The. welcome to crime fans. This is episode, four of the true crime, all the time podcast? I'm your host, ferguson, an For me, as my co host, my gibson a k, a gibbey, giving going on hey MIKE, has gone. It's good man, air gone rogan, so I've got to say this is episode for, but this is part two

the Dennis raider bt K story. So if you have not listened to episode, three you ve got us right now,. Stop everything you're doing! Stop the podcast back download episode three and start they're gonna. Do it Now most of you are familiar with Jeffrey Dahmer. We covered him in multiple episodes. What a twisted individual mind of a monster from iD is out with a fourth season about Jeffrey Dahmer, on mind of a monster doctor. Michelle war takes us through the story, starting with Dahmer, his childhood and the first murder all the way through his death. The podcast features jaw dropping never before heard audio recordings from the detectives, journalists and others close to the case to explore exactly what happened and how?

his killer came to be so. This sounds like a very deep dark and for me, anytime, you get never before heard audio from people very close to the case. Ahmet, listen to mind of a monster on apple podcasts, spotify or wherever you get your podcast. We talked about step the gibbs overwhelmed by the support. The numbers, the last two days dwarfed while we had last week, so it was it spent. Unbelievable, I'm really I'm blown away, how many people reaching out on social media, it's really starting to take off, and- and I just want to thank everybody who, downloaded and taken the time to listen to the show. I would ask, as I do every show that use subscribe this time, going to add. If you're on itunes I've been can do a lot of people and they do not know how to rate to show

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and gives us a little love to the show, doesn't cost you a thing and it's an easy way to support the show without shone out any doubt, before we get in to where we left flash last. I want give a shout out to a couple of people that did reach out that reached out through social media Brenda and ohio Annie in texas, both reached out through the facebook page said some great things about the show and then molly on twitter. I want to give her shut, as well as she said, some some really nice things about the show gibbs we were talking. We got a lot of stuff to get through raider such an nick mamma. We got five murders, but really two different incidents right. So for murders which were the terrors and one murder twas was catherine bright so

There were picking up in october of seventy four so this is about nine months after the otero murder. Six months give or take after the bright murder, which it ego is the I soon the local paper. but there in Wichita. And there's an employee named don granger It's an anonymous call call direct sam to the witch public library and gives dawn a specific book to look for so granger goes to the library finds the book. And inside the book is a letter. I'm in credit for the killings of the terror of family. and the letter also promises more victims. The police- had no doubt that

The letter was written by the killer, because there was some details inside the letter that only the killer, could have known. I thought it was is interesting. Gives it the that obviously we're talking about raider right. We know the killer is raider, but so ray addresses the letter to these secret witness programme. I am not sure what that but it was I guess it was something that people could pass information to the police through the newspaper and remain anonymous, so he must have known about it and that's how he addressed it. one thing that please wanted. Is there the wichita eagle to not publish the m the contents of the letter basis, because they didn't want a whole bunch of people coming more than that and when a bunch of false confessions, which is something that would happen in a city,

you like that the problem is that then, reporter at arrival paper, the which taught son also received a copy of the letter and printed in December. Obviously cats out of the bag. At that point I did reed a couple of the an exit, from the ladder and one thing you when I talk about low bit is we hit on it touched on it in first steps are a little bit find a lot of similarities between dennis her and the zodiac, and I know it haven't covered zodiac. We probably will at some point and I dont know how much you know about the zodiac but I've you have everything? I've read all the grace smith books, which some people say are ball but there's just a lot of similarity between the two, because one thing that rate or does is he

intentionally. In these letters me there was a lot of words and has a grammatical errors when were the dates of the zodiac killer. Yasser when that occur, zodiac started in the sixties. There will I do read somewhere in the research that that I did on raider that I don't think ever admitted this, but there was an assumption that you know he was running himself. Some why, after the the zodiac when it came to this committee, cation and yeah. There's gonna be lot more right that we're to talk about, but I think it's, I think he problem. We did because just even look now in some of the confessions- You are the first segment know you He talks about you use. The word similar serial killer quite frequently, this is

a serial killer does, but the only reason you know that is because he's followed or researched some for him. The bill, say something that for him say things like. Is you know it? these mention. You know Two murders talking about his hit kit in is in a project list, and things like that. So I do believe it. I don't know who was a zodiac but he's duffy some found, somebody that he idolizes in trying to be similar, but in his down so can fantasy way well, yeah, so What would be the reason for reaching out to the cops or the pay there's. Only one reason is because, you want to revel in taking credit for these hey. Crimes that you ve committed right, if not You just stay silent, surfing faint yeah. you don't want to get caught. Don't we?

