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racist, ray science of the nineteen twenties things like races, centralism, my collective guilt, like neo segregation and then lee implant them in our institutions are low and welcome to trigonometry on France's pops up on constant, kiss him, and this is a show for you. If you would honest conversations with fascinating people, a berlin guest today, is a senior fellow at the manhattan institute and one of america's most prominent critics of critical rice airy christopher. If a welcome to trigonometry scheme to be with you, it's great to have you listen before we dive into all this fascinating stuff, just tell everybody here, particularly in the uk. We have an international audience, but there may be many people who are not familiar with you. First of all, who are you? How are you where you are? What has been the journey through life? The brings you to be

talking to us yeah, you know I am. I was born and raised in california on the west coast of the united states, santa after I graduated from university, I worked for more than ten years as a documentary filmmaker. I directed four films for pbs, which is our equivalent of the bbc, roughly sold the film to netflix a number of years ago, and then, in the last few years, I've gotten kind of transitioned from pure documentary filmmaking to getting involved in more social and political issues and then shifted my own kind of field of of my own domain. Mt, the other expertise from can fit the filmmaking process to a journalism, riding advocacy process, and I found myself almost exactly a year ago, a little bit more than a year ago, now kind of accidentally.

Becoming one of the primary critics of critical raised there. As you explained- and it really happened to me very briefly, because I started reporting on these issues. Reporting on training programmes, reporting on credit, a syrian schools, reporting on critical race therein corporations and became the kind of go to source for whistleblowers all over the united states that we're seeing these ugly and divisive tenets of critical race theory starting to make headway and take over their institutions. Christopher, though the one thing the irony take away from that you ve had a lie I've which, theoretically, would make you super woke right. You grow up and color for california, you make documentaries, you know: you're you, maritime, Eric and woman. You ve got mixed race, kids, like how did you? How did this become a thing for you yes, that's right! Yeah I mean like youtube. You would add up all those things and you would say somehow that probably equals awoke. I was

laughed as a younger person in my growing up in high school for the first bit of college, but you know the ideas of the last started for me to break down. As I saw more of the world as a documentary filmmaker, I had a chance to travel to. I think seventy plus countries around the world, I've seen a lot. I've seen the highs the lows, the awful the beautiful everything in between and, as I actually looked at the world in a very up, close and personal way. All the different systems of government, all the different cultures. I quickly real. I will slowly realise actually that the ideas that I grew up with these ideas that I had been stewing andy's ideas that I had been taught it in a university setting just didn't hold up to reality and it took me a while to then I guess, moved to the right

took me a number of years, but once I started actually kind of not just having the caricature of conservative thought or conservative politics but actually started doing the reading doing homework. Understanding a bit more about the kind of conservative philosophy, the conservative body of work over the last two hundred years, or so it started to me to match my experience with reality more closely, not perfectly, of course nothing is perfect, but but but that was kind of my own journey, my own transition and I think, as things have gone into hyperdrive woke nest in the last four or five years that that transition seem to be more prescient and more accurate than ever and water Chris critical rice theory, and why Why is the second part to that question? Is why is it so dangerous to our society yeah, so in a critical race,

here I'll try to give you a kind of succinct, summaries, critical, raced areas, an academic discipline. It's me a marxist philosophy derive from critical theory which really took hold in united states around nineteen sixty five and it holds something very simple: it says that the united states is a fund. Mentally racist country, founded on white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalist exploitation, and that the forces are still at the root of our society today and even It may seem that we have made progress. The category serious argue that in many ways we haven't made any progress. The country is just does racist, exploitative and patriarchal today as it was. A hundred years ago or two hundred years ago, those forces have merely become more subtle, more sophisticated and more insidious. The conclusion, then, that the critical race dearest arrival is that all of our systems must be deconstructed, dismantled and demolished. In order for a ban

her and utopian society to merge. This includes capitalism, their explicitly anti capitalist. This includes kind of gender relations and family structure that they want a kind of dismantling deconstruct. And I think it also crucially includes our system of constitutional government, where they are deeply sceptical of the first amendment right to free speech, the fourteenth amendment right to equal protection and and so on and so forth, so when you kind of arrive in its totality the early work is explicit, even though they ve tried to kind of cover their tracks lately. It is not programme of reform. It's not an extension of a civil rights movement, it's actually a programme of liberation or revolution that was outlined in the the years in the nineteen sixties, as critical theory takes interracial component of into ninety nineties and now seemingly has spread throughout our institutions.

And you said it spread right. The way through our institutions, eight seems to have come to prominence in the law. last year or so. Why do you think it's related to what has been happening in america or do you think a explode into the public consciousness because of locked down because of be alarmed because of covert? think a bit of both I mean, certainly in my reporting. What I've seen is that some of the earliest school districts to adopt the principles of critical race theory in their teacher training programs for their curricula were doing so around twenty ten I know, portland public schools was an early adopter. That's portland oregon kind of the the home of antifa when the walker's place on earth and they were adopting it around twenty ten in a in in a kind of tender, can light way, but certainly what you ve seen as that school districts, not just in portland or berkeley or new york or Boston, but actually we ve had a middle erica school districts, suburban school districts, all sorry,

