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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. Serial killer, Herbert Mullin and terrorize the Santa Cruz California area. At the same time, the infamous coed killer, Edmund Kemper, was active, unlike Kemper

Mullen killed anyone, young old men, women. Children and even a priest in the confession booth. He did that here to a particular mo the deadly voices told him to kill and he killed. The book tour featuring this evening is deadly voices, the true story of serial killer Herbert Mullins, with my special guest journalist and author Cl Swinney, welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview once again, Chris Winnie, hey, buddy how you doing thanks for the another invite to? I appreciate it, thank You very much should become a standard in the program of favorite. One of the favourites, with the amazing case is that you do covering your books. So here we are again this evening deadly voices the story of serial killer Herbert Mullin, one of the most infamous kill.

Gears of all time, and also very interestingly, we We talked about in the introduction tying in at the same time as the infamous coed killer, Edmund Kemper, why this book? What would really interested you about this case enough to want to take the effort to write a book. Well this this year, open here Herbert fascinating to me, because I have a narcotics background in law enforcement. An I'll So a interest, and schizophrenia, especially paranoid schizophrenia, and this case with Herbert kind of combined both you don't always hear a lot of serial killers combine both and then those kind of even more fascinating that an area close to my

my my current home and to my heart, the Santa Cruz area. One car was actually known as murder, Ville, USA and so putting all those three together. It really got me I'm interested in this case, so that's why I took it on. Now where this occurs is Santa Cruz, California and you're. Talking about we first introduced when you talk about Herbert Mullin is it was Brian, Mullan or but partly Bill Mullen, and he was a world war. Two hero and his mother was named. Gene. And he was the youngest of two children, and says- and this is important later- we won't give it away, but this date, his birth April 18th, one thousand nine hundred and forty seven also mark the anniversary of the night, One thousand eight hundred and six San Francisco earthquake and uh so the day Albert Einstein died any way you talk about

his early life. So you talk about the family. Moving in one thousand, nine hundred and fifty two just outside San Francisco tell us a little bit what the family life was like. What was bill senior like? What did you discover about his early life and his bring her. So whoever had a kind of a a really. Let me look at serial killers. He had an uncharacteristic bringing upbringing because he is actually in a somewhat nurturing and loving home? You know it's not the classic. While this kid was days in a terrible environment, then turned into a serial killer. That was in the case with Herbert, I mean his father. What is a world war. Two veteran he was super strict, but he wasn't abusive you'd play a major role in this case as it unfolded. His mom was caring and kind and loved tremendously. Her

was good. Looking kid, he was smart, he played athletics, he was super big and football uh you know as dad kind. It was transient little bit, he moved from place to place for awhile until he kind of found his niche Fulton, which is just outside of Santa Cruz, but there's nothing in this case either from his parents when they were alive and talking about this case and when Herbert's been talking about this case, especially recently trying to speak, the Parole Board, trying to get released from Ione prison, he doesn't ever mention anything about being used, whether it was sexually or physically or emotionally any base basically childhood was was you know, standard american life, a good kid did good in school played, SP family was loving and then just one cat topic. You read kind of

I literally overnight, change Herbert as a person. You you talk about this. Traumatic event, He was really old. Athletic and very popular and that lot of friends and was very good at football, really love football and headed for Name Dean Richardson. What happened that you say really is an important turning point in Herbert's life seems. Yeah this is, you know, we talk about serial killers and having a defining and if you will, that kind of makes some snap and for Herbert it was his his best friend Dean Richardson. So these guys graduated high school together. I think it was called San Lorenzo Valley, high school. They graduated together they're, basically whole lives were in front of were super tight. You know we all have bodies, remember back in the day where you just you know he played,

we will see together and tag. I don't nobody does that anymore, but it used to you have people you hung out with Paul Dean was his best buddy is that friend, they were kind of inseparable, and shortly after they graduated high school dean actually was out taking a spin in his car and he actually crashed his vehicle and passed away, and it's just you know the community was tight. The community he was shocked, but nobody took it worse than Herbert. He, completely lost his mind after the incident and ended up locking himself in his room for almost two weeks at which point he built he was in the process of building a shrine to dean, and that was kind of the event that basically set this whole story going forward was with the passing of his best friend. We forgot to mention that he had me

someone it's important to this story. Then then and later in the later in the story. Name Loretta and it was his high school sweetheart, and so after this after odd behavior in the shrines to his best friend dean heat Wells Loretta, something that very odd as well and just the beginning of odd behavior from people that seems to think they know him. What does he say to her. I'm not entirely remembering what you're talking about, but I know that he he began then kind of fascinated with the whole concept of the occult, so he basically started saying that he was hearing voices uh that God was speaking to him. He also was interested in using narcotics, and he started to experiment with marijuana at first, but then he he unfortunately was exposed to L the.

I can't remember exactly what she said. If you could wow what did drama movie, he broke up with her. He broke up with her early and he said: oh was that about the for homosexuality so city. That actual so so yeah talk about good. Yeah, well, you did you love, though, because go ahead, but I don't cut me off no go ahead. What no go ahead. So the thing with him being homosexual actually was a huge thing for better, because at some point, when they first Got together and throughout high school there was some talk, about how they were going to settle down and have a family and stuff and whole mention of being homosexual really caught her off guard, but he didn't want anybody else to know so it's kind of a

secret that he had and he actually would end up having some sexual. Counters with men, but her and Loretta, and him were not finish, that at that point they still have a tenuous asian ship for several more years. Yes, you talk about this back and forth and then other incidents later with Loretta you. Talk about this experimentation with LSD, any Also we talk about is Father being a world war, two veteran hero. What does he lsd, and just I guess, disagreements with his father with his parents What did he believe in and what did he move towards in in college as a result of lsd? He so when he was experimenting with marijuana and and got some that was laced with Ella. See his whole mind? Kind of hum

shifted, yeah lot of fallout with his father had a lot of arguments. No, this is a cool battles, but a lot of verbal. Arguments. He start experimenting with Buddhism and again, as he got sucked into this cold thing with the supernatural. Actually, he Herbert tried to join the military he kept getting kicked out And so he wanted to make his dad proud, but he couldn't get in and then he just switch gears completely. He decided that you know a way of looking at life would be better for him. He kind of shined off the system, if you will He was not a big fan of America for a certain period of his life because he, and be a marine and couldn't get into the Coast Guard and couldn't get into the army. Although he kept trying- and so he kind of got into this whole thing with

with the Buddhism and and looking at different areas of religion, any kind of use that, as a kind of thing, that kind of piss off his dad. Does he knew his God was? Was not going to be supportive of that right. You talk about him being also turning into really too and later may have just done part of it at least to piss off his far. As you say, he was a conscientious objector to the war And also yeah, back and forth with with gratitude to that there was a time when he was engaged to Loretta, and then he broke off the engagement or to Loretta. He was telling people was bisexual, but you say that she broke off this because of his drug use.

