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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, a hot night in July, one thousand nine hundred and ninety five JANET downing. Forty two year old mother of four was brew. Please stab ninety eight times in her home in Summerville.

Thirty, two miles, NW of Boston within hours, a suspect was identified. Fifth, eighteen year old, Eddie O'Brien, the best friend of one of JANET's sons, but why Eddie he had no prior history of normal behavior. He was not mentally ill. He had neither motive nor opportunity to commit the crime yet None of that mattered because powers beyond his Summerville neighborhood decided the teddy needed to be guilty. The timing of this case did not bode well for Eddie, a movement hoping to stop the suppose. It rise young Super predators was sweeping the nation and June all the vendors were the targets, both the message. Choose its governor in an elected district attorney who personally litigated this case supported juvenile justice reform in both aspire to higher offices, Eddie Obeng,

case garnered both local and national publicity. He was be useful, Irish Catholic boy next door, his grand Mother was the retired chief of the Somerville Police Department Court TV. He covered the trial in adult court, gavel to gavel, calling it the, alter boy murder case his highly public. His case changed the juvenile laws in Massachusetts. Other states began to follow suit, but did the justice system fail Eddie that's the contention of author attorney Margo NASH in her explosive Expozay, the politics of murder, appointed eddies guardian ad litem. NASH attended every court session eventually gain access to all his files. Now after painstaking research

An examination of each step of the investigation, trial transcripts and the forensic evidence NASH makes the case that Eddie could not have committed the crime and that other viable suspects were never properly cancer. The book silver featuring this evening is the politics of murder, with my special guest journalist and author and attorney NASH. Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview, Margo NASH, thank you, Dan thank you for inviting me. Thank you very much faster in case again, I as I may before I'm learning so much for the differences between the vast differences between state law, incredible difference, yeah, let's. Get right to this. I won't ask why you got involved with this, because we will see very early on why you were involved with this. As I mentioned, you were appointed the Guy Guardian ad litem. Let's just start with what

Guardian ad litem is to give us that background and give us your back as a lawyer before as an introduction to how you came to this case sure, a guardian ad litem is an attorney, usually an attorney. It doesn't have to be appointed in a in a lawsuit and generally it. Happens in child custody proceedings and they are appointed to protect the interests of the child of who is admire in this particular case the eddies attorneys asked for the pigment of a guardian ad litem for various reasons, and the judge appointed me too help Eddie navigate his way through the system. He was in the

juvenile system at that particular point to help. You understand the proceedings and various things that were happening to him. My background is that I graduated from law school one thousand nine hundred and eighty three an for five years. I was an attorney with the State Department of Social services where I I prosecuted child Abuse and neglect cases, and I then went into private practice and did it number of different areas of law, one of which was juvenile another, was divorce and child custody, and I also was certified by the court. After taking certain course this required courses to be a guardian at Litem, to act as a guardian ad litem, so that I could.

Protect children's rights in the court system. No, as you talk about in the book here, we we set up the story begin the story with uh background on Eddie O'Brien Grandfather's birthday was a week before this incident. His grand father, TJ or chief as he was known, was the chief of police for the Somerville police. Is we had mentioned an he'd retired years before uh his father's name? We had so tell us a little bit about who Eddie's family was.

The members of his family and tell us about the Downing family, which was right across the street before we talk about this little neighborhood, a little ways out of Boston: okay, yeah, the pair Eddie's parents. Their names are Ed and Tricia Patricia and Trisha was her. Maiden name is also O'Brien. They both grew up in Summerville they will come from Irish Catholic families with several siblings. Ed Senior is the youngest of his group of siblings, having been born much after some of his older siblings. He grew up in the house that Eddie later

it in his siblings later grew up. Then it was a family home owned by the chief uhm. The there were five children in the house, and he had an older sister name. Gene Edy Jessica was twelve at the time. I'm too little girls name Marion Megan three years old and three months old at the time of the incident. That? She was living in the Eddie O'Brien House and Papa the grandfather. The chief was in the house. As you said, there was a birthday party for him the week before this incident he had just been diagnosed with terminal cancer and and he was he was not well and he would die not too long after his arrest, um of cancer across the street, the downings of

they purchased a house. Where is the O'Brien family had lived in that house for at least in one generation so far that downing family moved into that house when JANET married or Custom Pool senior at the time of the incident Paul, senior and JANET, your divorce had been divorced. I believe Paul. I know always remarried at that point and lived in another town. Janet live there with JANET Head fortune for children, the oldest, was carrying in, and then Aaron and then the twin boys, Ryan and Paul Junior were fifty been sixteen years old at the time, and in the house, the only child that was not in the home time living in the home with Carrie Ann. No,

surround out this their family. We talk, I'm sorry, go ahead. I turn around and sell it at that. I'll. Wait for your question to run this out to Have you mentioned that JANET rented, the other part of the duplex that she lived in two berry in Virginia Reckley and you also talk about again very crucial person in character in this? sorry is Gina Mahoney. So let's talk about Virginia and Berry rectally and then we'll talk about. Gina Mahoney to round out this. This is very, very important neighborhood in this story. Ok, I will I was going to say earlier that Paul, downing Senior and JANET downing were not from Summerville. They

not originally from Summerville or from that neighborhood, unlike Gina Mahoney, who is the third, has Three generations of Mahoney's have grown up in her house. She, it's two doors down on the on the O'Brien side of the house. The reklys were renters, I don't believe They were from Summerville, but they were renters there for about five years since uh there there they They had, they had a daughter who was married, who had, I've been married when they first moved there. They were only just there for about five years now You talk about Gina Mahoney and you talk about how close JANET was, and so tell us about where JANET was that day that we're talking about July 23rd? one thousand five hundred and ninety five. So you talk about

time JANET spent with Gina tell us about what Gina recalls from that afternoon that many hours they spent together. What do they talk about Ann? tell us a little bit about Gina Mahoney. Gina Mahoney is a wonderful wonderful person, she's she's, an icon in the neighborhood. Everyone knows her she's been there forever. She grew there is a child she's known Ed Senior, since it senior was smaller. He there there's at least ten or fifteen years difference Between the Gina Mahoney in the O'Brien parents and she uh she, as I said, she lives two doors down from the O'Briens and she is just a friend everybody in the neighborhood, JANET

over to her house very early that morning was hot hot muggy day and and it had been a hot week. Air conditioned air conditioning was not pray. In the neighborhood. These are old, three three decker houses and Wooden, framed houses, and there may people may have an air conditioning unit in their bedroom. But there was no such thing as central AIR and JANET came over in that hot morning, and brought her coffee and and she I need to talk to Gina, because Gina had worked in a union office for a utility company, all of her life and new, Lot about labor relations and about unions and about. Employee rights, and JANET was concerned because She felt she was being pushed out of her job at a local health insurance facility where she was a Claire.

