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one hundred thousand dollars and receive a one thousand dollar bonus or transfer two million dollars and get an impressive twenty thousand dollar bonus visit, robin hood dot com, slash vocs to claim your bonus terms apply to the bonus c4 bonus terms at robin hood. Dotcom investments offered through robin hood financial llc. Investing is risky. It's the weeds, I'm John Glenn Hell and I'll be honest. This episode has been a long time coming, as I'm sure you know, former president donald trump has run into a bit of legal trouble since he left office back in April, he was indicted for the first time honestly, I was ready to throw what we had already done that week to the side and do a totally new episode, and I was ready to do that to more times in june and at the beginning of august. Two, thankfully

The rest of the weeds team, was able to get me to sit tight and patients truly is a virtue, because now three more indictment Later the legal challenges facing the former president are coming into view and the like this indictment out of fulton county. Georgia is unique. It's a regal charge, something that's most. Common the associated with prosecuting organise crimes against the mob, but before we get into rico, here's a quick refresher for anyone not up to speed on all ninety one charges facing donald I'm andrew program, I'm senior politics corresponding and box, and I cover the investigations that have been going on It's been indicted in four different jurisdictions. The first was

in new york earlier this afternoon, Donald from was arraigned one in new york supreme court indictment on thirty four phony counts are false, fine business records. In the first degree, then, he was indicted in florida related to charges the mishandling classified documents. This indictment was voted by a grand jury citizens, the southern dish. In florida, nine by everyone to read. It fully understand the scope and the gravity of the crimes charged. Then he was indicted in Washington dc about essentially is plot to day in power and overturn the twenty twenty election result today, Linda was unsealed charging Donald J trump with conspiring fraud, the united states conspiring to dysentery entice and conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding and

Finally, he was indicted in georgia also about his efforts to overturn the twenty twenty election result in georgia, specifically every individual, will charge in the indictment is charge with one count. Violating georgia's racketeer, influenced and corrupt organizations at can you walk ass through each of these cases? like what do they each mean winded? They happen like what's going on here, so the first indictment that came down was brought by manhattan district attorney, Alvin brag, and so this was about

the hush money, payments that were made to stormy Daniels, who had alleged a sexual encounter with trump trump's longtime lawyer and fixer, Michael Cohen, had paid her just before the two thousand and sixteen election. So she would keep quiet and trump reimbursed cohen for those payments, so he's facing thirty four counts: of falsifying business records. So next was the second indictment overall and the first one brought by special council jack smith, who is leading the federal investigations into trump it was filed in florida, and it relates to a whole set of classified documents that trump took with him when leaving office and kept with him marilla, though his florida estate, eventually the FBI raided rated mara lago and found a good deal more documents that were still there. This indictment came

down on june s by then on July, twenty and there were a set of other charges added to them, related to an alleged attempt by trump to cover up what the security camera footage. marilla go actually showed about how he was handling these documents. What about the third indictment? So then, Jack Smith went ahead with his other indictment filed in august first in the district of columbia, and this was the big one about tat his effort to steal the election. It is a pretty lean, clean indictment charging trump charging trumpet just for counts that are related to conspiracy or obstruction. Conspiracy to defraud the united states, conspiracy to obstruct unofficial, proceeding, obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy, disenfranchised voters, so he's essentially trying for different ways to charge transactions criminally and

this will all be litigated uncontested in the courts as tron tries to argue that, though he was just exercising his political speech rights and what about this? Fourth indictment of georgia, so there fought in county district attorney. Funny well is followed up, her own election, related in tight men where jack smith's was pretty lean and stripped down. This is big and sprawling. Trump himself is charged with thirteen counts, but he is charged with being a part of an overall racketeering conspiracy, under the georgia rico law, which is essentially

law modeled after a federal law that similar that allows prosecutors to basically say you are part of a corrupt enterprise that is trying to do a corrupt thing and we are going to basically charge you for that. So this is where tromp was indicted, but also allegedly part of the conspiracy are eighteen. Other defendants as well as more than thirty unindicted co conspirators finding well, as is basically arguing that this was a pretty big criminal conspiracy to deprive georgia, voters of the rightful result their state, which was Joe Biden to victory. You pro cap! Thank you so much for joining us. Things are happening

