Now most of you are familiar with Jeffrey dumb. We covered him in multiple episodes. What a twisted individual mind of a monster, from ideas out with a fourth season about Jeffrey, dumb on mind of a monster? Doktor Michel war takes us through the sword, starting with damas childhood in the first murder all the way through his death, the podcast features jawdropping. Never before heard audio recordings from the detectives, journalists and others close to the case to explore exactly what happened and how this killer came to be. So this sounds like a very deep dark and for me anytime, you git never before heard ADI from people very close to the case listen to mind of amongst on apple podcast, spotify or wherever you get your pockets.

Hello, everyone and welcome depths of three twenty eight of the true crime. All the time podcast on my ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner in true grime, might gibson give me. How are you a man I'm doing good? How about yourself I'm doing excellent hair ooh excellente yeah, you like that yeah! That's good mix it up a little bit. It's exactly!

hey, let's go ahead and give our patriot shout outs. We had Yang and Zandra to gas a england's andrew cass in the ok. What's going on gas, Angie killin hey, there is Angie your mom's phone. Well, that's a good phone! Now Karen watkins was going on watkins deb thornley ate up John mccarthy, the mistake that John, Laura Nicole well shave or mission lean krueger, will appreciate that Michelin Alyssa alvin alarm aguilar median corona. Eighty million ashley oldfield was going on actually caroline, be careless. Laurel rickard appreciate that laurel chris finally, they christina elisa mc brightening will allow make broughton. Ok if you want to go that trash derek jim mill loose key chip, Jimmy sky tomasky, yeah, yeah, Mandy, stocker, Mary Ellen.

we're, not least Erika Van avert jumped out at our highest love. Thank you. So much van over again, thanks to everyone, and if we go back into while this week we selected just plain age s so preaching dad very much. We had and pay pal donation from an kelly appreciate that Anne S, thanks to everyone tat gives. We have an absolute out on unsolved right now in its about the nineteen eighty five disappearance the brown family from port saint lucy ford is really shocked the the community, because I believe that this family missing course. We find out later that allegedly may be the dad's involved, so were head down those roads and tackle that information in we'll see where we come out at yeah. I mean it is unsolved, but the dad has said some things over the years and people you know have their suspicions. Well, let's leave it at that all right,

are you re to get into this episode of true crime? All this? I am ready. We're talking a real piece of work, name, william mansfield junior billy mansfield murdered five women and girls and multiple states in bed. Reed most of his victims at his family's home. You know we're going to get into all those details but this is also a story about Billy's father. William mansfield senior, who was a tear more guy in its own right, and in this is one of those cases where the further again the research, the more invested I got more can of twists and urns. I found an endless found. It extremely interesting, so hope everybody else does as well. Billy Mansfield junior was born in nineteen. Fifty six in grand rapids michigan to william senior and virginia mansfield. He was the

this dollar six boys and one girl. The couple had now. I will say there were various reports from different how lads did seem to contradict each other. Some sad. You know he was the oldest of five, said the oldest of six, but the more I dug in dog. It seems as though they had seven children. Now six boys ass a lot so handful that is more than a starting vivier, that's a starting I have an a six man on your own basketball team. About me. Having two brothers was a lot. You know I can't imagine. Having all that additional me. Can you imagine the grocery bills if there had been three more just like you know, I don't know how your parents would have afforded. No, it would have been either. It literally would have been that old expression eating you out of house and hope tat. We had. We had two refrigerators one inside

one in the garage than we had a free standing freezer and the rights to, and there was always had to be filled with stop because we ate three big growing boy, but also in some of these reports, said that william Senior made his boys fight each other almost like for sport bud. Sport is kind of weird. I mean I'm surprised that he had even do You know grown up. We just bought each other randomly anyway Well, that's what I was thinking. I mean boys fight that that's kind of a thing: girls fight too, but not probably, is often resulting in straight fisticuffs. Yeah me boys fight and they get into it. Oh, we went to the hospital many times to get stitches in our head and face and other parts

parts not to be named, but what I took from it was that this was maybe a little bit more of us sadistic tight fat content that movie the accountant, oh yeah, which I thought was really good movie, but you he was making them fight it. often the mob. I don't even know if he was doing that. I was thinking, maybe a little more like perverse pleasure of seeing them hurt each other. I dont know right because it is, there really was no details around it, but the santa cruz sentinel reported that bill told probation officers that his family are bringing in their middle class. Family was good, william, field senior own day, refrigeration, business so mean it sounds like they did ok with money, but I'm conflicted about. Billy juniors upbringing was, it really is good as he made it out to be, or did he simply just not want to tell his probation?

officer what really went on inside the house when you John, because you as we're gonna, find out his, other was a terrible. May prided want to share that information with too many people. The Tampa tribune reported that at the age of forty, billy was accused of sexually molesting a fourteen year old girl who was walking home from school, now It was said that he only received a stern warning for this, because the girls parents wooden, let her testify not- and I get that yours apparent You'D- have to make them. decision. Do you want your fourteen year old to have to say things in a courtroom that would be at the very least, very, very uncomfortable, and I think back then it was probably harder to feel comfortable all defying, absolutely other. They feel more comfortable, testifying today I just mean

yet more support. Today, I think than you would have bad had back that women are believed more today. Absolutely maybe, if we're going back to the seventies, you- and I have done so many cases where it was absolutely obvious that sexual assaults and re and crop in a violent sexual crimes against women. Just weren't taken seriously a lot of victims, warm believed in so at a certain point. I think a lot of victims didn't come forward because if they didn't feel as though they were going to be, if they didn't feel as though anything was going to be done. Why come forward at all right my? Why go through all that here I mean I'm assuming a lot of that happened, it's horrible. It is. That same year. Billy was also charged with petty larceny. He dropped out of school in the tenth grade and at the age of fifteen, join the army

about the same time that you did. I know you went straight, into like us special forces type outfit you were so advance, I mean, I hadda borrow friends birth certificate to give him but and obviously he'd had to do something similar. They dont, let you fifteen, so I think he altered his birth certificate, probably not that hard. Do back in what nineteen seventy no, but I have my four moustache, so I can look daughter you do you have that they want this came out with boom form. I stand here. Billy would later saying daddy while in the army that he became an alcohol, but he was only in there for about forty months Annie received a less than honourable discharge. I think we talked about this before we have the difference between dishonourable less than honourable, and I think

