Hi, I'm J, foreigner c, o Quicken loans. Thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovation with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a quick loans, thirty or fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty or fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine percent, a PR four point: zero eight percent calls to day at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dotcom, reeks of exchange and one point: five percent be receiving just gonna break off across information, intonations equalising letter, glistens nobody states and was under thirty. I am J Foreigner C, o Quicken loans. Thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovation with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a quick loans, thirty or fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty or fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine percent, a PR four point: zero eight percent calls to day at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dotcom, reeks of exchange and one point: five percent be receiving just gonna break off across information international legal. Having one listens, nobody states and was under thirty nine-

talk, radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening. This is your host Dansu Panski for the program, true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime, history and authors that have written about them. There are more than sixty serial murderers in canadian history

for too long awareness of serial murder in Canada. I I'm Jay Farner CEO of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea, a better idea, maybe to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point. Ninety nine percent APR four point: eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocketmortgage dot com break. Subject: change one point: twenty five percent of receive this kind of across information conditions. Equal housing lender license plates a number, thirty, that's been confined to West Coast, child killer, Clifford Olson, schoolgirl, murderers, Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka, along with one of most prolific serial killers in history, Robert Picton, unlike America Canada's been viewed as a nation untouched by the shadow of serial murder, then game, Colonel Russell Williams and his bizarre homicides in cereal home invasions, which sensational news worldwide on the internet, television ended news.

Papers and magazines. The reasons for Canada, serial killer blackout is clear until now Such information has never been compiled and presented in a single, concise work, cold north Millers is a wake up call this details and haunting account of Canada's worst monsters analyzes their crimes, childhoods and inevitable. Downfalls. The book that was featured this evening is cold nor killers, canadian serial murder, with my special guess, journalist and author Lee. Mel are a welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing, Lee Miller thanks for having me on them. Thank you very much for coming and this is a very interesting, as you know, maybe the audience knows as well, I'm living in Winnipeg and born in Ontario. So this is a eva, more interesting to me, serial killers. I had no idea about so. First off

question that I often asked many of the authors is what brought you to this idea of writing a book about Canada. Serial killers. You've got at least sixty serial killers profiled in this book. What brought you to this project? What compelled you to want to do a book about Canada's worst monster? originally, I was going to write a fiction book of Series of detective stories and I was going to have an Rcn the profiler who went all over Canada solving these various murders, and I started thinking about the murderers that I was Miller within Canada, the serial murders that is- and I could only come up- like Bernardo Olson and picked in at the time. So but I didn't want to duplicate something that had been done in real life. So I decided to do a little bit.

Digging and what on earth that. I wonder if so many interesting cases that I actually became more interested in writing a book on on fixing the actual hidden story of through a murder intended that, rather than my fictional mystery story, sure. Now, how did you? How did you start this because being in Canada myself to not that I'm a serial killer expert, but I had often have what can be considered serial killer experts on this pro from America. You know the heart that really hard of true crime and people that are very there. So Sarasota We considered experts now what was your sore of information, and was there anywhere you surprise that at that you didn't know this Were you surprised at the lack of information. And what are your sources of information to find out is all the lists of serial killers in Canada and the information behind their crimes and their convictions.

Well. I started with the internet, which is I the perfect tool for, searching? I went into newspaper archives. Pretty much. Every major newspaper all over Canada looked at some court documents looked at books that have been written on some of the cases specifically and even watched a few television programs just trying to green uh the information I could on it as you. Probably know our court system is so much more closed than the US is it's getting information goes so she was released. How do we seem to have a tab, technical, difficult

Let me see what's going on here, no problem there, your goalie, we just lost you for about a few minutes so or a minute or so so, let's go back, you were. Talking about how canadian system versus the American So much more clothes and you were scavenging- you were really scrounging for information And then we lost you in the signal that was, that was too much it? You know I was a scavenger. I I took any available sources I could. If I got lucky, I was able to get site psychiatrist reports or documents things like that but so a lot of the time I was going through newspapers or books that have been published say on some of these cases A lot of the books are out of print too, so that's track them down. That was yeah. That was my main source. I wasn't able to speak with any any of the killers or anything like that.

What you don't have a room in in with your talking about sixty cases or sixty murderers with multiple at least three, so you're talking about a lot of murders. If you went through that, no one, no one could put up at Saint Croix. That would be real manifesto. So what I found, sing, for you know again we're talking to a world audience here, and a lot of people aren't so from Clifford Olson. They must be from Haywood Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka and Robert Picton, and then are some other Think Colonel Russell Williams, but but we talk later in the program? If we've got a little bit of time, I think we will just about the latest development Canadians are really competing in this serial killer, sweepstakes or at least bizarre killer sweepstakes anyway we're trying to get notice? So, let's go back in and talk about the lesser known serial killers in Canada that have a really I mean I found this fast,

name just doing some of the research and looking through your book, some of the very interesting cases that are unique, regardless of whether they're Canada or American, and tell us about tell us about Paul. Jordan- are the alcohol killer. Let me see Gilbert Paul Jordan yeah. He also had a number of aliases. I think there was a Gilbert Paul else kept changing his name every time we come out of prison, but this guy is started in Vancouver in the 60s. He was become about geeky, looking guy balding with glasses and had absolutely no self confidence, and I had a number of jobless station and rape charges. I believe a thing with that. I find from being a factual predator was

He was also a complete alcoholic and often polish off forty ounces of sixty ounces of liquor in a day, so he kind of combine the two into this really bizarre signature where he would get some sex workers from Vancouver and from a fine downtown area, and he would take them to hotel or back to his barber shop and he would the play drinking games with them, which she would always wins. If he had kind of an iron liver by that point, and then when he passed out unconscious, he would pour the rest of the contents down their throats and they would die of alcohol poisoning and he would them as they were dying and I imagine probably was still ripping them after they were dead. So it's probably one of the most unique signatures that a serial killer is ever employed in it

so have the handy side effect of being able to pass off your victims is just alcohol overdoses. There was some controversy in court, though, because again he got eight to ten. Women died by this way. So by the time people had heard, Well, this there was some controversy in court as to whether they could ever ever prove that what he was doing was Actually murder that that you're speaking about tell us a little bit about that, because there's a little bit about that this guy was known for a little while and then. Finally, Tell us how he was actually convicted and what was his inevitable Fayed himself? Oh I can tell you is an inevitable fate right off the bat and it it's quite startling. Actually. We have the nearest offender law in Canada, where you you're somebody that's convicted of multiple heinous crimes. You can get this designation where you're not allowed to

be let out of prison, but amazingly they kept even after he was convicted of these serial murders. Kept letting him out of prison, and he re offend again. Not necessarily with the murder but with preaching You know his parole or minor crimes or sex crimes, and so essentially he kept defending until the day he eventually died and they they never really figured out that they should just keep them in prison. It's strange to me Yeah was again, I think it's. The controversy was that there was, you know I mean it's a hard thing to prove that what he did other than people willingly drinking alcohol together, so unless you have this reliable eyewitness and we won't board american audience or world audience with what's wrong with Canada in terms of

regarding intoxication as a major excuse for murder, but you know our friends across the border. Don't have a similar device, Alcohol actually can demand murder or reduce murder, to something like manslaughter so and I'm not sure about every other country, but I'm pretty sure that there are few countries. If an have that same sort of as you know, by reading being a student, the media that that it's almost routine drop murdered, slaughter because of intoxication so Yeah I mean that go ahead, no go ahead, so I was just going to say that could have been a factor there's a some things that are interesting to me, for instance, that when they did an autopsy on the one of the victims, ivory rose Oswald they found it.