Yeah, so they did that they did cat and mouse for almost a year and a half, and she tried to stick with him, but he just was not the same person. She knew and he he did tell her that he was homosexual and he did have some homosexual ideations for sure he was experimenting, but at some point started getting sizzle her It was never a violent person until a little bit after these, incidents that were talking about, he was more of the guy who was the life of the party, the class clown always known to be smiling laughing will eat. He was you We made a complete one hundred and eighty, and now he was being aggressive. Angry Shore, Loretta Ann, even though she had tried to stick by him for almost a year and a half, I think her, probably friends in Gerhard said hey. This is not good, and so she she actually was the one who called it off, which was the first time she had actually done that

I think it was another event where Dean Pathways best friend is expiry. Sing with drugs. He's experimenting with sexuality is view on, am American Culture is a little bit skewed, but now he's been told and Loretta now she finally says I'm done blocks away, and I think that kind of slapped him in the face big time rush Polytech check. You talk about to that. He had a job at goodwill industries, but he quits the job and he's busy he's going to move to India. Instead, he moved to so Bastable, California, probably mispronounced that in living. In a trailer on his on his sister, during his brother in law's ranch. So what happened shortly after him being there, and you also talk about Mendicino State Hospital, so what happens almost soon after you get getting there yeah, so he visa

he's drifting and he's spiraling out of control. He doesn't know it. See. What's going on, I think the Paranoia Schizophrenia is fully grasp him. He's upset with his folks, and the goodwill manager was you'll notice that he was basically a star employee and now he's not showing up and he's saying bizarre thing. So her hair cut he threaten to go to India, but he didn't go on the ends up at his sisters ranch. Actually his sister's husbands ranch, but soon you get there almost within a couple days. He basically starts asking his sister and her husband if they would like to have sex with him obviously, his sister, who knew him. She's lived with him, her whole life, and she knows him We know that that's bizarre and that's when she makes a call to the police up that way and they come out

they do what's called a five thousand one hundred and fifty, which is the mental health hold, so so, what that means is a law enforcement officer would show up. They would try to talk to her were in based on what he's saying and how he's acting. You can place them on a hold for their mental health sitting. Go talk to somebody, so in that case he went to the hospital on the now. Is good and bad. He got a little bit of stability in in the hospital and he liked it was have a earmarked for this case. He like structure, we'll will talk about later, but he also this was first time diagnosed with schizophrenia, and he took that as him. Nobody understanding him? Nobody getting him and he kind of took a personal, and I end up walking out of that hospital, so it kind of it was good and bad. If you will, for that period, His sister did not want to completely kicker. Kick him out, but she obviously cannot have

her brother there asking to try to have sex with her and her husband. So it was a bad team right. You talk about too, that he didn't agree with that assessment of doctors and he didn't take the meds, or at least he didn't regularly take any medication that they suggested ditty. No, he uh, and he also he did not any goes into books. I mean. Was a smart guy. I he was going to college. He took some college class says he wanted to do the college staying when he heard the term schizophrenia which wasn't widely used back. Then he started reading books and and try See well, you know what does that mean? How do I deal with it, but he was extremely adamant that he would not take any medication to try to help balance him, and I think that was what led to all the things that we would talk about later.

He also wanted to change is major 'cause. It was an engineering taking courses to be an engineer and he wanted to switch, as you say, to something that was quite novel at the time, which was psychology at that time. So realizing that he had heard there the term schizophrenia. Now what was his role if it? If Any run ins with the law or violence at that other than this odd behavior? Was there any incidents that anybody and did was easy? telling anybody about any violence, what's Whoever was there any mention of violence from him you his first run in the that the year it like the end of nineteen sixty seven, that's when he basically drops out of school becomes a conscientious objector and basically just kind of want the

live on the streets and kind of do his own thing. You know buck buck. The system and uh. It's when he kind of decided that hey it's it's me, to do my thing, they're getting contacted just shortly after signing of like nineteen, but maybe the beginning or like mid of nineteen sixty eight when he had his first contact with law enforcement officer, local officer in Santa Cruz contacts them on the street, passing down, find some marijuana on him, and you know back in nineteen sixty eight that was a crime and so he was taking it. He was arrested taken to jail, went to jail and went the court. Wasn't aggressive with the officer didn't fight it by with jail staff, been arguing court but it was his first kind of give me interaction with law enforcement in it.

He never mentioned that. Did it rubbed on the wrong way, but there were or captain calendars with. Please start to get more violent. After that incident, he was contacted not too long later me and he was contacted again this time. He's walking across the street he's making kind of odd statements to the officer Jobs or thinks he might be somebody suffering from a mental issue, but he ends up finding a knife on her we're in Herbert also gets a little bit aggressive with the officer kind of scuffles with him a little bit. On the night comes out. You also, it basically says he go for it. I'll student kill you. And you know back then even today, but back then they probably would have shot and kill him if he tried to grab that knife, so kind of changes appear in Change Herbert's opinion a little bit about law enforcement, but so we went from you know possession of marijuana to pasta, mental health issue armed with a knife, so it's starting to kind of move

in that direction of become a little bit more violent. So he starting to take on. You know in the wrong direction. But nobody really was there to coach talk him off the ledge, so to speak, so kind of got worse it it didn't get any better. And there was nobody really kind of watching over him or trying to help him. You talk about before that too, and one thousand eight hundred and seventy he or in nineteen seventy, partly he is To do lsd, heat gets to Maui with a friend at brown and then he's on his own. There he's introduced to methamphetamine, which does help them whatsoever and then he's. Basically in a clinic in Maui. And he is diagnosis, schedule, Perfecto Schizophrenia, a nice day for four weeks, and you say there is

a lot of evidence that this time, and a few other times that there is a relative stability And then he moves seems to move forward in his life. So tell us a little bit about is trying to re admission to Guerrillo College and some of the instances where he seems to be quite stable and then goes off the rails yeah so that now that interesting trip for him, because he was going with somebody else that he meant that kind of a large property fuel on sale, cruise, where there's a lot of folks hanging out kind of like some shanties and and and he was accepted there, but then he started kind of some of those odd comments and acting little bizarre and one of his can instant go to Maui with them, but that friend actually left them there. I mean there was so question and it really upset.