He was even written into me and now for you as those at thought. Somebody I think that the difference I now I already forget. There has been a lot of speculate They may be absolutely true that they figured out that he wasn't old enough to be in there and they kicked him out. I don't know that for sure, but it it sounds logical now. What I I do think is a fact is that he came out of the now alcohol and was an alcoholic. You know for the rest of his life. The Tampa tribute reported that billy at the age of seventy meredith sixteen year old girl named fill us and the pair had two children together and you have differing accounts of this one, last night, somehow lads reported it as spiel maker, some nelson backing the majority had spiel maker, so we'll go with that

but it never ceases to amaze me. You know, as we research cases and we're going back through what are very reputable newspapers or outlets, that they have differing information, doesn't line up. Sometimes no ages names went up to the full. chattering days. Maybe they just one is good at it back then, and now by that billy was eighteen years old. He had a man, the pretty long record now most of it was juvenile, of course, never seem to really be held accountable for any other. And may we talked about the sexually molesting a fourteen year old girl, when he was for in its time too, so I dont know what would have happened to him. You maybe Some juvenile facility he's not going to big boy prison at the age of fourteen detention centre, something like that but

isn't this something that we have seen time and time again where people are doing what you will said, a really bad thing and you in his case a stern warning. That's what he guy, which is to him what not and even if he did go somewhere, it wouldn't be for long. So you you'd have to call those things slap on the risks and that's what we often see now. Some of that comes when you're, a juvenile there's just limitations on on what they can really duty, but there were a lot of sexual assaults for which he was never charged but thought to have been canoe did to some in which he match the description of the assailant they just they never know either put together the evidence or figured out. It was him, but there is a lot in the reporting about the time

gives both leaving. It was home based on descriptions in his record in the imo and all in all there in nineteen seven for the mansfield clan move to weeki wachee florida floor where you ve heard of the event never her, and when there is a kid there well so I looked it up because I wasn't familiar with it, apparently was founded in nineteen sixty six to promote a local mermaid attraction, some type of week watch ii park. Is, which is probably what you went there. I want, therefore, that those did the dat with the mermaids and then we drove over to bush gardens and did it you know the scamper skiing thing that they do and you go to the beer garden. And while I was a you know, ten years old, but what would

With that full mustache, I assumed you would have had no problem getting yourself or a budweiser. Ok, I did wasn't going to mention it, but here yeah. I've been there to them or the mermaids traction wiki watching you. Hi. I hope I'm saying it correctly. So then I looked into will be more and found out that the city was dissolved in two thousand and twenty and basically is now unincorporated. It said at one point like the two thousand and twenty census, or something was like twelve people that lived there really yeah. Apparently it's very small anywhere in nineteen. Seventy six twenty one year old billy was charged with being drunken disorderly. He was real stand back, but according to the Tampa bay times ass. He was leaving the jail. He was arrested, in charge with raping a sixteen year old girl, now he eventually pleaded to a lesser charge and in didn't do much time when I found

fascinating, is that his father, william mansfield senior, had walked out of that same jail in nineteen. Forty six after a jury failed to believe a thirteen year old rural, who said he tried to sexually assault her so thirty years difference but still same result say results from the same memo right. Well anyway, that's one of the three There really grabbed me about this case. You ve got senior in junior both you're doing some of the same thing so again, as we ve talked about many times, how much did junior take from senior how much of scene whose actions caused what june or would later do something we have to keep an eye on. Sometimes you know, kids are observant and they learn yet know that there is no doubt about that in nineteen. Seventy eight at the age of twenty two

billy raped a sixteen year old girl in a house. He was renting in grand rapids. Now it was really hard to tell from the reporting what what times Billy was in michigan and when was in floored wreck as they were from grand rapids Michigan the family move to weak. He watched by now he's too some years old now, he's living back in michigan, running parliament, or whenever a house it does seem as though he traveled back and forth during this period, probably to see his family, I'm assuming, For this he was sent to the michigan state prison, but he was these than nineteen eighty february of nineteen eighty. So what too, here's less than two years and spell out eimer. Now he didn't, spend time in prison because he became jailhouse inform so parent he was the star witness against

the man who confessed to him in jail that he had murdered a school crossing guard was reported that, in addition to getting out on the rape charge, early to other charges that could have meant life sentences were reduced. Significantly, and these were also violent sexual crime, offenses wow. So you kind of pays to be an informant yeah. Sometimes it really can now it doesn't pay furred the later victims of billy man will junior we're gonna talk about that, but there is definitely a reason why people in prison try to give information exchange for you know, reductions of their sins or dropping of charges I'm not doing it out of bed the kindness of their em they're hard right there for trade gathered, doing it to get something out of it. Now they could be telling the truth they could not be. We seen it

in both ways. Billy's why Phyllis divorced him in nineteen, seventy nine, so he gonna do in february of nineteen eighty and in june of that year, he rate the young woman named PAMELA Cheryl. She fought back again, billy and was able to survive her attack an press charges. police would later say that they went to his behold multiple times to arrest him, but they couldn't find they later found out that he used a trap door inside the mobile home who allude them as well as a police skin to know that they were coming so ensuring you know he's sitting there he's got the police scanner he hears at once they get their boom trap door. I screwed out the back like that. Trapdoor theory not for this case. Yeah

it's just in general good to have a trap door, never know yeah. I get that. I don't like the fact that criminals are getting away, but what I want to talk about is the time when he gets out in february of eighty on a two year, maybe not even two year sentence for re, any commits the same act within you know what four months their habitual. Yeah. I mean this is a serial offender in august of this year, four year old billy travelled to california with it, common law, wife, Maureen his twenty three year old, other gary his wife in her three children more, with letter later, tell papers that they were trying to make a fresh start. I dont know what she, meant by that I dont know if she knew something things that why she probably knew

