Hiring one, I'm doktor John white, whether these chief medical officer and host of the spotlight on series from where these health discovered podcast for this special to part episode, you'll hear up close personal journeys about being I noticed with a rare type of cancer, multiple, my lama, I started my lama nearly twenty five years ago and at that time the average exe. adaptation of life and someone with my lama was maybe one or two years, but even just in this last ten to twelve years, we ve double, if not triple the average survival of patients. I saw new patient this week. We have this conversation that, based on what we ve done over the last decade, my expectations that patients gotta live more than ten years listened

health discovered on the eye heart, radio, app or wherever you get, your pod will become becomes psychopathic, which is just social personality disorder. That's common! That's not The estimates that when we look at this is around one two hundred people as well this comment is our able exactly know and welcome to trigonometry on France's pasta. I'm constant interest in and this a show for you, if you want honest conversations with fascinating paypal. A berlin yesterday is a consultancy I traced the north over a number of very influential books, including the chimp paradox has worked with elite athletes has worked with psychopaths. His latest book is called a path through the jungle. Dr Steve Peters, welcome to trigonometry thank you for inviting me it's a real great pleasure to have the on, as I mean,

since some of the things that you ve written in the past have been incredibly influential in our culture, the way we think about personal development of form, thanks. I all sorts of other things, but before we Yet and all of that for anyone it doesn't know, you have a very big international law audience. Who are you? How are you where you are? What has been the journey through life? The lead you to be sitting here talking to us in a minute secular targets on I am concerned psychiatrist. So I'm a doctor, a medical doctor and I trained in mental health having gone through the system and then eventually ended up. I work with like passage you'd closely call them before I went along time in the annex, just a consultant anomaly, working with people with anxieties, depressions. Many of the comments says that we recognise an anti doping forensics on the back of that. I saw decided to explain to people how their minds function, because,

What I found a lot of people came to the door, didn't need a doctor. In my opinion, they needed to the stand himself understand what was going on in their head said. He didn't need medication, and so that led me to working half the time with medication, half the time with a model that chimp model to try and get people to stop managing their minds, emotions, thinkings behaviors, and it escalated. So I teach it should for the university professor there on the students loved the model they related to it. so did really behind the cheap products. They push me to say you ve got to write this and put it in a book. So what is the chin? Paradox tell everybody if you look at the brain, try and simplify, because obviously is very complex on the mind of a neuroscientist, and if you start doing this, you could be all week trying to just make. You know something of parts of the brain. So while Looked at it, you look on scanners, functional mri scanners, simplify

you end up with three systems in the brain, so in the faces, one all the sign. Yet here in the faces. What you find is within eight weeks, the orbit of frontal cortex just above your eyes, which is like a primitive defence system, is survival system, starts to develop eight weeks into feet life. in the center of the brain there are laws some areas which support the homage frontal cortex in making quick decisions for survival, but it does the same thinking bit and the final decision making so got a leader and calls on another team, which is, I called at the computer system, because that doesn't make decisions as such. It just fades back information to toss of influence, a decision, so that was two systems What we ve got is a problem as human beings is the third system came in. use its there, but not developed around two year old, which is why we were get in furious with young children who keeps and why everything's? Why? Because that part of the brain

now started to wake up and its now questioning. So you ve now got a separate system. Now the first system, the quick fire one impulsivity, really. We share with chimpanzees. We don't action the same system with a ring tongues guerrillas and bonobos, which are all under the the hominid greater great we done so. The chin was peculiar enough when published in two thousand and eighteen. But I knew this talking to me, especially back in the nineties. They said this only restrained you about o's and the chimpanzee, so I called it being a chimp because the chimpanzee uses the same behaviour not to choose and shares the same emotions when we use that common system, so that was where it came from, but that either system that came in a bit lit the party, the chimpanzee how's it, but tens never to use it and in fact, without some cruel alot of people, don't use it. They just worked with the chimps system, so life is very high. pulse evinced in gratification. Nobody consequence are planning, but when we

get around to the other systems, got the chance to develop. So if we promote interior all three euros for us, then we say that system starting to battle back So I call that a human system and tat was it that was the chin model. It and we have this in a change which is a machine which will act and think for us both We actually have arrived. We start around two year old enough when we start laying our memories down, so we don't have memories until we're about, for because our system can't do it so we arrive as inhuman and it's an alternative system to the chip. She have two options: now the let nature run it's course and be impulsive and work without or you cannot. She choose to wear the different system which works on rationality, logic, forward, planning consequence very, very different approach to life on the computer it's just neutral in the middle so making it simple, Jim human and a computer. They can both access. That's neutral ground programme it, but the chimps does have some better,

it's too. At night, I'm reading the book by Malcolm Gladwell welcome blink and he's talking about the importance of instinct and house a lot of the time. Your first instinct about something or a situation can often be the correct, went unnoticed. the chimp comes in yeah he's, never negative, and thus the title, the tim paradox is our friend the worst enemy. But if you stop, delving into and try to understand what it is doing is always on side. It's never negative. It's just that. We don't know how to manage it, so a lot of the work the chimp is doing is trying to say. If we do this well, maybe kay was your job is to civil hang on, there's no turning we're doing it. So the imps, never negative as such, but if we allow to run its working on jungle principles. So the chimp will work with dominance behaviors, it won't manager Well, I just fulfil them it may be insatiable. So, for example, the food is probably the commonest that use, because many people struggle with that. We don't eat the right things we eat too much generally, so you can see that