But really it really upset him that his friend would come out there and leave them there, but he did actually walk himself into a clinic again. Then he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. This time there were using different Language are different nations. If you will have schizophrenia. Whoever was working. There had a lot better success in getting take his medication and it that he took his medication. He got his medication, he stable, but the staff there. Like look your maui, your families out in Santa Cruz. You kinda get home, you know and you did get stable and you need to get home and continue. You know what your Your because you're making a lot of progress. We kinda doesn't want to do that, to you sort of have to admit to his folks that he needs help and you stuck in Maui

but he ends up biting the bullet. Gets money goes back to Santa Cruz area kind of, like you said, get kind of reconnect with folks, just temporarily get them to school, get a little bit temporarily, but he stopped taking his meds, and that again is what was the catalyst for. What he's yeah we're going to end up doing it and if you understand anything about schizophrenia, these folks have to take. Meds gay shun there's different medications that work differently for different people, but I can tell you right now. If they do not take their medication, they will do and say things that it's not their normal behavior and that's what ended up happening was Herbert. He he lost the focus of going and being taking his meds talking to people that could help him and kind of ended, uh

ripped it out back in the streets again and that's when he got back into narcotics and and doing that stuff that he should not be doing. You talk about his time in in the head, the days of the counterculture in one thousand nine hundred and seventy one San Francisco, no job or money gets a little rapey play Jason Tenderloin area with alcoholics and drug addicts, and you talk about some the things that he starts, believing in based on all the thing so these read about reincarnation and also the actual side effects or the effects of schizophrenia and the voices. This is a time when he talks, or at least later he knows that there's talk about Leonardo Davinci tell us a little about some of the things that are formulating is a mind based on some of the things he's red and what idea is Chris realizing in his head.

That he later will use to justify these murders. Yeah. So when you ended up in San francisco- and I think it's mid or early maybe may at seventy one- I think it was he meets this guy Alan, I think, is often was Hanson, and this guy be friends as you know, he, basically they merely hit it off. They have a discussion and they both kind of seem to share similar thoughts. But there are big one was on reincarnation and Herbert was experimenting with or not experimenting by looking into reincarnation over the last couple of years. I met somebody who has the same views, but this guy Hanson was super supportive, so he got along great with her. They start talking about God talking about telepathy

that it was ok to have multiple voices in your head talking at the same time, uh and and it kind of this guy Hampton turned Herbert onto artwork and many of the books written by Leonardo Davinci Vinci At the same time, we started looking into Albert Einstein. I started thinking about schizophrenia and the definition of schizophrenia, but born. Remember that letter, Leonardo, Leonardo Davinci Thing, because one of the books he read on was about medical procedures and how to check the human body, and that would be an important fact later so he's now coming to grips with multiple. This is in his head. Incarnation the fact that he's convinced himself, God personally, Speaking to him.

You need Albert Einstein and believes that since his birth date on his same birth date that they shared a obvious connection and so he's really. This is war. This is where are chronic use specifically Alice the and get the area and living on the streets produces just kind of a time bomb. You talk about too, that he, Has heard about local scientists predicting major earthquake- could destroy certain parts of California sooner rather than later, and at that time, that was that story in the scare. So what does Herbert deduce from this thinking. This is a fateful turn of events, so the the earthquake of one thousand nine hundred and six really uh from this point on? Basically when he discovers it and structure, did the lottery's

there, a lot of time in the library when campers just San Francisco and go over the things he into a quick but that symbolism of the earthquake and what happened he's started believing that God was telling him at first. He said it was just a voice, but then he can, I said it was God and later he said it. He thought it was the devil, but multiple competing voices are in his head they're telling him hey, the scientists are predicting another big earthquake, but the voices are up telling him in you can prevent the earthquake. So you have the ability kinda, like a god like ability to prevent the earthquake, and he having these full blown discussions with these voices in his. When he finally asked him. Well, how do I do it? One of the voices

Kind of be becomes the driving voice fuels. This whole case is the voice, need to kill people And it rationalizes the voice rationalizes that if you you'll save thousands because of earthly comes thousands 10s of thousands of people die so trash lies is the voice rationalizes, his his design two. Kill someone, and that proof commanding him is who of time talking about it she came to court and stuff, but he said originally, it was God Anna couple documents that I was able to but during the research for this project he switched gears completely. Instead, it was the devil,

and he just later started calling it the voice. So he had multiple races in his hand, but this was the one that called the shot or at least influenced his activity, so it became very powerful bye. Now we talk about you, talk about Santa Cruz in October, nineteen or October 13th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy two and a fifty five year old man, Lawrence White, local transient. Ann Herbert driving in his one thousand nine hundred and fifty eight Chevy station wagon. What does he do? What is the ruse and then what happens? Yeah and so we've talked about you know a very Tumultuous about four year period, where kind of goes with Herbert it, but uh besides the officer finding a knife on him, one time when he contacts them, there's no violence, and then this incident here with Whitey just kind of.

For lack of better words, just kind of came out of nowhere so he's drive along herbs drive along he's up in the hills, and the hills are important in this case and will talk about him later, but he used the hills. Herbert to for some reason when, when he was in the hills, the voices would would calm down a little bit, at least that's how he described it, but he's driving along, and you see this guy of in is he sees a a guy on the side, the street, it's a local transient. Guy that most everybody knows from the area he This is a guy and it's kind of nonchalant, but as he's pulling away from the guy voices start arguing basically in his head about The guy and and Herbert's basically screaming in the car at these voices are going back and forth, but they're basically trying to convince him to kill the guy. For no other reason, then he just happened

be the guy that he saw on the side of the road um. So it's kind of a tough one to talk about 'cause it just. It's, it's an innocent man who was just kind of well liked by the community, but but Herbert take. Into another level, so he actually sets up a rude that you were talking about. He passes Laura. His name is Lawrence way. He passes pulls over an seems as though his car he's having car trouble. So in his mind, it's it's back and forth. Kill this guy killed this guy there is one voice saying no, no, no there's this battle, just basically a battle waging his headbutt Lawrence, the He sees the car pull over and he's trying to help. So we actually comes up speak to her.

And they have a little bit of conversation, her bathroom. He can make check out my motor a man why he doesn't know too much about motors and stuff, but he's trying to be helpful as he's inspecting the engine bay, he kind of loses track of Herbert. Unfortunately, Herbert. The murderous voice in his head take over and he retrieves a baseball bat from behind his seat blocks over and basically bludgeoned to death Lawrence White right there on the side of the road no other reason. Then the boys told him to do it and he was convinced they're convinced himself, that by killing He was preventing a massive earthquake that would kill 10s of thousands of people. That's what he said, but he Non shall Lee cleaned up the blood and brain matter from the bad. As you write,

and he drove away there were no lead up or witnesses to this horrific murder and later he said it felt good to kill. You take us to October 24th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy two and soak well, California, Ann one of the most disturbing parts of this entire story: Mary Willis Oil, she's, twenty four years old and she's, walking towards Cabrillo College for a job interview and it's she's late. So she hits heights at the same time you talk about at that time, one thousand nine hundred and seventy two. We know it's a different time, but there were, police warnings, the hitchhikers 'cause, there's hitchhikers decapitated found the cap.