Will worker and she wanted Gina to review her performance review. Listen to give her an opinion to whether or not she should try to fight the potential discharge that she thought was coming and that's what she her initial purpose was when she came over during the day. Gina's daughter, Danny came in, and there was some discussion about her going out that night and jam and it immediately remarked. You know that she should be careful where she goes at night, because, three months before this, a young girl. Name Deanna had

brutally MER murdered just blocks from where would where this houses and her no they had. Never. They still have not charged anybody with that murder or they don't know who killed. Deanna Graham and she's been dead. Now, almost twenty three years. So. That was much on everybody's mind and after Danny left, the room Gina explained to Janet downing that Danny was friends with Deanna Crimson. That was upsetting, you know and she was still very up. Said about that and at which point JANET said. If anything like that ever happens to me, Today, I want you to promise me Gina that you will investigate, investigate, investigate and she pounded her fist into her. There into the palm of her other hand and saying investigate, investigate, investigate and,

I would never kill myself, and even if it looks like an accident promise me that you'll have the police Vesta gate. Gina was taken aback and she said my God is something. Are you afraid of? Something is something happening and why would you even say that? And she then explained that she was afraid of some one, and she explained why she was afraid of this person, and this person happened be a family member of hers who she felt Following her an was trying the Terrorizer Ann and she believes that he had been coming in and out of her house while she was at work, moving things around taking her per spell diary from the night stand another harrowing incident which had happened, maybe several weeks before that when she was coming home from work at the family Amber who she was afraid of work for a cab company.

And she was coming down at one a one way street and suddenly She was surrounded by these tabs and There was one on either side over one in front of her one behind her flashing in there bright lights. It was dark out, hunting there orange and petting her in and she said she was so scared. All she could do was look straight ahead, and try not to hit one of the cabs, and it was his this family members cab Company- and she was absolutely unhinged by that in then- and it really really terrified her and, as I said she and uh incident. She found a personal diary missing from her night table. She couldn't figure out what had happened to it and she We went over to her house to get it to bring it to Gina's to show her, and then she said that several weeks after the diary went missing this family member her brother in law, just

she was getting in her car again from work and he was standing beside her car and she looked up then she was startled and he had the diary in his hand, and he handed it to her and he said he had founded on the street somewhere: You know that was absolutely not plausable that scared her and then she said to Gina. Hey. Do you notice? Do you ever notice tabs here at my house when I'm when I'm home and Gina said: there's a cab every day in your driveway he's here, all the time, Gina New brother in law because the brother in law had lived with JANET and her. Family for a year when they became homeless, they move Dental JANET's JANET Dan and persist. Here in her brother in law and their baby, moved into the den and live with them for a year.

And it was in March of two thousand I'm sorry of nineteen. Ninety five, that JANET had to ask them to leave the house because According to JANET the brother, always dealing drugs to the neighborhood children from her basement. And she would not tolerate that and He was very angry at being asked to leave and she had has to many times to get her keys back, and he said he did have them it, he lost them, but apparently It would appear that he still had them, because he is in her house everyday. When the children at school and she was gone, I saw him there, so that is a lot of what they talked about right now with this as well. They also talked about Kerry Anne being a problem because Carrie JANET had also Joe said yeah. She had struggled as a teenager

She struggled with I think, dabbling in drugs. She had some. You know, issues of anger and rage and various situations that had cause disruption in the family and caused JANET to have to call the police several times and go looking for her several times when she run away I believe she was a truant at one point, or you know there has been a difficulty in that situation, so carry in at the time of her mother's murder was living in a women shelter with her baby. Now you talk about Virginian Berry and they had been neck. Store for five years and that day July, twenty in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five there were home virgin,

enter daughter, Christine heard a loud boom at eight hundred and fifteen, and they knew they noted. That was that I'm sounding like thank you write that someone was falling down red, fallen, four or five that's downstairs now, apparently the daughter was alarmed, they didn't hear JANET and typical barking dogs what was their reaction other than noting that they heard something. What did they do and tell us what happens uh, but they soon see uh Ed O'Brien Trish's husband tell us what Happ after they notice and shortly after what happens involving the scene. Ed O'Brien. Okay. The directors were home all day babysitting for their granddaughter Christine's daughter. And they had dinner, came at six hundred o'clock. They had dinner together, it was berry's birthday they bought the after.

Dinner that spaghetti and meatballs after dinner, they brought the baby out to the backyard to give the baby a pool in little waiting pooled kohler down. They played out there for awhile and when they came, they were going back in the house to have birthday cake and both Christina there's a there was a clock right over the cellar stairway. As you walk in the back door, you it was right there, but to them noted that it was about ten after eight eight hundred and fifteen, when they walked in the house, they went to the dining room, to change the baby. The mother, Christina and Bridge- correctly and the baby went to the dining room and the dining room wall is the wall. That is the party wall to the downing home where they were changing the baby, though I heard what sounded like somebody crashing down the stairs of falling down the stairs at JANET Downing's, home and Christina still alarm. She said. Oh, my god,

did you hear that? Should we do something and they stop for men to listen and and Virginia said you know their dog barks at everything and he's not barking, so I think it's probably ok or the dog would be barking. So the fact that the dog wasn't Parking gave them some reassurance that everything was okay, that it wasn't anything untoward, but they were very clear and they both were very clear about what time happened, and then they had the birthday cake that had the celebration and they packed up the baby, an Christina her husband and the baby left at about nine hundred o'clock and she Virginia went in to do the dishes. They had heard nothing aft that bang an she noticed when she turned on the water to do the dishes at nine hundred o'clock that there was no water pressure. This was a constant prob

well that they had in the house and they'd had for five years when, anyway, he was using the water on the downing side of the house. There was no pressure on the. The side of the house, so she said it took. You know five minutes to fill up the spaghetti pot with sudsy water to let's soak and then do all the dishes in the cake dishes and all of that stuff. She she said it took along in time for her to finish the dishes. It was nine hundred and thirty or after nine hundred and thirty by the time she finish, the dishes and entire time there was no water pressure in her house. She went into the living room. She was sick, on the couch berry was watching television and she was there for He doesn't know how long she said, sometimes a short time after she finished the dishes and went into the living room. She saw and heard big at O'Brien, as he's known in the neighborhood, run by their front window and say: Barry