Get a blood alcohol level of zero point. Five one and death by alcohol poisoning normally occurs at four. So to me that I mean that's very suspicious. How does she keep drinking after she would be? dead plus they have. They also had audio recordings with him. Saying strange, to them like mom, one more drink, maybe down the hatch. You know basically egging them on to drink themselves, into unconsciousness. So there's to me, there is a lot of proof. Yeah see. The thing is that that's what I again an american audience might find odd that this guy's, you just said this guy committed eight to ten murders, and yet he still It is not in prison for the rest of his life, one two three four, five, six third devices in other countries where this negligent behaviour, regardless somebody dies in that someone has to be restored

model and the sentences are much stiffer, so you there wouldn't be a serial killer like this in other countries? I would think, and certainly certainly, definitely as far as my research is not a chance in America, now tell us about it, some other notorious murderers in Canada, you just name some and then we'll discuss. Those ok ok. Well, you said you're from Winnipeg. Let's start with Michael Vescio. Are you aware of him as a little bit, but uh tell us more about Michael Vashon, what you found out? Ok! Well, let's go back to what you said before about the definition of a serial killer, being three victims. Actually, after conference by the FBI and various academic experts on the subject in San Antonio, they decided to drop it to two now

If so, it's only two- and there is a lot of controversy over that- so my book does feature a lot of offenders that have only been convicted of two, but at the same time it was a reasonable assumption. They defend again, and one of them is Michael Vescio. He was in Winnipeg. He was after the right after world. Or two and basically, someone was raping these or sexually assaulting these boys in their early teens or children at gunpoint in Winnipeg, and whenever they refuse them, he would shoot them, and so he ended up killing two boys, I'm actually caught him by by finding 'em in thunder Bay.

After he robbed the bank and they linked to the weapon through ballistics to thee when a peg murders and that sell Michael vessel was brought to justice for their fascinating to because it my hometown, Thunder Bay, so yeah, oh, really, yeah and I grew up. I grew up with a guy named Vescio, so there you know Vescio family would be familiar with me too. So I was very interesting. Yeah they come yet it could be related. Now. What was the fate Michael Vescio, show was convicted of the two murders. Obviously, so he ended up The end of a hangman's rope, swift, justice. Yeah, they didn't mess around back in those days. You had a couple of months now tell us about tell us about, maybe someone from another part of the country. So we get a little geographical idea that it's not just West Coast

tell us about some other serial killers, not known to the general public. Ok, well, there's probably to RON the most interesting serial murderer was a seventeen year old boy by the name of Peter Woodcock. And he was operating in the late late, one thousand nine hundred and fifty six in early one thousand nine hundred and fifty seven, he was mobile, but on a highly mobile. But you wrote a bicycle around Toronto and essentially you would lower these little children in two parts of Toronto, like ravines or down to cherry Beach, which then quite deserted, and he choke them and beat them bite them, and this kind of strangle and suffocate them into depth. These very sort of,

spontaneous hand, crimes to kill these children, and there is also a really immature sexual element to them too, like he would undress them. Look at the bar, bodies and then re dress them, but without actually sexually assaulting them, and the first two victims were young, always like around nine years old. The third victim was a girl. I believe shares about four hundred, and he gets he killed her by thrusting a branch into her vagina, so they finally catch this weird kid with glasses, whose writing all over Toronto and acting quite suspiciously, and they put him in a mental hospital and he stays there from nineteen fifty seven to nineteen. Ninety one, when they finally decide that he's been through, enough rehabilitation that they can allow Mount on a day pass, and you know what he doesn't even get off the hospital grounds:

as soon as he's out of the hospital he murders, a fellow patient Dennis Kerr Sodomises his corpse and then walk through the police station and turns himself. Then yeah yeah amazing, it's hard to beat something like that credible now what about when bone? Ok, so now we're moving into comeback, win, Bowden, was known as the vampire rapist or strangler bill, and he kind of surfaced in one thousand. Nine hundred and sixty nine Bowden's signature, which is kind of like a psycho sexual expression which we use to link crimes, was biting into the breasts of his victims. Hence the term vampire rapist, so in one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine one thousand nine hundred and seventy that zero, he killed three

women in Montreal he'd go back to their apartments with them, and then he, sexually attacked them and bite their breasts on two of those occasions, and the whole city was in a panic looking for this guy and then it stopped, but he resurfaces in Calgary AB and they say he murders a woman there and they're able to link him to that crime through the bite marks, so there's actually the first time that I believe bite mark evidence was used in North America to convict any kind of offender, and it's important because later it would be used to apprehend TED Bundy, but it started in Canada, yeah very interesting yeah. It's very interesting twist now what about William, Patrick Fife and then he

is suffice. He's been convicted of five murders in Montreal, but he's a suspect in much many. More tell us a little bit about William fight, so the last number I think they take them. It was nine Willie, Piper is known as the killer handyman. He actually, this first murder, they believe, was one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine. He wasn't apprehended one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, so he was killing over a twenty year period. His modus operandi was basically to go. You would stop these women that were living on their own various ages and when he was certain that they weren't living with a man or the man wasn't gonna be home, He would often go and knock on the doors and say well. You know the landlord sent me around to fix the sink or something like that, but like a ruse approach

once it gain entry to the house, he'd attacked the women, often raping them, and he would He was a lot of anger and that man, it would stab his victims. Forty four times blood in them beat them severely and then towards the end of his oceans. Here's a serial killer. He was actually torturing them to get their atm codes. So they've got the police got their first. Look at him when he. Was caught on an atm camera accessing one of the women's bank accounts. He was eventually caught by DNA. He but he was already on record and left some dna at one of the crime scenes, and so that was that and they in jail and eventually he confessed to these. These other murders going back in one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine, which they hadn't linked into, so

he's got ninety nine under his belt in yeah. That's a pretty safe bet. Now. We talked about Peter Woodcock, tell us about another interesting serial killer, that people might not have heard about, and the one that people might not I've heard about. Ok, well, there's just a there's, so many of them and there is a guy called Ronald Glen W. He was known as the twenty two caliber killer and lots of serial killers had that moniker over history, but he was actually the first and he was a policeman

in Toronto and he would drive to these sort of countryside just north of Toronto and he would knock on the doors of of house housewives, while their husbands were away, then we're not quite sure how we gain entry to the house. You might have pulled the gun he might've tricked his way in belongs inside. He would rape them at gunpoint and then he shoot them to death, often in front of their children, and because he was a policeman. He was very fresh. Quickly aware, so he would collect a lot of the evidence and shell casings. So he committed these two of these murders in nineteen seventy and then the trail. This went cold and it was cold for twenty five years and then we actually catch 'em in Thunder Bay, committing an armed robbery and they just threw good police work these

the guy who caught him for the armed robbery was at an OPP conference with a guy who was investigating this co case from nineteen seventy, and he mentioned the specific type of gum that Ronald W use this pistol and the guy the police officer investigating the the nineteen seventy murders. He realized that it was the same rare type of gun that they were people, so they eventually linked w those rape murders by a dna sample. Interesting now the unique case. How 'bout tell us about Leopold? Deal oh leopoldi on ok, so that's back in the 60s, he was known as the monster of Pont Rouge memory, cheers me correctly. Basically yeah he was a check

called killer, and he worked around the convexity area, so comebacks capital and what you would do is once again he would use this ruse that we've seen with William five that RON W might have used. It's essentially a way of approaching a victim and his room was to approach these kids and say you know when you like me to take photographs of you to be in this magazine and I'm a photographer, and I guess that those being more innocent time, kids would go with them and I need to take some pictures of them and they eat, but the many years then, can I just drive you out of the country and take some pictures there and once you have the degree and once you have them out in the country, he'd strangle them with. He had like a studded Gare out he made and he'd strangled him with that and then bury the bodies, and he was

eventually identified because he approach a number of kids that didn't go with him and one of them picked them out from a group of photographs of police officers had sex offenders that area so Leopold Beyond was brought to justice in that way, and the interesting thing about him actually was get a kind of Jeffrey Dahmer type deaths in that he went to prison and he was originally supposed to hang, but as he was in prison, a psychotic inmate who thought that he was Lawrence of Arabia, yeah. He he killed Leopoldi on and that guys name is Norman Champagne, and I found out that, the after I wrote Code N killers that champagne was in prison for killing somebody too so technically under the new classifications. That would make him a serial killer so into serial killer LEO called Beyond was killed by another serial killer. Norman

