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saleable at the independent doctors of optometry at or next to pearle vision, some doctors employed by pearle vision, the you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker d t k every week, another fascinating author talking to vulcan the most shocking and infamous killers, true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author dan as a family, the good evening in nineteen thirty, one sandy egos idyllic image as a beach town with peaceful suburbs, concealed a harrowing reality, a series of unsolved

I'm targeting women, dueling fear and vulnerability, monsters on the loose, tells the tragic and, the stories of three women murdered early that year virginia brooks luis tilbury and hazel Bradshaw local law enforcement out of town criminologists an investigator from what would become the fbi pursued. Hundreds of leads statewide news, papers covered every angle include, and sometimes plato, all in the investigations yet where's, were never identified and brought to justice in monsters on the loose award winning authoring and historian. Richard l caricom pieces, fragments of evidence together for three called cases getting light on a dark chapter in san diego history more than ninety years after the murders chemical emerges as an advocate for the victims meticulously reconstructing their stories immersed in dusty files. Long forgotten oral here

trees and newly discovered investigation. Records is primary objective remains unwavering to seek justice. for the three young women, with no witnesses to the crimes, the significance of circumstantial evidence and speculation by then and now became paramount, and he may have even solve one of the murders. The book the review during this evening is monsters on the loose their true story. We have three unsolved murders in prohibition era, san diego with my special guest story. In an author, richard l caricom welcome to the programme, and thank you very much for this interview, richard l chemico. Thank you glad to join you. You write that their worth the dead woman, one stabbed one hanged in one strangled, murdered and said: diego within four months in nineteen, thirty one. But they were not. The only case is a murderer and choice kidnapping in san diego that year, like most major city, Santiago, have unsolved murders to examine. But you

archaeologists in the story, and you pick these three murders Virginia brooks Louise tumor and hazel Bradshaw to explore and write about for several reasons. Tell us about that exploration and tell us about the several reasons why you chose these three murders in particular to write about in monsters on the loose thanks dad. Well, basically, I was doing research. This is how things go. Sometimes, when one does research, I was doing research on native. americans and some things that were happy need to them of the nineteen thirty's. This was I almost ten years ago and at some point as I would look into old newspapers and that, at time thereon. Microfilm that now been digitized. I saw while the murders pop up and I started looking to that particular murder, and it was virginia, the little girl virginia brooks and and I sorta got on this quest that maybe I'd write up an article for a local

paper or magazine about the death of a child. A young child is kidnapping and one thing lead to another, and suddenly I realise that in nineteen thirty one in a town that was pretty once known today, at least to be pretty lay back and not a high crime rate, and all of that that there were at least at least nine unsolved murders of people under twenty five and that san diego what number two in the nation and suicides and that there was a underbelly. The san diego that most people didn't think about till then I got the idea for a book and started researching the night and murders, and I put it down to these three because they covered slightly different, chronological age groups. If you Well, with the little girl being eight or nine kidnapped and then Luis tobar, seventeen described as beautiful and

wanted to run away from home and lived with a father who was a nice guy but pushing on in the in her early teenage years mid teenage years and then hazel? Who was a little bit older, twenty two when out on a date and then found murdered later well, bree different types of women. If you will young women, pretty similar economic status She was going on and different methods of being killed and then the investigations took different tracks, same people were involved in many cases at the sending of police department and the sheriffs, but the studies ended up being different from forensics in and the evidence and the newspapers involved, and all that so you're right in your introduction parliament was. I just couldn't believe that we knew so little about these women, young women, and I did want a somewhat advocate for them and also

because it was one of my self interest get into how the newspapers of the time covered. The cases, because you know we're going to a period now were a media comes under a lot of criticism from all different sides and if you read the newspapers back in that time, AL capone was still alive. You know, and then there was all this almost getting into gangsters as good people, so that was the impetus for it. You also talk about the cozy relationship, the press enjoyed with the police and their belief. You say that they almost thought they were part of the investigation. Correct, unlike today, were I'm sure. Some of that still goes on to some degree, but this is more like if you look at an old nineteen, twenty nineteen thirty's movies or the newspaper with their little visor are sitting around a bar with smoke and the guards going on and an shots of whisky and right next to him

policeman, either in uniform or not and their routinely talking about cases and and talking about women and talking about could prohibition was going on talking about booze. So when I was growing up in san diego downtown the bar that is no longer there, but that bar. Even when I was there in the late sixties, met sixes, was the hang out further, paper men whose office was within blocks of the police department, and they routinely met and frank together. Smoke cigars together, went to the race track together, and so there was that side of the press, and then it was also the fact that as soon as a police call came, men or the word got out that there was a victim or a murder happening or happened. In many cases. The newspaper reporters they're right after all, at the same time as the police officers and and oftentimes The crime scene wasn't cordoned off with the yellow taped it so ubiquitous now increase

in cases. In some cases the newspaper people would actually pick up evidence. Show it to the policemen, while in one case that they help carry one the bodies away so very different time. Now you talk about the newspapers at the time. Tell us about the reporting and the headlines It was anyone who's ever read about a scene of videos, documentary of the limber case. The baby that was kidnapped and killed know that the newspapers of the time, if I was gonna, stick one word on it. It would be salacious night and it came out of you know the hearse newspapers sort of started that as a very popular thing up in San Francisco, but examiner another newspapers and the object was to write big, bold black headlines. Whatever the topic was to give the reader to