come and help me there something wrong and they both rushed out of the house and followed him into the Downing House and when they got inside the Downey House, they saw JANET lying pool of blood in her dining room and she appeared to be deceased and at that, just at that moment Ryan, who is Eddie's best friend. One of the twin sons started to come into the house and his rollerblades and Virginia was in her bare feet. She and she stepped on it. What was a picture frame that had phone in the struggle that JANET had, and She hopes Getting cut her foot or broken the glass, but she knew she had to get run out of that house, and-

and so she took him outside and Ed called the police. Now you talk about Carol. Yes, you talk about Virginia and berry we're never interviewed by Somerville police immediately after or state police til that they wanted before they were going to testify. So now tell sounds police proceed here with what they do find Anne? What they do conclude tell us who's involved and what they conclude from the evidence there when They talked to Eddie O'Brien and tell us how long it takes for that arrest, okay,

police arrived, and there were approximately seventeen people, including police civilians, detectives, EMT, he's in and out of that house before they secure the perimeter, so it wouldn't be Hammond, aided by everybody, walking around in this blood, and so in other words, I'm saying that the scene was terribly contaminated by the failure of the police to secure the scene. T v, police officer who was there.

Would not let the Emts in at at in the beginning, because he determined by his own calculations by going over to the body and feeling for a pulse in her neck, that she was to see, she was cold to the touch, that's what he said and that there was no hope of reviving her so that he would try to preserve the scene at some point he changed his mind and he left them in. So the Emts came in three or four of them and they cut her clothes off and they they they integrated air. They they did cp. Our on her and and- finally they put her on a stretcher and to carry out of the house, and she was. There was so much blood that it was dripping down off of the stretcher and they had to stop at some point and secure the stretcher so that they would

just have a trail of blood wherever they were going. She was stabbed ninety eight times now you talk about the stab ninety eight, times but there's more. He removes her bra perpetrator, moved her bra sliced that bra thirty six times and placed it back on her body, and he so also suppose we spent some twenty two other slice wound some of the deepest four inches on on our neck or the they were eyes will be inside words are not superficial, they're they're, they break the skin, but they're, not deep wounds, they're, not four inches long, four inches deep, their twenty there, their ear to ear russian back twenty two incise wounds like that there

stab wounds to her the middle of her chest, but not on her breasts. However, the broad that was she was wearing had thirty six stab wounds in the cups of the bra. That didn't correspond to any stab wounds on her body, so they concluded that the perpetrator had and they also she was terribly bruised. Her ear was Mister was Bruce, she was beaten and and and- and there was blood up and down the stairs of the last four five stair. On the wall on the baseboard on the stairs in the in the entrance to the dining room and and then a huge amount of blood in the dining room. They determined that she had been. She struggled and She had tried to find her way into the dining room table. If that she tried to turn the

on or off off. It's unclear unclear, which way it was when when, when she was found. And they found her and they determined that the person had the perpetrator had at this time. I'm dressed her stab the bra and then replace the broad back on her because the broad was on her, but it was not hooked in the back. Okay, now so we have the the police, try to examine this. But meanwhile, you have information later, as we put it as you put in the book, her Virginia Lamoni would spend ten hours with JANET was taking one of the action unfolding from reports I thought at first. It was maybe another incident with Kerry End. However, she saw or Ortiz her brother in law, Ortiz walk from the hamlet ST towards your house so describe,

but she saw what was his description, which seemed out of whack for a lot out of the norm for the considering the temperature so tell us, what she saw and what she thought at that time, Begena went over to your house. Gina went over to the downing how she went inside. So she was one of the other people inside nobody had protective booties. Nobody had medical gloves you know there was medical debris all over the place they've been thrown about, but they were still working on JANET when when Gina went in there. Gina said there's too many people here, and you know I'm I'm going to leave this scene and go.

Back to where I go back to my porch, just as she was on her porch, she saw Artie Ortiz, who is Janice Brother in law, used to live with her walking up from the direction of JANET's backyard past his cab and his cab was penned in by the ambulances and first responders, the fire trucks and police cars, so that he had been park there, obviously before they got there, and they got there in about two minutes after ten and she she saw him He walked over to her house and she said it was the hottest muggiest night and he like you just stepped out of the shower and he was, very well groomed and he claimed that he been driving cab and he claimed that his dispatcher called him and told him that his sister in law had been murdered, and this is seconds after JANET was still in out.

Her body merrill in the house- and they were still working on her, so she had by no means dead and and that seemed very odd to Gina that he should do that then he asked to borrow her phone and he borrowed the phone and and he said that he had called. I can't remember quite who he said he had called, but I think his words were well she's. Officially dead now but she hadn't even been transported to mass general, which is where she was declared dead. So it was very, very, very odd, his behavior and his comments about the state that JANET was in and and the fact that his car was parked there before the

responders. So it appeared from what Gina could set could see that he had been there and had been at the scene, long before anybody anybody was called. You also write that he sprinted across the lawn and will stop by an officer he told the copy losses keys and wanted to go to the backyard. To look for them. He told J. The same and said, essentially I'm screwed. You know he it was. He was in a panic over the keys that he said were in the backyard he said: he'd lost his keys in the backyard and the police. At this point I put the yellow tape around the house and the backyard, because the escape route of the perpetrator was through the backyard through the back door But that's what's assumed anyway, there was blood all over the back door, so

and the then the cellar door was wide open and he wouldn't let go back and get his keys and he had to call a tow truck to come and get the cab. Gina didn't know that the back door was open at that point or what role that had played in the scenario and she tried to calm him down and said you know. Don't worry, I'm sure this happens to cab drivers all the time and just call them just have an extra set of keys at the office, and he said. No, no, no, you don't understand you don't understand, I'm really. This is really bad and she said well and then apparently he called a tow truck and the tow truck came death, cab and uh. I don't know actually whatever happened about his key I have been told that they were retrieved by the police and returned to him, but I don't know that for a fact.

Now, right away, sorry, you ask asked talk about gene and, of course, Gina is a friend of Jan and the family in the neighborhood fixture and so investigators ask couple questions. When was the last time you saw JANET downing and when did she leave your house? So then that was the following day made it clear that she had additional information, so tell us about what she wanted to tell them and this transaction, where she couldn't get that information to police and why she wanted to tell them about JANET Sphere of her brother in law and her brother in laws behavior the night before and his appearance the night before, while JANET was being worked on, By the Emts and what he had done at her house and what he had said at her house and also which

Then it was afraid of that how she expressed that fear literally hours two hours before she was murdered, and they said they didn't need to know any of that. That's all they needed to know right now, which they didn't need no anything else, they need to know what time JANET had left her house and was that the last time she saw her and that was she said I had. I have a lot of information about this. She you know she was. With me all day and they said no we're all set well. We need to know right now and then for a year she Gina called the detective bureau. To try to get them to interview her and to tell them that she had information. She thought was relevant and they just said we Have all the information we need. Thank you. Now you take us back in the book to wear he tells his dad he's going to the burger king and then he goes to his friends house.