I'm paying you like us, and it happened to be a little tougher than he was or more cycle or interesting, very interesting. How 'bout Edward be? Is it Bola? or role of Edward Rollo Edwards Edward Reel off. Yes, he was Canada's first real killer and he actually committed all of his crimes in the United States. But Bum brother was born in New Brunswick and raise their, and he was an absolute genius of a man. In fact is, though, that is buying from university somewhere and apparently it weighs one about densest brains. As far as wait goes in the world and the rule of law will come of one 19th century serial killers that prayed a lot on his family. He was a very jealous man and domineering so when he

he moved to the United States was there was to New York and he took a wife there who he beat regularly the rest of the family. Didn't like real off. For this reason, so rough decides to get even if half of himself off as a doctor. So when the wife and child of one of his wife's brothers got sick, they asked him to go and tend to her. He poisons harassment and the job death. He then kill his own wife and child, and I and he makes off with their bodies and he's jailed for that he escapes from jail and goes back to New York and attempts to join some kind of criminal ring. Where he's he's the lead, and he's got these underlings under him. They rob a shop and

They shoot a clerk dead in the process and then so that is, accomplices won't tell on him or take his cut of the loot. He kills both of his accomplices, so he didn't. There wasn't really the sexual component to his times that we've seen with the other ones. He was more motivated by his ego, is jealousy and is desire for material comforts and and to see himself as an ingenious criminal. What she was, naturally he was. He was a rather poor criminal if you would have stuck to his strains, which was in languages century, who probably would have done a lot better in my yeah? So you're killing probably doesn't pay that well, no well yeah, it's amazing

you bring him up, but because being so known for his intelligence, yet being such a dismal success as a serial killer is completely incompetent. Yet then we get some on the West Coast. Like Robert pick them you have an eighty seven, I q and looks just like a serial killer, runs a are going. This is a guy that should be caught right away, while he's killed from thirty one to forty, nine plus women, so one of the interesting things I noted while restring serial killers, is that IQ doesn't necessarily equate to success in this free or american listeners. Consider guys like Gary Ridgway, who had an eighty two iq, but he was forty eight women. I think he holds the current.

In the United States yeah and then the thing is you. Then you get a person like TED Bundy, which he was an intelligent guy was politically involved, he could have been a lawyer and he could have been a politician or it could have been very seriously, politically involved, he was charismatic, but then again we will talk about this a little bit after we go a few through a few more murderers, but some of- people it overcomes on their narcissism, overcomes am their need for for infamy. You know the darkside overcomes them in terms of any kind of control. A lot of these guys go from being a little bit more calculated getting not so cal laser is on a downward spiral, but we'll talk about that. A little bit later tell us about another kind of unique killer in Canada name one another one in your book and let's talk about them yeah. Well, we got another guy in Montreal, called and

little COLA Lilo and he was never actually convicted because he hung himself for his trial, but unfortunately that doesn't get you out of my book, those tactics so COLA little they actually caught him. He was already had convictions as a rapist, but they caught him because I guess when he was inside prison, he made friends with a guy called Nick Pacchioni. He was also have the same kind of sadistic rent and one kololo got out of prison. He was murdering these teenage well, converted a twenty year old and a twelve year old girl, but he did it in a way that was extremely organized and he covered it up by lighting fires. I believe he'd get into the house: rapes them. Torture them strangled him to death with a folded towel. Which he called the Mister Spock method. And we only know this about him because he wrote.

About it in letters to pacchioni in prison, but he disguised that he didn't say I did it. He said. Imagine the resist character called Bob Who did this and then, as the prison officials, were intercepting these letters They realized that he was speaking about actual murders or they were unsolved or in some cases, things that had been deemed accidents so when he killed his third victim Jessica Grimard, who was fourteen, he dragged her into the woods and stabbed her to death. Raped her. He sent a letter to pacchioni and this is the one that they intercepted and tip them off and they link them back through his letters to these previous murders. So he's an interesting serial killer in that he managed to commit to murders that one of them was deemed an app one was a suicide, so incredibly organized all kind of relating back to what you said about.

Monday a second ago. He he would have got away with it if he didn't turn to brag about it, but yeah it's like he couldn't keep his mouth shut. He had to tell someone his his narcissism got, got the better of him in it often does, with these guys, that's what trips them up yeah. Well, sometimes it rips them up. I will talk about this a little bit later on. It's a little bit different when you look at a guy like Twichell, the guy I was involved with Sydnie Tear Hughes and you look at it am I not a, and you start looking at while this it's it's different. I think there is some evolution from 'cause we're. Looking at better known cases, the 60s seven, even the turn of the century had some savages and some really diabolic Cool killer, so there is no reason to think that, based on what's going on in popular society that and the Lucama not is very much a reflection of that is that there something else going on. I think in the front page of the Winnipeg Sun today kid

is eighteen years old involved in serious torture and home invasion. Talking about his allegiance to Lou, sopherion his serial killer aspiration so something going on anyway. Yeah. You can bet too just like clear something up: This whole idea that there are these satanic cults, murdering people. It really is a myth. This allegiance to Lucifer is probably he probably has no understanding of Satanism might not even fully believe in it or just be completely locked out on some kind of really hard drug. Worse gets a frantic or something, but that I imagine a kind of like Richard Ramirez

I think it's a big part of his image. You know he knows that by saying I'm alive with Lucifer that it's going to make headlines which it did we're talking about it right now. These guys look for angles: Luka Magnotta. I think he missed all about that. He was looking for as many angles as he possibly could. Did we actually see him eat that piece of flesh that he cut out of the guys buttocks we didn't, he placed it on a fork and showed it to the camera. You know he's got a kitten in there just just to show us how depraved he he is, or he wants us to think he is so yeah. There's there's. Certainly this some kind of generation coming up with serial killers that are out impresses

order started or just general murderers that are out to impresses with their depravity and yeah. I think that would be a reflection of this cult of celebrity kind of civilization that we live in right now, where it's better to be infamous or famous for something terrible than to be a nobody, To not exist in the media, I is like the worst possible fate that we can imagine in our modern age, yeah, and it really I mean it's, not a new phenomena I said. Well, it's an evolution, but really it's just a camera is just a little bit behind America. I said she seems, you know we're definitely affected by their culture. So a Richard Ramirez doing the same. Thing or or Charles Manson doing the Nat he's saying again aligning yourself with Hitler's pretty good too to get. You know, upset mother that you know. So the thing is Richard Rameras: it used it to his advantage. You got married, had all kinds of women proposing to him and pledging allegiance to him, and really it's just like these guys are just like rock

