The. You hear that sound. You know what time it is. It's true crime, all the time, podcast time welcomed episode. Three, as always, I'm your host MIKE Ferguson. Today, I've got my

Gibson a k, a gibbey back with me again think I'm pretty close to talking gibbey into being a regular co host with me. What you think is now right, giving yeah yeah. I think it's coming around. You know this is a grotesque. The subject matter. time so picture looks a little were a little better, the mind, rabbit, you're hanging, then you're hanging them with me, yeah, I'm hagen. So it's all good. This exciting yeah, definitely as well. speaking of exciting yeah, I'm looking at the charts. We just started this last sunday, the numbers are common in every day, I'm just blown away the shows get tooth episodes under its bell. Download numbers are off the charts way high than I ever expected when I started this, never thought we'd get the numbers that were at this quickly so definitely want to. Thank all the people. There

are supporting this right now who ve downloaded the show. I would ask that those view that, like it, please subscribed to the show re review. we don't have as many ratings or reviews as the numbers just that we should have. We ve got a tunnel downloads, but I dont think alike, people take the time to re, in review and I'll be honest. I haven't always done that on all the podcasts. I listened to, but I'm asking everyone to help us out with that, because I do think that helps Other people find the show us a few like it. Please rate review and let spreading as wide as we can the other thing it does is yo subscribing make sure that you get all the future shows as they come. speaking of starting what were just a again. This shows in it

infancy were trying to find our groove and it its own. gonna get better moving forward as as the routine gets down in, and we your stand. What we're doing so stick with us and enjoy the future. Episodes now Most of you are familiar with Jeffrey Dahmer. We covered him in multiple episodes. What a twisted individual mind of a monster from iD is out with a fourth season about Jeffrey Dahmer, on mind of a monster doctor. Michelle war takes us through the story, starting with Dahmer, his childhood and the first murder all the way through his death. The podcast features jaw dropping never before heard audio recordings from the detectives, journalists and others close to the case to explore exactly what happened and how

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you want your clip played. Actually, if you don't want, your clip played on future episode state that that's enough of the housekeeping as they call it really excited to get into this show near. This is the first time besides, we did were lesser known, I would say for known cases today. Today's so it is one that I'm calling a big timer little play on our podcast name, but we're gonna do some big timers from time to time, but we're. Gonna continued. Do the lesser known as well? So if that's what you're interested in, please don't worry. I do plenty of those, but today's a big I'm or day and its dennis raider Also known as BT k. All true crime fans know who did it. Greater is, and

probably know a lot of his background, but he's you know very interesting subject to tackle, and I think that one the reasons why I'm really excited about this episode. Dennis raider committed First murders and nineteen. Seventy four. He would go on to kill ten people in total tween, the years of seventy four and ninety one. So was total body count, doesn't compare some of the other side, oh killers, who wrapped up large large numbers, I guess the reason why I would consider it a big timer is because he is law enforcement for nearly thirty years so in that way. You know he also taunted the police, with with letters I won't say exactly like zodiac but

What, in the same vein, as is zodiac act in he interacted with the median. Please him we'll get into that you down the road, but another interesting thing about dennis raider is that he can did all of his murders in one particular area of kansas, so it sedgwick count county. basically Wichita, he terror, The citizens of that county in wichita for thirty years, really almost. up until the day he was apprehended. I guessed last not least, the right another reason why I consider him a big timer is the way that he was ultimately identified and captured. and that was just so bizarre that probably sought in a movie. You would laugh. You would think that it was unbelievable.

gibi. I know I've done a lot of talking. I was going to say: I'd put them in that same box additionally, because if you've watched any of his confessions and jailhouse interviews, you know he's so so cold and calculated. You know for a mastermind fantasy, serial killer type, you know he's it's just it's just his personality throws him in that batch yeah. I I I would say psychopath right. Definitely, you would have to say that oh yeah, the other thing that really I guess jumps out at me about dennis raider is. I want to say it looks to the way it looks, but I mean to me he looks like somebody that should be doing your taxes. If I He dennis raider walking down the street, I'm not crossing the other side now there are pictures that you you'll see on the internet, where he, scary, shit right right:

by most of his pitchers either from his days is eighty t, guy or or the tuesday is, is a code enforcer or figure at thea turkey worked at right. I mean you, look at those pictures in its somebody that could sit right next to you at the local restaurant whatever, and you would have no issues sitting there working with them. Yeah I mean he could be your neighbor, my neighbor, your boss, your yeah. He does now no doubt about it, so I there's just there's a lotta layers to two dennis raider and we're going to do I get into as many as we can. I will say that, because her so much information about him, this is proof probably to be a multi part episode right now I dont know fettes, I would say two parts for sure it could even be a three part episode near will will figure that out as we go,