to adopt it around the same time following the death of George floyd, which of course followed the cove, lock downs and then was kind of six needed by these large scale, protests and in large scale riots, and you see the documentation from the school districts and it's like a meat. domino effect. It's actually a pretty profound process of of of of of spread of contagion. We're all of these schools around the country are adopting the same kind of board resolutions, the same kind of training programmes, the same kind of curriculum modules things that have been in development for years and decades. All the sudden. In the environment of covert locked down in the environment of remote school invite men of ongoing racial unrest they suddenly became adopted almost everywhere simultaneously, and this think is signals. It not only in itself, but is also significant, because what we ve seen since I

really exposing it reporting on others have been working on this issue as well. We ve seen a tremendous backlash and a tremendous resistance to this. You know not, the race conscious, but really racially divisive program in schools at christopher. Before we get into into the the real kind of implementation of some of this stuff, which is very important, I know you've done a lot of work on it Let's explore just the theory itself, and you know you lay down, I think, an accurate description of what I understand to be critical race theory and the the beginning part of it. Isn't it isn't accurate to say that the united states was founded? It was at it's foundation, at least, let's say a society that did involve elements suddenly have raised them. I dunno about white supremacy, but probably white supremacy, capitalist exploitation,

and patriarchy on those things all quite accurate to point out yeah. Well, I I think that there is a a a subtle but very important distinction. I mean you can certainly say that I mean an out audibly anyone. Anyone would agree that that, when the united was founded. Slavery was a widespread practice: racial discrimination and justice exploitation. Of course they're, not making that argument that these are historical realities that we should grapple with, that we should seek to understand and if they have any kind of residual facts. Today we should seek to rectify that's an hour, meant that I've made that's an argument that I believe to be true. What they're saying is that the united states is fundamentally in its foundation and irredeemably racist, patriarchal and exploitative, and this is then the premise for the conclusion, not a programme of reform, but it programme that it has to be abolished. So you have things like abolitionist teaching abolish prisons abolish. You know that

institution abolish the unit it states as a kind of historical entity itself in some cases and in italy, the foundation for not a kind of responsible look at history, we are trying to understand the bad and the good trying to sort it out. They say even- the declaration, even this a war, even the civil rights act, are remnants of white support. missy are remnants of domination, our mechanisms for racial control, and I think that those That's that's in some ways a subtle distinction, but I think it's very important, because the story that I think is accurate and how I think that that history should be taught in schools. For example, is that? You should take an honest and hard look at the history of racism, slavery, segregation and justice, etc. But you should also waste those historical injustices within the context of the country's highest ideals. First kind of decline,

in the declaration codified in the constitution, fought over and and and consecrated in blood in the civil war and then put into kind of specific legal practice in the civil rights act. That's always moving towards the principles of freedom and equality that we're really they found the essence of our society. You know not racial injustice, exploitation. We don't live currently in a slave accuracy, as some kind of recent years have argued that the law language is is very important and it's very important to make those distinctions, because now, what we ve seen, is precisely what you're suggesting there there now conflated All of these things together to try to conceal the true nature of their philosophy and christopher the way you describe their abolishing prisons. Abolishing the united states, the the civil rights actors

is. It is a remnant of white that all of that sounds insane right to normal person to a normal, reasonable person. I who still true my right, I really hope so. I have no doubt that it's true, I think the vast majority of the public completely wouldn't buy into that. So if that is the case and let's just say for the sake of argument, say that it is insane and it's crazy, how has it happened that in a very short period of time, this ideology It has not only become popularized in in a small minority of people who talk about it, but is actually now bleeding into our institutions. How has that happened? While I think there's a there's, a there's, a cheap key mechanism that you have understand to explain that this is still a very much a kind of numerous I minority position, a very few people subscribed to critical race theory. Very few people in the pot general public support

maurice theory, the latest pulling data shows that by nineteen percent margin, americans who have an opinion about this, oppose it, and this includes atinas and asians, that oppose critical race, darien schools by it. two to one margin, I'm so it is deeply unpopular. It is. It is a very kind of small numerical minority position, but the people who are true believers- the people who are the most fierce advocates for this philosophy, are in those bureaucratic positions, predominantly in public institutions, so government jobs where they can actually impose this without the consent of voters without the consent of parents without the consent of the public. They can implement it in many cases, unilaterally through a bureaucratic process. So you have all of these kind of woke bureaucrats in public school.

In municipal governments in state governments, in the federal bureaucracy everywhere, as I've documented in my investigative reporting that are really taking these ideas and very astutely, very shrewdly they ve then covered them in a euphemism. So instead if the revolutionary theory to abolish capitalism, they're, saying equity, inclusion diverse, Very nice, very soft sounding words that are in themselves kind of unopposed able, but then under Neither of you actually look at the documentation, even in fortune, one hundred companies of all places, their laundering in these more kind of red. Missionary principles these these, these more ram. go ideas agenda That's what we're seeing- and I think that a lot of it is this this. This confluence of of of public bureaucracies. Apathetic citizenry

and then these ideologies that have leaked out of the university system or maybe not leaked out actually been been exported from very deliver. the from university systems to Kayser twelve education to fetch a federal state and local bureaucracies book. Wouldn't you say kristen her as well that in some ways the fact that this is come to pass It shows that america that there is still a problem with rice, they still anger that surrounds it and what we see of critical race theory. Is people trying to explain the ingest, this is that they still see in america yeah. I would take a different in more cynical view. I actually think that if you look at the pulling data from from Gallop and others, for example, the kind of racial attitudes, the idea of and if is there a kind of racial harmony is irrational integration. Is there a cooperation and trust between racial groups now to stay

