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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, DDT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder. With your host journalist and author Dan ask you get eating in the middle class neighbourhood of Muscle Hill, underneath a spectacular residents located at twenty three gravelly gardens. A gruesome discovery was about to be on earth, while working on drainage pipes of the house at that location, a plumber discovered several bones and flesh like substance covering the inside of the pipes, the pipes led to the top floor apartment of the residence

It was ready to Dennis Nielson a thirty seven year old, quiet, soft spoken civil servant. Nelson was also a retired policemen with military service. Shockingly, the police were about to discover. Dennis Nielson was also one of Britain's worst serial killers book there were featuring this evening is drinks, dinner and death, the true story of This Nielsen, with my special gas journalists and other and composed of how some mystery radio programme. Alan are worn. Welcome back to the programme and thank you very much for green his interview. Alan are worn. Well, thank you for inviting me to pleasure. Thank you. It's always a pleasure, especially given that you tackle some of the worst

and most infamous killers of all time for opiate. For this program. I think I believe, let's get right to the early years of Dennis Andrew Nilsen. As you said, born in November. One thousand nine hundred and forty five in Aberdeenshire Scotland I'll tell us a little bit about his early life growing up, what characterize bad while he was the middle of three children and his parents they were from actually It came from Norway, what they did was they escaped during the nazi occupation? In forty two, I believe it was so is his parents were from Norway, so you it, even though he was born in Scotland. and it now his father had a

real affinity like he really wanted to free Norway until he was he continued to fight in us. Our group and was not at home. Very much so most of his chop by few was raised with his mother and the grandparents and its grandfather had the largest influence on him. And, of course in that area of fishing and the fishermen trade was The big work you know for that for that part of the country and so his grandfather was a fishermen by trade so that's kind of how they started. That's how he lived in. He spent a lot of time with it. Grandfather and, of course, somewhat siblings, but he was able

major early influenced by his grandfather and that would be his mother's parents right. You write in October, nineteen fifty one you said he wasn't close to a siblings while of course was grandfather in October. Ninety fifty one, his grandfather died of a heart attack, tell us about this odd incident at home, how he discovers the news about his grandfather and tell us about this year. It was. It was strange in the fact that so much time in his gun, other died of a heart attack, it sixty two and he was out fishing in the North sea. So it's not like that was highly unusual, but when they got his body back home sort of built a little homemade coffin and put him in the kitchen And so on, I had no idea about this and was,

school and when he came back from school, of course, mother said well, would you would you like to see grandfather needed. He of course, there was no warning or anything. So she just took him right into the kitchen where he was laying on this homemade sort of coffin open and he was dead, and it really shocked Dennis seeing one his grandfather dead and you don't his mind. He would. He would always say why didn't know he was sick. I didn't know how that could be like what. How did this? happened, so he really shocked him to the core. and I think that gave him a huge fear of abandoned he'd. He just one so scared of being alone. You know his father was really not around and Anne did leave. This is

mother in the family and never come back, and then have the grandfather he was close to just die of hardtack. that you say that he also refused to be involved with family of events or activity. So he really became a different person as a result of this trauma that even that it he experienced with his ground, others destiny here he he became really withdrawn. It become really quiet and He spent a lot of time on the harbour and watching boats and unjust and spending there. He didn't really interact with the family. After that point, it sort of some sort of separated them the death of the grandfather. What relationship they did have an end, so he was totally

totally away from the men the spending time in in his own mind, I guess trying to cope with the situation of his grandfather and, And what he wanted to do was probably with life and done an end heap. He was quite panicked forward as well according to some of his own writings, he would see himself out Merci and see himself being covered ends are we drowning and even always. dream of his grandfather coming to rescue him or are fantasize about that. So in his own mind he was quite term. I don't know what he was he was. He was dealing with that death in that way and by himself. You dont will shortly after the divorce and father leaving and never see them again,

mother moved into their own place with the three children and re married to someone name. Andrew Scott did Dennis appreciate this person. What was the treatment he received from this person at the helm, of address. Well, it seemed a in his mind. He never like this TAT father and he felt that term. That is Stepfather was very, you know, strict and end in always give him discipline like always always be punishing them, for every little thing Did it wouldn't matter when it was, he would be being punished where's his elder brother. He would who he would compare himself too, of course seem to be a favourite of the new US, their new stepfather, so he became very jealous of his brother. Any became really hateful of of this Andrews Scott, the new step father. He just.

