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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers, crime, history, room murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. Three time Emmy award, winning investigative reporter Mark Pettit returns to write the final chapter in his best selling and now newly updated book, a need to kill the death row drawings

dramatic and chilling new evidence comes to light. Exposing the sinister thoughts running through the mind of John Joubert, the man kind of brutal murders of two young boys in Nebraska. In this period of Truman Capote's in cold blood, pet, it delves into the Joubert K. Used to tell the dramatic story from all angles as a non fiction: novel in a c Series of exclusive face to face interviews with Petit Joubert admits to a string violent crimes and and other killing that sends investigators into a frenzy ending with jouberts being convicted for a thing murder, and ultimately executed in Nebraska's, electric chair now Petit over shocking new evidence from Jouberts prison records, proving the killer was fantasizing committing more violent crimes. Never before seen death row drawings made by Joubert, while he weigh it to be executed once again, send a chip, bill through Nebraska, and those touch by jouberts horrific crimes in the uh

stated version of his book pet. It opens his investigative files, to the public sharing, never before seen evidence pet. It reveals aspects jouberts personality from exclusive interviews and details from the dead, real discussions that have never been shared publicly profiler Keith Howard, who has. Who has investigated more than one thousand crimes weighs in with a dramatic assessment of the death row, drawings calling Joubert a sexual sadist to file an organized killer, Howard's full assessment of Joubert is included in the book pet. It is Twenty five year, veteran journalist, a former anchor at CNN Pet, it also worked as an anchor investigative reporter at Wxia Tv Nbc in Atlanta and Kmt tv three CBS in Omaha. The book that we're featuring this evening is an e to kill the death row drawings with my special gas.

Journalist and author Mark Pettit welcome to the pro gram- and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview- Mark Pettit, Hi Dan, and thank you so much for having me on your show on the big fan. Thank you very much mark. This is an incredible opportunity. Thank you for coming on. Let's talk just a little bit briefly anyway, because we have to as we mentioned in the introduction. This is the follow up to your best selling book. Tell us when the first edition came out before we get into this incredible story. And why just breathe really again why there was a need for new addition alright, then thank you very much. I've been covering this case for almost thirty years. I was a young journalist in Omaha NE and I had I'm from Atlanta GA suburbs of Atlanta and

you might remember years ago, a killer by the name of Wayne Williams. It's the missing and murdered children's case of Atlanta. Are you familiar with that? Yes, yes, so I grew up in during time and was in high school when those crimes happened, and I knew the fear that gripped the metro. Pilot in Atlanta area and when I went to war in omaha at Kmtv to cds. Associate John Joubert had just been arrested and I was just blown away ok by this fear that he had instilled in this community and he had just pleaded guilty to killing. The two boys and I became fascinated with the case and started writing letters to the killer in jail. I tried several times to go through his attorney to see if he would do an interview, and it was no no, no, and so finally, I decided to write to John Juba

directly and I use the self addressed envelope with the tv stations address, and I sent him a letter that you can read in the book and to my surprise, he wrote back and it was the beginning of a conversation that lasted over a year. I talked to Joubert seven times on death row and you'll see you'll see how it unfolded, but during these interviews on death row. I think you Joubert came to trust me and, and he been telling me how this all happened and he confessed to a string of crimes, including one slash three murder in Portland me. So when the book came out. The original version came out in nineteen. Eighty eight. And there only five to Copy that sold out in two weeks I was just blown away, and then the book went national as a paperback

and there was one thing that I had not reported in the earlier versions of the book, and that was that John Joubert toll during one of our last interviews that he was still fantasizing about killing more children and then- was drawing out his fantasies and I said John you're on death row, you're going to be executed and you're still fantasizing about killing kids and he said yeah. I don't know what's wrong with me, but they confiscated two of two of the drawings from me recently, and I said so. The prison has these drawings and he said Yes, and I said, would you let me get those drawings and have them analyzed by a mental health professional? So as you we in the book Dan there's an you've read the book, so you know he took the pad there's a yellow pad. I was taking notes on Joubert wrote a letter to the warden of the prisoner on that day and said. I would like you to give these drawings to mark Pettit

so that he could have them analyzed by a mental health professional, so the prison refuse and would not release the drawings they felt it would jeopardize his appeals. Finally, Joubert was executed in nineteen ninety six and it always bothered me that I knew about those drawings but had not seen them so with the 30th anniversary of the crimes coming up in two thousand and three teen. I re approached the prison through a freedom of information, ACT, request asking them if they had the drawings and they called me back two days later and said we found them and I was like you have drawings and there were you. Yes, we have them and I think can you describe them to me and they said there too disturbing- and I said These need to be made public and the prison system refused, and I thought about it and thought about it and the prosecutor in Nebraska Lee Polakoff said you should have those drawings you should you should sue mark you

sue the prison system to have them released and that's what I did and initially we won the court decision. You have the drawings released, and so we were days away from having the drawings made public. So I could have them analyzed. And then the then Nebraska attorney General decided to appeal and the case was taken by the Supreme Court of Nebraska and we ended up losing the court case, and so the drawings were not going to be made public, but then Dan As you know, sometimes fate has a way of intervening in a case like this, and I got a call late on a Saturday night and I answered, and he said, is this marked Listen, I said yes, it is the man that wrote the book about John Joubert and initially I thought it was a joke. One of my friends calling me- and I said yes, it is the one that's trying to get those drawings released and they won't. Let them out- and I said yes, he said I have the drawings and I'm going to

them to you, and it just gave me cold chills and it gives me cold chill bumps now hearing that. So as it turns out, a confidential source came forward. And made the drawings available to me and that's why it was necessary for me to write the sixth version and the final version of a need to kill the death row drawings as you do. You take us back to Laura it's Math Massachusetts in nineteen. Sixty nine and John Gilbert is six years old, his mother's name, Beverly, and so their staunch Catholics so tell us a little bit about Jack. His father and Beverly in the life that you described in the book when One is six years old. Surprisingly normal life. If he came from a divorced set of parents, the mother was very. Demanding and she would not let the children watch tv or violent, shows