was actually very high as as recently as ten years ago, it was roughly seventy percent of white americans last summer and a high sixty percent of of african americans believe that race relations in the united states were good, starting in about twenty thirteen twenty fourteen in continuing today to take today, those numbers have plummeted. They ve been reduced by roughly how ass. So you have a very paradoxical situation where you have a kind of progression of aid legal regime of equality overtime that somehow peaks in the kind of two thousands and then mysteriously just absolutely plummets among all racial groups and I would say my hypothesis again, it's very hard to kind of move this and a social science method, but I think that my offices as that critical race theory is designed and has effectively achieved, not to explain his the history of racial and justice, not to

reveal the truth about rachel attitudes in the united states, but actually to perpetuate a sense of division to to instil this idea that we can be separated into oppressor and oppressed classes, and to revive some of the ugliest tropes and ideas from the kind of racist ray science of the nineteen twenties things. racist centralism like collective guilt, like me, segregation and then re implant them in our institutions, of course, under different pretext with different stated Yes, but this is what we see. We see, for example, and crass classrooms, where students are being told that they are There is a member of the oppressor or the oppressed class based on their skin color there being too that they are a guilty and responsive for historical crimes committed by people who look like them in the past and they are also in the process of teacher training, for example an employee training programmes.

Adults are being separated into separate facilities, separate programmes based on race? And I think that this is very ugly. It's it's very much counterpart this and if the polling gotta is accurately reflects the kind of the the the the spot, or the hold of this ideology is actually tearing people apart, rather than bringing them together and christopher what would you say, those people who would give you the first amendment artie argument, which is not we have freedom of speech in this country, You know this is a fairy just snipe marxism, just not libertarianism. Aid should be free to beat like any other theory in all public schools in our economy, he's in all universities, yeah, well I you know I'm I'm obviously or maybe not. Obviously I should make it clear. I'm a I'm, a supporter of the first amendment. I think it's essential there's a reason why they put it first of all the amendments, but I I think that you, you have to

stand that this isn't a freedom of speech issue. Of course, if Europe, the race stairs. I support your right, a hundred percent to go on the street corner to publish in the newspaper to write a book about critical race theory to two to preach it as radically as you as often as you want, but we're talking about a context of publicly funded and publicly governed institutions like, for example, cater tools, schools K. Twelve schools are government entities that are that are beholden that are responsible and accountable to taxpayers. The first amendment in the case on its own kind of intention, was designed to pay individuals from the government not to protect the governor, from the individuals or government from the voters. So as these institutions function, they include an X. certain ideas, we don't have we're not tee Jeanne kindergartners eugenics, we're not teaching them for we're, not teaching them flat. Ism you can,

per preach, all those things from the street corner. You want as a first amendment right but you're not entitled to include in the official state curriculum. That is a political decision. It's a political process its determined by state legislatures, its determined by local board school boards and boards of education. So they get it side. What is in the curriculum? What is our out of the curriculum, a teachers? This is kind of first amendment can of jurisprudence case offer for me The years they dont have an unlimited first amendment right in the classroom, its restricted because their public employees, so idea that somehow you know of one group gets through the exclusive and and right to use taxpayer dollars to promote their private. theology within public institutions doesn't stand up to scrutiny

and christopher, tell us a little bit about some of the work that you ve been doing, because I said at the top of your introduction that you are one of the most prominent critics of this. But actually, I think, is more accurate to say that you are one of the people who has been doing the most to actively oppose all of this. In institution. So you ve had some success in that area. Tell us alone, but about that. Yes, I you know it really all started for me with the d, the reporting. I think that I'm it's one thing to criticise a theory where you and say this is it. This is that this is going to raise theory. This is what it what it holds. This is why it's wrong: you enjoy in a very abstract argument, and you can win or lose. Sometimes it's very unclear who wins or who loses and those kind of debates. Whereas my approach in my strategy and then my kind of skill set was too actually expose the most agreed yes and sometimes salacious examples from public school. So just very quickly. You have

teaching third graters and cooper tino california to deacons, drop their racial in sexual identities and then rank themselves according to a hierarchy of power and privilege. So dividing no eight year olds into oppressor and oppressed You have the kind of system in in buff whoa new york teaching cater twelve students- that quote all white people, perpetuate systemic racism that all wealth, derives from slavery and that white people are called unfairly rich and then sharing video, a video. harmonization of dead black children. This is too kindergartners two four and five year olds. Speaking to them beyond the grave warning them that quote racist police. could murder them at any minute. Mac instilling this kind. Ray space terror in in in small children or even the high school in new york city, that sent an email to white directed to white parents. That said that

we need to become quote white traders to betray the white race and then to advocate for quote white abolition. So abolishing the white race, which is an idea from critical race. Their incredible studies those are just three of the examples and end the idea so basically cut through the gas lighting cut through the line cut through the obfuscation cut through the euphemisms and show people. You know these stories did about two hundred fifty million direct media impressions and the united states. They re he brought this issue to the forefront. You see the kind of thing news numbers mentions of critical race theory following my kind of work, and exposes just abs skyrockets and then now what you ve seen is a fight on three fronts. There are legal cases, some of which I have been involved in helping that are trying to get it. Supreme court to show that these practices are not only morally wrong but actually illegal and unconstitutional. There is legislative effort we ve now