Which is next door Ryan Downing and wraps on Ryan Downings Window, like he had done many a time. So what did you hear and what does he do as a result of what he hears? the banks on that window next door. He heard what he thought was somebody saying help me and it was very dim and the front door was wide open and he into the little four year, and then he opened that door that opened into the house itself and he looked and he saw the blood he saw and straight ahead and in front of him he saw the bathroom door open the Saint running at full force and he turned to his right. He saw JANET lying on the floor and he thought maybe she had fall, ignore you. He didn't know she was our side and he and he didn't, know,

He didn't know what had happened to her, so he went over to her and knelt down and he sugar and you said JANET Janet, are you? Ok? Are you ok and, and she respond and she felt funny Turner over and that's when he saw the stab wounds in her chest and he realized that she was terribly terribly. Not you know, injured and and not by simply falling down. He then stood up and and turned to go back out the front door and it would he didn't know where this person came from. It seems he had come from behind the front door. He said, but a person who had a nylon stocking over his head, confronted him with a huge knife and told him to close the inner door that

come through the inner for your door, an Eddy, backed himself up to that door and closed it with his hand and the guy help. The night to his neck? And he said you know if you tell anybody what you've seen. I know where you live and I know and I'll kill you whole family. At that point, they both the perpetrator and Eddie, heard the knock at the door of the three friends who had shown up at nine hundred and twenty and after the three boys stop knocking, he told editing, you know to get out of there and you know just get outta here and don't say anything and if you say anything, I know where you live: to kill your family, so Eddie took off. He ran through the kitchen down the cellar stairs. And ran straight out the back cellar door, which was wide open.

It was already wide open and he ran through there. In fact, he didn't want to go turn right and go into under hamlet, ST be, because she was afraid the perpetrator might have gone out the front door and be running down hamlet and he would get him and kill him, so he and into the Bush is, and they were behind JANET's house and that's when the three boys who have been knocking at the front door moved three friends of Eddie's and Ryan, moved to tored the backyard Ann and heard. The wrestling of Eddie in the bushes and uhm Eddie jumped out of the Bush is an ran down, Hamlet, ST that, and that was at nine hundred and twenty. As I said so, Eddie had left his house telling his father that he was going to burger king and he decided

He would stop to see if Ryan was home, yet he Orion had gone swimming and he knocked on the window encountered that scene that I just described and that was at nine hundred and fifteen. He left his house nine hundred and fifteen, and at nine hundred and twenty the boys knocked on the door and that's why the guy told him to get out so for Eddie to have committed. This is why it's ludicrous detected Eddie could have committed. One of the reasons why it's Ludacris could Eddie would have had five minutes to walk across. This is twenty five yards away and Eddie Spa

first on the front. Porch most of the neighbors are on their front. Porch. The whole neighborhood is out to walk across the twenty five yards. Fifty two feet. I think it is across the street murder his neighbor in five minutes not going to drop a blood on them and flea out the back door, all without all within five minutes is just makes absolutely no sense, not helping him is the one of the most profoundly people stories. I've ever heard he encounters at the burger king another. Two teenagers confronting him demanding his money. Seventeen dollars flashing, a knife saying now. I have to cut you 'cause, I'm a I saw your face. And he sidesteps we get it, but he gets his hand cut. You know so

So well you sound just where he got his hand cut. Yes, while he was in a complete state of shock, you know he was. He went to the burger king, he didn't order food, he went to the bathroom and he just sat there trying to compose himself. I mean he. He was completely in you know in in a few and he doesn't remember his hand being cut then, and he he. Finally, after he composes himself, he leans burger King and he starts walking down Summerdale avenue toward the convenience store, which is where he worked, and it was in on that little walk that he gets confronted by two teenagers who say, give me all your money. He gave him seventeen dollars and he,

and one of the guys says. Well, I think you looked at my face now: I'm going to have to cut you in sort of lunged at him with the knife and uh and he grabbed a night and he thinks that's where he got cut, but he. You know he doesn't remember feeling that he got cut anywhere. I mean just remember getting hurt in the Bush, is which he did. He was not in a. He was in a complete state shock, the entire time. Say to unbelievable how many, how many fifteen year old boys see their best friends mother, murdered, and within another half an hour get mugged. I mean the chances. Are brazilian to one and

as an attorney. It's like yeah cringe. When you hear that, could you think I will never get a jury to believe that you know, and sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction and it's very very hard to deal with and no one ever believed the mugging story. That's how Eddie became a suspect. You asked me what eh did they have, they had no evidence whatsoever. The only evidence they had was that, after He got mugged. He walked into the store where he worked and they they called the police to report the mugging handed Eddie, the phone, so that this is at about one thousand o'clock that he was mugged so that's exactly when the first responders are getting to JANET Downing's house and finding her murder, so they catching these calls. They learn through their radios. That Eddie has a cut on his hand

at midnight, convenient and JANET Downing is stabbed. Therefore, we should look at it. That is basically what happened, because when the these came and looked at the M cheese came. They looked at his hand. They said there was no bloody Wilson fleeting here: Have any blood on his hands? You know they said you know, we figure. Ok, ok just go home, they let the police drove mom and it was his grand father who said no, you need to go to the hospital and you need to get it pet, a shot if nothing else and so his family. Welcome up to the hospital, and it was then that this summer will police dispatched somebody from the district attorneys office and somebody from Summerville up to the