it's out of control driving the chimps. Not when the manager is just saying we ve gotta eat to survive was our jobs to say? Well, actually we only this much food to survive and manage the drive. The drive isn't bad, there's nothing bad about the chin. It just needs managing it can be destructive. don't manage it, and why is it that whenever talk about this state, why is it that we're not sat down and having this explained to us I'm someone who struggles with food and, in particular anxiety and the two are linked, and it's only when I was reading the chin paradox. A light bulb went off in my head and your current, but was not oh why desired c is just the chimp that's being unleashed and I'm not controlling it, and that's why I end up in the situation as I do. I behaved the way I do which ultimately destructive to leading a happy life. Ok, quick surgeon,

yes, sir one really big thing is yeah. No, no, no might support him or one of the things you just said there is is almost like a fatal error or something a bit severe to try and drive the point home, because you use the word control, you can't control. So if you kicked and I couldn't control my chimp there's no occasionally you failing in somewhere once you used that words, I avoid that work like the plague and I keep pushing the new book to say you manage the chip, which is a skill so you never gonna control your eating and you never gotten troll. Your anxiety, I don't want you to- I- want you to manage them, but I think what you, Implying immediately is that this battle going on why she didn't have to be perceived that way it can be the champion, friend, and he sent you I'm getting anxious right, you're, not getting anxious its being imposed upon you

instead of saying right this anxiety. You need to step back and say what is the chip trying to tell me, because the chimps sees a jungle so therefore light with. Our fates are worked with. If you said the going out to compete, you expect a chip to panic, that's pretty normal healthy because it doesnt realize it's just competition. As far as its concern you going into about likely die out So they'll get surveyor failings of apprehends anxiety, which the temple keep moving. Weather We then model ourselves out with a machine and start saying I'm an anxious person. Then we can work with it, become manage it. Because we ve blaming ourselves so brings in lots of them. A failure in guilt and instead sing right, we know who I am. We know the chimp is meant to be anxious, which meant to do that. Its doing great job, so, instead of being caught, during gauging the emotion we should be stopped and said. Thank you. Re motion. You ve got me

ocean. Let me explain what's happening so you actually relate to that part of the brain. Explain is just sport, you know an and then it depends on your beliefs. Now it gets com. likes nothing on the key things that says when people listen to this, the biggest thing its people is your unique only. You can work out what's going on your head, so the anxiety message from the chip in sport for one sports person may be very different message to another one. So when I worked with people, I've got to work out. What is it that their chimp is trying to tell them what their brain trying to say so as an example to try and bring it to life, You two could be late sports people both doing the same event lets a highly unlikely here. I thought you was elites. Boss budget said said the eight hundred metres and you both we're getting ready to anxious before it and it's just terrible and that's making decisions

in making in the race power, which is what you d expect, because the chip sound on beer, circa, going you are. But when you say why are you, why is your chimp getting anxious? What's the message for you, it could be that this defines you and if you fail on this, everybody knows that you actually failure. your chin on being extreme against around the point, not after all, be different to yours, which may be on trying to please my college, my parents, it then you start think you were hung on. That's very different reason: the chimps again anxious, so I can't then give you right. This is what we'll do. I can't do that may be of the spot. Psychologists of the species can, while I have to do it delve into your mind and worked with I didn't say was really going on. What are the underpinning beliefs? There was the agenda that your chimp is bringing to the table. So often you'll get spots, people trying to prove to themself, where you may get another group trying to prove to others and that's very different again so the work I do them

would be well, let's look at self esteem in the formal on and say: why do you need to use sport to do that and in the latter one you gotta start same well? Why would you want to prove your evil abilities to other people. Why do you want to demonstrate what what's going on so so you get different approaches, and I can't I can't work whether a formula I have to work with the individual sustained, we ve got we're talking about anxiety and we ve got the chimp and then the chip is always anxious because it said to sport. Dangers to spot calling on credit Yeah conquering always know, always anxious it's getting anxious when it perceives there's something not right like right. So it's perception is something's not right, but that because I could be because you, as the german, haven't on your job in tied in a computer up, so they made the belief that prodding the chin to chip, maybe just sat back relaxed. Then suddenly, one called the kremlin's the destructive beliefs it product so for exam

well, let's go back to that which is common, some laszlo self esteem. They dont fail as good as other people around failing that vulnerable right, so that the chimps now puts in the computer. You actually go to the other. And you will be found out so in business people I meet this every day and it'll be impostor syndrome. You know they wake up in the night. Often that's when the chips, that is most active and humans asleep, and then they famous devastating emotional got wrenching. Failing that, I cannot do my job they're going to find me I'm gonna make mistakes and fraudulent I'm an impostor. The chimp is doing its job. When it does that what should be happening when we were caught, we have to say right what the beliefs in my computer, you know. One of them can be that term people do this job, a perfect which is ridiculous, mistakes are things that can't be redeemed. You know, and now I've got to tease out exactly we got a boss who says you make a mistake. He sacked I promised to get with each other,

but but you can see why that belief is in there. But if the belief is come from you in the bosses and look if you make a mistake, which we make a mistake, but until we test that belief out there, trump's innocent- it's not getting anxious- it's is little. Gremlin- is a belief. This nice turfing out. So I like to tidy computers up in people and I used to explain. In other words, it was one of you I would accept find a minimum of five quite serious gremlins that you're holding onto which are causing problems. So, in your case, I still I struggle at times my chimp gets anxious, and I get this anxiety stay imposed upon me that you'll guarantee the you've got probably at least five or six very powerful beliefs which are really destroying you and you probably not aware of them until they get pointed out anything. Oh I'm thinking about and then we moreover does not make sense, that makes complete sense. So undergoing they'll guys