asked state legislative bills or state board of education, resolutions in nine states, covering seventy five million americans a banning, critical race, theory, indoctrination in public K, twelve schools, that's a huge victory and then we also see this grass roots revolt from parents all over the country. You ve probably seen many clips on twitter parents going preserved at school board meeting saying I don't want you to teach my kid that he's no press I don't want you to keep teach my kid that she is a member of the oppressed get this out of the classroom, did you talk about prince race theory, which is pretty, must not be taken here, is how to hate each other. How did this life is pretty much more than all come down to you deliberately teeth. Here's what you why you got a better you, because he why you can hardly Why do all the blood?

down as but how do I have to know the breathing of senior arrests have I get? This is white parents, black parents and asian parents, latino parents native american parents, parents from across the political spectrum, is a broad base. movement, its grass roots decentralized, and it is totally organic in its presentation in nature and they are really holding school boards accountable and I live in outside of seattle, washington and one of the bluest kind of air. as in the country, if not the world an to my surprise, something that I wasn't directly involved- and I saw in the paper that my local school board had voted for Five: zero to ban critical raised their indoctrination and our local schools so This is something that is is happening at honestly, be very frank to a degree that astonished me. I mean I when I started this. I could not imagine that it would snowball so quickly and and and rack up such incredible results in

this kind of time for him. Well, I would argue that, given some of the mean what you ve described, that is what I mean is atrocious. It is, it is horrendous. What you're talking about. So he kind of make sense that a lot of people would thankfully be a poster, but there's a question I have for you because you talked about you yourself, moving from being on the left to being more right, leaning, you ve talked about talking about these. He's on fox news, etc, neither francis awry or right wing or on the right, and I we we believe in. What are you asked? Some people would probably say you are some people. A lot of people on the left would say we're on the right yeah. But the thing is they don't know what you're talking about. So I guess the interesting question for me here would be francis and I would obviously completely against what you're describing that four year olds in five areas being talked about the racial gill, I mean it is just a atrocious, but

what is wise, a right wing thing to oppose this. I don't understand. I mean there are plenty of reasonable, sensible, intelligent people on the left. Is it what's? What's a good left wing argument against the stuff? Well, I mean There's a good at what I think you have to distinguish between the kind of hard core racial is laughed and then the kind of classical liberal or centre left liberals and in full. A lot of centre left. Liberals oppose this, and among independence, for example, people who can have don't go hard, one way or another seven, Two percent of american independent voters oppose this ideology in schools, and I hear from people who are on centre left all the time in places like san francisco in places like new york city, where there's a hey, I'm a good democratic I've been a lifelong kind of left, leaner

but this is insane we have to get the stuff out of our schools. We have to get this that out of new york, city, private schools, for example, or or or or los angeles, public schools, but those places aren't amplified, and those voices, unfortunately, are not attached to any kind of political power, because the people who run began a party machinery, the intellectual machinery of the left in the united states current we are very much on that hard racial is left flank and they we could care less and actually viciously can undermine the people on the centre left. So the though it's not a question of well a lot of centrally left people oppose it, but the We reason we're seeing results in more conservative school boards, more conservative districts. More conservative states is because those voters that make up a strong majority- it's in a ninety percent plus of conservative voters, oppose this. They have rights,

course through the political system, because they can lobby their state legislatures wicked witch get to pass bills. They can lobby their local school boards, which are more responsive, but I think we're seeing that even now shifting, where certainly right has basically shored up this sighed and said no, we're not gonna do this, but we're seeing. Even swing districts, even school districts in kind of purple area. So halfway between democratic republican they're, starting to flee centre left. Voters are coming out, strong latino voters are coming on. Strong asian voters are coming out, strong too pose this ideology, I think we're see, a shifting the battlefield, the shifting of the the landscape of power, and I think that my will. I hope rather my my hope is that we can continue to build this coalition that spans from both the right to the centre left that encompasses all different racial and ethnic background. to really come with a united front. To say this is not necessary,

early just they left right issue. Of course it is but this is an issue of of of of fundamental principles about what it means to live in a constitutional republic in the united states of america in two thousand and twenty. One we have the vast majority that opposes this. We're not going to let a a very small group of I of committed ideologues have embedded themselves in the bureaucracy override the democratic will of american voters were actually gonna. Stop this we're going to put our foot down together. I francis do you want to in another language. Nor might poem english euphoria com, time might argue, shall think about it. You could learn how to save penalties in italian, lay weight, if you do want to learn and language, because maybe you want to have a new experiences live in another country, or maybe you just want to open your mind more mines, enough opening up