And the father she considered a weakling and really didn't, want her son, seeing his father, but John Joubert went on to be an eagle scout, so this dick otomy of this young guy, who goes on to be an eagle scout, goes on to be A US airman what I didn't know is that there were some sinister thoughts. Brewing and John Joubert's head at six years old. He felt that the babysitter and her mother were trying to keep him away from seeing his father so he told me that he fantasized about killing the baby sitter and he described it as a a light switch that he could turn off the switch and she would be gone. So that's when it started east. But having fantasies about murder at six years old. It grew to cannibalism and it's-

during the hard to believe until you flash forward thirty years and we the assessment from Keith Howard, the criminal profiler, it starts to all make sense. So do you work crimes, progress, he stabs the girl. In the back. We a pencil he slashes the boys throat. He stay ABSA young woman on her way to college in the evening and then that progressed into to the murder of Ricky steps and the young boy in Portland me who was murdered so So what I've learned since then, is that for a person like John Joubert, who is now classified as a sexual status and organized offender and a pedophile, the fantasy is never as good. The crime itself, so they continue to commit violent crimes in hopes that it will become

fantasy that they have in their heads and according to the profiler Keith Howard, that never happens so they continue to commit violent crimes and murders in search of the perfect crime. If you will, that will never happen. So that's how it started Dan. It was You know, as you said, a young boy in Massachusetts who moved to Portland his mother was harsh, but there was no abuse that I know of that's the first question. I'm asked was he abused? There is no evidence that John Joubert was abused, sexually or otherwise. Now We talk about and again not to explain or because many people have traumatic events, but you do get so close to this subject that you, can trace some at least significant, maybe even again not throw the term around the triggering a fax or tricking a triggering events in John

Schubert's life. So you you talk about some of his early life. Like you said the babysitter, but there were other incidents that seem to contribute to this again, the anger and that's an understatement that we see later on in his Ma This behavior, that's true, specifically Dan. He enlisted in the air force, then was transferred to Omaha NE and Offit AIR Force Base, and that's where he really met his first really good friend and honestly, I think there may have been some sexual attraction to the roommate, and that's got out that they were too close if you will and that maybe they for homosexual in the air force

and the roommate asked to be transferred and this really affected. You were deeply because he he liked his roommate. He thought they were good friends and I think that was a triggering event, as you mentioned, that cost him to start hunting more victims and ultimately killing more victims, and during this time he was a scout leader in Nebraska and the and That's just so hard to believe that on the evening of one of the murders, he was there with the scout troop speaking them to them that night telling them not to be afraid of the killer. It's just unbelievable. And you also talk about to that. What you do write about in the book is that he befriends a young guy. This Don Shipman thinks this guys not only going to be an assistant voice, now he's going to take over this entire tire thing. He

reduces them to the mayor, and the mayor says. While you have it in the book very cryptic quote but again ironic. Can you tell us what the mayor said about him? basically we need young men like you in our community. You know welcome and uh, as you read in the book and as you have read Dan, he befriends one of the younger scout members and the little boy is so confused about what's happening in the community and at one point asked Joubert to tie him up with rope, He said I don't understand why these kids didn't fight back. Tie me up John, so this really triggered in Joubert, both of fear and a Knicks. Statement that he was like no, no, I don't want to do this and he ends up time bring up the little boy. And all the sheriff who searched for Joubert was a great man by the name of Pat Thomas Chito

only that he firmly believe that that young boy woo Had then, the next child killed, because Joubert could not control himself once he got into that situation, where the boy was bound and and fear, and we'll talk more about that in a minute Dan of what this was all about for you was it you listening for your from these kids in such a way that they knew they were going to be killed and he wanted them to watch him and that's what's so important about these drawings, the death row drawings. That will talk well, I'm sure, in depth. I was very interested in what some of the things meant in the drawings and I'll. Tell you more about that as we get into it. Let's talk about the murders themselves, The Everly boy on the wall boy and Stetson. So let's talk about the Everly boy,

and how he comes in to be in a position to be murdered and I really want to thank the families of Danny Joe Eberly and Christopher Walden for first the access that they gave me the trust that they placed in Maine today, all the stories of the young boys, I tried my best to treat them with dignity and respect and to tell their stories but Danny Joe Eberly was a young boy. All american. You know just a handsome smart kid who is a paperboy delivering the Omaha World Herald and but that was what he was going to do the morning that he was kidnapped and murdered. He was off to deliver newspapers. So his mother saw him off in the driveway, and this gives me chills as well, but Judy was saying goodbye. To her relatives who had been staying with him that night and

so she was saying goodbye to them is Danny Joe, was peddling off on his bicycle, and she said that there was an overwhelming feeling that came over her. That said, stop and don't let him go and in the book she tells me don't be silly. Judy don't be silly, That was the mothers intuition kicking in so Danny Joe is on his paper route and he's he's parked his bike against change and he's down on his knees, rolling up the newspapers when suddenly he's approached by John Joubert and he stands up and he starts to walk and that's when Joubert pulls the knife says come with me and I think Danny Joe was so shocked. He didn't know what to do, but there's also a theory that he had met Joubert before that. Joubert may have approached him weeks or days earlier, and so there might have been some comfort inn. That he knew John, would in some way and that's why he began to walk with him but Joubert.

You know, places his hand over his shoulder. Pulls the knife and says come with me and that's when he takes him to the car wraps his mouth. Duct tape ties him up and put him in the trunk of the car and drives in to the place where Danny Joe would be murdered and that's off a dirt road near Omaha, The Danny's family told me in a in the Father, Lynn, Eboli said I'll, never understand why Danny Joe didn't fight back. He said we used to wrestle. He was strong. I don't know why he didn't fight back in that's one thing: I've learned from investigators to your parents and you're talking to your children about these type things never go with the killer, always fight back screen, kick whatever it takes, because all law enforcement will tell you.

Second, you get in the car. You are that much closer to being killed. You are not going to get away with this they're taking you somewhere that you're not coming back from. So that's what happened to Danny Joe epperly kidnapped in Thai him up, took him to the remote area and stabbed in, and it's just so sad that both boys had begged Joubert, not to kill them to take them to the hospital, and I said, John, why didn't you just take a the hospital, and he said I knew it was too late and that's when he slashed Danny Joe's throat stabbed in repeat only- and this is really bizarre and shocking to he bit the boy's body on near his thighs And I asked the investigators in the profiler what that meant and

it was all about troll and sexual sadism and pedophile yeah that there's no evidence that the boys were sexually assaulted or raped. But there is evidence that, if you a child is five years younger than the perpetrator, it is considered pedophilia. So that's what happened to Danny Joe Eberly. You talk about in your book about horror that Judy and Leonard experience. Just realizing they're getting a phone call, he had a paper route, so they they were getting turn phone calls and angry phone calls with the paper had in common and finally, the supervisor. So the all the horrifying news unfolds gradually, but quickly. Uh you capture, all of

You also talked about the Sarpy County Sheriff response, Pat Thomas you in use the Omaha FBI. John Evans tell us about this little about again the response by the family and they find out because you do talk, about the entire experience, even identification at the morgue. Before we talk about this task force, that's assembled sure, so the families in panic. You you, you know Dan and there's a search for Danny Joe Everly cold front moves in it begins to snow and that's when they find Danny Joe Denny's Joes body, but it was so sad for the parents are getting phone calls and where's. My paper, Danny Joe, is late. Just like a child not to do his job, Those kind of things and then once they get to the morgue. When you hear the story, it's so heartbreaking.