As always, we have to start at the beginning, and that is with Dennis raiders child, He was born march knife nineteen, forty five in a town called pittsburgh kansas to parents, do thea, raider and william raider dennis had three young brothers and though they will. He was born in pittsburgh. He he grew up in basically lived his whole life in Wichita Kansas. One thing at Dennis rader and again a lot of these things. We say bout most of the people that we talk about that is there were warning signs from the very beginning with raider, as are with with so many serial killers. He worked. later state that he would kill and often hang straight cats as a child. He also indicated that he had been dropped on his head as a child and I don't know, give you how much you

at about that, but we have already talked in other episodes about the killing of small animals that that's a big time. Redfish The other thing that I've I've done a lot of reading about an We'll see with a number of serial killer. or killers arena use some of those words interchangeably even though they mean different things is that they were dropped on their heads as a child I dont know does, does add cause some of the wiring that we ve talked about before it go astray. Maybe I think the tortured animals as a kid seems to be a theme for most of them, yet watching animals. No doubt I did a little better research on this thing called the midday an old triad, and it you know named after a guy named mcdonald- and I don't I don't remember his first name but

basically, what says is there's three behavioral characteristics that suggest or predict violent tendencies and up. And later in life. So the three are we, we talked about the first one and that's the killing of animals, the second one arson, so obviously setting fires or as a kid in the third is add wedding. As far as I know, Dennis later. Wasn't a childhood arsonists and I didn't read anything about him having a real bad issue with bed wedding and I'm not sure what the severity or how long the bed wedding has to. her to fall into this category, but I you know, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on the mcdonald try triad, but we probably will in in a future episode when we have somebody that fits those

criteria, but I just one dimension: it for people you have you can. Reach should, on your own. It goes on to say that what you need to have is two of the three: if you, if a child has two of those three trade, that's a concern, its concern and it's also a predictor of violent tendencies. Morass later in life, wait! Oh, he ate a did state that he knew at the age of ten early elementary school all. He knew he had issues and he had what he called demon thoughts and things like that. So

new unit during his interviews. He talked about that with the police, but the other thing was: is that the interviews that they did with all his childhood friends and high school friends and things like that- is that they all said that he was normal. They didn't see him. There was some stories that he did torture some pets, but most of the kids that he went to school with all interviewed didn't basically said that he was a just a typical. You know guy next door buddy I have no issues pretty pretty quiet, though, and most of them said he didn't have a sense of humor. He was pretty dry, but otherwise they didn't see any really any red flags yeah, and I bet I would I would say, isn't that the scariest person of all you have a psychopath who the right word is compartmentalize is so they have the he's in her thoughts. And sees demons whatever you want to call it, but their are able to show too

outside world normalcy. You that the guidance, Herr has his hair standing up and is running around is boxers yelling ever you can see that right, this type of person and in the lot of the big timers or like this they have the inner demon, drives them to committing the crimes that they do, but they are Appearance, you know, doesn't show and obviously that was a big factor in

It's raider evading the police. For thirty years I mean you wouldn't be able to do that if you're the hair standing up running around in your boxers. Well I mean he definitely did he was a monster. He didn't wasn't shy of the admitting that- and I know we're going to dive into the the cases here, but he also mentioned that when he, when his personality switched, you know it was because he had this monster demon and that would come to mind, and I guess it was it looked like a frog is frog like monster That told him to do the things that he did so just the kind of interesting their play up. You have to watch out for frog demons. I mean that's the only that's Gary yeah they're scary, you one one thing I wanted to point out about raider his twist. did sexual fantasies and unless you get it out there right, he is a sexual satan,

We're going to see that in all the crimes that we talk about these twisted sexual fantasy. these men they develop pretty early in his childhood. You know he. Admitted having a fetish for women's underwear early on in that show up later, as he would later still panties from his victims and he would wear them in law your interviews. He also stated that at an a very early age he began having fantasies. Solving, torturing women. I just think it bolster. What you were saying, addy- early age, I think he knew There was something not right with them to what degree I dont know. We now know wasn't right for sure. You know, let's

let's talk a little bit about raider before we get into the crimes mean that the crimes are fascinating. They're gonna eat up a lot of time, but I did want to talk a little bit about him. He was described as a poor student in high school, but he did graduate in nineteen sixty three after that he joined and spent. Nineteen sixty six to nineteen seventy in the air force. I didn't read anything and I don't know if you did about as far as having any problems while he was in the air force, is pretty in non eventful. As far as I could tell yeah he was he was basically like. We were saying he was just one of those people that it was easy forgotten they might work with yeah. They might be. You know, go to school with you, you might recognize their name or face if someone points them out, but you don't really remember anything about them and that's basically how his whole life was yeah. I know a lot of people like that,

hopefully, that they're not listening listening or sitting in their basement. Putting on lipstick writing my name on a list. That's right! Ultimately, that's what I hope. So if they do, if they do, you hope that they let you interview them. First yeah, yeah, yeah least come on Joe raider marries and nineteen seventy one. He marries Paula Dietz at this time, he's working in the meat department of an idea supermarket and they ultimately have two children together Can I spend a lot of time on on the family because they they really don't factor in a mad, I talked a little bit about this in the last episode about richer conklin ski in a writer is gonna. Do his thing and his family's gonna be oblivious so. I want to mention that he was married any had children, because I think that is interesting and it goes against the

one of the stereotypes that a lot of people have of the loan cox. Junk male serial killer, It's probably another reason that he was able to better seal- all that's right word, but can He always crimes and evade capture for as long as he did So raider attends butler county community college. and he earns and associate degree in electronics and nineteen seventy three he will of. Essentially in raw at wichita state universe. de and hill, obtain a bachelors administration, criminal justice. I think it was nineteen, seventy, nine, nineteen, seventy nine as well. Find out. That's well after his killings had begun, but I did think it was worth mentioning that he had a degree in