Do you want certain? No notoriety right thing. We're here, read the letter and took to preface it you at this point apparently there's three people that the police must have had in custody. They were looking out for the o murders, because He says I. I write this to you for the sake of the taxpayer as well. Your time, those dude you having custody, are just talking to get public, eighty, four, the o terror murders. They know thing at all by myself with no one's help there has, no talk either. Let's put this straight, there was a lot of grammatical air but he left it s, often deeds and I said it that way on purpose just to be authentic, but he goes on to provide details of the crimes in the crime scenes that

Nobody else could have known and then he goes on to say: I'm sorry this happened to society They are the ones who suffer the most it huh to control myself you probably call me psychotic with sexual. Perversion. Hang up. Well, no shit. He has sexual perversion hang up. The latter didn't say that, but I added it when Monster enter my brain. I will never know, but here it to stay. How does one cure himself if you ask for help that you have killed or people they will laugh or hit the panic button and call the cops. I can't stop it, so the monster goes on in for me as well as society society can thankful that there are ways for people like me to release. myself at time by dreams of some

victims being torture and being mine it a complicated game. My friend of the monster play putting victim, number down, follow them checking up on them waiting in the dark waiting waiting. The pressure is great, And sometimes he run the gain to his liking. Maybe you can stop him. I can't he is already chosen his next victim or victims. I don't, who they are yet the next day after I read the paper I will know, but it too late. Good luck, hunting, yours truly he'll to leave. There was a little hard to read just because the errors, but I tried to read it as it was presented, grammar wise than was like. I wrote it yeah yeah, exactly

I made one of my english grammar. Sometimes folks sometimes Only only why DR driving through ill annoys yeah, that's a great state, the greeks native village, noise for an extorted illinois. So the letters unsigned air, but it does contain a postscript. so. I went to read that too. says p s, since sex crime most do not change their ammo or by nature cannot do so will not change mine, the code word for me will be buying them. Torture them kill them. Bt Kay you see he added again. They will on the next victim. So my We went through a whole episode talking about dennis raider bt k, but we didn't we

ever did say what it stood for, and there was a reason for that, because we never got to that point right, we know, At that point, in in time in it this letter was the was the first time that the bt k was mentioned and I think it's kind of strange that he gives it to himself. He sees develop is on calling are some of the people there. Examined the letter or some things that were thought about the letter were that This person was pre Bobby. You have somewhat educated and was really a poor attempt at a look like they had a bad grip on awning. is right and they were trying to deceive or make themselves look dumber than they really were big you. The analysis goes on to say anything.

You'll see this in in zodiac as well. I've read a lot of the zodiac letters, so raider had written, he has no problem with words like psychotic perversion, complicated. But he can't spell summer really easy words zodiac very similar in some of his letters where he would have some of the more complicated words. He'd have no problem with, but the easy ones he would miss bow, and I think it similar done on purpose to try to confuse So I think we get in to toper of seventy four ride. He d had made his last kill in april of seventy four since a letter in october of seventy four rate next victim would not come until march. team of nineteen seventy seven, so you take The three or hide is from killing. My question is why what

What is he doing during this time and how can? he go three year. Without killing anyone? and satisfying his. What we know to be sexual addiction that is attached to torture ash murder giving. What's your answer to that? but I mean we know that he didn t best of our knowledge. We know that nothing occurred during those periods of time, because one there was no murders on record in that city daddy to perform in, and we know that even hear somebody that likes to take credit. He wants to notoriety of it in he's not. There was something I did you know even Linda neighbouring towns city state. He somehow that would have taken a credit for big because he does, he does do that right. At some point he does try to take

credit for murders that he didn't even do writes me. That's why I think if we actually actually did reform one, he would make people were aware of it. I greece. I agree. I I don't know what he was. One is a scam, You know how he said that demon, yet so couple of the mean there's a couple of things we know number one he's working it ain t t during this whole. at a time you know we laid out his job history and the first steps number two by his own admission, he never stopped trolling and stocking. So you know he's doing that during this three year period. question is: why doesn't the act upon it? We don't know the answer, but we're posed the question he at this time is attending wichita state university. The other thing that is His first child is born in seventy five. Those are some factors that could

played into it? I gotta think the the the child being born first child in seventy five probably plays into it Cause could be the biggest factor, maybe it softens sum up for puts that demon and on the back porch for awhile. as we know, is a very short period of time, for it comes to the forefront again. Well, I mean you- and I both know what it's like to have your child those. years are tough accident doesn't get that much easier, but by the way, it also, by this feeling ever have you know it is not the end and might you might be tapping into some in their first child yeah? You might, tapping into something there where he was in a stir. of mind. Where he did, feel that maybe the urge wasn't is strong. Maybe he can control it. I'm not sure

But I think it's interesting to bring up I think it's interesting- you know a lot of serial killers and were I mean this a three year period for him is actually the small, because As we go on we're gonna see, he's gonna have latin he's gonna, have a lot longer periods of time, That is just not what I'm used to seeing with most serial killers. You know They can go that long and put the deed. and ass. He called it a bay for that long appeared a time, but let so let's get to the next murder. march seventeen nineteen seventy seven. As we said, raider decide for whatever reason that you it I'm fur, another murder been trolling and what I had read it is he had been trolling, one particular neighbourhood pretty heavily and

He had several women in this neighbourhood as projects. he had met a woman named share all at a bar that he found quite interesting. And sure happened to be running a house with another woman- and they were having some parties back in these days and once rate or found out where she lived- He decided that that was gonna, be his next project for sure so share all and her friends there near they had parties ray comes round and for only for sharing and friends the day that raider comes there, not home, so share always ay, and I dont know shells last name because I never read it, but I have to believe she's the luckiest people ever absolutely so writer, you know he finds out nobody's home trolling down the street

and he runs into this five year. Old boy named Steve referred and He develops a writer develops this ruse and what he does, pulls out a photo. of his own wife and son. Any ass this little boy, if he knows who they are This this is worries. Plane is another. fantasy rural right or retain anita. A private detective skies got a lot of fantasies. Man talks about you know you know and as always posts murder interviews. You know he talks about how he the fantasy that he thinks I was it was random, but he thinks about the person he lies in bed at night. He thinks about it. He thinks about what is do how we gonna do it from me getting to end and goes over it and over again, every night, every night until finally decides to to make reality on those

