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Time is now the all electric pole star to book a test drive and order today at all star dot com. It's the weeds, I'm John one hell and ash can probably tell by my voice. I came down with a little cold over the weekend, which meant that I spent most of it on my couch and in between spoonfuls of chicken noodle soup and bidding new season of love is blind which, by the way, is a mess. I kept my eyes on. Another mess happening much closer to home, the real housewives of the hill. If you will ouch republican, inviting, though, has stalled spending bills from making it across the finish line. Lawmakers- but although are running out of time, to avert a government shut down a stopgap belt of funding, the government has failed in the house, a government,

shut down, seemed like a sure thing, I'm till it wasn't. Just a short time ago, the senate approved a bill to keep the government funded for forty five days, and, let me tell you, the drama has continued into this week. Back here in washington, Kevin Mccarthy is fighting to keep his job. The office of speaker of the house of the united states house of representatives is hereby declared vacant, and, while this political theatre has been huge, I promise you, the catalyst is a much bigger deal. The good news is the government won't be shutting down at least not before november seventeen, but this is not a new song and dance feels like we toy with this idea of government shut down at least once a fiscal year, and sometimes we crossed that line have experienced

we shut downs in my nearly fifteen years as a dc resident. For me, it was mostly an annoyance like back in two thousand and thirteen the panda camera was turned off right after new cup was born. I have to admit I was bummed I feel like I miss bow bows milestones. then the city had overflowing trash and the only reason I didn't really pile up is because the mere at the time deemed all decent government business as essential. But these shutdown impact bore the ability to look at you baby animals and encourage home rules, loopholes. I've known this, but saw at first hand during the last shut down that one was the longest we ve had to date and people missed, multiple paychecks. It was the end of twenty eight team and I, doing some preliminary reporting for another podcast? I hosted called through the cracks. I was we'll just apparent that a motel in d c that doubled as the family shelter. I asked one mom what brought her there,

she told me was the shutdown she worked as a security guard at one of the smithsonian's and wasn't getting paid, so she couldn't make rant and and her child ended up in a shelter. These shutdowns have real consequences for real people, even the threat of a shut down to say the for folks, then, is a drain on government resources, while its great that we have to shut down this time. I'm not all that confident. We won't find ourselves right back here in november today. On the Why do we keep doing this, and is there a better way to answer these questions? I made a call. My name is Molly rounds. I'm asking your fellow and governance studies at the workings institution, where I study the? U S, congress. There is a lot to get into here, but I want to start with some of the basics. First, let's break down the different parts of federal funding. What

exactly. Are we talking about when we talk about funding and we talk about shutdowns. So there are two types of spending that the federal government's engages in one of them and this is the one that we're not talking about- talk about a shut down its cause, mandatory spending and that bending where, when the government rights, the law that authorizes a new programme that Same law also requires certain payments to be made. Usually that's because those payments. are based on eligibility criteria like medicare, Israel, did example of mandatory spending when coming, created medicare. They said these are the people who are eligible for this particular health insurance programme when they wrote that law, they said ok, based on their eligibility. We have to push that money. the door to actually pay for when your parents or grandparents go to the doctor. That kind of spending keeps

blowing every year, whether or not congress takes action. What we are talking about when we talk about a shut down, this was called discretionary and that is spending where the amount of funding to provide for a particular programme is made through the annual. Preparations process and that its funding were of congress doesn't take action every year. The treasury can't cut those checks, they can't make the payments under that programme and that's the kind of spending that when there is a shot down that is affected, I'm glad he brought up the appropriations bills because congress tense do this through twelve appropriation spills. What are those and why do we do it that way, so that peace, The idea is that conceptually funding the army is really important and as one of congress, this core responsibility is. We want to make sure that's different parts of the congress. Different ass, sub committees of the appropriations committees are really did,

again and specializing in particular areas the federal budget islands. We want a sort of break it up and give the ability of one set of members to specialise in the defence budget and one that of members to specialise in the budget for the departments of labour, health, vehement services and education? and I'm ones that of budget members to speak lies in the budget for the vizier so early courage like specialization and the development of expertise among members of congress, so that's why congress has historically broken up the appropriations process into these twelve separate bills. It hasn't always Well, that's not like some magic constitutional number does number that we have right now and so the idea that began allows specialization of us. Members were voting on these bills on the floor, or selling really dig in two what's in them, and make the most responsible decisions possible about funding for different price it is on an annual basis. So a phrase were hearing.

