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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, was Jason the monster who bludgeons his beautiful wife to death, leaving his toddler alone for hours to walk through her blood. If

so, would he get away with it to the outside? It's Jamie progresses, employee of the month to month in a row, leave a message at the paging me. It's me Jamie do not forget to buy lentils what lentil soup you're making for dinner will be sorely lacking by the way MRS Callaway says thanks for helping her bundle home and auto. She appreciates the actors they means, even though you kept using the word after opposing correctly, but the main thing is do not forget to buy. Was it something I propose the lentil soup sorry I'll call you back progressive casualty, insurance company and affiliates discounts not available in all states are situation slide. World Jason and Michelle Young lived a storybook life, an attractive couple with great jobs, a beautiful home, a precocious to you

call daughter and a baby boy on the way. Soon, after the twenty nine year, old pregnant mothers, brutally beaten body was discovered on their bedroom floor, a very different picture emerged of a marriage crumbling at its foundation of a meddlesome New York mother in law, who was running critique, left, Jason frustrated and angry have a thirty two year old man who behaved like a frat boy rebelling against adult responsibilities, murder on birch leaf DR documents, the gripping tale of a families marathon quest for justice, confounding crime scene evidence persistence of law. Enforcement officers and riveting courtroom combat the book to read featuring this evening is murder on birch leaf. Dr the true story of the Michelle young murder case with my special guests attorney and author Steven B Epstein, welcome to

Graham, and thank you very much for this interview, Stephen B Epstein. Thank you for having me. Thank you very much for this. I want to ask you how you came to be the author of murder on virtually drive. What was it about this story? Tell us the circumstances in which you happen to be, and one right murder on virtually drive. Well it it really was a light bulb. If any one day, a couple of years ago, I had kept up with this as someone living in Raleigh North Carolina following the news in this story about this murder that occurred in November of two thousand and six this on the news a lot. There were two different criminal trials, which I suppose we'll talk about during today's interview

and that the trials were covered a lot and as someone who's a lawyer, I was, of course interested. I knew the judge that was involved in the case. I knew some of the lawyers involved in the case, but I think what really drew me to this story, was that I shared some common pathways with the victim Michelle Young. She grew up in long island and used a computer in her high school to find her way to North Carolina to go to college. She wound up going to North Carolina State University in Raleigh. I pretty much the same thing. I grew up in long island and I used a computer in my high school to find my way North Carolina. I wound up going to the University of North Carolina, but I move to a place that was foreign, as did she. The color sure in the south is quite different than the culture in New York and I married a southerner and had to learn all of the things that were de

about the south and the culture in the south, and she did as well. Jason young grew up in Brevard North Carolina in the mountains, and there were a lot of culture clashes between Michelle and Jason in between their two families that were prominent the problems in their relationship that, ultimately, if you believe that Jason is the one who killed her ultimately led to him committing this despicable act. So there was a lot about this story that I was attracted to just as basically in a reader of newspapers and as someone who watched little bits of news here and there about this trial. And no one else had written this book. I think that was the thing that I eventually that eventually pushed He took a right. It is that I believe this, but this was a story that real, we needed to be told and that others around not only rallying around North Carolina but around the country would find to be a very fascinating, true crime story and that's,

so I decided to write the book, and certainly that was a great decision. You take the reader November third, two thousand and six and a phone ringing awaking Meredith Fisher and the call is from or the message is brother in law Jason Young- and this is her sister's husband, Michelle, tell us what that phone ringing means. Does he leave a mess? which does she talked to Jason Young personally, tell us about that phone call November. Third, two. So the book begins with the phone in Merida Fishers, Mary Fisher cell phone ringing in her bedroom waking her from a dead sleep at one thousand, two hundred and fourteen pm on November third, two thousand and six because she's asleep she doesn't answer. Eventually. She sets the phone down and listens to the voicemail, which is from

a brother in law, Jason, young, and what Jason Young says in that voice. Mail is that, but he had left some papers on the printer in his home on birch drive in Raleigh North Carolina at the time he departed for a business trip by car to Virginia and those papers that he said he left on. The printer were of auctions that were taking place on Ebay for coach purses and what he says is that he had intended to take those with him. On his this trip, because he was trying to figure out the perfect gift for Michelle call for their third wedding anniversary now mind you, this call was on November third, two thousand and six their third anniversary was on October tenth, two thousand and six a few weeks before. Nevertheless, does he really wants Meredith to

on the twenty minutes over to his home, pull those off of the printer and get them before his wife sees them because he didn't want them to spoil her surprise at that. He was thinking of getting her a coach purse for their anniversary and that's what eventually leads to Meredith heading to five thousand one hundred and eight birch leaf, Dr Home, that was shared by Jason, Young, Michelle Young and their two year old daughter Cassidy. Now what is Meredith fine when she pulls up there? Does she find anything unusual at the home, she she finds several things that are unusual before she even enters the home for one at that point, and it was about an hour later about one hundred and fifteen in the afternoon, the lights at the top of the brick pillars at the driveway edge? We still eliminated, which, being in the middle of the afternoon, didn't make any sense big. She noticed that the gate that cal

the backyard closed was open, which was odd because the Youngs had a black lab dog name Garrison, who was often allowed to roam free in the backyard and seeing that gate Open was very unusual. So those first two things. She noticed she got to the front door and she heard Mister Garrison inside whimpering, which seemed a little bit unusual fortunately she couldn't you shouldn't have a key. She thought she had a key, but then she realized that she had let a friend borrow quickie, while she and Jason and and them were in New York, vacation a little while earlier. So she can have a key to get in. She eventually realized that the garage door was broken and she was able to slip underneath the crack of the garage door by pushing up just enough to get her body inside, and she noticed that Michelle's Lexus Suv was in this.

