Everyone and welcome episode, twenty of true crime, all the time ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner and true crime might gibson gibbey? How are you today may anodyne? Well, that's also here, I like to hear that you're doing well. Is there any other way to be? Well, I don't know at some point you're going to say I'm not doing well and then I dunno what to say what, out for a body round me then I'll be worried. I gibbs

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his killer came to be so. This sounds like a very deep dark and for me, anytime, you get never before heard audio from people very close to the case. Ahmet listen to mind of a monster on apple podcasts, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, so gimme I want to start out with a clip today, what kind of lead us right into the case? Let do that Well, I can only go by what the guy said at trial, because they were the ones that were inside the house, so according to them, and they waited for my husband to come home and one of them there were two in the house and one of them shot him and killed him bill said that I told him to do everything. He said that he was supposed to make it look like a burglary and kill my husband as they're, saying that he was manipulated by me, but at the same time he manipulated his friends to go along and do this with him, and none of them said that I told them to do this.

And they all testified at the trial that they all did it, because he told them to all the conversations they had about the martyr they had with do is him not with me, and they said that one of them said that they did it for him because they them they thought he was gonna get caught and they wanted to help him sore I think a lot of listeners are gonna, recognise that voices PAMELA smart, you mean huge case And it's kind of work where I want to start with the fact that you this the first trial ever we televised which position deal absolutely. I think it really is again, this was pre oj. So a kind. ushered in this whole phenomena of trial, watching right, which began, I mean, even to this day, if there's a trial on people get glued to it. What are you talking about?

areas, were you know. Kay The anthony any of these that have come down the pike and obviously oj was huge, but kind of started. All of that, and You have to me. Are you couple. Episodes have been real dark right women. Talking about really does really dark. Yes, sir, killers that have you no killed now there is a people and making light of this case at all, because, as we heard the clip and in a lot of people are gonna, be familiar with this case, a meal the ends up dead, here we have a victim at, in time, you have one spouse involved in some form or another the killing of the other spouse happens a lot yeah yeah. I made this is not a unique situation. Nobody is this. This

because this is the first time. All of america is watching it I think that has a lot to do with it. Now you ve got the tea. you're student, taboo relationship which, which was kind of the kick off latin america. To right I mean I'm guessing it. Probably always Canada has happened, but this is a this time that it's in the industry media were here about this, you yeah? We hear about the law student teacher, you know coming after their, so easy. at the whole nation is kind of glued to this case about one killing, but look at some of the episodes that we do where these people are committing just unbelievable acts and the body count is so high a doesn't get anywhere near. The coverage of this might get some local regional, but yet it somewhat fascinating took to take a look. this case and see you get up. Honey

Fifty reporters over a hundred fifty converge a new hampshire to cover this case and ninety ninety. I'm trying to remember mike at that time was a really that many actual tv I mean we we're just still having the major three networks and not a lot of cable networks. At that time. No, we had a lot of cable news, not not to the extent we have today. Yet I mean it's a whole different world, but you know what I don't know is whether or not they had court t v. I don't think they did because this was televised locally. Like channel nine or somethin we'd courtiers, What tv came around, but the time o J that's what I'm thinking here, but I think this I have been maybe the impetus for corti, my back, because the amount of people that were talking about watching it. If you were in that business impressive, but this is something

that people will sit home and watch all day, long yeah. So what talk about like we like to do. You know the early life of pam smart. She was Born PAMELA an wages, coral gables florida on august? Sixteen nineteen sixty seven. Second, three children. She Add a sister Elizabeth who was six years older than she was, and then she had a brother John. That was three years younger than she was. Her father was a commercial airline pilot and her mom worked as a part time legal secretary now and PAM was an elementary school. Family moved to wyndham new hampshire and pay went to high school in derry, new Hampshire and was a cheer later now that was made of that back is again.

She was painted as this black widow husband killer and a lot a lot of it was built on, like some salacious things, sure rising too Some photos that came out early autumn is white. Bikini photos yeah that turned out to be I remember it was her. Her friend we're gonna end, or some kind of petitions. They had taken pictures of each other. really wasn't s salacious, I think, is what it was portrayed to be. But once its leaked out in the media, the pictures come out the perception right yeah. The stories I will run when it. I think that's what a lot of this law, People and let's just say it right- there are a ton of people that they pam smart is guilty, as can be but there is a subset of people sure and you can find whole websites dedicated to the facts,

that she's an innocent person. He, I think they they would say if this occurred, in today's world, which she The outcome be the same. and I don't know how it wouldn't be. You know based on that I'll testimony and everything that I know, but obviously we can revisit that at the end after we go through every there. I think you did. I would reverse it. Question I would say or not, reversible I would say with the outcome, indifferent, if we didn't have the media uproar that she went through It was two years earlier Would she have ended up in the same situation, but I think that I think, that's what you have a lot of people saying is she was can acted in the media before the trial even start by You still had a jury of her peers and again book it on right, we'll get and all that, but you like said she was a cheerleader after her

school she went to college, afford a state and your balikh. She was very smart dear, graduated, I think in three years nineteen eighty eight she had pretty close to four point grade: point average forty good iq yeah, you're. One thing I did find very far needing about pam. Won't you at this time, was that was really and a heavy metal music. So much so that I mean she had light one at that her career. She had taken like broadcasting in and she Actually did this. Radio show at florida state really and called metal madness and she hard herself, the maiden of metal. So here is this energy by scenes. Pit has seen pictures ever she's very petite blonde,