over and over again in the coverage of this is that of the continuing resolution. There's also another piece of legislation that funding gets up in and that's the omnibus ira, number when I was a little baby producer on the hill hearing about the crime. The bus with You know we throw back that's down like a hybrid of those two thinks it was like the krona of congressional in writing. I really as delicious. Many are starting with the omnibus. The omnibus is basically instead of those twelve bill separately, or maybe congress rested on one or two of them separately, but has left the rest of them undone, I'm are unfinished: it's the press, the packaging, all of those bills. gather into one big bell, and so you could think of this, like a train and-

there's, a train car that has defence spending and unjust train car that has vs spending under the train car their spending, for interior and the environment. I would you I have an omnibus you put all of those cars together in one train, instead of sending them out individually. The content resolution is what we call a temporary measure that basically keeps the government I mean at usually the same spending levels as the previous year to buy congress more time to actually write those individual appropriations bills. do they get passed on their own or together in that big, combined, omnibus train and anyone resolution is what congress past and also what president Biden side and on Saturday night and it averted a shut down for forty five days? So what happens now thin? One son we got to do this all over again little over forty five days. There goes until november, seventeenth, which I think is like forty seven are forty.

days, depending on how you count, which turns out, is like a harder thing for congress to do than you would have thought so, we'll get to the middle of november and congress. Will you take action again to keep the government open, much like it needed to before saturday nights. One question is whether anything changes between now and then it's possible. I don't know it's terribly likely, but it's possible that congress does. Finish action on one or more of those stand alone. Appropriations bills that it's been debating, I missed that happened. That would just mean that any shut down that happened to him in november would be a little bit. Smaller would not affect all federal agencies in the way. One would have it if it had come to pass over the weekend, but yeah, basically his spies congress more time to try and reach either deals on the visual spending bills or a glow the odds on all of them together or an agreement to just kick them

and down the road a little bit more, perhaps made closer to christmas, I was going to say why that forty some odd days like wide that specific amount of time, so it takes us not quite to thanksgiving but close to thanksgiving and congress sort of works best with some kind of hard deadline, and so it may well be that their thinking, ok like penalized a home for thanksgiving, will be that action forcing mechanism. Often in recent years we have seen these continuing resolutions that get passed at the end of September run, although we aim to december that has become a kind of a stocking horse. Among republicans who don't like continuous

Women's there's a lot of rhetoric around. Oh, we don't like to get jam and by the holidays, likely not like it to get jammed by christmas. We hate it when we were forced to vote yes or no on something just because we want to go home for christmas, so I wouldn't put it passed congress to have moved it into november because they wanted to get out at least initially of that christmas trap, but this may seem sort of trivial, but, like this stuff can matter I'm a mail through just have been that forty five days or forty seven days were whenever we're talking about was the best that they could do was that there were. You know some but who wanted nothing or a shorter period of time. There are some people who want to learn, and then the november seemed like an effective compromise that so funny I feel like if they loved stressful deadlines, they should try a job and breaking news, but I guess

they're, making the breaking new, so I'm gonna say they are many of them would like nothing more to just constantly be breaking? Oh! No! Please don't do that. Please! No! Ok! So if we end up back in this state position around november seventeenth and the government does shut down. What are the consequences you mentioned? It wouldn't be as large scale as it would have been that that depends. We don't know that for one thing that could happen between now and the middle of november is congress is unsuccessful at passing any of its twelve appropriate.

Spells- and we got two november seventeenth and still none of the appropriations buzzard on all of the federal agencies are unfunded and then, in that sense, were basically back where we were at the end of last week. If congress words, she managed to do some of its individual bills between now and then those agencies that are covered by whatever bills they finished, they would be protected from a shutdowns which could be smaller in scope or it could be like it was going to be at the end of last week, where it's just all of the agencies and all of their discretionary operations. We don't know when we won't know until we get closer, who would a shut down? hurt like if it if a shot down happens, who are the people that are going to feel those consequences? Most started immediately? We have federal workers too. There are about two point, one million non postal federal employs some of those people would keep going to work but won't get paved while theirs to shut down,

and many of them will be what's called followed and will simply not go work and knock. It had all of those people Well, I'm particularly the ones to aren't working at all, provide various services that people in the american public depend on the kinds of things that will stop happening either right away or in a week or two depending on how long the shutdown last are. Things like most inspections water facilities and hazardous waste sites by the epa would stop. The FDA would continue sort of its highest risk, food safety inspections, but lot of routine inspections of lower risk foods, but stop Small business administration would stop processing new loan applications. The usda would stop loans to farmers, the justice department. Stop some litigation, so I could keep going the unrest list of the kinds of activities that would cease either.