But in the Santa Cruz area, at that time, so tell us, despite that, a little bit about Mary Guila, Foil and her encounter with Mullen yeah. This is this. One uh was kind of pinnacle of this. This kid send and, yes, throw things were even unite in in the a little body one source, It will tell people you know, warnings. Your this will give you warnings your family will give you warnings, but sometimes we just don't. We don't listen and weed he'd what people are trying to tell us, or we feel like what the issue may not impact just directly, but. In that area that I actually was boots on the ground over there. I spend a lot of time out there. Just my personal, I

so when I was right in this case I went out there and it kind of walked her path. You know, and just sort sort of speak try to put myself in her shoes, but. A temper which we briefly talked about earlier. He was known as the coed killer he's way In that same area and your emails were told specifically not to get high but merry find yourself basically desperate she's got to get to a an interview, she's she's, a college kid she's She's trying to do the right thing, she's trying to get a job and go to classes. You know she's she's doing if you live in my view to doing what we what she wants to do, but she ends up. Basically, you know putting come out trying to get a ride and I don't know how are y but herbs in the exact area at the right time sees her pulls over and she

she looks at him and basically just gets in the car here they say I have a little bit of discussion. He says well. Take it to the to the college, but basically almost after he clears the curb so picture up. They pull away. She's had a conversation with him, but his voice is are, are going on in his head, he's not listen to what she's saying but the same voice foreign to kill. Larry Lawrence White is now telling him that this girl needs to die going. So he takes her kind of Away from the school Mary starts getting nervous little bit, he takes her out, Secluded area and then. She's not sure, there's not a lot of Nation, because he didn't really describe what he did for parts of this

Jason. We can't get in her head, but a struggle doesn't sue and basically he stabs her to death. So. She is not the co ed killer, but you go, you have a young female who is hitchhiking is now been. He stabs her right through the heart stabbed her in the back The fact that he was carrying is gonna be an intricate part of this case on hold but He basically told investigators after the fact that he thought she died almost instantly, He then takes her down down too early either in the car fixer downstairs in the road is now he's kind of can you to dispose the body, but this is the one. This is kind of case the Murder in this case that is hard to to stomach, but talked earlier about how her bad that interest in

Leonardo Da Vinci and Leonardo was uh. A brilliant mind, and he also had to do a lot of stuff with by section and another voice in his head and herbs had telling him he needs a sacrifices. Girl he's already killed her, but he's the voices tone him. He needs a sacrifice, or so he He takes her out to a little bit more of a secluded area and he basically starts to two dice actor. With the same hunting. Knife takes out some of her organs. He hangs some of her on trees, nearby kind of found your body with some of her organs and just leave her there. I mean basically thinks he's made his sacrifice to God and once again, by doing so, this

death is going to ensure that 10s of thousands of people because of this major earthquake death coming. You also talk. It's a little bit mixed up as well with. He believes after reading a book called the agony and the ecstasy Irving Stones, Biography on Michael Angelo that he also wanted to be a serious artist. So it's so he needed to dissect the body, and this be came is canvas. You say canvas of a serial killer, we're going to as an opportunity Chris to stop for a second to talk about sponsor of this program. This evening, zip recruiter what is hiring be easier, more streamlined and less time consuming. So EVA when you're busy. You could still be smart about the way you hire with zip recruiter. You can

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you say that they're not sure whether there is only one killer, two killers or a copycat killer, so tell us how police proceed and what does Herbert do afterwards. So yeah, so Mary's body wasn't found until I think February 12th, so after but the actual murderer, every one thousand two hundred and seventy three, I think yeah so ever over remains are found in the skeletons found. Take some a little bit of time, long Forsman it keeps loading as there was a missing persons report filed to Mary same same evening. I think of the day that she was taken by her, but because of all that, time that had gone through are gone and in the fact that they had investigators have determined that her head wasn't capitated,

they weren't sure. If it was just personally are calling the coed killer or, like you said, a copycat sure or maybe a third party or sometimes I thought that maybe the coed killer had been accomplished, so I am, well, of trying to figure that out they don't have any leave. There's no weeds out there in the wilderness, where her body was downtime. Time had taken most anything. Tire tracks or or blood or any Paying for law enforcement collect and build a case, and we also talk about the early 70s, so it will not allow that stuff with even happening any kind of real level back in a law enforcement, so herb is free to go about his business and nothing changes. The voices continue. It has good days and bad days on that is kind of say that he's going to walk away from narco.

Product could he doesn't like how they make him feel, but he's sort of fuel guilty about what he's gone and so ends up going to confession. This It's like every one of these cases are everyone of these incidences in this case, just it just to get worse and worse, but in this case he ends up going to a confession to a place called LOS Gatos, which is just basically north of Santa Cruz. He gets into a church thing is called St Mary's as a catholic church yeah he he he wants to go confess his sins, and so he into a general Indian, Father, Henry till may uh and he's in this discussion he's he's talking to father till May. He not really saying much about anything.

Just kind of in there and they can kind of some comments. But eventually, father to me tells him it's ok to talk and Herbert. You're, just the beans, and so he lives literally tells father to me that he he had killed to write any killed Mary but as soon as he says it, the voices in his head say a guy. Now you need to kill this guy, because there's some part of herbs mind that continually tries to clump TIM and to make sure that you covered his tracks so to speak, and now that he's confessed to murders he's got a kick. He's got a these voices and got to kill father to May So he can hear follow to there's like an odd silence. If you will follow to me makes a run for, but for being much younger and more athletic track some down and

literally kills him right into right in the church right on the floor of the church, just killed him uh. And again he leaves and allegedly there was no, there were no win. This is to the murder an uh he he He leaves later in this story, though he will tell investigators that that followed to me actually telepathically told her. He was okay, to kill him because he knew that killed them. He would prevent this massive quicken, save thousands of lives again. Those kind of interesting how herbs mind played at around you talk about this too, that into wind with. This is sometimes a willingness or a need to try to please his father, so he try

to join these cazzette cadets. These reserve cadets Auguste. Hard cadet and later we have another where he tries to be a marine. But what happens at these? Where? How far does he go? It seems like his his hopes are dashed, but Do you use the one example of it looks optimistic what happens and what's the what's his reaction from this? yeah so every time he he applied for those he was. He was still trying. You know at least maybe some conscious you try to please his father. I mean his dad cared for me that love them and sort of this momma's oldest sister, so I think That was another one of the battles in his mind as he as he is on this case war on, but he would constantly get sent to the rejection problem because he couldn't pass the psychological portions of these.