doesn't look to me like the met me of metal right at all, and I think people, Had said, you know when they actually found out, who was they were shocked if they did it to be somebody that was much more outlandish, looking than what pam was very cheap, the tv show the way thing about pal is, and we talk this a lot I dont think she grew up in a at home. I don't think she had a bad childhood, and find anything now that law. Me to believe that He had precursors or things at talk about in a lotta cases, pretty normal life yeah There were some signs even from her She would say that. No she had to be the centre of everything, and these are direct statements. Right bypass

it. Basically saying everywhere I go, I'm all the attracting attention I'm loud about going and I need to be the centre of everything kind of fame. Hungary yeah, yeah or egocentric or whatever you want to call it. There was Something else that I read that talked about. She was very compulsive in. And so much that she had to organise her clothes a color in her early stage, OECD a little I mean it sounds like tat a little bit, but. you know had every and folded her dirty laundry. Why did that grown up to? Did you run? I did those yeah, that's a man confused. My mom it's very you just throw it hamper. I just wanted to look neat. Ok. So let me ask you this: did you do this, because this? What pan did she not the folded, the dirty laundry she had won, hamper four wives dirty and one

or for dogs. Awful did at an angle effort. She beat you, then find that little bit better. She lived her life that way in a very organised fashion. a point where it was said that she would become very upset when any part, her schedule was disrupted. Yes, she liked thanks very regimented. the way she liked them and if they didn't go that way, she would become very upset, collect them with Julia roberts when the her husband like tat, The cannes and turned the key sleeping within a media not sure this isn't that much different and but in reverse in reverse. so we're. Gonna talk about gregg, smart, because It's no secret. Everybody knows gregg, smart is the victim here. Gregg was born on September. Fourth, nineteen sixty five. He grew up and nashua new Hampshire. He had a brother and again

think he grew up in just a really nice, loving, loving home headache, we are bringing. I couldn't find anything new of about gregg it all. I think everybody loved gray yeah here going good looking guy had if you see pictures of gregg he this can only describe it as a glorious main of hair, now. You know I'm jealous about hair. We should be cause a very little in certain regions, he had just aid eighties, rocker, go. I am hair yeah when he was young. Yet I at think he was under heavy metal music as well, are made in and he looked up

I mean he looked like a yubikey, be the lead singer, yeah, like a nineteen eighties metal band, singer yeah that kind of hair and it was glorious. Did you wear the tight pants too? I did not see that okay. I did not see that it's kind of what brought pam in gregg together her love? fur heavy metal, their yeah, I mean. Then he looked apart. Yet they met at a party. They weren't they on their teens. I think when they met and this was a new year's eve party rat. You know nineteen, eighty six, probably going into nineteen eighty seven. It was their shared passion of heavy metal music. and his look, I think, She was really she saw him and just down as it she melted Now, I'm sure there was a lot the other way too. He saw her and you know it instant. it's gotta be a two way, yeah an instant thing, but you know he he. guitar little bed.

He was in the heavy metal music. He looked apart, so deeply qatar good, like he players, hans, I have a bunch of guitar sitting over here that I can't play. Look nice one single bit. They look nice. I can play chords and that's it yeah. So you know again there's not a lot out not a lot about gregg and anyone. I it's one thing: kind of like to do. We don't want to forget the victim or, as gregg, is the victim in situation in that's one thing, we never want to do and I think, even in this trial right in this matter, the frenzy he gets lost in the shuffle does he know, because if it becomes a circus here, becomes all about. Pam goes about pan the team, which sex yep everything's we're going talk about. It should be, and anything that's kind of the sad thing that you see and a lot of cases is that the big gets lost. Yes now

Obviously we're gonna be talking about pam, the the most sure because that's kind of where the story leads us, but we just did forget about him and we we don't. We said they meet, new year's eve, eighteen, eighty six real, nineteen, eighty seven yeah around february, eighty seven they're gonna get in syria, the other their hot and heavy and serious and am really within what couple years they're married the other hitched. as newlyweds, they seem be this great couple two young good lookin people. Prime of their life get rate ago. Do these great things- and I think pam at one time, even described her life with greg. other people as picture perfect and that's a quote. Again, amuse near quotes that nobody can see. He does. I do like the uses them wrong them.

Greg is this kind of described a free spirit, really fun loving pam is described as yet. This point twenty three year old, just rural vivacious and perky in, Outgoing as well, they even had this little court that they would do. And it had something to do with their names and in it We had to do with the way they would write em route, Instead of writing. Pam P, in she would p, m e and call in he would call her pamby mackay and then gregg would write as with double g, so after getting married payment gregg, they semblance dairy, new hampshire. Population around thirty thousand. starting their life off in this a pretty nice area. You nice residential area to store.

We can't go in there printing. This place. It's got, you know all new furniture and it just as such, A really nice place, so there live in the life tat to you, people start in their careers, nice condo, furnished to cars to cars. They got a dog. So they even named their dog halen. After the famous rock band van Halen and the other thing is where they moved was just block away from greg's parents, he could gorman, I mean just go visit parents, brothers, anytime, you want it yeah. We had a couple of brothers. I think I said before he had one brother, but I remember yeah, but he yeah he's got he's got a couple of brothers yeah. They got the infrastructure, they got nice hastily and port system nearby bright? Everything seems to be going great. But it doesn't last very long and the apple starts up now.

that long after their merit six months elements or something right and a lot of it is because gregg starts to change the big change with. I think for her is that he changes his look. He cut that lovely me of hair. You were just talking about its glorious, but europe. He does become more conservative party that is cutting his hair. He becomes an insurance salesman's. I'm sure that was a big part. If he wanted to look the part yeah, he changes is wardrobe right yeah I got it he's gotta, look like the salesman. You can't go out there and type I peons and rock n roll shirts- and things like I can't walk round like you do but yeah. He does have to create this image so that he can be a successful insurance tells me about accounts. He was, he was doing well but he wasn't into rock music

any more I mean not the private listen to it, but he wasn't play. Where is he was grown up? right, I mean he's been in an adult and he's got bills to pace who's out there doing has to do. I think it's. What most of us did right right? We were. To axe until we had oh up and be into why not the wrong was still love in your heavy metal. Yet obeying your head. Oh you want, but you can't do that when you're trying to make money, if an insurance business where he was trying to do yeah, I agree so You touched on it that this was a big deal for pam and it was led by friends that pan thought. Greg had gone from looking like a bond. Jovi to some yuppie And she didn't like that then turnaround because fell in love with this guy That was your dangerous and had the rocker look.