the newspaper, obviously to some more advertising. So today, newspapers are obviously fading away. Some lot advertising dropped off, but this was the heyday of newspapers and large numbers of them four subscribed to them, read them yet newsboys on the corners in san, diego and new york and san francisco hockey newspapers, and they would, of course, yell out the headline sub item that was as you the article cords women more than men. Obviously they would describe for it Since Louise was in fact quite beautiful at seventeen, but they would say well rounded the love she was yes they would describe her dress, whereas at a male then killed a man been killed, would simply say: a young attorney was found ang. Today they wouldn't describe him as hunky or you know, handsome or like nice yeah. So so that was a big part of the story at the time. Yeah, let's get to the first person the first character in the story and it's a ten year old virginia brooks

nineteen, twenty and indianapolis, and this is February eleven I think thirty, one fateful morning tell us a little bit about virginia brooks, who is she and her parents, blanche and john tell us about life for virginia brooks before february, eleventh, nineteen, thirty one. It's almost as if it's a tv show she was a really good student love to go to the library back when public libraries were, you know the venue for, in books, especially for a marginalized people, less wealthy people and his eyes during the depression had been going on for a year and a half, and she was dark haired and she cut her hair in the style or her mom cut her hair in the style of from the pixie cut, which was made really popular by a movie actress at the time add two brothers, one over one slightly younger and blanche. The mother was right out of a cent casting for the stay at home in a house dress back you mean

cookie and going to the market virtually every day, as people did to go the store and by what they needed to cook and was not terribly well educated, the mother. Wasn't the father was a itinerant truck driver, but also had been a lumbermen up in the north west was described as gaunt and and tall fuel and Junior routinely walked the roughly one point, one or so miles to school five days a week, something you don't kind of unheard about here in ten years ago. Today generally and then, I met a girlfriend on the way they would walk to school and on the way home, go by the library and pick up books and three days before valentine's day. Nineteen thirty one virginia in her little dress with her grad jacket and a book bag and lunch that included an orange and then ten cents in her pocket set out to go to school and disappear.

She was supposed to meet her friend, you mentioned katy, looser, oh, and they routinely would walk a certain distance when they met and she waited for ten minutes. then your friend didn't show up now, there's accounts by people that saw her up to a certain point. How do the detectives in san diego sheriff department, blake mason, how? they proceed well because she was so young and because there was such a regular pattern, unlike today, perhaps unlike today, there was really no a big consideration that she was a run away or she'd intentionally disappear, although that was mentioned. So that evening the police were notified, the show because it was actually any unincorporated area and immediately the police and the sheriff both of them without us, interviewing people and there was no She normally met. Katy was a mexican extract and walked with her though they talk to katy right away, and then they started interviewing people of the neighborhood well into the next day. Obviously

in our view in them, and the trouble with that is, they got terribly conflicting. Stories When people saw her on one side of the street, some sarah on the other, some woman said they. She was pretty sure she saw a plane down in a canyon. We have these very deep canyon. Here in san diego, I it in as a child. Other people said how she got in a roadster with this man. No, she got in a group with a man and a woman, so you can sort of a man agenda bewildering. The context is the police actually got after about two days. If he brought out a map and brought out the people, allegedly she was with. It was all over the place. So the only thing that it and down was a timeline, but her brother had actually written by her on a bicycle and waved at last. No cost was right in his swim by can t walk in and then she ever showed up, so they started the event

negation right away talking to people, and there was no benefit of the doubt given to the fact that she was probably a runaway, as people might think. Today she was gone and taken by someone now you say this was east. Andy, diego at that time was largely were also in this extensive search. It included arms and garages and abandoned homes. Tell us about this sub very, very extensive search yeah. In that way, it is somewhat like the limber kidnapping. I mean that was a baby I wish the out of a house, but they were in a relatively rural areas. Well, so the police realize it wasn't a big force and the end. There was not a lot of crime, I mean statistically up, they, they were set up in a way to do this kind of investigation. So they listed the eight a boy scouts women's clubs, military officers, because we had a pretty large above marine sailor component here in san diego and so

they went out and literally knocked on the door every door and they went. There were a lot of abandoned houses because it was the depression they went. in the few sellers that we have here, we don't have a lot of sellers, but they went down into base. Some sellers and then, when the women's clubs put women club their people, but on Are there were closed if you well, him went through the canyons. Looking do all the bushes, they action listed the navy pilots and they over there by wing airplanes not so low to the ground, looking into the canyons and and these valleys, that they were actually scraping the brush with their wheels according to some accounts and though it was described at the time- and it probably was for several years the largest manhood jeffrey will, or the largest investigation for a job, I order for anyone in san diego county history and both newspapers. The morning paper, the union and the the paper tribune, covered it in and even extra additions and they beata what fine things a thought might have been worse.

Was or some one found part of the jacket that looked like hers in a can opinions and those were newsworthy. They were, they were worth writing up. Some, quite quite the search for poor little virginia in this police have in the fall. But any led for any possibility that it might lead to the abductor february. Twenty six, a John Brooks receives a cryptic letter. What does that letter instruct him to do and what does he do? Well, he received this letter and, of course I wasn't, Oh margaret. Well, it wasn't that ever knew return address on it, and so here we are in san, diego and arizona, does about a hundred and thirty miles. Hurt and forty miles east of here cross the colorado river, and this letter says if you come out here, What site, arizona near course, I'd arizona or a small town out their old mining town go see the postmaster he has information about your daughter and very specific information? bout, your daughter job