italy or within a week or two, but is pretty clear that just from a kind of services perspective, we would get to the point where people would feel the effects. Pretty quickly, and let me tell you if you want to go visit a national park. That is also a thing that I would be worried about your chances of. Do, I think one of the things that happens when people think about federal workers, as they think of you, know just DC, which you know is its own can of worms because people live here, they work here they have livelihoods, rent has to get paid, but it's it's not all that accurate to just be thinking of diesel, when we think of federal workers, correct federal workers live around the country, and that includes military personnel. Stationed around the country, but even beyond military personnel thing if something like roughly two percent of most states employ

it is from the federal government. So you know there are some agencies that have big presences in certain states, the there s as employees all over the country, the sauce security administration employees all over the country. It's very easy to think that were just talking about folks who work in office buildings here in Washington DC bites the even just talking about the federal workers, peace, that peace is spread out all around the country as well, this could feel a little familiar to folks, who may be heard our episode about the debt ceiling and that there was a mad scrambled till midnight, and people were freaking out about money but the debt ceiling, and this congressional fight are very dear friend, tell us about the ways that their different. So I think we can about this and serve to is one that is substantively. So when we talk about the dublin em

a lot about it or who, this year. What we're talking about is whether congress is going to pay the bills that it has previously brought upon itself. It has made decades in decades of choices about how much money to bring in in taxes about how much money to spend in both mandatory spending song things like medicare in discretionary spending, which is what we're talking about. When we talk about the possibility of a shut down its. Maybe those choices over a series of decades, its wrapped up a bunch of bills and the debt limit is about actually paying those pills. I'm following through on its commitment to pay the bills it has artie. Kurt so in that way, it's like when you get your credit card bell, do actually pay the bill itself when we're tracking right now about the possibility of a shutdown and about the appropriations process. We're talking about choices, to spend more money in the future, so to put more things on the credit card

so the shutdown and the appropriations process is talking about future spending. The debt limit is talking about fulfilling our obligations to past spending and to passed bills. That congress has racked up. Another substantive difference is the economic consequences of breaching the debt limit are much more severe than the economic consequences of a government shutdown. That's not to say that a government shutdown would be good for the economy. We have reason to believe that it would at least temporarily sort of shave some off our our gdp. So a shutdown is not good for the economy, but it's not as bad for the economy as breaching the debt limit would be, but on the politics this year and protect Are these two things are actually linked to, and I just want to sort of sketch that out cause. I think it's important for understanding how we got here. So, in the spring, when President Biden and speaker Mccarthy reached an agreement to lift the debt limit, one of the items in that

The men were spending cats for the discretionary budget for this year, so limits on how big the pie that was gonna get divided up through the appropriations process. Limits on how big that pie was going to be pretty quickly after the house in the senate. Than the present by then signed that law that lifted the doubts ceiling, house. Republicans looked at those caps, but they had agreed to as part of that law and said you know what we don't actually want to spend Much money. We don't want to make the pie that big. We think that pie is too big. We wanted to be smaller we're gonna start writing a preparation spells just lower numbers than what we had agreed to with President Biden in LA la once. They started doing man. It turns out that in some cases it was hard for them to get republican votes in the house for those lower numbers for bills for in less than what the fiscal responsibility act provided for the difficult

that they had in passing their individual bills through the house republicans, that's part of what goddess the point in September where they had passed. Basically one their own appropriations bells. There are a really weak negotiating position, visited the senate and that's one of the things that have to generate sort of the crisis, the near me on a shut out, but that's all political connection between this choice that was made part of the deal: tourists, the debt, let I then, what republicans ultimately did with that choice and their decision to have go back on that deal, and that is a good one. The ingredients in the political soup that produced the crisis that we have So that's the congressional drama that got us here up next doesn't really have to be this way. Support for this show

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make sure they know that you heard about give well from the weeds to get your donation matched again. That's give well dot org to donate or find out more. The fox creative, this is advertiser content from us, dairy, has probably get treated better than I do. Michel Klein knows cows, she loves, counts, she's got to. as a third generation dairy farmer at silver meadows farm in western new york. Since nineteen fifty three, when her family starting silver matters, the herd has benefited access to a natural water supply our work supply here on the farm is provided by three wells, so you know we have to be very clear interpretive and be careful not to overuse our water supply, because if the wells go dry we have no water supply, so they recycle.