How they have to go in and they're debating what kind of casket to get an Part of them wants to be frugal. They don't have a lot of money. The second part they want to pay homage, Asian treat Danny Joe with the respect he deserves. So you relive that it you, You experience that in the book and that's first hand from the family exactly what they told me down to the younger brother, bringing a pair of white tube socks uh that he that he took from Danny Joe's bedroom and said is buried anejo in these socks. They were his favorite So you really get to learn about these families. You get to understand what these little boys were like, but I also wanted you to understand what is going through the minds and of the law enforcement from Pat Thomas, if whoever could pick a sheriff from central casting it was him. It reminds me of Beaufort Pusher from

the movies walking tall. Just a big burly guy everything. You would think about in a share of and just what he was going through, and what Jim Sanderson, who was the young lieutenant on the task force, who the daughter of his own, and these these guys were trying to find this killer. It went on for one hundred and eighteen days over to the next murder happened and the profilers had been telling them you better catch him. You've got to get him within ninety two thousand one hundred days or he's going to kill again, so imagine the fear in the anxiety, the community and the law enforcement officers who know that time is ticking. That they've got to find this kid and the pressure they were under. I tried to tell that story, and I hope came through in the book of what these law enforcement officers were going through and ultimately the great work that they did to catch John.

It's amazing the different side stories in this in this very complex story what you do is you talk about this task force, that's assembled, but we also then talk about, as you meant in the pressure that these people are put on once they find that body and once people believe that there's this this killer in their midst, that anybody could be a victim too. So you also talk about bringing in Robert K, ressler the famous profiler and FBI pioneer of criminal profiling. Dals, look at these cases or at look at this case, because there is a similarity with an and uh infamous case the Johnny Gosch newspaper boy, because of some similarities to tell us about Robert K, Ressler and and this before we talk about it

task force and the conflict that they have at the task force. That at least doesn't send this case into onto a wild goose chase as as you right. So, let's talk about the effort by the FBI, why the FBI is involved. They don't really have to be so explain all of that to us well yeah you you nailed it. There was another case of another paper boy by the name of Johnny GOSH, the mobile in Iowa, but I also covered that case that they thought there could be crimes crossing state lines, and for that reason the FBI was sent in to assist Sarpy county and the Bellevue Police Department in pursuing the killer. The Bob wrestler and he's since passed was considered the godfather of criminal profiling, and I talk to Baba

multiple occasions about this, but he was sent to Omaha days within within a couple of days, I believe of the first murder and it's amazing what they can tell from the crime scene itself from the victim and how things have progressed Dan from when Bob Wrestler was on this case to what Keith, how who trained under Bob Wrestler, ironically, or how the science has progressed to today How much more they know from what a killer is doing, but Bob Wrestler was quickly able to say that this was going to be a young loner, most likely it blue collar, not very well educated

that he was not. This was a hurried crime and, as I've mentioned for these people, like John Joubert, who who are classified as an organized offender, they start out sloppy and the crimes get more sophisticated and they get less sloppy. So Bob Wrestler was able to come in quickly put together a Profe who they thought this killer was, and then they started literally rounding up potential suspects on a pervert squad, so they were pulling it all these people and who had previously been arrested or suspected of crimes and on a couple of occasions, almost charged the wrong person. In the case I once there was there

Hubbell found, and not one of the boys now, and I thought of what this is, what the the the autopsy revealed. So they went down this whole rabbit hole of trying to find this pebble and where it came from, and it turned out that the medical examiner has made a mistake and transposed copy from one place to another, and the couple was not found in one of the boys now so again. How frustrating that can be for the four had to be for the law enforcement who are going on the after investigating they're interviewing all these people. They get a guy that they think is the right guy. It's not. They get evidence that they think is real and it's not and you're back to square one. So thats saw what happened in Bab wrestler, you know, did his best, and I think if you read his assessment in a lot of ways, he would he was right and

that was literally a science to be able to come in and put together a criminal profile and talk about who the suspect was. We won't talk about all the suspects that became prime aspects web for eliminate it, but I think it's very very interesting to see that we could have had another another book with wrongful can fiction, pretty easy without this in interesting dynamic in this task force. So let's just talk briefly about this about him shortly after this, it seems like a big break because of all of this confluence of things that when police are looking at Alvin Terry, who is eighteen years old, exactly is the lasted a couple young boys so tell us how they think he's a good prime prospect and how they don't come to arrest him. For this so Alvin Terry is arrested, he has been suspected

from child molestation. He had been molested himself and harassed by other boys and adults and his I think he was shaking his story, wasn't adding up. They found a hair that they thought matched his body in came down Dan to a literally a vote that became very heated among senior members of the task force and Pat Thomas voted to get charging, and it was Jim Sanderson. The loo tenants who had a young daughter of his own at the time said this is not the right guy. This is not. Him were down the wrong yeah and they literally went around the room and voted and it is so close and the vote came up not to charge Alvin Terry, the suspect and, like you said, that but in a whole different book- and I know you've interviewed friend and fellow author John Ferric with,

Facebook bloody- how it could go so so wrong with the with evidence. That's not real or evidence that's planted, and you can imagine the pressure that's on, these law enforcement officers to find someone to in this case that things like that happen. So that did not happen in this case, but investigators were led. As I said, it was one hundred and eighteen days then we were led them on this killing spree and the second boy Krista the Walden, was killed in early December of nineteen, eighty three and again just a tragic. Storage. If you want me to go ahead and talk about what happened with Christopher I'd, be happy to do that. Let's talk about Christopher Walden, and but just before that you have again a horrifying true event. That happens, I want you describe for the audience in that right after the funeral

Albert Lee, Danny Joe Everly, the family, this back to the home and there's a phone call that the system, Maria answers or Lenny sister Maria answers, someone in the home answers. What is the content of that phone call, and this again is something you would never get unless you were able to gain the trust of the family and get inside and get their side of the story. So imagine you just buried you Child you all at home- and you know it's Custom- we have a have a meal together and to mourn together and the phone rings, and the caller on the other end of the line says, can damage to come out and play. So not only have they just gone through this horror of the murder and then the funeral, but for someone so callous to call and ask at the dead boy can come out of