but he had done in the past. I don't know if she knew what he has just done a couple of months prior Saddled settled in a k away, campground in a small town called watson, do remember those kao a camera. I mean, I think they still have arms. I dunno they went up the road not too far from here. did it broke while so I remember when we would go on vacation down south, just traveling yo down. I. Seventy five It seemed like I remember seeing all these billboards. It said K away camera, but we weren't really campers, so we never had like an v or anything where you would set up in a k away campground. But I always thought me: will check that out and see what that is. What will they dream campaign so the brother both god jobs, which was something that I don't think really liked to do by that. I mean work

the latin reporting about how at least Billy never could hold a job. He would we or get fired after just a couple of days. I don't think you want to work seemed ass, though maybe he got to the point. Where he had to have some money, so he'd take a job and work a little bit. that they would pay him in figure out a way to either get fired her. Her quick hate box, it's two thousand twin three. Why are we still dealing with molly riding trash and constant trips to the garbage, especially when there is an easy solution? Is called mill? Here's outworks mill sent my kitchen been to me. I am boxed it set it up with an app. It looks great in the kitchen, and every day after every meal we step on the lever. The top opens up and we put our foot scraps and membership starts with the milk kitchen. This thing grinds dry, shrinks and distinct. Your kitchen scraps overnight turning them into food grounds, which are still food com,

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ok, yeah! I never your trouble. You could tell you look at me like ok, purses their trouble. I gotcha see. I never know how much of this is, but really seeing nad ahead of time or later being interviewed after they know that this guy's killed X, number of people, you're saying I you know it- he had evil eyes, he was yeah, so I never know, but a lot of people said it wasn't just like one person so I think there really was something about this guy's eyes also in august, Nineteen eight warrior mansfield senior was indeed I did on forty sacks related charges, many which involved children while it's a lie and social, very sick There are. Obviously it is any time you're talking about children and in sexual,

the charge is it's gonna, be nasty, but think about these two guys, father and son. We know the sign is a serial killer. We haven't detailed it yet, but we know that we say it up fried, and then we find out the dad was a really really bad guy as well. The Tampa bay times reported that mansfield sr pleaded no contest to four of the forty charges, which in who did fondling children in having sex with his young girl friend in front of children. Less disturbing, yeah, it really is there. There were. Various reports has stated that he used his young girl friend to help procure at least one of the children whom he is I did, and I read somewhere where you're one of his victims was it young is nine months old and that's enough to just make you sick, fuck, you're saying nine years old of her nose, which

bad news, then nine months, nine months, all caning comprehend, but can comprehend any of it but nine months, just some of the evidence against him included pictures. He took up his girlfriend engaged in sexual acts with young girls, and I never did see the age of this girl friend outlets just use the word young, so I'm thinking she was definitely under age is well and, let's not forget, he's married, so he's gotta a girlfriend on the side who apparently is very, very young bright and then he is engaging in all these criminal acts with young children as well, so he pleaded guilty and was since the thirty years in prison, but we see got that yeah. You know

I could not make the argument that it should have been a lot longer and I think most people listening would say you that many charges and counts of of doing bad things were children. Thirty years probably isn't enough, but we ve seen where it's been a lot less a whole lot. So thirty years in nineteen. Eighty, I'm not too arms about it. Just because I know during that time period some of the senses were were light in december of nineteen. Eighty Billy murdered twenty nine year old, renee sailing the Tampa bay tribunal. That remains body found on the morning of december seventh, nineteen eighty, in a shallow water filled, ditch near the entrance to the santa cruz dump The body was sponsored by a woman heading two, the dump in her pickup.

Rene was lying on her left side. Her blouse was pulled up above her brass and her pants were pushed down to her feet. One tan boot was missing, her blouse was torn and it was reported that three small pieces were found in a turn out about three hundred yards down the road, the two but your beauty wrote that a black court was nodded so tightly around her neck that in some places it disappeared into the flesh wow those a visual for you yeah me. I think that really paints a disturbing picture of not just only was she strangled, but with such force. Then it would cause no this cord to disappear into her flesh. There was also evidence that renee had been raped. Her body was bruised and scraped up leader

investigators to theorize that she had been dragged, maybe like along pave manner or concrete, or something like that is horrific. Man was this is the first murder we're talking and I'll just say right now we're not covered the murders in order for a very specific reason, but this one is pretty Nasty, but also want to look at the time is right: let's go back to being release from prison in February. Just a few months later he commits a rape. Then he moves to California, and before the end of the year he's killed a woman yeah. As far as we can tell everything is just ramping up. It is what we're going to find out those that were, at the end, fully investigators pretty quickly zeroed in on Billy mansfield junior witnesses. came forward pudding.

Billy and renee together about twelve hours earlier. We fit the medical examiners. Time of death peoples them sitting in Billy's car in the parking lot of the wooden nickel to bar, and the ditch where her body was found was about four miles from bar in two miles from the chaos a camera, and it was said to have been pretty much on a direct path if you driving from the bar to the camera direct, so not looking for building right now, you got. It all seems as though he might have been the last one scene with renee her body is found essentially on the way back to his place of residence to day after renee body was found, billy and his brother Gary took off to know that apparently want to build

Coworkers had told him that the police were looking for him. They had him in their sights. Now it's pretty natural right, please to want to go interview, people, friends, relatives some of those would be coworker yet be then but in this scenario they can tipp tip their hand a little bit. I think, because one of those coworker said: hey buddy, you know the police. Are there asking about you, and he obviously knows he just committed murder re. So he gets the heck out a dodge very get out of here before they come knocking on my door, they even interviewed Maureen, who told them that She had left Billy in november because she was afraid of him. The Tampa tribune reporting that she told investigators that Billy continually beat her and even threatened to kill her. If she left him, she said he twice brought strangers to the trailer enforced

sure to have sex with them and one time he brought a teenage girl to the campsite in full Maureen to watch. While he had sex with this young girl. Shaking her head, like you have no idea what to say does dumbfounded in others what this guy's doing? I just so you know for me, there's like two different components. One is you it's hard to understand how someone can victimize women Children. All of that now this other component is for me. How is it that you think your partner is going to be okay with some of this stuff? Probably because he didn't care, he didn't care and he put fear into her and just thought that the fear would be enough that I can pretty much do ever I wind, she's, not in a tele one and or leak, I'm going to tell her what she's going to do