Application process, and no, I don't think he don't You have passed them, happy, not murdered anybody, but now he's trying to take psychological exams after killing three people- and I just know- he's killed. Three people he's got multiple voices in his head. He has stepped away a little bit from narcotics but I don't know anybody or how anybody could even consider trying to pass a psych exam with three bodies: the bodies on their conscience. You know I just don't don't think and plus there was no doubt, and there is no doubt in my mind that he definitely suffered from schizophrenia. I have dealt hundreds of people in my career about schizophrenia and there's no way that they could pass a cycle. Logical examination, it's just not possible Utah.

About not being able to pass the cycle, psychological evaluation, but in December Herbert gets his first license for a gun, doesn't eat yeah and So that kind of like for me when I was investigating the case was like go. You know what weather What other reason that you need a gun? Besides wanting to kill somebody, you know what have the voice is. The voice is finally instantly to get a gun, you know 'cause before he was using up. Baseball a knife, and now he's going, get a gun in when I was putting this out I this book together and when I stumbled upon the fact that he was able to get a firearm. I just kind of cringe, because I knew there was no way it was going to lead to anything positive. You know right. Now you talk about the Kelly Francis and Also James G, the person who introduced him to marijuana so enjoy

anyway 25th, one thousand nine hundred, and seventy three tell us what happens as a result. Yeah. This kind of a this whole thing is a just. How traffic really in my mind, because he he decides that her besides, that J and the guy who intro him into marijuana and tricked him to use marijuana had had been laced with LSD and then rational. It is mine that Kim what's to blame for the voice and the killings rationalize that he needed to make. Jim pay and he wanted to find Jim and kill him, and so he knows all happening in the Santa Cruz area. Full stop

So he goes to where Jim used to live and stumbled across Kathy Francis and her two sons and he's basically he's outside of the house. He's doesn't see any cars or anybody that he knows but in the cars that are associated to bomb jam and he just kind of sitting in the car, and he later told that he was sitting in the car, stroking the firearm and trying to decide to listening to the voices in his head and they're based be saying: hey, you know you you got it. You got to find Jim. You gotta, you gotta, kill him, so he he makes the effort to get some self motivated. He goes up to the front door to knock on this house. An it's not Jim, he kind of open the door is kind of stunned

Caesars woman named Kathy, and these are, I think he you, I saw one child he later to please he saw one child at the house. He didn't know I was too but and this lady, she he says you know you know. Jim doesn't live here, anymore, he's moved and the voice is kind. Start, putting together an investigation, if you will and say well, where is he? Where did you go? And so this Dial Kathy. She deceives this young kid said he's friends with Chin so she says you know, I don't see any harm uh in letting This person who says he's a friend of Jim's. No, we live so because I'm the tell them where to look. She basically tells hey moved over here on the other side of town and he's like? Okay, thank you and leave Phillies. Are there and no harm? No foul? He ends up taking

looking for or she says, uh Jim lives in when he gets to that location. You see, his car and he knows the car very well because they did drugs in it. He purchased drugs in it they drove around in it for a couple of years. So soon, as you see that these voices start cheering in his head, kill, kill, kill, uh and it's just you know the voices saying, and this is the one that He never mentioned that killing Jim would prevent an earthquake. So it's it's unique. We will talk about it. A little bit later, but he the gets out of car walks to the front door, knocking the door gym answers it, and immediately her pussy way through the house. Into the main living room area and Jim who who's can see that obviously something's up with herb and it has this

and as I probably murder, he tries to go upstairs and tell his wife Jim Jimmy, just been married and so he's trying to learn his wife hey something's up, but as he starts up the stairs her- pulls out his gun and shoot some in the back. And kills kills his basically be his friend and also a drug provider for him he doesn't kill needed those shots Two shots didn't film in gym now is you know, sure if you will a scene where he's been shot he's in excruciating pain, he is dying and he slowly trying to make his way if he will to his wife to war. And then her basically walks? He kind of falls for a little bit and then he walks up behind him and shoot the gym right in the head. Just kills and instantly

after that shot. I think it's probably going on before, but he says later that after that shot, he heard some screaming in the house. He ends up searching the house for the screaming person. He ends up finding this go. This girl named Joanne bomber Joan, and Future installing it just kills her. So he's now got two bodies. You know Jim and his wife kill them both. And then he does something. That's just really strange. We know for a fact that Jim was dead bye. He then goes after these bodies are dead. It is definitely the death. We definitely deceased your trees, this clock in any stratagem, several times. I don't know why he did that he never really talked about it, but on, He he also go

back toward Jones at Dodgers won't, but at some point they're already dead. Now is stabbing dead bodies. He's convinced that the dead and the voices start to calm down. So he cleaned himself up a little bit and then starts to to formulate a plan on how to leave the house and get away. Oddly enough, will be called in the shots fired at the scene, and so that's kind of strange to me 'cause. It was not in a rural area. Although Santa Cruz is rule, internet itself is it was, there was houses nearby. So I'm not sure I know you called him call that in but now herbs got more dead bodies and now he's leaving that as he leave the house, another another voice kicks in again and it starts just another terrible part of this case. He you

Continue with this 'cause. It's so horrific is that he realized Kathy. Frances was a witness, so went back shot her in the head. Then he risers, we thought one. One child, but there was a four year old and a nine year old, so they were hiding under the bed. She found them crying and then assassinated them. And he grabbed his friend James Thirty, five thirty five times and stabbed Joan numerous times after they were dead, so Sell these bodies are discovered by the way, like you say, very odd, all of these gunshots or not reported, but people Kathy's mother discovers her and calls police. So what do police see the? What do they notice about the crime scene itself, which is unusual and are they able at that

how to connect the crime scenes. What do they think about it? At that point, I remember the the exact things that they were. Sit in I know that they were We were at a. I know that when the mother or the grandmother, found them the law enforcement had had, working at Jim's house for the double homicide, and so there these two guys that were working at scene, there's not a lot of homicide investigators in that county, especially at that time. So they didn't really connect. The two didn't come. Two seems right away. They made this that there wasn't forced entry at either place. And so they kind of both scenes. One connection was well, maybe

The killer was different for each house, but in each scene the cure, maybe knew the victims, because there was no forced entry right and so that kinda was that was kind of like their their main thing that they were trying to figure out was how could somebody will? First of all, it was just what was the deal with the shooting and then the numerous stabbing? You know why go after the women they local, please did know that Jim was a drug dealer, it actually no rhyme or reason why Kathy was killed and to go out for the children again just. It infuriated law enforcement, but the only thing, although they believe there was no connection between those two crimes- was the fact that there was forced entry and no items were taken, at least they didn't. There was no obvious items that were taken yeah. I think there was a

please captain who was quoted as saying that this thing has a pattern to it: it's not a case. Some crazy man running around shooting people. He never elaborated as to why he thought there was connection, and it wasn't all it wasn't until a little bit later did investigators figure out that the that Kathy was living in Jim's old House, and so they thought. Maybe connection. That way, but none of them knew or had any I believe that a previous drug kirkus, Sir, had talked cap we found out where Jim lives killed him and his wife and they went back and killed her and her kids just because she knew about it. So very disgusting, extremely frustrating for Long Smith and as all that was kind of coming together as Long Forsman, working these double homicide scenes.