Hospital where Eddie was being seen for the cut on his hand and swabbed the blood on his legs. We use this as a nut. Pop could use this as an opportunity to take a break to talk about today, Sponsor which is zip recruiter Are you hiring? Do you know where to post your job? to find the best candidates poll. In your job in one place isn't enough to find quality candidates. If you want to fine the perfect hire, you need to post your job on all the top job sites, and now you can Wasziprecruiter, dot com? You can post your job to two hundred plus job sites, including social media networks like Facebook and Twitter. All with a single click find Candidates in any city or industry nationwide, just post once then watch your qualified candidates, roll into zip recruiters, easy to use interface. No, juggling emails or calls to your office

screen candidates rate them and hire them hire the right person fast final. Today Why zip recruiter has been used by fortune? One hundred companies Anthousa there's a small and medium sized businesses, and, right now my listeners of true murder can post jobs on Ziprecruiter for free by going to zip recruiter. Dot, com, slash murder, that's zip, recruiter, dot, slash, murder, one more time to try for free, go to ziprecruiter dot com, slash murder,. When we last left off Margo, we last nothing off Margo. We were talking about some of the circumstances that Eddie O'Brien K, to be the number one suspect. Let's talk about what happens to Eddie O'Brien, immediately after and and you can see

introducing some of the legal people that are responsible for Eddie O'Brien being arrested shortly after. This little bit of information comes to light for those people. The only information we had was that Eddie had a cut and JANET Downing was stabbed that. Really the only information they had for two days, but that night, the night of the murder in the night that he was at hospital. They brought Eddie down to the police station. They took his clothes, the clothes he had on. They took his fingerprints. They asked him if he had been at JANET down his house, he had left earlier in the day when all the boys were there

hanging out and he he said he had not returned he he was not. He was not going to tell the police anything because he was terrified that his fam was in jeopardy. His mother just had a baby. His grandfather was dying. He you know family would have to leave the residence he just done. You know so he did not tell the truth to the police. It was sometime later that day date. As I said, they swabbed the blood on his legs and they claim they allege. I don't know because we haven't tested it too, but they allege that one of those one Swat one drop of blood, but he should

tested as an ab type blood in his blood was oh and JANET. Downing's was ab; now they never did dna on it. We never determined if it was JANET downing. Blood or not, but they determined that, because that blood was a match and his finger friends were found in JANET Downing's blood on the back of that door when he closed the door that he need not only see the prime suspect he was the one and only suspect from the minute he called in to the police midnight convenient until he was tried and convicted. Two years later, they never ever looked at another suspect at the same time, The order or to his and his wife Carol, they say said that there was something about a

the wishes of JANET that they wanted that JANET would want him to have her car and to to contain. You taking care of their home and raise their children, even so, with that audacious claim to try to get their stuff. Still never raised any red flags with anybody in law enforcement. Did it unfortunate didn't know about it 'cause they told that they told that to Gina Mahoney the next day. The day after Janice Murder Party came by and said, listen J I told her me: we had a long talk and she told me if anything ever happened to her, that she wanted me to have her car, and you know Gina thought this guy is delusional. She was terrified with you. She would never have done that and that she even wanted us to move back into the house and take care of her children, and that was all the information that Gina had that the police said they didn't

right now. Also, what happens is that in short order, cooperating in his father's cooperating and he submits to the sodium Amytal, so the truth, serum an what's the result, so that, even though it's not admissible with results from that, the results of that were that he told the exact same story before he was administered. Any truth, serum Anaf He was administered, truth, serum and the results by the Phd psychologist who administered the test said that he was being truthful and that he had not committed this crime. Now they realize it there's nothing person. The keys were on the kitchen counter, there's no robbery right. What

What is their initial idea, because quickly, they have some kind of idea that what this crime was all about and, of course, Changing white is it initially; they think that they could be of a motive or reason, for initially initially they stage this murder. Initially, district attorney Tom Reilly, who personally oversaw the investigation and personally litigated the case he was the elected district attorney for the County of Middlesex. He said we have no uh. As to motive it's going to take us awhile to figure out motive, and that was there. There was no suggestion of motives really if there was a complete perplexed. Everybody was perplexed, including the investigators as to motor

until the psychologist, who evaluated Eddie in the juvenile facility for the court, the court ordered A psychological evaluation until the psychologist submitted his report December and said you know. What's striking, is the absence of motive and set. It was once that repo it was submitted, and the district attorney realize what trouble he was in, even though he doesn't have to prove motor immediately came up with. Series of a motive in his theory, started with that Eddie had an an unusual interest in in JANET downing that he was more curious but her that he should have been, and then it evolved into that this interest had a sex all over town to it, and you know

by the middle of that of this, the transfer hearings and the the the course that this case took in the juvenile court. You know he was that he was so old. A sexual predator, essentially, is what they were trying to say and that occur. Never never held water with anybody and was not ever presented at his adult trial because it was just not provable there. You know, but they went with the they went by the time they got to the adult court and did the adult trial they went back to. He had an unusual interest in her now that was what they figured out of the biggest issue. This this and the reason why you call it politics with murder, is that there are some changes in juvenile law, incredible changes. So I'm going to get you to tell us what was before what was juvenile law and the split sentencing and then

talk about why There were changes in the juvenile law and Wyatt this time, and why Riley and tell us about the politics of murder. There is a lot of talk at the time and about the super predators about running our inner cities running. You know easy through our inner cities and killing innocent people and and we have to type titan and tough in the juvenile laws and the governor at the time Governor bill weld was very much in favor that, as was attorney General General Riley, yeah, I'm sorry district attorney, Riley and At the same time, governor weld was seeking to run for ascendancy and Mister Riley speaking to run for the attorney general's office in prep,

eventually running for governor- and this was a perfect storm. A perfect cause too, to come to the people with that, you know we're going to get tough on juvenile crime and we support these laws so that it used to be that. If you were under the age of sixteen that the government had between the ages of fourteen and sixteen you could not be charged with murder in adult court. If you are sixteen or sixteen and above you could the government could come in and prove that you are not a good candidate for rehabilitation and ask that you be transferred to adult court, while Eddie was in the system those was changed and they changed as a direct result of this case and some others that had occured,

in downtown Boston, and so that, eventually, what we ended up was with a law that juveniles as young as fourteen, can be tried in adult court and that it was the their obligation to prove to a juvenile judge, if they, if they were between six hundred and fourteen and sixteen it was the juveniles obligation to prove that he could be rehabilitated, so you could see, he would conundrum was for Eddie O'Brien. He had to prove that he could be rehabilitated from a murder he didn't commit, plus they were creating a whole new juvenile court system, and so the the courts were in flux and then the there is split sentencing where you could they could sentence you when you do part of your time is juvenile part of your time is an adult, and Eddie was one of the first people to be to be subjected to that law.

Um and the governor was vocal in his support of that law, as Eddie's case was tending and referring to the case. And the governor was appointing judges to the Supreme Court of Massachusetts. Who would who would a wool on that case and and he was appearing in rallies with the downing family standing beside him. It was pretty spectacular. Now you talk about, we won't be able to cover everything, but you talk about some really glaring non evidence here in that he claims to have one learn some clothes and he's in the same clothes. So give us the three or four points you have that seemed to be incredulous that Riley, despite his political aspirations, should still be an acting district.