Sally various easy says: he's gonna go out there! he's gonna, be a private detective. Like you said he runs into this you're a boy, any whips out some photos. Any tarsus a charade, and I'm gonna go from there yet next five murders, because a time we won't go into two may details because we're gonna hear rate or talk about em right. I've got raider in his own words talking about em, but in a nutshell, evolves This kid home knox. The door, as you said, posing as as, unlike some type of detective person and the kid let him in the house probably thinking this is enough. already figure. I need to listen to him and there three children, the home altogether, raider turns out, the tv lowers the blinds and this is when sure by an the mother

comes into the room, she's inner bathrobe and she wants to know what the hell's goin on raiders got his hit kid with the who, kid he's, got a gun, so use the guy as he did. You know, yo terror owes to control the situation, but this one is a little different because might from what I read he made intentions, pretty clear right from the beginning to show so surely twenty four years old. and he makes his intentions pretty clear. That he's gonna bind her and his way with their right right up front. He says you know We get undressed, I'm gonna tie up. I have sexual fantasies the incorrect. She says, I'm, like you know it's alright. If I use the restroom first, basically, she acts like okay. Let's get this one what what strangers he doesn't raper he tells or he's goin to, but he doesn't and she ends up throwing up at some point and he gives smoke and he gets her. A glass of water is

This, though I worried back, you know he always talks about how they get how these victims are absurd or not feeling good and he tries to accompany them. That's us! This is really civic rights really is minutes. remember, we play way when we the terror of sound bit by he talks about. I tried to comfort. father by putting a pillow under him. He's he's really he goes out of his way to act. Like he's, hang helping the people and that's that's, how we act this surely diane and others as aggies he's giving them comfort we actually believes is giving them come for before he decides to do Whatever he's gonna do Tom right. I did. I didn't mention it, but he's got he heard the kids into the bathroom before this discos on forgot to mention that But ultimately you know he he does tire up. He does paper, but he d

strangler to death with a cord which is based his ammo and he Ask your bates and leave seamen on her pants he's which her later found next her body now one I did read is that he was gone. the killed the children think he stated that It was only because it the telephone started ringing. I threw him off and caused him to leave before he before he could kill the children yeah, and I think she kind of told him that you know her, her heart banner, dad or somebody was gonna was, was. The call any minute in it. If they did Hear from her they would worrying come over because of the kids. So I think that that that shook them up

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words of the air. The shirt by and murder as before, land was actually on now and she was completely wrong there was actually someone across from Dylan's was potential party. It was called project green. I think I had project numbers and signs with and that particular day I drove the dillons parked in the parking lot watch this particular residence and then got out of the car and walked over to it. It's probably the police report address. I don't remember the address now, not nobody, nobody answered. So I was all feet up, so I just started going through the neighborhood. I visited the neighborhood before I kind of knew a little bit of the layout of the neighborhood up been through the back alleys. Numerous and certain people live

While I was walking down hydraulic met, a young asked him to be decent pictures of the russ. I guess loose as you call it and feel it out so I'll work. Even when I went to another address and knock on the door, nobody open the door, so I just noticed where he went in with the house and we went from there all these projects, these sexual fantasies, also the casual hits

my world is like building projects, it's art, and why did you have these potential gets? Was this ratify some sexual interest? Yes, sir, I had there, I had a lot of them, so it's just one didn't work out and just moved to another one. So I'm to understand that, then, on the seventeenth of march nineteen, seventy seven- you saw this little boy go into a residence and he tried another sermon. Was there you tried another residence? No one was there. I went to the residence with rolling boil and I watched I watched where he went what happened after I tried this one's the residents. Nobody came to the door, I went to his house where he went in knock on the door and told him I was a private detective, showed him a picture that I had just showed the boy and asked him if they could id the picture and at the time I had the gun here and I just kind of forced myself and I just walked in off the boardwalk in an the visible what gun with his three fifty seven magnum. So you only have one gun. Yes, sir. What happened, but I told this is the plan that I had a problem with sexual fantasies, that it was meant to tie her up and I might have to tie the kids up and she would cooperate with us operate the time we went back. She was extremely nervous. I think she even smoked a cigarette, and then we went back to one of the back back areas of the porch explained to her that I'd done this before, and I think she would at that point in time think she was sick. She had a night robe on and I think I remember ratios she had been sick, like I think she came out of the bedroom when I went in the house so anyway we went back to the her bedroom and proceeded to tie the kids up, started crying and got real upset. So I said oh, this is not going to work, so we moved them to the bathroom she dumped me and then I tied the door shut. We bought some toys and blankets and odds and ends and there for the kids like most couples, a good idea. We tried one of the bathroom door shut, so they couldn't open it and we shove she went back and helped me show the bed up against the other bathroom door, and then I proceeded to tie her up. She got sick, fear of god or a glass of water comfort or a little bit, and then I wouldn't have tied it up and then the black bag overhead strangled her, or was this a plastic bag also near surf? I think it was, but I could be wrong in that it was something I'm sure it was a plastic bag. You see the bag overhead and strangled. What did you strangle her with? I actually think on that I had tied tighter legs to the bed post and worked up with rope all the way up and then, when I had leftover, I looked over him to use this rope strangled. Yes, I think I think it's the same one, that a tighter body with what happened while the kids were really banging on the door and holler screaming, and then the telephone rang, and they had talked about earlier- that the neighbors going to check on them. So I cleaned everything up real, quick like and got out of there left and went back in the car said Clinton. Well, I mean, but my stuff, I had a briefcase whatever I have laying around the ropes tape cords through that in their mind, know whatever that I had that I brought in a house that you brought that to the bride residents. Also, now there is some island. I think it was the basic stuff that I don't remember, bringing total stuff like I did to some of the others. The extent that you had prepared yeah like yes like oh my get fit alright, sir. You left the fbi and residents had you parked your vehicle near your cell in the same parking lot there villains at the hydraulic and the harry, lincoln, lincoln, lincoln, lincoln and hydraulic