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Why days, because we just search for guys are going to give you ten percent off and free worldwide shipping and returns to take advantage of this incredible offer: go to rich dot com forward, slash trigger that's rich dot, com forward, slash trigger and use our special code, which is, of course trigger. So that being the case, will what happens with a panic attack. Is that the anxiety becoming too much is out the chimp overriding everything and going into a sense of melt down a panic attacks of different causes, but probably the commonest cause is

something has happened. An event has happened in your life, which has not been addressed and you haven't processed the event either practically or mostly emotionally. So I can give you an example of of situation where you might get a panic attack, and this is fairly common. So I've seen this many times you get. We do get sudden destined people in the forties very annexed, to draw the tragic, but if you ve got a best friend is in the forties who die suddenly and you ve never really thought about your own mortality. Suddenly it comes to your like friends, you mind, and if you don't addressed that unjust squash it down the mind now starts to kick So this is the mind saying: well you ve not process this soon reality the computers behind most of this, because it saying this is unprocessed material said- throws it back, which creates

im, saying there's something wrong here and we have to look at you. Look at your own mortality. Look at put in perspective. What happened, which is very rare for someone in the forties to die suddenly, and dont process that new belief is now very vulnerable, and this could happen at any moment and I've never really prepared myself. Then you, imagine that every soften, yet this sudden upon a guitar out of the blue nature. I'm trying to say you need to sort this out. The probably got a panic attacks get quite technical is so so, when you find that you can't find what caused them, you concept well the machine down, so the computer and gym can be brought down again just by simple techniques but ideal. If you find the problem, the trouble panics taxes, they have a ripple effect. So even when we sought the problem out say whether that was the problem and we sought it out than what you'll find as you still keep getting.

If the tax, so people sound, I'm not cured, has not worked, and you say well know that the with a panic attack words: it's like a learned behavior, so it keeps on happening, but it gets less and less and you just manage them as the in presents it, and you tried to remind the bread. We have dealt with this so there's ways of disengaging panic attacks and putting them in perspective, so pans to subaru a peculiar one of the the different and distant tracks in the bread to anxiety, anxiety and panic. Attacks, the pathways steve I spend most of my twenty- is an early thirties kind of doing all sorts of different personal development staff and learning to get out of my own way, and I find that very useful. But I was gonna ask how much of of this is societal because, for example, for me, I know that one of the things that I had to get out of my way in relation to was the feeling that I don't want to stand out. I don't want to create a youtube, show cause then hundreds

thousands of people are going to see it, and I remember reading something by desmond morris many many many years ago in which he talks about how the the fear of public speaking as a very natural thing, because, historically speaking, if, if a bunch of european is was staring at you in silence. That was not usually a good position to be in, and I think a lot of people feel some of those things now. So if you want to be successful, if you think that you want to create something, that's going to make an impact on the world is going to contribute to other people's lives in a positive way. How do you get out of your way so that you don't constantly watch what other people might think or say, or do, particularly in the social media world, that we live in now or everyone's unique! So again I can't give you are. This is the answer. I don't want to do that a member of the people can. I can't do that. So what I'd says there are different forces.

coming in here in the brain. So what you ve got when I look at the computer system is actually multiple areas offering opinions. So, for example, intuition is separate parts of the brain which reminds you what you ve experienced and recognizes it that's very different to their reward pathway, which says the unanticipated missy gonna be good news, that's very different to your anxiety tracks, which you saying this can all go wrong. All of these previous experience, His beliefs and opinions and behaviors are all coming together in japan, which are the most powerful but they fundamentally, your mentioning always does more issues, as the largest in the past was looking in saying I we just the naked ep. That was it that was his stance and there's too said. Not I'm saying the same thing: it's not new. We know that we have a party dominates. The troop drive chimpanzees in the wild must belong to a true that cannot be alone if there alone,

the very vulnerable from attacks, more troops or leopards, so that's their main enemies, so they're in trouble, so they must stay in troops. So what nature has done is given us. This drive to find and stay with the troop. But if you were the alpha mail in the troop you have to assess whether way worth keeping because, if way weak, when using ups useful resources, for food. You, you and you will explode us so a week. Mail would be excluded. That's a death sentence because another trip sunlight and take a meal. They might take females, but they want it was so, if you think about it, does this instinct that I've gotta keep pray myself to you? Otherwise, if you reject, never die so its extremely powerful. So therefore, our chief brain really wants approval from the people around it, but we ve gone further. Said our troops the whole world. So now we're feared of everybody and everything they say so ugly, mopeds

for example, when I used to teach the chip paradox modeling. students. I was doing that in the nineties. I didn't bring out till twenty twelve, and that was because I I figured in a sense much it was then well what the academics gonna say event. chimp and how ridiculous this naughty, but It got to the point where my human brain was saying you know really can't not do this, because I know how powerful it's been for a lot of people now humbles me a lot and I think we need to develop them. And those who resonate brilliant those. You don't find your story. Tat was rubbish, but one brought it outside of tat? Was my job and I said here's the deal. So now overriding the troop, because my chamber old, not everyone's in your troop, so dont worry about them. So I select my troop that gives me a protection from the world, so I dont see with all respect you too much, I don't know you so yo, given a caution say your opinion sounds off. It doesn't matter to me. You can't fact may, because

what I've learned is that doesn't sound off a little? I can't live your life, my worrying about the novel, but most people do in that. by social majors very powerful. But for me I said to my champion: when people are right to say it spoke has changed my life. I would be so happy. I was so happy and so much the great slack got his hand. Liberals would like us, I always go back to that. We knew there will be people criticise and light saying. None of us want to be hit by the major of any kind and and dragged through the mud or attacked or be little low, because that's something Jim would want to do for the region. I've given you because you are vulnerable suddenly and you want to be in the troop beloved, but one things are pushed this is the one in five row You know. We know that, no matter who you are somebody won't like you Once you work that out why you worrying adds to it,