No justice yeah think he really want to be a cop. I don't know my mike if you read anything about that, but you are we made touch on it when we get into some of his job jobs here in a minute, but he he did like power and authority. I think he probably had thought at one point that he would like to be a police officer. Now they played in

his fantasy roles, sure you know folks, I love audible, audible, less me enjoy all of my audio entertainment in one. As an honourable member, you can choose one title among to keep from their entire catalogue, including the latest best sellers anew release. You also get access to a growing selection of included audio books, audible originals in podcast. Like a mention, you can download a stream concluded titles all you want. I like the fact that audible goes with me. Wherever I go with our want to listen to a podcast or a different type of title. It's there from new members can try audible, free for thirty days, visit, audible, dot com, slash t cat tc, eighty or text he can to fight hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash de cat or text tcp tee to five hundred five hundred hey there to get fans. I want to talk to you about at sea. I love to shop on etsy for beautifully made items from independent sellers. etsy sellers, have everything from statement pieces like rugs and sofas to daily staples like outerwear and accessories shop,

it gets jewelry furniture, art and more made for all budgets and any occasion I've been able to find some really great handmade. True crime related things on etsy and I feel great about these purchases. Someone put a lot of work in to these items and I love them. We keep them in the studio. You owe it to yourself to check etsy out. I know you'll find something on there that you really like whether it's something true crime related or not. Maybe it's a new coat, maybe it's a great new pair of shoes, new patsy used? The code knew for ten percent off your first purchase. That's code, new maximum discount value of fifty dollars offer in june thirtieth two thousand twenty three c terms that etsy dotcom, slash terms for home style and gifts. Shop at sea, dotcom etsy has so this. a little bit about his work. History can set up some of this stuff before we get into the crimes like he worked at the idea supermarket. He went from there to be.

seeing and assembler at the common company, and I assume that the common It makes the lanterns and all the camping equipment. Now at that same com. I thought I thought I was but yet ultimately in probably the job that he has the longest is these works, it works as an alarm installer at the wichita office of the eighty ti home security company. I'm sure eighty ti real, proud to have Dennis raiders name associated with them as a former employees or eight. The other thing that that I thought about. When I read that night I won t go, you take on it was I mean that seems like an hour most of his later jobs seen as well liking. Perfect job for somebody that does what he does right:

being an alarm. Installer allows you access into people's homes. I dunno that it's just something that crossed my mind that I don't know if he chose it because of that or if that was just you know, a job that came open and he thought you know. I think I made a good cover, so it's definitely a good cover for him. It's something that he could use that to his advantage on. Speaking out. He could use it on his advantage of going and being away from the home and for a good alibi. You know I mean he he could be in these neighborhoods for work. Why, meanwhile, he's you know trolling and and stalking his victims? Why is he getting paid to? You know work for eighty ti, I I think I definitely think that was a, a cover for his. You know his famous side. Yes, so you mention trolling in stocking in and we're gonna talk

that a lot because that's what he did almost every day of his life. After a certain point, I don't know what year that start exactly, but I mean that was his daily routine was trolling for potential victims stocking people that he thought would be potential victims and again what we're gonna talk about this a lot. But eighty, He alarm company, alarm installer. That seems like a as you mentioned, the perfect cover for that are perfect job right, you're fired from eighty tee and nineteen eighty eight and its hired on as a census field operations manager at on what the hell that is, but while again, is it another job. We are working for the: u S, S, department, recourse for a first for the city and then a u vinci works.

You know for the us census when it comes out so again it's another reason he can. He has a legit reason to go door to door being in people's neighborhood without being suspected of anything out of the ordinary, because he's a census worker right I I did make a note here that says that, like us, I didn't know what this job was, but the one thing that I did see was that It allowed him a lot of freedom of movement yo to travel throughout the different areas of of kansas and especially around the which taught area so again going to allowing him freedom for trolling in stocking. In all of these things. The other thing I want to talk about is first projects

because I don't know if you saw this mic, but this this is the term projects that raider used for his stalking, his the the women that he viewed as potential victims yeah. He had his projects and he he labeled on. You know some time it was the green project. Sometimes it was yeah. He had different project names. It always came down to who he was trolling and stalking. They were the product, That he was locked in on so just just to try to you know to round out this this kind of job and we're moving forward in time. Right as I talk about these jobs, we're going to go back in time when we start talking about the the murder But his last job was as a dog catcher in compliance officer in park city kansas, he as a degree in criminal law

this. He has a need for power or authority over others and think this is where job This is where it gets it, because there are a lot of residents of park city kansas that complained over the years that raider abuses power abuses authority to the extent that some of these residents even moved away from park city just to get away from writer right, but I do think as much as he was a pain in the side of many of the residents. This job properly saved, I would say, probably four or five lives easily, because it gave him the owl, but we're getting that get into that later. One store I found interesting was the one with a believer name was mister king, Zita we're talking is this. This is the woman that he killed her dog, you euthanize your dog, or I asked I stopped her, didn't like the fact that she had a boyfriend,

and tat. She would have been on his list if did not have this way to have his power trip, so I went over and again tat later yeah, yeah yeah. We bobby his visit, probably has the best job he had to. I think he loved it yeah. I absolutely, I think he loved this job. I mean you know I read things had talked about that he wrote citations, fur fur grass. It exceeded six inches in length in. I think he was just any any thing that he could do to Lord.