Out of the garage, which also was very odd, because she should have been at work at progress. Energy. Where she was a financial specialist in the accounting department. So all those things were unusual before she even open the door to enter the home, no one. She editors. She had any suspicions whatsoever despite having seen these unusual things. What is their mindset? Is she walks into this this home. Your her mindset is there's a lot, that's unusual, but she wasn't able to piece together or anything until she got Up stairs and then it all became very clear, but she looks into the home the unlocked door leading from the garage into the kitchen, and she notices that Michelle's purse is lying on the floor against a leg of a small desk which just heard that Michelle must

see in the house and she starts crying out Michelle Michelle and there's no response, and then she proceeds up the front stairway and to the top of the stairs Case casing out of the provision on her right. She Cassidy Cassidy's bathroom and she noticed she notices that foot are footprints on Cassidy's bathroom floor and then she looks at the landing just at the top of the staircase and she notices notices that they're similar footprints on the carpet. On the landing and those footprints. She realizes that actually in the color red are just large enough to a popular set of footprints, and so they were clearly capacities footprints, but even then she's thinking. The Cassidy must have gotten into Michelle's red Hair dye

and she's thinking. Michelle must be pissed, so she doesn't clue in at at that point that those footprints were made in blood She then turns to the left to face the master bedroom, and should a few steps to the entrance way of the master bedroom. And then she sees, in addition to red streaks, on the walls and red spots, on the walls and on the bed, she sees in between the bad on the far side of the bed and the some closet doors she sees. Her sister's lifeless body lying on the floor, so in blood

that's when she realized that her sister has been attacked and she immediately goes to the phone to call nine one one. You talk about her sister Michelle laying face down in this now realizes Meredith realizes up as a pool of blood. You say, while she's looking in horror and shock at her lifeless sisters body there's a rustling under the covers hello. That's exactly right! So right about the same time, she punches in the number is nine one one at the near side of the bed, which is actually Chasen's side of the bed. There's a rush under the covers and then the covers are hold down and they are staring at. Her is her two and a half year old, niece, Cassidy Unharmed and Cassidy looks at her. She looks back at Cassidy and then Cassidy leaps for forward to her an clings to her hip. Like a Koala bear

wall, Meredith proceeds to begin the conversation with the nine one, one dispatcher right, nine one run procedure. They ask a lot of questions of Meredith. What are some of the questions? They ask her amid immediately initially what I asked her whether what happened and Mera says didn't know, weather her sister had a pulse and Meredith also didn't know, because she actually had never checked to see if she had a pulse. She had never actually gone up and touched her sister's body. So at that point, she's directed to do those things and when she touches her sister's body, it's cold and she reports that she's eventually instructed to try and turn her sister's body over so that she stays up so that she can try to perform CPR and she basically tells the the dispatcher her body is

so twisted, and it's so heavy. She can't do that. And then she also says her body is ice. Cold. It's stiff, in that room mortis has set in at that point. The dispatcher basically gives her permission to. Sees any further lifesaving efforts, because it's very clear that Michelle is dead and has been dead for some time now. You talk about this circumstances that Michelle investigators immediately find out that she is four one slash two months pregnant with this baby boy, that they've already named Ryland, and also that this is we talked about. You talked about the third anniversary and where Jason was at this particular time when this nine one one call was made, tell us what investigators find at the crime scene in terms of

a four star non forced entry. Tell us what of the some of the things that they deduce from that crime scene. Initially initially there were, there were no signs at all of any forced entry. There will be. Only blood found in the house was on the top level, and I've already described blood in Cassidy's bathroom There was also not only blood on the floor for bathroom there was blood smeared all over the walls of her bathroom, very clear that she had played in her mother's blood. Now there were streaks and smears at a very low height on the walls, including behind the door of Cassidy's bathroom there was baby doll that was set out next to Michelle's head in master bedroom. That Cassidy had clearly placed there and there were some of Cassie's footprints there right around Michelle's head, so they all of those things but downstairs the only blood that was visible was on the door

I have that same kitchen door that Meredith had entered from. On the reverse side, the kitchen side, there were a couple of small drops of blood there. All of that blood was eventually determined to be blood from Michelle No one else's blood was found at the crime scene, the blood spa better when is high as the ceiling in the bedroom. It was very clear that there was a beating that was inflicted upon Michelle. When you look at her face, you saw that her teeth had been knocked out. Her lips were cut badly. Her jaw bone was actually protruding through her skin. On her face, it was very clear that her head had been beaten either with a blunt object or with us strongly with a fist. Many many times she was dressed. There was no indication of any type of a sexual assault. The only thing missing from the bedroom. There were two drawers

a jewelry box out of a total of three that were not there. They were missing and then Michelle's, wedding and engagement rings that supposedly she always had worn, were also missing from the ring finger of her left hand. Those were the show things that appeared to be missing from the house. There do not appear to be a robbery of any kind at all. He talked about the investigators and that initially are assigned to this case.