wherefore in five for us and for your right as they let me ask you something else, because you bring up up what I think is that one in five love you regard millions, they know- and this is not really great people around I'm just kidding. We have actually lovely, find some very pleased with what I was gonna ask you is, I think, if you bring up a very profound thing about the world tat we live in today, which is the inevitability of tribalism, and we see in politics, we see it happening right now round the world with all the different conflicts that a kicking, often all of that we ve seen over the last five years in this country in terms of the political landscape, we ve seen it in america. We see it everywhere. That tribalism is a very powerful instinct. In human beings, for the reasons that you ve asked explained, what can we do

in the modern world to two to de tribalism ourselves? Can we do anything or do we just need to whatever I may I'm going back to what I said a region. This is that the right at the beginning, when it was like a light bulb moment to me back in the early nineties, where you think in a while these functional scanners are showing me something here that tribal instinct is not within the human being its within the chimp and not so important to distinguish we dont have not, hence we an alternative, thus wiser, right at the beginning, when your brain develops niche is given for whatever is an alternative and that's how we ve got out the jungle with this. I did towards our humans, which dont have prejudice which due respect diversity, which are peacemakers in general. You cannot. People have unpleasant humans, but till it about the chimps eyes, but in general, the role as we have an option here so far

I want to go with my chimp brain, it's likely to be divisive because it will form little groups and and curry favor. That's what the chimps meant to do again, not everybody's tiptoes that you know so most are built that were so where we all yes, we talk about. I come from this town or city of football is good example where you know this is my club and it gets very passionate and never give join that and I'm not sent ass wrong. I'm just saying I could beginning with food defer drives amazingly goaded kisses alive, but it does need managing and the same with the journey, for clubs or whatever, as long as you manage it and recognize it for what it is, it's brilliant you know long may it continue. But if you get it out of hand, then it becomes tribal and radiant healthy. So my question is concerning social media because we've touched on it a point steve. What do you look again? Debunk

nonsense that I'm speaking, if events in london, I just got a coffee. It seems to me social media appeals, to the very worst, the chip it appeals to instant gratification. You know a state of anxiety, cons, Italy wanting to be accepted, how We live in this world anti paul, chimps com when we have access to something that is trying to cut out the human and is always trying to activate the chimp in a negative manner the kennel to people. I want to do. One is disengage, I don't do several major suddenly what says I'm happy without it, but I'm an old guy. I think for young people. It's tough, but I think God that's what you said. What we really want to start instilling young people are nothing we're not doing this and love it say happen is emotional scale

to start discerning. Well, this is an opinion is not a fact. And we will get facts apparently presented which are inaccurate about is with us the get comments made which are in kind because their own kind people around this quite a lot of them. So we're not gonna change them. people paypal begun, learn. How do I manage them? Some thinking it most, the skills to learn how to manage social media really ought to be in and it doesn't seem we're doing anything in the end that violence, it is a psychological violence on people can be life. Frightening and, as we know it does people content their lives on the back of social media comments. So we have to accept that many people dont think out there just acting chimp at its worst unjust attack people without thinking what damage am I doing here what some people have to accept enjoy the damning some people enjoy going?

if the people ask just what they do so not every human beings pleasant, so you've got to be selective, but the thing is going back to what you're saying is we have to learn. That is yourself with a world that you can live in, don't try live in the real world because none of us really belong in it, because all you ve got a roman groups, chimps him whenever organ be on the same page, so tat your world with you create it will create the people you want in it and then enter the outside world, but don't engage the outside world and think and think it's going to be kind to you or doesn't mean rollover not going to I've done that I'm going out there, but I will surround myself some almost in a bubble when I enter does not mix is that a vick knows how much you'll know that makes a lot of sense. It does make a lot of sense. I think it's very important to have those people around you to create your world and to accept

When you step into the real world there's going to be unpleasant people there's going to be people trying to hurt you there's going to be because that's reality now you used to work at remsen now and again correct me. If I'm wrong, there are three high security prison hospitals in the new tax. I call members, but the other one is broad more, which is a more timers one week was like when you were working with these kinds of people. Are they lie costs by knowledge, While they are very different with the way they see the world the way they approach things and the way they behave and act. We have to be careful because I

I'd bet more education. If you look new scientifically at what we're cussing is someone who's psychopathic and we will send by that that they lack conscience. They write the rules for himself that very little empathy at all, so they see people that choose objects and they'll use people and that's common. That's not unusual, not all of them end up in ramps and many of them are social psychopaths and you will have met some. You definitely will where they will use people and it doesn't bother them, so they can be socially process. Sensing well, but they have no compassion and setting a conscience serve. The estimate at when we look at this is around one in two hundred people, s rights, This comment is our april exactly so, you can expect quite low destruction, and we know this. We know this. So when we look scientifically, the big interests is not