so that's overview of trumps legal troubles. Now that we have the ten thousand for you it's time to zoom in on the most recent indictment, if you read this indictment, you'll see that foreign county district attorney funding will, as has crafted a narrative, alleging a corrupt enterprise and she charged former president donald trump and over a dozen co conspirators. under the states. Rico along rico stands for racketeer racket, corrupt organizations, that's is david, skal lansky he's a professor at stanford law school. An expert on criminal law and criminal procedure and rigour As we know it goes back about fifty years. Nineteen, seventy congress, enacted and present sign in to love the federal rico statue, And that is the model for reconstruction in most states now, including georgia. All of these things It's about the federal and the state level outbreak

kind of erector set for prosecutors. They let prosecutors, take particular crimes, the authority already to charge and make a new crime out of them. The crime of participating in it surprise through a pattern of racketeering, activity and enterprise. eyes. Basically, is any group of people who are organised either in a formal, formal way it could be. a criminal gang it could be Firstly, it could be a union or a public school system, or it could be a group of people who are working to overturn the results of the presidential election in a particular state, each rico statutes specifies particular cry that can count their so called predicate axe list of crimes that

qualifying georgia's significantly longer than the list that can qualify the federal statute, a pattern of racketeering activity, As two or more of these specific crimes that are related in some way, but the basic idea is that if you commit certain crime in georgia- and you do that as part of a pattern that involves some sort of enterprise, is either a formal organization or a loose collection of people. That's an additional crime, prime of rico and it works the same way at the federal level, That's so interesting, because this sounds a lot like conspiracy,

What's the difference between rico, an conspiracy charges, a conspiracy charge requires that everybody in the conspiracy be part of the same agreement, whereas a rico charge just requires that everybody whose charge was participating in the same pattern of racketeering. Activity through the same enterprise, so rico charge can be much broader, not ever He has to have been part of the same agreement as long as there are part of the same pattern. Racketeering activity using the same enterprise. So I went go back in time and I want you to describe what the lead up to this statue was like what was organized crime like prior? to nineteen. Seventy was it all jesse? Now we ve seen the godfather was it was. Is this what we're talking about your kind of

so the phrase organized crime can be used in in two different ways. Sometimes, when people use the phrase organised crime, they mean any crime that is carried out in an organized way through some sort of system that more than one person is, then? But sometimes when we talk about organised crime, we have something particular mine the mafia. the monopoly gum and the mafia was a bigger deal through. The first half of the twentieth century than it is today, and rico is party reason why it's no longer such a big deal in nineteen. Seventy congress passed a huge anti crime bill. They did all kinds of things, but one of the things that there was to create this new offence of rico and the motivation for the statute was,

concern about the mafia, infiltrating and taking over legitimate businesses, and that was the heart of what congress was trying to get at, but every but he recognized even back then that you can't have a statute that aimed at italian american criminals. So the statute cast a wider net for my her standing. The whole kind of point of this is to get like the big people at the top. The people aren't getting their hands. Dirty, I may recall, is like a lot of statutes. patterns or combinations of crime? In that? The idea, often, is that you'll be able to get to the people at the top in part by, going after people who are further down. Rico has sometimes been used to Sweden, people who operate in a much lower level and criminal enterprises, but it has

so been used to go after people towards the top Ironically, some of the most famous examples of that are anti mafia prosecutions that Rudy Giuliani lad when he was the the journey manhattan back in the nineteen eighties. Oh, how can you tell us a little bit about that rudy giuliani, first game national fame. as a crusading federal prosecutor in new york city, and among his most famous prosecutions, were rico cases against mafia here's, including very high level mafia figures. The biggest of these cases was called the mafia, commission trial, which was a very significant. Case and the mid nineteen eighties against eleven mafia leaders Putting the heads of new york cities, five families- It's indictment we mention five setting