And then the medical examiner, trying to determine the time of death to be more accurately pinpoint when she was killed in actuality now, investigators have to find out and determine about Jason's whereabouts. During this time, tell about tell us about their efforts to contact him. How is Jason first notified about the death of Michelle? What is his reaction, telesto circumstances and then tell us his reaction to finding out about that police are interested in questioning him. Talking to him sure so, Jason was on a business trip, there's no Speed about that Jason went. He had a business meeting that was supposed to take place at ten o'clock on November. Third, Clintwood Virginia. He was selling electronic medical software, Electro

Medical Records software. That was a big thing. That Barack Obama is president was pushing, was getting physicians and hospitals to convert to paper records into electronic records, and he was selling software that would allow hospitals and doctors offices to do just that. He had just started this. Company called short one and he had a meeting at regional hospital in Clint would Virginia the morning of the third. So he decided he was going to leave home on the second to break his trip into two legs and he was going to stay at a Hampton Inn Hotel in hills, we'll Virginia, which is kind of in the western mountains of Virginia before heading almost to the Kentucky Border to Clintwood the next morning for his sales meeting. So so that's what he did. He went and had sales meeting. He was currently about thirty minutes late to the meeting. It didn't go. Well, they didn't buy the software and he drove south through

Asheville North Carolina another hour to his home in Bravo North Carolina, which is where he grew up and he was spend the night there with his mother and his stepfather. He pulls up to the curb he gets out of his car. He is which was a Ford explorer. He slings his suit jacket over his shoulder and he starts walking up to the front the he notices that his mother, Pat and his stepfather Gerald are standing on, front lawn and they have very worried. Anxious looks on their faces and he walks up to them and he says what's wrong: is it grandma and Gerald his stepfather looks at him and he says no Jason. It's Michelle. Michelle is dead and Jason's immediate reaction, according to both his mother step, stepfather was that he fell to his knees and he started sobbing immediately and they basically

how catch him before he did a face plant into the ground. They brought him into the house where he was sobbing uncontrollably and eventually later that day, they make the decision to head back to Raleigh, which is a some five hours away. Eastern five hours EAST all across North Carolina and they drive and along the way I've backseat out with her son, Jason and she's receiving calls here and there, and one of them is from law enforcement. Indicating that they want to speak with Jason and when Jason arrives at his sister in Laws House Mirror House law enforcement seizes his for his four for and he several more requests to meet with law enforcement. Jason says he's not going to do that, but he's already had contact with a lawyer's office that he's going with a lawyer first and he's not going to have any communications with law enforcement until he's done that, and so that's that started.

You say that Meredith is very. Close with Michelle and and very close to Jason, so much so that she has been agreed to be the nanny for their child. So there is a closeness in the relationship when Meredith discovered or found out or heard that Jason was not going to answer any questions from police did she think she was of of exception and that he would talk to her? He would speak to her. We did naturally believe that he would say something to her. Regarding this, I don't think that's clear. I don't get that much into mirrors mindset so that you know the information that I had for for this book in my research did not come directly from the participants from the family members. It came from the trials. They testified about these sorts of things both through there

last night I watched on video footage and transcripts that I read I was able the green certain things, that's not something that I was able to glean, but what I can tell you is that Michelle already. I'm sorry Meredith already started suspecting something about Jason, that very night that he came to the house because they went to the back, porch and Meredith was encouraging him to try to speak with police and he was refusing at one point he ugh her on the back deck just cementing what had happened, and he in view I was basically fake crying that there was some

that didn't seem genuine about the way that he was crying that made her suspicious on that very night. So she was suspicious right away. That Jason might have been involved in Michelle's murder right now, as you do, you talk about Michelle Marie Fischer and she was born in Sayville, Suffolk, county Long Island and her dad. Alan and her mother, Linda and Linda, is quite important. Character in this story certainly tell us about her life growing up and the end and then how eventually she was to meet Jason Young. Michelle grew up in long island, as I mentioned earlier. As did I she grew up. She was about ten years younger than Maine, and she graduated from Sayville High School in nineteen. Ninety five, by all accounts she was in energetic vivacious, just

full of life teenager. She cheered because her mother was the cheering coach at Sayville Junior high school. So she was cheering in junior high school and then she was cheering a high school as well, and eventually was the co captain of the cheerleading team and they won. They were co champions, I think, of of all of long island as a cheer team, She actually when she went into state as she was on the cheering squad, NC state as well. She made straight a's throughout high school. She made basically straight laced throughout college. She was an incredibly gifted student. She made friends extremely easily and she was a very pretty woman and had a smile as people would say that would light up a room. Her her demean was such that people wanted to be around her and people enjoyed her. She formed friends that lasted a lifetime,

all them who were feature prominently in the book and she wound up meeting Jason when she was celebrating. I think it was her twenty, so her birthday at a local Raleigh bar with, of course, a cluster of friends, and so happened that Jason Young, who had grass rated from Nc State a couple of years before Michelle Jason I was in the bar that night himself out with a cluster of his own friends and Jason, was kind of a goofy silly guy. He could be very charismatic, but he could also be very wild and at night true to form he was being a little bit wild and he knocked over her wine glass.

They struck up a conversation which is the very first time they had ever met one another, and there was somewhat of a spark and that spark eventually led to a romance. You talk about their personalities and, and people have said, opposites attract. Tell us how opposite their personalities were going into This relationship. Well, Michelle was described by everybody who knew her as a meticulous planner. Somebody who won the chart out every aspect of her life of her life. She wanted to have a shared her whole wedding designed and planned out before she even met Jason. She knew exactly what she wanted from a wedding. In terms of you know what the decorations would be, who be there as an accountant. She was very meticulous about work. She had great job, she started out after getting her master's degree at the waiting to

eventually, wound up working eventually for progress, energy, a fortune five hundred company, that's now part of Duke Energy in their accounting tax department, everything everything about her was planned. Meticulous and top notch, watch Jason, on the other hand, as people were want to say, they flew by the seat of his pants, didn't plan anything out. Basically, he wanted to encounter life on a minute by minute, second, by second basis and had to pull pranks. I wanted to make people laugh. He wanted to enter in people, and he would do basically anything to to entertain his friends to how fun he would get drunk frequently at parties at tailgates at football games, and sometimes when he got drunk, he did some things that were pretty shocking, like he did something that I referred to in the book, because everybody else talked about the message. Dick trends were, you