I was a little discouraged by the police activities. The letter of course said, don't notify the police. Does. I do it on your own, it'll be okay, and so he and a couple of buddies, but he didn't own a automobile. I had an old truck drove the one hundred and twenty thirty forty miles through the night got out to court said found, the postmaster when he was opened the next morning course the postmaster said. I have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't seen any little girl out here. I did read about in the newspaper gosh. I feel sorry for you, but there's nothing. I can do for you and then John and his compatriots drawback to san diego, and it appeared the next newspaper next days. Newspapers is a big headline back to the desert, worthless blah blah blah if the police were angry, that the John had done that on his own, because he had panned out a little bit better. How would that have played out that that was part of what her father did to day driving that

since in a nicer condition, car wouldn't be a big deal, but a nineteen thirty one driving a hundred and forty or so miles across the desert enough. The mountains and down the mountains was not something one decay, lazy. Well so that was just one of many. many dead ends happened to the father, enter the police. She, reported to be in San francisco. She was reported to be inhuman arizona all over the place, so just about any especially man, single man walking around but the young girl ten year old, nine year old, girl in any town in the west was suspect. So it was interesting times you write about nearly one month later march. Tenth the body of virginia brooks is found wrapped in burlap, and there are headlines in the paper girl act to pieces by fiend bodies are governed by a sheet men at the at this kearny area. So tell us about the discovery of virginia, brooks your camp curly. Essentially, contrary mason

named after the soldiers of the nineteen. Forty and fifty is eighteen. Fifty two made there was out here as the sheep, her moses and his dog, and sometimes his dog in the newspapers called Shep and sometimes called blackie that this part of the inconsistency sun was out. He first told investigators. He was out walking around because he's a sheepherder later said he was out there. He admitted he was out with his twenty two shooting a tin cans but shap or blackie. The dog went up to this burlap bag and started looking at it and the setting is the vegetation up there on that matter is: is low grass very oh grass, and soon chaparral, creosote, courtesy stuff, so Moses walked over anyone instance. He said the bag was partially opened and he could see the decomposing body of a child. In another view, he said he took out his knife and cut the baggage look inside so long discrepancies? There is about half a mile from the major high.

by that later became three. Ninety five running north and south ran out to the road, was his dog and flag dalla truck driver who then drove in the old town? San diego and called the police police came out with newspaper reporters ass. The investigation opened up the bags, and one of the police officers set as soon as you saw the little red jacket and the dark hair. He knew that they had found virginia, brooks and so then the newspapers, big banner headlines photograph- of her being carried in a coffin, basically to hers. Then the follow up investigation of love. What moses had found an determined Moses said while she wasn't out there a day or two ago. So this is not where she was killed. She was dumped here and indeed and six indicated she had been half buried somewhere and that was they partly investigation was. She said, soil clinging to parts of her body, the hacking

our dan was interesting because the newspapers really played out of it of uneven said nothing. Was there Los angeles paper that she'd been eviscerated did this feeling. gone in and cut out our energy and threw them away, while has in fact it was more likely. The bow in the end, the animals, wherever she was buried self very gruesome for the times view right about a couple, The officers detective paul Hayes contributing to the headlines in the paper being salacious tell us a little bit about their behavior and what they said to the press. You definitely get the impression not all of them, but many of the police officers and more the police and the sheriffs. The limelight, they light being quoted in the newspaper,

They were constantly even in men. Virginia brooks his case were it's kind of hard to be salacious about a ten year old girl and yet kind of describing almost taken up to the edge of describing that she'd been sexually molested. She may or may not have been. The body didn't didn't tell that story, but talking about in the kind of person Do the essen and there are many turns out there doing this two little girls, but I'm gonna find her owen, and this case one go unsolved and clearly he knew the newspapers ones quote, so he was while the first people did in fact talk about that. Her body had been hacked and an end decapitated, and she was not decapitated. king balloon from not the body basically, so he it was plain to the press. He was gonna be tough that year or the next year- and I think he saw this is kind of you last hurrah to get into the new

papers and then to be somebody, and, unlike some of the police, are closer to a quota. He seems dispatch in ways which I guess you could say is good, but it was more like what was important about. This was the case and his work on case rather than the family or her brothers or the poor little girl herself yeah. You write a questionable deaths in san diego required that the decease body be given it autopsy by the medical examiner or by the coroner and based on the autopsy and wes panel or jury might be convened to gather further details on the person's death. Tell us about this coroners inquest and the purpose of it and the reach of the corners in question.

terms of investigative ability Yeah way. It was an interesting time, and this was true across the board. For many things I mean you don't have to go to the police academy to become a policeman or a shower, for instance, you signed up and that they thought you could do it then, and have you got, the joy using political connections in the case of the corner, the corner did not have a lot of training. The way the process would work is body is found and then the police turn it over to the coroner's office to do an autopsy and the coroner than he determines was their potential homicide, an accident in the case of a drowned in was already think that led to the drowning, and if I weren't no criminal act here they did. He decided upon the homicide. If you will then pretty much. The case was closed. He would send that after the police department and the district attorney, they would review it and say no no actionable. Necessity done sometimes that was used

was alleged as a cover up for people who clearly been murdered or probably been murdered, because the police and the sheriff didn't want yet another case her hands. So it just went away in this case and the other young women in the book. The coroner said no clearly, this child was abducted and in some way needs to happen. So then he makes the recommendation that there be an inquest. They saw the autopsy and at the inquest, the last People to see virginia would be called for. Parents would be called the police officer it would be called the person you just go for the body, offices would be called and it was almost like a little many grand jury and the people sitting on the inquest jury had been appointed and they would list to all the information, sometimes inquest, would be one hour. Sometimes maybe a day and then based on that right, the would be turned over for a criminal action. and a grand jury would actually be convened if in fact,