Over you know the residents of park city. I think he reveled in that because, as we're going to see, he was all about control and- and this job gave him a level of control- and I think you make a good point mike in that it probably did save a number of lives. We've gotten through his childhood. We've talked about his jobs. Let's talk about dennis rader as a sexual sadist. You know we, we talked a little bit bout him having sexual fantasies involving torture since he was a child. I don't know how old, but obviously that's not normal me it's normal to have sexual fantasies, but

I don't believe it's normal for them to involve the torture and and those aspects. I think that's where you know he he went off the rails. We talked about the fact that he used the expression projects to describe his essential victims, and we talked about the fact that he did a great deal of stalking and trolling of his victims before he killed them, one other factor see this in some of the the and says is when it comes to his emotion, is he would often cut the phone lines of the victims prior to any so I do have a sound bite that I want to play. It gives a little bit of insight into danish raider. It's from an interview. You learn a little bit more about him

one of the reason I got this fantasy. I started working out this fantasy online and, what's that potential that person become a fantasy, I can just lose.

Looped over late bed at night. Thinking about this person events and how it's going to happen kind of real, almost like a picture show. I wanted to go ahead and produced directed and go through it, no matter what the cost for the cost, the consequences. It was going to happen, one way or another. The first stop stages. When you start learning more about your victims, potential victims went to the library to look up their names address, cross reference to call a couple of lines draw lighter whenever the plastic bags roll have a nice, although the kids have a very have a house together, love something I use. I actually think I may be possessed with demons. Dropping my head was a kid theological christian people and some of those people are really strong. They actually think well the whiteness as demons.

it didn't come easy. The only thing I can figure out you know something told me to do this. You know normal people. Just don't do this, you can't stop. I can't stop it. It's just it controls me, you know it's it's! It's like it's an interesting to hear him talk about some of these things that you know he talks about the stalking and the trolling. One thing that that he hits on is what he calls his hit kit. He talks about this a lot and basically it's his kit that he takes after he planned out his his crime or and after he stalked his target, and he talks about it, including tape and a gun and knives and wire cutters. Anything basically, he thinks he's going to need. After he's done, the the rican. He doesn't sound like a raving lunatic in this interview and really in

the sound bites that I heard no, I'm his keys, cold and calculated and does not show remorse. And really leaves out a lot a lot of the emotion of the attacks. So again, it just shows you that you're somebody that has just been described that he you know he. Basically he is this serial killer, and he wears his cloak of Dennis. Dennis is really not who he is Dennis is just a cloak to who he really wants to be. He wants to be this monster. That has is what they call the factor, acts that tries to to be the killer yeah. But one thing that was interesting to me is that he was. He did admit that you he had something inside him that was complete. Bring him to do these things in that he couldn't controlled. That urge that's that's, gotta, be

me pretty common in these types of killers, but do they recognise that and he definitely did in the end this interview some this stuff will get into later, but I he was, I think he knew what he was doing. I thinking The obviously knew was wrong, but he got to a point where this is where we go back to being a psychopath right. A psychopath is somebody that feels no empathy and they don't care about anything other than what is gonna, get them. What their ultimate goal is. I just I find it in turning to hear him talk. One thing I should have said the very beginning is There's a lot of audio on Dennis raider, so in these episodes. You're gonna hear alive,

Badia. I think it adds a lot to the podcast just to hear him talk, but there's audio for every murder where he explains it, and I think it's time my to get into the very first one one that started at all. I agree so that were so. This is january, fifteen nineteen, seventy four we're talking about the o terrors raider, kills. For members of the terror, Family in their home, there's Joseph is the father jew, is the mother and he kills two of their children. Josephine and Joseph junior, so the research that that I pulled my the o terrors were hispanic family. They

I had recently moved into their home raider in his and I'm doing air quotes that you can't see. Trolling and stocking phase had spy. The mother, Julie and the daughter, Josephine right now, keep in mind that naturally also worked at coleman with it I didn't see that I saw that she worked there, what Didn't see- and maybe you put it together- is whether they were they crossed pass or that he knew her from there. He knew her from there. He also knew the second victim in April. As she worked there. Catherine also worked. There is little ok, but he didn't really put it all together. There. The way you know you- and I would say you know call man was a pretty big company- that unemployed employed a lot of people, so so you're that so many different shifts their rights or your thought is this. This was now

a trolling victim. This was a victim that he chose based on interactions at work, yeah. I think he first read the first two yeah. I think he told her at work yeah, but then me he definitely trolled and stalked everybody absolutely right once he locked in on her as he calls it. Then, at that point you know he just stopped her her movements and followed her daily patterns, hers and the husband and the other, though they had three kids and he you know he all all those patterns again you're talkin, psychopath right, a psychopath fixes in on one thing at that point time. That's all that matters to them. The murders occurred around eight or nine in the morning, raider had been observing the house for some time. And that morning he cut the phone line to the house. We talked about that as part of.