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for you know who I pulled it out and find your absolute coming. They bread effect No, no. I mean gary right now but is offering our listening six months, free with the purchase of a six month subscription without promo code, which is of course trigger go to uk dope babble, dot com, slash plight and youth promo code trigger for an extra six month. Brief! That's! U k! Don't be a b b, l thought c, o n forward slash play promo code trigger christopher disclosure on the former teach and certainly were on a mention in every episode. The teaching is it is. It is a phenomenon, difficult job you ve Look after the kids per story. You gonna teach him you ve got to make sure that they all might progress. You know this maybe once more a dead, there's gonna be ones who fall behind

understand how they have the time to teach all this stuff and be able to make shouldn't. Kids get around it education. How can they do that? Well, you know it it, really is kind of a really interesting thing. That's happening, and I think it would maybe illuminate the answer to your question. Is that There are two kinds of schools that I've seen him my reporting that are pushing the critical race there. There are the very elite affluent big city schools, including private schools, so the kind of places where it's enough fifty thousand dollars a year, maybe thirty thousand pounds. I don't have the exchange rate a year, attend these schools? I mean these. Are you know the most affluent only places in the country they have adopted it because they in my reading. They believe that being fluent in the language of weakness is essential for advancing in the ivy league, institutions is essential for advancing in elite work, places like consulting firm sent and and government and politics and journalism, so their preparing their kids

to be kind of. You know, throwing molotov cocktails into a police car, although that does sometimes happen even among this set, but their preparing them for this kind of meritocratic system that has been really that has grafted itself onto. But you also see it and I think, and like whatever, who cares? I really don't care personally what they do in elite, private schools. I think they shouldn't do it, but it's really up to them and their kids are going to be fine, but where it really concerns me and frankly, enrages me is in the big city, a poor school districts with high rates of of educational failure. So, for example like like buffalo, which I talked about also philadelphia Pennsylvania, these are big or

in school districts. High number of black students in those two courses, their teaching, a very aggressive kind of critical race theory based curriculum in the case of buffalo, from from pre k through great twelve, they ve overhauled their curriculum and the tragedy, and the thing that I think should infuriate voter and parents had families is that this is a school. These are school districts where, in some schools, their literacy rates are less than twenty per cent, sometimes less than ten percent. So kids, who are unable to reach basic proficiency in reading and writing. You have sometimes eighty per cent of students that are function molly illiterate by the time they graduate from their kind of primary school or middle school. Education. So you have, you know, an educational crisis have kids and fit sixth grade that are illiterate, that have been in school, for you know

Six thousand hours of classroom time. They can't read can't right at a basic level and yet there pumping them full of ideology, and the cynical read on this, which I think unfortunately has A lot of truth is that this is used as a diversion tactic, to shift the focus away, the failures of these of these institutions, the failures of teachers unions to fail there's of the school districts, the failures of principles and classroom teachers in these districts and then shift the blame onto the abstract forces that are the kind of is almost a kind of a safety valve mechanism escape voting mechanism. Well, it's not that our schools are crumbling and dysfunctional and, failing to Teach you how to read it's actually, the fault of of of of of white supremacy, the fault of anthrax, centralism. The fault of you know what, whatever kind of kind of credit

evil villain of the day is an end. I think that to me is just is unconscionable and dumb, and stories for me where they really the most tragic, the most difficult, the most heartbreaking to report, I can imagine so what does the effects of this type of teaching on the kids today? I respond to it on a look cause like I said I do there's a lot of tom where I taught kids stuff and they went out and they you. You could have awesome some four million dollars- and they wouldn't have been able to answer that just your teachings time to get up on you, that's. Why is no longer a teacher meetings? Yeah right right now? You have outlined above a voluntary audience. So this is better than you do have the captive audience, but it's in some it's too early to tell long term what happens. But I can share with you some anecdotes that could suggest maybe where it's gone. I spoke recently to a father actually, who kind of

a clip went viral on youtube. I met him in arizona when I was giving a speech a black father, accurate, a number of interracial couples, black white couple, and- and he said- hey- you know this year after black history month, where they were doing the black lives matter, curriculum they're, doing the critical race theory style curriculum. My kids, who are you, know, half half black half white, I kind of present as black. I guess as the way they would say it and they came home and even my ten year old was terrified he couldn't eat. He couldn't sleep, he would come back into the bed with with his mother and me, you know which he hadn't done in years and I finally talked to him and asked

what happened is like I'm terrified. I'm scared I feel like I'm going to be hunted down by society. I feel like police can murder me at any moment. I feel like I should hate. You know. You know people who look like mom and the father was just kind of horrified he's like what are they teaching in black history and then started going to the school board advocate, and he said you know they're trying to fill my kids with fear what my kids, with a sense that they can accomplish if anything in life a sense that there'll be forever oppressed. But this gentleman said look I grew up in in in in in the hood and in in watts, compton california. I know what it's like to struggle. We live in a good now we ve moved up. I want to feel my kids with a sense of possibility, a sense of inspiration, in a sense of potential in this actually in the name of doing good there actually doing harm to MIKE. It's another couple said that this curriculum interracial couple said that

