NOTORIOUS SAN FRANCISCO-Paul Drexler | True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers Transcripts

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top talk. Radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers, crime, history, room murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. San Francisco city, founded in part by criminals, was Once one of the most dangerous cities in America, H, Barbary Coast was called a unique criminal

district that was hi. I'm Jay Farner CEO of Quicken Loans, America's largest mortgage lender. Let's talk credit card debt for a minute. If you feel you're carrying too much of it, you're, not alone the average household in the. U S carries over eight thousand dollars in credit card debt, ready for some good NEWS with a cash out refinance from Quicken loans. You can quickly and easily put some of the equity in your home to good use by paying off a lot of that high interest credit card debt. A great way to take cash out is with our thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine, nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken to learn how taking cash out with a thirty year fixed mortgage might be the right solution for you and for a record nine years in a row. Jd power, his right Quicken loans highest in the nation in customer satisfaction for primary mortgage origination call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot. Com for getting our work for mission is a g part account rates of exchange at one point, two: five percent fee to receive the discount rate, all the cost information in conditions, people having like license in all fifty states and what number thirty thirty the scene of more viciousness and depravity. But it does us more glamour

than any other area on the american continent. San Francisco notorious brings back the glamorous depravity and wire atmas that made it between premier location for murder, thrillers like the maltese Falcon, Vertigo and Zodiac. This book contains more than twenty compelling tales of serial killers, deadly women, con men, masters of escape, skate, an unsolved trees. San franciscan criminals were as colorful as the city they inhabited take William Thorensen, a murderous millionaire who hit the nation's largest private armory in his Pacific Heights Mansion then Isabella Martin, the murderous queen of grudges, who tried to poison an entire town or even Mcnabb and Lloyd Samsel. The yacht bandits who use the luxurious sloop as a getaway vehicle for their dozens of bank robberies. Most of these on you

cool cases, are largely unknown and have never appeared in book. Form included are cases that are still mysteries today in booting the mysterious tale of the Zodiac Killer, with the new analysis and a startling new fee free on the murder. The book they were featuring this evening is notorious San Francisco, true tales of crime, murder and passion, with my special guest journalist and author Paul Drexler welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Paul Drexler yes. Thank you very much it's nice to be here. Thank you very much for joining us incredible collection. This certainly is now tell our audience a little bit about your back and in true crime, and how you came to write notorious San Francisco. Oh sure I I've been writing about true crime for a long time, and I came to say-

Francisco in nineteen eighty four and through one of my pieces, I got to be good friends with Kevin Mullen, who is the Ex deputy police chief for San Francisco and he wrote a number of books and he had been collecting these things for decades. We collaborated a number of things. She he probably knew more about San Francisco crime than anyone else hey, and I have inherited his his collection and its files, which has been a big help in terms of you know, finding cases and I've been doing a lot of interviewing of ex cop to things like that. So basically, the Bay area has been my main area of focus and it's a great, a great area to collect interesting crimes right now. Let's get right into the collection here with the story about rural Nelson.

And you talk about the background of real Nelson eight born in eighty and ninety seven tell us about this. As you write it, you talk about, there couldn't be a mom, a more apt recipe for basically for disaster You said he was born in eighteen. Ninety seven tell us about his mother and his father and earliest upbringing. Sure well, his his mother died of syphilis when he was ten months old send a few months later. His father also died at the same disease, and you know in terms of creating a serial killer or psychopath. Venereal disease can definitely add to that. The and he lives with his grandmother and aunt, and they were very strict. Pentecostal christian Christians,

and they were always. You know railing about the evils of six and Earl was kind of a psychotic prodigy. He was expelled from primary school at the age of seven and he had this kind of strange behavior. He he would talk to invisible people. He would quote Bible, packs passengers about the great beast and then he would also peek at his cousin Rachel, while chicken dressed now he developed he wasn't a big man, but he had large hands and tremendous upper body strength. In fact, he could walk on his hand for blocks now when he

ten. He was hit and dragged by a streetcar which cracked his skull and put him in a coma doctor, didn't think he'd survived and now that's another. A surprisingly high percentage for psychopaths have experienced serious head injuries as they were growing up right, so he left school at fourteen the number of manual. He he also acquired venereal disease in the province of the Barbary Coast and by nineteen,

It's been it's important. He then the Navy and he's been in Napa State Mental Hospital and yet the state he he kept escaping and then he'd go back to Napa State and finally, the doctors there just threw up their hands if he hadn't improved at all, but they said he is better and, and they just you know, let him go and they they said he was improved and you know he spent the rest of his life, proving his doctors wrong by. You write that in nineteen twenty five, the finally discharged him saying he was, as you write, improved for lack of better.