his emma you'll see it again and he barged in the back door the why thing he was not expecting was that Joseph, the father would be home at that time. I think it is in this Walking phase was learning the movements of the family for whatever the reason I he expected Joseph to be either go

at work. We don't. I dunno what happened that day, but Joseph was home. Rader had his hit kit with him and in in that hit kid, he had a gun and it was really you know he used the gun to help subdue and control the family cause you. You know you got four people, that's not. I can imagine that that's not easy to control for people. There's gotta be some hysterics, obviously with a gun that that makes it easy easier. Another method that he used was to tell the family that he was a wanted criminal. Well, that's part of his fantasy. He liked that he liked telling them that he was a wanted criminal on the run and that he needed there

of the keys to their car needed food or diet at this or that to to play the excitement level up right. So he tells him that he's a wanted criminal. All he wants is to get some food, some money in their car and then he'll lie using that ruse, we'll call it a ruse using that and the gun he's able to get all forward a lie down in order to tie him up when it said and done all four raider strangled all four of the o terror family. They would die by strangulation. Joseph the father, he's gonna be found face down on the floor with his wrists and ankles bound julie. The mother is found the bad bound, basically in the in the same way, except for the fact that she's been gagged. Josephs, the second, which is the the youngest son he's found in his bed. Room in the same fashion is his father. The

the difference being that raider had placed a hood over his head. One reporter claimed- and I read this somewhere- that that he actually had three hoods over his head. Think it's because our hoods Bags- I'm not I'm not exactly sure, but it was part of the the strangulation. I don't know if, like the first one you tore, I did read some about that, but I understand mike is so it takes all four from back to the one bedroom and is. Is three fifty seven that stuff? You know his leverage ties, em up feet and hands, and then so then he goes in this in his mind. You know he is which is out of fantasy and realizes they seen his face. He he's he's ahead and he's gonna put the plastic bag over Joseph face where I put out over his head and takes a chord

and starts to strangle him. Justice moves around enough that he tears a hole in the bag with which you would do right if you tried to put it go over my head, I'd fight, you like hell exactly so meanwhile, he says. Then he moves on over to Julie and you know he tries to just strangle her with a cord. He thinks he's successful, but she just passes

and so then you know he's moving on to Josephine and she does he. He does the same thing. You know he strangles her. He thinks that he's successful and then he simply just puts a bag over a junior's head and ties it, and then he goes back to Joseph and at that point you know he's putting another another bag, some type of it's either a hood or a cloth or something in another bag to keep him from tearing a hole into it. But meanwhile he sees the mom Julie is coming to an end, trying to figure out what's going on. So at that point he goes to strangle her again and as he's getting ready to do that, you know she's crying out to them. You know to say my son, but he goes ahead and he strangles her that he goes back to the father and finishes the getting the bag around his head and in the cord.

And that takes care of the father, then he goes back to that's when he takes junior out of the one bedroom and move on to the other bed room. Yes, maybe it's juniors bedroom! That point. That's what you're saying. Oh, he put multiple bags in in either a shirts or some type of cloth over his head to make sure that he actually suffocated, and there was no chance for him coming out of that and then, of course that's when he goes back to Josephine drags her down

to the basement and that's were you know he goes to another level. You know hangs her in the course after he hangs her. That's one is sexual part kicks, and am he has a sexual fantasy were masturbates either on the body or or into the the yeas. It yeah he's a six on the bench right, absolutely, no about that hangs, Josephine, masturbates, honour doesn't sexually assault. Any one per se right me he's again is no pennant. There's no penetration theirs. They like that. That's not his fantasy. I guess that's where trying to fool his mind why that is his. Why is that his fantasy to see to strangle and then that

such a turn on to him that he's gonna masturbate cause. Of course you know Josephine's eleven, so I mean- and I don't know at that time, how old I think he just had the one at that time. He just had his balls you know like a three year old boy, four year old boy, don't take at that time? He had his daughter yet, but I just find it really strange that his fantasy was to it's eleven year old hanging. You know he had his control. His power moment think he got off. And after all that that was the thrill. That was the the the peak and then, of course, then he, we'll masturbates the bring it all too to closing he actually didn't stop there. When I read was that he they found seamen on some of the other victims as well rise. I think this'll this was somebody did. No, I dont mean other v, I mean other victims in o taro house. All really I didn t know he'd aptly

He definitely does this again and in future with future victims, but I read where please said that they found seamen on, they didn't, I didn't say exactly which victims, but he doesn't just do this in the basement. He does it another place. of the house. So he was turned on by the fact that he had strangled these people right. So we gotta keep goin cause bright. A bog down, but the o terrorists have another son and it's their fifteen year. Son charlie, that actually comes home the next day and discovered the bodies and what will be before you? You talk about charlie mac. I just wanted to say so. I find it interesting. This is how calculated this killer is cause. He talks about him and he knew with a ticket and everything when he was time to leave that he had a thing called the right hand rule.

where he would go through the house and he would go through and clean up everything and move in one direction and to the point- and this is his other, his other fantasy or how he kept his fantasies alive, rank as even go through the house, and he would take things in this case. He took a radio and a watch, some pictures and things like that, but he would use this later when he would go up in the tree house behind his house. To look at these items in this would bring back the high that he had. It said that you know nothing was ever proven, but was said that then he would. He was probably up in that tree house. You know masturbating. I was just getting ready to say I guarantee he's jerking. It again, look right at this stuff, pitchers, the panties, the the white, whatever whatever. However, it brought and brought it back in his mind and got them excited again, yeah, so It's all great points, as I said, charlie comes home, but I do want to say.