Yes, I mean they're not even to their first anniversary they're starting to have serious problems and as they get close to, therefore anniversary. Then They have a real problem because That's when gregg confessed the path that he had an affair, he wouldn't look. Further attention were because he wasn't get it at home. Yet here and again was that because she was not happy with him not attracted to have good about whom I dont know all the details. I mean I've, not condoning what he did not in any way. Now. not blaming her because he did that right is instead. Unfortunately, this happens and marriages in the press The problem with with it was is that it's just did everything down a really bad pass. So every time they were given an argument, it was add that she would bring up the affair and sheep

testifies later trial. I think that dumb here, she just didn't feel import from that point on shed no Austin gregg, which I don't blame, or in that one hundred percent in a fair kind of who has a big effect on the whole trust level. I forget about it, but at this point, I think she's already made the decision that she wants out of this marriage, but she doesn't tell greg that. I don't believe that I agree with that too, and I think that's with with a lot of couples right. They try to try. They try to trudge through it or try to play through trying to get through whatever you want to call, or they try to find a way to get the other spouse To initiate, they don't want to be the one initiated. I think that is a legal recourse sabotage. They find ways to try.

if that happened, they don't learn on the bad ones. Yet they don't want to be as the one seen as having laugh right. They almost want to force the other into leaving. I don't know, to be the case, but I mean I think, that's that I think that happens a lot for sure. You know I love audible, audible, less me enjoy all of my audio entertainment in one as inaudible member. You can choose one title among to keep from their entire catalogue, including the latest best sellers and new release. You also get access to a growing selection of included audio books, audible originals in podcast. Like a mention, you can download a stream included titles all you want. I like the fact that honourable goes with me. Wherever I go with our want to listen to apply, cast or a different type of title. It's there from new members can try audible, free for thirty days, visit, audible, dot com, slash t cat tc, eighty or text he

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in school and she had gone from broadcasting. and she really want to do something in broadcasting, genes are getting a job, as the media services director with the school board in hampton knew him Now this is not what she had in mind. I think, broadcast testing. She was thinking, I'm gonna work. the television station were you even in the movie that they make great to die for with the cold kid mary. That change it around a little bit. She is like a sure whether whether europe similar for yeah, but that is, I think, what PAM aspired to be not It was whether written on meteorology deserve a reporter or something like that, but you taking this job, I keep him and she's. Only at this point what twenty? twenty three do two years old.

What she was required to do in this job was basically distribute produce, educational type, videos. would be used throughout the school district This was not like some hype job. I dont believe road? She had her own secretary. She, the job, even came with an intern, a student in turn. Yeah, that's gonna, play a big ro as we move down as we move down the line, PAM was Do this job, Yeah, this is winning high school and she was volunteering, as adult facilitator for low drug awareness programmes- and this is I know where things really start to turn south, because its all of this. Drug awareness programme, which was called project self esteem that she meets.

our students, name billy flame, william flat, but he went by Billy Billy the fall of nineteen. Eighty nine their relationship kind of blossoms from working together on this project Steam and then continues in some kind of orange juice. Yo competition and, if you had that gives what they were. Yet there are supposed to make a video that would be sent to. are entered into some type of competition for like two growers association or something like that here too. We about? Greg's confessed his affair, and this is caused her to push away and she's spending time with this high school student is fifteen years old name, billy. so gives you. Ve got a twenty two year old teacher.

That all the boys in school thought was attractive. Yes,. and I'm wondering cause her dog was name hailing the favourite Means maybe your fair band was vain Helen. I think maybe one of theirs was, I don't know if it is one of the top song was hot writer each. I wondered if I do not like that fell She was living that role. I did not put two and two together because of that little drumroll that begins the song. That's why we keep you around to make those kind of connection right. That's what I'm doing. have those connections that ties everything together to give me connect to. I think, at this point gibbs, I want to talk about Why? Because, obviously he is a central figure in this case, as mention these fifteen years old sophomore in high school we already know that he's attracted. Two pam smart and one About Billy is that he loved heavy metal

If you look at his pictures, he kind of looks like like a young boy What car me a little bit in the face ass? That's what I got from it, but he had he had the hair Yeah do not want the same type of main that gregg had, but I he came off is to pay em. Greg was four years ago. Yes Would you agree that yeah but yeah I mean he wore a black leather jacket. He loved heavy metal is favoured. Ban was motley crew. I think she was attracted to him. I don't want say from the gecko, but very very early on We I mean in that drove her to spend more time with him cause like that attraction, but yet he had the look that she has always said. She's been attracted to Ass little darling, I didn't have it at home anymore, but flan was born march, twelve, Nineteen. Seventy four:

he had a little bit tougher upbringing. I think his his parents. Relationship was described. Is more. And they argued all the time, and it was said that you he was kind of caught in the middle having to listen to all these arguments nineteen eighty six a big event. Happens and Billy's life. His mom catches is dad cheating out that, I guess he's been cheating on her for a long time. She d as the leaving and therein, california and all the way from California to new Hampshire. That's a big move, ass, a long wait here. So Billy enters junior high twelve years old when he gets to new Hampshire, and by all accounts his mother would say from that point. Ford Billy was very angry I don't know if it was solely related this traumatic event, or