could actually pull down his pants and use his genitalia to perform in front of US people, male and female. And this was who Michelle this meticulous planner, who got straight a's throughout high school and college, this is who she married. Now you say, despite her elaborate wedding plans and floral arrangements and the white picket fence dream and the house full of kids by summer, two thousand and three she learned she is pregnant and they were living together. But what is Jasons, this frat boy that can swap what's his reaction to the user to pregnant. There are two different versions of his reaction. There is his version which he provide. Testimony about in the case and then there's the version of a friend, a lifelong for end of Michels, who describes shell calling her one night in that same time, period

sobbing in tears and what she reported Michelle told her is that Michelle had told Jason that she was pregnant and J and basically told her in no uncertain terms that if she didn't abort the baby that he would, she would regret that decision for the rest of her life and that he would never be able to forgive her for not morning, the baby, and that was very poignant test only in the second trial. That is not wait at all Jason portrayed that decision making process and what he thought of when he learned that she was pregnant. He described it as you know it a shock to him and he was not sure he was ready, but he was perfectly happy to have Cassidy as his child and very quickly came around to the decision to propose to Michelle,

the result of knowing she was going to have a baby to get some credibility to what he said. How does he act during the pregnancy in terms of preparation for the baby's birth. Well, Jason again he wasn't the planner. He wasn't the person who figure Things out and made sure things were the way they needed to be was Michelle and, to some extent, Michelle's mother, Linda, who did those things and Jason was kind of along for the ride he Wah and a big part of planning the baby planning for the wedding, in fact, You just wanted to make sure that the wedding itself and falling on a saturday that would conflict with an Nc State Football game because he couldn't have that he he wanted to make sure there was plenty of beer at the wedding from that. He was more than willing to cede all wedding planning responsibilities to Michelle and her family

and the same was pretty much true for the baby other than the back that if the baby to be a boy- and this turned out to be true for Ryland who Michelle was pregnant with at the time of her death, all the baby couldn't wear any clothes that were blue, or at least not that shade of blue. That conflicted with Nc State Nc State Wolfpack is red and light Blue is the color of the Carolina tar heels and so Jason an avid wolf fan and hated the tar heels and want to make sure that the any clothing that was purchased for his children didn't suggest that he was a tar fan, tell us about Michelle's, mother, Linda and what Linda's impression of Jason was and also the circumstances in which they found themselves in terms of an argument over Linda

rule in the babies, lives, ok and so Linda was a school teacher which I likely so was Jason's, mother, Pat and Linda, because she was a school teacher. Had summers completely to herself and after Cassidy was born, she would spay and the large chunks of her summer low living with machine and Jason. So the first summer the after Cassie was born in two thousand and four. She come summer living at the town home they lived in the next summer. They had moved into their home on birch, leaf and she's large portions of that summer. There, as she did the following summer, two thousand and six Linda was a New York raised New York bred woman in her at that point in time in 50s, and she had very decided views about things and about her daughter

and she very quickly came to consider Jason as not good enough for her daughter that it was very immature, irresponsible and didn't pull his weight in their marriage and especially after Cassidy was born. Didn't pull his weight with child responsibilities? Instead, he would go off and do things like join basketball and softball leagues, and even though work from home, never at home. When Linda was there an she grew. It just satisfied with the way he was pulling his weight and treating her daughter Jason of first found her to be very intrusive. Moving in on their new home in the summer of two thousand and five, Almost the day that Jason and Michelle moved in and he couldn't stand her and didn't have anything to do with her that created enormous turmoil and conflict as we head into two thousand and six and then of course, Michelle gets pregnant. Two thousand and, and me

L tells Jason that she's planning to convert the third floor attic into put bedrooms and bathroom essentia. Essentially, a mother in law suite for Linda to move in and Linda at that point has tired from teaching all together. So the thought is that windows gonna, move in and be that violence Manny after he's, born and in early two thousand and seven and that Jason is going to have to see your pretty much every day and Jace said no way. That is not going to happen and they're also having fights about. How does they were going to stay out over the holidays in two thousand and six? The extent to which window would be part of that and Jason was pushing as hard as he could to win Linda this time with them over the holidays and, of course, Michelle loved. Her mother dearly was,

and for the opposite, so there was enormous conflict or things like that. You talk about Jason's excitement in anticipation of the of the of the their baby Ryland, that being a baby boy. Why was he particularly he said excited about have, all of a sudden, Jason's Father Bobby died of cancer when he was only five years old and and Jason was the only son born to Bob and Pat Young. Therefore, he was the only one of the three children that have the ability to carry down the young name into another generation, and so Cassidy, of course, presumably was not going to carry the young name down after she got married, so having a boy gave Jason the ability to have his father's memory preserved by the young name being passed down to another generation, and he was very excited about that. Jason is also very.