they had any suspects. So the loan different than today tell us about this foreigners, inquest that this callers inquest. It was very touchy. Some of the papers covered it pretty well but they didn't have in this case they didn't have any suspect, because some time at the corners, inquest still enough in a case that we might cover their. They actually brought in a suspect had him at the inquest. In this case I didn't have any any suspects and what was made bleed derived out of, this was you have to identify the body. So you don't know the tv shows today everything whoever goes to the more we cannot rule out the slab, and then you look at it. In this case it was ex lyonnais anymore to worry a private mortuary bright and the mother blanche still refuse to believe this was heard author and she's in a little coffin area, and they slide back loops laughed. So she can look in. Everyone sees a chip tooth and then the badly decomposed face,

her daughter, ngos, oh my god, it is my daughter, so it's a very thorough and I can very touching scene again, of course the newspapers were right there describing of every possible detail So as a result of the inquest, then its it gives kit further and in there no resolution on exactly how she died because the body was in that shape. They repeated the fact that look like she'd been half buried and and parts overhead decomposition parental. There were relief stuck to her dress. That came out, so they tried to look forward these times of palm trees grow, and this is the truly the beginning of the forensic part of it. Then she had three errors clutched him one of her hands. It appears we can sort of get into that. It appears that, though

One of them might have been her own, but a couple were not her own room and get started the forensic side of that investigation. How about the prospect that she was sexually assaulted? How did they deal with it at the inquest and how is it dealt with in the press? Well, in the front, a killer of the preston and for that matter, even in an autopsy report, they rarely used the word rape or sexual. It was, it was kind of understood at that time, that if you talked about typically a female, but it could be a male button, piggly, a female who had been sexually assaulted I believe there is reason to believe that they had been sexually solemn. They simply use the word. Assaulted, viciously assaulted, verses. If but it had been beaten up. They said badly beaten or had trauma those kinds of without the word assault, usually contacts of female met sexual. In this case, it was alluded to

that was the underlying assumptions, not just of the press and the police, but the public that, if a little girl disappeared, then- to be a fiend, it must have been a sexual pervert out there and that's who we need to look for so the autopsy could not define that and then I got copies of these materials. It simply left off, I'd open, whether she had actually been sexually assaulted or not. But but the press picked up on that if you will and to get to the next, not, there will, of course she was sexually assaulted. They didn't use the word sexual, because why else would you kidnap a little girl and in theory keeper for a day or two or three Certainly the assumption was not. She was kept somewhere for a month and then on the mesa, because her body had been clearly decomposing on the ground. So It was always assumed that she was she was assaulted. Sexually give the police are quite aggressive in you, write and questioning suspects,

and they are known for eliciting confessions via the suspect techniques soon after they claim that they have three suspects but tell us about the clearing of those three suspects relatively quickly to church. What the newspaper said- and it certainly would have been corrected- number one. They went out and rounded up all of the usual suspects and then there'd be a calmer and it would say, deviates and you know perverts but all that, so they literally in the sandy, where it did it further dragnet, and if somebody had been arrested before on sexual crime or was even suspected, they rounded him up and they knew no interrogated them with just like in the movies, with a rope upper house or with a set of the nerves. Brass knuckles, wrapped up in cloths eldred on some of these people kept them up all night. You know that the bright light bulb in this. A dark room and all that and one suspect, was a gentleman who it was brought in simply because his

neighbours turned amid because he had a bloody stuff. It is back a tree stump opened his backyard any had palm trees nearby that might have match the the palm leaves and her in Virginia had till he was arrested and as it turned out gosh my grandmother did this. In the same time period he used to kill his own chickens and put him on the stump and cut their heads off and Please, if that's not what happened out there, so he indeed It was the main suspect. The time that went away. There was another job, one who was unknown, deviate and had been arrested for, in fact, molesting. Another girl While this investigation was going on, but he could prove his whereabouts if he will well that morning and he was punished, other crime, and then there was also a couple of other. There was a rich family here in town their son.

was known to like little girls for lack of a better word and he was investigated, but not for very long, and that was kind of the mother blanche said. I think he did it. I think that that little boy that boy- you a teenager came out here was snooping around and I've seen him in the neighborhood and he doesn't believe in it doesn't belong in. neighbourhood were poor folk out. Here was us his boy? Do it out here, but that probably because a family connect- or he had a good alibi. It was released also so after weeks. weeks of investigation it. They were nowhere closer. They had tired tracks, they had the palm leaves another forensic information that they couldn't find a person to go with it. That is as an opportunity to stop or second for these messages. Lucky land casino, asking people watch the weirdest place you ve, gotten lucky lacking in line at the daily against me dentists office more than one actually do. I have to say: yes, you do

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then they who caused this. So in this case, these letters that were made on typically almost like brown paper bags back when such things, stood and printed clurly to try to hide their debt. leave the person. Writing it from the doktor and the doktor basically stole the family and the people he put them on a wind shield of a car nearby, one under a gas station near by a door and then the blanche when John Brooks family themselves and what he basically said was I it was an interesting. Is he wanted to stress that? Yes, he killed her, but he was not a pervert Not a pervert he said did killer, but about a pervert, and that you'll never saw this because I'm harder than you. The police cell was almost like letters of the zodiac. You know many them leads letter onto the police and saint ham, smarter than you annual you'll, never catch me as it and in those letters he somewhat kill again. I'm gonna kill again, and so this

in a town that rarely locked its doors up at night and were killed? did run around in canyons and did walked the mile my will have to school this tunnel shut down by near east san, diego than those neighborhoods, because this monster was out there and he said I'm gonna hunt for other little girls and the fear and the newspaper by that up. Of course, so I will. It was at that time for the parents of, and the egg out, but upon investigation it turns out that it was a teenage boy in his chum who simply wanted HU, as they said be part of the case, be part of the case, so they were hauled in. They were interrogated one of the boys. The doktor himself actually was from a pretty good family, and so I dont know that he was ever punished. I could ever find out any information he was taken to court, but that was the end of a growth of doctors rampaged it. Everybody feared you right. Finally, about march twenty four