in other indictments. In other cases, you ve got twenty mentioned in another indictment alleged. Another indictment of those defendants were tried and an under rico and most of them were Senate. two hundred years in prison in that case, and others like it played a cigar, raw and reducing the influence of the mafia Can you explain how trying a rico case differs from trying a regular criminal case. What is that, like guys, really different in two ways? First of all, we go introduces a bunch of new legal issues if you and I, are charged where fraud, the prosecutors, have to prove that we ve committed fraud better for charges with combating fraud and with riga. then the prosecutors have to charge not just that we ve committed fraud, but that we did it in a way that constitute

pattern and that we did it through the activities of enterprise. So there are dish legal issues that get out and on when regos brought into play. The biggest difference, though, is that rico. Often charged precisely is. It allows prosecutors to sweep in lots of different events and lots of different of defendants who ordinarily couldn't be combined in the same case or the same trial, and that means that you wind up with enormous cases, with many many defendants. I mention that The mafia commission case involved. Eight defendants rico case against donald trump in georgia, involves nineteen defendants and when you have a case and mafia nineteen defendants and there were

I'd range of crimes that they ve been charged with committing. It creates all kinds of complications. You have to figure out. Can they we tried together or is that unfair to one or more than the? And if they are tried together, how'd, you run a trial with with nine team separate defenders. Where do they all sit? Where did their attorneys? Who gets to question the witnesses First, how do you handle objections from nineteen different lawyers for nineteen different parties in the same case, it can be very unwieldy, yeah. Never, I have to admit, I did not stop and think about the logistical hurdles of a case this large their enormous. If you think about trial, you ve seen. Either real trials are trials and movies or tv. You have two tables in front of a judge. The prosecutors are one table that offence is that the other table one side, a witness, the other side guess the cross examined them. Sometimes there are objections the two lawyers will go to sidebar with the job

and argue outside of the jury's hearing. If you have, teams abandons and lloyd. For nineteen defenders just orchestrating that figuring out physically or everybody sits, sets figuring out what order you're allow people to talk who gets the question which witnesses when very complicated okay, so bad three go one or one. Next up, what's gonna happen when the donald goes down, georgia. Support for this show comes from give. While there are a lot of non profit organisations out there more than one point: five million in the: u s alone, when you're making a donation. You might want to know that your gift, no matter

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an original podcast from mozilla machine learning, this language does that for all the noise about a? I push should also be hearing the stories about the real people behind it. Ira is a show for people who build. I am for the people who develop tat policies, its hosted by british todd and their currencies in people over profit, tackle some big questions about artificial intelligence like how do you build truly trustworthy and responsible? I, what is innovation? Look like one trillion dollar companies and investors our calling the shots and people come first in one episode of IRA you'll hear the stories of people pushing back against companies that hired millions of corn and quote invisible workers, sometimes for as little as two dollars an hour to review toxic disturbing content in order to keep it off. Generative ay I like chat, jpg you'll, also hear about the people developing a tools

empowering their workers to make these machine learning systems work for the rest of us. You can search for mozilla IRA in your pockets player or visit ira podcast dot, org. Ok, so we're back and David, we just learned about the federal right. a statute? But now I want to talk about how state statutes can differ from federal ones. You mention before that georgia has a longer list of what can qualify under a rico charge. Why is that significant? living and because it means that lots of specific georgia crimes can be part of this indictment. So the product acts that are charged in this case include affair.

Says that seem narrowly tailored precisely for circumstances like the ones that are alleged to have occurred here. So Georgia, for example, makes it a crime to try to get an elected official to violate his oath. So that's a very close fit for what is alleged donald trump dead when he called The secretary of state in georgia to swing georgia from Joe Biden column into donald trumps, Joe I want to do? Is this I just want to fight eleven thousand seven in eighty love, which is one For that we have that activity is also charged the special councils indictment against tramp in Washington DC, but each charge in connection with me much vague

more general allegation that trunk was trying to defraud the united states or conspiring to deprive people of their voting rights. Similarly, The fake electors scheme in georgia is part of the federal in fact, in washington, DC its alleged by the special council. This was part of an effort to defraud the united. states, which is a very general allegation. Georgia, makes it a crime to impersonate a state officer or to commit forgery and both of those are also predicate crimes rico in georgia. So the georgia indictment against trump and his eighteen co. Defendants also less as part of the pattern. Racketeering activity, the forgery of the dock men, identifying the fake electors as the real actors and the fact that the electors trident