I just I couldn't believe it and we're so thankful that the family told me that story, because that's hurt to hurt that you would never know unless they could tell it themselves. Yeah. Ok tell Alvin and the circumstances again remarkably that he gets himself in to be in a position to meet John Joubert, so Christopher Walden is a twelve year old boy. It was December second teen. Eighty three Christopher was getting ready for school and his mom sue. Alden was up and he wasn't properly addressed. He said, get your code on get your body in it it's snowing. You need to be dressed and Christopher was Coming into an age where he wanted to look good for the little

girls in the classroom and he didn't want to get his hair messed up, and so his mom said no. You got to put that fucking cap on, and so he did the grudgingly and he is walking to school and John Joubert. Their paths. Cross junior word is out that morning. Song and he is searching for another victim. This is December. Second, as I mentioned one thousand nine hundred and eighty three, and he sees Christopher Walden walking on the sidewalk in the snow. There's no around him, so Joubert pulls the car ahead and gets out with his knife and approaches. Christopher Walden

just like he does during your leveling pulled the knife and tells him to get in the car. Sir Christopher Waldron does, as he's told, and this time he's in the front seat, all the passenger side down on the floorboard and he's back in June over to let him go to to not hurt him, and you were told me that for so He thought about it. He thought about letting Christopher go and just letting him be on his way and he decided no. It was too late that he would show tell the police. He would be able to identify him, so he takes Christopher, old into another remote area, and Dan Dan. Imagine it's freezing cold. It's there's snow on the ground and he marches Christopher Walden into this snowy area. Make some take off his clothing, and this is significant. He

he made these boys strip down to their underwear. He did not make them take off their underwear, but it still considered pedophilia and sexual sadism. According to the profiler Keith Howard, so Danny Joe I mean Christopher Walden is in the woods and begging for his life and Joubert stabs him. And you know the little boys down and These stabbing him and slashing him, and it's so sad that when you see the photographs and I've seen the photographs of the crime scene, there's little backpack is notepad and in the pocket of Christopher Walden, the Medical,

examiner found zero dollars and ten cents and it was money that the boy was going to use to buy extra milk at school. So those are the kind of details that I wanted people to understand. Several reasons to understand the level of investigative work I had done too get beneath these cause and so part of what really happened, but also the humanize these children. So people would understand that this is just like your family is just like your child and something horrific could happen like this. So that's what happened with Christopher Walden and his body was found two days later by hunters who were out hunting And they found Christopher's body in the woods. You also talk about the again on gratifying or the job that nobody.

Wants sheriff. Thomas comes. Tell Sue Walden about finding the body and then about Steve that he couldn't go them. Tell us about this. It's terrific suwal one when she saw them pull up in the driveway. I think she knew that the worst was had happened. The sheriff Thomas here he has. This is now twice in one hundred and eighteen days that He had to tell a mother and father that their child had been murdered and it's awful. The reaction you will read in the book is terrible and the Father, Steve Walden is so upset that he can't even go to the to the more to look at his son, so the there is Pat Thomas he's now twice had to break this

News to family members- and he starts to take this very personally and he begins to try to talk to the killer from the media And there's a chilling interview that I was able to obtain, where Sheriff Thomas is talking to the media, to a reporter and instead of low. Directly into the camera. He looks to the left and says if you're out there turn yourself into either a clergy person or to me and start picking on someone your own size, so he was trying in this a police technique to get the killer to move away from children, possibly to an adult where he or she might make a mistake, and that's what happened. Joubert, I believe, was out looking for more victims the morning that he ran into Barbara Weaver at the at the preschool, where

ultimately it that ultimately, Thomas you know Thomas has felt the pain of these parents. He knows the pressure that his then on the task force of men and women are under and he's trying to connect with the killer directly. If you are a man pick on someone, your own size and Joubert was watching and he told me oh yeah I was watching. I wanted to see what the police were doing so again, then this is so interesting to be able to talk to the law enforcement. Talk to the parents And then talk to the killer 'cause, it's literally a three hundred and sixty degree view of what had happened during this time frame, and I wanted to mention people. Ask me all the time. How did you come up with the name of the book? I need to kill. Right, so I was interviewing Joubert and during one of our interviews on death row- and I said john- you didn't these boys. You had no idea who they were. How could you do this to them and he said Mark

for as long as I can tell you, I just had a need to kill and they there stood up on my arms in the back of my neck. I just couldn't believe he said that and so to me that was naturally the title of the book, and so that's how the book is progressed over the years This is the sixth edition, so it was a need to kill a need to kill final justice. I need to kill the doctor of drawings is: is the five. Version and it's only available at Amazon dot com, but I hope that you're listening who are interested will read this book so that they can not only get into the mind of this killer but understand what these families went through? What these law enforcement officers went through and what was a horrific time in the heartland.

When I talked about stories within stories, this is incredible side story here for lack of better term on my part, where this time John Joubert. In retrospect when people when this story makes it to the media, and people of course are paying attention again. The entire community is, is in fear, so you get to care usually come forward. Sheryl, Baumgardner and Rebecca Trapani Ann And in's incredible to me, because I've read quite a few of these books where hypnosis is used, but this is the most one of the most incredible parts of this incredible book. Is the effort, the incredible effort with bill any special agent, Dr Richard Garber, to hypnotize these women to gain. Valuable information, but we're going to use this as an opportunity to stop right now to talk about our sponsors before we get back to Mark Pettit talking about a need to kill

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hypnotize these two witnesses that in retrospect thought that they saw something that day tell us a little bit about this incredible effort. There were two women Dan, Rebecca Trapani, and Cheryl Baumgartner and both were actually eyewitnesses to the the kidnapping of Christopher called in the morning that it happened and both open were brought in to talk to local authorities. Of course, once they realize that he heard on the news. What had happened and both women were taken to San Antonio TX to be. Hypnotized and interviewed by a doctor and the FBI. So it's amazing, to see these women who are struggling to remember and to bring back

Any ideas or any evidence and how the hypnosis, I believe, really works in a couple of cases that the women were able to bring out certain a piece of a tag number holster where the knife was in on June, works, dealt to assign them. That was on the street corner. That would ultimately placed Hubert at the scene of the crime time through the hypnosis, so both women, I think, were traumatized a by not being able to remember and be by going through the process of being hypnotized, that they were traumatized afterwards, but it's a good thing that they both came forward because they both helped bring out pieces that ultimately helped law enforcement solve this twisted puzzle

What are the kinds of details that they did elicit from these women through hypnosis? That were, as you say, crucial in this, in this case, a partial tag, numbers um and the holster And the assign sign that was that it was in the. Corner up the road at the intersection that said that bike route, and so Cheryl Bottom Carter, could not remember what that sign was, and then she gets home from the hypnosis she drives by, and she sees the sign that said bike route and that's when she sat in her car and wept. Knowing that she was a crazy that she had actually remembered something that was very important that was brought out during the hypnosis, so partial tag, number partial description of Juba.