nineteen thirty one is the memorial and burial there's four thousand people did attend, but there's only can only whole five hundred inside and six of virginia classmates. All ten year olds were the pallbearers yeah that that was a very but she had seen him for the population of san diego. At the time I was a really large number. I mean you kind of looking at the same time. Period may be somewhat like valentino memorial service or something like that, and every paper, the los angeles papers to san francisco papers, actually sent people down. Didn't just do by teletype bird or by getting the article on and in a directive in writing an article based on an article. They sent reporters down and photographers, and it was, I would say, the funeral of the decade, practically. In san diego, it was huge and the other. The newspaper had a really good photo of the little girl's base. You know, dressed in their little white dresses, her classmates carrying her little coffin out towards the hearse, We taken for burial and a lot of people crying, and it was described as a very

I've seen them with no closure, of course, so it was quite a deal. He writes to add to san diego agnes and paranoia by early may, the press and the police turned their attention to the gruesome murder of a seventeen year old Louise toper bound hand. Sammy nude from an oak tree. Tell us about this discovery. Yeah! That's my favorite story in the book. If you on the favourite, as of all of nine unsolved murders in san diego simply be because I became very attached to the story and we can get into the silhouette my path continued. continued and tin continued, so yeah, one pretty nice, some may morning. This gentleman, Tomas Martinez and his family are gonna, walk the picnic on a sunday morning, which especially back then was a more common when you didn't have conditioning and television at home, and so he takes his family to a very very remote area. There was used for picnicking anna was kind. The lover's lane, big oak trees, really beautiful, cynical

four flows near by and keen park the car and left his wife and kids to get the picnic basket in the thermos bottle, with juice and coffee in it, and he walks down to find it weird place for a picnic and as he comes around one of the corners of the grove of oak trees, he sees this woman hanging from a tree with her feet. Just actually the heels over feet scraping the ground just barely touched the ground, and she's nude, except for her silk stockings, actually, imitation, silk stockings and pursues, and so he runs back to his wife and says no, we can't there's a terrible thing. We can't go there so then he drives, and to the sheriff's office and alert them. They come out again newspaper reporters in tow and start to invest. the of the of the terrible death of Luis. So that's how that's how her body was discovered in it Again she hadn't gone missing. She was seventeen years of age, thieves and a fair amount of time out of the house on dates with a lot of

different young men very vexatious footballers, dating, went swimming, went up in aeroplanes with a friend of hers who was a pilot, so she was called what they call then a modern girl what that met. While she was different than her elder sisters or her mom, for instance, t smoke cigarettes keep state out late. She listened the new big ban music. Instead of their walter's, the pope and all that stuff, so suddenly have a newspaper account, you know new victim and it started out the salacious system of it, then, was the voluptuous girl found hanging from a tree. The well rounded girl in older the modern girl found hanging from a tree. Then that starts this for. He has Louise tauber, you introduce said this. The detective george h, brereton the assumes a position of deputy

sheriff and he had studied under renown. Criminologist you write august volmer at the university of California. Berkeley tell us about their investigation and what they determine from the crime scene and specifically, the rope that was she was hanging from yeah. This is a time when criminology was really new in the sense of we would think of criminality. and it was just really getting ahead of steam, and so he was brought down from up north, and he has studied it. You see berkeley and his thing was finger. Prints were worked pretty well known, but he was really get in the finger printing getting into the forensics of love. In this case, as you mentioned, the rope the tire tracks can we get tired max out of this and figure something out. What really was the condition of the body? So ok, the coroner says this, but what else can we find out about it? So he was like you know, a man, dog trying to figure this thing out and at first the newspapers kept playing up the road that hey weakens figure this out by the robe because

it's not a normal rope, a common rope it to rope that used typically by the navy, but by the military, and also the way it was, tied was. It was in a way that nay, even men, with no men who tie yup. Those are men who worked on boats would know, so it is, but somebody has to has to be something with the navy and she was probably a hundred and fifteen pounds. So this rope was thrown over a limb, the oak tree and then old, so you'd have to be strong enough to pull it up So you're right is wrote. It was all about the rope initially and they been reviewed people. They thought they might have found the rope where they come from from it actually driver who usually like that to get somebody on the mud, but in fact it wasn't that role, and it went on and on and then they moved away from the rope. It will look at the tire tracts of course investigated. Everybody who had donor, but it's almost like parallel investigations. He was looking at them forensic side of it and the fact that she has done

down her shoes worded that red dust come from. What else can we get from the rope? Let's look at her. She had a diary with her. Can we pool fingerprints offer that die? so he's looking at it in the very scientific way that we would today, certainly whereas the police is more typically out there in reviewing and she had a lot oliver boyfriends people who knew her. Who saw her last. You know she was downtown working in the downtown five and dime store and got off at five. Do her last paycheck said He was gonna, go to chicago to see her grandparents and get out of san diego cause. It was dead and then It's time she seen his hanging from this tree in a in what's now a park, he write it in nineteen thirty six, the breyer ten is working with criminologist, frank gompers of los angeles, and they hear of a serial killer with an alias interested in it called slip

and fell, but his real name is ralph. Jerome VON braun tell us about this interrogation and its results. Yeah VON braun was in fact a killer and had killed at least a couple of people, and today he would probably believe he was mentally deranged, but he had actually The ex wife of the governor of NOME alaska had beaten to death and when he was arrested, he inferred tat. He had killed other p and yes, when he was ass, they tenant as more leading questions back then in the interrogations when he was asked. If he knew of the death of Luis. He said, oh absolutely, and so even five years later, Five years later, the police and the criminologists were desperate defined this person because he thought found. Yes, we still out there and maybe he's clean other people, so he was not the only ones on burma, not the only one that there were men who were arrested for crimes who either they want their name in the newspaper they wanted to be part of.