stars in their trials are just their big moment. Onstage and they'll be remembered and and you know they live on in infamy forever because of the books in the photos and- and so really there wish really does come true, and some people have a little bit of a problem with that. But but I would I think is now is that, because they are the Gary Ridgway's in a robber pictons, where they've got forty nine nine or forty eight. Well, you know these guys are in a rush to get famous so they're going to have to one up each other. I try to do as much multimedia as possible in a shocking as absolutely possible, and you know that's why I say, the Twichell Tear Hughes and Magnotta and Colonel William, it's all sort of influencing each other, because really a lot of these stories don't play that far or that deep into the US? They have a lot of their own serial killers and all kinds of breaking interesting and bizarre news that

you're, not they're, not likely to cover that much from Canada except the bigger high profile cases. But I think that we have is a one upping each other, and I think that is is is a spy actually prevalent in the last few years in Canada. It just seems odd yeah definitely um. There is a guy caught in Toronto. Recently it was after my book was published, called Mark more and he had these delusions that he was like this. Gangster rapper and that he was you know part of policy and going around killing people, but he was just people, total loner, just driving around shooting people with with a hand coming from his car window. You know it's once again. Are reflection of the whole celebrity thing, and I think what's interesting- is that these murderers?

we're talking about like Mc Nada and more end twitching, who are motivated by fame if they tend to not kill very many people before they caught the cot almost immediately, because their screaming out for attention were, if you look at and guidelines gum, Robert Picton and very rich they didn't really want us to know what they were doing. They they weren't big into the thought of being no in the serial killers? I mean in fact pick them still hasn't even admitted to it and Ridgeway talks about it, but he's somewhat reluctant You and you can tell that it was not his point to be a star these regards, motivated by deep, seated, inferiority and rage, and for that even though they kept the very much under wraps they weren't. They were trying to be in the public eye. Maybe they wanted the image of the Green River killer. You know Ridgeway, wanted this whole greener for killer to be in the public eye.

They might have got some satisfaction from that, but I don't think you ever wanted the name Gary Ridgway Link to it and because of that reason I think the more egotistical and the more user does a vehicle fame. So that's likely you are to actually become a serial killer. In fact, like naughty will probably kill one per, and then get caught. Well, I don't you know. All I know is the case that I was involved with and the killer pose the question. Serial killer. That most closely resembled And when I first looked at the case and when I I've obviously went real deep into research. For the book trying to trying to get the book deal, but also just trying to get as much background, and I the killer for a year and in in that year learn as much as I could from you know the, or did the authors, have interviewed. These people have had the opportunity to interview these people and then, of course, guys like Douglas and Ressler, who create

the criminal profiles by interviewing thirty six of the worst serial killers and you sort of get. You know not that you're an expert for that, but you sort of get an idea of serial killer, mind, and it makes no sense for the guy that I, is involved with. That's why I consider him a serial killer for him to have. This was his last crime, because I won't go into it, but certainly that It makes more sense that this was his last crime and when he had a, the Tacular oppurtunity having Susan Saran Duns Stolden gold neck. Says he knew that this would set off the papparazi that were in town because Jennifer Pez was going to be in town within a day or two, and so I think that's what His motivation was so, I think, there's also phenomena in Canada, two where this guy

at least that I was involved with one, have his cake and eat it to do a few years in jail, because he he knew that there was a good chance if I said I'm drunk and I can't remember that this intoxication would mean that he could have everything. You could have same little spin, in jail where he would be a celebrity in his mind and then freedom and still having all his his incredible memories of the of the people that he did kill. So that's my my suspicion in my take on it. From everything that I've research, but I think some of the people that are arrested in Canada, that there isn't it in an immediate response. Once by bringing an FBI trained criminal profilers to interview those people, affectively.

No it's a lot of it is done by psychiatrists or psychologists in the prison and it's funny because they still think that they can rehabilitate some of these people, yeah. I'm a colleague of Mine Doctor Eric Hickey in the US he's a very well respected expert on serial murderers. He came all the way to Kingston to interview Clifford Olson. And they told him in Kingston when he got there, that he couldn't. He could interview a listen because they thought it might disrupt olssons rehabilitation process but complete disconnect from reality. You do not rehabilitate Clifford Olson. This is a guy who was calling the parents of the kids he's murdered from prison and describing them describing to them what he did for them. This isn't Who is, it was able to get Doctor Hickey's home phone number he's a master manipulator. He even before you.

The circular reserve terrible criminal rate of breaking into houses. A complete and utter psychopath ended in a baffles me that the Canadian mental health will look at some like of and then say yeah, you know, we've got a cure him, why? Why would you cure him so that he can be cured and imprisoned, because if you're thinking of letting him out, you probably shouldn't have your license to practice mental health? Well, the thing is Lippert also- and I don't think was by definition insane, but we have an. I won't bore the audience. 'cause But we have our unique case of instantly now out on day passes. After three years of after the bus be heading on the greyhound Anet look, like he's going to be a sort of a poster so for psychiatric rehabilitation in terms of of it. Guy can they're talking about incredible incredible. You know incredible cure from schizophrenia. The medication they wish all of their mental build patients would respond in such an effective. In such a

profound way, and so you just you Already see they've already spoken about it within five years. This person will be free based on they rehabilitated him. With a draw And I think our american neighbors and other people in the world that's why? I think it's an interesting case, and I think that's why true true crime in Canada is just getting more and more interesting when this stuff goes to court in America. A lot of states are still death penalty. There definitely is most states have a device parole without any possibility are pardon me life sentence without any possibility of parole. Here it's not a foregone conclusion we the the doc known Baptist, kids to death, and so amazing and it seems to be more as as president shows More and more that were excusing murder and, like you say we, still think we can rehabilitate killers an we routinely. Let them out before their life sentence is on Peru, call to see there there

their safety, how safe they can be in the public and then we routinely let them out so. Very good. I have a whole chapter. I think it's the last chapter of the book devoted to that word. The system has made errors in judgment and bailing out letting dangerous offenders out of prison, and that's one of the reasons why I decided to write the book, because I thought the true story of the history of serial murder in Canada. Hadn't been told- and you know to give you some people sixty cases to look at and just say how do you think things are are functioning here? That was a big part of it, but also I'd like to get back to this idea. But I mean the saying that Vince Lee is cured and then also doing mental health work on someone like Clifford Olson, aura, Paul Bernardo, comparing Leet

one of those guys. It's like comparing banana to a great fruit. I mean the guy killed because he was extremely psychotic and when I use the words I caught up, I mean it is proper sense that he was scattered frantic. He was literally probably having the equivalent of maps of acid trip like he was completely flipping out, hallucinate ing his whole sense of reality was distorted, so he's not killing out of vindictiveness he's killing because It's like being in a nightmare only he wants to escape it. I'm sure that it yeah that's, definitely yeah they can control, it would medic with medication. I dont think that they should be letting him out so so soon, definitely because if we stop taking pills which a lot of parenthood gives the planet's do

go to think the bills are the problem. You know, then you can usually go back into their heads space, but I mean when you look at some of my tat. Yeah you might be able to rebuild it somewhere is killing just because their psychotic, but there's a difference between psychotic psychopathic and everyone knows you cannot rehabilitate a psychopath, it's it's just basic criminology, one hundred and one, and so this is what made me laugh about. The Olsen over working on his rehabilitation. It's like what school did you graduate from? Well, I think it's it's horrible, even So it's just an exercise really with Robert Picton ideas of parole date. The fan families will gather together. They will be anxious while as a parole date, which I just don't understand why you can't have consecutive sentencing and get it and get it. No, I I I agree with you, I'm in complete agreement. It's almost like he's doing the same