That he had a knife in a sheath so that there are those are all critical pieces of evidence that help police. Once they tracked, you put down a down those exact pieces of evidence from his car and up from his personal belongings. Tell us how the the russian of events that leads to have is ultimate rest, but also tell us about the barber weaver. Barbara Weaver was remarkable. Lady, and there are you know, I don't know if you're a spiritual person or on whether or not whether you know it really doesn't matter for your audiences but Barbara paper was a very spiritual person and she told me the morning that John Joubert was captured. She was having breakfast with her children

and she said each morning we prayed all for these children and that the police would capture the killer, and that morning she said that she said a special prayer and she said God, I don't know our how I can help, but if there is a way, please use me to help- and this will really was amazing as well. She showed me in her wallet a quote that she carried in her first and it was no enemy, can come so near that God isn't mirror. So that morning she had prayed with her children and Barbara was a school teacher at Aldersgate, Methodist Church. So Barbara is there with the children of that morning and she's aware of the crimes of course, as I said, they've been praying about it that morning, a young man pulls up in the driveway of the church.

And she sees him get out of the car and it's John Joubert and I asked John during one of the interviews. I said what was happening John and he said I was desperate for money. I was going to rob the lady at the church, but I really believe he was out looking for additional victims because there I've mentioned and as the profiler has said they this progressives progress is they will not stop killing until they have committed the perfect crime and that's never going to happen. So they continue to commit these crimes. So Joubert says he's out to get my and he goes to the door of the church and he knocks on the door and Barb We were is frightened and she thinks she recognizes him and he says: can I come in and use the phone and she lied to him and said there is no phone, I'm sorry you can't come in and that's when Joubert tried to force his way into the classroom and when

believer decided to fight back, so she pushed him and that you know it's icy and snow on the ground and Schubert loses his footing and stumbles he's frightened she's fry she's able to slam the door and he runs to the car and gets away and Barbara Weaver runs to the home of the faster and she's, able to give a full description of the suspect and identify the car that he was in, which turned out to be a rental car at the time, and she was so. She was able to describe the car in enough way that the police were able to track what cars were being rented at this time and they were able to track the car to John Joubert at off at AIR Force Base, so that's held John Joubert was stopped. It was Barbara Weaver and whether you're, religious or spiritual, or not, that very morning she had prayed for God to use her in

in a special way and that's what happened. But it's also Interesting Dan. After I'd interviewed Barbara Weaver. She she since moved to California and Joubert what was on death row? She was still living in fear and in the documentary I did on the case. She said I constantly live in fear that he will after me, someday and my children someday. So I think up until the point that Joubert was executed, the people who were involved in this case we're still haunted and still fearful. And I'm not sure that the death penalty makes that go away. It is a infinality, but these people were fear even years after the crimes that happened. Where is Barbara Weaver, who cracked the case and help police track down? John Joubert in his dorm room at Offit AIR Force Base. Now what I wanted to say is also that what people

listening to this program don't get to see- and it is dramatic- is the I would like looks of John Joubert at twenty years old when he's arrested, and you have him an excellent photo of him on the cover, so maybe for those that aren't see in your cover right. Yet maybe you can describe it what I'm talking about, and I think it is dramatic and. When you think there are two photos that strike me in the book? One is due Joubert in his eagle scout uniform, he looks innocent. He looks happy he's with two other Boys, and so obviously, he's had to do a lot of work to earn the badges and the right to be an eagle scout and again, that's part of the dichotomy here. How can someone who appears so wholesome and good so evil. And then you see this photo that's on the cover of the book, and this is actually the mug shot that was taken the day. That Joubert was

and in a way he looks innocent he's, handsome young guy and then you, both his eyes- and I want to tell you a story that retail in the book the first time I went down to end. John Joubert in Lincoln NE on death row. I get there and I'm walking by the guards and one of the guards destiny. Are you nervous, and I said on it I am, and he said, Mark it'll be fine. Once you get past his eyes. And I didn't understand what that meant until Joubert came into the room and. The way I describe it is shark eyes and if you ever, you know picture at the eyes of the shark they're, great and cold. Those are those were John. You would sign in. So you can see that in a couple of this book here is this honest. I mean

Handsome wholesome looking young man but look into his eyes and that's what what those guards were telling me and what I've observed. As you work when I was interviewing him on death row, and I told people it was in, is it weird in a way John, you were had a good personality. We would laugh at times about things. He once imitated. The church, lady from Saturday Night live that you'll read about in the book and then- and he asked me something very poignant. He said. Have you seen people magazine this week- I said no, I really haven't John. He said, Charlie Sheen is on the cover of people magazine and he says he'd weather be in a killing scene. Then

love making scene in a mark in a movie I'm in prison for thinking that way, so you were was very intelligent and at times it's it's hard for some people here had a had a. I wear it in a good sense of humor, but then, when I would press him, about the killings in specific details he would become rigid in those eyes would get darker and darker, and so that's why I chose the photo for the cover, Dan is because of the economy of a appears to be a young Holt, some young man, but once you get beneath the eyes, you see the evil. We've already alluded to, or more than alluded to that he gets a death sentence, but let's talk about what happens before that? What is it about the the evidence that they gather other than this eyewitness testimony

eyewitness id. What are some of the other things that they gather in terms at the Offit AIR Force Base, terms of evidence that they can use it this trial. So get into his room and he agrees to the search, and so they start going through his belongings and they find these detective magazines. And then I don't know I don't know if you've ever seen these, but you have seen a cover now in the book about these horrific crimes that are reenacted. In what I used to call detective magazines They found a number of those in Jouberts possession and he told me that he fantasized in master baited about those crimes that he was just

turned on by the fear, and now I understand that, once I have the profile from keep Howard of how these people operate, they operate on fear that leads to sexual excitement. That's why they're called a sexual, so they find this material and your words possession in his closet in his dorm room, and then they his car and when you see the photographs in the book, the car is a mess, there's trash everywhere cups paper and then they open the glove compartment and they hit the treasure trove. That's where they found the piece of rope which is a very unique piece of rope that I described in the book that they literally searched the world even to Scotland Yard, to figure out where this rope came from and they also found the

So you would have been so sloppy that he he left the knife and the rope in the car, and so there was clear evidence, but I think he was plotting another murder the morning he was caught, so it just all started to unravel. They found very the stuff in his dorm room. This down the stuff in his car and then they take him in for the interrogation and that's one of the most intense parts of the book. Where they get in in an interview him for hours and he finally cracks and admits that he had killed at least the first two boys. He did not confess to the third murder. Until I had interviewed him multiple times on death row in those crimes have gone unsolved, in Portland me, but he cracked and confessed during the interrogation now.