Better prognosis. They said he was improved now in nineteen, twenty six February, 20th a woman named Clare Annuminas, sixty years old, and you write as well that after he got out of this prison ar pardon me out of the hospital he married. You know, strangely enough, he married this woman that was fifty eight years old is pentecostal spinster. He had these on we'll sexual desires or needs. She was not interested he left that relationship. Now we get the February twenty six 20th, one thousand nine hundred and twenty six tell us what happens where this Earl Nelson is in cities in the position to meet Claire a Newman. Sure, well, there was a landlady Mean Clara Newman.

Who was showing her attic apartment at her at her house, and he came in to look at the place now, two hours later her neck You came back and found her strangled and violated body in the in the basement near the oil for us. And it is also a few weeks later, the same thing happened to lower It was a sixty five year old, landlady in San Jose and both of the in both of the cases the women were sexually attacked after death. So early was a necrophiliac, and this is these: these killing started what ended up being a nationwide.

Panic, and he was at known as the strangler at this point and buy a few weeks later. He killed. Third person on Dolores Street in San Francisco and they started to see the headlines where they say the San Francisco police have had no one like him to contend with in the whole history of the city. So. He strangled another woman in Santa Barbara few weeks later and took her jewelry And you know more descriptions of him surfaced. I mean people saw him, but no one was really

think carefully and they they knew that he was kind of average size to get these watery blue eyes piercing stare and which they called the ghastly smile on his face and newspapers the call in the dark strangler or the dark fiend. At this time you write about yeah a break in the case in August and again that this yes here his grip this community on that they find a person named for the browns. They pick them up as a vagrant in needles. California, what happens and why do they think this is a break in the case. Well, I think it's a break in the case in in you know it's it's really hard when the serial killers killing people he doesn't know and and just sort of appears and disappears, but they had a witness. Is that this guy, William Franny, who was fireman and he identified

and add the strangler- has has said that he saw him attack this woman? Mrs Russell, it was a kind of an unusual situation because he he saw the attack on MRS Russell at the peak through the hole in the door, so to reproduce those condition. They put brown in a room when they had training here through the keyhole, That's how we identify it. Brown and you Know- Brown headed history of epilepsy and tax, the police, chief and district attorney were convinced. They had the right guy, but the guy did not meet the physical characteristics and then more and more, they talked to him yeah,

the more more. They wondered about his mental condition as the days went on his whole story unraveled and he was sent to mental hospital, and you know the search continued, and that became Anyone who moved into town or had a dark complexion was from another country would just unknown was automatically a suspect. A few weeks later in Santa Cruz, they. The rest of this stocky foreigner and they were a Lynch MOB was threatening and told Merton Newman. Who is the guy? Who is the nephew of the first woman killed, came down and said? No, that's not the guy. So these continued Nelson returned to San Francisco. He strangled this

woman who had a house for sale and he left her naked body under the bed. The next day, though, there is another woman, this is Murray, who was eight months. Pregnant was approached bye, bye and there's something about him that put her at at just made her nervous- and this is also you know, Good thing to remember that if you have a bad feeling about someone, listen to it so the whole time she was showing him through the house and ingesting all kinds of questions about its construction. But she stayed six to eight feet away