move, the big moon went out there figure, but then, to a place called see. Brook And this is where billy with me his best friends, and important because his best friends come into the picture in autumn play a role in the whole case. Here seeber like I said this is where bill meets. This best friends, so it's bill and patrick and all who goes by peat and you ve got vance le time, more day in the time. That's right! and they called him J r because he was a junior year. They some sense, but these guys, like reform. This really close bonn. They did everything together they shovelled snow, just everything, could do, but they even doubt light. It was said they helped out. Elderly residents with

free services like shovelling snow, and I made so much at some point in time. They were doing some really nice things so, talk a little bit about J r and we just talk about these folks cause. They do play no part in this whole story but Joe, was kind like a bookworm and he was under like edgar allan POE. He had a. camaro that he was fixing up and his dream was to become a marine. again it was said that when he had time, He was either visiting his grandmother or He was helping at his chin. Urge to serve dinner too people that were less fortunate mean people real. said some nice things about him. Yes, since, like he was just a good kid, That's everything I read! Then he took About p, his mom said you know very loving sign, but now

the three of them he was the one that probably got in the most trouble as yet Stir he d like to go to school, so he would skip a lot was true. It There was even a rumour floating around that he had told somebody that his goal in life was to become a hitman. That's that's it! That's a big. read for a yes yeah, I would say it is given the fact that we, you know what is about to come. I would say that that is a real big red flag, but Then you ve got teachers talk about the three of these kids, as impressive, young men genuinely likeable and caring, and they were three described as intelligent, so I think they have a lot of things go on for them, and then we're. Gonna talk about events unfold, but before get there. We have to talk about the intern I mention that pans job

came with the student in turn, her name was cecilia appears also from seaboard she was fifteen years old. She really became like really good friends with pam. keep in mind pam's going through this tough. Wretched, her marriage. She found out that that gregg had an affair and cecilia It was said you know, had never had a friend like pam because palms pretty she's intelligent. She self assured, and she made. cecilia feel soup. Extra important. By being around her right, which people can do absolutely

you know people that are really have this magnetic personality. I mean you can feel better just by being around in the same room. Right like ie, fills totally better right now, because you're sitting across from me, ok, that's insecure, The other thing is pans, making money, so he's, taking cecilia out she's, paying for dinner there doing stuff. She what's butts recall, yeah, which emmy for a fifteen year old You know, DR, that new honda see our x ray whatever was gone, Then you know she now she thinks this is cool, mean I'm the driver, teachers, car but this friendship between the two of em, it's done. to show on the people in sicilies life right, she's, changing still moms not liking it all her daughters acting different. What goes from being a mentor really fast being like

be a five yeah, to see his grades are starting to drop and at point. Her mom even goes to the school and says you know. This is not right that a teacher would spend time the fifteen year old student outside of school system principle says he. I noticed that too but then they don't do anything about it right now. So big now they acknowledge it, but they don't do anything about it. That's a theme that that you- and I talk about in a lotta cases. Now usually that thing- miss based on much severe crimes that people aren't punished for as much as they should be. But again this is something that somebody should have noticed They did notice of a shot. Somebody should have taken more action, she's hanging out with cecilia, but then she starts hanging out with bill to its three of them. There

went to the mall they're going to restaurants, and this is at that there still working on this video project like we talked about and its at this point that am starts inviting them over to her. Condo. Ok In greg's out of town to work on this project. Not one point goes out of town for some type of work, related conference or some And she has bill and. Cecilia over to watch movies,. and the movie happens to be nine half weeks moment up proper maybe the while our student, not with fifteen year olds but back then that move, was considered very racy, risque risque had some good work. Risque. PAM asked cecilia to walk the dog. And this is when she gets Billy up to her room and they have said

for the first time they were lasting heavy metal yeah while had saxon, I mean. Is that a deal? It just part of the story that, he's trying to, I think, she's trying to channel this back to What she's into exactly right! This is what was when she met him. he's changed. Now I found a replacement, the replacement of brilliant. Yeah yeah, and why, wouldn't you I'm a problem of these fifteen years right, that's the problem! If she found a twenty two year old replacement, be differences will be a different story. They start having sex pretty regularly. After this point,. it's not too long after this first encounter that they start to talk about getting rid of greg. Because basically PAM is telling billy. If we don't get rid of greg We can't keep seeing each other now.

Basing this on, the testimony of people at the trial right This is not what pam says. This is what people say so, and we're going to hear some of that at some point bill asked pam about. Why? Don't you just get a divorce and the answer from pam, is that greg would take Everything She wouldn't have any money, and this gonna come up later trial from several different people She would lose the condo and everything in it boarding to someone testimony. It's at this point that she starts to say the graves been beating her. only way to get out of it and to be with Billy, is to killing two gives them This is where they start talking about and planning the murder. Greg smart, because if he wants to with her greg's gotta be all the way. Cracked and, of course

We know his evacuation horrors is just off the charts, I mean, I don't think, there's any doubt right this kid's fifteen years old, I'm assuming he's with hot teacher at em. Maybe I'm assuming incorrectly, that this may was way. His first sexual experience, I'm sure, he's in love with pam smart at this point is an probably do anything. make sure that that doesn't it there a number of discussions about what to do, and now Billy's involved. J hours involved pizza. Involved, the beginning of these discussions, They basically settle on a very basic plan outlined by pan. That is basically that their guns, the boys, are gonna to dark clothes. tie their long metal ban, hair bag super

The plan involves: pam, leaving the rear doors open This is gonna. Allow bill impede to enter the condo, make it look like a robbery. Take Stuff, you know that that kind of thing- some any trot jewelry stuff like that, but there's things that bill instead, his friends that they have to follow number one is Turn on any lights. the second one is: don't hurt the dog Helen. am wants him to put hail and in the basement. So he d you have to witness? The murder doesn't want Helen traumatized bright she's, looking for the dark right, the third one. Is you the gun and not a knife, because a knife is too messy because a call to Billy. pam doesn't want to get any blood.