So any water that gets use to cleaner parlor pose down stalls blush any of the milk house that water is recycled and it sent in to the manure pit. and thanks to the naturally cool water supply their able to save on electricity because it pre cools their milk tank. It's always than our philosophy to be ahead of the game me don't over use chemicals, we don't overused fertilizers. We are proud to tell people these. Are the steps we're taking to mitigate our carbon footprint? We value everything we have our land area. Animals are workforce, it's not always easy, but we do We do because we love what we're doing.

You can learn more about the dairy industry, environmental and animal welfare efforts and initiatives at u s, dairy dot, com, slash sustainability, ok, molly! Last year you posted that you have been writing about shutdowns. For over seven years, and that's a lot- that's not a short amount of time. Well, what history? What is the history of our government shutting down? really key date in the history of shutdowns making. Eighty and then also I maintain eighty one, and there were some legal opinions from the? U S, department have just ass thou. Basically, what agencies could do in the absence of appropriations, and there are more restrictive and telling agency is how they can spend money. If there's no preparation spell that has been passed, and so even ask

the broader politic made shut out more likely because they restricted how agencies could spend money next bags. Of events in in shutdown. History is in the end of next thirty, five and the beginning of night him anything republicans I took power in the house in the nineteen ninety four midterms for the first time since the early nineteen fifties and in sort of a big budgetary conflict with president Clinton reduce shutdowns one lasting five days in november nineteen, eighty five and then a longer one, lasting twenty one days from now. Twenty five inches nineteen. Ninety six, this has never been done before. It is not a natural disaster It is an unnatural disaster, born of a cynical political strategy. We saw a long shut down in twenty thirteen october. That one was an engineer it by had crews than some other republicans around o bomber care. That one lasted sixteen days

in october of twenty thirteen, and then in twenty eightth hand. We saw a couple of events, so why is in the early part of twenty eightth team? There was a brief shutdown connected to an efforts to try Immigration legislation I don't know anyone else refers to it. This way I like to refer to it. As the talking stick shut down, the negotiations in, the senate involved. In meeting of by pakistan group of senators where they passed around, I'm talking effect of indicating whose turn it was to talk. What is a talking? Stick? Well, I show at eighty yo and ass. You can see it's beautifully be dead and was very helpful in making sure that every I d spoil god heard when we. During the discussions and my up as day after day after day, that's big summer camp in It is big summer camp energy, and you know that you have done at summer camp

Sometimes not all that lafrance, but uses same thing in my kids. Kindergarten caught now now at the end of twenty eight june and the big areas for they maintain is the last time we saw a long shutdown that lasted for thirty six days, the record length, and that one was the one that was brought about by a conflict between the two additional funding for wall on the southern border. At this point, budget fights and threats of a shut down feel like a given. It also feels like a huge waste of time and also taxpayers money. So I have to ask: why does the federal government do it's budget. This way is there: is there a particular reason? It's a good question, and one thing I'm going to just pick up on that. You said that I think is important. Is that merely the act of threatening

shut down and flirting with the shutdown is itself a waste of government resources, and they have to do that. Whether or not the shutdown actually happens, because they need to be ready. If it does, they basically needs to be ready to like turn off the government figure out who keeps working and then figure out what to do when they turn it back on that's money. That is not a time press. Most importantly, that is not being spent on other things that they could and should be doing as to. Why does the governments do it this way? Congress constitutionally has the power of the purse, that's one of its key constitutional responsibilities and when we think about what could set congress up to do that work most responsibly, I do think that there is a solid argument that congress should, on a regular basis, revisit federal programmes than say? Do we need to be spending this much money on this programme? Should we be sending more, should be spending less? What is