It's an interesting trial, but they try their best, but, like you say that there's over Wyoming evidence against him, and the audience knows enough about some death penalty cases that they have to have mitigating sir. Chances either way to negate death penalty or to enact the death penalty. What is his demeanor at trial? How does he respond? I think he knows it's over. They get to the point where, he just decides to plead guilty. The evidence is overwhelming and as far as mitigating circumstances, there were a few things his mother had written a letter on his behalf and the defense had argued that he had been taunted and bullied in school and those thing

had led him to become the person that he was, but I think the letters and the testimony of the parents The victims was just overwhelming and it's fascinating. What what happened in Nebraska is John Joubert was one of the last people executed in the state of Nebraska and the death penalty it was actually repealed, not long after there was one other execution, I believe after Jouberts and one thousand nine hundred and ninety six. So the death penalty was repealed and it became a really heated debate in the state of whether they should bring the death penalty back and, and that brings as we move into these drawings. That Joubert had told me about once. The confidential source had turned the drawings that

copies of the drawings over to me. I held them for a year. I did not want to get involved in the debate over the death penalty in Nebraska. I did not want to be accused of influencing the great either way, but once the people of Nebraska voted to reinstate the death penalty. That's when I decided to come forward and make drawings public that I had held for over a year and had analyzed so interesting that the death penalty that Joubert confessed. And was given the death penalty. That sort of rare. You think that you would cut a deal if you're going to confess to something you don't do it without sentence. That's agreed upon in advance, but he actually played guilty and will send it to die by the three judge panel. Yeah, it's incredible and you talk, mention about the debate itself. But I guess we'll I'll ask you to

Go further in this explanation, because you, then you you get Keith Howard on board to look at these death row drawings as well, but tell us how you get to speak to him before he's executed I think our audience would like to know a little bit more about, those last minute conversations so are interviewed on John Deere Bird seven times on death row and he was to be executed in nineteen ninety six. But what has happened after my book came out and he had confessed to the third murder. I was subpoenaed by police. And the district attorney's office in Portland me that came after my records and my files and Dan is the journalist. You know that the only thing that we as is our word to the people that we are talking with and to our sources

and so in a weird way. I had an allegiance to Joubert because he was telling me confidential information or information that I was the only person who knew and I'm not in the police department. I'm not a police, officer. So I didn't tell anyone until the book came out, that Joubert had confessed to the string of violent crimes and the third murder so you can imagine when the book came out and he has confessed to the third murder, this all explodes, so the police come after me. They come up to the records and I ended up having to testify against Hubert at the murder trial in Portland. So it was very difficult. He was very upset with me and that was actually the last time. I saw him and got to speak two hamburgers or 2's attorney. We were leaving the courtroom after he had been convicted, and this is a really powerful part of the book, but I walk over to his day,

since it early, and I said you know I'd really like to talk to John again and he said Mark you can talk to John Joubert after the state of Nebraska. Execute, and he slammed the trunk of his car got in the car and drove off and even up until the day that you were was executed. I tried to get messages to him. I went back to Nebraska and did commentary for Kay and tv at this time of is in Atlanta working for the NBC affiliate here in Atlanta. But the station asked me to come back and do commentary. So I tried to get a message to John Joubert. I tried to meet with then one more time and I think Dan he was so upset because I have testified against Portland that a he didn't want to speak to me or the prison didn't get the message

just through to him that I wanted to talk to him, but we never spoke after what happened in Portland. Right now tell us about the trial in in Portland and. More about your your battle with the authorities to because the authorities don't appreciate that you didn't come forward with this information. As you say, you had You had a ten see C2 keep your source and not go to the authorities. So tell us a little bit more about what happen that trial and how much of that evidence is used to convict him. It was very intense, so the Police put a lot of pressure on me to to turn over the information that I had and I said, does as a journalist. That's all we have is our

our word in our bond and confidentiality is an important part of news gathering. So I refused to turn over my documents, my real nice, my files and so forth, and I got very heated that they threatened that I could be arrested. For contempt of court and such so. We ended up cutting a deal, my attorney, Alt Dirks, who I'm so thankful for basically took the song for free here I am a young journalist in Nebraska, investigating this on my own- and this is interesting- thirty years later. That really, I fought this battle by myself to get these drawings released and I'll tell you more about that in a minute, but there was a quote that was in chapter ten of the book. If you looked to chapter ten, I asked John Point blank. John

did you kill Wiki stepson in Portland, and he reached over and turned off my tape recorder. I've been recording the interviews- and you know by this time than we had. We had formed a relationship and sort of a bond where I think he trusted me and he said Mark. I can't lie to you. I can't say that I didn't do it, but the last time I played guilty to anything. I got the death penalty and so that's when I knew that he had killed Ricky Stetson, and that was, the agreement that we reached with prosecutors in Portland me that I would come to court, and I would only testify to one thing, and that was that one quote from chapter ten of the books, and I would not give up my

any other information, and that was all it took. It lasted, you know a day and he was convicted just within hours. So it was one quote: damn that close the case in Portland and you know probably turn Joubert against me, that's when he decided he would never Speak to me again, what are the details of the Ricky Stetson murder and how much different are the than the other ones. As you talked about elation as time and sophistication yeah very, very, very similar to the others. Rickie Steph soon had decided to go for a run away. I think, it's called back bay, there's a cove up in Portland and his family in this time in history they were like sure you know, so they let him go where his parents

they would probably much stricter and not want their child to be alone like this, so Ricky specimens out running around this cold and he's got a a sweat suit on she. You know, sweat, pants and a a USA switch and your bird is on a bicycle, and all this has been building you know, he's he's, stabbed the girl in the back. You slash the boy's throat, you stabbing the teacher in the chest. So if the escalating and it's never as good as the as the fantasy, as I told you and that's when it really, the tipping point came he. He came up beside Ricky steps and there was no one around. He pulled a knife on the young boy and again this is You know evidence that later would make a lot of sense. He made the boy pull his pants. Down to his underwear and stabbed him slash his throat and also been