fascinated by the way that he can wreak things with such we know what the right word is, but his demeanor there's just business cole There's no motion at all, but a couple of things: I took away from this giving I went to see what you thought was thing. Yo hasty states that This was unusual because, via was not a project in this Random- and it was very unusual for his ammo, because he normally stopped victims for quite some period a time he had been stocking somebody, but that didn't work out. So I think that's why the violin murder happened. The way that it than it did beginning talks about bring his head kid and he talks about that. Basically, all of this is designed to satisfy his sadistic sexual urges. The other thing and lasting

keeps coming up to me is this dylan's he's always parkers carts dylan's yeah, I don't know that is you know he mentioned said that a lot yeah, maybe somebody from from the to tar area will write in to the show and tell us what dylan's is I'm out of its a department store. So there part of the embryo is the same, but the other part was very random, which was so we ve got to get moving again. We're gonna get on two december of nineteen. Seventy seven, so bout. Nine months later, disappoint raider is stated on a twenty five year old woman named Nancy fox he's been star, in her from her workplace, back residents knows Her days or like and so on the evening of december eight he breaks into her duplex. He cut Phone line, which is as part of his emotion in previous murders

in our house and he's waiting for her to come home from evening, job which is at a jewelry store. So again, this one's kind of like the bright where he breaks and he's waiting for the woman to come back, and this is the one that he actually went to her work a few times and checked her out and kind of stalked her at her work as well the joke, that was interest him back to the comment that I made about violin being so random. I mean I, I don't think He just saw normally saw people, and follow home I mean he did a lot of stocking of. On two different people, but when he locked in on somebody, I think he really did his homework. Needs you lived alone. She walks the door apparent, The initial confrontation takes place in the kitchen he's got his he's got a gun.

brings the guns hip kid very similar to the other when he states too. nancy that he has a sexual issue. He knew the tyre rob and he's gonna raper, so that we have this. Some are divine in that respect, Nancy aren t. You know me a few snipe comments, but she doesn't fight back she's ordered into the bedroom, and raider ties to the bed after she takes her clothes off, and he undresses himself, which As far as I know, I had not read he had done that before. and maybe I'm wrong. Gib tell me if I'm wrong, but I never read where he was getting naked himself in these other in canada for some something new for him so he's undressed he's got her tied to the bed. He's got her thinking that he's gonna raper. That's what he's told her and

at this point he tells her who he really is tells her that he's the same person they killed tarots and he strangled her to death with a a ligature cord, hyper ligature again, he masturbates any leaf seamen on and gown that ultimately found next to her body, not much to this one very similar in some respects too bright. and very similar in some respects, and the interesting thing about this one is the next day as he's reporting to work at eighty t, leaving the office and in the company van and re, stops at a phone booth down the street. He calls the plea- dispatcher. He says. What's on the following

already very little hard to hear, but he basically says you'll find a homicide at your neck, she's address, and then he gives her name. Nancy Fox. again, the audio not great, but I want to play it because I to me it's it's very interesting to hear his voice yes and I'm gonna go back to zodiac because This is again something that the zodiac did zodiac, kill somebody drive yo some ways and then make a phone call, so apparently, raider, leaves the phone dangling, but please go to the residents that he says the goat They find Nancy's body comes out of this- is that that call that a recording, then surely is

played over and over in wichita media. No one in raiders life, not as co workers, family there's nobody. That's able to recognize the voice, which I guess I don't blame that it was really hard to hear. It didn't sound to me exactly like the other clips that we've been playing so so they they play this clip and the recording from nineteen seventy seven when they played it, but then weapon I mean I know, it's no. Seventy seven upset its december. So maybe seventy seven in seventy, eight. Ok, is what I'm assuming. Unless you know some different because day, He does this the next day, so they got right. They got the tapes are authorized about round. The time is right that worry. Seventy eight was when they made public public here you again, we have them.

raiders own words of of what occurred during the nancy fox murder. So let's hear that.

The fox was another one of the projects. When I was trolling the area I noticed for the one in the house, one night, sometimes over in anyway, put her down as a potential victim. Let me ask you one thing: raider, you use that from when you were trolling the air. What do you mean by stalking or trolling? So you were not working in any form or fashion. Well, I don't know if you read much about serial killers, they go through what they call the different phases. That's one of the phases I go through as a as a trolling stage, you're late, basically you're looking for a victim at that time and that you could be trolling for months or years, but once you lock in on a certain person, he becomes stalking and that might be several of them. But you really only on that person. They basically become the that's. That's the victim, that's the hard! No! No! I wasn't working sir. No. This was no. This was off off off my hours. Alright, so you basically identified that the boss is one of your projects. What happened at first, she was spotted, and then I did a little homework. I dropped by wants to check the mailbox to see what her name was found out where she worked stop by there once Helzberg kind of sized up by the more I knew about a person, the more I felt comfortable with it. So I did that a couple of times and then I just selected tonight, which was just the corn. I try it and it worked out. Can you tell me what you did on the night of December eight nineteen, seventy something about two or three blocks away apartment car and wanted that residents knocked at the knock at the door. First, make sure see if anybody's in there cause. I knew she arrive home at a particular time from where she worked. Nobody answered the door, so I went around the back the house at the phone lines. I could tell that there wasn't anybody in the north apartment broke in and waited for her to come home in the kitchen. Alright, did she come home? Yes, she did what confronted her and told her. There was a problem, sexual problems that I would have to Tyra.