as he would for killing one one or two people. You know, there's no difference really. I think that but I mean this dangerous offender law. We use it for people who are likely to commit. Brutal crimes, but haven't actually killed. That's that's when it's usually used. I think that if you're a serial killer, you should qualify for sort of a modified, dangerous offender where you can never get out to meet Us Congress answered the guiding people get both of the year, the worst type of crime, yeah, I radically that is the most dangerous of offender amene rear. I say it now to continue with a couple more cases that you found very, very unique and, and probably bolstered, some of the ideas that you like you talk about in the last chapter, and then you talk about throughout the book sort of. Why is

this one and why is it not known? Why is this information really kind of hard to find? Really, you know it's a question. I'm asked a lot and I don't know what the system's motive is it just sort of exists, and so I only can really hazard this. To you I mean we could say that it's in Canada that we don't sensational things like to do in the United States, or maybe two or lesser extent, in the United Kingdom- that's kind of the positive way of looking at it. But I think that there might be this sort of ideas. You know Canada's the peaceful counterpart of America, and and we don't want to- we don't want to own up to our problems. With these type of offenders. And so I think I think, even in the reactions of a lot of just everyday Canadians, I talk. I talk You. But they don't want to know, and I think if,

your everyday Canadian is like that. Then there's no reason to think that people in higher position of authorities would really be much different. It could be a cultural thing and then you know you can justify laws like that, make it really hard for journalists to get access to to information about these cases I mean we. Can we don't even pictures of these people in court? I don't know what that's about why we can have a picture of Robert Picton in court. While we have to test for the draw am I don't I'm not sure about the purpose of that is, but I don't know. Maybe it is a cultural thing. Well, I think that what we have is a mythology going on that number two things going on and being canadian I've heard this many times where the mare his violent and we're not we well we're not as violent is bogus

so we don't want to own up to our own violence and that we have the same. We don't have the same per per capita murder rates, but we do have again. We have in many cases of incredible murder, an incredible sad surgery, so we're not alone in that. But the thing is that what I think it happens, America is that it's not of owning up is that the film industry in the documentary industry in the newspaper industry in the paper. Industry is american they're not going to shy away from history. Current events or a good story because their journalists and here is some way is somehow we've lost our way. Cbc has some kind of cock, eyed, notion of bias and and uh. The only Canadians, canadian stories look at if it's. If it's historic,

in Bernardo and Homolka trial was historic for what you could learn from it. I mean incredible missteps in bunk tools and chicanery an injustice incredible for Canada to not talk about this and not say endlessly, but To discuss the aspects, not the Gore. People say what we want to discuss the Gore, the gory aspects, the glorious aspects of that of that case, where the trial and the end The injustice, an Karla, Homolka being deemed battered woman and in the chicanery there was from there and a couple and one of the authors, Williams, who try to just tell the truth. Really they tried to railroad the guy, not get the guy public it's and what we could have learned from the picnic case of anybody bothered to read the book is, is is amazing, but we don't so I

think there's something inherently lazy about our first off our journalists because they don't demand at the courts. This transparency there's no such thing, but at least they're not we're not deriving enough information from trials were not learning anything from trials where the police bungled missed opportunities. The judiciary acted Totally improper, we have all kinds of stories like that that and there's not hundreds but some of the The the Picton Bernardo Homolka, the Clifford Olson, those are stories that need to be told and like your book with the sixty serial key incredible tales that hopefully can ad this will read. But I'm sure Americans, because of just interested in great stories, will be interest in this book as well that it's just incredible murders, all kinds of motivations, but it's a phenomenon, we've seen movies in the last few years.

There's so many serial killer series, and movies. So it is a subject of people are interested in the criminal mind so yeah. It is interesting. So ubiquitous in our media and our culture, yet at the same time there studies showing that the serial murder rates are actually declined. Yeah. But I like again, I think that we still see an escalation of Barbera You know we ve had all kinds of cases, the guy that what was torturing his room maiden and wheeled them into the hospital at about eighty pounds. You know guy went from yeah I'm forty to eighty pounds. So we're still getting these. These are cases and again that was a high profile case, but there are cases that most people, don't hear about they're, just not aware of that. They dismiss may Because you're, not looking or maybe because also the case,

in Canada, scratch on four five six seven years. Sometimes so it's hard to have a with memory of what went on talking about seven years spent, so yeah. It never mind is with partner it reminds me when you're saying that there is a guy who murdered is well. He was charged with murdering two prostitutes in no. Actually, I think they were strippers in Niagara falls in two thousand and six and he still hasn't had his day in court. The guys name is Michaels your amp and I keep waiting for news did he just fall off the radar, and then I looked into it and no just for some reason he's. Unlock on the trial. I mean this was six years ago. So what are these innocent? He just spent six years locked up waiting trial. Well, sorry go ahead,

now that- and you know, the other thing is too- we saw so much fanfare over the LUCA Monodic Case- incredible amount of stuff online, an dominate in the news stories probably worldwide to a great extent for a week or two or three weeks, and now the trial will be many two One slash two years. We won't hear anything till the preliminary, then we won't hear anything about the preliminary because of our process. So we won't hear anything about that case for a good couple years, if not three or four years. Yeah. Definitely the only case that really moved along quickly with Russell Williams and that's just because he confessed and he just wanted to get it over and done with, but yeah the minute they start I started pleading not guilty or there's any sort of complication. That's done, I tried it interest that long period, but what am I

this. Is me with magnotta is the amount of international attention that he gets because he puts it on the internet. He does everything he supposed to to meet the qualifications of depraved murderer, so he can in fact necrophilia. He tries to symbolize, the guy or at least tries to show us he put some with a kitten. He dismembered them all these different things to do that and it works. It goes global. It becomes of viral thing, things that you know the canadian Cannibal the canadian Psycho and then at the same time, you've got something like the highway of tears going on in British Columbia. Between sixty nine to present. So I think Amnesty International has estimated something like thirty. Five plus women have disappeared along these stretch of highway

Say in British Columbia, but because the details aren't released- and you know, there's there's no store free angle, like cannibalism or necrophilia, Nobody really knows about it, and so none of the cases get solved in it. There's probably been multiple serial killers stalking that stretch of highway Hwy. The victims are mostly aboriginal and poor, and there's no new, angle so yeah never gets resolved yeah. I think the colonel williams- and you, your book- includes the Colonel Williams case, and what I found interesting was. The colonel Williams case is that one of the victims was bound and gagged, hogtied and, of course, again a really great example: Anna, not beating up on police at all, because police solve murder I have really high rate here at murder, capital of Canada, Winnipeg, but, they also they solve murders, complex,

murders day. They try as hard as they can. It's not An easy job is one of the hardest jobs on earth. As for sure definitely homicide cop but and there is some bungling and there are cases of bungling and with that they thought that the victim, you know, might have tide herself up, and faked it, so that would always be in one of the sexual assaults. Yeah yeah, that's Unfortunately, I think that's just a insensitivity of some police. You did not work in sex crimes. You know was kind of. Respondents type thing, and I believe that that was the initial impression that that they got I'm not sure of the actual sex crimes. Investigators, came away with that impression. No, but that was the first initial. But what I'm saying is that it's a good example of just