This was ripping their own family. Apart that it was, it was having their kid. coming home. Saying you know, should we hate, grandma grandfather, who saw a white person, The shit you know, is he an oppressor? Is he a bad person, as he is one of the you know, people that wants to you know, harm us or hurt us, and, and and really just kind of we could had their parents not intervened and explain them the truth rift these families apart. So I think that on that side, I've seen damage done. And then also you know, I reported on a store in Portland Oregon along kind of reported feature where I think that there is a direct line from the kind of ideology that's being promoted in schools to the rioting, disruption, anti far, attacks against property and and people, and you had, for example, in portland. This was documented by andy- know: who's a greater reporter on this that actually, I think for or three or four

portland public school teachers. People in elementary schools and middle school icicles were arrested for crimes. and felony crimes of rioting, including violent crimes during these political protest. So this is again it's early. This stuff in many places is still very early, but the early signs are very bad. They should be a kind of red, spinning warning light for any administrator or teacher. That's considering this kind of curriculum and the stuff here talking about their christopher, I mean I I have to say I find it fine, because I I this is really the question I want to ask you is: are you optimistic and are you positive because one, I think- and I play the movie forward if you teach a generation of young people, this racial animals that map so neatly onto are hard wired tribal prejudices that eggs within all human beings. I wonder whether

and there is a positive outcome here. Do you know what I mean? It sounds really scary, yeah it it it does it. It sounds very scary. It is. It is very scary in some regards, but ultimately I am optimistic and I'm optimistic, because what we've seen in the? U s, and hopefully elsewhere. I don't really know, but at least sense kind of february march of this year, the last three months and we ve seen an incredible awakening of parents of voters of school board. Members of politicians have state legislatures. People are taking this issue very seriously and what I would like to see, I think what is a a hopeful hopeful vision, but also a very realistic vision, something that is That is a it kind of already happening. If you will is that we will see in our federal system or fett kind of federalist system of government will cease

its pursuing very different courses of action, the curriculum in california and oregon and washington state very liberal states will look very different from texas, Oklahoma Florida, which are more, servant of states, and they will embark on this experiment. Do you want woke politics, as the founding knowledge of your education system- do you not and over time what results did those yield? And I think that eventually people will see that this is not the way that this doesn't a lead to better outcomes and- and I think crucially, and one thing that I find it important to say is that in the u s, despite how the can MSNBC the new york times would like to present it at. This is not a really white black She has already said

latinos and asians- oppose this style of curriculum by two to one margins in the polling. Data of african americans support it, but by just to have, I believe, a five point margin very narrowly kind of almost fifty fifty. I think that will shift over time in our favor as people understand what this is really about. It's really a question of of It is going to create better outcomes for kids, and I think most americans now understand. It won't create better outcomes for kids, but I think if you take a step back and look at critical re staring, you know critical race there. If we We implemented the policy, the radical and extreme policies that critical race theory has formulated my argument- and I wrote a policy paper about this for heritage foundation- was just a think tank here- the united states that my argument is that it would create negative outcomes. You know the critical race theorists opposed merit based education. They oppose

it's kind of, in some cases, even even assigning grades, which are a racist, a racist practice, and so they oppose kind of merit based achievement in education. They oppose a nuclear family structure in many of their many of their papers. They think that the nuclear family structure, which social science has shown definitively kind of left and right to be the essential precondition for people who grow up in rough circumstances, for them to move up the income ladder they all. Who oppose entry level work which they say, is again capitalist exploitation. So when you take away those three building blocks and when you teach kids at those things are not only not important but actually evil and wrong and oppressive, you take away merit based academic achievement. You take away a strong family structure, and

draw a household, and then you take away the desire to get into the labour force to start working your way up the income ladder you're going to create a kind of more desperate and and more dire situation, especially for people and low income groups, especially for racial minorities. So I think critical race theory is a recipe for disaster. All that it does is help bolster the social status of multiracial elites. Academia and governmental policy making, but if it were implemented, would be devastating for the kids, who need a who are desperately need the most help, who desperately need a society that will list lift them up its Very, very, very two points on listening to you and I'm thinking where the teachers in this Are they all blindly following it all they being dictated to by the union's what's happening

I'll tell you in my reporting, I've talked to a lot of teachers and and and I'm to remember yes, every single one of them. I did maybe thirteen fourteen reports on schools. every single one of them requested complete anonymity because their free, that is their name and their voice, or their face is attached to opposition to critical race. Darien schools, they'll get fired, they'll get ostracize they'll get bully, the protesters will show up at their house, intimidate them and their colleagues will scream at them, which has happened in a number of cases that I've reported on and so they're scared, even teachers who deeply oppose it in a principled way, are scared to speak, doubts and then on the top. What we've seen is that the largest teachers' union in the united states, the n e, a national educate education, association or educators association, which represents three million teachers in all fourteen thousand

districts just this summer, at their annual conference of their annual congress, voted in committee as an institution to support implementing critical race theory in all fourteen thousand schools? tricks and offered to states. They ve gone on the record by name critical race theory, saying we support this. We want to put this everywhere and they ve also approved funding to attack people like me to attack journalists and writers and intellectuals who are opposing predatory staring they are going to put their part of their three hundred and seventy five million dollar annual budget into attacking us into intimidating us into coming after us. So these institutions, which I don't think, reflect the majority of their members had been captured by this ideology. It's a top down revolution, it's a rare lucian from above its an elite driven revolution, and they to impose it from,

their position of power and privilege, ironically, onto the rank and file people of all different social classes, all differential backgrounds who, by large majorities christopher other than the revolutionary mindset which you ve detailed, surely that they must have. Some good arguments on the. What would what would what is the strongest argument in favour of introducing this stuff in school that people make? This is a good question. I mean it depends right. I mean the the the Mrs right, I would say that the premise is a strong premise: the premises the united states has history of of racial injustice and we should make sure to do too to look at look at history through them lands of racial injustice to illuminate areas where the It states has fallen short of its of its ideals of freedom and equality are rising. Virtually everyone in country, if you put it to them that way, if you implemented it in those terms, would would support it but the.