One hundred and eleven and one in Dublin. The other pervert just took off, went out towards a place called the Henry Cowell State Park, and we, out to the wilderness, because now he needed a break. That's what he kept saying when he was interviewed by law enforcement that you need your. We went out the woods and try to basically decompress just before that, unless we I think the chronological order wrong, there's also February fifth Alice Louie Lou Ann Roseland Thorpe disappear next, hey seventy nine year old widow, raped and strangled and left in her bathtub. So by six five months, my month, then you say by the end of February six more victims, but if you, days after Lewis and Thorpe or found. Then you talk about the teens drinking. Tell us about this scene,

these young teenagers at this park, yeah those mentioned those murders you mentioned- were related she had campus and because of the high rate of murder, that's how Santa Cruz, which is now kind of a laid back beach community. If you will, you know it was at one time called murder, Ville. Usa, when I found out I just, I've lived in the berry along time. I visited that area, maybe thirty or forty pipe that just hard to believe about area to be known as that, but Basically, law enforcement was scratching their head, no weed on any of these things, uh below obviously the public was. The outcry was huge. He's getting international attention about all these murders and uh yeah 2C your work in the same area. I don't know.

I actually don't know, except for randoms were two guys work at the same time like as a poo that two separate serial killers are worked in the same area same time. So it's made this case even more unique, but when her gets out to the. Out into the hills. He runs across these four kids, but he he had a herb outta of strange affinity, tour. Protecting the environment. He felt like he was a protector of earth and he felt that he killings were preventing earthquakes, which prevented damn just to earth and he kind of felt this one is, if you will with earth- and so he stumbled upon these Kids- and these are youngsters- I think, one thousand nine hundred and eighteen

eighteen year old. I think, if I remember and herb see these kids, you know one thousand eight hundred and nineteen year old, kids camping. You know. That they shouldn't they probably had a lot of trash. Fashion in there or probably taking care of the vibrant. If you will and so herb sees them, he doesn't necessarily have Any inclination killing anybody tried to convince them that he's a park ranger, and so he He comes into the campground, tells of him a park ranger. What about the mark bring our he says, he's a he says, is a park ranger. But what is there? What is the response to that? Sorry? He told them to leave me telling me, even though he they didn't, they didn't respect and that all they didn't it is.

Believe you was a park ranger and then basically just said, hey want, wants you piss off and get out of here makes a mental note that they had a rifle with them, and you know he's basically not looking that angle, so he's rolling in the voices are going, but as soon he turns leaving leave kind of circles around and watch these. The voices kick in He then believes mister. We talked about earlier that he can telepathically speak to each one of them. Campers and basically have a discussion with them about hey. Is it okay? If I kill you guys, he tell remember he's telepathically doing this he said later that each kid told him. Yes, you can kill us which did not happen, but he circles around gets into a position. Advantage springs into the camp. Ground area

He knows that, there's a kid closest to the rifle. He takes him out. First, that you get with them off the the other kids. They tried to run for their lives from this crazy man. He just killed them all ' well. He later said that he thought about dissecting their bodies, any one Do that because they had disrespected them. So it wasn't. 'cause. He wanted to be an artist and he wasn't trying to be like MIKE D'Angelo or Davinci, or anything. It's just basically was mad that they disrespected him. So I going to be like their bodies, but. He get it. He literally left all the campsite the same, but he took the rifle, that's like the first time he's committed a theft or taking a piece of evidence if you will from a crime

and it actually plays an important role toward the end of the case, but again voices told to kill these kids, but it it wasn't the voice so to speak. That was convincing him to kill them to protect others from a earthquake. This one was he telepathically, communicated with the victims and made all volunteered to be killed. So it's very very strange. You write six days later, Mary Willis Oils, dissected body was found in Santa Cruz Hills. Forensic specialist found human. Test pins on a tree branch police assumed she was killed by Edmund Kemper twelve murders in four months and nine murders in less than two weeks. Not a single lead or a suspect at all. But you talk about- and this is a

coincidence- an amazing odds against event ever happening. Eventually after killing his mother Ann fleeing the Colorado Kemper called the Santa Cruz Police Department turned himself in immediately confessing to eight murders. So now police ask about the other murders. What do they think after temper cooperates and- Give some details about the eight murders concerning these other murders. So yeah, it's old camper is like basically had it. He's he's he's on the phone with with long frame he's given up details of the murders that he's committed and there's no doubt that he committed on based on his knowledge of the murders right, but as he's as you know, they got this guy on the phone there trying to figure out where he is he's kind of screwing with them a little bit, but they start about these other murders

Happily they kind of wished. It was him, so they could close out these cases, and they were only looking for one person but as they having this discussion with him. And they did not know about the campers yet 'cause I had been found, but they had all the other the murders that Herbert had committed and he tells him no and I had nothing to do with those and it kind of took the The wind out of the sails, if you will on one hand, law enforcement, is absolutely ecstatic that they have a person who is confessing to eight murders in their town or in their area, and uh it's willing to turn himself in which he actually does, which is just bizarre, but he turns himself in. But so they have one guy in custody, but now they know for sure that somebody else or mulch people committing,

multiple murders still in the same area, so it just kinda was a gut shot for law enforcement because as they were, trying to figure out well now do we do? How do we work it and they dedicate a lot of their resources to that person? I have to go get temper. They still have a crew trying to figure out who committed the the other murders that gives herb time another another murder. So it's just gets. Continues to get worse. Yes, you say February 13th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy three three in Santa Cruz, Fred. Peres. Seventy two years old of veteran prize boxer as well Herbert, is going to get some firewood for his family for his parents and he hears the voices again so tell us what he does and

very much different than all the other cases. There is a witness, so tell us about Fred. What does he do an? What does the witness see able to provide the police. Yeah this was the final, So if you were on this case and it well friend the military man I'm a huge fan of military 'cause. I was too much sissy to join, so I always regretted that, but he's so boxer and well loved in the community and he's out car lots of in unfortunate, herb drives by see this guy weeding and instantly he hears a voice, and he later said, you have actual a craving to kill again, but in this case it wasn't the voice that we've got To understand a little bit with the whole, you know if you kill this guy will,

Dave everybody because of the earthquake. This one was reference to his father and he said later that he was telepathically communicating with his dad. Have you drove by and looked over and saw Fred, and he claims his dad told him, because you said he was he's going out to get wood firewood November. Here's a guy herb who has killed numerous people yet he's back with his folks kind of living. Quote: unquote: sort of a normal live kind of role along if you will but he's a full blown murder in serial killer, please touching would anyway, the Minister of Dad told him that if he he did did not deliver a stick of wood until he killed somebody. So.