happening in the world. That means we need to adjust how much were spending on programmes as political control of the branches changes. What kind of representational reasons we should? Let congress decide whether its control by republicans are controlled by Democrats, how those majorities want to affects rate their policy priorities through the spending process, and I think that we can talk about whether like it should keep up the annual process. I tend to think so. I tend to think that you know the world changes fast enough conditions change fast enough. There visiting things on an annual basis is really the right cadence and that the problems here aren't really in the process that they're in the palace

checks and the way in which the appropriations process is being asked to bear a lot of political conflict that might have historically been fought out elsewhere in the legislative process. So we know that the constitution basically lays out the fact that progress is the one holding the cheque book. They set the budget for us. There ain't the czechs. They decide what to do with our money, but is there any other legislation that kind of lays out what this processes? still look like. Yes to that process has a schedule that aspires to follow and that schedule was most significant the revised for the last time almost fifty years ago, the congressional budget. act of nineteen, seventy four I'll celebrate its fiftieth birthday. Next year it was passed for a couple of weeks. One was in response to the next in administration, really to take more and more. I am spending power from congress and congress in really an active like institutional patriotism that we'd see.

You were in fewer of now on a bipartisan baseless, pushed back against the present and said no. This is our constitutional responsibility, we're to make some changes to how we do this, to really make it more possible and more effective for us to fulfil that responsibility at that's the law that gives us the calendar the congress disposed to follow, including the various deadlines. I would say that in the fifty years that the agricultural budget act has been around its never worked as great as its drafter least astern of ability to keep things on schedule has never worked as great as its drafters envisioned or how does the ideal This is regularly struggles over this period of time to get us work done on time. Think over the last two decades. The problem has gotten worse in terms of,

getting to amd the beginning of october and not having taken action, but I don't want us to hold too much of a kind of idealized past when everything worked great to have, but it certainly has gotten worse in recent years. Are there any other significant moments that well, the way we do. This has changed in history like it could be procedural or political, or you know, maybe just the vibes are different from how they used to be. When it comes to the budget. I do think the vibes are different one I mentioned before that I imagine any for republicans took control of the house after democrats having had uninterrupted control of the house, I'm since the early nineties, fifties. Democrats also enjoyed uninterrupted control of the Senate from that fifties and tell them Eighty when republicans took power in the summit with the election of ronald

and- and that kind of I think, matters, I'm in two ways. So one is that, when republicans took control of the house after the ninety four election, they did so on this kind of very anti government run against washington platform, which I think shaped some of their attitude towards federal spending in congress in the period after that more broadly when republicans took control of the senate in nineteen. Eighty, that's sort of shifted calculus of the two parties. It me if both parties think that they could either win or lose the majority after the next election. Prior to that, everyone can look to the next election said. Oh Democrats are going to win. If we won get anything done. It has to be through the democratic levers of power, because they're in the majority and they're going to be in the majority forever. Once we got this level of competition between the parties for partisan control, it really reshaped the

big, broader negotiating environment in congress, and I think that that has spilled over into the appropriations process. Why have we had so many shut down, or at least threats of them? It's like people, don't get anything done if there's no imminent threat of do like who s going on here, so some of that is just a sort of reality of like human psychology. When I teach about congress to students then tell them that, like this should I'll feel familiar to them, who procrastinate all of their papers to the last minute like there's. Some of it is that but more generally, as the legislative process has gotten more dysfunctional, as the parties have gotten more polarized as we ve entered period of pretty narrow majority, who were one party will have a majority, but it will often be with a pretty small margin for error in that political envy.

I mean it's gotten harder to legislate across the board, and so congress still has a couple of things most, notably the annual appropriations process that it has. You every year, because if it doesn't do them, the consequences are really big. Like go back to those two point, one non postal federal employees and the e p a actors and all that stuff we're talking about before. So you might think of this, like a game of wakeham, all and car dress wax down all the other moles, because, if not, can act on other kinds of legislation, but the one more left standing is the budget process the annual appropriations process. Instead, that gets all of the conflict and right now, you see it getting policy conflict. One of the reasons that the house has struggled to pass. The agriculture appropriations bill is