Her white leather couch, mrs very detailed descriptions that she's telling them instructions I mean she's came very detailed instructions how to do a very controlling instructions. Talked about her rosy dish. Yes Can she has control issues so again? You were to go on the theory that she did not do this. these people are making up some really soup specific instructions and The concern was more about the dog not been traumatized in the white house, not being enough not being soiled verses, then her husband, yeah yeah, you got no concern for him, but what for the dog and I'll get the couch and don't give blood on my couch ya mean The boys even state that at one point pam, is taught

with them and trying to figure out. How is she going to act when she Sk Greg's body should choose. Scream call for help run out into the street bang. On a neighbour's house, I mean they're, giving a lot of detail that it's gonna come up trial later on till we get them First of nineteen. Ninety so pay greg leave the house for work gregory first pam after him, now PAM had a school board meeting scheduled for that night. and apparently it was supposed to run pretty late. They were having a salary review. and some discussions about. some things that we're gonna occur in the fall, so hurt, thought was she was not going to get home until well after gregg was dead, this goes into the the planning part of it. Now that day,

by all accounts, pan drop by billy's locker too inform him that the doors she had left the doors open like they talked about. Everything was rate ago one. I found very interesting gibbs is that it was said that she had on basis every piece of jewelry that she owned. She was wearing like all her gold chains. She had a ring on every finger to blamed right, but why would she do that? Maybe it's how she's gonna account for the robbery, not human bright. She doesn't want them to take her jaws right. So she's gonna. Where everything she said. Let us here account for it not being missing. Yes, because if then she I can build aware it later on, because it's gonna have to be stolen, thrown away oh whatever we know she's, it's all about her, an image. So at some point later in that day, Gibbs Billy,

As PAM to say, that there is little snag in the plan because They need a ride to go pick up the getaway car, which is posed to be jaguars grandmothers yellow. impala from like nineteen. Seventy eight nokia pam agrees to take them to go, get it now we jump forward in time were low bit before eight thirty and gatt, J, r and now We got a new guy raymond fowler, that's brought into the plan d two are, I guess what you while the getaway drivers, yeah they get a look out and get away drivers their part lee flan and PETE randal. They enter the condo and They find the dog well. Accounts have a hard time getting this dog under control. They gotta check.

The door ground. They finally get it. and they throw the dog down the stairs the basement. They ran as the house. They hear they're, making it look like a robbery. No one thing they do. Is they they take this pair stereo speakers and they said by the door, because their wanting to taken as they leave gonna set up right now there stage in themselves speakers in our I read it. They had even put a little tv out there to aka yeah, so you ve got bill. Ie is behind the door and you have pee on the stairway. Break turns the key here, as the house. He turns on the lightness calling out for the dog dog doesn't come, and this is where the kind of leaps on him Ambushes aim He jumps and see you get in

two kids on aim he's powered at some point. They make great him overs billfold and then pete asks for his wedding ban, yes, and by accounts. He says I cannot do that. My wife would kill me too now, have billy scatter gun, two greg's head. He says guy forgive me he squeezed, is the trigger the gun goes off. Gregg falls to the floor.

I called him a bank you know pointed to his head one hundred years. It seemed like the sort of god. Forgive me, the god. Forgive me the I pulled the trigger, so that was court. Testimony from Billy flynn which I want to play now verses when we're talking at trial because he's action talking about, in time where he kills gregg death, it was important to play that yeah, so both boys, run out of the condo.

get in the getaway car and they take off me while Greg's as you know, this has been shot with a thirty eight caliber holler point right behind his left ear What goes in and does it image and enlarges inside the skull it just took. One shot is one shot So when day, when they move the body, they fine underneath him the wallet, the billfold that billy asked for never took that with him. I also find the car keys. And they find the diamond studs wedding ban still on greg's finger. So around ten twenty minutes and thirty pam comes home. She was in the front door. She looks on the four your light in she sees Craig lay there. Pam yells help my house my husband.

And then frantically, she goes from door to door in the in the congo, billing she cheese and knocking on the doors ring in the door bells trying to get anybody's attention one neighbours comes out in she's, creams husband, sir he's on the floor, she says I don't know what's wrong with him. The neighbour says it was strange that after she says I dont know what's wrong with him, since then says something strange. She says why do they keep doing this. That was her words. Why did they keep doing I do they keep doing this Ever find out what she was referencing, what happened before no I'd really loved to now I could see why a neighbour would say that's very strange if she's not adding the additional information of. What they were doing before I always that just part of.