the inexperience. That's all again, I don't blame you're right. It's it's exactly what that is. Inexperienced starts getting suspicious. Absolutely the wrong people. What did you find 'cause. I'm just interested what you thought about Russell Williams, the kernel I've done a program about Btk and the trophy taking that he does very similar to BT gave what what did you find about? What was your take on Russell Williams, the colonel, very fascinating. I yeah. I think that you made the right connection there. Whenever I compare Russell Williams to a serial killer another serial killer. I usually go to Btk, sometimes Jerry Brudos because of the whole the cross dressing. Google, and the idea of invading someone else is space. I think that's something that both of those guys share is that Williams wasn't so much

turned on by the idea that he was dressed as a woman in that kind of uh track sense. He was more turned on by the idea that he was invading than the personal clothing of his victims and maybe and maybe thinking of what it would be like to be them Coming home and finding that someone had been in their room and putting on their their clothing. Certain psychological, making that connection to them, yeah they're, both and interestingly there, both military btk, I think, was also in the air force. Wasn't Bt was a reverend So if he did a stint in the military, but he was a he was a sex offender. Then he was then he was a practicing reverend. That's that's what that was Btk, but

yeah, he was in the air force and pretty sure that he could have been for. I think that go ahead. I think the two of them almost look at lucky as like a military operation. You know a special ops like they're in their own fantasy, where there some kind of super cool commando who infiltrates an enemy, strong golden sneaks around and perfectly controls the situation. It's almost like part of this. Yet I cannot command of fantasy that day that the combined with their sex offender status as our sex offender proclivities. And it's some. That would be the main comparison that I I draw between. The two is this sort of this fantasy, this illusion of being.

On being on a mission, might be today would call his arm he because victims, heads or the ones that he didn't kill they would be potential hits they put it in the pseudo military language, and so I think I think that influences their fantasy process. Well, absolutely, and the thing is to the colonel and then you have a reverent. You know you have the TED Do you working at a suicide hotline and his friend, is you know, crime super off. And rule you know it's yeah, it's interesting, the people, so you know I couldn't tell I mean what, like you, could I don't know what they're looking for exactly, but there's a lot of people a lot, military, guys, borough bear had been on the program with body count,

serial killer. There was in the military. A lot of guys are next week, Anthony soul. He was really good, good soldier he enlisted, but he was in trouble before, and it certainly Salute Lee in trouble after, but the military is is, is lot of these guys are pretty effective military people, so yeah they, a lot of them will gravitate towards positions where they have authority or power. Like there's, been a number of police officers after Btk left in the Terry. His job was actually as a compliance officer. You know which is basically someone who goes around finding people, because their lawns aren't cut to the right. Grass is cut to the right to blame Thor. You know he catches their dogs and punch their dog,

obviously kind of thing yeah a lot of them gravitate towards these any places where they can have some measure of control. I think in the case of Williams, though, it was more that he was trying- and this is just my guess- that he was trying to stay off these deep seated desires and deviant fantasy. That he'd had all his life and I think he became sort of a workaholic to try and compensate for that. And then he gets into middle age. He sort of reached about as high as it can go. I mean his base commander of Canada's most important air force base, he's getting kind of near the end of sex life. I mean not the complete end, but

he certainly is starting to think about it. More apparently, hadn't had sex with those life for two years before the crimes, so I think there was a guy who always had this sort of dv fantasy side and had done everything he could to stave it off, and he got to this one point in his mid 40s and he looks around and there's nowhere left to go. There's there's no other avenues to pursue, and at that point he said with a crisis, and he just gives into it. That would that would be my anneli in that case, but when I you know you're you're talking about Dino certain trigger and now with the only issue. I you know. That sounds like a lot more reasonable than when I read in Macleans in some some canadian a journalist, editorialized about Colonel Russell Williams, and I think that they should read some books about serial killers, because

I know what you're saying that that probably I mean obviously wasn't killing when he was twenty or thirty or twenty five and he and he had to have concentrated on his studies. But from the book I read from David Gibbs, I believe his name was is that he just wasn't oddball all the you know throughout his life anyway, a loner sort of a guy that just really was awkward. And so yeah. I think these sexual fantasies he acted upon them and he escalated very, very quickly, which you very well It may be right. The only problem I have is trying to because he be the colonel, because somebody become something of some importance. Somehow or other they must have had some kind of you know twist to their character. They still could have been a great military officer and they still could have been, like you say, had deviant, murderous fantasies

Well early and all it was was obviously he suppress them and the way to suppress and the only way to suppress keep busy and certainly that's what he was a very busy person. So They can live mental eyes, especially were we're talking about organizer pillars like Bundy, like Bt K like Russell Williams. They have sort of like in their normal life, the kind of life that you and I would have where they have there. Relationship and they have their job and then there's the secret life that they have too, and I think that in the case of Williams, he just managed to focus enough on that. First, normal life. Long enough. He was able to use that to get him through and it worked until his mid 40s, and then he got bored with it or frustrated with it, and when that collapsed, the deviant that he'd been suppressing with the normal life that

could step, and that would explain the rapid acceleration and the thing is, though: he really. We really don't know the absolute truth, because it's a very interesting phenomenon is that just because he confessed- and just because he didn't say, plead not guilty and drag, the judicial system, through the you know, through the muck well, but actually we would drag his family in the military. I think it was very conscious of what he had done. Two the military, and maybe what would happen to his wife and family, so he was not a stupid man and so, even though his. What is narcissism very strong with these guys. He thought he was untouched well, that's why he made you know the big grand errors. But he did do the thing is I think that there's some uh the things going on there that he realized that the military

was not going to have where he would plead not guilty, and they would drag this out for a couple years and it's uh. There's another part of every I think, every serial killer, as you can attest to different, even though it does share some characteristic, certainly certainly very very good point. Often I'm asked when I come on these sorts of programs. They'll say so tell me: what are these guys will have? in common, and usually I have to pull out an answer about you know. Typically, they have a strong fantasy life that you know where power and violence with sexuality, but it's not true of all of them. That may be true with most of them But it's simply not true of everyone who who myths, cereal murders, so sometimes I'm tempted to answer and an end by no means fishing facetiously, but just answer: well, you know they kill people than they stop, and then they kill people, that's really what they haven't common. If you want

take all serial killers and put them in a box. That's the one thing they have in common. Yeah, and then you know you still what you're getting now is people trying to play catch up and as a sophisticated, true crime audience that listens to this program and read is true crime books by by the major troop some authors, like yourself and other people. These people know that it just because You know this idea that all serial killers of tortured animals when they were young, this other idea again it's a canadian idea. I curse the Development of this is that now that your boss can be psychopathic, so we take, word psychopathic and we take the teeth right out of it: 'cause a pair your boss can be, and the guy your neighbor and your husband and you can be, and so it takes any kind of magnitude or any kind of importance out of the term,

psychopathic killer and, like we were talking before, there's a huge difference between Vincennes Lee and and Sydney, Tear Hughes or Magnotta or other serial killers are any these. Other serial killers in Canada, because they're far more scary than the person that did not have an intent to kill. Certainly, I can admit to that and whether they can respond to medication or not. It's not. The other person is the sonification of evil. That's what these serial killers are: Clifford, olssons in Bernardos and the pictons in that ear, uses and Twichell's. These people are just evil lots and that's the scary part They look at as we seeing with Luka Magnotta and Twichell and some of these other people. Sometimes they look pretty handsome pretty normal, pretty boy next door and that's deserving for people

Yeah, but I mean it's it's kind of part of getting back to serial killers. Cuz I mean seem too been one at least hasn't been linked to other murders, but we get back to the idea of serial killers. I mean if they were walking around with fangs dripping blood and- and you know, red eyes, they wouldn't be a series killer, because they wouldn't have gotten away with their first murder. It's that it's the very ability to wear that mask where people overlook you, which makes you successful as a serial murderer in the first place. So it's almost like a darwinistic process. If you don't have the proper facade,

you will be weeded out after your first murder. Well, the thing is like I say: I don't think that always that there is, you know, there's all kinds of people that are suspected of other murders and I think that's where it ends, and we know that you know in american law? There's some constraints to continually questioning somebody after they are convicted used. Will have to have reasonable amount of evidence, not just the assumption that this guy must have killed before I spoke interesting, lead, homicide. Detective, he said was one say it then. Certainly we entertain the thought, but it's another thing to prove it and the less he's going to confess where you get the information. You know, if there's nobody, then what do you do and we have to think that there There are certainly serial killers were more than capable of disposing of bodies. We talk, well, Jeffrey Dahmer, Gacy, There were certainly others that it weather we're, throwing them in rivers or bearing them successfully or burning him in the back.

