packed and it's at the true I drove up from are soda checked into a hotel. They had instruct for their children, they had cash give for grandchildren for birthdays red. Put a suit in the closet, with the notes had bury me in this and they took over doses of morphine. He died she lapsed into a coma and died nine months later so interest to think Dan Watt. Kind of conversation did they have right at the end there Lin lie niggers been married to him for fifty two years. For thirty seven of those years, her husband spent prime suspect in a grisly, triple homicide. I mean she

she has to think him innocent or I assume she go insane, but don't you have to wonder Did she ask him right before they took their own lives. Did she ask him to come clean, Didi, you? Those are the kind of things we can only speculate on. He left a suicide note. There was no mention of the rumors that had dogged him in terms of being a suspect. So yes, our prime, so expect, ended his own life and I pointed out other circumstantial evidence against him. In the book uh. He was seen near the crime scene. In a can, store at the time of the crime trying to use a pay phone and he appeared to be very distraught and confused and just put some a half a mile from our murder scene at the time of the murders. So there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that points to him. Uh in the court of the Armchair detective Dan.

Boy he's my number one with a bullet I mean he's he's all alone in a sort of law. It's not even an indictment yeah. What was one of more horrifying facts about this is that it looked like two investigators that tell us about what, Investigators, discovered at least was indicated about the fate of about the fate of Debbie Bricker. Well, I think she was killed last. She was dragged from underneath the bed and it appeared. Jerry had been putting her to bed when the killers arrived he always took off. Knee socks. One It was off lane on the bed and one was on her leg, so he appear would have been interrupted while putting her to bed some point Debbie Qua under the bed

balance in the next in the next door. Bedroom is going down against her parents and she is dragged out and very sonically, I would say, based on the looms I saw stabbed four times in the back and the blade went all the way through her body. So I know rage there, no anger, this was fear. The I they felt or Debbie was fear of being identified. You know that nothing against her, but people ask ready to kill the child. It's pretty simple. She knew the killers, so you know at the crime scene photos of the adults quite a bit 'cause I'm trying to learn from them. It was hard to look at the pictures of Debbie. You know I can remember my daughter and my granddaughter at that age, just really hard to look at that. You know I just kind of passed over it. Real quick, they were

Ever they killed her. What would the other witnesses, said that she referred to doctor Leininger as Watt Uncle Fred. Three witnesses close to the family, Debbie Fred, Leininger, Uncle Fred, with her love for animals, almost a path, logical obsession with animals was constantly over that clinic, confirm with lining or with Debbie apparently been pestering him about a job for months. And again Dan I'll say it again. She goes. I work there for the first time on Monday for the murders works three days and his murdered four days later, with her family. If she doesn't go to work at that clinic. Do this even happened.

Did she learn something at this clinic but something liner was doing because Dan, you know, reading the book there were a number of suspicious veterinarians on that side of town change veterinary practices going on a theft of animal tranquilizers from clinics people taking healthy pets in and having been called the next day and saying they died, and we've cremated, the body things going on if, when the brick work at that clinic, in fact found out that some harm was coming to animals somehow nearby lining or or one of his veterinary friends. She's not going to let that go right. So did she learn something? And if, physically involved with him and feels be true, by what she's doing and threatens to blow, the whistle

is comfortable little life will implode? Is great? Business is Mary which is five kids. His reputation and this guy was very status conscious everybody? I interview that knew him concerned about his image and his standing in the community so we're looking for motives for murder. The are all there personal cause homicide. He is involved with the female victim. The affair takes a wrong turn into rage and for fear, and that to me is to break a case. Absolutely you included in book out some incredible photos, including crime scene photos I could close to you for the inclusion of all of these incredible photos of the homes and locations map.

I got one hundred and sixty five images in their damn and if you read my books, I don't put twenty pictures in the middle of book. I give you tons of images placed in the chapters where you need them. That's what true crime I want to see, and I also a lot of section breaks and for the reader can rest and kind of gather all they learn. I mean this is a very complex case. I had to put a man massive amount of file information and try to make it into an interesting narative Dan originally five hundred and ninety pages, I got it down to five hundred and twenty five includes the Appendix II No yeah? I went after a lot of images. There's there's pictures of the family that have never been published Crime scene photos of the strangler victims in there and look at the cameo appearances in this narrative Dan Richard Speck, yeah

will be eight nurses in Chicago in one thousand, nine hundred and sixty six Charles Whitman, the very First Tower sniper Valerie. Mercy. The daughter of senatorial candidate, Charles Percy, is murdered a week before the brick is just unusual year for true crime in the nation, an I think, some of those crimes kind of dwarf what was going on in Cincinnati, yeah you gotta, you gotta conservative, midwestern city, confronting. Mysterious serial killer, while reeling from the slaughter of a beautiful, suburban family in nineteen sixty six, it's quite a crime story in its own right and that's why this book had to get out there? Absolutely yes, it's an incredible time: Henry Kredible response by media and the public, the fear and the investigation that did not lead to

conviction. I want to thank you very much JT for coming on and talking about summers almost gone, the brick of family murders, the most notorious cold case in Cincinnati history. Thank you very much. Jt Townsend made and I have a quick second here. Absolutely book is exclusively available at my website. My agent would want me to say this: www dot, Jttownsend dot com, sing a little special today with a coupon code, but again that's some Jt Townsend COM hardcovers. Cover. Looking for the e book in January, there is my plug. Thank you very much. I was going to ask you for that and how would people might be able to get a copy? e and rather work, Queen city, gothic and queen city notorious as well

Let's links to buy those or on the website. You know I like to I really write book with the true crime fan in mind: lots of photos, lots of pages lots of space spray, short paragraphs. You know I like I put the books the way I would want to read them. You know the way I want to true crime book to be so people buy it and enjoy it. It's a really incredible part. Cincinnati's history- you know the underside of it. When I can honestly say Cincinnati LAW, it's innocence in nineteen sixty six because of these events. So I appreciate you having me on Dan. Thank you very much. It was a certainly a crime that Cincinnati forever. Thank you very much for talk.

About summers almost gone JT towns and you have a great evening good. You too thanks. Thank you.

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