With her. She was a little upset

after a while she smoked a cigarette while the war was supposed to arrive with your purse identifying some stuff. She finally said: well, let's get this over with and go paula, please I said. Ok and she said, can I go to the bathroom? I said yes, she went to the bathroom came. I told her when she cannot make sure that she was undressed when she came out. I handcuffed her and really hammer the serps and country out of handcuffs. Yes, sir, what happened had her handcuffed her had to lay on the bed and then I tied her feet and then I I was also undressed to a certain degree, and then I got on top of her and reached out to eat either either feet retired or not tired. Anyway, I took, I think I had a belt. I took the belt and then strangled her with a belt at that time. All right after you get strangled for what happened after I strangled with abella, took the belt off and retire them with pantyhose real tight, remove the handcuffs and tie those with with Annie holmes, can't remember the colors right now, I think, maybe retire feed what they had, or they were prioritized her feet were at that time. Masturbating or had you had sexual relations with her now for know why colorado was, but I did not see you masturbate, then what did you do? I dressed and then went through the house took symbol for personal items. Then I clean the house up with your mic, checked everything and then left you know pretty.

Resting here gibbey because he goes anderson. He goes into some detail about his stocking. Controlling and really give some flavour to that. I think he definitely amigos, like you said talks about the handcuffing her and then tying her feet and using the belt and fanny hill. I mean he is really very detailed about that night,

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see use code new to get ten percent off. Your first purges code, new maximum discount value of fifty dollars offer ends june thirtieth twenty twenty three c turn. That etsy dot com slashed terms at sea has it shop at sea. Add com. so an early. Seventy eight new, If you had already talked about the fact that the recording of the call rate or made to the police has gone out to the. I'll through the media, an raider since a postcard with some type, a poem two, the which tie ego when they receive it, they don't really rare. Ignite is that it has any significance to it that won't, happen until some time later postcards. By a letter, though, it's taken very seriously? because in this letter writer takes responsibility for this. terror, murders,

surely via an Nancy fox us what he calls the seventh victim which I later seem to be catherine bright, but also in this letter again he talk about wanting to be called bt k, but this The other significance of this letter is that it's the first time that factor axes mention factor acts will Come this mysterious force. I think that helped about later on in life dead behind the reason for his need to kill people. I mean purse I think it's just made a bullshit, but guys right got sexual sadistic vein see type urge and he's just calling a factor ex remain Is there something else to enter? Where do you think he? I think it's is sir,

not a word ferrara crazy right now me, It's it's a mysterious sounding name right. I think that's all! It is the one thing that this letter does. Is it really forces the wichita police depart two decision, decision is, is whether or not or how much information they're gonna, give out to the public. Ultimately, what they decide is at their pub We gonna announce that wichita Has an unknown serial killer on the loose and citizens they're, going to urge all citizens to be careful about locking doors and You can imagine what kind of panic this creates it base equally. So this is what we said: nineteen seventy eight the right create, a whole generation of women, going up in that area. Looking over their shoulder, it was said, that people were checking their there.

Dial tone on their phones. Every time they came home because That was something that had been mentioned. Parted his m, o it struck fear the city of wichita, and I would guess problem wider radius than that as well? So let's talk about the next victim in and that's: when Williams, did you want sex on my did. I wanted is just found this interesting that you know this time? We know that the chief goes on air, and this is the first time that they're trying in a new way to try to reach out to BT gay the chief goes on the air, and this is the first time that they use then it was new, was called subliminal, imaging and the chief, his forensics signs experts, they two frames

spices, and you know it has some words in an image thirty years ago. This was, the new science and they wanted to get that image burned into his brain as what they were then for and us what they do is they took the words now call the chief and right below it. They put a pitcher of glasses that were upside down or the save the similar to the same sketch that he drew on the letter when he described the nancy fox murder so that they use this image. we see if that will get him to call in and talk to, the chief. Of course it didn't. We Like the chief said you know back, then it was thought that it would. They had some credit in that work and course, thirty years later now eating. When he talks about a says yeah, I was kind of ridiculous, but back then you know they know any better than they thought that if we really were so worried,

putting this out through the m television station they were. They were They they they, they did a on air tv segment and about forty forty seconds then within ten I can to ten or fifteen. can say ram too quick frames why they were by the chief has been interviewed, Of course, you have to slow it down fifty. On our times like it remember, have how much they had slowed down frame, but where you can't see it with the naked eye right there, you got it, that's what makes a subliminal right right so, but yeah, it actually says now call the chief and that's got the pair of the glasses upside down sighing My one question about that is why, with only get the zodiac shit. Now I'm saying zodiac dammit it moreover, that only get BT k to call? Why wouldn't