There's a lot of people. That least attempted to dispose of their victims completely, so how many guys, like David Parker, Ray Probably I consider him to be the sickest cereals, better, that I'm aware of sugarless these are familiar with him. They still haven't found any bodies from him, but they just have video tape, evidence showing that he committed at least one murder and then evidence of testimony of his colleagues saying yeah. He said he killed about sixty people, but he was so good at hiding bodies

they still haven't, found any of them. It was really only the fact that one of his victims escape that the world even enough to know about him because he was into his 60s when this was happening. So the question either mask is what about the guys, like David Parker, Ray where the victim doesn't escape the serial killers? Who were that competent and we just never know they exist? We all be a bunch of missing people or people who are. That the missing missing has turned up spin, a coin lately, where there not even reported missing in the first place, yeah. Well, that's and I mean the serial killers are notorious for choosing the marginalized, in society was I put in my book as well. It's it's the it's not only the Street prostitutes. Again, little miss the least, but the sexual is traveling on buses, the homosexual prostitute. So it's it's the homeless

the alcoholics, that people that have been separated. Their families and and overworked and somewhat sceptical police. As well, so yeah a lot of people aren't even reported so where have they gone and what has been their fate certainly am, I: do you have in the chapter on the book on that about the high risk Wickham's, and I give examples of offenders that have targeted them. Yeah absolutely it's. I mean it's, it's good, that you've done. That is well with this, rather than just in another endless report of this victim that victim there has to be some discussion. There has to be something learned from this and I'm sure that you have come to some conclusions after all of this as well. What would you think is your most profound conclu asian. After doing all this, you know this disturbing research for this book. I think that my most profound conclusion,

is that we have to analyse these people on many more levels and we're actually doing a lot funds are analyze criminal, logically or psychologically, but I think that we also have to take a look at some, how they react and to the two, their society and how their influenced by the society around them. So I think that the data we need to look at them as sociological entities more to which canadian author Elliot Layton did I mean it's, it's very easy to describe someone as a medical construct. You know the So this part of their brain doesn't work or they are there are borderline personality or ' they are a visionary type, serial killer and and the tendency is to put them in these kind of boxes, because it helps sell textbooks. You

but at the end of the journey I realize that these boxes I mean though they are, they have some use. In reality, what we're looking at is we're just like any other sector of humankind, we're looking at people who are highly individual? they just happen to share the same hobby of killing people. But if you have uh people that all participate in gym mastics or making model airplanes, I mean they're going to share some things in common there is going to be over overlaps, but there's still going to be vastly different. So in order to understand a serial killer, you don't do it by taking a man putting him into one of several frameworks. I think you have to almost dissect them and look at his individual components and understand

his or her? You have to understand him as a as an individual and then once we get to doing that. Maybe we'll have some insight. Where boxes will a kind of appear to us, you know, rather than forcing them into organized or disorganized, or visionary missionary. Hedonist our control these kind of typology's yeah. Those descriptions are, like you say, have some value, but but dawn just rudimentary just very elementary. The person I spoke with for a year was more than we thing to talk to journalists and lots of journalists refused 'cause they didn't want to be. I think they just didn't want to be involved in the case, and it was very gruesome and this guy was like celebrity obsessed this character. But the thing is: is that this person now

still wants to talk, there's been no. He had fanfare for eight years in the media. He sometimes he would contact the media and they would print the story about this flu. Cheating. Disease and and Is it he still he's innocent, and this is before the trial, so he was used to getting that type of attention now if they sent Trey and people from the opp in the RCMP were trained by FBI, criminal, profilers and students of criminal, G then get a hands on on the worst offenders that they would be deal, and with and be studying, and I really think that the seer this crime is where Canada fails to recognize the patterns of the of the rapists and the people. That escalating their behavior, so the very violent are sometimes can. Did not so violent or in the Vince Lee case there predicting a one percent chance of reoffending. This is ridiculous. You know some kind of odds of yeah,

Do you determine that honestly? It sounds rather arbitrary to me there's! Really! elephant with one percent yeah I mean. Still alive I don't see how they arrive at that. It's like almost like, I said. Well, what's the lowest number we can, we can put you know. Obviously they must believe he's not a danger. They must believe it. I think that, as long as he is on the pills he probably isn't, but we all know that there are people who are mentally ill, that because of their mental illness at some point, stop taking the medication, but you got to admit of all the schizophrenics other people suffering for, schizophrenia and I'm certainly there's been some insane killers, but they're, very, very rare, even in Canada, where in San It is a easier thing like we saw that

I don't know his name is turcot the doctor that stabbed his kids to death. Well, it's a joke that that guys temporarily insane right. You know he was depressed, so he stabbed his kids to death I don't buy yeah and in american courts will buy it in most courts will not buy that stretching of the definition of Insanity- Vincent Lee, yes, definitely insane. There was another case, Winnipeg, where this was a cannibal, he he did not evade capture, so by definition his bizarre behavior. He didn't try to hide the fact, so that was the definition of insanity. But it's very rare for somebody to be designated as insane and then not culpable or not responsible for the murders, but we routinely, which is the scary part and we've spoken about it. Is it routinely will double murderers or again murdered reduced. Manslaughter. We don't know the details by the time it gets to the paper by the time it survives of why

Dear or the preliminary, what information is withheld from the judge? What information is withheld from the public about the true nature of these people, so I thought what's happening is that we we need to understand as much especially when the person is willing to talk. Clifford awesome was willing to talk, even though he's disgusting, human he was willing to talk. So you have to get first off those criminals, those series killers, those people, those rapists that are willing to talk and listen to them number one to learn. All I mean instead of listening to psych, Psychiatric evaluations from short interviews with people who may not be maybe disingenuous, so I think when you really have somebody wants to talk endlessly. We eat converse and try to learn something from this, the killers that can be some value. When we're looking.