And then, finally, he was going to leave. She turned to open the door and he attacked her and she fought back. She raped her nails against his face and made it to the street. He fled, but she was able to give the police a very clear description of him, and you know one of the reasons that he was asking all about the house, part of his method of uh trading was, he would start asking about the house, so we could get the landlady downstairs away. Anyone else. You know we'd, ask about the fairness of this and that and once he got her into the furnace room, that was it that's when he he did eight killer. You right about that yeah. Sorry, silly Your reading about it and said you were you read about the media being very confident once they had that

description. Oh yeah speeches clutch is the San Francisco Chronicle. Not one of their better predictions. They, they said description of, strangling now, complete arrest, search they were saying, was overly optimistic. It took about fifteen more bodies and a year and a half for this to happen, and then he started going east. Where did he go? You talk about Oregon and Washington. Yeah was the they went to. Ours are killing and killed a woman city. Sorry, and then he started going east. He he killed a woman in Council Bluffs IA. He killed a woman can

city and then the next day he killed and raped a woman and her eight month old son. Then he disappeared again and by this time the press to come up with a new name, Graham, which was the gorilla killer, because he had very large hands and kind of his posture was kind of a black and it was in all the newspapers, in fact, in Philadelphia we also struck the future date. A three page. You know, column titled how to escape from the strangler with photos. You know some show you what to do. Then he started going West, he went to Buffalo killed, someone killed two women and destroyed and he killed a woman in Chicago and by this time

Police were after him everywhere. He after you know, remember that pretty much every city he did this. It would be this huge search of the entire populace, but by this time it was getting pretty hot for him, so he decided to go into Canada June. Fifth, you read about Julia this, because this acceleration, his friends, he is killing friendly, may third May Thirtieth June first June third, now June fifty hits likes to Winnipeg Canada and, as you write it's the third largest city in Canada at that time gets a job as a construction labor. What's his alias and again, what does he do once he's? In a

other country and on the run from US officials sure he had a number of aliases. This one was Roger Wilson and the other thing to remember is that he knew the Bible and he posed as a very religious man and in fact he told this woman. I want quiet surroundings where it can reflect and man with Christ, and it's hard need to worry about nothing else. She was very impressed. This is obvious to abide with his piety, but two days later, this fourteen year old girl who was selling artificial flowers on the street disappear, weird the next day Nelson went to another rooming house and he asked for room. He said he didn't have any money, but that he do odd jobs to pay. Now, when her husband came back, she was missing. Emily was missing.

Landlady and a few hours later, he discovered her body underneath their best, as this was really when police really third mobile mobilizing. Maybe they realized that he was in the city. And they knew more about him, so they they started. Checking every boarding, house and. When they reach MRS Hill? She described your tenant Roger Wilson as a short dark religious man, and they searched his room and found the decaying body of lower calendar under his bed. So this this really kind of exploded everything you talk about the national response in Canada to this and the

Use of this broadcast throughout the country, but right about that, the strangler heads west to the capital of the neighboring province, which is Regina and he rents a room from MRS Row. What does he do in Regina while authorities still think he somewhere in Winnipeg and they're, looking everywhere yeah

So then it's a big country so he's moving around MRS Row had a nine year old, daughter and the next morning. He he he bought her an ice cream cone. He tried to lure her into going into the side street with him, and then she made hello, definitely the greatest decision of her life by refusing to do that. Obviously, that could save her life, but by this time he had been tracked into Regina and searches were pouring into the city, so he went back to Manitoba and headed South leave. They figured that he was going to head back to the United States and try to get training, so he's decided both forty miles north of the border, biological and you you describe that. That is just a little small town and he's alerted that there's a stranger in town. What happens in this exchange between this constable Enteral Nelson yeah? So this constable? It was this guy possible, great Kalani, which is a town of a thousand very close to to the border, and there was a train station in the town. So Constable great talk to this guy

gave his name is virtual. Virgil Wilson, he agreed to come to the police station and he was so relaxed that great could hardly believe he was a wanted man, but great took away his belt the shoes it sucks and locked himself, an handcuffed into the bars, and then he went to the next room to get a phone, and he called Inspector Smith was in Winnipeg was heading. Was the overall head of the search he called Wilson and he he told him. The name is Alias and Wilson said: don't let him out of your sight I'll, be there tomorrow morning in Inspector Smith, assembled fifty police to go with him on a special train show my grey gets back. He fell. On the cell door, open in handcuffs dangling from the bar Nelson had picked the locks with the mail file that he found on the floor,

So you know the towns gripped by panic. Most of the women and children spent the night in a church guarded by dozens of armed men. It was a five hundred men posse going from house to house, but he spent a peaceful night hidden in the loft of reformers born just a block from the police station. Incredible and yeah. I'm sorry go ahead so the next morning you say that they had been staking out train stations because they felt that that's the way he would get back into the US where they correct in what happens at this train station the next morning? Ok! Well, you know he gets out of his hiding place and he makes a break for the train station

and the train is pulling into town Adam other people seemingly chasing a guy grabbed him, but he broke free to train to his opened and he unfortunately for him the train was train commandeered by inspectors Smith through fifty police report of the training and the game of golf. They took him back on the train and headed back to Winnipeg, and- and you know there was a there- was a crowd that would very much I'd like to mention, but they they did get back to Winnipeg and after some question he admitted that he was once around also.