everybody sittin in their house say I need to call the chief. I don't know why I need to call the chief, but for some reason I do I got all the chief about some glasses. but it is an interesting story of something they tried. At least they are right. The other trying so I do want to tell the story about in william drew quick. I know we ve got to to kind of hurry little bit, so April of of seventy nine rate or break to that the home of Anna Williams, she sixty years old, her husband had just died. Basically plan the same game. Where he's breakin in he's, gonna wait for him to come home. so he stalked her. You know for some time but ever comes home and So raider, you know steals a few things. Annie leaves disappointed in june, so roughly cup months later Anna gets a package in the mail with a poem and the time

the poem is oh anna. Why didn't you appear in which, it is a drawing of what raider had intended to do to her and a few. The things that he had taken from her house in the next day, a very similar pack. rise at the studios of the one when the local tv stations there in Wichita I thought that was a very interesting story and is not a while she's a victim because she was so scared that she to hell out a wichita. I mean as quick as she could and I don't blame, or I would have to the other interesting thing about this particular incident is that it's basically the last time that the plan these were the media would receive any type of communication from raider for about twitter five years.

That's a long time now one exception to that There was a letter that was was received in nineteen eighty eight by the police by day, never officially acknowledged that that it was from bt kay the letter. Basically. Claimed responsibility for some murders. I think it was three family three members of a family in Wichita, but it was signed, bt, gay and it wouldn't be until two thousand and five that the police would be able to prove that raider had actually written that letter, because and jump and forward a little bit we all know how this ends somewhat, but they fly and a copy of the original letter in his possession. Rater would later state in comments that yo he did

commit this crime and- and I forget the name of the family and no starts with the nef, but I don't have it written down, so he did. He didn't commit the I bet he admired the work of the man that dead interesting, Even though, is not not one in the actual murder victims. We are going to get to it at another, actual murder victim, but we ve got it. six years. So it's not Until lamb, nineteen eighty five so again, We talked about. He had a three year. Hiatus now he's got a base a six year, hiatus again why we know that he's probably still trolling for victims still stocking projects. Is he also why the such an extended period of time. You know that We think that that I could shot down here was at this point. I think his kids were.

maybe around six and nine nick I could be off on the years. I was. Yes, the mating on the map there. Busy being a dad busy being a dad he's a husband bow. Now. It is very active in his local church he's gotten criminal record at this time he stole working, at the eighty t security company. other than this be areas of isa, busy guy with a job in a family and young kids. I don't know what else the reason would be I dont know. He holds off his factor x, will all that, even though I I think that's bullshit, That he made up but we'll call it factor, acts how. How is he holding mad at bay for us? two year period of time, We were satisfied. His factor x is fraud. Why, the man or his bright humming

yeah. I still. I gotta get a picture of this frog, like demon as well now we come to marine hedge. six years later, nineteen, eighty five- rain. Hedge is fifty three years old. Yet one of the things that so he didn't kill Anna Williams, but he was too two. She sixty three. Rien hedges fifty three and does seem, like? I don't know if he's picking older women at this point in time, or if it s just a coincidence that these too are little older than some of the the other victims, But marinas is also widow and what in a about marine is that term she's a neighbor mission right down the street yeah same street right down the street as the raiders come airy? She was

bribed. Is a petite friendly woman? She's got four Children. I think her husband had recently. ass raider and his wife paula, would sometimes take walks through the neighbourhood and they would waved marine, so I mean they knew each other. Unlike nine, Unlike my neighbors, I know any of my neighbors somebody else get desk I stuffed a man- and I tell you one point we were living in an era and right across the street gatty corner from us was a young family. And I remember you know that to this day you know we we we would talk to him or her. You know every now and then you know you out there cutting grass and stuff, and and one day. You know talking to him and he came home and get the grass roots asked after He was like a pepsi a beer out driver

and he came home and then he laughed after. I talk to her about to finish this grass and then the next day we found out that he went in You know he murdered his wife and one. Kids That was a scenario failing because you know You're somebody that you, you didn't know we're awhile, but she still said hey are you do I talked about the other, the local events in words and things like tat, and then you find out that you know what, often you know, murdered family and Well, you can say that you talk to murder, murderer personally get yeah thanks. right, because I worked with a guy that the business partners, the short period of time, hey, save, save some of these man we might, we might want to make whole episodes out of these. Did you ever know? You didn't never know

The thing that crags me up with use is you talkin about huber. You do realize we ve been downloaded and like twenty five countries in every state of the? U s right, That's a great voice by right, but we're talkin, like you know, just our neighbourhood mazzoni, so we're talking about marine hedge. Is this ah or is this because you one about dennis raider, a piece of shit. But to me He does seem like a very detail or any person, I dont know if you got dad or, if you think insult mouse gibbey. But to me for him to pick some body, the same street just doesn't make sense to me, it does but then it kind of does were new posts. right. You listen tom speak because it

about one scene locks in once. He factor acts locks on somebody. He can't let him go and he again to follow it through. So I'm guessing factor X, locked in honor and he had to follow through no matter. Why which Point when your dive into in a minute- but I mean he actually waited in the house for hours and hours and hours before he was able to to make his move I think you just made a great point in it So my question even though I still think he's a very detailed person. I think you right, I think he locks in and he gets here say it's on a project amusing, his term once he makes that fixation.