I just didn't want to be around him so that that even isolated and more now, let's move to you talk about nineteen. Fifty five family moved to help them process right right, striking about twelve kilometers away and his sexual development is beginning to be revealed so tell us what happens in his teens. What his attraction is is interaction with his younger sister and with his brother. All of. Well a year when they moved. Was more inland, so you sort of was forced to be in the house more and so he started. having due to interact with the family and dumb his baby sister. He really got along with well, he started to become closer with her and they would play games together and do things I think be,

ass. She was younger and he didn't feel so so pressured and tat she was a girl were the older brother in and father, and all that step father they had a. strict manly, sort of way about them, and so sixteen he really started feeling attraction to other men, and it really confused him. Of course he didn't wanna. Tell people like me, then you to remember this. In a long forties fifties people in the air and at times back then it was thought It's not it's not a good thing, and it was illegal and, so he kept it totally. Secret he felt really bad about it, the bad side of that or what what he had to endure was sitting around and listening to his family. They really bad things about homosexuals, can only they too.

Really really badly about it, and even the few friends he had at school were the same way there. You know these the he had. No, so he was really kind of isolated. That way. It was around this time he started to fondle or touch his his younger sister, a little bit sick really and damp. in order to his own writings Dennis said that this was because he wanted to see if he could be sexually turned on by a female. He wanted to see if he could always start that and then have a way of gaining control over sexuality because the

the other young man that he was looking at him answer to had sexual attraction to. He couldn't seem to turn that off. So I guess he was thinking while in off. I have some experience with a woman or a female that would turn that part of him on and that that that that wasn't gonna work here now and the end, then, of course he had two shares bed with all of which was the older strict rather and tat. He would try you found a lower touch his brother and pray. In his private areas, when all was sleeping, Of course, you know that's going to lead to no good and eventually Allah broke up once and cotton when confronted him die

and I started calling him names and start calling him sissy and assent like him. You knows what they used and Scott Scum Scotland for that. So you know he started, he started trying to deal with his sexuality himself and found himself getting into trouble. By doing this, you write when Nelson was fourteen he decided to join Army cadets any considered an escape from his parents and what he thought was stifling little town, easy excelled in school in history and arts, but wasn't good at sports whatsoever have job in London last long, but in nineteen sixty one based on, I guess his experience in the army cadets he decide. The list in the army tell us about his experience in the army and, though

what he did in that service. Here he wasn't. He was your right. He wasn't really athletic. He was not. He was not strong. He was not, A sports figure, nothing like that, so he will end and he was artistic and more Based on, I guess his experience in the army cadets. He decide. The list in the army tell us about his experience in the arm Cook and they were train him to be a chef eventually and so he started spending time cooking and working with the men in that way he wasn't a soldier, so so so to speak, like he was an battling and and stuff yet to learn some of the basics but especially was and be cooking. And of course you know so he had quite a few problems being an inner barracks with army personnel, because here

the they would all shower together, and he would be very afraid of that he would. He had a real problem controlling and he didn't want even want to become a roused in the shower and have other army guy see this so he would wash himself privately in the bathroom like with a sink and stuff, and I and according to his writings he would find himself masturbating a lot in in the bathrooms because of the sexual attraction, was. He was around all these men, these built man that were the strong and good looking and and that's a sort of what he was dealing with success. How he did it there and that was in the first base and then, of course, you got sent to West Germany, and it was much the same by by then he had passed is examined, become a full fledged share

I guess you could say in the army, so he was creating menus as well as cooking. You also say that from reports at that time from all report, steps to counter his shyness. He drank quite a bit at that time in the army, yeah you're here he could find you know if anything. At that time he was kind of being pushed to interact with the other officers more end, and he could only seem to let go when he drank and the press. I was here you're a real problem, trying to figure out how much he could drink without giving away his fantasies of of wanting to have sex with the men. So you know I mean he saw he was still cautious aboard

without giving away his fantasies of of wanting to have sex with the men. So you know I mean he's so he was still cautious aboard it's interesting to include a story that I hadn t read the entire version of, but in nineteen sixty seventy phase station and Aden, South Yemen and is working as a cook for the owl monsieur prison. A very. dangerous, interesting to I m. A much more dangerous station read the entire version of, but in nineteen sixty the were attacked you right from locals when Aden, South Yemen and work with were killed. Ah tell us about Nielsen's experience dangerous prison and I M a much more dangerous station than any one he had experienced before and often the were attacked you right from locals when several men Nilsen work with were killed. Tell us about Nielsen's experience The taxi driver peace were things that he said that he was attacked to beaten unconscious by was taxi driver.

You know so. These peace were things that were going on, but this happened to him and end. He was beaten unconscious right, so and he was able to escape by by hitting the driver over the head with a tired was in the trunk and he found himself away. I dont understand something strange about that story and there is more to it than that too. But Tom did you know it's kind of of he's kind of a weird story and he did not have the character to be aggressive,