He was very manly, like being a man and having a boy or son to you know, do sports related things with, I think, really appealed to him. So he was really looking forward to having, by all accounts, to have violin as a son. You talk about to that. Once they had the dream home, they both agreed to prepare their wills. Some people might find that unusual. Why was this something that it important to them, especially it was important to Michelle actually more than it was important to Jason MA well being a meticulous planner that she was wanted to make sure that everything was in order. Everything that was in place, including should buy, the unfortunate circumstances and the wheels actually led to a discussion about life insurance and somebody that was a sorority sister of Michelle's help them, both with respect to wheels powers of attorney and living wills, and also bouncing

ideas about life, insurance, and Michelle with, because she was a cpa- was able to get some fairly expensive life insurance through the North Carolina chapter of the CPA Association and was able to procure a two million dollar life insurance policy for herself, an for Jason, which had a double indemnity provision. Many would pay four million dollars in the event of a death. That was that accidental and so there was a four million dollar policy, essentially in place on Michelle's life. At the time she was murdered incredible. Let's use this as an opportunity Stephen to stop for a second to talk about our sponsor that is it fun. Two thousand and nineteen fab fit fine fall box is on sale. Now that fits one is a woman's lifestyle subscription box filled with full size, premium, beauty, lifestyle, fitness

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and Michelle and all the precipitating factors that might have led to his possible murder of his of his of his unborn child and his wife and leaving Cassidy to again, as we've mentioned, walk through the blood of her mother. When investigators look at the forensic evidence when they get the search warrants for vehicles and homes, tell us about the investigators quest to get forensic evidence, tying Jason young to this murder sure. And so we obviously started to that same day with still doing tasks around the house using a chemical called scene of failing to see if they could detect any more creases. A blood mother, of course, looking for bloody fingerprints, because that would tie the finger in the hand of whoever

for hand belong to to the murder. They were not successful in finding any bloody fingerprints other than Cassidy's. It find two sets of shoe prints were made in blood which were promising leads that were made on a pillow case. They had that those sent off for analysis and testing at the State Bureau of Investigation. Obviously there was a medical examiner who very quickly determined that Michelle had indeed died. As the result of blunt force trauma to the head, she had been beaten some thirty times, mostly in the head at lower lots of lacerations in her skull. As I said her, she was hit so hard that her jaw bone protruded. Through her the skin on her face, so they were able to determine that she was beaten. Pretty viciously also were able to determine through the medical examiner that she defend. Yourself there were lots of marks on her arms and hands sub

I that she had deflected some of those blows and that was significant to investigators, because they were able to determine that there was a struggle. There was a fight, so they had, You can in as they're allowed to do under the law and they got his blood. They got his saliva. And they also photographed every nook and cranny and square inch of his body and they're very shocking thing to them. At that point, was the There wasn't a scratch mark on him that seemed very counterintuitive if he was the killer, because Michelle had clearly defended herself. The other thing that I found, that was surprising. If Jason, in fact was the one who killed her was that there was not a sign of blood in his vehicle and remember he was at a hotel in Hampton at the Hampton Inn Hotel in Virginia and He had to come back. Some two one slash two hours if he was one to have done this crime and

he had to be in his vehicle a whole lot of the time and if you had done all of these things- and it was a very compressed timeline if he was going to make that meeting the next day and they actually were able to trace his cell phone pinging, a cell tower in Wythville Virginia at seven hundred and forty in the morning of the third, so they knew you know at best he had some hour or so to committed this crime. Gotten back in his car, driven up there and still made the meeting the next day, there surely had to be some kind of sign of blood or something in his car, and there wasn't was no sign of blood in his hotel room either they searched that what they did find at the hotel, though, was one of the things that led them in the direction of Jason Young. This key card was used only a single time when he checked into the hotel and went to his room, the very first time about one thousand and fifty four on November. Second, our cameras showing that he left his hotel room. He was pictured at the front desk of the hotel actually wearing

different shirt that he had been wearing at the time. He checked him and they show him. Another camera shows him walking down the hallway right about it, midnight again wearing that different shirt that was at midnight on November. Second, just before the clock turns in November, the third and that's the last time his whereabouts at the hotel could be documented. So we know he would have left about midnight and he's back in Wiffle Virginia at seven hundred and forty the next morning. So what did they find their? They found these things first, there was a rock propping open, and emergency exit door exactly in the direction that Jason was walking at midnight. Second, they able to determine that the camera in that basic location had been disabled unplugged at eleven, the previous night about half an hour after Jason check into the hotel when it was deter that camera was disabled. They were able to get it working and they plugged it in, and then it's six hundred and thirty

on the morning of November. Third, all of a sudden the footage from that camera that was pointed toward the door and the hallway, the foot, that camera was of the ceiling. The camera had been pushed up to the ceiling at about six hundred and thirty that morning, those discoveries and the fact that Jason was wearing different clothing at the front desk. You check in with just an hour before, and also that that clothing was never found among Jason's possessions all point strongly in the direction that Jason had left the hotel travel to Raleigh North Carolina Michelle and then came back to Virginia to preserve his alibi. You also talk about the what prince the shoe prints and the extensive investigation to try to find out if they could match that to footwear that he wore tell us a little bit

about the hush, puppies and size, ten and twelve prince sure. So there were clearly two distinct shoes that were found. Eventually, it was both the FBI and specialist from hush puppies that helped the State Bureau investigation figure out what the fuck she was easy to identify. It was a size, ten Franklin AIR Fit shoe if that work, type issues that were sold at dollar general stores, very cheap, ten dollars pairs of sneakers, a Jason by the way with size twelve, so that was somewhat enigmatic. What did that have to do with Jason? This pair of shoes was eventually identified to be hush puppies or girl shoes size, twelve, which was the so has Jason WAR an not only did Jason wear size twelve. He had purchased a pair of hush puppies orbital shoes a year before this

order. Occured actually was about a year and a half July, fourth of two thousand and five and Jc at trial, contended that Michelle must have thrown those shoes away, but some picture hours, Jason that were made from the footage of him both at the Hampton Inn. And I'm sorry, but at the Hampton Inn, yes and also the cracker barrel, where he had dinner the night of November. Second, we're sure It looks very similar to the hush puppy, orbital shoes that the product specialist from hush puppy said those shoe prints were from, and so those tied fairly closely to Jason Young, even though he said that Michelle must have gotten rid of those shoes, they were never found, along with the he was wearing the night of the murder. So again, that's something that pointed at him directly. Although the size ten shoes were very enigmatic, the other very enigmatic with Cassidy.