Her setting up kind, because, obviously, if she's in on this as everybody, The saying she is right she's doing some play acting, yes certain script, the sea. right. Jonathan. Is that part of the set up saying? Why do they keep doing this? could seem like somebody had been harassing there and now they finally to get it right carried through in and took it to the final step. So will it work, because, it's going door to door venture. She she gets a lot of the neighbors come on out and two of the neighbors call nine one one so, finally, the play have been notified and they're on their way. This is one Aber argues again easily. He comes out and he says what's wrong and then again he say my husband's on the floor and ask her what's wrong with him. You know where were you to actually, where is he

you know what I go inside and he's trying to go inside and she's. Like don't go inside, they could still be in there and he's. Trying to save, let me go in there I can assist. Helping reich is in did she say: don't go in there. it could be in there hey, there too

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the plea, show up processing the scene like they would do. Obviously, there talking Japan and a couple of come out. I believe here as well detective that makes a statement at some point that I believe pretty early on. I think that this. Robbery with staged they do by, because I think that some things, look cleaner than they should be like somebody went back and more than they probably should have that makes yeah, I think, like went overboard. You I'd like with like fifteen year old would do if they thought we're trying to stage a bargain right, yeah and that's the only way I can say it Some areas they went overboard on making sure look, nice neat and in areas they over did you know I think we, We talked about how they took couple doublespeak

in a tv set it out back by the back door, that matter the police, that why would they not take them like those in someone's trying to make it look like it was. robbery that got interrupted when he came home and aid in they shot him. And ran off. So they the part, is there talking to PAM, I think some, Detectives also think that she, putting on enact yes, they do that that that comes out as well. So think we have to jump forward into the other, investigating this and its about weeks ended the investigation that the lead detective. whose name is Pelletier? He It's an anonymous till it's a fee oh collar, that's providing this tip, basically says she name, cecilia appears cecilia was they in turn we talked about and

is that cecilia knew about and planned PAM, smart and the three team. the boys Greg's mark. That's a pretty good tat S, a really good. It. then on Sunday june. Ten J r senior, so jars dad. brings in a snub nosed thirty eight to the the station and he believes that this is the pistol that may have been the murder weapon, So I would say you know within a short period of time the police have you pretty good tips and even he mentions cecilia to the police as well So that another they heard her name twice. PAM smart is smack dab on police radar, they are starting to zero in on her. The very next day the please god

talk to cecilia, but it's not in, about three or four days later that she will breaks down and tells them everything at this point: the they're talking to the boys too, but the boys are not talking there the stonewalling, except for raymond fowler because he already caved. And he's already written out, an affidavit saying it actually what he did right now they have where's affidavit. They have Pierce is basically confession, slash count of everything that happened. But that's really not enough: they need more, it's a lot but they need more if they're gonna die pam smart and the others to the murder and have the smoking gun.

What did they do? Have the smoking gun by? I think at this point there trying to slam dunk this thing. Well, we, right? Because they, even though they have the gun and ballistic show that. That was the gun used, but the gun was So clean they could lift any prints. So they have a gun but can determine who who pull the trigger? By any, even even if it's it's jars gone yet, Let's say he's involved. we still have nothing to type PAM who I think it this point their starting to think masterminded. This all three so this is when they had they come but the idea that they're gonna, why cecilia but different ways are gonna tapir phone they're going to recall pam in also, there again do an actual body wire and how cecilia, talk to pan in person and the key

see thing about. This is, and I want it so bad. I want, papers are out there, but it's a just a mess, you cannot hear it at all. Even at trials are unit trial. It may prove to be a bit issue right. They had literally play it numerous times. they had to have jury where headphones. They headed if a transcript of what, thought it was. I think you could interpret it one way If you wanted to hear something, you could That's what you heard, but you can also say didn't hear anything, it's how bad the quality was and even had experts. Try to you know, bump up and she would even argue- much later in life that she couldn't afford During her trial that type of expert to analyze the tape. I am

and thrown out what they do get The tapes is really damning evidence yeah, I think so, an end its in a nutshell, pan admitting that she knew ahead of time that she As part of it at the end of one of the tape, Conversations pam invites cecilia over to her house later, so they go out and pam makes it, at the end and says well, you'd better, be there are all key. after you with a rambo knife, Now she said it is a joke. The k bar this may be one where you're, not actually a suspect He ninety now pretty young air have you ever been new hampshire. Apps no have now I'm clearer. Thank you. Your clear in this one will have to wait for them One, but that's a new segment on to cram all the time is Gibbey a suspect or not, and in this

These were san now thank via so let's go Two august, first, nineteen, ninety. and this is when during the miller day, detective pelletier. goes into PAM smarts office, now she nosey because she's talk to him. A bunch of time They ve questioner, pelletier says in a pan of some good news and I've got some bad news. The good news is we ve solved your husband's murder. The bad news is you're under arrest and that's basically what starts the circus the trial? Maybe the media frenzies areas it is to follow that we talked about some of the trial we had to endure, to you know, connect the dots so gives I want to play this clip of Alan Dershowitz, and most people recognise that name. He was part of the wood later

part of the OJ defence team. It's not going to be easy, but this is a case where, as you all know, where everything turns on matters of degree and its obvious that the kid killed, because He believed that she wanted the man dead, but that's not never conviction that has to be very specific directions by PAMELA to the young man to kill, and if she in persuade a jury or cast some doubt in their minds as to whether maybe he didn't act on his own on the basis of some subtle cues she may have given, but maybe she misunderstood and misinterpreted possible, read out, particularly when you combine that with the fact that these kids have been given deals and the actual killer has been given a plea bargain in the defence attorney. Can I thank and did a fairly effective job in to show how he would have in his interests to twist the truth and make it come out

in white were maybe a little greater hasn't. She undermine the first course of events by saying that we never discussed it. She never imagined. bills included. One though I think it's consistent for her to say, we never discussed it. Although the tape suggests something maybe a little bit different, we ever discussed it. Although we discuss the fact that you know I loved him, I wanted to be with you. He was a barrier to me being with you. I couldn't love two people. At the same time, she can take the position that we never had a specific Discussion about killing and yet cigarettes that there were discussions which could have led him as an impressively. A man too Honestly believe that she wanted him dead, but wrongly and in his issues, are as it s it never occurred to until after he was arrested.