At times so what you know with fear what you know just a whole thing kind of, but it sure gives you a kind of us, an insight to where he was going to hand further on in his life kind of some fifty foreshadowing. I yes, certainly now you talk about the about some of the fantasies fantasy life that homosexual fantasy life that he was having at that time. What were some of the things that he was fantasizing to replace his non interaction with homosexual men? Didn't wanna, dare doing anything to jeopardize his time in the army. He had always at times. So what you know with fear what you know just a whole thing kind of rum, but it sure gives you a kind of an insight to where he was going to hand further on in his life kind of fifty four shadowy. I yes, certainly now you talk about the about some of the fantasies, the fantasy life, that he was sexual fantasy life that he was having at that time. What were some of the things that he was fantasizing to replace his non interaction with almost sexual men didn't wanna, dare doing anything to jeopardize his time in the army he had always

later that he it was about time of his life. So what was his fantasy life consisting consisting of well look, why he was? He was a cook and he had his own room. He didn't have to share in the banks. pretend or have his fantasy, and he would have different nears placed in different places. He had a couple of them and it would be on the side of the bed or a kind of upwards almost where you could see almost above them, but not quite kind of up in a corner, is being the side of the bed or kind of upwards almost where you could see almost above them, but not quite kind of up in a corner, and- and he would do this sort of thing, because he would he would he had to would dream of one where he would be unconscious and he would dream of that would come and have sex with him and then That would come and have sex with the and one and he he would have sex with someone that was unconscious. he would have sex with someone that was unconscious started, getting darker in the sense that different soldiers that he had worked with her head interacted with that work.

started getting darker in the different soldiers that he had worked with her interacted with that work It would be make it and on his bed and they He would have sex with them he would have sex with them. and to see an end. The main thing for him was he he didn't. It was his way of having sex with men and nobody knowing it at that person did No, nobody knew it was him that did it

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Three months trying to figure out his next move and during this time the family or the already knew their attitude, but they watch a documentary on tv about homosexuals. Tell us about this of that and the result he added that the documentary his home homosexuality had become legal in in a lot of the countries in the late sixties and early seventies, depending on which three and what what the problem was. There were still a huge amount of people that were against it and so the Duff memory that the family was watching was was kind of like a news broadcasts on on what to watch for on the homosexual, like they're, they're, really dangerous and nails smile and take your kids and for a ride like it was a real negative sort of thing. And made them look really bad and and really disgusting, and

I knew it was a hard hard place for him to be one they're sitting there watching this end, all talking really badly about this. So he turned and told them. He told his mother right then that but I am one of those I'm homosexual, and you know, big argument happened in their fathers, TAT Father the whole family got into it battle and he'd ended up leaving here he left after the fight and tat. He actually never really spoke to him again. He would get a few letters from his mother and send a few, but it was very distance between them for the rest of his life. That was kindly yet in the family size he was dirty disgusting. And they want nothing else to do with interesting. Now

Nilsen moves to London enjoys them, joins the metropolis police unbelievably in nineteen. Seventy three tell us about his work. As a police officer have successfully was that occupation. Will you seem to be doing well here as a police officer? That's what, started actually, and he was in London, so he started actually visiting gay pumps and places of meetings. And he would he would have encounters, but this this you know, did this wasn't gonna last long, because there was too much. Java conflict between being gay and being a policeman you know was just it was to too much extreme, especially in those days it was just

put him right out, so it didn't last long by December of that same year he ended up just resigned. and just leaving an end. He was. He was He had a little bit of financial help because when a step farther past that here earlier. He had left him a thousand pounds and that was a lot of money back then the it carried you alarm way, so he was able to quit and he went to being a security guard part time and that was kind of good enough for him for a while until you, too. I think it was early summer of seventy four and He started working for the government ass, a civil servant, which I found a much much easier thing for him to do, because you know he was an amongst all the police officers and he could convey. New to meet other men on the side and kind of habit,

encounters and it wouldn't be a conflict it. Yes, he said he was respected and considered in our great worker and active Selden his new position and came permanent position, and then he relocated to Kentish, Kentish town, London November nineteen. Seventy five and you talk about David Gala. Can twenty year old, was about this encounter in November nineteen. Seventy five with Nelson, oh yeah yeah. He into this room, was kind of one of his few relationships, he had met up with David in in a pub in London and what it was was David was being pushed around and being,

Made fun of by two older guys and they recalling a names and all this in an he kind of split up the fight he kind of got in the middle of it. and David away from them and they eventually walk back to David Place, we're staying at a hostile in in it the districts and dumb here that this this kind of a little blurry here. Workers was couple judgment stories. Does he ended up staying the night with David accordingly, him, they didn't have sex, but according to David, has different times said that they did have sex so either way they end up deciding that they would not good will remain and because David was just add, a hostile Lee decided to move and together they saw they actually found a larger place from where he was staying at that

how they found the now rose, Avenue Place they moved in their whose fordable large the garden had we're part The property was really nice, he was on the low, lower level type thing so really perfect place. It was like a home. And that's how it started. Yet. You say that Nilsen really took to this this relationship and he was the head of the household. He decorated the home and maintained a big garden in the back of the residents, and it was that certain Nelson was used to giving orders being a civil servant and been in charge and David at that time was submissive. This relationship, or laugh at eighteen months,