Any with some kind of moral. You know ethical boundaries, and so what is he ignoring? In your view? That's so glaring in terms of evidence or the couple things to the music during one is- is that for Eddie to have changed his clothes, they seized his clothes. Is the clothes he had on that night. They sees them, they were. The same. Clothes had been wearing all day, no blood on, and White White T shirt, with no blood sneakers with no blood, and they say well, you know that's easy. He must have changed his clothes and that, so how did he change his clothes and into what and when and where he would have had to change his clothes hide his old sweaty clothes and then. You know anybody who committed the person who committed this

crime or the people that committed this crime. If it was more than one person were covered in blood head to toe so in their hair under their fingernails on the ride on there I left they would take more than a shower to get the blood off of you so he's claiming that he he I walked out of this scene covered in blood, somehow put him so close without getting any blood on them without having the opportunity to shower, and it was just ludicrous Ludacris. So that, at the time you know, I mean how how he's ignoring the timeline ignoring the fact that there's no suggestion that he ever change clothes, it's on at nine hundred and fifteen in these clothes, they saw him at one thousand o'clock in these clothes, and there was no change of clothes and they're, also ignoring the fact that he didn't have time to do any of the things that needed to be done in order to

change of clothes and and murder. Somebody and then come out with now out, any blood not only on his clothes but on him anywhere, at least in around his key circles under his fingernails. Nothing, let's talk about the murder weapon and the conclusive inconclusiveness inclusiveness of that, in terms of of being the smoking gun here, how how strong or weak is the murder weapon evidence. About that the Commonwealth, the district attorney alleged that were it. This theory was that at that he had committed this murder with a three inch pocket pen, knife and the meaning, the

blade was three inches long and then the handle was another two one slash two inches. Let's say which is very small, decorative knife and they made that allegation because they found a piece of metal which they said. Would Built to that night, Eddie had shown other people at some time. Previous to that, the again it's it's, the the wounds that the JANET downing suffered. Some of them were up to four inches deep, which would have meant that and and the at the night Eddie had had to fill, not just one. They found one help so that the perpetrator, if he used a knife- or it is any word

Perpetrator and use the knife he would have had to have downing with a three inch night and gone one inch into the handle with one of the hilt still on it, and there was no evidence of any markings of that kind. No bruising around any of the stab wounds that she had, and some of them were four inches deep one world went through her chest, separate two ribs and punctured her lung and went into her liver. I believe that's how deep it was. You just can't do that with a three inch blade uh. It was five slash, eight of an inch wide and the some of the wounds were twice that wide. So it didn't make any sense that that would be the murder weapon, but that's what he went with and that's and he got his conviction with that before we get to it

kind of conviction. We've got to talk the step. You are that way in the brave people that that came and gave you interviews and gave you the information for be able to do this incredible exposes. We talked about you interviewed by Richard Barnum, you did interviews with family. Are you got grand three minutes and you, but more importantly, you interview Judge Paul Hefferman, the presiding judge in these transfer cases, so the transfer is to see if he's going to be raised to adult court, Judge Paul Hefferman, as the judge how does it proceed with Judge Paul Hefferman before we talk about jeopardy jump ahead. That tells what he said at the time he was asked to do at the time. Judge happen in heard the transfer hearing an He weighed all the evidence and he determined that even if Eddie had committed this crime that he

Lee was a candidate for rehabilitation and had no history of mental illness and was found to be have no no mental illness and no need for any mental health care by the psychologist appointed by the court psychiatrist appointed by the court, he'd judge Heffernan determined that he should remain in the juvenile system.

Where if found guilty, he would have done time in juvenile court it juvenile detention until the twenty first birthday, at which point he would have been transferred to an adult jail or prison for another fifteen years after that, in other words it even if he'd been found guilty as a juvenile judge Chapman and had not been removed from the case, he would be out of jail by now. He be free can happen in. However, we at a week after he made his decision, he was called by a fellow judge who told him that the judges above them had made it clear that unless he changed his opinion, he would be removed from the case. Yes have been earned, thank God for just checking in because she's, the only one who tried to stop this.

Train wreck, Judge Heffernan's response was. I would rather walk naked through Sullivan Station and change my opinion. Let them do what they have to do and he just sat back, and so the district attorney appealed the heifer decision and and asked that have been be removed. The Supreme Court sent it back to Judge Heffernan consider additional evidence, Judge Heffernen the district attorney presented Motion for recusal, asking judge, Heffernan step down, Judge Heffernan denied that he refused to step down and he said they would proceed with taking new evidence, as ordered by the Supreme Court and at which point the district attorney appealed the judge's denial

With his motion up to the Supreme Court, who had already considered had, he had asked already to have Judge Heffernan removed and the Supreme Court declined to do that, although they had been told that he was going to be removed, and so after. The second appeal and Judge Heffernan refused to voluntarily recuse himself the Supreme court ordered him off the case. You talk about the political aspirations. When you talk about the bug, judge should have for men in his friend an longtime colleague, Judge Soul had, spoken to him in a week later called again and said: listen, I we need you to change this week. They want you to change this to say right. Yet they still remain friends, but it should. It demonstrates an illustrates how important.

This was for the political aspirations of Riley the DA and the governor had other aspirations as well weld. This is Charter boat makes we claims. I just want to make a claim of. Did it. Your goal was not the person who was asking for suggesting that happen and should change his decision. He was scheduled, immediate super eight. He was judge happiness, immediate supervisor. He was the one who got the call from up about saying. Have him change his opinion and he told them they were friends. She said I'm not going to change my

judges all I think, applauded him for standing for standing his ground and saying I'm not going to do what they want done politically, because it's not it's wrong legally, yes, so judge. Those good guy is what I wanted to say. Right now. You also talk about again. Manipulation is why the word you use so these are. This is a strong word. Manipulation impropriety some of these things, that any other way of calling a travesty of justice, and also with this doctor, Richard Barnum, and something very interesting league be adding making a four One page report assessing the whether he can be rebuilt, stated Eddie O'Brien, but this addendum and then

so explain the actual manipulation that you describe with Riley and with this Barnum and what they want to do, and the the twist some information and try they do get it through with Hefferman, but they still always trying to get certain amount of information. Tell us about that manipulation, and what that information is that they've tried squeeze out of dubious sources. Uh that actually happened after happened in had made his decision, they immediately well. After the I'm sorry, it wasn't after they made decision was after first report. Noting that there was an alarming absence of motive here

mental illness- and it was a very confusing situation- We met with him and and told him, oh, oh! Well, then you don't know about the fact that that that He was questioned when some of this friends put a mailbox on fire, and you don't How about all the things that we've we should have told you about? That was a laundry list of things that he came forward with that. He had every opportunity to talk to Barnum about at any point during his three month investigation, but only after he

this report. If you determine that that these things should be shared with doctor bargain, they were completely. In my opinion, this is all my opinion based on what I, what I see is the evidence he gave Barnum a list of things that would be trouble for some, for instance, some allegations of watching women undress, and being concerned about whether or not downing was having a lesbian relationship with one of the one of her best friends or things. You know just things that were of.