I'm gonna tell her what I'm gonna do now, obviously, she deadly she found the courage to leave. then and then later to talk to investigate. So. I mentioned it. The brothers fled to nevada, but they knew who they were and there in a he be out for the car they were driving, they were spotted by a police sir, in when america that you ve been to win a mockery of minute when america but sounds fund to say it is funded, say it was fun when you said it. If we're saying array we don't know that we're saying a right, but it's fun to say. However, we say- and I think that further back in time. We go you these types of captures I think, or even more amazing rice nineteen eighty technique, ecology being what it was back then really means that this patrol officer was was really on. It saw a p b had it

if am whatever was number, did try to do so. He pulled them over the brother tried to lie about who they were, but they were arrested. I think because they match the description and then eventually they confirm to they were an act. a little while they were shipped back to california. billy was indicted for the murder of renee sailing and his brother Gary was died it as an accessory to murder in speaking of newspapers. Getting things right There was one newspaper article that said they were both indicted for murder, ok and then, and later on in a subsequent issue. They had to print retraction in say no sir. we must stop. He Gary wasn't indicted for murder. He was indicted as an accessory. Ok to murder,

But when I found very interesting was that the papers referred to them as the bank broth, as they wore brown paper bags over their heads when they were ranked so this wasn't like the unknown. Comic, Do you remember the unknown comic back in the laboratories disclosure? That was I I don't know I don't know, but I remember the unknown comic. Some some of the papers talked about how it wasn't like really their choice, the worthies didn't one potential. Jurors or were witnesses or whoever to test see their faces and me, We get clouded or have something it messed up. I so let's set big william, is in prison and his son and billy and gary are awaiting trial, not great for the family. At all, then, in march of nineteen eighty one something

really big happened and the tape of eight times put together a really good chronology of the events around this Please gotta tipp the bodies were buried out at the mansfield plays in weak. He watches and I dont know if this was given by the tipster or not. but there was a lie in the research about police thinking that they were going to find six body, because this dig took and so there was they were reporting on it like every day and- and I remember quote from you're one of the investigator saying that they were expecting define six bodies so and if that didn't come from the tipster, I don't know where they they would have gone now. I did region one article that tipster specifically referred to a missing woman named sandra jean gram, So authorities went out on march seventeen and they d

everyday sculled, the woman has never been identified even to this day. and is only listed in reports as a white woman in her twenty. As far as I could go with it, so obviously they could get some characteristics or they think they know some characteristics, but that's not much to go on right right. A white female intertwinings, then, just three days later, on march twenty if they announced that billy mansfield junior was the primes aspect in the dust appearance of twenty one year old sandra jean gram. Who had gone missing a year earlier, so you had started this tipster was really trying to figure What happened to sandra or knew what happened sandra and was leading police there on march twenty fifth, a second skeleton was found at the home, so you have to picture it right there.

Have this massive digging operation His whole man, wiki watch e number, keep saying it because it's just funding, but in all of the descriptions of this how's it sounds like it was a junk yard. I'm sure you ve seen people's houses like this, that god for five cars parked in the front yard, some of them missing various things that would cause them to be functional. And furniture, yad toilet in the yard. for whatever reason we know the reason, not for using as they just have to get rid of it, I'm hoping I'm not every neighbourhood has one of these, but I'm sure people listening have either known a house or seen a house like this, where people just don't give a rip, it seems they just puts up in the yard and they don't care.

Because most outlets called it a junk yard stuff strewn all about, but they got. You know, earth movers and they this big dig site, and it was said in a bunch of different reports that during the whole thing, the mother Virginia stayed in the home. And she would come out and complain to the press about the dig, She said it was messing up their utilities, but that can happen. It really can you know when they dig through all that digging they can cut the power line. They can cut the telephone line, the was sure they could do all kinds of things, and you would probably be p one at that if you were just a regular homeowner, but when you're talking about it in the context of skeletons being unearthed on your property

it kind of puts it in a different light. I think she's stuck on the wrong thing here. Yeah. I think it'd be a little bit more worried about why skeletons are buried in my yard and how you know myself my family, Someone's gonna have to explain what's goin on here. Two days later, the second skeleton found was identified through dental records, as fifteen year old, a ziegler, Elaine, was from war and ohio, but had disappeared on December. Thirty. First, nineteen, seventy five or january: first nineteen, seventy six, depending on what source you look at, she disappeared from a k away camper where she was camping with her family

an floored now who do we know that seems to lie k away camper, where we know billy does yeah absolutely. On April. Third authorities found a third skilled and they said it appeared to be of a much older woman than the others. Just four days later they found a fourth skelton and it was very quickly identified, as that of twenty one year old sandra jean grand Sandra was last seen in nineteen. Eighty at a place called pans, liquor, lounge, and it came out that this bar was just ashore distance from the bamboo trailer haven, where Billy lived at the top goliath place, name, bamboo, trailer haven,

sounds very ritzy it to me. Yeah, I'm assuming it was not worth to the public or at the bt age back then maybe yeah it might have but you're. Hopefully, people can see how I chose to tell this worry a little bit out of order more in the order of how police discovered, thanks because Obviously we already know that billy mansfield junior was killing as far back as nineteen. Seventy five so in total they dug for four weeks at the mansfield property and honours the total of forest, elton's. Like I said earlier, they thought there would be more. It was said that every day the digging drew hundreds of onlooker and I can just imagine the house next door being ropedown as a crime scene, and they ve got these. You know,