you were talking about, so that must have been this semblance of normalcy for these people to in terms of relationship for Nielsen. Tell us what happens after the eighteen months and why. Well, you know, there's there's some of the films from homemade films from back then to hinder cutting to David term. He felt very controlled by Nelson. He felt tat he felt like This ordered around and pushed around, and- it got to where he felt scared almost have being home and you know eventually in the relationship they they split and went into separate rooms in them started, bringing home people they just made it even more tents, you know it, it was it was. It was almost confrontational at times

and saw that I wasn't gonna last in Seoul David, just up and left moved away and so Nelson came home one day and David was gone, and it really it really broke his heart and he according to his own memorize. He he had brought back the pain of one he came home to his grandfather being dead, so it was pretty devastating form yeah, and you stated after that, you didn't have a long term relationship after that. Maybe two weeks tops and then you introduce another character: Martin Hunter Craig or Martin Tucker, an eighteen year old

tell us about his encounter with Nelson well, you know in Martin, Tucker was eighteen year old, he was, he was an especial school and and he was dying, nosed with emotional and stability. Problems? He was really. A kind of a little messed up any question his own sexuality, which people were doing it again in the in the feel of the country in the region. It was still considered a pretty bad thing to be. Gay like this was something that you need to fix. Our need to go see some wanted to hear. But fixed. He knows that the mentality with that way. and so that we can another one of this emotional problems I just kind of how was it is it is how they don't with it, and so

You know the two of them heated up and were kind of on and off for while, but it never really lasted long, and then they should have with drink, have dinner, have sex just kind of saps the nice conversations between them data fairly regularly like that dumb, but not all the time it would be kind of sometimes once or twice a month. it was for soul That was pretty good for four for him, but he didn't. He wasn't Getting the companionship he wanted. Nelson was looking for more. a long term and in he wanted someone to fill the spot of of his axe, who had just laughed and the night create wasn't really gonna do it, damn an end. He also

problems with The hygiene- I guess Nelson was really strict and Craig wasn't in, and so they would have issues like bad name. Craig was not a good housekeeper You know I just said that the two of them were not going to were to work out, so they didn't last long and end they started looking at other places for other people now seems at another failed attempt at relationship this is it stops going to bars said it made him feel insecure and not good enough for anybody, but drank Christmas holiday of nineteen. Seventy eight again Nelson find himself alone restless in need of some company, and he goes to a pub.

there. You tell us about this person that he finds being yelled at a bar tender again tell us it was. Your name was Stephen homes and ass. He was only fourteen years old He was trying to get liquor at the pub and of course they were They were given I'm a bad time and, of course the bartender wasn't gonna sell and he was rather boisterous and loud and we tell the bartender where to go and eight they sort of. It was like a kind of a big fight to get liquor. India. And he was. He was really attracted to this kid, and so, when the did, the kid stronger the front door Nelson basically,

doubt and chased him to find out. What would what happened and why why he was in a fight. Even he thought the kid was seventy, so they saw the Stephen Homestead look older than he was and that's it wasn't like an obvious young kid trying to buy liquor, someone that looked older and of course they em, they end up going back to Nelson's house in having few drinks and fell asleep, and that was kind of how the story of how they met and the thing that happened was the next morning when Nelson woke up homes was sleeping and he started term. getting these ideas of how home stay right through the new year's holidays, but

I say we can a little bit evil because in his mind it was he was gonna stay where he wanted to or not So he wasn't, he wasn't thinking it would be nice to spend a week. You know nice sort of qualities, He was thinking. How am I gonna get a birthday and so that- when he got up and went across to his dresser And grab one of his ties and hand he wrapped around his neck. Strangled him until he became unconscious homestead wake up for a brief. Second in it wasn't long before he passed out and then he are sexually assaulted him, what he too? This is where he started term to back them. He had this real hygiene

And cleanliness, so he would feel the top up with with warm water and dragged the body, and so he dragged homes into the bathroom placed him he's down in the water for the first five minutes, just to make sure he's dead. And then he would the bathroom and clean and properly and then take him out of the tub lay on the floor and tie him up with ropes. and wrap vinegar and that's kind of what what he did tell that's, how it ends up. He had to hear them

in that place there. He was on the bone and lower, so he would lift the floorboards up and placed the body in their. So that's kind of what his end game was. You talk about, though, that he was experienced enough. I guess from the military plan to stash among the floorboards, but rigour mortis had said, and so was his body was to stick to do it, but he remembered I thought this was eerie. They remember the body would loosen up in a day or two, so he did finally with him into the four boards in the living room till the get figure out how he could dispose of them. You say that body remain there for eight months until August Eleventh and then what did Nielsen decide to do with that body.