Problem? Is that that is really a kind of and if my in bailey a kind of a kind of present patient argument that really masks the real content of it because You know you, you can say that I would agree with that. I think both of you would agree with it those parents would agree with it in current, including conservative parents get. We should really take a look at this. This history. We should really teach kids the deepest injustices in our past, but also the progress that we made. Torture, rising those ideals that I think you get almost universal support. But the critical racers are deployed that argument disingenuousness but then impulse. Doing things like like cigarettes, employees like telling children that they're, inherently oppressive, like telling you know,

all young people that there have a kind of blood guilt or ancestral guilt or collective guilt based on skin color. Those things aren't connected those things, those conclusions, those practices don't follow from the premise so I think that what we could do dear radically- although I am not optimistic about this, is we could say, hey look. We agree on the premise. We agree on the premise that we should take a look at these issues. We disagree with your conclusions, but let's try to come up with a better curricula. Better practice from that common premise and to the extent that its possible you're never going to convince the people on the fringes to the extent that its possible get it orange majority of of citizens, whether its locally or or or statewide or nationally to green on a new approach to address these issues in a way that is kind of broadly a popular and reflects reflects the truth. Frankly, that reflects an accurate reading of history. increased for what would you say to those people gonna write? This is very.

Fishing is an episode, but I live in sweden now give you whatever and it's not going to affect me I don't know of- and I think I don't know- and I I would defer to you guys- did to you too in the uk, but from what I've seen from what I've been reading these are. You know I'll tell you what this out bizarre put it america has, has demonstrated one immense capacity and one immense talent we take things from all over the world. We weep. Package them into commodities, and then we export them to every country on the planet, I mean you can go to a kind of remote tibetan village that has just achieve electricity and watch Michael Jackson. Dance videos buddhist monks. I mean that's actually done that. I mean it really is exterminator there each of america's cultural commodity. So if it has

successfully been exported to youth in the uk into sweden and other countries. It will be it's coming and I think even the president of france. I saw that he said if France is being Affected negatively by all of these american ideas, which I thought was was a maid a kind of a dodge francis added share about ideas, but but I think that it certainly coming even in relatively homogenous societies like this candidate, in societies I dont. It'll, be immune to this or this politics once it takes hold once it gains a foothold in institutions, it's very hard to dislodge it's very hard to disrupt and seems to spread quite easily at christopher, wherever we are going to have to wrap up in a in a few minutes, but before we do, I want it's a talk about the role of the media and all of this because yeah you and I interacted recently on twitter over the long thread, I wrote about the falling trust in public institutions, particularly the media. What do you think has been

role of the media in advance, this theory or opposing at all. You know that the role of different media led some different sides in having this debate on, facilitating the conversation- oh buddy, I mean I think the media is the media is is, is the if academia is the the flame you know if academia is the origin of flame media is the accelerant? You know it's like the lighter fluid, that's being squirted over the top of the flame, the media has has done, you know an end in an incredibly bad job, promoting the stuff you see the numbers from the social sciences that Goldberg, where he looks at the terminology like systemic racism, racist, racist white supremacy, white supremacist, it's kind of like movement, Abou hovering in the ninety. Ninety two thousand two dozen thirteen, whom I ain't just go straight vertical on the grass, because the that the media basically adopt

did the terminology from critical race theory, and then this repeated it so many times in their narratives in their language, in their concepts in their terminology, in their tweets that it be Came this kind of mythology, this new mythology for the kind of centre last or or or liberal laughed in, a country, and I think that they mainstreamed or main lined these ideas from academia into mainstream politics and and now I think it's just absolutely ridiculous. What they're doing I mean the media promoted this ideology and now that turns out to be unpopular now that there's a revolt in public schools, a revolt and state legislatures. Now there retreating from there own language in saying no, no, no! This is just accurate history. No! No! No! This is just equity. This is just inclusion with its none of those other thing. that the media have been promoting for years prior. So,

I have. I have. I am a man of little faith and then I'll say you know even even me Personally, I mean there is about to make That's where I was just getting relentlessly and attacked in the media the washington post published. An stories calling me by name and trashing me. The new york times Multiple full pieces, profiling me- in a very negative light, the land MSNBC joy read every night for a while. I was putting my tweets on screen and trying to yell at me about him. I mean they are really dedicated to the narrative. There try any tactic there. There dinner try any tactic to discredit opposition to gaslight the public to obscure the true nature of their ideology that they ve created. But I think that the american public is too smart and they see what's happening in their local schools. They see the documents that that are being released to the in in the media by me and others:

They know that this is bad, even if they don't understand the kind of nuances of the theory they know instead, Surely they know intuitively that this ideologies spells trouble for everyone spells trouble for our country, and I think that they are you know it one. One good thing you know: can referencing your your tweet threat about loss entrusted to me in some ways. This is good. I mean the media deserves to be trusted less and it creates the opportunity. Four programmes like yours, for programmes that are independent to actually feel that gap and build real trust with the audience, not just getting fire hosed by the new york times with their. You know, endless stream of of gas lighting and delusion didn't you know what christopher We told you about how you were getting trashed by the atlantic by MSNBC by the washington post by new york times. I'm like we could get some of the so I'll die like pulling up my tweets old MSNBC ever know. You won't guys. Didn't I tell you

but you know I hadn't. I've never had faster audience growth when I work with under no really I mean, like you know, in an opposite, It's it sucks. It sucks to get attacked and touched again everyone for posting your picture and yelling at you and in the media, but I'll tell you that the the the benefit of this is it the elevate you into a position where then you become the person that is, that is that people rally to- and I think that I've for every person that was you know that that they pose weighted down to oppose me. I gained at least ten people that that rallied to the cause it said. Actually, no. This is right. I'm an oppose what the what the kind, of course brent legacy. Media is doing so yeah. I would recommend it. Don't do anything to bad, but certainly if, if you can get some sleep pieces.