He said he argued with this voice about killing his own uncle. This dining he knows, but the voices argued back in Florence Edges. So anybody so he ends up driving by said he passes Fred stops this car pause out the rifle that he stole from the kids that he killed up in the hillside, wind upsetting dating shoots and kills, him and then uh almost like, without a saw it gets into the car, put the rifle back over on the seat slowly drives away. I mean like two to three miles: doesn't tear off doesn't try to elude anybody just kind of slowly pulls away on, but Mikey mentioned there was a witness to this one. And that was huge- that was kind of a basically after so many murders

Finally, a lead, I'm so broke the kids kind of wide open, while she also got the direction of the v. Go the make of the vehicle description of the witness, but you, more importantly, license plate number. So soon after you say, a police officer notices spots of the vehicle. Anne, how dramatic was this this takedown, this arrest of moments? You know you know you would like to see it. Play the shootout in her, was shot and killed and that's been the story, but is super uneventful. He Basically, it is kind of uh Interesting to me that Ed Kemper called after years of doing what I was doing a turn himself in and filled later said that you can always tell them killed,

and being on the run if you will and just kind of gave up so, but this officer sees it sees, the car is responding to a shots. Fired call rolls up, takes down car immediately puts verb in custody and put him back in his pawn. Find the dumb plans a rifle find the handgun finds that pocket knives that he many of the murders and they book this guy in the in the jail for the Fred Perez Shoe still not knowing right away that this person that they arrested and killed for this quote unquote. Random murder game mom? Sarah cruise was actually there circular that killed all those other people. There's there's a as this thing on for just gets more and more bizarre.

Soon, as he's in custody right to that, they asked him, would you like an attorney or July, to call somebody and he would just break out laughing uncontrollably and then suddenly Yell silence and said things like you: people were responsible for the, one million people killed in world war? Two yep. Yeah. You mean he just got off. You you talk about now, yeah you, you talk about what they found once they kicked or kick the door down in his apartment tell us about some of the things that they found and what they get kind of the evidence what it tied them to things that they didn't know previously. What did they find this apartment and Kind of evidence did they find there to tie them to other murders yeah, so that was that was an interesting thing, so they get a search warrant,

and they, when they were trying to talk to at the police station, he was blowing their minds. He just was all over the place yet weird cat choose one I think said legalized I said in in rhythm, and he would I mean he did it. Basically, sleep doubt be investigators. I don't know what what the hell. They had to be honest with you, but they serve a search warrant. This place and they, I think they find Bible uh, which state track down later to too church, where a father to me had been killed, They found a an address book listing with James is Recent address, so you know they they, like you like holy crap. We've got a double homicide out there, that we have no no idea and now we're serving a search warrant at this guys house who killed Fred Perez now there's this, and so they found a lot of newspaper clipping.

Of all the killings. So it was kind of like a trinket collector. If you will some of these serial killers like to keep trinkets what they've done They found a note that he had written, which is kind of all over kind of it. Just kind of was weird because they. Here's this little guy he's he's. He's a dim unitive man is, is what they described him as, but this ballistics on his his handgun and it matches the killings at least some of the killings and so they just they're starting to build this case and as each one is each piece of evidence that has a connection to some of these murders. They start adding them to his total. If you will- and they start thinking, you know he's responsible for for quite a

you have these murders. I mean they started looking at Joan, which was Jordan JAM Kathleen. The two boys, but you know too little kids, father to me. And I I think, as he's in custody, when they first pick up up, they law enforcement discovers the for campers, okay up in the hills, and so you know here you go. You got ed. Kemper and custody who's confessed to a murders is the need to killer one of the most disgusting serial killers of our time. Now you have another guy who killed prayers and now you've linked him at least circumstantially to a couple. Other murders now he's a serial killer, but now as there as he's in Custer, you find four more bodies an you know. Just they don't know what to think. They were kind of hoping that maybe her had killed,

kids up in the campground, but they don't know for sure and they had to try to build their case and put together. So it was. It was a very challenging case to put all these things together, I think I included in the book a little excerpt from one of the QA is one of the interrogations of Herbert and it just it signifies. It demonstrates how. Lucid, he could be in one moment how off he could be in another, but they really have to do a lot of work. To put these, murders together and put them on Herbert Molen and lo and behold as their building there case and dealing with it. You have Ed Kemper in one Michelle and you have

rolling in the other and Herbert Mullin was was bullied unbelievably believe he buy a camper. When I talked about that a little bit of book two, Yeah he was trying to bully psychologically physically, six foot, nine and the guards thought it was hilarious that these two guys would be back to back cell enough for well some very, very interesting back and forth, and so also that this was going to be that the the judge determined that they needed to see is the competency to be able to stand trial. So there was two psychiatrists court order. Psychiatrist and then, as a result, they said. Well, we know we need to have thirty, three

psychiatrist. What was the diagnosis from all three of those psychiatrists yeah? So he originally Herb tried to represent himself in court and the judge is absolutely not that's not going to happen so Misty employed, and that was a riot act. If you will court, it was very difficult for stuff to get done. 'cause, her, but randomly blah blah about stuff. But he was given quite a few. Psychological evals and every single one of them came back saying that he was paranoid, schizophrenic, ' They all all three people and they. They did not argue about him being paranoid schizophrenic. They sometimes argued about how will it be? How severe the case of a paranoid schizophrenia

was, but without a doubt, all three agreed that he was so ring from schizophrenia, and he had some sort of serious mental illness which today, if that came up that, may get somebody off of murder, but back in that there was no way that the judge that the DA's office anybody was going to let her work slide for what he had done, even if he was having a mental illness. If you will, but as you raise that what happened at trial was that they broke this down and took great great care in in examining very carefully his statements as to assigning his guilt and he did make damaging statements about things like revenge rather than sticking to his story that he killed all these people to to ward off potential earthquake.