ass themselves off as the lawfully selected electors from georgia. Similarly, it is a product crime fur under georgia's rico statute to access computer records our authorization, which is what some of it men are charged with her. Done with regard to computerized voting records in georgia. It it's it's, so fascinating, because I mean the crimes are so specific and the fact that I don't know it just is it. So I just unlike how they are such per specific crimes that I would never think of, like you know oh, I mean forgery, yes, but I would never think of making that a predicate cry but it happens to be in while yeah it's another different between the georgia case and the federal case, and it's something that, if their convictions, in this case might later wind up being important on an appeal. There's been lots of them.

Geisha and in the federal courts about how widely federal fraud statutes should reach? And am I think is convicted in the washington dc case? We can anticipate litigation on appeal about whether the statutes that the special council has used. In that case, is really are designed to reach and should reach the claim that bad trump his charge, having carried out, where is it georgia case the fear of the statutes for the contract. That charge is much tighter and much more. Natural feels very best spoke on some. Yet how ya like yeah? Georgia has stature that makes it a crime to try to convince a public official. I laid his oath and one imagines that when that statue was pass, this is exactly the kind of conduct that the legislators had a mind. So we know that

I've been eighteen named, co, defendants have been indicted, and there are So thirty unindicted co, conspirators what's up with that. How do they factor in to this and why They indicted betters that set out to me Something happened to go home, we don't know Why, though, not indicted? It could be that prosecutors are not convinced that they have enough evidence to convict those people Hungary's without it could be that the prosecutors are engaged in pleaded negotiations with some of those people to see if they want to work out a piece nightmare deal so funny. Willis is the district attorney whose brought these charges and she's playing to charge all nineteen defendants together. Can you talk about the advantage if trying everyone together like what does? What does that do from a prosecutor?

perspective. It allows the prosecutor to tell a more complete panoramic story and it prevents what prosecutors call the empty chair defence. It prevents defendants frowned. Saying o the person whose really responsible for this criminal activity is somebody who's, not even in the courtroom prosecutors? are worried that if they try one defendant and then another defended in the first trial defended. Why We'll say all this was royal defendant, two's responsibility and he's not here and then in the second I will defend the two will say what was really all defend at one and she's not here, and if you try everybody together, then there are pointing fingers that each other which prosecutors like because they feel that they can then pursue a strategy of divide and conquer, and what about the disadvantages its logistically far.

More complicated to try a whole bunch of people together, but it also makes it more difficult to get to trial in the first place, because when you have multiple and thence they can raise different legal issues and among The issues they can raise is whether its fair for them to be tried together, the day need have supper trials, so you can take it long time to work through all those motions and get to the point where You can have a trial, fani Willis, the district the important country georgia has significant experience when georgia's we go law, she's indicted cases with that statute before and she succeeded in prosecutions women. statute before but the cases in which she's use the statute. I think

show both the advantages and the disadvantages so before she was disrepute. When she was just align prosecutor fanny was played a large role in a prosecution under georgia's rico love of thirty five educators. the latter area who were charged wed cheating. I'm standardized house that case was successful. There were in most of the fence black guilty twelve a moment to trial. Eleven of them were convicted, but that took a long time The case took a year and a half from indictment until the point when trial began and then the trial itself stretched on for six months as district attorney, Well has also used georgia's weaker statute to go after wrapper jeffrey Williams and his record label why so which will assess all

is charged has been operating as criminal gang twice Eight defendants were charged under georgia's rico statute. In that case, several them have entered into play deals, but there are eight defenders. who are still scheduled to be tried. The try all and in that case actually started. this pass january, but we still haven't, finished, jury, selection and act. is, when you introduce this, many different Hence, in this many legal issues, it can complicate things but before trial and during trial, yeah I have to admit that this Donald trump case is the first time I've seen georgia's rico laws in the news. I've been following the wise l case, and I can tell you I did not have young thug and donald trump facing similar charges on my twenty twenty three bingo pard. What does willis affinity for rico charges tell us