she might even have a lawyer. I should have to backtrack of it well in the taper answer on that too, because on the tape she does seem to say that she knew it was going to happen in advance. She now says she was playing games. That was the weakest part of her otherwise fairly credible testimony. She seems quite sways it now. The prosecutor, of course, can turn that against her. Ladies gentlemen of the jury, if this woman has persuaded you, you can imagine how much more persuasive she would have been to this young impressionable boy. I mean our dershowitz kind of sums it up right. He talks about I'm testimony which we ve got some clip several play and testimony was good, really good. I mean free twenty two twenty three years old. However, she was at the time She was extremely well coached. She came really well very well, and you hear talking about some of the four tactics that the defence would use and its Scully that

when PAM admits to the sex right. She admits the affair, the actual in crash with billy, but what she will not admit to is telling billy to kill gray right. so the whole defence is basically that Billy was in love with her, did this on his own yeah. He did this, so he could have her for himself right, but that she was not control Being hammered telling him to do this, that he just took it that way that he had to do it now the trial, we lasted fourteen days, yeah affair. In today's standard at it was a really fast. For I mean fur is media, circus and everything that went around it. It wasn't one of these trials that dragged on you know for months and months what I I is you know. Billy's testimony was probably riveting right because we're played some of it, but he actually

it's down in the middle. court room before the jury, niels down and actually is showing them what he did that night, and that's when he says you knocked a hammer back pointed the guy his head said: oh god, please forgive me and then I pulled the trigger well it's here a little bit from pan, because we talked about pan,

why? Yes, yes, I did. What kind of the feelings I set out to have an affair with him, but I did do that at Utah june thirteen nineteen- I knew about her yes barricade in order to train here I told her that I had known about it beforehand, which was a fabrication and that you want over the years. Yes, I do testify c appears to fully enjoy the game and gave him all sorts of information prior. Yes, as you sit here today, you know the game please. On june fourth and june fifteenth income tax, they paid you wrong. Yes, so now testify before the jury was the day your post appears. I was in the derby for the first time in years, and you had anything to do with her. I didn't tell her that I had something to do with it. I told her that I had known about it. My plan was originally when the day started to get more information from her by the time the day was over. She had told me that she was scared and that she was going to go to the police. She was able to fill, got it right and I'm on almost financially and he had told me that she was going to the police and she was going to tell them that we meaning she and I knew about the murder beforehand and of course I automatically panicked, because I didn't want her to do that. So my intention from there on out was to try and talk her out of going to the police. Why did you go to the extreme and the whole mess up? Why did you go to the police and say: hey you know I just? Oh my god, don't believe this kid was going to be getting really embarrassed about my fare. Please don't tell anybody about it, but now you can solve the murder of your husband because the world I was listening to it, but you didn't do the correct, because I was scared. I was afraid- and I had heard rumors, that I was going to be arrested and I was afraid yes, so I hate them.

Acted the audio so bad, but I think it necessary, to hear her testify because, like we talked about she, comes off, pretty good yeah she's, actually pretty pretty drawing of their of what would you say I mean she's even tell them, One point you know when they try to interrupt her hold on I'm almost finished you gotta remember she's twenty two right. I mean this is up for murder. A twenty two And she's hamlet really extremely well. I think at that age be pissed. In my garage animals yeah- he was to work rambles. I do, but I want to make too much out of it by when you hear that she really does come off as. Convincing now, she's too two. Say that yeah I could she said, These things on the tape right.

But now she's trying to backtrack and say well the reason I said them was because I was trying to get her trust. I was trying to get information out of her, and I just you know the jury not gonna. By that

Everyone screaming no one's doing anything and a policeman came down the stairs. He said because why didn't set out to have an affair with him, but I did perhaps was suggested by the kinky video movie, nine and a half weeks. Yes, no, I think he's having a problem remembering where reality began in the movie stop bill flynn said he was hooked, but that it was she who bought the bullets and hatched a plot that killed her husband. Do you want the stereotypes and then decided to kill your house broke out? I want the jury to understand the truth. The truth is I dunno why they'll find crying? I can just come in here and give my testimony. So, even as you say today, you still have no idea of those that have not. I didn't say. I had no idea, but I don't know specifically what he did probably because he thought we could be together.

This one here you can really get a feeling how well compose she is. I think, yeah dammit she's, not stammering. I mean she has an answer for every question for again I know I'm harping on it for twenty two years old and maybe there's big out there saying: will she should she's twenty two? That's that's a enough educated and she should be able to do this. But you been in. Involved in a lot of trials and depositions, and things like that, it's not right this nor reckoning in any normally don't have that type of composure sped if your life is on the line, and if you go to the prison for your life, if you think that she would The moral of more rattled and she's, not here And again, she is facing life in prison, the teenagers testifying against her because they ve all seen the plea, bargains yeah, you know and I think

Dershowitz even talked about it in his case about Thank you, and I may we have covered it on other episodes where you when you a plea bargain sometime the jury looks at that as guilt, a formal guilt or that the people there get get in the plea bargains are turning somebody else, so they can get off with, with a lighter, sends Sometimes it's it's looked at the perception of the other is that jury, didn't see it that way now we know that the rest of the world at sea that way either now I think the public perception was completely against pan. Yes, I don't know, there's much question about that, and and again people watch this trial, unlike my trials are all trials before this they didn't, just get to see what the media was feeding them

got to see the inner workings of our you'll trial the evidence. The testimony mean they got to see it and there is a lot of people that watched it- probably gambled, Gavin gavel and oh you know they did, and I mean in in new family argues to this day. that she sitting in prison because the media was the one that actually convicted so the fourteen day trials over the jury. Back, they find it guilty on march twenty second, ninety, ninety one accomplice, Degree: murder, conspiracy, to commit murder and witness tampering. she could have been charged with capital murder, even though we know she then pulled the trigger, but prosecution decide against that was ultimately sentenced to life in prison without the possibility for pearl so