investigation it wanted to make themselves bigger than they were in terms of their murder cause. I assume they were probably gonna be executed anyhow, and so this went on for asian days, Santiago police went up and interviewed him and it turned out to be a dead end, but he was not in san diego right at that time, although he had said he was, and other people said he was. He wasn't that weak in Santiago. He was off somewhere else, but that ruling out played up because it extent beyond san diego. It was more of a san francisco northern california angle. If you will to those papers up there, the hearst papers early played played that up, and you know the police would have if they could have, they would dependent on him to get them with his case and then close. The case book can be finished up, but it didn't work out that way for them Let use this as an opportunity to stop for a second to these messages

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when they go down to the race track or go down and gamble or drink alcohol, because provision wasn't in effect an t dated different girls about a different girls. In fact, and for a while he was a suspect because he he had been with luis the night before on a friday night saturday night at a party, and they were known to be pretty close. But this is developed partially later at the time that paper simply said he had a good alibi that he had been somewhere else that night. Well, so that's where the police left it at the time and then how it looked like they live. At the time, and so in my initial draft of this book he doesn't play but you have a role, but I had an article printed as it from a chapter of this book in a local newspaper called reader, some newspaper magazine and a gentleman call me a car, tat with me as a result of that article and said hey, I few people. In your story, I'm doing the mouth on that going, I dont see others possible, but he was

his knees and he knew surround smith tourism. As an old man in his thirty's had been the aeronautics engineer that help this this guy tom, who called me, I get his license and they hung out together. Tom was seventeen, and this guy was in his thirties and one day as they're driving back towards the rural part of the county, Tyrell smith pulls off. The road goes down a dirt road parks they get out and he points to a big oak tree he said that the nineteen thirty one a girl I was daily was found, hangs from that treat, and so then he starts telling the story of Louise and and mentions Oh by the way they said she was hanged and that's true, but that's not how she died. She died from oral population. She died from asphyxiation right. That's how she actually died and gave some more details, some suddenly, when now I got this guide and he's telling me all this interesting stuff. So I called my friend

to be used to work with a medical examiner. As the assistant I said you ever hear of cases of oral copulation for death when she goes oh yeah, in with sex workers, occasionally. That does happen so that put me into a little different angle of things: men guy called the older gentlemen back Tom. What else can you tell me about your friend, sir I'll, but he was around Did twenty was seventy years old for having oral population with two young girls, so he kind of bubbled up to the surface and the sheriffs department will not released the records to me any their records because its concern and open case and under california, while their exams, they don't have to release records that are or an open case, but one of the lieutenants in the cold case files would talk to me casually about it, and when I mentioned several smith, she looked him up and found the notes. Basically, at the time he did look good for it, but the

improve it in end his alibi by the way he was by himself walk into ballpark, but he wrote to the top of my suspect. Let us stop salute like now, when you speak about rising to the top of your suspect. Less tell us about how herman newbie becomes a person of interest yeah, and he still live I would thus take my life nor yours down on, on which one of these two gentlemen, it might have been, I'm pretty sure It was one of them, I suppose newbies like stubby, my favorite so herman newbie was a retired down navy officer in his forty and lived a few box from Louise, and he was amateur photographer and he take photographs the young women, beautiful young women and then think from them, and he was invested yet because he was a neighbour and he knew that top family. So when the police went to his house, they found

all these new photographs of young women and they found several of luis and she was a year younger. Even she was sixteen, so they arrested him on a moral charge of obscene photographs and then I said, and we think you probably killed her and his wife alibi them out his wife, bessie alibi them out as at all, no we rocket his cabin up and up in the mountains, and they asked me let him go on a murder case. If he will, he went to the trial was found guilty, but to jail for six months while he was in jail. His wife left him divorced him. So I researched family and found out. The german government had a daughter still alive and her nineties, living in texas must never married so marriage by road or a letter. Then I said: hey you wanna, history of a murder. a neighbour that your father lived in back in the thirties before you were born. Did he ever talk about it a pretty big deal, and I didn't ask any leading questions I simply said go, but what did he have to save anything about it and her name is dying

and- and I and wrote very nice letter back and said the almost the opening line is well professor carrico. You didn't mention it, but if you think my father killed that little girl, he probably did, and so that gonna knock my socks off, and so we We conversed back and forth by e mail and by written letters for six months herself and he said the reason I think this is he sexually lasted me from the time I was nine until I was seventeen I did beat my mother and said that all women were whores and prick teasers. And she went on and on which I get in to look at more in the book, so he needs to say, rose right up to the top. I did ask her, I said, did your father. We have a case where your mom might have AL by demand for something, She gave me an instance where, yes, he'd, been a terrible bar fight, almost killed somebody in a neighbouring county, a poem the sheriff came to talk to him is, she buy him out

and why would your mother do that? But he threatened to kill her, and I think that's what happened was louis topper south have dinner means motive, opportunity when I really deep into the alibi that his wife had provided for the night of the death of Luis it broke down to they actually got home about nine thirty, eight or ten, and the estimated time of death was around midnight. So he had two hours to potentially meet up with luis take her out. There may be for a photo, shoot. You know in a nude out there and something went wrong so he's he still right at the top of my list, and the shares departments still has some of the evidence and less lieutenant elisa brannan at the charter. Parliament is, is pursuing both virginia, brooks and always topper case. Try to close out the cases they they still have. Some of the evidence plenty some years later, while they write motive, means opportunity but unindicted. Let's get to this other credit story, may nineteen thirty one boyscout headquarters there,