so strangulation and the time king of souvenirs, which you mentioned he took out what was at a watch and a radio. This would become part of his ammo or or his pattern of behavior. Because we're going to see this yeah mate to the boy I mean he would even set these up to look like somebody robbed a house right. He would park his car two or three blocks away, walk down or take a taxi down to get it on the street of the where the crime was going to take place a lot of times. He would take the victim's car, drive it somewhere and work. It all

to the other cases. He would always set it up to try to make it look like someone came in and rob the house as well. One thing I love about the summer is getting to do all of my favorite indoor things outside sharing meals, watching movies falling asleep on the sofa accidentally everything's, better alfresco articles, curated catalog of outdoor furniture is here to help you do all your favorite things this summer. They've got everything you need to really make things your own from outdoor sofas, to dining sets to decor so get out there and create your dream outdoor space with article article offers fast, affordable shipping across the: u s and Canada. You pick the delivery time and they'll. Send you updates every step of the way article is offering our listeners fifty dollars off your first purchase of one hundred dollars or more to claim visit article dot, com, slash, wonder he and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article dot com, slash, wonder e for fifty dollars off your first purchase of one hundred dollars or more you, and I just discuss the details and it's pretty gruesome.

we have raider in his own words talking about the murder I'm to play that now. Well, I confronted the family of discord, your journal ask them to. I was there. I squeals wanted was to get the car was hungry. Food was wanted. Ask him! Why don't you, at that time I realized that wouldn't be a really good idea. So I, finally the dog was a real problem, so I asked Mr Carroll if he could get the dog out, so he had one of the kids put it out. I took him back to the bedroom, the family therefore members what happened at the time. I tied him up while still done well and between tying s, heart,

he tied them. Well, they started complaining about turning tighter and I read releasing the bonds a couple times. Try to make. Mr Charles operable sector early, red ribbon or accident. In philadelphia for his head? Had he put a thank you parker one underneath him yeah. He only talked to me. We are giving our car and money. I guess he didn't have much money there. I realise that the I was already I didn't, have a mask. I think there are a good idea me I made the decision to go ahead and put them down. I guess or strangled what did you do to Joseph? girl

What carroll said? Mr Jerome bonnet hosty beggary said in his imports, enlightenment, This was in the bedroom. Yes, did he in fact, suffocate dies. Result is not right away. Sweden would have well After that I didn't nessus internal I had never strangling one before really know how much pressure he had been on the person or how long it would take that she also tied up there? Yes, give up her hands and are being retained. Accuse on the bed were the chill. Well, Josephine was on the bed and sooner this time. So we're talking. First of all about Joseph o terrorists who put the bag over his head, titan

he did not die right away. Can you tell me what happened in regards to jokes? He moved over real, quick like and I take for a hole in the bag, and I can tell that he was helps albums there at a time when the whole family, just when they were gone, they saw our requests. pretty quick blending. I mrs apparel, She went out repairs down. I thought It s down strangled. Josephine he passed out. I thought she was dead, then I went over but back on them junior. and then If I remember right, after girl came back

in their choice of sea or in a hole in the back Were you with him. Then I've got another bag over hurry. That arrive ire a glance at the braer either a flop. t, shirt or something over or resident in a bag and other back on them. subsequently die? Well, yes, yup, and I mean I was. I didn't just stay there and watch him that I was move around the room, but so you indicated he strangled missus archer off after you have done. This is incorrect. I went back and strangled her again finding builder so this is in regards to count to you in first of all put the bag over Joseph votel royals head and he tore a hole in the back then

head strangle, brazil, Terrell, then reformist referral strangled. back for over his head and strangled thought he was going down. I went over and strangled mrs apparel. I thought she was yeah. Then I strangled the way she was down and then I went over to dinner at the back of his head, for that mrs apparel will back the notion. We have said was going on The point in time, strangled her have strangle death on your annual nobody with a rope then I am. I think that point in time I read Mr Charles. At the back of his head went over and then to junior of all before that? She asked me to them,

It's the same reason, so I actually had to take the bag off and then I was really upset at that point in time so basically, we if was down mississippi girl was down. I went ahead and junior up into the bag over his head and took him to the other bedroom. What did you do that but bagger would say that wants to reset the t shirt bags. They couldn't care a hole in it and he died from that We back the Josephine walked back up. What did you do when I took her to the basement and eventually hunger or hunger or the facebook yesterday did you do anything else at that time, as I have had some sexual fantasies, but that was after she was home what did you do so he has some sexual fantasies. That's maybe them

biggest euphemism I've ever heard give up. So I think it important to hear him say it. just. I just want to run by a couple of things that I jotted down so number one. He tells this to be a pact court room to the judged everybody much like you would tell me a story about by in a hammer at the local hardware, store mean exactly how very very, very coal. Oh yeah menagerie on emotional, yet nothing I mean it's, it's amazing. The way he tells the story. The second thing they jumped out at me is the part where he taught about trying to comfort and again I'm doing air quota. You can't see comfort, Joseph the father because he had a cracked rib, he knew he was going to kill him. So why is he trying to comfort him there? Why is he putting up giving them a payload to lay on

I found that very odd, but the biggest thing to me- is so he says that he hangs Joe, seen any says he has a sexual fancy. He has no problem. Basically, allowing every minute detail of every. of the four murders but if you notice, he doesn't want to talk about any of the sexual stuff at all, so that billy, jumped out at me, whether it is because that's embarrassing to him and it's not to have just near to have killed four people, whether he that was going to be embarrassing. Furs fail, I dont know the reason but dad There is a reason why he didn't want to talk about that. We should go catherine bright. You think. I think we wanted it just touch based about charlie.