There's nothing to stop him right. I mean it's like Oreo cookies, the minute I know that there's oreo cookies in the pantry garrido, get me in Oreo cookie datum, an opera down kids in everything. If I had to get to the pantry to get that Oreo cookie now making I'm making jokes, and this is not a joking situation. Obviously marine hedges was was murdered. We're going to talk about it here in a minute, but we can joke, but still have some say the for the victims, which we do have for all these victims, no doubt absolutely, Let's get into this one a little bit and then again work we were here raider talk about in his own words, but so well, maybe not go into every detail because he he's going to quite a

like we said they knew each other lived on the same street, though the one thing about this. One is raider he was a ten, a boy scout camp outside, it to tar and he is that in may, He he had to do that because marine hedge lived on his street. But so he's outside a wichita, he leaves the camp. I assume he's there with his son, he's a boy scout leader. leaves the camp in the evening. Stating that he's gonna head ache, he's gotta go into town to get some for this head ache. He really Does this elaborate very, very elaborate plan of parking his car in the city, and he by some beer, he doesn't drink the Your buddies swishing it around his mouth and he's put cast. Bidding it out all over his clothes just so

he would smell like he had been drinking. He calls a cab, tending to be drunk and he has the driver, take him to a park. Impart city He tells the driver that he's gonna walk it off. You know I gotta walk it off before I go home, the wife's going to be mad at me, but the park backs up to the back yard of marine hedges property cuts phone line, the prize open, her door turns out. He actually, I think he on this when he thinks she's home right. He does, and maybe is that what you're talking about where he was some was waiting. Busy waiting after he gets in and finds out the nobody's home. Yeah? Maybe breaks in relies issues. there. So he goes he no. He highs back in the bedroom and then, of course it sure. As the audio was talk about us,

she comes on what a male visitor for a while all the outlets right. This is the one where she comes home with the mail from the end, still waits and wait and wait until he leaves and then course he makes his so the man leaves around. I don't know sometimes early morning. I guess. That's when raider been hiding in the closet. This whole time. He comes out of the closet turns on the light jumps on marine in the bed and basic he chose her to death. Think this the one where he actually physically choked her with his hands. If our yeah is a you know and another new thing for him right. I now he's manually in her and naso he does that where he takes takes close off some new things, yeah and the others here a bunch of new wrinkles to this one. No. What fantasy This fulfilled

He dragged her body out to the car puts it in our own trunk drives too his own church. Where he's personally, I don't know what he is degenerate: I know at some point is elected president of the congress. asian all summer other he to the church he's very trusted because he has keys to the church He takes her body down into the basement, yeah europe white with a bunch of bondage position, takes pictures of that. with his polaroid camera that assuming that ill used those polaroids later up industry house in his back yard? I guess I did answer my question right, whereas what part of it Fantasy doesn't play the pie it plays, is in some of the other murders he masturbates the scene in the one. He takes the buyer

to another location. as you said, poses earned indifferent types of bondage poses or or whatever it is, takes photographs he's gonna use and again I mean I'm doing air quote you can't see him Use at a later date, and then basically he'd just fine. the place and the ditch few miles outside a park city and in dumb her body and really it's not like. He digs a ditch and covers it up, or you know, digs a big hole in and covers her up. He just dumps her body yeah. Observed puts a brush on tyre. Again, it is a new here's. A new twisted is project right. I mean this is their step in his projects and now he's taken a body outside taken too the site and then putting back and chalk and in, driving it again to somewhere else to two digit I mean raising, though the risk of being caught. By doing this,

does that also risk the fantasy the lower think it adds to. I think that the excitement of that, though he might get caught, just makes it all more exciting for him, because there is, there is a factor there right Well, when you have anything like what rate or has again, I'm not speak from knowledge, so I don't want to buy out there too to think that I assume that at some point the satisfaction doing so things similar that has to start to wane, and so you ve two ratcheted up. Does that make sense failure? he's tired of the same old same old, so he's going to take it to another level, cause we're the same old same old, not getting them off any more. So yeah. That's what I that's what I was trying to say. That's why I needed you to jump in and say the same old same old is not getting him off any more! That's right

so it is dumped her body. One thing I did I did, have written in my notes, is he left and nodded para any hope by the body which he apparently had used. Something it never was elaborated. I just I had in my notes, because I thought it was strange and then he dropped the car keys. On the dashboard and used iraq to smash a corner of the windshield to get there, back out because the kid slid down when he dropped it. Oh yeah yeah. That's actually happened to me before Design, oh you're, you after you dumped the body undersized trimmings, just a just a key sliding down back in the day. I could see his frustrate. And but I didn't break my windshield to get it out. Oh, I thought you were really getting ready to let something loose there and that's a that's a whole nother podcast. Alright, we may maybe we'll do like a we'll save that, for like special mile

stone. One hundred episode gibbey tells all that's right so at this point. Skin lay and keep a mine he's gotta get back this day and boys got camp, but he wife, marines car down for fingerprints, and he gets back to the camp he was never connected to this crime until we keep saying this twenty years later gonna be connected to everything. Do that math! Eighty I've twenty years later, two thousand five when he's connected everything, but still he's getting away with all of this stuff and what's in resting is, when he is caught, he d you find those photographs that we talked about in his collection, the bondage posed photographs. Let's hear it or talk about the the murder of marine hedge.