Cassidy, remember she was under the covers in the bedroom she had walked through her mothers, boo. She had played with the blood in her bathroom with her hands with her feet. Clearly there had to be blood all over that child and yet, when Meredith found her at one hundred and fifteen in the afternoon November. Third, as merit described it, she was shockingly clean and that no one was ever able to explain not the prosecutors, not the family members, but the sbi. The detectives who investigate case no one was able to explain how that happened. There's a couple other things that are very interesting in terms and then to continue in that thread in terms of how Cassidy could have been so clean despite this crime scene, but also that the red liquid found in a dropper and a medicine bottle, and why that could be at least

technically tide to Jason because of his job tell us what they found so Jason worked before he worked at chart once on the electronic medical records software. He worked at a company called PAN American laboratories and he sold pharmaceuticals One of the problem- pharmaceuticals he sold was called PAN called PD, which was a cough medison for adults in a mission. So so the lead detective, detective, Spivey, when he got involved in case one of the first things he did. You started looking through pictures and all of the pictures that he focused on was of a hutch in Cassidy's bedroom on that hutch were two different bottles. One was of adult strength. Tylenol in a liquid one was the pan call Pee Dee Ann

He also noticed that there was a drop or sitting next to one of those bottles and it had a liquid in it. And he eventually had that liquid sent off for testing and sure enough. It had a mixture of some of these adults, strength, medicines that included the hydra coding, which is something that will cause drowsiness in an adult, let alone in a two and a half year old child and Jason. Having known about these kinds of drugs from having sold them. Clearly, would have known what the side effects of those drugs were, the theory very quickly became that Jason had given Cassidy perhaps, He entered that home before he killed Michelle, perhaps after he killed her given her a bunch of this medication in order to get her to go to sleep and that after he was getting ready to leave the house after committing the murder put for cleaner up put her in the bed. She was fat.

To sleep, and she stayed asleep for the many hours between then and when she was discovered at one hundred and fifteen the next afternoon by her aunt and that the working theory throughout the case that he had been dropped right now, with you talk about to sergeant Spivey and the police is a need to be able to speak to people along the way and potentially at gas stations, because this time line that depended on you have to stop and they need of records of those gas stops to be able to make their case and to be able to prove their time line. At the theory, that's about tell us who they found at one of these gas stations. Remarkably, they found a woman named Gracie Poonoor Gracie, DOMS or Gracie Bailey? She went by different names at different times. They showed her a picture and she was located in King NC

at a convenience, store, Slash gas station, the four brothers Convenience store and they showed her a picture of Jason's vehicle and they showed her a picture of Jason and they asked did this vehicle did this man come to this disk or sometime in the early morning, hours of November, the third? They were there a few days later and they asked her a few days before. Did this vehicle to this works for this White Ford Explorer and this man show up and get gas at your gas station and said yes, she said, Remember very distinctly. This man came in after buzzing on the pump several times because it was early morning hours. We wouldn't allow the pumps to be on until somebody came in and showed identification he came and angry. Get me any through a twenty dollars bill to me, and then he pumped his gas and he left and she became an important witness for the prosecution to establish that chase.

Was not asleep at hotel at four four five six seven in the morning. Rather, he was on his way back from having committed this murder rap. Out of fuel needed more fuel and filled up at that gas station. That was some hour away or so forty five minutes. I think it was away from Helen held over dinner. Now you talk about in the book to the personal flight. At the same time, all of this is going on. This investigation is that Linden merit after suffering, separation, anxiety, basically from not being able to see Cassidy and worrying about Cassidy's life. A couple attorneys Paul Michaels and his brother are approached by the district attorney Howard Cummings. What is the ask them to do and what he? What does he believe this endeavor legally might be able to

and then result. What's the end result of what this person would like to have. These attorneys do on because the frantic evidence wasn't coming together in the way that the Wake County Sheriff's office had hoped it would in the way that she Sheriff Donnie Hand with Harrison needed for it to come together in order to go to the grand jury and get the diaper indictment against Jason. They were somewhat stuck again. The forensic evidence was not clearly pointing at Jason and they needed some help. So the district assistant district attorney in charge of the case, Howard, Cummings, gotta couple of personal injury lawyers involved pollen Jack Michaels to see if they wouldn't file wrongful death case against Jason on behalf of Michelle's family. To basically turn up some new evidence, possibly even take Jason's deposition, get him on the as to what happened since he wasn't talking to detectives and they filed that wrongful death case and Jason Binn

respond. He defaulted allowing judgment to be taken against him and that judgment was eventually signed by Judge Name, Donald Stephens, which, among Its findings included a provision declaring that Jason was the Slayer of Michelle under North Carolina Slayer statute, and for that reason, barring him, from recovering any life insurance proceeds. Remember. There was a four million dollar life insurance policy that was ready to be paid out. It didn't get it out the Jason because he was determined to be the Slayer and instead that money was directed toward Cassidy as his next as the next lineal descendant of Michelle Young there. So no evidence was actually gathered because Jason didn't respond, however, that wrongful death judgment against him would loom large in later proceedings now talk about the grand jury, grand jury indictment and what happens

as a result, so by December of two thousand and nine now over three years after the murder, everyone's getting somewhat impatient. Ultimately, the district attorney's office decides they have as much evidence as they're, going to have it's time to move forward and put the evidence before the grand jury they did sergeant. Five is the only witness who testified before the grand jury and his testimony was convincing enough that they indicted him fairly quickly, leading a posse of sheriff's officers. To from Raleigh the five hour trek to or North Carolina in order to arrest Jason, which they did in early. This number of two thousand nine now tell us how they proceed with this grand jury indictment.