the boy. So this is where it all the pieces all come together is he had bitten, Ricky Stetsons body, and he had right and the boy Danny Joe Eberly for sure in Nebraska If you remember, he talked about cannibalism in biting his babysitter after he killed her. So this is where the pieces all really came together and the police in Portland almost charged the wrong person there as well. So there was a massive manhunt. They interviewed a lot of people similar to the pervert squad, as they call in Nebraska almost charged the wrong person. Joubert joins the air force, he escapes Portland, and so the police have no idea that it's him, but in the books you read that police will canvassing the streets and actually stop Joubert

in Portland and the police officer said what are you doing and he said I'm on my way home and the police officer said something to the effect be careful. There's a killer on the loose so they came back close to catching him in Portland and didn't, and so Joubert escapes to Nebraska starts a new life, but then when the situation happened with his roommate that I'd mentioned earlier, it triggered his violent, behavior to kick back in and that's where it all started in Nebraska, but. Now you talk about Keith Howard and you bring him him in to assess those drawings. But before that, I, don't think we talked about the incredible efforts for people against you to get these drawings to be published

to for you to see them and for anybody else to see them, so can you further explain why there was this fight for this information to come out? an invalid tell us why it was important for prosecutors and for yourself what was the importance of these drawings Dan? For me, this was the stone. Left unturned, in this case it bothered me trim obviously that I had known about these drawings and there are questions about the death penalty. There were all these questions and I always felt that John Joubert was on death row and he was drawing more killings. Something was clearly wrong and he had told me on multiple occasions, I'm going to get out of prison, I'm going to get out, and so what I found out after further research,

Yes, the Jon Stewart had been meeting with the FBI and Bob Wrestler in fact had come back to the basket and that would you booked at least two to three times and you were was cooperating with authorities. She was talking to them about the mind of the killer. He had even offered to go to crime scenes to help authorities. You know solve other murders, so it started to make sense. To me is that Joubert is cooperating with the authorities and he thinks he's going to cut a deal, and so it hit me. Then there's this debate over the the death penalty in Nebraska. I know about these drawings. Does that mean that you would have certainly killed yeah if he had gotten out of prison. So, as I said, with the 30th anniversary of the crimes coming up, I decided to go back and try to get the drawings one more time and when,

the prison officials found the drawings in the prison files. I was like guys this is it we have now for thirty years of scientific improvement. Let me get these analyzed by a criminal profiler. Let's find out what it meant and it it baffled me that the police and the and the prison system what factors here's a killer who has been executed, there's new evidence Let's get it started, but, as my attorney Bob Krieger in Nebraska, who I want to thanks for all his hard work said, this was not about the truth. It was about the bureaucracy. These were you know. Government employees who wanted to protect their jobs and keeping this information. Confidential was a way of doing it. So, as I said Dan, we one of the district court level. They were supposed to turn the drawings over to me within sixty days.

The attorney general appealed and that's when the Nebraska Supreme Court decided to take it from the lower court and decide the case. So as this was happening and I'm waiting to go to trial, that's when I got the call from the confidential informants. It happens in Watergate. It's happened throughout history. It's always someone with the courage. Who has an excuse me the knowledge that comes forward and makes this information available and I've written in the book. How this all happen, how I was at home on that Saturday night when the Call me- and it's it's just instinct I was like: do you have a scanner at your home, where you can send me the pictures and he

I don't know anything about technology. Let me put my wife on the phone, so he puts his wife on the phone and I said Ma'Am do you got the drawing she describe them to me, and I said I knew that. Then it was good drawings. I ask her: did she have a scanner? She said? No, and I said, do you have a camera phone and she said yes I said, take photos of these images and I gave her a private email to a way to get the images to me. So she says she can do it so Dan. Imagine it's five minutes, I'm sitting by myself. I grab my pad and I start writing my emotions. What I'm feeling at this view moment. Could this be at thirty years later, I'm going to get my hands on these drawings, and that's when I heard the ding that

the dating of when you got a new message or a new text, and there it was the message with two images attached. I clicked on the first image and it was the guy just as they've been described to me standing over the young boy. The boy has tape around his mouth he's tide up and the man is stabbing him in the stomach. I click on the sex image, and I call it the floating boy and it was almost more disturbing than the first. It's a boy. That's nude. His hands are tide behind him and his mouth beginning as tape around his mouth. So that's when I knew that I had to draw that this was what I've been fighting for for all these years and the person he said this is. This is wrong. You should have And as it turned out, he was a member of the the guard unit that had shaken down Joubert cell. And that's when they found the drawings and all those years ago he found

so disturbing that he made copies and put him in a box in his closet and had forgotten about them. So all this controversy had- and- and they saw on the news that I was fighting to get these drawings made public and the wife said you have those drawings, that's what he's been fighting for and they went to the closet and found them So I flew to Nebraska prior, and this is again it's you can't make this up. I am going out for the Supreme Court hearing and I go meet the couple who has to draw they invite me to their home. I go then we have a wonderful conversation, they bring the drawings out in the box out and we talk all the way through. And they give me the drawings at that point and Then I had the drawings in my briefcase as the Supreme Court was hearing the case of

whether they should be released again. This is a movie, so I'm sitting court listening to the arguments and I'm saying it doesn't matter. The case is solved. I have the drawings and then you know we had to wait the decision and the Supreme Court ruled against us in the state tournament So here I was in this dilemma. I had the drawings, but the Supreme Court had ruled against me and there was this fierce debate over the death penalty in Nebraska, so I just held on. I was like I'm not going to do this. And that's when, through law enforcement sources. I was introduced to the gentleman Keith Howard, who has you said, and, as I say in the book, had been trained by Bob Wrestler. What are the chances right? Bob wrestler had trained him at the FBI Academy I get under. Just to keep an eye said Keith. Would you be willing to analyze these drawings for me and he said absolutely so. I

provided him the drawings I gave them copies of my book. I gave him photos from the crime scene. I made things available to him the only I had seen and then he comes back to me in like two weeks with this fully detailed assessment of what this was about, and I just knew at that point. I couldn't keep this private. I couldn't keep this from the public that the public has a right to know and that's when we decided after the super, the people of Nebraska voted to to reinstate the death penalty, that I would make the drawings and the assessment from Keith Howard Public and that's what we did on December ninth of last year. New book, which is called a need to kill the death row, drawings. It's interesting too, at first you just see The image of John Joubert on the cover the mug shot, as you say, but also you superimposed, those two