At home. I did I mean that that's all I had I mean he, you know comes home, he's the one that finds them calls the cops. So he comes on the next day, yeah I didn't know if you had something else on it, but I didn't know, though I don't think I don't think we got to touch base on the yeah. I just talked about that: their fifteen year old son, Charlie, came home, discovered the bodies. I have anything else on, though they were ready. to the to the Catherine brighton governance? This murder is april of nineteen. Seventy four mike you mentioned that catherine. So worked in common, which I did not catch. He was stocking hurry stocked. Everybody so is just another it ass. He calls Another project, other projects, do the trawled any stocks. Maybe this A working party is, he now He seen or work. He followed

tour to find out where she lives. I'm I'm inserting things here, because that's not part of it, but I'm making assumptions so on April. Fourth, he breaks into her and into her house. He hides in a bedroom waiting for a cat. To come home again, it doesn't go exactly the way he plans because Catherine comes home with her brother cabin. So at time, catherine's twenty one kevin's, ninety, Kevin didn't live there, but he run in some errands. I think with his sister and he came back to the house that she was renting there. which talk raider, startles them comes out of the bedroom, winning the gun Adam from what I can could gather He basically use the same rules. I thanked any my that he ate

at the the same he's wanted. You know he has his. He has his two guns he's got his three fifty and then he has a little twenty two autumn as well. I don't know why. If you have three fifty seven own away, you need a twenty two senior now. I guess Maybe the backup so rater forces the two of them in a bed. Room ties up, Catherine, actually forces cabin to tire, catherine at gunpoint. He attempts to tie up cabin in another room, but things are not going well for him because he doesn't bring all the the hit kit stuff that he that he needs and I dont know if this is like you, I do in a podcast where we did the first one we have set. One you obviously have a podcast gets better. As you become

familiar with the process. You know what you need to do you, you get a rhythm goin rights are amusement analogy here this is his technically his gonna be his fifth murder, but it's his second project. I guess, writes a second project second hit right, so it doesn't have always the things that he that he needs in his hit kit and he add to try to improvise from things that he finds in katharine's, home kevin's. Ninety years old dennis keeps encounter bring these men. and you're going to see a change in in his emma later and in it for years because of this, but he keeps encountering these men who are a little bit problematic to him because Kevin gets loose.

They get into a vicious fight and Kevin almost gets raiders gun. I think from him at one point: you know raiders able to get the gun back. He I think he fires off a shot. He does hit Kevin in the face, but Kevin still fighting him. I mean he's fighting for life is probably fighting first sisters. Life Kevin makes one more attempted to try to we're power raider, but raider in the second time in the head, with a twenty. Do this time right so Heaven is stunned and bleeding has been shot in the head twice. It looks like he's dead or alive process of dying and at that point rate or goes back to work on catherine firm, accounts she gave him a help, fight as well yeah. She she's fight them as well and putting up a heck of a fight to the point

and you he thinks she's going down, but then she doesn't having what what's interesting about this one is because of All of this chaos raiders mind is probably ordered and he has in his mouth and he has a way that he thinks this is gonna go and it's not when that way at all kevin's there he had to shew issue Kevin twice catherine trying to kick the show out of him, so he switch is from strangulation, because that she's is probably fighting too much for him, It takes a lot to strangle. Somebody and not saying that from personal knowledge sounds like. I just said that from personal knowledge, what I was thinking, maybe every citizen that way right right, but if- everything that I've ever read or inaction. In raiders own words or here and at some point took a lie.

more to strangle somebody. Then he ever thought it would because of this switches from strangulation to stabbing because he did life in his head. Kid apparently guns a knife and yeah yeah. So he's got the knife, he stabs catherine, multiple times deep cuts to the end. Men three times. I think in around the room. Was it three times but as is going on Kevin as now up an atom. And he runs out house he's gonna run out- try to get help for catherine, unfortunately, by the time. Well, they they do come. They get catherine she dies in the hospital. A few hours later, despite you know they they surgery and some blood transfusion, fusion's and- and and at this point me he's in critical condition because he's been shot in the head twice. how the hell we got out and was able to get any help at all.

but you ve got all this chaos Kevin. Gone. He didn't get strangle catherine, and so he but be Kevin has run out of the house. I think you are right. it runs out as well does what he calls a quick, clean up, grabs the keys to the car, but the set of keys he grabs is the wrong set. So when he goes out to get in their car the drive off because he's parked his car, you know blocks away. Car doesn't work so then he just jumps out, and he just basically high tells it to three blocks to back over to wichita state park in the parking area where he parked his car, because he he knows that you know the police will be there. You know in a matter of minutes that the the thing is and and and you saw something different. I dont think you

his thing on this one. If you know what I mean yeah, I don't think he had time, but I you know again: he went through really fast and cleaned up, so I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't take, You know something from the house for now: that's not a lighter, that's not what I by his thing I don't think he I'll picky masturbated one ray. I think he took some from the house and to do that yesterday. I right right yeah, so was it A combination of the fact that he was afraid the police were were were coming but also because he did not get to do the strangulation yeah ethic, its combination eating get that they often he likes