You read about the extraordinary search for the dark strangler. You say it is occupied more police in more cities than any other case in history, San Francisco, San Jose, Portland, Kansas City, Philadelphia, Detroit Chicago and then Winnipeg. What was his fate in nineteen? Twenty, eight in Winnipeg. But which is full well it. Finally, they finally got him and he was hung in Winnipeg after killing about twenty three women, most of them landlady. So I would say,

After that, it is still in, ladies all of the western hemisphere, we're very grateful. Absolutely absolutely now. Let's talk about another story from this collection: the grandma from Hell and now she's opened with this. With the detective John Kaufman investigating the disappearance of a Santa Rosa Motel owner Mildred Arneson tell us about John Kaufman's encounter with the grandma from Hell. I have a Kroger yeah yeah I have a Kroger was, and I I would call the recycle pants thank about. She was here. She'd looked very I'm suspicious. She was certain middle age, sure guys very dowdy clothes squinting tonight, but she loves to talk. Is this cascading stream of words and sentences? She talked about a psychic shoes very into spiritualism. She talked about how good she was a business and also her health. She was always something wrong with her had to at this time she was talking about. He was in a bus accident, San Francisco and- and she was crippled- you know. So, if you talk to her, you do you think you know here's this woman practically on the last leg and she'd say these crazy things. But you know you sort of think she was a harmless person. It's like you know the scariest movies lease that that that I've seen the ones that move all of a sudden, everything's normal and then the next minute you're Oracle com who seems like such a nice guy growing fangs. He does, and this was either Kroger. You know she should be very sweet and then the next minute she.

Got a gun, pointing your heart, she's, threatening your life. You know that she means it so often talks to her. He was investigating the disappearance of a motel owner in Santa Rosa and this woman Mildred arms. She was a a real estate investor who owned this motor home, called the Rose city motor home with her Ex husband, and we had no. There was a rush to cruise ships and she told her family that she was going to South America with another spiritualist thing. I am the law so when Calvin coffin

went to the motel he found. I belong was running it an she. She denied that she was ever going to accompany million. She said it moved to somewhere in South America, and you know she claimed to be a psychic. He was suspicious, but she showed the deed that transferred the motel and it was genuine. So there was nothing much to do at that time, but Mildred hasn't had a family of. Sisters and brothers and they kept calling police and they kept, they were very suspicious. They they got a a letter supposedly from Mildred that that appear to limit it to be like a a phony and uh. I have a hurt J, who is? No good. Husband disappeared a few months late.

So- and I never had this wild story about where he went and they continue to investigate, but they really couldn't do much until uh. I've had a dispute with the guy tried to collect overdue bill.

And this this really reveals a lot about who he was and is a guy who sold water softening systems and she Vincent Cologne or money. And finally, he asked for his money back and she took Mara Wild Goose Chase to all these places, which she said she had money, but whenever she got there there was some other reason. So, finally, he goes back to the motel and that he did a very smart thing. You he was with his wife and he told his wife wait about ten minutes and then come and get me so he goes into our office and she pulled a gun from under the desk.