Abandoned village lit the sort of our fake indian village, a tube, boys a nine year old richard and just his friend ten year old spot. A fully clothed girl at first heard this before they think it might be. A mannequin tell us about this crimes, yeah again, you know assigning thirty one another on a sunday morning or whenever these boys have been downplaying on the canyons and need our doing whatever kids did back then thrown rocks and chasing around probably and they come up to the boy scout headquarters, which is up on a mesa top and what they want to do is go in and try to get an application to join the boy scouts. But it's closed it's sunday and they're sitting up on a wall, We war and this old indian village had been part of an exposition out here years before and won the voiceless over the wall and sees what they thought was a mannequin fell, a store. They just. Then they go to look at it and then they realize it's not american. It's a dead girl, sudan, yes, the young woman, so

run the several blocks to while the voice houses- and they tell them on- and she had first is incredulous enough. Now I've got was a mannequin or a dummy, no mom. This was a dead girl, so she goes with them. sale put your dress on a walks down there, and indeed it is a dead girl and though she then called the police from a nearby pay phone back when pay phones existed and caused the police and they come out, and now the investigation starts. The third one in this case, in less than a couple of months, of his thoughts Bradshaw, who was about twenty two years old and police, come right away, paper reporters collide away. They photographed the heck out of the scene blood on the ground and they can tell despite visuals looking at on the ground, she'd been stabbed multiple times more than five more than ten lots of times, and so there That's the crime scene and that's the beginning of the investigation. Instead easily enough that, maybe not for that time periods when they took

body away and they taken the photographs they didn't coordinate, offer early sleeve somebody there to guard the crime scene. They were done with it. I and sell it make finding a weapon are getting other information later, very, very difficult. What was the newspaper response in los angeles of the police in san diego well los angeles in san diego baseball aside, I've always had a competition going on, but this one sided. petition. In some way off angeles has always been more populous. You know had more museum whose blah blah blah, but the newspapers up there really were very scathing towards the police department down here and the newspapers down here. but very scathing about oh yeah. Here's another one day We knew that the last boss, angeles did in the last six or nine months, never several unsolved murders, and so there was even a yeah. It you're a writer known at the time, and he did a little cartoon and a little article about it

so yeah. Yet another one. These people down a san, diego, wouldn't know how to their clothes out a case. If you know their life depends on it and they even cited los angeles times, provided some police the los angeles samia, very shoddy work. These people dont know what they're doing they'll be lucky if they can solve anything so distant sandy papers have to write back. You know in their editorials and everything now we're doing everything we can and build. This isn't los angeles. We do things a little differently down here, so there's just all this spill over in all these cases, but in the hazel bradshaw cases, the spill over of my camp sandy go get this right. We thought you were just a lay back on tell whose killing your young women, you know what's going on there, use the word serial killer. Is it wasn't popular yet, but they did use the word mass murderer and humble times it may be. One person, is doing all these these murders and you guys

on saturday the solvent now now what they do is they focus on this likely suspect, moss garrison and who he is Louise's date. The night of her death, so there is at the crime scene, is evidence that she fought her attacker, and so it makes a lot of sense that they might first focus on moss garrison, but tell us about this that it leads to this coroners inquest once it and yeah moss, had been her boyfriend for quite a while. Often he and he was older. She was twenty two and he was in his mid thirties, then married before he was a southern guy described. The newspaper made a big deal out of the little look. She was small short as the little southern boy, little stubborn guy, and they had gone downtown san diego. He picked her up at work by foot. He lived downtown, she lived up out of town a little bit and they went to not one but two movies too different.

Groovy houses at popcorn at some chop. It bars, which came into the autopsy later on and then walked home at eleven o clock at night. They left a movie theater downtown on a pretty well evening and this unbelievable to most people today but walk the more than five miles to her house, which they had done before. People saw them along the route He says he got our home, sir. Or go in the house, and then he ran to the to the street car barely caught them. Twelve o five street car five after midnight went on. He turned himself in when he was told he was playing cards, morning of her death that hey this body had been found in the park and here's your name and all this stuff because oh, my god, this my girlfriend. So he ran down for himself in he was cabin jail. He probably was in fact beaten He was threatened by the chief of police and at the inquest yalta. see an inquest. They actually brought him in as a suspect.

As a boyfriend and the last person who had seen her alive till he was there with the father of the four easel and The police actually wanted him to wear the same clothes he had on because when he was arrested because it was some blood inside one of his pockets, and I want to share any hadn't shade for several days and the police wanted him frankly too low, because that is could do the inquest people. They allowed him to shave they allowed into clean his hair, but he was wearing the same sure. At the same time, the same jacket and the same pants as you walked in the police department in an that's some of the eurozone in the thoroughly this was the man. This was the man, so at the inquest she'd been stabbed, love twelve times, there was some dispute about that with a two inch wide blade double sided blow it, not single cited and still am hobby, initially standing up and then stabbed after she had fallen on the ground and there was no

evidence of what they called at the time, assault, meaning sexual assault, and so then it moved it I'll bet he was indicted and and put on trial for the murder the mosque. Garrison was tell us about. a trial and does he testifying is on the fence he and it was every decade, seems to have the trial of the century down here in san diego nineteen, thirty one that was the trial of the century. Because you know I was wrong in those a romantic thing about it: gosh we. Finally, we finally get to solve one. our motor cases, and I think that's why I went to trial the district attorney. The chief of police work, hand in hand, and was held in the old courtroom down downtown, and you had a ticket to come and to be part of the audience to watch the trial, and they were actually a couple of times the they had to clear the courthouse, because there were too many people dying to see. This trial and the newspapers covered it, including