So the no concequence or import or relationship to this case that he suddenly decided to throw in to the mix and essentially- he, the district attorney Riley had Barnum go in an interview all these people to give him these and none of those stories were ever proven to be true, and none of them were ever ever raised actual trial because they were not based in fact, so, both the that's the key. If he knows best basically trying to create a motive and that's what he was trying.

Do. But it's in Dr Barnum made it clear to me that that he felt that he had felt the political pressure of the case I mean it was in the newspaper every day everybody was talking about it. There was nothing positive, ever be printed about eighty l, everything was negative. It was all coming from the quote: unquote, police sources and data sources, and things like that. Nothing was coming out of the eighties side to to to to say the things that I'm saying now, for instance, show the public view- and I think I pointed this out when I showed that virtual

the there was only one person in a pool of two hundred and seventy five people who were considered for jury duty in this taste that had not heard about this case. Thirty three percent of those people had already decided he was guilty and had to be excused without a piece of evidence being heard. The case

against him was a foregone conclusion. It has been tried in the press by that point. I s Barnum, about that, and- and I asked him about why he changed his opinion, because in his addendum to his report, which was twice as long as his original report, he decided no Eddie O'Brien, wasn't amenable to rehabilitation and that just never sat right. I mean that felt the need that he was. He was pitcher waiting to their political pressure that he was feeling he was the director of a court clinic. At that point he was a government. Employee center

He said to me that, yes, he felt the political pressure. Basically, he changed his opinion because by the time this eighty- which we got to this point in the preceding Eddie was now seventeen years old, not fifteen. When he first met him and he would be aging out of the juvenile system, eighteen now, so that he did that if there was, there was no point to talk about rehabilitation, because by the time he was a dull trial took place, he would be too old to be in the juvenile system. So I mean I just I asked him.

Why did you just say that? Why didn't you just say you know, I don't need to write an addendum. I can just tell you that there's no system that can provide rehabilitation if he needs rehabilitation in the time that he has left in the juvenile system. And he said that's a very good point. Maybe that's what I should have said because, essentially it raised the whole course in the case, because once he wrote that addendum Heffernan refused to accept that addendum into evidence and that's what started the appeal process and that's what the Supreme Court remanded the case for to say, the judge Heffernan- should consider Barnums addendum. That's why it got sent back And I believe that the the judges in authority were

hoping that happen in would quietly step away voluntarily, and he was not going to do that. He was not going to betray his moral. Stance that he had made the right decision and I'm not going to capitulate to political power. Now you talk about DNA in one thousand, nine hundred and ninety six being in its. Infancy in comparison to now and Dave developments in the turn of the century. What was the forensic? evidence other than what could be explained away by video Brian story of touching her I'm touching this and touching that you talk about Dna under JANET's fingerprint fingernails. What tell us about all the dna this is. The evidence is very strong. Tell us what the DNA evidence was the forensic evidence was the d,

in a forensic evidence is for Eddie's. Dna was completely consistent with his story that his dna was found on those fingerprints, and every completely consistent with the story. He told after right after the crime, when he was two weeks later, that he told what really happened: and he admitted that he had seen this guy and that he had run from the scene. He stayed in jail even tell his parents 'cause. He was so afraid for the safety and it. Finally, after two weeks he told them- and he said, listen, I go in there, but anyway, that all of the dna that was found that was attributed built heading was consistent with his story.

Clearly consistently distorting the dna under JANET's fingernails Eddie is excluded as the crime your sources that DNA there's a dna of JANET Ann Another dna unidentified dna, Bond the alleged murder weapon, the alleged hilt of the nice that they found the metal piece Eddie was completely excluded as it contributed to DNA on that. But there is a unidentified male dna on that held and JANET down. Downing's dna, so he is not tide to the murder. Weapon by DNA is not tide to under then it's fingernails, which is the first source. So DNA that they looked for because that's what she fought for her life with um, they didn't even

TEST the DNA under her fingernails until right before at the adult trial. I think well, I don't know. I don't know why my my opinion again is they didn't do it because they knew it would not be eddies, and they wanted to wait until the as possible moment before they revealed that that DNA was not hers and their expert witness testified that it basically in her opinion? The dna was inconclusive, which is not allowed into evidence if it's inconclusive it's allowed evidence, so it never should have gone in if it was inconclusive. There's definitely in a viable dna that is not Eddie's on the murder weapon. Now you mentioned Gina and her finally getting to speak and VIC,

key and berry. But despite all of this, what is the conclusion in adult court? Before we talk about your interviews with Eddie doing correspondence with him tell a little bit about what's the result of this trial. Despite what you just mentioned,. The the DNA evidence, just never and the evidence that way it was. First of all, there was a a big failure of his defense counsel at trial. He never. He never had the any of these exhibits or pieces of evidence tested independently, and so he too could have had the dna under JANET fingernails tested, but did not so there

There is some blame to go around what what happened at trial and would happen to trial. Was that the evidence did not come in that clearly so that the dna evidence, as I said, the juries jurors were overwhelmed with it and and and it was it- was very confusing. His own attorney did not capitalize on the Fact that Eddie's dna was absent from the two most important places that it should have been found. Either in his opening or is closing statement. He alluded to it in his cross examination. But frankly, it appeared to me that he didn't understand that Eddie's dna was excluded,

from this he got the reports very late and I don't think he was completely familiar with them or what and that he didn't have his own expert to explain them to him. The only real thing that came out at trial was that there was on the hilt of the nice, the dna was identifiable and it was not eddies as to JANET's fingernails. That was never really an issue at trial. It just slipped by and slipped in as inconclusive, but in fact the report is clear that he is excluded. It's not inconclusive and I didn't have the report at the time. I didn't know that I didn't know that until I read it this year

when I was writing the book. His parents didn't know that until I read it this year when I was reading the book, many of these things were complete revelations to me, and I had. Then, with the case since the very beginning, I did not understand that I had no access to the reports. I wasn't given the reports or the evidence and I trusted that his attorney was doing what he needed to do and was presenting whatever evidence in Eddie's favor there there was, but in fact there was a lot of evidence in Eddie's favor, including the fact that there were there was communication Between the district attorney's office and the laboratory, where they did a a preliminary dna test on the hilt of the knife a year for his trial.