Pointed at his heart and she says sign this receipt that says paid in full and you know, if you don't, will carry you outta here feet first and no one will ever know what happened to you at that point. His wife knocked at the door and he was he was able to get away and police were called, but she just disappeared uh. And they learned that I belong was not her real name. Real name was Iva Kroger and she

been married three times and she had been a grifter. So that's that's who she was and, as you know, she she was just a real con artist. She she would tell people she had leukemia she's going blind, she get. You know if you get money for various things and she was suing the bus company. You write about that she was on the run from insurance investigators and their creditors and yell. They were staking out race, horse tracks and Astrolog Yrs to try to find her and finally tracked down her son in Fort Myers Florida. What did her son tell police about his mother yeah? This is a scary story. He said his mother ship came to him and she hadn't contacted in years, and she said that she was a wealthy widow and she owned a motel in San Diego and

We offer some job at his motel and then she said. Well, you know one might take. Your kids were two boys three and four for little overnight trip uh and he he agreed and then seeing the boys disappeared and there's this nationwide search uh and her husband had no right here where, where, where she went, you're one of the things about the book is, I have a lot of hype. I talk about the dresses to places where these crimes happened and most of those places is still. There and most of the people who live in those places have no idea what happened because so long ago, so the police were suspicious. They they

heard that she had hired someone to dig a hole in the basement of her house bran. They got a search warrant and they began excavating the basement and they discovered the body of major Arneson and next to him they discovered the body of Mildred Arneson and then,

when they arrested Ralph on suspicious inverter and then her grandchildren was found, wandering the streets in Oakland. She just abandoned him, so there was an all points bulletin out for her and there was a a couple in San Diego, a couple of Jehovah's witnesses who met her and they noticed who resemblance to the photographs in the newspapers about this case, and they told the FBI who captured her when they do arrest her. Despite all this evidence,.

Despite the bodies buried in the home and else insistence that he didn't know anything about this whatsoever, him being a much older of seventeen years older than her. What did you say in response to these charges? What was your excuse? Yeah? Well, this is the thing you could never. You know she had an answer for everything. You know she says a black male was responsible. Somehow, or you know, black man that broke into the house. These two people- obviously it didn't it- didn't convince the police and you know she and her husband would charge with murder and it's,

You know it's really hard to claim that you're innocent when the the bodies are buried in your basement uh. So the defense was going with that she's not legally guilty because she's crazy and she wants told someone. If you act crazy, you can get away with anything because people will think you're eccentric an that became a courtroom strategy. I mean, I don't know, there's ever been such a crazy trial. You know, because normally you know you you, the judges in charge and people talk when they're spoken to. She just said whatever she wanted. Whatever she wanted, she interrupted. She argued with witnesses. She threw things she sang. She fell asleep in the middle of trials. She did all these crazy things.

To convince the jury that that she was crazy. You write that in nineteen sixty six depress she had some attention in one thousand nine hundred and seventy one. She got some attention again for writing poetry from prison. He he what about parole and yet in seventy five. Yeah well, you know she was originally sentenced to death and then it was changed to life imprisonment and the judge said I don't. This person should never be released, but she was she. You know she at he is in prison. She committed,

people that she's legally blind she's. You know she writes poetry. She does all these things and to endear herself, and after about fourteen years in nineteen, seventy five because of good behavior in the California sentencing laws. She was paroled. She became a scientologist and took classes in sociology. She said that she wanted to be a nurse that was always she used to poses as a nurse that was her favorite dodge. So she goes to Nursing school Anne. She used to visit her brothers in Florida now, one thousand nine hundred and eighty six. She meets this nurse on the bus and she steals nurses, identification.

And get this here's a jobs in Florida he would did have your criminal career did not end there as well. You talk about threats to her nephews business partner as well. Yeah yeah at her nephews, nephew son drowned in a swimming pool, and I have a you know. She was psychotic really and, and she blamed that the sun's death on her nephews business partner. You know, on the grounds that if he hadn't been a work, he would do that to the bat, the death and she called her husband's business card and who were her nephews, business partner and threatened to kill him and.

He said if you don't believe me check the records and killed before so she even contact the cop into giving or lift when, when the police finally realized who she was, she had already left the area and yes, she was. She was cited in Santa Rosa years later, but no one she really Pretty much disappeared and as they only found out about her death, she died in Massachusetts in the year two thousand and the only found out about that after she died. So who knows what she did before she died, but she was quite an extraordinary yeah criminal person. Absolutely, let's use this as an opportunity. Stop

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shopping online. Another incredible story in your collections of stories from San Francisco is one called manhunt. The jolt ankle story- and this is a go back in time- a little bit to September, one thousand nine hundred and twenty three and a couple guys Joe Tanko twenty four years old and Floyd Hall

twenty one tell us a little bit about their backgrounds and how they eventually meet up and then begin this incredible crime spree sure well at at at this time. They were, they were robbers and they fatally shot the police chief of San Bruno and they were caught later when the tanker wrote a letter to his brother, in which he admitted to doing forty robberies into killing the police chief. Now his brother, as a good citizen, gave this to police.