That time. Well, he started to say he started. He had kind of plan is so he started to do Canada, a barbecue or bonfire. You know where he would invite a few people over and he would actually burnt burn the remains of the body in and the parts and end, and people that would there be around wouldn't really even know what he was doing. Oh, it was his way of disposing of the different thing then he started having. Please

on fires they became a regular event around the neighbourhood ass. You talk about a ten months later, ten months later October, eleven nineteen, seventy one Nielsen picks up a person named Andrew whole afforded soon from Hong Kong. At a pub and again they go back to Nelson's for drinks. Tell us what happens to Andrew Hole where this was kind had actually got into a deal. He wanted to get into bondage. And being tied up in having that done. But how said you could do it, but I am he wanted money for it like it was paid, this sort of thing- and I guess what happened was home. He got his leg his feet tied up in

was laying where and when he saw no then go to the closet and take one of its ties. Work ties and come out. He kind of realise that there is something a little differently and then he started trying to strangle hole with tie and he started to panic and scream and struggled and he did get loose and he grabbed his clothes. What he could go And got out of the apartment, he went straight to the police and told them, but the police came and question. Nelson about this and dumb for, for some reason, the police believed Nelson's. Story and that when it was, was just a wild sex thing? That kind of went a little cry Easy and they didn't bother filing an official report.

so I just sort of thumb, went away, you know no child, no charges were filed, and- and Please just close the case in Ireland and whole came from a family that just wouldn't have been it wouldn't have gone over. Well you why he was out with another man and gone home with him, and who's gonna have sex with them paid or not. So it was one of those things that just went away, but the strange thing was it didn't stay on the police's minded they didn't. They didn't follow through or watch him are taken. notice of him. After this, they. Believed him am just sir let it go.

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now when we were talking about the development of Dennis Nielsen. Of course, there was an opportunity for police to understand who he was, and at least note this event in their their records. But of course nothing. No charges, no notice take us to December third nineteen set. Thirty, nine and Nilsen meets the canadian tourist Kenneth Awkward them at a pub again once again at a pub. What is the offer for this tourist Kenneth Ogden and what do they do that day? What happens we are? Well, he met him. It was in the theater district to write the west end. So pretty commercial, thirsty place an end. Being a tourist from Canada

It was easy for him to do so, sales and I'll show you around all the great power this is in London I'll take you to worm they're all the tourists deeply it's in there and end the landmarks, never everything and he was excited to be great. and they're called his uncle, who he was staying with in London. And told them that term? She was where to Go out and have some fun in and check out her London with this new friend he met and the two of them drank a lot in and hung out at the pop up and down and start honoured. Their trip around London to see, see the sights and and so anyway, they are dated whether what they had done was they decided they were gonna go for. Dinner and Nelson bite him over to his place. So he could. The shower

and the two of them. I drank a lot of course and end and what it was He went in and said he was gonna shower and Kenneth decided he would be listening to music, so he put on the head and I was listening to some music- and Nelson snuck over the other, the bathroom and choked him with cord, and it was pretty pretty it's pretty graphic in the kind of described in the book, how he wrapped around Us- neck and pull them ass, hard ass. He could and and kill them basically and then He took out his clothes and of the condones clothes and then went to bed and fell asleep with them, and

that was that was how that night ended now the next day. What does he do? This is new. What does he do to again live out his fantasy. Well, you know he started term taking pictures and back it was a Polaroid. So We put the body, indifferent term poses and take pictures, lay on top of the midday pictures to himself with the body and then he on and off with the body, several hours end would turn on the tv, and watch t the television and talk to the dead body. If he were alive when debating and saw the two of them would be basically in during a television show, but no one is dead,

So am I eventually By the end of that night, he ended up wrapping up the body in plastic, garbage bags and he lifted. a boy and put him in under there where he had hid the previous body before yes, and so. even though that the body of Stephen homes remain there, he would use right that he would remove Aachen dogs body from there and again on different occasions system in a chair and talk to him and drank and watch tv with them. And then when he would put it away when he went off to work well yeah market and didn't show up. So I go ahead now that he started he started acting like that person was he and for some reason it better on Oxenden, and he would keep put them. put him in the chair and they would tie

and then he would dumb asked him how work was when he came home and stuff like that, so we started really living a fantasy. You talk about the archidamus uncle in February. Eighty three police go question. Nelson again, what do they make of that? What does yet? say too that well yeah, of course, to the family was really concerned and upset, didn't know what happened in called when they come the police. They asked him about her you know the two of them men. What had happened and end Nelson claim that he had taken him around and showed him the threat to failures. square and the House of Parliament and all tat sort of staff in the they went back to the to his place and listen to music and some rum and end of sales.

and just did that in many said: Durham, I could, I think that they believe they got into a fight is what he told them, and so he left now take take us to take us to maintain eighteen, eighty and again he is at a railway station now and he comes across someone. They Martin Duffy's, against sixteen year old, runaway this guy is homeless and he's hungry and Nielsen tells him he has a spare room. So what happens back at the house Here I am in wanting to with the railway stations that was kind of a especially back. Then it was a real common place for game and hang out and to meet as well. So this is why he Nelson would be going places at it makes it sound like

he was just they're coming home from work and finding the body, but he would quite often go. Therein hang out just it's just an added thing for me yeah to understand, and it was a perfect place too, to find young men. Wouldn't Winnie sorry This is a Winnie met him in and, of course, even at least you know homeless and serve their. He gonna have an end in itself fresh in that he was. It was again young man with theirs sort of a little bit of interaction between the two He could invite him back to his house and an offer him dinner and drinks and even a place to sleep and that sort of what happened in cases, whilst also Martin Duffy would come home with them