machines in digging right, I feel, like my whole neighborhood would be standing out front, o wondering what in the hell is going on. What are they pulling out of the dirt doubt it would be in we be recording right next door, given the people, the scoop, but I'm thinking like of the people working you do the escort, excavating or excavating or excavating yeah what they must have felt going through this process. You know and finding these bones in care. We don't want to talk about those individual. A lot we talk about just people walking in finding a body, but these are people going into it, knowing that there looking right or bodies, but still when you actually unearthed some there's gotta, be a strange, come a cobb feeling. I would think so. There will go along with it, so you go home,

that ny you're lying in bed. That's gonna be a pretty tough image. I would think to get out of your head if you can now. My thought is. This would have been a pretty sad thing, so obviously for the families of the two victims who, identified, because they now know that their loved ones are dead, but then also further a lot of other families of missing loved ones. They know that two of the the skeletons were not their relatives, but what about the other two you know as a family member below because you want to know you found you're lost, love yeah. I don't know how that go, because in I'm thinking you do, but you don't write, you don't want your your loved ones to be dead, but you do want to know

What happened to them if they are dead, you want to find their body, you want bring them home, bury them. All of that. I can see how it could be very tough, conflicting emotions. now newspaper speculated that the two jane doe score, been a lot of different people who had gone missing here during the time frame, and you think about you and I do a lot of missing case. We do there are a lot of people that go missing. All for the world. So of your time about? Let's say an area around this location implored go back three four five years before, how many Women, girls have gone missing the numbers probably fairly large. This is not that far from Tampa pretty big city right, it's going to be hard to get that list down to just a few yeah because they're Jane does it happen.

Able to identify them. Billy went on trial in california in july of nineteen, eighty one june, Where's worn allowed to hear anything about the bodies on earth in florida on august tenth after four, days of deliberation, a mistrial was declared by the judge. So apparently they were deadlocked. had a vote of ninety three guilty, so nine people voted guilty three voted not guilty in. They were budget. I'd, be unanimous. So what are you gonna? Do nothing? Mr the state told news outlets that there would be a second trial. Now this is built right, Gary's trial was yet to come later that year and he made the decision that he would testify against his brother.

In exchange for immunity. I s big news. It is, would you testify against your brother in exchange for mood which one as it make a different, thereby lisbon it ain't gonna? Thank you. Thank you know, but to gary is not when I go on trial for murder, but accessory to murder is still a very big deal. It is a package deal now. He he's gonna go to prison if found guilty. how long I don't know but longer than anybody wants to go to prison, which is zero days and win. This opportunity comes up. He jumps on so they dropped accessory to murder charge on him in exchange for his testimony, hey their ticket fans. I want to talk to you about

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U s. Patents have earned thermidor reputation as the leader in induction technology to explore the entire groundbreaking induction innovation collection, including all new wifi induction ranges coming this summer visit, thermidor dot com, slash wondering that's, thermidor, dot com, slash wondering in october, Billy somehow escape from this a cruise jail, but he was recaptured in less than twelve hours landscaping going on back Here we have another, she might go easy for people to just escaped from jail. Now I did read conflicting stuff. Please I there was one story where he had help from another in may and woman, saw them they're wearing these bright orange correctional institution you jump sea air everybody can picture, though. And in this story she said that she thought they were joggers gesture

down. The road is jogging down the road in these. These worn, germ outfits very fashionable sure, jogging off it, but they found them both pretty quickly in january of nineteen. Eighty two, her nando county florida. Grand jury indicted, billy mansfield on four counts of first remoter, related to the fore bodies on earth so near. This is the other thing that really jumped out of me about this case. You have the murder, renee salem right, committed in california and then they on earth all these bodies in florida and its it kind of all playing out in the street time timeline, you know he's waiting to go to trial before he goes to trial. They learn about all this. They can't presented to the jury because it really doesn't have anything to do. I guess with the california murder,

But then, after this indictment, he still waiting go to trial, and you have florida just kind of what sitting waiting in the wings waiting to see what happens in California, because they're going to want a piece of him too yeah. They want their time. It's not a bad seat to have at the table, though the california do what they gotta do like you said, they're gonna hear how they plan on defending this, and then they can think about what we need to do when we finally get our hands on while the good news is, they know he's not going anywhere in the near turn right, I'm out walking around. He can't flee. Let's hear ages to escape again so yeah, I think they're in a pretty good position. he was also charge with the attempted sexual battery of a woman named PAMELA cheryl in february of that year, Billy's, second murder trial began since nineteen eighty two it took a while there were some delays, obviously

a mistrial, so we're almost two years on the job. wasn't allowed to hear about the bodies in florida or the charges against billy related to those bodies either. Just like the first her, but in about two weeks the trout wrapped up and the jury convicted, Billy, mansfield, junior of the first degree, murder, renee sale, and I found it interesting that gary was never even called to testify so he was given immunity and didn't even have to testify. Now, I'm sure his brother knew yeah what he had done, but I didn't find Any you know information around it. Maybe the state thought that he wouldn't be good for their case. Obviously, they must have thought that they will all used on also, it was reported that the jury did later learned about the bodies in floored. You think, after that, you'd feel even better about your decision.

Yeah I mean, I think, as a juror. If you were even the slightest bit on the fence about it right and you went guilty because you felt as though he was more likely than not guilty is the pretty cemented in your mind after you find out there Ok, the on earth all these bodies. It is families, house and he's been charged with these. I were. I do remember the last time I served on it, Jury wasn't a murder case, but it was a pretty interesting case and afterwards the prosecutor came in to talk to us, and gave us a whole bunch of information on the defendant. if he wasn't allowed to say during trial kind of like this, but he could say it like that yet because the trial was over done, he's like oh by the way did it help you feel better about what did, are you pretty certain anyway, but he did kind of just tack on like all

guy had done a whole bunch of bad days that they couldn't introduce I guess I didn't. I guess if it didn't go the way the prosecutor's not going to come in and say anything, so you don't know what I'm saying yeah probably not yeah, you may you messed up here, as I did this business, but I thought that was injured I never knew that that happened or that was allowed to have brought him here. That's that's good day. They do because the least you can go home as a german in film that about your decision asleep. You know you bill asleep. on April six nineteen. Eighty two billy mansfield junior, were sent to twenty five years time life for the murder of renee sailing and sent off to prison.