Now it's just so the way the grand jury process works is there's. No defense attorney involved that it's a one sided fight the da gets to put on any evidence they won, so they basically called sergeant spivey to basically go through with the grand jury, all of the evidence they had amassed, which would have included things like the hush puppies shoe prints in that were the same size, Jason WAR. It would have included things like the propped open door at the Hampton Inn, the camera being tampered with twice at Hampton Inn would have included in our personal stories, between Jason and Michelle, Jason and Linda and all of the turmoil that was going on in their marriage and in Jason's life. Those types of things would have been presented. Grand jury proceedings are secret, so I don't have access to them in writing the book, but presumably those are the types of

things that would have been presented to the grand jury and then the grand jury will be liberated and come to a decision that they were going to end sign the bill of indictment, which meant that at that point, Jason is formally charged with first degree murder. Ok, now you talk about the judge, Stevens would be presiding over the trial, and this is for June. Two thousand and eleven and Brian Collins is the public defender wake County and he was appointed an MIKE Glencoe, some of them both and both excellent attorneys, as you say, and the da is calling Willoughby and the he's assigned how we Cummings and Becky holds the lead up to the prosecution. Why we correct that slightly in that Howard Cummings was leading the prosecution but was not able to participate in that first trial, because you just tried another very complex murder case.

David sacks. Another attorney in the district attorneys office actually filled in as the second share attorney. Becky Holt was the first chair prosecutor in that first drop. What you write about, though too, is with the replacement at how are Cummings because of the previous case. Who's working on David Sax was the most inexperienced attorney of the lot wasn't he was, but he was not an inexperienced attorney by any stretch. In fact, David sacks had been involved in the Michael Peterson murder case when he had been part of the DA's office in Durham County, Michael Peterson, is of course the the staircase murder. So to speak, where his wife was found at the bottom of a staircase in Durham North Carolina and he was ultimately convicted of killing her Although he was later released from prison and David sat was one of the more junior lawyers involved. In that case, said

four years before this trial. Now it's very interesting- and you have already alluded to more than one trial. So, let's talk about what happens at this first trial and the obviously successes and failures of that first trial, and why tell us what happens in this trial killer audience. Well, a lot of the trial focused on the forensics an what was interesting is that the DA's office Becky Holton, David sacks put on a large quantity of forensic evidence live, vast majority, which did not point at Jason, young and, of course, his defense attorneys hammered away at all of the things that did not think Jason Young no blood in his hotel room, no blood in the car. Despite the fact that it was one of the bloodiest crime scenes, you could imagine

all of the things that were unexplained like Cassidy, shockingly clean appearance like the size, ten shoe prints, and so all of these things were thrown up to cast reasonable doubt in the mind, some jurors. But the most probably the high point of the trial from the theatrical standpoint was when Jason, young took the witness, stand much to the surprise of the prosecutors and for a couple of hours in his direct examination. Mezmur the jury with his testimony about his love for Michelle, his wife and the Light that they let together and it wasn't a perfect marriage and though he had made mistakes. In fact, he admitted to having affairs, including a very active affair at the time, his wife, was killed, that he had nothing whatsoever to do with her murder and it was convincing testimony. The cross examination was very brief. It only lasted some five thousand and fifty five minutes, and it didn't make a lot of progress.

Establishing that Jason wasn't in his wife's murder. The difficult questions that he could have been confronted with, he was not, I think the prosecutors were actually not expecting him to testify and we're not prepared to cross examine him. They did the best they could, but he got the better of the prosecutors rather than the other way around, which is not the way it's supposed to be, and that result resulted. Imagery most part finding a reasonable doubt. Eight of the jurors were at the time and the case was miss because the jury did not come to a unanimous decision. Eight of the jurors had decided they would have voted in favor of a quitting Jason. Four The jurors hung strong and prevent that result and as a result of the judge,

Stevens declared a mistrial and that led to the case being tried. A second time about seven months later, tell us about the issue of the judge. Mentioning the Slayer statute. Designation at trial. Tell us one that ok, and and others who works. That did not happen in the first trial, the first trial, as I it focused a lot on the forensic evidence and then the the real pinnacle of that first trial was when Jason came to the witness stand in his own defense in the second trial, a lot of things were different. The prosecutors really wanted to do things differently and Howard Cummings at this point is back in The first chair, Becky, hold slides to second chair David Sex is not part of the second trial, and they wanted to do a lot of things differently. They

focus less on the forensic evidence. They focused more on Jason and Jason's mindset and the relationship and the troubles in his marriage. They, the affair, is that he had were more pronounced in the second trial that he had had a former girlfriend that became a fiance who acts attacked in a hotel room in Texas during that relationship was played up some. More prominently than the first trial, and then this The other thing that was mentioned in the in the second trial that had no role in the first trial was the wrongful death judgment that judge stevens himself. The trial judge in the criminal case had signed when Jason defaulted. When Paul and Jack MIKE filed that case. Several you, earlier, and that was brought to the jury's attention. When the clerk of court, a woman by the name of Lauren Freeman, who eventually became the district attorney, she was called to testify about the case file in the wrongful death case and test, by that a wrongful death judgment had been entered against Jason, declaring that Jason had