German eddies dna was not on it and he stopped all further testing until further notice, but didn't tell the defense that they had done a preliminary test, and then they told the trial judged that they had just sent that built out for testing a couple of weeks into July of before his Sept trial, when in fact that had that had been sent out there sing a year before and they knew his dna was not on it. It was not going to come up on it. So the fine report issued saying his dna was not on it, but that was news to his defense attorney. It was only me comparing the report and the correspondence between the lab and the district attorney's office that, I realized they learned that,

is DNA was not that a year before that, and then they ordered all further testing sit deceased so that they didn't have to produce a report, and that would have gone into the juvenile case. Let's we've got just a few and it's to tell this story left in this interview, you interview you start off his guardian ad litem, but you yes, relationship morphs into something much more. He grows up litter Lee physically and psychologically tell us briefly the correspondence who he is, who is big and what your relationship is and how he is dealing with life without the possibility of parole. Before we talk about the one bright spot in this story, which is the innocence project,.

You have to meet Eddie. You have to meet him, he's a remarkable remarkable kid. You have to understand that he's been. In jail for twenty, almost twenty two years and he only on the outside for fifteen years. He was a baby when he went into prison and He has been incarcerated every day since then he has. He had. He was going into his sophomore year of high school when he was incarcerated. He missed high school. He is self educated he has spent his year in jail educating himself through voracious reading. He reads tons of history books. He is he stays. Current

political issues and he's very, very opinionated about political issues, and Anne has very strong feelings about things. He he's got a wonderful sense of humor. When I first met Eddie, he was a little kid. He blushed every time I talk to him. Ok cheeks have turned bright red, he would stare at his sneakers, he would smile, you know he just he was a child. He was, he was such a young adolescent. You know with no experience whatsoever in the ways of the world is neighborhood was a pretty protected little neighborhood and you know it and he had a little group of friends and he hung with since he was a toddler. You know his life was completely different. He was in best rated with violent juveniles who, add murdered, and

who would murder again he was with kids who had mental health problems, learning disabilities uh all kinds of behavioral issues, that's where he grew up, that's where he learned an you know that's who we had to socialize with Ann. And he he does call jail the real world he knows with. Real world is in the real world? Is his friend or his friends and his family outside of prison. They have stuck by him completely for the last twenty one plus years he talks to his parents every single day on the phone I think twice a day

He speaks to his siblings every day, one or more of them he's a godfather to his nieces and nephews, not nephews notice. You share he. He, the babies, come to visit him, they known as Uncle Eddie he he you know he he has just done everything he can to remain as socialized as he can with people from the outside. He deals with life. The way you have to You have to take it one day at a time. Nothing is guaranteed and he said that was the most important. Lesson he learned when he arrived in adult prison. Some old time.

Took him under their wing and they taught him. How did you tell it and that's what he said to me? He said of it. I would have made if they hadn't thought of this. How did you tell it? He he's patient. You know he is our funny. He he light loves to joke around. He loves to call he loves to find call me out when I'm wrong. And, and- and you know needle me about it- he argues with me some she gets angry with me. I don't agree with him. Sometimes he You know he's a normal kid and he's not a kid. Now he's a man he's thirty six years old he's got gray, hair he's not that little kid anymore

He knows he's very very why so wise he's so much wiser than I was at thirty six and he was so much younger at fifteen. Then I was at fifteen, it's unbelievable, but he said he's just a wonderful guy. He proudly proudly cause suffer Roman Catholic. He belongs to a rosary group. He goes to mass every Sundays, never stop doing that. These are not things he does because he hopes to get parole, someday 'cause. He knows that's not going to happen for him. He does these things, because this is what makes his life worth living just to wrap up what The innocence project was interested in this case.

What is the status of the case for them? What is it for Eddie O'Brien, those the it's called the innocence program? It's a different is a state program that is very much aligned with the national program, which is called the innocence project. This is called the innocent program and he Eddie has Eddie. Has a team of lawyers that he's working with an they are actively working with him, and it certainly is a ray of hope for years. He's had really not know, representation he's never filed. Anything he got a direct appeal automatically 'cause everybody who sentenced to life without parole gets an automatic appeal that ca,

only thing he's really filed. He has many many many, a pellet, very, very strong, a pellet issues in that legal issues that that will be Bro. To, like I'm sure by his legal team and they're working very hard at that as we speak. So it's an open case and- and you know, I would I I I just can't wait until there is some but some more movement- and I I would love to see the case. The investigation reopened, because I don't I want to know who, who is it that killed Jenna do morning and I would hope that her family wants to know that, and I know that they've been convinced that this Eddie must be. The the true murderer because he was convicted and because they were told that, but they weren't told all of the things that I

discovered when I went through the entire file, and I I think that JANET downing deserves that much respect that that we would find her real killer and bring her real killer to justice. Now that may or may not free Eddie, there are lots of stories of people confessing Two murders that other people are doing time for and the court still not letting them out. You know it's a very: are contrary an uphill situation, trying to undo a wrongful conviction, but I I have every confidence in the world that that's going to happen in this case. I know that, because you know I I know Eddie and I know Eddie can stick with something until the right thing happens and he

I just believe you know. I believe that this is going to happen and I believe he is going to be be returned to a normal life and if I didn't believe that I would have a really hard time putting my head on the pillow every night. Now before we let you go. This is a wild blue press release and uh for those that might want to contact you or see some other other work. Do you do website tells how people might contact you or fear of the work? Yes, the I have a website called the politics of murder, dot com, the politics of murdered. Also Margo NASH, dot com and the most material that I could find including other writings that I've done an uh and reviews of the book. You can find that

www dot wildbluepress dot com under the author profile. Well, I want to thank you very much Margo for coming on and talking about this expos, the politics of murder, fascinating story. Thank you very much and you have a great night. Thank you Dan for having me thank you. Steeped in luxury, driven by innovation? It's how we do business at Genesis of Willow Grove. It's our mantra, the phrase we can't help, but repeat it's our promise that I Genesis of Willow Grove will serve every customer as exquisitely as Genesis, DAS, steeped, in luxury, driven by innovation, its genesis of Willow, Grove on Eastern Road in Willow, grove and online, at Genesis of Willow Grove dot com hurry in for an offer as exceptional as our vehicles.

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