I think she's comfortable with the statute and she's comfortable with big cases involving lots of defendants. She doesnt seem afraid of these cases. And she seems very comfortable web- try to address the complexities in a rico case and you in the law, too. Allow her to present a panoramic picture in court, and also law to sweep in lots of people with I hope that some of them will decide to plead guilty and cooperate with the government yeah. I'm I'm glad you brought up the Y s l case and how long it's taken so trump is booked and busy. This next year between all the court cases and his presidential campaign, the ga da wants to start that

while in march and the d o j once its trial in january trumps, lawyers have said that to go through all the terabytes of documents that they need to for the federal case that they're gonna need a twenty twenty six day- and you know that sounds like a long time, but when you just think of the sheer volume of you no documents and discovery, it does seem reasonable. I mean what should we expect as far as timelines? The time line is, is the whole battle here were used to thinking of the battle in a criminal case being what happens at trial, but in these cases The real battle is whether theirs Try all at all, sometimes criminal defined and will say. I look forward to vindicating myself in cork. That's not anything you every year from donald trump because from his perspective, any criminal trial in which he's a defendant.

Is a disaster set aside for a moment the possibility that he'll be convicted and sentenced to prison, which I think is a real possibility in all these cases? The The fact of a trial is a disaster for him. It's a disaster because it takes them off the campaign trail and it's a disaster, because it's completely inconsistent with his whole method of operating his strategy is to act. The man to be the tough guy, the guy who's in charge, and he likes to talk in settings where nobody contradicts him. Nobody tells him what he supposed to talk about. Nobody challenges him, that's not working. Happen in a trial in a trial that is, she is run by the judge. Who applies of evidence and

the relevance. The discussion proceeds at trial through proof that has to be introduced in court and trump for the most part, will be sitting in cork. Listening to other people talk about him, so that this is, as far as can be imagined from the setting that he delights to be and which is when he's on some stage in front of an adoring crowd. So his whole strategy in the weeks and months to come will be to stay out of court not to have a trial and The question is: how successful will he be in that endeavour? I think some of these kids is likely to be able to move faster than others the why in dc prosecution of tromp, maybe the one that is most likely to be he tried soon, because it is stripped down case

It has only one defendant, its narrowly focused on donald trump and its true trumps lawyers. have suggested that the volume of documents in this case means that the trial should be scheduled until twenty twenty sex, but that the judge is gonna, buy that and I think, from Lawyers know that the judge isn't going to buy that one more quick break and will jump into some of the unknowns of this rico case and the complicated legal landscape trump is facing fox created. This is advertiser content brought to you by until we really only seen the tip of the iceberg on what's possible, where they, from the age of steel to the age of computers, society has been defined by innovation, but behind em

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more about how in tat was providing the foundation for real solutions at entailed? a calm slashed stories. Support for the weeds comes from another politics, podcast from the harris school of public policy trying to keep up with the political new cycle in twenty twenty he can sometimes feel like staring into a black hole of information or hundreds of thousands of opinions at facts get sucked in and distorted. We know it's alive, even if you listen to the weeds every week. You all know in order for the average person to stay capital, I informed it can help to find and listened sources who are working to cut through the noise and offer perspectives that go beyond the headlines. Not another politics, podcast I stood just then it was launched in produced by the university of chicago harris school of public policy? It's not abundance and politicians podcast. Rather it takes over certain data approach to analyzing hot button issues. They cover a wide variety of topics,

episodes, but here are just a few that you can listen to right now, whether or not ousting incumbents improves their economy the extent to which white americans favour white politicians and what happens when fox news viewers tune into cnn instead for a month. You can listen and subscribe to day at harris stuck chicago dot. Eating use, slash nap, that's in a p p. Ok, David, There are a lot of what s right now and that's because this is a gigantic case with some very serious and some very obvious implications, but before You get into what that guilty verdict could mean. I want to talk about logistics. Are we going to do the this trial happen during the primary, or are things gonna get shuffled around?