He served time in a number of different california prisons, including folsom, when your favorite, absolutely the timid, eight times your forded, that after his sentencing billy's x Y Phyllis, gave a sworn statement and her nando county circuit court. She said that one of billy's brothers, to bury a body in the back yard. She also said that billy is bisexual and brought men home. gay bars. So he could have sex with them in front of her in billy discussed a murder with her, while as big time to give it affidavit like that. It's just like your tone, a friend way different right now, you're putting yourself on record your opening yourself up for what legal repercussions, if you're not telling the truth, Ruth you you're, giving a sworn statement and were learning more about Billy

yeah. Obviously, of what she is saying is true and again as a sworn statement. We are learning something's k he's vice actual doesn't really mean much in the in the grand scheme of things but he's bringing men, home and having sex with them in front of her. So We remember this and of what Maureen told investigate now she do said strangers she didn't specify. I don't think whether they were or female, but it's kind of a very similar forcing her to have sex with strangers, while he watches forcing her to watch him have sex with someone at sea. Like something that he must have really been end for both the women in his life, to claim that he did to them

I guess at the very least it probably leans towards being truthful, more truthful because you kind of add a little bit of corroboration from another person, so Billy had been convicted of one murder, but florida wanted a crack it right. We talked about that. We didn't and now he's going to be facing the death penalty. was printed in a number of papers that his lawyer said that billy was not planning to plea bark which has kept us shocking. You think they would try their both that's what Florida wanted him to do because I read that they had run the numbers and it was reported that there asked the man was that it would cost about three quarters of a million dollars to try him, but they thought that Kabila. Some people said he could past as much as two million doubt wow. That's a lot of money,

She's the whole thing cost. If he pleads guilty, I don't know, but it sure as hell is not so thirty thousand dollars, is definitely not two million dollars you gonna save a boat out of money and you're gonna get pretty much the same outcome or the desired out Ultimately, billy did end up pleading guilty to four council first to remember, and one count of attempted sexual battery and folsom prison. He was given life sentences for each of the four murders and five years for the other count. Okay, so I get it. They wanted the death penalty to entice him to plead guilty. They took the death penalty off the table. He got four life sentences and you look at that on the surface and you think, oh, that that's great that's what he deserves.

It seems like it's. Okay, I get it for life sentences. That's good he's! Never going to get right. He'll spend the rest of his life in jail. The problem I had with it was that they were sent to run concurrent, not just the four life sentences in florida. They were also set to run concurrent to his california. Murder set right. So what he get twenty five thirty year, twenty five years to life. I think it was a year now he's got for life sends is, but he could come up for parole and and so. If they're all running concurrently, I hate yeah. I do too. I think a lot of people hated it. I think a lot of people had a problem with it at the time because it was said it was printed in papers, He could potentially be out in as little as twenty five years now you think about twenty five years, that's a very long time putting out for what this guy

it's a long time? If you were found with baggy of weed nineteen eighty four in some people- guy, you know crazy, syn, is three strikes or whatever why'd you can look back on and say off what were we do right, sending people away for for twenty five but this is a man who, admittedly killed at least five people in a whole slew of other sacks related crimes, this dude walking out on the street in twenty five years. I don't want him walking down the street ever no, oh, I I really don't either, but now I I think people were right to think. Okay this might not have been the best course of action. Now we know most people like this right with a record like this guy has. It is not going to get out in twenty five years. I can't imagine them getting out now: you're not going to go up in front of a parole board and they're going to say. Well, you killed five people,

but I know you've been a good person we're going to go ahead and release yeah we're going to release you right on your first parole date is not going to happen, but just the mere fact that it could. I think that you know that drives people up a wall that bay times, did an article on the fifth anniversary of the crimes in it. They talked about now only billy, but his mother and fathers well, william mansfield senior, was said to have been an exemplary inmate. Was graded as outstanding in in all areas. So sounds like you know, pretty much all of your reviews that you ever gotten at your job, how stand exactly william senior told the paper that he felt remorse for his action. Saying you'd have to be a complete, not if you didn't, but he added that he didn't think about the children he admitted victimizing saying I taken leave all of that outside? How do you do so? On the one hand, you feel guilty about it:

but, on the other hand, you never think about. So, are you really truly feeling guilty about it? Are you saying that, because you know that the pro boards gonna, this in the paper and it's gonna make you look for some trick behind that. My thought is, if you really think, guilty about doing. Something is heinous. Is this man did? It would be next to impossible to completely black it? Wouldn't it. I would think so. I'm not saying you'd have to think about it every second of every day, but it would have to cross your mind if you truly fell this level of guilt. That you're saying you do you have your really were remorseful full, absolutely is gonna come Iraq. I don't think you can just be like yeah, I'm really remorseful, I'm never, but I'm never going to think about it again. We're starting now, it's out of my mind, never going to think about it I you wake up every morning in prison, Joe.

Look it, then you feel bad about which rule. If, if you truly remorseful, that's the key idea right, truly truly verses. What people say? It's kinda like what. he always analyzed in this article. We stated that virginia mansfield visited her husband, William every sunday. Except for sundays in the five years since he was impressed. this wasn't down the street. This was a two hundred and eighteen mild drop that she had to make. Every single week she wrote weekly to her son billy, and she told the paper that she didn't believe that her husband was she also said she didn't believe what her son Gary had said against Billy she say she believed Billy was guilty of the killings are ready their places where she didn't believe he was. But in this paper she said that, but she said he didn't know what he was doing. So really talked a lot about alcohol

is. I think she even called him so cardiac were you said he had some mental health issues and in one of the articles in ideal read somewhere, where marine said that you apparently had been to the viewer hospital a couple of times like in the late seventies, for you know his alcoholism. They had given him some type of medication, it makes you sick when you drink and she said when he was taking that he was okay really, but when he stopped taking it, he was a completely different person back to his old, not not just the fact that he would start drinking, but then he would become violent and and and this and that, but to me I think what kept it off this in this article was that Virginia still lived in the house where