Where's, the brain which are different and in their brains, the biggest interests came years back when we looked at the connection, which is the chimp thinking brain the orbit of frontal cortex going into the amygdala now people have had they make delivered a very powerful battery of energy, which is our fight flight free. Is, and it has about seventeen clusters of no of neurons in circuitry in there. So it's very complex for tiny little structure, but but one of the big important parts as it influences our chimp very heavily in giving suggestion what you should do, the truck that joins them technically call the incident. Particulars is just a white fiber tracts. We don't how this happens, but if you look at the normal or typical,

it's, not call them, then it's quite a big cross section area and when you go down, you see little connections and it pays to be those connections, temper the message from the main dollar and give his conscience a puff, as well as of the parts of brain. When you look at the psychopathic brain, the cross, sections, tiny and there's no interconnections, so there's a structural difference, we found I bought you can get. Individuals have a normal bread and still have psychopathic traits, and they can sometimes be damage people now, I'm not making excuses, but it's very easy for those would have had supportive parents or reads: double childhoods to say: well, what's wrong with them birthing oversee the world that I entered, I mean

blue already a rough time. I mean really rough time as young people, and so the circuitry gets damage, but they could actually present with what we would says a normal circuitry or typical, and we can get that too to come round, but the can be damage done in young children. We know that the first about five six years of your life are crucial to get the circuits in a lot of areas functioning fully and if they don't, you can't recover that. So these people tend to struggle with emotions, struggle with impulsivity and it's structure in the brain. So it's not an excuse to start to learn to do it, but at a disadvantage to the rest of us Steve, I'm going to ask you you making a lot of sense and I'm going to ask you a question that is controversial, but that it seems obvious to me that the consequence of what you're saying is how we deal with crime is going to be affected by that understanding,

if there are certain people who commit certain types of genuine evil, heinous crimes, you're not going to educate them out of there. I know you're, not gonna, explain to them that this is not in our interest on. This is that's how the brain is wired yeah, again until simplifying try and get them ass. Yes, when you mentioned ransom, what you look for two people. Come in surround and when you assess them, and you say why I'm looking for is: has this person got a conscience that we can wake up our empathy? Have they gone through a rough time? I'm in life that we can compensate for it and what you do it I'm you work without persons, empathy, compassion, conscience, that's what you work a new build up and yeah. You can do that and then you would move these guys down. So they going a less secure and maybe even get back into society and don't forget to some people to under the influence of drugs when they do these crimes. So

You got it in a wise when the two people can move ground. Not everyone I know that's what I'm getting at levels do yeah right so, now we're saying: we've removed those who we come wait. What about the ones who don't pay to have a conscience or empathy and will repeat? it is in they do. Then we were different. It there's. No. Point in doing a compassionate type programme, because there's no end today now, instead of an ever engaged and the research shows that the more set psychotherapeutic, what you do, then the worst again clearly yeah there's no. What were at the moment the trying to find a cohesive analytical therapy got close, but we found It doesn't do any good and the answer is well you're trying to teach in all adults to speak, for example, but I will now cancelled. I am what we sang and then you can work with them on a behavioral programme because they won't do things detriment to himself. So if you say right, if you do this, the consequences is as follows. Then people will work with consequences, whether this,

possible, not whereas I hope that you know it moving those who haven't got conscience, all the rest of us can wake up our values or morals and and actually improve them, get them to come to the front of our minds but yeah the the what we're calling psychopathic, which is dissociate personality disorder and that individual from my opinion and you're not going to do much because the circuitry is not there right. So that's why I'm asking the question, because we talk on the show about societal issues, things that happened things that people talk about things that happened in the news and every time. There's this terrible crime. For example, a man tragically kills a woman or something like this. The the narrative is always what we must educate man, or we must do this or we must do that and I'm sure there's some value to that for sure. But I I just always feel like we're missing that one piece which is there's always going to be people who are going to commit these crimes and what we need to do is make sure that people are

acted from them. The day not released from prison cause we're really compassionate and emphatic and whatever etc light. What does your take on? All of that conversation, I think, degrade the overseer somebody's repeated finding all the time then with which is what we do. We do ten until we think they say if they never get safe. They stay says it's detention for life. If you ve got to demonstrate that there is no change in this person, you obviously oversee do trial the therapies you can you don't just decide this assembly psychopathic will give up you do try, but you think you I'm not going anywhere. I meant a lot process with assessment about think most friends excites and brings a psychologist would agree that you know if you ve got similar pays told a brain just will not function the where the rest of us do, then it would be unwise to chat to them. Do him then, when they're not possess that it's not a sensible things easier time doing whether will respond to consequence, but again,

it's a big, fail, dazed, and I think when you start doping into you, said this money, kill the woman. You got it. Really delve into this, because you know yeah, of course, is wrong and it's heinous. Yes, no doubt, but you have to start seeing other mitigating circumstances again, I'm not excusing acts, I'm not excusing, but I'm saying I can understand doesn't mean. I can't understand it and again for a lot of what you mean. Steve there'll, be a lot of people. Listening to this gone, what the hell is you on about, while, if you've had a really bad childhood. Let's say your father beat you to a pulp every night and continue this throughout your first fifteen years and you're not going to come away unscathed. Know it's exceptional. If you come out there smiling and said I can contribute your permanently damaged. So you may you may of anger issues because you ve been suppressed and suppressed, and so you ve got his anger, get start non, giving it any very so black and white terms

but then you can say somebody else comes in like the boss, who starts representing your father. Does it again? to do you do and humiliate you on and you can the anger spills and then we do We must show hijack person even know what they about to do pursues the committed the act that fall apart, because the realize it it wasn't the right thing to do. I know- and I know people will say well, that's just an excuse, but I feel like saying: well, you know: do we all act and behave appropriately, they have our lives. As we all know what my doing something wrong. Do we start punishing s house for that? You know it extreme. I agree something I'm compassionate to begin with but I will draw a line and say, okay with compassion and he goes to fun. It's really bad. That may be get beaten to a pulp by a dad. It doesn't excuse killing someone, but it's a fine line. I think you have to take individual cases.