I will be surprised if this case can go to trial, asked Finally, as the dossier says that she wants to go to trial, she said that she would like to see a trial date within six months, but I think with nineteen defendants, how does a real stretch in that? An case that fanny was cried under georgia's weaker statue. They took a year and a half to get the trial after indictment that's, why I sell case is still edge. Ray selection and watched. In january, and neither of them cases have some of the additional complexities that this case has neither those cases. For example, bob organ involve efforts to remove the case to federal court which

case does involve mark meadows. One of trumps co. Defendants in the latter case has already said that he wants his case moved to a federal court. Other defenders, including tromp, may joining that request. That's yet another layer of complication and then, of course, we have the complication that the defendants in this case, including trump, have legal complications elsewhere per day charlie tromp, whose facing three other criminal indictments and sure, that's part of trumps lawyer strategies. Will be to try to use each of these cases against the other two try to use the new york florida in case to slow down georgia case and to try to use the georgia florida new york case to slow down. washington d c case. So I think, each of these cases This involves its own challenges by particular

we with nineteen defendants and the range of legal issues that the georgia case raises a trial, six months from now. Strikes me as ambitious. I'm glad that you mentioned the mark meadows request, because to me that request The reason behind it seems very obvious, you know if it's federal and then you know one of your coat offence becomes president, you probably there's a potential pardon error. You know you could be more hopeful towards that, but I kind of I kind of want to talk out more. of that tease out more of that, not just the results. But what would have been to this case if its moved from georgia to a federal case? What would happen so? I dont think its clear

that it would mean that a conviction would be subject. Presidential pardon, I think you're probably would not be subject to presidential pardon, even if it's a move to federal yeah, because I'm, if its moved her the federal court, it's still a trial or state crime. The only thing that changes is the court room and the procedural rules that attached to the trial. So if the case gets moved the federal court, the federal rules of criminal procedure get applied. The federal We have evidence, get applied and the jury is drawn from the area that is covered by the federal court, which be larger than fulton county, so one possible advantage for defender, like meadows in moving the case to federal court. Is that jury, poor change and you might get a more favourable jury pool.

Another possible advantages that his lawyers may feel that a federal court is a friendly or venue for them because they are more familiar with federal procedures. Member state prosecutor's will be. I'm gonna be interested to see whether trump joins in this request, because think it has advantages and disadvantages for trump for tromp, as for matters it may mean a more favourable jury pool by it I also mean that once the case gets moved, it can move along faster rather than more slowly because federal courts in june ro, more used to large complicated cases, and it's not clear that trump would be better off with his case in federal court nominal ass. If I had to bat I would bet that his lawyers will join in the request.

such is. That is yet another thing that could slow things down, at least in the in the near term. Every edition A legal issue, I think, is good from trump's perspective, because it creates more things that have to be argued about and what trump wants mokes. What his side wants more most are things that we have to argue about in court, where tromp doesn't to be sitting in court as a defendant. So legal issues are perfect in this regard because he he doesn't have to be in the courtroom you can let the lawyers do get out. I think the jury. Poor thing is so interesting because You know fulton county is bright blue, like if its atlanta and then you know I was listening to our colleagues over at today- explained they did a wonderful apples, when the news initially broke in Lord kind of in general has trump fatigue met.

A little bit over it. Even even the report. tens? When you look at his relationship with the governor like they, they are right to move on yeah, it's hard to know how that would play out in a criminal case body. It might well, meaning that the larger jury pool when you wind up here tromp or any other defendants, because there are lots of republicans in georgia, who seeing fed up and done where the effort to overturn their election results in not all in their state governance. So what would the possibility of moving this from you know, fulton county to federal court mean that the mandatory in time. Changes like what does that mean? As far as sentencing do we know it doesn't change

in terms of sentencing, because it would mean that the procedural rules, the rules that about how the court operates, would be the federal rules and not the state rules, but the substantive law that gets apply that the criminal prohibitions that sentencing provisions. Those would all be. Georgia law, which I know sounds odd. You would think well, if it's all georgia law, why would you be in it to federal court and it might not moved to federal court precisely because job, only cases involving stay crimes are handled in state courts. What complicate things here is that there's a statue of federal statute that says criminal defendants have our Tat move their trial from state court to federal court if they have a plausible defence