There was other motivations, it seemed and the idea of the rotten rule of not knowing right from wrong. But then there was issues of whether this person not fitting the league definition of insanity from doing things like covering up their crimes and doing things like eliminate ing witnesses which would not be consistent with the unorganized will say an uncaring insane mind yeah. That was key because you know the defense psychologist said that Herbert was insane. The prosecution psychiatrist said that he was saying, but then they have that third party that you were talking about in his testimony crushed Herbert's

criminal case, because he made it very clear that herbs motivation for some of the murders was what he called pure hatred and because of the pure hatred, motivation and the fact that he took steps to discuss. That is what he had done in eliminate witnesses. Uh. You know the mean when you're talking about with revenge, he he told the court that Jim introduced him to LSD And so that road, his life, so he took revenge and in that that statement and what Dr Charles Morris said, which was the third kind of independent party, if you will that's what was used to victim, that was what was used to convince the court that he was not insane. He new, at least at some point during these killing sprees. What he was doing was wrong. And he was going to be held accountable for it. Another interesting feature,

to this unusual feature is Herbert demanded to take the stand so tell us what. That was characterized by and how much did it help or hinder him in what he did say when he did take the stand, and what did he try? That with what did he say as a defense on the stand but he was all. If I remember correctly, he was all over the place he he he managed to go on the stand. His attorneys did not want to the stand so when he got up there he kind of rule the court. You know he liked. He liked that everybody was was looking at him. He he he like that attention, but he went on a rampage blaming everybody, play his family is friends teachers

the military and then he started again, you would have those moments of being very clear and in moments of kind of what the hell talking about you know he started talking about he stay stuff like I am posing as a designated leader. My generation talk about the Einstein, connection and reincarnation and how he was people work sending to his killings, and you spoke to him telepathically. Really just like Jesus there's, a guy dresses up nice and can can speak very convincingly at at certain points. But then he just goes on these tangents. It really hurt his case because they could see, as he is demeanor and anger. And frustration would pour out in the courtroom- and he was trying to when you took the stand-

It just was obvious that he could. He could easily kill somebody. You know because he would quote unquote. Snap. No in the end, what did the jury conclude? How did the court case go? What was the he was charged for ten murders initially first degree for ten, not the other three tell us why. That was the case and also how it ended up in terms of shaking out in terms of actual charges and convictions for murder yeah. So he did rocket charge with all of the the murders- and that was a unique part of this case to the fact that it was believe at some point, at least with in the beginning stages, that he

and I find this hard to believe, but but this is what the court says- studies document in in the court case, but that the Some of the crimes were a passionate somewhere. He was not completely you said an aware of what he was doing, which you know. If I was the defense attorney, I would be trying to convince the jury that if, if my car being Herbert was quote unquote in saying when he killed a couple people. How is he saying when he killed the other people right right? So I think it really muddled the court case and confused people, but as he. Tried, as his defense attorney tried to Vince the jury that. He he you know this guy was was

being framed in that he had a mental health issue and just needed help, and if he would go on his meds it didn't work. Herb as they were, trying to these two, you know the prosecution and defense attorneys where giving their closing statements. You know traditionally one side says there is peace and the other side says their peace and that's the end of its breath. The case rests with the jury. That. Wasn't the case of this one because they, as both of them, tried to represent their cases about herb. He would interject. He could he would Scream uncontrollably could make odd sounds. He would interrupt everything uh that he could, but in

in the end, the jury found him guilty of two counts of first degree: murder, which was for Jim and Kathy. So strangely think about this He is convicted of first three murder for killing gym, but not his wife he's convicted of first creamer. Killing Kathy, but on our two sons and to me, especially as a law enforcement number an investigator. I just don't get it, but I over there. I don't know how it went that way, but they did cited that eight of the other murders were second degree murders, because they conclude The jury concluded that he killed on impulse and were premeditated so that's why he kind of skated some of those charges. Now a shocking as that is for some people. But legally there likely

the weather was never mind likely. There was a justification why they couldn't get those first degree murder convictions, but they got ten lady talk about. There is some other movement and four. Charges for the other three, but you also talk about the idea of that. He is still eligible for parole that this sentence that he's given gives them and eligibility for parole tell us when that first eligibility for parole was and when the next one is yeah. So in California, if you're convicted of murder and then life in prison. You will have a a hearing in the original court documents it was supposed to be two thousand and twenty which obv We were coming up to real quick when that court hearing or that court date was set in that sentence was set.

Things have changed in California. Almost you know night. I mean you can really commit some serious heinous crime in California, not get much time and, as a result, any cases previously are now so addicted to the new laws, and so in two thousand and six. So forty teen years. Prior to that two thousand and twenty date he had heard his first review board and it's called a border prison terms that they sit you down with three or four other people and at that first hearing he tried to explain he had changed and stuff, but he couldn't answer any of the questions. Didn't have any game plan as to what we do. If you came out, and so the Ford said. Well, we don't think it's time read it to be free. Yet so

they declined to allow him to leave, and so he don't become over. A bummer for him- and you know I don't feel bad from at all I mean he he mer numerous people- and you know, I think you kind of got off with those second degree. Murder charges versus first degree charges but- we also had a hearing two thousand in eleven. So it was, five years after that hearing and so again same thing, he came in the court, he was, or he can to the hearing. He was little bit more better prepared. He started to save some. Buzz words that these full hearings are review boards. Twenty to which is, you know, I've changed. I take full accountability for my actions, I want to get a job. I want to find a place to stay,

want to be a successful contributing member of society, so he kind of hit the buzzwords you know they want to hear but He still was not able to uh. Explain really and convince them that he was prepared to go, and so the review Board said hey. We appreciate we you're to do. We preach date that you're you're doing ok and it when I say: ok, he wasn't uh. We had a few months in prison that I mentioned in the book that Board brought up, but he's eligible again in twenty twenty one, which is not too far away. I don't know if she'll get released he still doesn't really have a game plan. As far as you know, what he's gonna do you, but I don't know what we'll see. California,

very, very interesting and how they view criminals now grocery she right now, and so I don't know, if he's going get that chance, Think you'll be around. Maybe seventy three or four. In twenty twenty one, so you know he's these fish quickly not going to be able to do. Quite you know too much. I don't know if you will just go If he comes out it goes on welfare, and you know the citizen. This take care of am tax dollars, I'm not sure, but I haven't feel based on everything in this case and and the fact that how went down and and everything around in so many families and son in the community and talked about it. I just don't really see him getting paroled anytime soon. I think will be happy to hear that I will New with thank you very much, Chris see elsewhere.

For coming on and talking about deadly voices, the true story of serial killer Herbert Mullin. It has been fascinating, of course,. Herbert Mullin, Edward Kemper, you can't get more prime example, the most shocking killers and crime. History want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about this book deadly voices for those that might want to contact. You look at other work. You have a facebook page website. Tell us a little bit about how people might look at other books and contact you so desired. Yeah, I can catch me up on Facebook as Cl Swinney. That's what on Amazon, also winning pretty much all the social media sites, I'm under also any When I do these shows, I I use a book and I kind of make some notes, and I sign it. So if uh, maybe you want your wet listeners if you wanna uh made it through

email me or something I'll give you my email address I'll, send it out free a signed copy of my book, but my email address is theclswinneyyahoo at Yahoo. Dot, com. H g c l S w, I n n E Y at Yahoo dot com. First person. Email me all cinema, free, signed copy of this book sounds great Thank you very much Chris for another great interview hope to talk to you again real soon goodnight. Thank you, Sir bye bye, goodnight.

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