And we tend to use the word psychopath and sociopath and we use him and we into changing what what is actually the difference between the two generally speaking, more is understood, is when we started really looking at the mind, which is probably going a hundred years now, we started looking at these individuals. That was the abhorrent and we we were recognising features they possess. The big ones gave new in the lack of conscience and lack of empty. So you He remorse in them. I repeat: behaviors and waste they initially. The feeling was that society is created these months. So there was this thing we ve created it because of light. The background to these your manager described so it would be known as social problems, so they were sociopath. So society was the behind it, as we started taken this on his doctors with gunners and started, seeing the brain and sing a while. The newer signs,

is actually telling us these are predisposed not predetermined, predisposed to to acting in a way which lacks compassion and empathy conscience. Then we started terminate terminology change, decide the pass said the social problems like about. It is really about the etiology another. What was the cause is its society that created the monster. Already, The monster was born and is just starting out and then to try and get you to ground. We will classify them, as does social personality disorders, not doesn't and give her an etiology just says this is what the behavior of demonstrating the cause we don't know, and that comes back to what one of the It ramped most to distinguish between the two, and so, if somebody is socially being built, come we going to do what society has created you know: can we take away the anger or whatever it is that they're going through, or is it that you know this appears to be genetic

im born this way. I just think it'll be very careful and not jump to conclusions and judgments and always assume you can help someone and be compassionate until it's proved otherwise and think. There's a point where you've got to say you know it's well, that's important plot. Once you get to that point, then you've got to lift the wool from your eyes. If, if that's what's been there right, Your question occurred to me, as you are talking, the evolution narrowly speaking. What is what is the evolution, rationale for the existence of psychopath. Is it the that other troop of chimps over there's, probably gonna, get a random mutation that creates a psychopath, and we need some of our own psychopaths to go and defend us against their side. Is that some of the kind of evolutionary background to this later what is the point of sacrifices? What am I am outside my failed every term. I think nature doesn't have to have a functioning trying something yeah. I remember that been passed. A psychopath, won't survive wooden leg,

become the alpha male, no, because they won't be liked by their subordinates. So the psychopaths won't survive. They'll be the the troop will go for them. So how? How? How do we still have the the capacities and how its evolution law whereby we almost cared for now. Don't we excuse a lot? Sometimes we allow, sir, and we know that this genetic, which appears is polygenic, so it means you can't are true. Diary of a psychopath won't breed psychopaths, but boats is genetic loading, so any one of us will carry some of the jains depends who you Mary, but obviously now they don't get eliminated, which they would a thousand as ago, they wouldn't people tolerate and his palm of violent then wait. We based off a nazi, that's a bad thing back way, but I'm sorry that the problem of that is that there is a bigger po because again because there will be still sexually driven nelson of three four five

children randomly was the rest societies moving towards like two children, three children or less so the polls is genetically would beginning. You read the fattest bright reaches psychopath nothing's happening again. That multiplying fantastic group wants to meet you again. Please debunk. Miss are worried about psychopath. You know, there's that they're more likely to be see owes are more likely to be successful hygiene to Ulysses, social psychopath because again just because you haven't got a conscience or not, and no empathy doesn't mean that you don't work to certain society roles, so I say more people won't be axe wielding maniacs. There then really rare their exceptional, but we do people who just don't seem to have any empathy or compassion that doesn't mean that and that there would be classed it under were if, if we looked at this tracked and several lady go, there's a psychopath, but that doesn't mean

that the necessarily a damaging it just means they dont have compassion ramp, they saw the one of a problem sacking people in saying. Well, that's death to get on with delight You know that they won't have that, but you can also get people who got compassion, empathy and still have to sack people and say yeah. It's upsetting is not pleasant, but isn't it if we're helpful, if you're a surgeon, if you dont have emphasis than you know it's going to be. You know going to be worried, protect surgeons, yeah, not psychopath easier, but all. But you know, if you're, in a high pressure situation- and you don't have empathy, isn't it kind of superpower away will not work. I Amina, I hope I've got compassion and empathy above still work in which are doing settings richer, highly mostly charge me. In the world of a psychiatrist is not a happy world. Clearly, you know and you meet again with tragedies, complete tragedies and messed up lives and people struggling with mental health issues and where empathic and compassionate people

We learn to manage that. So you learn how to manage your emotions rather than saying or special, don't have any meaning I am not sure that would work, something you use. Your emphasis to say How is this man struggling all this woman struggling? Get I like to see my teacher get inside the head of the person you're dating with, because that's when you see the world as they say it, and it really changes your view once you say somebody's world, then you come out of it in order to be able to help them and give them insights of support. So yeah I mean I was once approached by a boxing coach and who said, can you deliver psych pastors because they weren't one of the province boxes have? Is they don't really want to hurt the opponent and they said that can sometimes stop a good boxer in their tracks unnecessarily. psychopath wouldn't be a box and because their wooden comply with them, comply with the rules they want to the training and they were so. You know it's not like that.

Channel himself in the destructive away to their own agendas and roles. So if you want to well with a psychopath not compliant as routine, so what do psychopaths tend to like what kind of things do they get into? What kind of jobs? they do like. While the can be anything like her sanity, you, you may get doctors who are lacking and passion empty, and we ve had this in the history of medicine, and we were you know clearly they ve gone through the system and then do not caring and it's a career so you'll get them in any any walk of life. It's just a lack of compassion. think it right that everyone multiply as they do, that on a good friends to say. As a positive note, it is interesting to show a society case progressing despite the fact that the maybe proportionate logic where I see more passive. Peaceful than we ever were, and his interesting