Told police for the rest of his life flow tango, threatened his brother's life, but they were very young guys and they pled guilty, so they weren't. Given the death penalty, they received a life sentence. Instead, now you talk about them on route to San Quentin. They made their first escape. Attempt tell us about that. First escape attempt, and if that dissuaded him from pursue escape again, no there was there was a a a a share of so what they were doing and stopped them. Now. You know skateboarders, sir, would you know it's it they're very glamorous, because they're doing things that are so

difficult and being foiled didn't did nothing to deter them and in fact, a year later they picked a lot. This is in San Quentin and they slid down the June grow and the mall police in posse search for them. They broke into a number of stores in Petaluma and Heels Burke. They they got food guns supplies and then the one on this wild crew. Crime Spree. So they they carjacked Santa Santa Rosa rancher. On April fourteenth they held up a sacrament cab driver. They had a big shootout with Sacramento police. And then a few days later up police force taking out the highways around Sacramento. They rob this guide store, killing him in the process, hey

and police from the neighboring communities flooded in, but they couldn't be found. They robbed a couple of cab drivers kidnap this guy and it's four year old daughter and got into a gunfight with police and they severely Woon did a police officer. And then they drove onto the car right out of gas and they fled on foot and there was a massive manhunt. It was, I think, the largest manhunt in California history, one thousand armed men following them. Well,

Now, what's the next thing we do in May Inver and involving a carjacking again what with a car jacked this time, all this time? Yeah I mean this time they carjacked a US mail truck in the town of gold and then made just drive down the mountain to Sacramento and they got a flat tire and the band in the truck and they disappeared into the mountain area. Two hundred deputies surrounded the area. I mean the big dig police well crazy because they put so many resources. He couldn't understand how these guys kept slipping through them, but take one all still one of the car and he came back to Sacramento on on May fourth, there's a

reward, you say six thousand dollars at that time in the twenties. What do hall and what do they decide to do hall in Tango? To avoid well aid? I decided you know that they probably should split up. You know the chances would be better. There was a single

and what happened to Hall was. You know he was looking for a place to hide. He talked to guide an ex con, the new and he was hiding in that country room, but the con turned me into the police for the reward money tango disappeared and by this time they were just you know, list heroes is certainly celebrities and and and Hall, with who's going on trial got all those great press. You know captured desperadoes sobs mention of this family is is one of the Senate and they keep searching every rooming house in Sacramento but Tango close to San Francisco. He yeah he carjacked, he kidnaps a guy.

Golden gate park the guy drives to North Beach and tank, who jumps out and disappears again, but meanwhile, Hall is indicted for the murder, for the murders, committed, he's, convicted and sentenced to death, but the case is appealed and uh. He gets a new trial and somehow, in one thousand nine hundred and twenty six he's acquitted of the shooting of none well Now you talk about the ladies Man Hunt for Joe Tango, yeah and you say, religion, Denver, yeah, he's living in Denver he's got a girlfriend there who doesn't know his real identity. He is telling her that he's in San Francisco Businessman- and I suppose you could say that's true- only those businesses robbing murder

you know that here I mean it is there's a whole headline right tackle invades like one person invade the whole city. So but after going living in Denver and and doing all these criminal things, he decides to go back to San Francisco in October, nineteen, twenty six to see his other girlfriend. Who knows who we really and in November on November thirteenth? There was this police sergeant, Vernon Van Nature, he's got this order to arrest this guy Willie Department discourages gang, had committed assault on on a man's wife, and this is at thirteen seventy three Mcallister Street, which is still there. So it didn't, you know, expect a lot of trouble, but it runs along with few other cops to block the other X. Six Casey said to make a run for it. So major that raises the window. He comes in the House department. You know, hands up, the building is surrounded, come up with your hands up and the Barden stands up and says I can't he's got me covered and as them nature of the cop enters the room he gets shot by Joe tanker who'd been hiding in the apartment and take those runs up the stairs and he comes up to stay.