The bodies were duggar, so she lived there while they were in the ground. She was living there while they excavated them, and then she continued to lead their knowing what would happen there now. You can make the argument that who wants to buy that house, I couldn't get rid of it, maybe possibly be difficult thing to get rid of it. And you're gonna take a bath even if somebody's willing to two buy. They also reported, billy was moved to San Quentin just eleven days after Charles manson got there well that was interesting. The times wrote that he was in a maximum security. Ward law in a cell forefeet, six inches wide ten feet inches long in seven feet, seven inches. Yo you round at five by love a man fired by eleven, so snob big love is not big m m, picturing, the metal, bad debts bolted in

the wall right. You got your total silver toilet, a toilet, neither corner yeah. That's about the show that I was watching where they headed the the cat. the jail. That was just really really high and they had figured out a system of how to talk through the toilets, queen floor drop, an dropping notes and substances, It was like flush once and that's like. Let's start talking flush twice, I'm done in the call I dunno. It was something like that. I just thought it was interesting when you think about it. It's it's all drainpipes right, yeah and they're stacked on top of each other for yeah, but you're talking you have to get down in there if you're talking into the place where you do your best to skip all the water out. I dunno that's not for me man, but that is a that is a pretty small space, but I don't feel bad for you

billy mains bill, I'm thinking by does he was allowed access to the exercise yard every two days and alive de shower every three days, always under guard so yeah you can go out walk around, but were there's gonna be so my you and you can take a shower, but there's gonna be somebody with you, I don't even know why need to shower every three days if you buy yourself now, I guess just the same cruel and unusual punishment. Yeah. It's probably good clean, have have the prisoner clean themselves, are renowned, then It is in fact- and I am so it said breakfast was its- having lunch at eleven thirty dinner between in three and four, the early dinner man. I mean your imprison, you take what you get em. You saying, Thirdly, what you ve just eat lunch at eleven thirty. I guess it is pretty early, but

my assumption is, they want to get all and they have to stagger, maybe some of it, but they want to get all that down and out of the way they don't really care. The church hungry you're not hungry It said that he got clean sheets weakly and clean blankets month, and I know this irks alot of people, yes, you're in prison. You dont have freedom but you're getting a lot of things that people here in this country can't don't even have regular meals, three meals a day and we're all pain for I don't I don't know what you did. The solution is to it because we don't want these but walk in the street. So you and you gotta give food, but I know that rubs some people the wrong way that they have acts ass to what a lot of people here, don't don't have that

Tampa bay times reported that on July twentieth, two thousand and twenty two one of the two Jane doe's was identified as sixteen year old teresa, caroline filling up theresa was just a week away from her seventeenth birthday. When She went missing her sister Margaret jobs reported her missing to tamper police on may sixteenth nineteen. Eighty, the identified asian was made with the help of para Bonn nanoscience and I think you and I have talked about pair Bonn national before more often, I have talked about them a lot if they ve done a lot of stuff in identifying new, unidentified, people, especially over the last few years there helped out with the june with the genetic genealogy rout, they ve got. This thing called us.

nap shot. Did they created that that's really help the the police, but I want to look back through the time again, so mansfield got out of print and in february of ninety eight- and we know now that he made his way to flora by at least may to abduct kill. Teresa in june, we know he raped PAMELA, Cheryl and then later that year went to California because he murdered in december, so at the very least we have for victims in florida, one in california. one victim is still yet unidentified. As far as I could tell gives, I can't help but think there are more victims. This monster billy Mansfield june, I can imagine that there is not more victims,

seem, like he traveled quite a bed, sure tarred to believe that, with his track record, he wouldn't have more victims in the states that we know of michigan. Florida california, and then especially in some of the states where he would be travelling through you. I think you went back and forth from Florida Michigan quite a bit, So you think about going through georgia. Tennessee in kentucky and ohio. Ok You tell me you didn't pull off in murder, people, it's really tough, doubly air. That didn't happen. Guy, who seemingly had no issue killing people. Of course, I always think that that the numbers are probably higher. Billy would be about sixty six having today, some like that. ten years older than me here, any still in I a california prison, as far as I can tell, but I couldn't find him on

california in me look up page. But everything I read said he still in a california prison, though, unlike a lot of stories, there was reason reporting on this story because as they just identified teresa land dear? So there were a lot of news articles written about that william mansfield, was released and ninety ninety, after serving only ten years of assent. So here we go back to what he did, which was horrible. Oh my gosh, I heating eating, kill anybody, but are they Most people listening would say short of murder. There's there's nothing worse, that you can do exactly two harm a child and it was one child. Oh, my gosh, it was forty counts in again did he only in a plead guilty to four of them, but he got thirty years, so somebody He had to sit down and make the decision that yes, this guy's

rehabilitated he's been m. Mmm otto in made exactly Letty mount after ten years. He must have really for the show on the girl the door I don't know if I'm on their pro boredom I'm having a real tough time. With that somebody said thirty years now I get it, you mean I have to do the whole thirty right, but thirty, three percent of it that doesn't seem right, You don't think you're can always do twenty of it, and now do you want this guy out living next to you and that's the question that that I asked a lot if you're on them parole board and you ve got kids. Do you want william mansfield senior moving in next or you, and for me that answer is no mean either. Now I get it the guy's, probably in his eighty eighty, something still I mean when he was released He is not alive today I couldn't figure out when he died, but he be a hundred and ten or something

then if he were alive today, I didn't want him as my neighbour. No I wouldn't either I get it, people Deserve a second chance at some point, but I don't think it's it's right after ten years for this guy in and what he did, I guess sailor. Billy's brother Gary was arrested in two thousand. Twenty on drug possession in an distribution charges yet even more, you know New reports in in this case is fairly does not like stand on the news I know no newsweek reported that gary in a bid to get immunity, told police, There were many more bodies buried all over the place out there. and in this article it was said that more were made. is we're on earth and that they also hated items on a nearby property there were deemed to be suspicious, but we're separate, and apart from the drug charge,