The other people that may be getting into this kind of behavior and becoming potential serial killers. I would think yeah I point that I'd like to bring up too. I mean we've been doing a lot of passing of the canadian legal system and I do definitely agree with the Americans. Having consecutive sentence is, I think, that's a very smart way to go about it, but I do find that sometimes within the United States, they'll go too far to the other extreme, where you'll have a serial killer, like Vince Lee, who is psychotic and I'm thinking specifically of Richard Trenton chase the vampire of Sacramento,

yeah and here's the guy. He believed that, because his soap on his soapdish was GUI that it meant there were ufos turning his blood into dust, and so therefore he had to drink blood to replenish his supply. So that's exactly what you did this completely schizophrenic and he went out just in his own neighborhood Going into homes and killing people in Canada I wasn't even drinking their blood and he's given the death penalty and I think that's going to the other extreme. It's like you're, taking a guy who is clearly mentally ill and committing his crimes motivated by is a complete, unwilling misunderstanding of reality, and this is a person that should probably be confined to a psychiatric institute for the rest of their life. Yes, but to execute them too far in the other direction. For me, so I'd like to find that

the medium between the two. Well, I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't believe in making even one error or someone's dead, and they make too many errors, courts make errors. Here we have all these checks and balances and appeal: but you know what mistakes are made, and I think that if you, If you can spend the rest of your life in prison, I think that has to be enough punishment. You know a cage all by yourself has to be enough. Punishment. So I don't believe in that, so I do agree with you and they once they have even sometimes dna evidence. Or or a confession. That's that's been retracted. They still sometimes are very, very hesitant to let that person out. So it's almost the opposite of Canada. Where we're looking for app uses our latest serial killer in Winnipeg, they don't have much to talk about so they're talking about his harsh upbringing, already, I'm going well you know it is a different animal than America. I think the media

there and the people there have seen that rehabilitate and really doesn't work with these people and that's why they keep seeing endless vicious senseless random murder there and hope so we don't have to have an epidemic of that before we start chain changing things because, as you know, it is When you get emotional and not very logical and reasonable, then you start making laws that heard all kinds of people and gold, the other route so yeah. I think they has to be a happy medium, absolutely with insane. I think if if your definition in the in a lot of american states are. Is that you're you're insane but guilty so that they they really don't? I think that's it's just the vampire killer that you were talking about the chase I think that was the case that no matter what that's, what they didn't care

Well, there are lots of states where it doesn't matter if you're insane, they will clearly say yeah insane, but still doesn't matter so yeah, drag blood and that's evil, so you deserve to die and a lot of people were saying that about Vince Lee. I remember there being also, if there's one person you have to die. It's this guy, 'cause they're looking at well, he cut his head off and eight parts of his face. They're, looking at the specifics, the details of the crime and there not look at the motivation or what sparked it with that that really determined the court. Will you know the core of a person's character and in any case this many he deserved to die less than people who committed far less barbarous murderers? because he was extremely psychotic at the time that he did it. And, although I do agree with you, I don't support the death penalty either and

and not necessarily just because of the whole uh idea of executing an innocent person which is terrible. But I also think that it gives some of these people and escape there's lots of cereal there is I who have read about- and I get me in them off the top of my head- that comes up all the time. They are perfectly fine with with dying they'd, rather do that and spend their life and in a cage witches. What Bernardo has do ear? You know you basically locked in the closet for the rest of his life and to me that's you're, taking away their control and you're making at last over a period of time or as if you're executing them you're, bringing it to an end, for them, but you do hear that call in Canada as well, and I think it what it is it's just. It is an emotional response to

the barbarity of the crime itself, and so they is a knee jerk reaction in the death penalty is being you know, lots of states are dropping it so because people, it, takes maybe fifteen years or seventeen years to actually execute somebody, and then the kill process is so expensive that they really can't afford to do it. So there's there's a couple: a confluence of things. Going on two or three things going on, that are making the death penalty less less appealing. So, but yeah. I do agree, though, that and I think that the Americans have done a good job. The FBI were the first people with, like I said Robert. The wrestler and John Douglas They went in and interviewed thirty six of the worst serial killers and that's how they create criminal profiling. I think it's time to not Take a look at that criminal profiling and just let it sit. I think it's time expand upon the expound upon that because there are these unique care

doctor sticks and I think they can develop a bigger sort of description instead of such a narrow description of what a serial killer is and I think there's overlapping and again it's the labels. Don't do much, but I think the idea that this week we have to be able to learn something by speaking with these people, because it such an aberration. We can we can approach logic These people, it's there, not there, not like regular folks. It's not that we all have this potential in us to be like these people there's no way and you've done the research. These people are so far away from the regular Joe you and I that that's why it's fascinating. There is a logic just now:

our logic when you are able, when you're able to get into their heads and- and I have- I have been able to get there and suddenly you can see their point of view, but it means taking a lot of the part about yours. Well a lot of your ideas, I'm a lot of your morality and the things that repel you and you just remove them, and then you put yourself through that person's life situation and I have been able to get inside their heads, and I can see the logic of why they're doing what they're doing, even if it's still ultimately

find it morally reprehensible. It's that even the insane ones like Vince Lee, he saw the guy on the bus as a demon that had to be killed and he had to eat parts of them to stop him from regenerating. Now, that's completely ridiculous, if you're perceiving reality as it is, but if you're perceiving reality as he is, which he believes is reality then logically, it does make sense that he would do what you did well, that the elderly are really worried about. Is that I'm not sure that we have any expense? prince and the resigning any really good examples of taking somebody that was capable of what Vincent Lee was capable of doing in terms of going Far into his altered reality and and assuring the public, especially you know, especially the poor mother of the victim,

say: listen, you know we're absolutely confident from our experience. From the last time. We had eventually that this medication is absolutely foolproof. Nothing can happen. He could never get a resistance to it. He can't be playing us we're so clever. I just hate to see this back for an you know what I'd hate to see it work, because you What will happen when Vincent Lee is cured. There's going to be a lot of people not going into the insane asylum for very long, and we already have people that are claiming, or at least the psychiatric Institute, and is saying this person shouldn't be even in here this person doesn't belong here, there's nothing wrong with them. So that's what I just think that you look the battered women syndrome, which was which is first in the US and in a case I can agree with in Canada, where you say. Yes, the battered woman. She. Told her her her huh

indoor boyfriend, because of and then you, look in a short period of time at Karla Homolka is a battered woman. Never had you know so you can see my point anyway that Once the lawyers get it and twisted and twisted we, we can have an uh. Search state of reality again on what that law was intended to do what it really should apply to and then Karla Homolka's. You know. Somehow we rehabilitated, I guess yeah, definitely I guess there's always going to be some slip in the system, unfortunately, but we can always strive to make it better, absolutely well. You know with books like yourself, we can get an idea of what's gone on in history in terms of serial killers in the Canada, not really well known. For serial killers. But after this some really fascinating, unique and, as we said before, Canada really can compete sometimes so so your book is nn, cold, n killers, canadian cereal

murder and Lee Miller. So thank you very much Lee for a great interview and a great book, and I wish you all the best of luck with this and hope to talk to you again soon. Yeah thanks, it was like an interview and more like a conversation, and I consider that a success. Thank you very much. Thank you and now an where is this available? Obviously, it's Amazon, Barnes and noble chapters ensure Canada and you have a website that people can go, do as well uhm yeah, but you can't purchase my my book through it. I would just go to your. Amazon, Barnes and noble chapters. If you get in Canada, You'll probably find it on the bookshelves chapters and then to go and the states I'm not sure 'cause I haven't been to bookstores. Looking you may get lucky, but I'd say amazons are pretty safe, Patton absolutely now. Is it in e book form? as of yet or is that soon to come over. The real you back

It is in e book form great and do Here are you on Facebook and do are you into Justin followers on Facebook, so I always tell people look him up on Fischer, yeah follow. My look for killers has a facebook I'm actually working on right now, will follow up book called rampage, which is about mass murders, murders and spree killers in Canada and I've got a page so that coming soon so I'll be talking about that on the cold N killers page, so yeah Facebook, cold, n killers and anytime. There's there's an update involving crimes or SIRI killers in Canada. I usually do I post an update. May not,

well very goodly. Thank you very much for coming on the program and definitely get ahold of me when your next project rampage is getting close or when it's going to be released and will get you back on. I have another good interview and talk about that yeah can't wait. Ok, thank how much Lee have a good night. You too then bye. Thank you goodnight.

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