los angeles and san francisco newspapers to all this evidence was, was brought forth. He admitted dinner but yeah he'd been out with her, of course, and partially it came down to what was the color of the thai. Did. He was wearing that night because Drink are conductor in and some other people said it was the one color and yet there, no blood on that tie in his closet. He caught himself. He worked in the kitchen about places. Restaurant basically any cut himself. A couple days before the prosecutor said no, that's not from days before that from stabbing were easily. Today but his poker body set all now three days before the killing he had bandages on his hands and all of that till he did and people did it a little bit more back them is attorney who survive we're gonna journey, but him on the stand and he was a pretty sympathetic, Witness a few well said he loved her. No way would he four stabbed her to death. She seen some other people and maybe

It was one of those folks. The neighbors have have a store said: oh yeah. This is where it gets into the kind of victimology blaming the dictum some of the neighbors said: oh yeah. Well, we used to see her out in cars late at night. She would go somewhere men at midnight, at one o, clock and drive away with them and seen awesome the old ladys of the neighborhood. They stress that the defence said well yeah. He dropped her off They were dealt with that date and then she apparently has some other rendezvous with somebody else. Nets who killed her several trial went on and on and on, and then the jury deliberated at less than an hour before they they gave. their verdict and the vertical as unanimously what the verdict was unanimously not guilty and in fact, in interviews afterwards, with the newspaper, the jury foreman said, we don't even know it we don't even know why he was ever put on trial, and they said, of course, is this little gentle southern man could not have done that he was in love with her. Meanwhile, the killer still out there

maybe it's a killer of other women as well. The captain of the jury. Actually said: well, I don't think I don't and it was even an american person- I think, a public- in person person killed her because only foreign people kill women with knives. So there was a racial or ethnic undertones to do this this case, if he will, but he felt the jury felt that sheep that he had taken how it all made sense he had time to get back to the street car on time. It wasn't covered in blood anywhere people, I've seen them along the route and so sadly the the aid and then the police chief and the major detectives on the case at the put their tails queen their legs and and go on harassed by the president, later so who you looking into now, and they said I'm looking at anyone is cases over essentially cell three unsolved murders before I let you go you do right somewhat in your afterward. Tell us about what you have to say about the

Idea of suspects still in your mind, bore the three murders. Tell us about that yeah. This was continent. It's an afterward. There was also an afterthought because part of what I did in doing research for this, especially toward the end I had the manual pretty well along at a publisher that was interested actually couple publishers and I decided to go visit. All these. These scenes some time after the summer from teaching, and so I walked that route from on tat, san, diego after hazels house, and I made it in less than an hour, and so they could have. I went to the movie theatres that most all round that Louise topper had gone to with her friends walk places, and so that helped then I also realise I grew up her in san diego. I had walked the very same streets that that hazel and read then mars had walked down in nineteen thirty one and that I had gone the same high school as always because its

they'll. There is all the oldest high school and virginia brooks walking out on euclid avenue. I use deliver newspapers out there. When I was fourteen thirteen, so it was this Almost crescendo smells and sounds and then streets themselves, some of which had not changed a lot and I felt very vested in it. The man who wrote the man from the train murder miss. three about an ax murderer. You said he got very emotionally vested in their shells very personal towards these killers are towards the victims, and that's how I felt and so part of what I did then, when I went back into the manuscript and tried to bring the young women more back to life, make them more than just victims, or more than just a body on a more slab or someone needle being carried by new classmates to your grave site, practically because it became very personal. What I also thought is well back in the day when

you pulled into a gas station and gas was twenty cents or thirty cents. A gallon. The guy pumping the gas there were, my neighborhood in east san diego could have been the killer, while the guy running the streetlamp could have been the killer right, yeah, and so I could have been walk assuming they didn't leave the area. They were still with us you believe it was three different people, so somewhere nino back in the late fifty The early sixties, when I was walking around final, the guy about us guard from killed Luis. Yes, I want to thank you very much richard l, kara we're coming on and talking about your book monsters on the loose the true story of three unsolved murders in prohibition era- san diego. Thank you. So much for this interview for those that might want to take another look tell us about where they might look specifically civically, while blue press, so yeah wildly as is the publisher. They fell. Based on other book a true, murder, her in san diego. That was not solve the earlier. You can go to its available. The book is now on amazon, o soft and hard bound.

Barnes and noble, and I have my own website, for those of you in the southern california area called asked, shadows, dot, net, asked shadows dot net list the places all between books. I names and presentations on this. I've actually been invited by the sheriffs department entrusting enough to do and give them a presentation till the book just launched. A couple some days ago, and I'm getting some good reviews from different folks and I think dan- and I were talking before this- this podcast itself, he he enjoy reading it and thought it was pretty well researched and had a good story to it down. I'm glad to get this story out for you. these three young women and I'm gonna go to the park. Actually luis toddler was found, and then I'm going to that park in a couple of weeks and given a presentation there, audibly less than three hundred yards from the ogre offers he was found hanged. So I really think it as richard l, kericho monsters on the loose the truth.

We have three unsolved murders and prohibition era- san diego, thank you. So much was interview and have a great evening beggars and ok round to name something: that's not boring laundering a book club computer solitaire I'm sorry we're looking for chum buck casino. That's right! China, because you know that companies over a hundred casino style games, joined today and play for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes, jumbo casino, dotcom, never set by locating plus translated into policy, etc. Details