ok, so that makes it sound why they have something to do with, be murder or something like that. The problem is Couldn't find any other reporting about it? It's been a couple of years in so either the hammer release dead or their own mounted I don't know, there's just there, wasn't anything that I could find unless I just missed it. According to tamper, beta com in an article about the identification of teresa filling them court documents said that the women were all sexually assaulted by both mansfield junior, his younger brother geary, in their father, william westfield senior. It was mansfield junior, though, who would eventually kill the women and often dismember them. This is according to court records, but I couldn't find the court records. So this is what tampa bay dot com reported. If that is true, it sheds a

different light on geary. I think where he knew senior was banned, We already knew that junior was bad. Gary was charged with accessory murder- and I really don't know what it amounted to or what it was related to just the fact that he was with his brow. other. He fled with his brother. I know, but one thing that the cap nagging the whole time that I was researching and in writing this one was that so you have this family home in we he watching you. You're, saying I like saying that bodies are being buried there at least four maybe more now that they have been on earth. Somebody not know that a person or people burying bodies in your backyard. I'm thinking about my backyard right now. It would be very hard

for someone to bury a body and may not be able to notice? That sum is dug a huge hole filled it back in even if they'd covered it with grass again be almost impossible, the air. So that's what I kept coming back to was how involved were some of these people in either this? She will solve the murderers or, at the very least, the cover up. They knew about it, but didn't say anything, and it could be that that william mansfield junior is the one that killed all these women or others. I have been involved where they could have been involved in sexual assault or whatever it is. I just couldn't get over the fact that you know he was able to to do all this and no one noticed yeah yeah you're right or was it that they notice, then they were going to say anything because they were too afraid

or were involved through involved. So I dont know I can't definitively say anything. I don't know That was a nagging thought they can going through? My mind the whole time leave the house, why you don't, but I let my dogs out here. I welcome a new stuff with them and take a mountain, hard, I know right now- that's not passing the task done, not missing that very you. You gotta dig a substantial bit to bury, bought you and I agree. If these bodies could have been dismembered and and somewhere, I read where I think one was just like a bag of bones, but still still disturbing the earth yeah and it's kind of hard to cover that up. I think

now, if you've got thirteen broken down cars on your property, maybe not as hard because you dig the hole and then you just push one of the cars over it yeah, but I- but I don't know- I don't know if that was the case or not. It was said to have, in a junkyard, but in wrapping up gibbs either. This is one that can grab me as I was going through it. I just thought you: what was this guy childhood really like it comes out late, That is dad. Was this really bad guy who committed sexual crimes against children? Could he have been a good father was he a good role model or, like you, ve often talked about, did billy mansfield junior, you kind of witness his dad doing certain things in grow up to believe that those things were ok to do, I think so or normal, because I do things that happens.

some time definitely think he had an influence on him, but either way it's a it's kind of a you know, a messed up, family, definitely a messed up family. I mean dad to two sons. I don't I don't know anything about the other side or the other children. You know Virginia. Was there the whole time here? did she know anything? Did she say anything? I have no idea, but you she stuck by her husband, even with all the evidence that came out rang, he wasn't guilty. There is some concern, information about what she thought about Billy's convictions. In some reports it said she didn't believe it and some she said

She did, but there were circumstances that caused him to do it. So I dunno you kind of like to know what happened to the other siblings yeah and what road they ended up down after hearing about you know the two brothers and what they did yeah, but you know he if they turned out to be upstanding citizens they probably wouldn't want to be in the new york connected to all this, and I would understand that for sure if, boy, asked me to give an interview. I would probably say no thanks, I'm doing good. I dont really. want my name in the paper, nothing that this change talk about right, too to be associated with with all this mass, but that's it episode on william mansfield junior. That the one thing that I did think was weird, for this type of case was that there were

in a time of information on how the individual's died, because normally we kind of go through that we do, but for the five people were found so many years later they were skeleton eyes just skeletons and I don't know the billy was up a lot of information. Yes, he pleaded guilty, but if you think about it, He didn't even give up the names of the two people who were still on identify. No, he didn't at that point and you would have thought. Maybe that might have been part of a plea deal hey. At least you gotta give us an aim. We show some goodwill to get us nor hang about lead or help us. You know to identify this he's people so yeah. I dont know that he gave up a lot of information, so we'll get some voice mouser unchecked of sound desir those,

I got a good thing and wanted to let you know that found the now never love. What about all or the help you later, ok, I did not know that you're we ve talked about In that episode, it's not a phrase that I had ever heard before. Now I get it goes back a little ways, so I just thought it was something there, we use back then, but wasn't used today, but I appreciate it at first: thought he was driving in the in the daytona five hundred there. I it love like woo you

here like the wind blown by. He was leading the daytona five hundred hi guy. My name is money I am polish, but I have lived in ireland for the past seven years. I am quite a new car and I have to say that I really do enjoy. Listening to the peer review I do appreciate how much do I owe you calling each at both on the researchers by golden q s eyes. I just love. Humor. You really worked great together and bound over each other, very funny way- and I called I would perhaps be congestion or paid employees?

I'll, say a hostile of trying to browse polish name, though I part of an irish k is that I know here quite big and case of green wire through the convicted murderer. You might want to check it out. I don't know, planning on doing any applications from ireland, but I think the big one would be very interesting one. Ok, so I think I'm safe and I hope it wasn't too long- take care and keep up the good work and keep your own time the game by Alright nice email, railways, voicemail, but yeah was not enough with that case, but definitely put on the list and look into it prepaid all the voice miles. We had some mailbag.

gibbs, Amelia citizen, some chicago style popcorn, but also some how lapenotiere header filipino at a place called cranky mike's. Well, which seemed like what I would call my popcorn place. If I had one really what your should be designed coming down the stairs, it should come as cranky mice, but both very good and yeah, and both are very much appreciated, all right buddy. That is it for another episode. who crime all the time so for might and Gavi stay safe and keep your own time taking the

The the I.