there's a provision in there that some republicans want that would defined the ability to send abortion medication through the mail. But that's a policy question. That's getting fought out on this appropriations bill and then so. There are these fights about Kevin Mccarthy and his position within the house. Republican conference they're getting far out on the spot, and it was just bearing all of this conflict in a way that never designed to because it was designed for a world where we, doing other legislating and having other fights other places. Congress does known that this is an issue for awhile for decades. Even have they try to fix it his tribe I'll just stay to start at the end of the day, like it's fundamentally a question of politics and of political. Well, there's a famous quote in budget worlds, which does not pick a place. people say the processes in the problem. The problem is the problem, and so I think it is helpful to remind us of that, but I will say

that I'm a little over a decade ago in two thousand and eleven congress passed something called the budget control act that was passed as part of a deal to spoiler alert. Raise the debt I meant in two thousand and eleven, and what that did was that for a whole decade, put these caps on discretionary spending, and so it said for the next day These are the limits that we're gonna have for the overall size of the federal pie for defence spending and the overall size. The federal pie for non defence spending congress pass thats present obama signed it and then about two years later, congress look to those limits and said: no. We can't abide by those there too strict. We want to spend more than that This is a really important illustration of the fact that, like a deal is only as good as the political commitments to stick to it. In this case, it was a situation where there is by personal meant that they want to spend more, so they reach agreement to relax those caps in the current episode. It's that there was not political,

women in the house republican conference to stick to the deal that mccarthy and Biden made. But when congress decided to relax those budget caps under the budget control act, they did so for two years at a time, CJ in two thousand and thirteen and again in two thousand and fifteen. One of the is that this did was get members of congress in a mindset that they would have this like big fight about these big numbers. First and then the rest of the process will flow from there, and very few members of congress have ever served in congress before these I have the budget control act. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but a majority of them have only been in congress since two thousand and eleven very few. It was probably too strong an expression, but a majority of them have only been in congress since On its, they don't really know how the process was designed to work because they ve never experienced it in. show more idealized, I'm ok, I'm so. Congress has tried fixing their own problems before

but that clearly has not worked. So where do we go from here? That's coming up after the bridge support for this comes from vice or shark a good soon. There is always find, but I think sparing says that people love the most about travelling. When you get back home, t shirt might bade and that's no blow my break, but its those once in a lifetime. Memories that will last towards a website in dab where you didn't book, travel experiences like architectural, sightseeing, snorkeling, excursions, sunset cruises and so much more with fire at all. You can reserve everything from simple tourist thrilling adventures with over three thousand book experiences in our hundred and ninety countries, whether you're a fucking, the history books. or an adrenaline junkie, there's something for everyone plus by tourists.

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it's the weeds, I'm drunk one hell and I'm here with molly reynolds and we ve been talking all about the no good, very bad federal budgeting process. I am an optimist molly, so I think there is room for hope. At least you know, or else that's how I gotta live, or else who knows what I'd be doing, what are some potential solutions to this? It feels like almost annual budget five, one of the most frequently offers solutions to this situation would be legislation that words automatically adopt a continuing resolution. If we get to the point where the regular preparation spells run out and congress hadn't acted, so we start with these as automatic continuing wrestle Hence we heard a lot of talk of that possibility in twenty nineteen, after the end of that shutdown

would certainly help solve. One very specific dimension of this problem is not clear to me that it would actually incentivize members You get their work done in a more timely fashion, because, particularly if you are a person who wants government spending to be less, you might actually be ok with just having Continue at the previous years levels and never have an opportunity to go up, would adjusting for inflation a help. that issue at all or is the kind of like we gotta assess, says we go a kind you can have the automatic contain resolution, be bike, lashers levels plus some injury? spent for inflation. That will be one way to address. Of my concerns about it. But I think again, at the end of the day like this is a constitutional responsibility of the united states congress, and I think we should be trying to set

I'm up for success in fulfilling that responsibility more than we should be trying to you're out like what clever back saps can we create to help them avoid doing what there must be doing. Another idea would be to do all of this process every two years and serve every year. Some states do it this way they make decisions on their budgets. Every two years As I said earlier, I can see why that's an attractive idea. I tend to think that the reality is that the policy making process on the policy challenges facing the country mean that congress should visit. questions every year and is also not clear to me that the dysfunction We are experiencing on an annual basis. Now would be last if we did this for every two years are you. A different agenda is not clear to me that time is the only problem blasting that on,

is that you will sometimes hear proposals that are meant to try and like incentivize congress to get its work done. One of these involves not paying members of congress if they haven't adopted, their appropriations bells were like not letting them go home for the august recess if they have adapted their preparation, spells number one is really hard to get those things to stick. You must ever what actually wants them to stick and the case of never pay, as I had a constitutionally suspects, the twenty seventh amendment says that members can't you in their own pay in the same fashion, like any change my mind after the next election and throw their pay cannot be completely withheld. I do think that some members have arranged to have their say.