Irie drawings right on the front as well. So just add eeriness of the book. And, and- and I know that flying in the book as Well- yeah yeah and I I did that for a reason. I wanted to show the innocence of the space and the evil of this man and one picture, and that's when I worked the designer of the book cover to suddenly place those drawings into that image. And then to put the drawings into the book and- and I need to somehow Do a web page or a documentary on the drawings themselves, so that people can really see the detail and the assessment of key talent. So that's what I'm thinking about Excuse either doing a documentary about the drawings or a Docu series. Like making of a murderer, so that people can really understood In the mind of a killer through

Technology and through the science that's now available to us that wasn't available at the time these crimes happened. It's like DNA, damn today, cleared so many people who were wrongly wrongfully, accused and convicted. Many who will rightly accused. This is a modern day. Dna and John Schubert was was giving us a roadmap. He you know, thought he was going to get out of prison, but these drawings, proving Keith Howard, has confirmed that that would have been a very, very bad thing. If you had been released from prison, Keith Allen says there is absolutely no doubt the he would have killed again. We won't go into the whole assessment, but what was the most surprising thing or the most disturbing thing, shocking thing that you got from that assessment? The most shocking thing was why the boys in the drawings were not blind.

Folded, as I said there bound with rope, and there is tape around their mouths, and I ask Keith Howard, I said Keith. Is this symbolic? Isn't this meaningful he said mark that is the critical clue in this whole piece a sexual status. Then I didn't really understand what that was. A sexual sadist is a person who gets sexually arouse Minton from instilling fear in another person. So what you're, seeing in these drawings is that the boys don't have a blindfold is because Joubert wanted them to see what was about to happen to them to elicit as much

clear as possible and for those boys and then his fantasies to watch him murder them. So he didn't want them the screen. He didn't want them to speak, but he wanted them to see what was about to happen to him. So then, I would think that that to me is the most disturbing thing that has come out of this. Is that your work was of a sexual and what they call an organized offender who starts out sloppy and things become of you know they work to perfect their crimes. So, if you'll see in the drawing there some very unique detail, Down for the belt that Joubert is wearing down through the glasses and the mustache of the man who stabbing the young boy, very serious detail and that's Becaus according to Keith Howard, he has

played this over in his mind over and over? It's like a movie, so he knows the detail. Both the most important thing for him is for the victim to be as frightened as possible, because that is the sexual gratification that Joubert got from these crimes and so to me that was the most diabolical part of this case. It's it's sad and it's you know I almost feel guilt. He just said I had formed sort of a relationship with Joubert, knowing now what I know of what he did to these kids and

It was all a mind game and he was- and I think it was a mind game for him with me at some point- that I knew as much about this case as anyone but him, and he would ask me, have you thought about this? Did you check into this and so being able to get these drawings has helped me get a fonality to prove that sheriff. Pat Thomas was right when he told me twenty six years ago, he's a cold blooded killer likes to kill little kids. If he gets out of prison, he'll kill little kids again and uhm. You know, Pat Thomas was right and Through these drawings, I was able to prove he was right. The you said. This is you've been involved with this for thirty years. With this, with these days,

things and when the release of this book, we always been expression, catharsis cathartic, put little bit of closure for you with this story, at least yes, as I say I I talked about this the book I couldn't let it go Knowing about those drawings, I just said something: it isn't as a reporter. You can't leave facts dangling and in this era of so called thank news that bugs me when I hear that is that in this case I worked for years. I've spent thousands of thousands of my own dollars trying to get these days lines- and it was ironic- you know Warren Buffett's, richest man in the world and he, once the Omaha World Herald, But- didn't join in the fight to get these drawings released. It was

it was me by myself, and so when the Supreme Court ruled against this. I thought that was over and then for this confidential source, who had the courage to come forward. And make these drawings available to me. It was just all the stars have aligned that this was justice, that what I have worked so hard for had been proven, and I finally got to see, these drawings and get them analyzed and I think that's a public service and I'm proud of it, and I'm thankful for the sources who came forward and I'm appreciative of Keith Howard, who took all this time to really help understand and what these drawings mean and what they mean in the in the whole scheme of Joubert's existence. Yes, you know, and the thing is that we didn't get into too much. We don't have the time, but it's very it's incredible. So the prison visit you have with John

super tan, you say the difference and some of the surprising things that you said he was so lackluster and so a dau Answer in terms of his energy is one thing that you sort of stress in this, but again, for the reader. It's going to explore this. It's just incredible. All the. The little store. Is within the stories and this incredible visit you have with him in for and so. To me, that's what it's all about is is when you're an investigative reporter, and you get this sort of access to be able to tell the story from all angles, to dispel what you might think like, I thought he was going to be overbearing person killer and I walk entities this day. Empty, frumpy guy right who had gained a lot of weight in prison. He what he didn't look like he looked when he was arrested,

but again how meek he he seemed and a couple of times I thought: well, the guards are not even paying attention. I could kill him in here what, if the parents had this uh community, and that's one thing also is very telling that I talk about in the book that I asked Joubert during our last interview. John, have you ever thought about, You know we're here in this room by ourselves, and he said, oh no, never kill you mark. I know you, I could now kill anyone I know so that tells you a lot about this person is that it was about anonymous victims that he didn't know that could satisfy his deepest sexual needs and the evil deeds that he committed. Yeah, well, I want to thank you mark for coming on in talking about a need to kill the death row, drawings

for those that might want to take a look at the trailer and and the other versions of these editions of these book deal website and how could they might contact you if they are so inclined sure if you are on Facebook, I would encourage you to go to Facebook. We have a site for a need to kill. Just put that in the search bar I need to kill and the site will come up. You'll get exclusive access and I do encourage people to watch the trailer that we produced you'll get a better look at the drawing. It was hard to reproduce them in the book due to the limitations of printing these days. People backs especially but go to our facebook page and watch the videos interact with us, because it's an ongoing discussion where we release you know Additional information have a dialogue and I look forward to. People reading the book dan- and I thank you so much

all for having me on your program into profiling, these type cases while want to thank you very much mark for coming on and talking about this incredible case and this new uh mission of again an incredible book, no, the classic. I need to kill. So thank you much mark for coming on in talking about a need to kill. Thank you have a great night you're, very welcome. Thank you. Goodnight.

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