And the two of them ate and drank and fell asleep and just like before. Of course, Nelson would go get it. I and play, around the neck and of course pull tightly And until they one conscious and that's what happened again with with them Duffy now you talk about term that he kept him the body for two days he sat down in a chair and talked him did all the other things that he did, but he had to put him under the forebears after a couple days ago it was bloated, but he later said he continued to use Duffy's body in fantasies for much longer than the other ones. For some reason, I guess he found him

more particularly attractive yeah. I'm not sure why, in certain cases, he would pick certain by certain bodies. Later he talked about how he liked it. In them and- and he was really really obsessed with that end and the amount of body here they have happened. He would even removed the hair, so I think, there are certain body she took a real liking to, and it was about the amount of hair. cleanliness and a whole lot of the body? I think I'm so that That's again, you know with his body. He would take him into the bathroom many bout them and.

carried him around and did the whole thing just like you did with previous ones. You write that in the last six months of nineteen eighty Nelson killed five more and attempted to murder to more and one was later identified as William David Sutherland twenty six year old person, it was working as a prostitute. You right, while he had a girlfriend and a daughter, but that mystery wasn't solvent, all Nielsen's arrest and eighty three, ah you say over next year Nielsen killed between five and eight others and attempted to kill another Douglas Stuart and the new you ve chronicled, the Allah, the an identified murder victims, five, six, seven and number eight. Now you write about the bodies beginning to smell and attract insects. So what does Nielsen try to do to cover up the smell and deal with

The small itself, while he was doing all sorts of things you know you know, throwing throwing law I'm on the bodies and and trying to cover up this now with any way that he could. But here again he. he was back into having the bonfires and and then he started at you know at this point it became kind of her you know, he was a little bit overwhelmed. And so he would, you would have to start burning the bodies again or are cooking different parts of the bodies numbering them and and start into a cook cook. The meteor parts and so he he did everything that he could hear. You talk about two in October. Ninety ninety one, ninety nine

One part me Nielsen's landlord, wanted to renovate and sell the house. We offer them again a thousand pounds again handsome sum to leave and Nelson accepted and found a new place. Twenty three d grandly gardens in the muzzle hilarious, North London so and then, on the last day, at Melrose Avenue, you write that he had a huge bonfire to burn his last five victims and used a tire burning tire too sore to cover up the smell. That's not true!. Yeah here he would put any anything he could in there to make better at so they couldn't snob he's burning along Anne and anything like that, tyres rubber and you think you could get, the jumped from the neighborhood? He would take

and put it all in the big bonfire you talk about at the new place. He didn't have a garden and he didn't have the floorboards any more to deal with. So he was still picking up men. You write about Paul knobs nineteen years old November, eighty one and you talk about in February to John Howlett, twenty three. Some of these people were able to escape. You talk to Hobbs, went to the hospital I was about John, how it and what happens here he said you know he didn't take long. He one man into the new place. He and he didn't pre precinct. All of this, because. He didn't hit him that he didn't have the place too high the bodies her burn them and all that I didn't really strike him until

turn it doing it again, and then it was kind of two He started getting overwhelmed, and so with Howlett. That was in one January the eighty two and It was a twenty three year old. And again Madame at a pub He really liked his looks. Uniquity reserve shit good. Looking and the two of them, of course, headed upstart top and before you know it dumb. He invited him back to his place and how it went but he never killed you and that that date and they started to date, have started to meet up after that and they read it the same pub and that's just

how they kind of got together again for further dinners and drink set Nelson's apartment. Now we talk about the other victims and we talk about those that narrowly escaped. How does he dispose of these people if he doesn't have floorboards a bonfire garden, which is innovation to dispose yeah. Then he starts eastwards cutting up the bodies and he starts cooking the meat he had a pot. He would boil them and then he would start flushing parts down the flesh, your parts, down the toilet and am the rescue back up and saw them away so basis

you got. You turn it. He turned it into a kind of a plant or factory sort of. Basically, we just and cut up into parts boiler Ali could cook the meat that he could and the rest of it in the energy levers and stuff like that. He would dispose of them through the bathroom as much in the things as much as he could you talk about that in May. Eighty two starter is twenty one year old and he falls asleep on his floor and he wakes up to Nilsen, choking em and dragging him to the bathroom and just weird behaviour of choking him and reviving him, and he goes to the police again. What's the response from police from this report? Well,