The moment has been an easy, but this is the longest time in the history of great britain that we ve never had a war. There has never been a generation hasn't suffered emmanuel. Never so that's speaks for itself that society is becoming a better place. Michael is, and what you alluded to earlier is the psychological damage, that's being done, which we've never had before, so the physical may be going down. But for me the psychological is rising and that's a great concern and I think you've alluded to it. The social mediates. This sniping, where we not really thinking about what we're doing so. It's so easy to criticize someone when you are anonymous I'll just add another thumbs down I'll, make some really adverse remark that he thinks quite weighty but archie could cut somebody in half. So that to me is the new danger, as the psychological warfare that's going on hey Francis. Would you like to learn another language

no like overly no foreign languages perfect, like oil. Carry, who I know, baby I'll tech call gone all the time I ve known where the swimming police liberal attack is collide. Bring you idiot exactly. You can never be too far away from knowledge in sexually fresh roy. Bravery for those of you who do want to learn the language and connect with another culture or maybe just brush up and spanish for the next holiday babble is the app for you. But I've been fifteen minute. Listen. I get the perfect way to learn a new language on the go babble designs, her courses, we pointed to call we'll cover nations moines things you gonna use in everyday life, not finding out where the bibliotech peace, babble lessons were created.

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Do you ever get worried stave the way that we are talking about mental health in particular? The way the people use, something like bipolar, which is a very serious condition? I mean you know, but name, but they must use. It is not then to tee. Will you know about it? Depriving a depressive becomes an identity that somehow it makes you more interesting that you ve got a badge to meet a fund. a worrying symptom of society. Really I mean you right. If look at villages momsey depressive illnesses topsy devastating and people get it. You know you have got to go out and because it is crippling and and is nothing they're doing by the way again is not attitudinal bots. Having said that, Yes, you're right, we're not naive to the fact that somebody might present, because it's got gains. You know if I'm depressed, I cant work in a minute want to work, and you know We're not fool by that. We say oversee people will mimic light, said the other level

and then they made the made this a small number of people use it as an excuse, and that makes it hard for the people Generally syphilis elmer says in our not that's enough, but that they're doing it for a reason. The gun you got us. Why would you want a level in a what, while the gains and an if it's like you know, someone wants to sound depressed because- They are so vulnerable. They fail by being ill. People will not attack them because I feel like the being under attack in some way. You say that you could

them several hang on this different ways of proceeding herself and I'm getting support than to make the almost model. So people do use an illness model. You know, but it's a small amount of people is not big, but they'll come to the forefront because people say them as being well you just using this as an excuse to avoid something or gain something. We ve become quite negative in these conversations. Let's finish on a positive, you, ve worked with a lot of early athletes. Helping them to achieve better performance is to get out of their own way and that I think, a lot of people. The question that they'd be quite curious to know is: ah these people who you are seeing on television, making millions and millions of pounds playing in front of a hundred thousand people every week, whatever that may be, they men, chile different, are they have they achieved some kind of high level of

the foreman's mentally or are they just people like us who just happened to physically be able to do stuff? The normal people can believe that people like gross yeah, don't make you millions from sunlight. Stones are what we built make millions the silver a you is it just it's getting again job is to get people in a good place so to trying to raise the conversation about, sending lies with one I've done this work. What I found is it's amazing people once this time just done in himself and ass. She stopped managing their emotions. Changing the life is fantastic, so I can't count the number of people and it is humbling that go through this work than I'm doing and say it's transformational. Once you understand yourself and you can manage your emotions, new thinking behaviors you just change it. Person, you really are and suddenly you free of all less so it almost have. We talk

about his own secondary. Do why do so when people command in whatever's happening just put even the illness to one side network on you as a person and, above all the other points glad. You were a lot of people that are well known. I can't name. Names must have gone public service, Emma doctrine, but the two that didn't views early days was running sullivan in smoke, and vicky pendleton on the bike, eyeballs fantastic people, annette interestingly, both at an interview, the press at the same time, without knowing they were doing it. Said the same thing won't stay matters he didn't go to this new could tear blow the truck. He came towards this people and said: let's get you in a good place: I got them in a good place. Dana said what you wanna to do with yourself. Now then, we'll gonna have a look at cycling and circle. I will look. At knocking a ballroom around then I'll, say: okay, let's supply what you ve done now, but let's start in a good place and all of us

All of us can get in a good place again. Give him a healthy good research. Everybody erase. It shows If you aren't you workin yourself, emotion,. you will improve, you will improve, is just going something that resonate with you? I put out the chip model because it's what I find resonates with me and those who resonate with great, but if you got people listening and thing doesn't resonate, was made the so many other alternatives that are brilliant, that you could resonate way. and it's that thing of suddenly believe in that you can actually do this and get there maybe get someone to help and support, we can all improve so everybody research shows, emotional skills can be learned, and then you close, your life improves so again when I look at the people on the tell the answer is no. I haven't found this I'm only one man, you have to ask the people of normative life. This ball psychologist there, the experts

and if you ask them they may come up with something very different. My experience has been the people. I worked with a just everyday people and to be able to either run quickly or kick a ball in or they just have a special physical gift, but mentally that the same as we are and they struggle with the same things we struggle with astral inch. yeah I'll. Ireland's I've found the export. Yet I'm found what this target is fits nicely with what I have always believed, since the pretty young age, which is its really important to work on yourself on your mental games. Well, as all sorts of other things that you do, and I have always, I've always found that that is a process that you get rewarded for, and I never thought that I'm necessarily destined for some kind of special