centres around their federal responsibility and that's it that's what medicines metal says. Look my defence and he says it's a good one is that I was just. pursuing my duties and doing my job as the present chief of staff and that's my defence, and because it might events and because it is at least a plausible defence. The statute says we can move this trial. The federal court because, as a big fat oh issue involved that has to do with the supremacy of federal law to state law and that's what the federal district court is going to have decide whether there really is a plausible defence here that arises from the federal position that matter had at the time when a trump joins in the request, the issue, the same with regard to tromp. Would the federal court would still be

in georgia, or would it be like somewhere else it would probably be georgia, I mean it. You could conceivably move the trial out of the state by that's generally not done, and I doubt it would be done here so the trial would be held in georgia. It would be in federal court, though in georgia, and not an estate court. So we ve already established that this is one of two rico cases out of georgia that I have had my eye on. The other is the way I sell case and we ve seen in that case peep Take plea deals. Are we going to see the same I agree in this other case, like our people, gotta start sing, lange birdies like white: when are we about? Does he take place? I thank you all completely deals with nineteen defendants? The odds that all of them will decide to go to trial is

love and that hasn't happened in other cases. where will us has charge lots of defendants, it's just the law of numbers that when you have this many people bob is unlikely that they will all decide. they want, throwing their lot with the lead defendant in the case. Particularly when, even if trump wins the election, he won't be in a position to pardon any of them before. I let you go, I'm really curious about your thoughts on this case in the grand scheme of things like what is this telling us about our judicial system and our politics, and you know, there's the state of our democracy right now, yeah. Well, the jury is still out. You could say because I think donald trump is putting american democracy to a task in all kinds of ways, one of the way

She's putting it to the test is by pressing to see whether our legal system can deal with the kinds the blatant violations of the rule of law Now that donald trump has been engaging for years and we ve never had a president who try to throw out the results, the election in which he was voted out of office, by gaming, the electoral college, by putting together fake groups of electors, by pressuring the vice president of violate his oath and pressuring a state secretary of state to violate his oath. So it's not clear whether our legal system and our democracy are

to these challenges. I think the indictments are good news in the sense that they suggest Our system is at least help me enough to get these charges filed and to start moving them towards trial, but it remains to be seen, whether the system will be strong enough to actually get to trial. I think they will be by we'll have to say david skal lansky. Thank you. So much for joining us on the weeds, adjective is a lot of fun. before we go. I wanted a circle back to that conversation we had earlier with andrew, because none of this, happening in a vacuum. I asked him what this could mean for the twenty twenty four presidential race. There's nothing stopping. trump from being a presidential candidate he's going to be on the ballot. the republican nomination and voters pick him here,

get that nomination and then he'll be on the It in the fall of twenty twenty four likely running and running against Joe Biden, and you know, there's a it shouldn't of how long these trials will take. Some of them have dates that events we don't know with those states will move, but it is possible he could found guilty or even sentenced to prison before the twenty twenty four election by, even if that happens, you know there's, no automatic, like magical legal track that just knocked him out of contention for the presidency has toby on the ballot and it will still be up to the voters What I mean is it is hard to gave out exactly how they would play out because it's pretty unprecedented situation, but I think most people's assumption at this point is that you know if he went the election he's gonna be the next president. The nineteen co defendants have until noon. On friday august twenty fifth to surrender,

themselves to the rice street jail unfold and count me. Donald trump is expected to turn himself in four booking on thursday to stay on top, this story and the rest of the news had to vocs dot com. That's all for us today. Thank you to Andrew pro cop and David's skal lansky for joint me. Our producers to feel alone, erika long engineered. This episode, Kalen pansy move, fact checked it. At a toy directors aim hall and I'm your host John Glenn hill. The way despite the fox media podcast network, support for this show comes from internal. Where do world changing ideas get their start at intel? Its It's with real solutions and real solutions start with exceptional engineering, the quantum compete revolution the next generation of ay. I experts the renewal energy grid early

no says for cancer, the example are countless. The impacts are endless, but the foundation is always the same. It starts with interpol learn more at intel, dot com, slash stories, the