The others she was chosen went through the different phases, stalking face and said she lived down the street from me. I could watch the coming going by deciding on a particular day. I the commitment came back from that commitment parked my car over at woodlawn and twenty first street to the bowling alley there, and before that I dressed until I had some other clothes, changed clothes and went to the bowling alley, they're pretty sensible with all the taxes

the actually take me out to park city. Had my kids with me with a bowling bag park. City said we already got a taxi to take me to park city. What happened there, as I pretended that I was a little drunk just to just drink. Some beer worked around my mouth and the guy could probably smell alcohol on me. I asked told him to let me out, so I could get some fresh air and a walk from where the taxi. Let me off over to her house. Where does she live? Sixty to wait to the people? sixty two sixty four sixty two before What more can we do over there would have been well.

Before I was going to have sexual fantasies. My brought my kit kit, LO and behold, reporters they're not supposed to be home. So I very carefully snuck into the house kind of like a cat burglar. In the house she wasn't there about that time. The doors Randall. So we're back with the veterans and get back there. One of the bedrooms she came in was a male visitor. They were there for maybe an hour or so he left I waited till the wee hours morning and then proceeded to sneak into her bedroom and the lights on with life. I think the bathroom lights I just studied flipper lights on and she screamed. been strangled manually,

Were you wearing any kind of disguise or mask? But this time no, no! You indicated this woman lived down the street from you. Did she have you casually we'd walk by and wave she she'd like to work in her yard as well as I liked it just a neighborly type thing: it wasn't anything personal, just a neighbor alright, so she was in her bed when you turn on the lights in the bathroom, the others. So I get some light in there. What did you do that manually strangled her when she started to scream your hand? Yes, sir, and you strangled, or did she die? Yes? Or what did you do after that? Since I was in this sexual fantasy, I went ahead and scripture and probably went ahead and she was nude. I put her on a blanket when there are some personal items in the house figured out how I was going to get her out of there eventually moved through the trunk of the car took the car over to Christ lutheran church. This is where the older church and took some pictures of our trip. So photographs are all kind of camera. Did you order? Did you keep those photographs? Yes, the police probably aren't what happened. That was it. I went to cook. She went through I title. He was already dead, so I took the pictures over in different forms of bondage. That's probably what got me in trouble as a bunch of things. So anyway, that's the probably the main thing, but anyway, after that I moved her back out to the car and we went east on fifty third or what occurred then, sir, what happened to all trying to find a place to hide her body? Did you find a place? Yes, isn't it where I can tell you without looking at the map that it was on fifty third queen greenwich, maybe maybe because she was still in great britain when, when I think between wed and webcam ring, which I found a ditch a low place on the north side of the road and hit her there said hitter, there are some. There were some trees and brush, and I laid that over the top. So a couple of things on that one, he laughed at one point which I thought was kind of sickening about the: if is the

about the address? Also, the that audio seemed some issues with the virus going up and down. So I apologise for that in the the thing that that I found it lasting was some using the following bag as his hit kid. I just still find it every time he talks like another day at the office like he's around the water cooler with with his co workers. This on what happened over the weekend like it's says: no big, you went out bribes strangle masturbated on a dead body, I took some pictures you took. Some pictures went out had some dinner called tonight. I mean he's just so emotional about it, that is a psychopath bright I mean that he is he's in cable, or of any type of empathy or remorse

even know we're gonna play some clips. You know Later on, fire remorse, but he doesn't have a mean. There's no way at any point in time. I don't think he fell bad about anything. He did I. don't think he has it in is not. is make up, we ve got but more murderers. Then we ve got we ve got a lot more after that. So we the arrest and sentencing in him more taunting, the police, so we third up. So we know that the third Absurd is, is gonna, be very interesting because I find interesting is the m communication with an his taunting and in goin back and forth with with the police, after so many years, right and I don't want to get into it now, because.

You know we're already pretty foreign. This EP certain and got a cut it off, but the third it I think, third episode is going to be very, very interesting from that fact alone This needs to make sure that they come back down. The third episode right see here one because you don't want message: here too, you gotta find out how it ends. She thought I had interesting facts today. Plus giving our want Jimmy's libelled devolves some other person, all personal see, adds that death right. You know me, you may get him looked at by local. Eddie. We don't know what will see mess up. My witness protection for our here again, I want to thank everyone for their support. The downloads, the interaction on social media. I want to see even more of a shared

If you like this share with your friends, you know really trying to build something here, the other thing, that I one dimension was I'm really been breaking my brain trying to come up with cool name for for our listeners or are the word gibbey. What am I turn this? What am I trying to say here is given. nonetheless, I am where you want you wanna fan club. Well, I mean not have not like a teeny bopper, justin bieber fan club. But what's a muslim murderer answer yeah yeah there's a name. I am looking for a name. So what I'm asking everybody do is send me the name. You know what it's a play on the way Words are the title of our show, something that that we can use episode after episode to describe

a term of endearment for our listeners. I guess I should put it that way. If you want to make a justin, bieber type fan club, I am not going to stop you clearly. The heavens your picture exactly exactly, but no, you can't see you get on instagram. You can see what am I True crime dogs, bounty who probably heard in the last episode walkin around in in his ears he was I was trying to eat. The door open to the the base. Studio and he got down, I couldn't get him out and I was doing the podcast at the same time. So People are wondering what that was. So that's what it is. If you want to see who cause that go to my air, go to the shows instagram and look for the bit the big black, glad and that's that's? Who did it gives Let's sign off for me, ferguson and gibbey goodnight.

stay safe and keep your own time taken.