I mean say, shorter. The death sentence in that as much as you can get took gibbs. Everybody does prison time right, except for one person. And that's cecilia that's in large part to her due to her. cooperation with the wire having ever foam wherein the the body wire and getting all this evident right to billy flan, is sentenced to life in prison. For second degree, murder Is eligible for parole, after forty years but he only has a twelve year. Men among citizens. Oh, no, it's a little strange right. A lot of that depends on whether he be His behaviour imprison flynn was a real, a model prisoner at his g d cause you gotta, remember the kid was fifteen years already didn't finish high school right, so you get

G d, n wally's in prison he was like tricia, and did a lot of charity work now, two thousand seven he'd been in and for sixteen years he tried to get his sentence reduced and this mark family definitely oppose that they did not want him out in that ultimately denied, but what they did who is they reduced his early, parole eligibility date to twenty five years. That would make him me Seeing him eligible for prawn, two thousand fifteen, Ultimately, he was paroled march, twelve, two thousand and fifteen although he didn't get out of prison until june. I think it was the first week of june this when they finally released on, but is things about this out. I want to play so. First, I've got billy flan in his actual role hearing.

I just wanted to take this time, to say that I will always feel terrible about what happened twenty five years ago. People will not change that. The regret in responsibility, I feel, are a part of me not conditional upon where I reside and the administration at the ball. The criminal facility have been working very closely with me to help make the transition back into society, and I feel that I am ready, so that was billy. He was actually on the phone. He added they had to call him or he had to call out how work, but in I have a clip I want to play in. This is Greg's brother, who was actually in attendance at Billy's, parole, hearing No matter how hard we fight, no one can change what happened that night,

and no one can bring great back because you decided to take his life away. I just hope you have learned something from this epoch mistake. I hope you don't fall into the media. Circus depends is created from all this when you are free. you served your time for the most part very privately and quietly, and I respect that because we as a family do not need to keep living this over and over again. Yeah me, I guess for me that would be a very tough situation, but Greg's bro, showed a lotta grey. I guess I would call it so PETE randall Gibbs also got life in prison. Second degree: murder. pretty much the same exact sentences. Billy got forty in forty years, twelve years deferred was eligible for parole in two thousand and eighteen, but he so got his sentence reduced? Two thousand and nine and was also

we paroled in two thousand fifty. Now he got the a lifetime pearls, though, to anything they would do to violate parole We send them back to prison immediately. Yes, fur what they did yeah for, however long could be years or life or life. I don't. It just depends on the nature of the crime, yeah, so J R, he got life in prison as an accomplice to second degree he was eligible for parole. Thirty years twelve year suspended, so he was I was born two thousand eight again. got reduced by three years as well and he was paroled and two thousand five. Raymond fowler, if you remember he was one of the ones at waited in the car he was sent. The thirty years for

spare seed, a murder and a template attempted burglary. was eligible for parole after fifteen years. Fowler got out two thousand three, He was one gibbs that actually violate, does parole and had to go back the very next year. Two thousand four, but not have been much of a violation of the pearl, because he gap roared again in two thousand five, so he only Then another year in an prison now I do want to say one last thing and that's it Cecilia appears upon, Lee. She got quite a bit of money for the screen rights to her, or because remember she didn't spend time in jail and I'm not which movie it was cause ever see, there's been an and some we didn't talk about been a number of movies made about the panels. marked story

we did mention the one with the cold kid men was another one made pretty soon after this all happened that start Helen hot. So much. Which one of these was, but she got. She got a pretty good junker chukka chain. so another one thing about pam is she's not been quite right. She serving life in prison, she's tons of interviews. She stopped, contains or innocence. So, let's hear from pan, Hi for people to understand that really means life, the very serious sentence and, to me honestly, I think it's worse than the death penalty, it is because the even the death penalty as an end thing forgiven, is a good thing, but why is there no forgiveness. For me, I think so psychological e I didn't want it feel worse simple in any way for this horrible crime, but now I've come to a place where I know that my

choices and my back. Decisions contributed to what happened and contributed to greg's death can see why people hate me. I have no problem understanding why people hate me, because of everything I've been fed. But it's just it's just not true If I actually had committed this martyr and was guilty that I would probably be released, because of maintaining my innocence and will continue to do so again only punished, for that I think about being free. Every single day, every day, I definitely dream about it, but I think about it every day and theirs,

honestly some days where I say to myself: oh my god. What if I really never get out of here, you know what, if I die in here- and I want you sometimes you just tell the truth. I mean it's he's out it's over for him and I will tell the truth, but I know that he can't and that he won't so really. I don't have very much to say to him because he's not if he tells the truth has plea. Bargain is no good anymore.

That's how it goes. It's based on truth, his truthful testimony self any. He says anything that contradicts anything he said earlier than his testimony was no longer truthful and there goes the deal. I would suggest that you dig deeper into the case if you really want to know more about it, because to dig deeper that you dig you'll find more and more that I believe that you would start to question, because people and a lot of people, very smart people who have a lot of legal knowledge have gone through. The case have gone different to different aspects of the case and are equally as outraged as I am I dunno, I felt like we did a lot of research. Yeah know what she's referring to. Again it the telling any these situations, but There was a lot evidence against her. Now. Could could the boys have false

there, the mony to get the plea bargains? It's possible? Yes, Jeffrey stuff. Possible by I think, if you I think overwhelming majority of people believe that past are is where she supposed to be, but they're like said there are there people out there and there whole websites devoted to the fact that people believe she's innocent. You can make the argument She was railroaded we're not on the jury. So all we do is tell the story. Tell a story: you got there, make your own decision. And that's the story of PAMELA smart. So for my gimme stay say: fan, keep your own time taking.

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