I think that the again you know the police had Canada, a biased against the homosexual activity, and so when you go there with that, right away there. They have a negative connotations of hooey who and what the problem problem and and and. starter? He was very How do you say on heaps very expressive? He was very just I'm bet, there's a word I can't hear, but he was just very. Over the top and very dramatic hand, and he went. He describes his situation of waking up in being drowned in the tub and and just a just the way he presented it. I think that the police were kind of not sure

stay. If they could believe him and end for some reason they they they just didn't wanna. major late, they didn't believe, and they didn't want to follow up on it. So I was At the end, there was another problem that he had also left it. It took him almost two weeks to go to the police. And so There is a lot of things going on and they just basically swept under the carpet so to speak. They just kind of didn't really follow through with it. You write in January, twenty six nineteen, eighty three, the final victim Stephen Sinclair, twenty years old, again brought him home to eat

drink and movie fell asleep and strangle them again. The same ritual opposing upon the bed than dissecting them a boil: the head, flushed down the toilet and bath drain February. Fourth, nineteen. Eighty: three very idly: Nilsen right. the complaint to the landlord. What does he complained to the landlord about everywhere yeah so he's he's having problems with his sewer backing up and and at that You know he wasn't the only one. Actually, there is quite a few people in there in the building. That were complaining about having backups in and and problems with there there toilets and am sewer system. So in the drainage was always plugged, so So when he wrote

complaint? He was like the fourth one: that's when they decided to send a plumber to do. An investigation to find out why they're always having sewer problems and February nineteen. Eighty three you talk, Laura employ over Dinah ride. What does he find where we alluded in the beginning? But what does he find and then that's in the evening and he returns and next day, so tell us this? What happens in this process discover here yeah when he got there was getting close to darker get becoming dark and he thought it would be something pretty easy any gets down in their random. He starts fighting flashy Substance and then little bones and he described it as care feet. He described this looks like someone's, been flushing there. see down the toilet in doing the washer. That's how it sort of felt to him and because

it was late and dark. He didn't know really here. He was gonna. Have to do more work and he wants to reported to supervisor self course. Ia told The supervisor in and the next morning supervisor came out with him and she other people and they started going through and and finding more and more and that's when they just had to call the police yeah. It's interesting to you right, the Dennis Nilsen when he returned from work, please introduce themselves and they told the problems with the apartments drainage pipes and he asked the since, when do the police care about drainage, your plumbing. Yeah yeah, I know, and he got a new- was gonna the end anyway, because when they wanted to talk to him he was I come on up in them and even. Told him where he had other bags full of of body parts in in the apartment. So

He wasn't even trying to hide it. when they got up their yeah you're right. Did it several large bags of the sector torsos in a bag of internal organs, also a bag with a skull with no flesh on it. Another one had a severed head and torso with one arm attached now, when they ask him, this is February Tent Detective J Interview with Nilsen. They they have to charge. Him differ one within forty eight hours, but when he asked her, many bodies. What does he say they think? Maybe a couple was was he say about the total yeah? I was really kind of unusual cause at first in the interview he admitted that there were three more corpses in his apartment. You know in the teach asked him in a cabinet that he had then they had them. You know in another one in a bag and

It was actually later when they asked him and then he sort of they said something in in the end. He gave Really weird answer: oh yeah, that's right. He said, oh, how many How many men did she killed and any just six or twelve or thirteen and down it, sort of it made them they? What so that we can at the beginning of the end and then, of course, they have to start looking through. the whole apartment and then go back to his old place and start putting it altogether. Yeah you're right that they found a thousand fragments of bones. Are they had to charge him first with the murder of Stephen, Saint Clair and then further investigate to see how many more than ticket could corroborate. He was interviewed sixteen times thirty hours total, but he said he

no idea why he murdered the men, and he said he had no actual intercourse with the bodies and destroyed all their personal items afterwards. So he also wanted to talk and told him about all of these things that we are talking about now, because that's how we got that information, even with the the police he talks about his conversations and the dress up. You talked about of it and the disposal methods Vinnie yeah, oh yeah, he was very open about it. All in fact, of anything, you can even see interviews with him went on different television programmes on Youtube now in, and he was right open with all of these conversations about how he did everything there is, there is no hiding any of it. And how he would dispose of the body what he would do with some of the bodies, how long kept them, how

removed all the hair and back them and he had he had quite a system to everything and dumb. I you know yeah, just a strange fellow all around now you talk about the trial and didn't take long to pronounce him guilty, but there was he fired his lawyer. He thought he was again how unusual he thought he could represent himself better than any other attorney, but finally, they had an attorney and he pleaded guilty, but diminished responsibility not word for insanity here there he was he was. He was, you know, you're too, psychiatry speak above. You know on his behalf and said that he lacked emotional development and you know

kind of its kind of our version over here of of being insane, he was, he wasn't capable. He was. You know the pseudo normal, so am outbreak, so outbreaks have skipped side, disturbance version. Then there