yeah. I I don't know how much of it was one vs, the other, because by all accounts, if it's the strangulation right, I don't know if it's just the killing. I think a lot of it has to do with the strangulation and because it doesn't go so well. I think he doesn't really take credit for this for quite a while. Am I right? Is this the one that he just it went so bad that he just doesn't take credit for it and doesn't really bring it up, Throughout his early meetings with the police, but eventually just you know, takes credit for it yeah. I think you're right me will probably get into that in in a future episode, but I do believe you're you're right about that. So You're, as without taro, we have raiders own words, what's better than that, I would like to say that I had many what I call them projects. There were different people in the town, wash. having rights was one of them

if the targets are just as indicate. How did you select for just driving by one day- and I saw her- go in the house with somebody else, and I thought that's a possibility. There was many places an area. Aren't you Well, we've been here all we're just twelve anyway. That's it just was basically a selection process work toward it. If it didn't work. I just move on to something else: the in in like other persons stocking scrolling trolling staging a stocking stage. He was in stopping station. This happened Are you sure you identified catherine bride potential victims? Yes, I would Do yourself a cannibal ardent what You do that here, in cetera on this particular day, broke into the house, waited for her to come home. How did you break through the back door. He sighed for her to come home weight?

in the house there, because the bedroom I walked in housing, I forgot, be if they came. What happened she and given right, came in wasn't expecting him to be there. And went out Agus they were related time. I watched them at all. I was one in california, he doesn't are. Today. The same thing on earth make me feel better proceeded to think ahead in time. I can get him type her up. First and then I tied him up or vice versa. I don't remember right now. Eleven. Let me ask you indicated you had some items these people with you, bring these items of your caravan charles. I did I'm not really sure on rights there,

some iron work or the police. There was some controversy on there, rather more likely idea if I had brought my stuff in use, muster cabin would probably dead. I'm not bragging on that. It's just a matter of fact. It's the bonds. I tied him up with a broken, so and maybe some way with the same were gathered together got out again Are you indicated you leave? You had cabin tat, Catherine tommy. What happened? I move, Well after I really can't remember judge whether I had her tie him up or she tied him up, but anyway I mood basically moved her to another bedroom and he was already secure. Their lives have been taught to speak to the bedpost than those that he didn't run

not if I heard in the other bedroom impacting strangled him at the time. We had a fight Will you armed with a hand and at that time, eventually interdependence, I started strangling the eases broke. These bonds jumped up a bit like all my gun shot him. He fell over the blood for, as I suddenly it's down and was out and then, when it started to strangle the hamster faster, We started fighting this bonds are very good at before we thought, you and catherine yeah we bought and I got best ever I thought she was going down and then I could hear some movement near the room. I want even now

but she was going down there the other better capitalism try to restrain limited in time jumped up and with one vote I know something has got the other useful. That was my shoulder never make my shoulder. And realized german shoulder for gas and other had magnum shoulders. The other was a way to we thought I'm gonna go off jammed again said nothing and if you thought that was the only got ahead, because once either that his finger or hitting for something got away, I used the twenty two shot him one more time I thought you down: shot him a second. Yes, sir, what happened? with back to finish. When she was fighting.

The point I am fighting here. I just and then I heard some. I don't know whether I am Basically losing control regulation was working on used a knife, say you used a knife. He always did you do with them. I stabbed her. And she said: is that two or three times either gear and to back here, one here or maybe just two tonnes per year? pointed lore back in the army, the ritz underneath the rich So after use that Actually, I think that one time it was a total mess doesn't help patrol. She was bleeding when she went down I think I just went back to check on Heaven or that basic was saying I'm I heard him say it could be one of the two of them,

but you're the house is open and he was gone all I tell you what I thought I thought the police were committed at that time. I heard the door open, I thought, that's it and I stepped out there The undersigned voted on street so quickly not everything but a good and left. So, oh, I dunno. I a couple of things. The part where he talks about if he would have brought everything that he needed in his hit. Kid Kevin would have been dead end says, I'm not bragging best of he said that was a factor or whatever I thought that was interesting, but one again it's like he's telling a story of what he had yesterday for breakfast at the damn waffle house, yeah, pretty nonchalant. I guess at that point you're caught and it doesn't,

matter, but there still something. I don't know I've seen confessions or me on on some shows before where people have a lot more emotion. He has no empathy that, like we talked about because he's a psychopath, it's an it it's interesting. I hope people find it resting. I know the audio quality is not great on the the confession clips: that's it's the best one. I could find the other thing and I think it backed up what you said MIKE were he talked about at one point after Kevin had run off. He thought that the cops on their way, so he did ass. He did a quick clean up. He didn't do the. What was it right right? Hand rule right? He couldn't He probably couldn't do the right hand rule because he didn't have time, but he did a quick, clean up and he didn't say it, but he he probably didn't get to do as little as a jerky jerk, and then he got the hell outta there.

I think, at this point, where we're at in the podcast probably goods a good stopping point. It's crazy that, even though we ve we ve, we ve covered half of the murders Time wise. We ve only covered a basically what a few months and that's, why it's very, very interesting about the the bt K. Dory is, the next five murders. The timing him trying to play with the media in the cops and and all that will get into that. The next episodes gibi do you agree? Is a good place to stop and, oh absolutely yeah. I think it's a good good spot when we pick back up. You know when when he sends out his his his first interaction with the media and I think we'd go from there- it really gets intriguing at that point,

Yeah yeah definitely does so well again prepaid everybody for listening to me absurd, downloading. Please crime so that you get part two. The Dennis raider bt K story fur fergus gibbey stay, save, keep your own time. And.