the Slayer of Michelle. And that fact was put to the jury. As if it was a fact they should have been aware of, and So there an objection was made initially by eight Brian columns. There was very little objection thereafter to this testimony coming before the second jury right, and he talked about two that the information that he when he was on the stand in the first trial, they were able the prosecution to be able to have the jury, hear that in your testimony in the second trial. One thing: not only were they able to do that they use that, instead of it being a enough active, do amps for Jason, as it was in the first trial, they were able to use it as a prosecution sword in the second trial. Why? Because they seven months to pour over everything, Jason said from the

going to stand in the first trial. Remember he hadn't spoken uh, Anyone, not law enforcement, not his family, not his friends about his whereabouts and his circumstances. In the days leading up to the murder. The day of the murder before he took wouldn't stand in the first trial, so I didn't know what he was going to say, but after the first file ended in a mistrial. They knew everything he had said and every fact that was in his testimony was thoroughly fat checked with all the evidence that the sheriff's office had a over all those years and they several inconsistencies between what some said from the witness stand and the facts they had amassed and sergeant. Spivey went through one by one in the second trial before the second jury after they had played his videotaped testimony from the first trial. That was a very effective way of establishing. Not only was Jason, not the charming

charismatic guy that he presented himself as to the first jury that he was lying about a number of things, including his whereabouts, the night of the murder, whether he was at a hotel room he was wearing and so forth, and that that ultimately, I think was the reason why the second jury unanimously found that beyond a reasonable doubt that he had killed his wife right. Now, as a result of that second trial. In that conviction. How do we get to this continuing tell us what happens, Well, where did this case had more twists and turns as one of my reviewers Justice Bob admins for North kind of Spring Court said, then, the road from man PO to Murphy, which is basically going across the entire state of North Carolina so April. First of twenty fifteen. I think it was was when this case I'm

April first of twenty fourteen. This case had another twist and turn, which is when the court of Appeals of North Carolina no April fools joke throughout the conviction they threw out the conviction. Cause of the wrongful death evidence coming before, or the second jury. That Second jury should never have learned. The court of appeal said: Jason Young had been found. Why double civilly for the wrong full death of his wife and that he had been declared the Slayer in that civil case and that what made it look like it was to be one slash: trial of Jason, young, so much to the elation of his family looked like he might get a third shot to convince the jury that he wasn't guilty and much to the consternation of this, the the Fisher family who have been fighting for justice by that point. For some seven

one slash two years, they thought they were back to square one and that they were going to have to go back to a courtroom and have a slash trial, weather Jason had in fact killed Michelle. I would ultimately happened because the Supreme Court ultimately undid the Court of Hill's decision and said that Jason's lawyers failure to object to that. Every time coming before the second jury or at least objectives, often and in the right places that they should have been objecting essentially was enough of a default on their part that the court could not save. That Jason had received an unfair trial because that evidence came in it was their obligation to object. They had not and therefore the only the question remaining was weather. Their failure to object had deprived Jason of effective assistance of counsel and for that purpose, and that purpose only they sent the case back down once again to the wake county. Superior court not have a trial of Jason's go

in a but to have a hearing on whether he was deprived, effective assistance of counsel that he's owed under the constitution and that eventually did occur in June of twenty seventeen before another superior court judge named Paul rich way. You talk about that ineffective counsel. What was the decision on? on that, obviously or decision by Judge Ridgeway after essentially a full day's hearing in which Brian Collins, who by then was a sitting superior court, judge himself? He was the key witness about. He had made mistakes sufficient to grant J in a new trial, judge, Paul Ridgeway's, fifty page so decision was that Whatever the failures occurred in the representation of Jason, they change. The outcome that the outcome of his guilty verdict was controlled by many other pieces of evidence and

the wrongful death evidence, even if it had not come in, would not have changed the outcome and therefore he ruled that Jason had not been deprived, effective assistance of counsel. He was not entitled to a new trial and that decision was ultimately affirmed by the court of Appeals, and it has since been reviewed by the N County Supreme Court in May of twenty nineteen, and that is where this case in have you reached its ultimate end, which actually just a few weeks before my book was published. Incredible incredible incredible. I guess this was incredible: incredible relief, not a closure, but a relief for Linda and Meredith and their family Fisher family tell us about Cassidy. Afterwards. Today was so. The the book does not cover that subject, because I did not have intimate knowledge about city and what her life has been sent. Obviously it wouldn't go into this, but as part

the custody case that that occurred before Jason was arrested. He agreed to give up custody of Cassidy to Meredith which get occur before he was arrested and Meredith has had custody of Cassidy ever since so, basically from kindergarten. Until now, Cassidy has been raised by Meredith here in North Carolina. She is currently a rising tenth, grader she by all accounts is doing well. And has flourished, despite these awful circumstances that have surrounded her entire life, and so those who I I have some friends who have children that have gone to school with her? And what I have learned from them is that she's doing amazingly well here in two thousand nineteen as a fifteen year old center and how about Jason Young? Where does he sit supposedly for the rest of

life for the rest of his life. He will be in a cell at the Alexander, correctional institution. In Western North Carolina not far from his family, he those been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole and Presumably he will die in prison interesting. I want to thank you very much, Stephen for coming on and talking about murder on virtually dried, the true story of the Machel young murder case. It's been fascinating for those that might want to take a look at this book on other work. Tell us if you have a facebook, page or website for this book well available on Amazon, just re Search murder on birch leaf, DR you should find it pretty quickly. I also have a website that has tons of information about this.

Yes, you can actually watch both trials on my website from beginning to end. The website is W W w dot murder on virtually for dr dot com. Thank you very much. Steven B abstain for a fascinating interview, murder on virtually DR thank you very much. You have a great evening, you're welcome. It was a pleasure enjoyed participating. Thank you. Goodnight. Hey it's me, and you know we're not never understood,

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