So he they had a lot to say about him and mentally. He was just not able to handle it. So it's diminished capacity, you what's interesting about the trial. Is it some of these people that were able to survive and escape like Douglas Stuart? He was the first witness and he had gone to the through the police and they have considered it lovers, quarrel and then they had another witness was Paul Knobs again and then Carl's daughter, told of two days of torture being choked unconscious and held under water, and then detective J got on the stand and spoke of Nilsen

Directing police to the bodies, and then you had superintendent chambers, he read out Nielsen's confession, including all of the ghoulish details for the jury, Dundee yeah, yeah yeah. There is really it was Isn't it was really not a hard hard trial person to convict really a situation was pretty it open. You know they knew what was What he was doing and how he was doing at in them? Did you talk about post prison activity because a very interesting what Nilsen does then, how long he lives and in all its activities,

behind bars. Is he really did want to talk more get into all of that? But what you do right in the book is that some did. He ends up in wormwood, Scrubbs and Hammersmith, prison, West, London and very interesting Lee. I, like almost everyone else. He does not appeal his conviction. He does not meet peel this conviction, but what does he say about the activities? After is a remarkable or what does he say? about what he had done. Overall, you, no, I don't I'm remorseful, I dont think, as is the need for good word, because when he died, talk to me. You know he accepted there You know he couldn't control himself leisurely actions and in some cases he killed with premeditated so he planned it and

you know. He knew he was. He was almost proud of of the thrill and they statement and being able to seduce, you know Then get men back to his apartment and deciding who he would kill and who wouldn't and then how he thought himself is almost a genius by their being able to dispose of the bodies and not get caught. So in his mind, When he talked about it and when he did interviews, he I think proud,

food is probably the best where you could put it. It was almost like a look at my achievements. There's two books and with you talk about writing a book, and I know that my brother's before that that he could not get his or what was up to forty five hundred page manuscript. Ah, the authorities made sure that there was grounds to be able to not prevent or to prevent that book from being published and all the things that he had to say. They used some legal ways of doing that. Obviously, but this would have been called history of drowning boy

and also the other bit of? I guess some information about this. A great wealth of knowledge was from an author name, Brian Masters, and now it's considered a classic killing for company where he spoke, and course wealth corresponded with Dennis Nelson about his life. So there's a difference. You a written a book of some of the facts. Dennis Nilsen would admit to will say in his own memoir and what he had said to bright masters. There is a little bit of a difference in accounts, inner yeah, yeah, that's an age. I try to just emphasised. I just I didn't want to say one was right or wrong like them, where's murder. When I did it, there's a couple of different versions, and so the best, to do is just kind of lay them out there. Ain't gonna go well, you know, there's stuff, changes urine and you gonna have to train. You know decipher written figure

out what you believe for yourself, yeah yeah. It's very very interesting to all of the things that he wanted to say and talk about and again killing for company. If anyone were read it, it just reinforces allow things that we add you had come to as well and and all the information about that I mean it. I hate to see it summed up that, because it sounds like a somewhat nice excuse that he was so lonely had to kill the people and so that they wouldn't leave. But that's a very, very nice version of what Dennis Nelson was all about. You write that in May twelve, two thousand and eighteen at seventy. Two years old, he died of natural causes in prison, and yet, though, you right also that he was a tall

act in prison, given eighty nine stitches in one prison, and so they moved him desegregation at another place. So he had an eventful career behind bars, dna we I wasn't boring and yeah. When you, when you look at him in an even when he did the central television interviews and stuff- and you talk about the box and stuff he, he would always present himself in a light that he thought they wanted him to see. So I think that explain some of these changes and some of these stories as well, but he seemed there. You know you can wrap it up is anyway? You want in the sense that he can say what you know, he's lonely to kill for company and yet all the stuff back in all these said, and he might even believe it and he might even have been mentally disturbed adopt too

Tat can be used as an excuse, but it doesn't really take away how evil he really was absolutely happened. Just in closing to cry Museum in London, I thought was very interesting, which has referred to the black museum collectors got Nielsen's last night. Are there in that Black museum, and certainly that would be an appropriate name for anything that Dennis Nelson was associated with here. Now I just want to thank you very much, Alan for coming on and talking about drinks, dinner and death to story of Dennis Nelson for those that might want to look at other work. Tell us what your facebook website wasted. They can look and contact you if necessary,.

For all my book orchids Ellen our Warren dot com, and that can that takes care All my writing and house of mystery dot com is for The radio show I do, which is the crime show. and that's that's really and Facebook. Of course you can find the on Facebook. Under Eleanor worn and that's easy to find and I was gonna stay for the first twelve emails. I get that radio come at gmail dot com I'll, give them a free book of yet drinks, dinner and death. So I just need you did it to send me an email and mention the show and the first twelve will get a book. While it sounds great, very, very

thank you very much and I'm sure the audience will appreciate that. So people listen to the programme, get out there and give them a call, because the books won't last long he very much Alan are worn for drinks dinner in death. It's been a pleasure. You have a great evening and good night, then you can. I do.

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