He comes face to face with detective sergeant Rooney, who asked him to surrender. I wouldn't have done that, but anyway he asked him to surrender, tackles fires. He gets really in the stomach, but really fires back five times and it kills taken instantly and when the news of the shooting that out there were huge crowds in that twenty thousand people visited the car this office to the view tankers corks. Well, now you get back to haul being acquitted at the second trial or pardon me yeah. He has that second trial. So what happens amazingly at this second trial, and why yeah, what you think? Okay, this is it, but he he is a quick in the second trial. They they,

decide not to retry him. 'cause he's already serving a life sentence for the first murder right, so for the next ten years in the 1930s, he tries to escape every few years and he's caught, but gradually this is. This is where we get some one thousand nine hundred and fifty six. Now this is thirty years After the robberies and killings he's finally let out of prison on parole- and you know these- he had a lot of charisma and that's often true these guys, so he gets out of jail. And amazingly enough, this guy Hall, who kill the police chief,

feel that other guy shot committed a hundred, robberies, armed robberies. He gets a full pardon in nineteen. Seventy two with the help of the lobbyist, who fell under his charm and and was Ronald Reagan who gave in the card I'm sure we'll break in new. You know didn't know really his background, but you know he he he. Went to this. This place called the brass rail which is hang out the lobbyists and he a hangouts.

And within an hour, and everyone really likes him, and there goes he gets. He gets a full partner and eyes without a record quite extraordinary incredible. You talked about to that incredible, the exchange where he goes to that brass rail for an hour and charm. These people enough to get incredibly a full pardon from Governor Ronald Reagan. Incredible yeah, it's yeah I wonder what you said, but you know it there. Your cops, a great story to tell to the sole criminal, so I'm sure he had great presence as good. Looking guy You know, I think he just wow them, and they were, I think they found so interesting and really didn't think about what he

done over. It was so long ago. You know this is like a different person facing him, but whatever he said, it certainly worked. Tell us a little bit about Ethan, Mcnaboe and Lloyd, Samsel, the yacht bandits and what was it about this story that was so remarkable for you to include in this tell us a little bit about this pair sure, Mcnaboe and Lloyd sense. They were two of the most extraordinary men that I've Criminals that have ever read about it because they were brilliant, they were talented, they could do. You know they were expert sailors, Bay, expert writers. That could pretty much do anything. They could even make a gun at a spare part

And but there these two guys who would never go straight: they they that life, they like the craziness that went along with the fact in the command at the age of nine. He he was living in Deadwood, South Dakota and he was already playing hooky. He was living in a cave. He was, you know, committing little little burglaries. You know what the issue ninety get sent to reform school and she and.

SAM, so meet in nineteen twenty two, when they're both books sent to San Quentin for a number of bank robberies and they decide to partner up when they get out, which is about nineteen twenty six and they are very good at what they do. They are bank robbers and they bought a yacht with some, but there they were up to well over one hundred banks and the body on with that some of the money they made and then they pretended to be these wealthy yachtsman and they knew how to sail the yacht, and they would take me out to the city rob a bank get back on the yacht sail down the Pacific. He rob banks from Vancouver to San Diego. What was what was part of the lure or pardon me the charm of these two people once the media caught wind of this entire is duels adventures when they were, they were very suave, be with him great dressers. It was, will you know Lloyd sense all had something in real charisma because one of the people he rob. This

just around one thousand nine hundred and twenty two in fact the president of the bank, that he robbed that he personally held a gun to wrote to Samsung's father and said. Well, I don't think you know, I don't think he's really a criminal. He seems like it all. He gets a break, I'm sure he'll go straight, and you know it takes a lot of charisma too, to get someone on your side who you've pointed a gun at so they definitely had something and they were also, very, very smart, and they immediately, you know, decided to escape. They were not going to stay in in in jail and Lloyd, Samsung,

came up with one of the most amazing plans that I've ever heard of and what he did was he designed uh hiding space. It was about eight by ten feet that had food water even had a battery powered flashlight. An his idea was that they were going to hide in the print And then they figured okay, the you know the guards are gonna search like crazy. For a few days, then they'll figure, okay, these guys got out of prison and they're looking everywhere us for them and then coming when the heat's off a little bit. They will get out of here.