ultimately they say you know. I don't think this is true. I think there's a there's a there's a this is ninety five per cent you're there you're all press is good press. Not all press is good. Press but most press is good press. I think that yeah, that's absurd. We re. Think prince Andrew would disagree with that. it's a good point you make about it, because if, if you think about it from a normal point persons point of view, if you're being attacked by disgusting people, No one trusts that probably says something about you right and I think that's kind of the position we ve got into alert, given that what you described, I think, is really important to work. They are doing and congratulations on on getting the spotlight onto this issue because As you say for us. Certainly here in the uk we see when we see protests on Austria. You know be alarmed protesters saying to police officers, don't shoot,

police officers are unarmed. In the uk there was one person and on the whole year or two people, I think you were unarmed, who was shot and killed by the police. One of them was a terrorist who just stab several people, we don't have that problem, but the ideology is being imported and, as you say, america is very good at exporting things, good and bad. So all power to you keep up the great work and, as always christopher, we ve got one more question for you. What's the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be who hazarded question you know I think well, I guess this is maybe maybe emerges from my own interest, but I think it's important, I think the kind of intellectual counterculture- and I think, I'm part of It- I think you're part of it. We do a very good job at at at kind of rebutting or refuting the arguments of the work we keep it and we do a very good job at kind of.

supposing it there's all these great publications, but I think we need to spend more time talking about will what do we do about it, because it's one thing to you know destroy our and our opponents with facts and logic. You know like that, like that kind of like meme- that's great, you should do that, but There are in charge of all the institutions and political power and they are in charge of billion of dollars of taxpayer budget money. You know our facts and logic. Dont mean much because they control money and power. So I think we should get our hands dirtier a little bit. We should start talking about. Well what can we do about it? What our public policies that we could adopt, what our strategies that we can adopt? How can we actually move to fight from the realm of the intellect into the realm of politics and that something that I think I have started to do and and I've seen something very interesting. You have people now kind of The way schism in awakened of separating where there's

member of the kind of intellectual counterculture I d w whenever you want to call it, there's a certain continue says yes, get rid of this in schools and assert certain contingent, assess what we can do anything about this. That would be, you know we can exercise political power. We'd have to work with the mean mean bad, you know republicans and when we can't be caught, doing we still ultimately want? The you know the approval of the of the new york times. There is this: we division- and I think, I'd like to clarify those lines, I'd like to persuade as many people as possible to join me in taking into the realm of action but either way wherever you fall wherever you kind of shake out, we should all be expected to propose solutions and to propose concrete actions, because I think ultimately, we've done the reputation work, we've done the intellectual work and we can't just keep repeating it

I need to actually move to the next phase. It's interesting. You say that, because in the uk, as we talked about earlier, neither francis awry a conservative or right leaning really, but we had an election and at the end of twenty nineteen, in which, as a country overwhelmingly, we elected a conservative government, which showed plenty of lag on anti, woke staff, and all of that- and we have ended up exam

actually, where we started where all of this stuff is accepted. All of this stuff is going ahead then I think you're, absolutely right, and I I take your criticism gratefully in that I think a lot more of us need to start thinking about how to have an impact on this stuff. You know the free speech union here in the uk is doing some good work and organizations like counts away as well. That is something that really more people need to get stuck into, because I think, if you look at the the institutional capture of many of these places, you can get a politician into power, but if, if they are still beholden to what the new york times or the guardian says about them, you're not going to get very far. That's right, and I think that you know from my experience, there's some great folks in your area. Yeah counterweight to free speech

indian Eric kaufman at at at at birkbeck college, and you also have you know I I'm going to butcher. Her name can be bad and ok, yup yup didn't believable. I mean, I think, she's just the absolute firestarter. I love the clips that make their way over here. So We have potential and I think also you know. Maybe we can end on a note of unity. We need to revive the anglo american alliance. We need to get all of our people, we share the same values to exchange ideas, to exchange best practices to exchange policies, because we certainly have a lot to learn from one another, and I am grateful for the chance to speak with both of you. christmas. Thank you so much for coming on the show. If people want to find you own line or support your work, where is the best place to data yeah, follow

on twitter at real chris russo, r, u f, o or my website, which is christopher, roof, ho dot com. That's christopher r! U f, o dot com! I have a amazing community of small patrons and supporters certainly be grateful to have to add you if you're listening, fantastic, christopher thanks very much and of course the idea of reigniting the american and anglo american lines is great. Did you guys start paying taxes again now, thanks for coming on our guys, thank you for watching. We will see very soon with another berlin episode like this one or or show all of them go out seven pm uk time or two pm eastern time. The type to see you soon guys We hope even join this incredible into be remembered to subscribe and hit the bill button. So there

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