I just Didn'T- want to live my life, knowing that this something in the way that exactly, I think that something which is where we're going back to the new resigns which in the nineties I had this light bulb moment. Damn talking to these patient think this two people talking to me and it started down the majors. You talk then the top almost like emotion, rubbish, and you think then, may I bring the mountain? They talk sensibly thing, so different person suddenly is quite severe the difference, and thus I started looking at the science thinking. Let's go with my experience and say: is this borne out near signs, and there was in front of me, you ve got these two parts of the brain almost in a battle. If you dont manage them an exam, Who else than what you re saying to me into the new recital. Is my computer need a tidying up exercise. Some protection with all these beliefs are not helping me and also that that this active chimp bread, It's just jump him year around and it's got its own agenda. Ways of work in which I dont actually agree with someone a slow it down and stop it being impulsive, so that

when you explain I'm getting in the way of myself. That's all I'm saying scientifically, as if you start distancing itself from the the chimpanzees peter and learn who you really are, because most people don't have a clue there, and then you see alright. What you're presenting to the world is you with an influence from the chimp and computer or even a hydrant? When you get that, then you would not say it's me. I am an anxious person what says, I'm actually a really peaceful, easy going very relaxed person, because that's who you wanna be, but when they bolt on this machine, my machines, easy, and I need to learn to understand what with it get it on board. So will always then to anxiety, that's not gonna stop, but what learn to do is when you distance from its low what it's trying to tell you what you need to do to saw you computer out and then you'll find that sometimes it just doesn't happen because it happened so fast in the brain is like less than a fifth of the second day

a computer also, the champ, only you gotta do is input and say what resonate with you and then you start saying: I'm fine, my chimps anxious we start seeing as a positive. That brings up a question for me. I said wigan end on a positive and probably not now, which is what do you make of the increasing medical illustration of some of these feelings that we experience you got anxiety is a tablet. You ve got. Depression has a tablet and we don't say you feel depressed. We say you have this thing. cold called depression? What do you make of of that, because I found that you'd, like you say this sometimes anxieties therefore reason anxiety, he's telling you you're not ready for this? You need to oh and on train or prepare or love? or not do this, because this is the wrong thing for you right, but if you ve done, so we have as a society that is shoved down. He is a tablet to make it all go way. Is that gonna get in the way of us growing as people

I think, something. The problem you ve got is you think about there's a man, we're overloaded in the world of men, health checks, and so I think it ought to anyone whose counselling, as a college, is psychiatrist, what overlord therapists overlord, because all of could do this, because, like mental coaching, in always guns Those to understand, because nobody towns is this so not given a manual at birth. It says this is what you gonna have to manage. So we find, no. We don't want to do that, so we dont than of healthy behaviors coping strategies, so is the empty doctors g pays overloaded, so they can sit down set your let's start analyzed. What you think and let's see what you believe, that they can't do that they go seven minutes exactly so. Therefore, it's much easier looked at this tablet. Go for a walk, go swimming! Do this because it's a quick fix in the hope that it'll just calm you down where it says sticky plan to see you're right, we're, complex beings,

We have to put the effort in, but wilson people know what they're doing to help us to to find out. What's going on our heads and we don't have enough people to do that. Hence I wrote the book to try and say you can work this out for yourself. There are things you can do practically That will get you into a good place, but I know where you're coming from yet you still delight pushing me to say that levelling lots of things magical at now. You do agree innocent eyes were levelling teenagers when that they're going through a normal hormonal change, reaches gonna, send your emotions everywhere, you learn, to do interpersonal skills and skills, and you ve got no experience annual this troop drives and you must be loved by everyone and then coming can destroy it and so that is normal, so to be a teenager is not a good place for most teenagers, but you know we have to be careful that this small sub group that have a depressive l, a hundred percent dont get lost a hundred bucks

you're right. We were the reason why we have concerns a psychiatrist about this that are medicalizing a bit too much and saying look. This is not medical, it's normal! What we need to learn, which is why I said at the beginning. My patients have come through the door. Fifty percent probably do need medication. Fifty percent referrals that I got fringy pays did not need that they needed insights and learn how to manage, and we I like, for example, anxiety that you've mentioned that that doesn't respond to medication. You can knock it down a bit, but it it don't. It won't be: remove a medication, it's removed by actually seeing what's

in anxiety what he believes and so a tizzy a a mind problem as opposed to physical illness. So anxiety yeah it to me, it's it's a lack of management and we need to look into. How can we help people to get that management and then they'll come out of it? So we do a lot of cognitive, behavioral type work without rosin give tablets. Why do agree? I do agree with you stay. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on the show we're going to do a few quick questions. Okay for our local members before we do that, we always have one final question, which is: what's the one thing we're not talking about that? We really should be a thing if ellos back

the children in schools and worked a lot of what skills at the moment and looking at building resilience and robustness in children, because we know the researches do it at four year old. There are ways we can watch improvers resilience in forty five year old, which pay dividends ten years on, and the research shows that that you can get resilient teenagers, which war after and resume adults. So for me the big thing is what I'm doing an that's: trying to get people to become psychologically minded and start understanding, themself as a human being and having a better opinion of himself build himself up and others that's worth incurred. Light ceases,

I do go many to be talking much more about positive, not you know using it as a safety net, but saying how do we get positive and productive really get quality lives in a good place? Thus, why? I feel we should be talking about yeah couldn't agree more. I think we talk. So much about mental health and what we really talk about is mental ill health. What we shouldn't be talking about so much more as tuning a brain up to to to be better, to be more fulfilled, to be more successful, to be happier to be the logical, hell, yeah, exactly scientific relationships, communication dealing with emotion, this conniston polite to see much earlier on in school. What what? What that? One of the great things about a path through the jungle and you're the work for particular this one is you ve kind of got very easy to two to read. You ve got graphs and all sorts of other things, a visually engaging that that makes them more digestible. So I really recommend you got check out the chimpanzees and a path through the jungle of simply to say

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