Hiding place in the skate and and to add to their. You know, odds the Bryant a couple of the prison officials to to let them out, but they were double crossed by these, Officials and after nine days at the prison officials leads the there that that the warden to where they were course they never said they've been, but they said. Oh, we just discovered this and then we just in time because they were almost dead from from lack. But they wish they were still there and they were, of course, beat men and put in for for a long time, but that did not stop them. After that they there was a plot that they had to someone to smoke a lot of guns

Finally, after about three attempts, they warden decided to separate them and they sent I'm Mcnabb to San Quentin and SAM Cilastatin in Folsom now that, but that didn't stop them from trying to escape separately. Did it no didn't in fact they the first the Samsung in the machine shop. I don't know how he did it, but he he We manufactured a working firearm and ammunition. I I I don't know if he made the ammunition and we got it, but he did definitely made to working firearms and he and this other guy uh decided you know to to escape, and they

I just plan to lure the warden into the building where they hold him and the warden felt that something was wrong and he refused to come in and he surrounded the place and when they were about to be captured, Samsungs partners just shot himself killed himself with the weapon that they had manufactured now a year after that Mcnaboe.

It's exactly the same thing. He had actually more geisinger gun made a number of guns. He had about ten people involved in the break, and while he was doing the break, he accidentally shot and killed a prisoner, and this was also will they they they. It was a foggy night and they were carrying this latter and he was dressed in a guard's uniform. The guard up in the tower didn't believe him and they were captured and because of there was a law that if you are involved in an escape and someone dies, it's a capital offense and he was sentenced to death. But in this last week he wrote he wrote a book that he gave to his lawyer and very cool character, and he you know he. He read a poem before was executed, and that was that's how we went. Would you have done for years after that, at you say that and then write the D.

Yeah the late the night before his execution sensible talk to reporters and they said they said letting wasted life, but I have a son, the six foot three and a hundred seventy pounds he's merry got two kids he's in the service. So I have let something good and he turned to the nearly one hundred witnesses. What did he do at that? Actually waiting that was interesting. He winked you know these days. They they had style. If nothing else, and if you know they were quite extraordinary people. Eighty eight, he there's a lot more than he did. He he managed to get out of the road

Crew when he was on during the war and and and visit his girlfriend but yeah they, they had a lot of guts and they had a lot of style, but they both were executed by the state Carroll Chessman actually running the death row at that time. They certainly do not have the will it's incredible you right to, about the skill sets of both of these people. Again, when we mentioned earlier about how some people theorize well that if they would have just had some opera trinity's, they would have led a life on an alternative are there criminal life but as it shows in this case they had quite a bit of skill set an despite that yeah yeah and this guy Willie Sutton, who was very famous bank robber, an escape artist, said

that you know I was never more alive than when I was robbing a bank. I loved everything about it, and even even if he got a big call a few weeks later, he starred casing the next one. It was a thrill. You know that they were that that they were after and then there was no way that they were going to stay law abiding. What didn't give them enough kicks. I want to thank you Paul for coming on and talking about the Toria San Francisco, true tales of crime, murder and passion. Do you have a website that people might take a look at it? This is book page tell us about that. Yes is, there is a website, it's called the crooks, tour and, and then my book as a website, it's called Saint Francis Gonna

tourist. You can get it on Amazon and I actually do occasional crime tours of San Francisco. So you can check the website for any future ones.

Also just want to ask about the fantastic trading cards yeah. Well, I've I've created these trading card this. I think it would be. You know nice to have cards like you know, like baseball cards, but also to the staff. So, for example, I have a a guy named chicken divine looking at its police record. He he was arrested. Seventy nine times in five years while and I figured out how many times he was arrested him many times he was convicted in came out with a crying average it and all of that they're there in this, these cards are the card. Our people are right about the book and there's a total of ten and you'll definitely learn about of a lot of interesting people, and I

say. I think three or four of them are women, so SF has a great tradition also of women murders course very proud of that. Also, yes, this absolutely again, I want to thank you very much Paul Drechsler for coming on and talking about notorious San Francisco, two tales of crime, murder and passion. You have a great thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you goodnight here.

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