A deferred until the end of a shot down. So that like there and I can pay tax while their constituents who might be her own place are not but again fundamentally like. I don't think the problem be solved by not paying members. I think the problem is in the politics and what incentivize is members to hold out throughout this process? What's your personal favorite idea this off this problem other than you now locking. I guess all the members of congress in a room together and making them do trust fall so that they act right. what is the solution there to sort of processed oriented things that I think could help there not magic? I'm nothing here is magic. I touched before about the annual appropriations

well, unless congress is supposed to earlier in the year, had a sit down and decide what the overall size of the pie is going to be and they're supposed to that through something called the budget resolution and then that pie gets divided up and actually allocated and pushed out. The door via the appropriations bills, I think you could probably decide the overall size of the pie on a two year basis. I think that would be ok and then in the second year. You would not have to go back all the way to the very beginning and have that, like big negotiation over the size of the pie, you have already decided that in the previous year and then you who yet the appropriations process moving more quickly. The other thing that I would say that we have these twelve bills that part of the process for the bills are actually getting rim in committee, still works reasonably well like we still have members who cut a specialised in particular areas to get really, not

jabez about the appropriations bell in their area. Take a lot of testimony from a ministry the about where the money should be going? Like that part still works pretty well and where it's gotten a lot harder is the part where actually bring the bills to the floor, and so we seen in the last several years through tagamet, the omnibus, before you seem congress, experiment with something that folks curtly call minibuses and fifty, which is to say that, instead of putting all twelve of those train cars together, you stay put two of them together or three of them together and package and then send that to the floor, and I like that idea. It preserves one of the most important parts to me of the process, which is like the building the expertise and the deliberation on the front end, and then it kind of meets congress where it's at in terms of the political challenges of moving things on the floor and allows you to sort of package and log roll across different issues. So before I was saying

in two thousand and eighteen, we had only a partial shutdown. I'm not all agencies were affected, and one of the reasons that was true was because, in september of two thousand and eighteen congress chuck the defense appropriations bill and the bill funding the departments of labor health and human services and education, so something that is often important to republicans and something that is often important to democrats and put them together into one big bill and said. Okay, we're sending this to the floor and republicans who want the defense budget. We're going to dare you to vote against it. Democrats who want the funding for these social programs are going to dare you to vote against this and that sort of allowed for, like a really important act of coalition building. So I think that getting away from this idea that, like we have to do twelve bills on the floor

because there's something magical about twelve, I think, is part of where I see some promise. I am wondering- and I realise this is very chaotic, but you know sometimes you gotta be a chaos agent. Could the federal government just ignore the shut down and just lake he'd go in. I have mentioned before these legal opinions from that this department in my team. Eighty youth- and they are interpretations of something called the entire efficiency acts and basically boeing, short version. Is that those interpretations they may really I heard for federal agencies to just keep going in the absence of appropriations legally, not to mention the fact that, like at some point, you would actually run out of money, so both of those things are limiting yeah? Ok, so molly we have averted the shut down for now and

I'm wondering what you're going to have your eye on and what you'll be watching over the next several weeks as we gear up for Lastly, another battle over the budget can foster couple thing, so one probably most immediately as its crest of what happens to Mccarthy it is becoming increasingly clear who the speaker of the already works for, and it's not the republican conference. A second be watching is whether they can get any of those individual spending bills done between now and mid november. That would if there is ultimately I shut down in mid november that would again less than that pain a little bit. The third thing I'll be watching is kind of how the negotiations between the house the

generally over these spending bills, go between now and bent over the typical way that the appropriations process has unfolded in recent years, even without the kind of acute shut down politics that we have been experiencing is that congress misses the October first outline. They have some sort of containing resolution to buy themselves some time and then there's some ultimate big omnibus spending bell that resolves some or all of the appropriation spells out together in december, and I think many people think that's probably still were headed by getting to that point requires a lot of intense negotiations between the house, the senate, so we'll know a lot more in the coming weeks that how those negotiations are going and whether we might actually gets too that place. It can be hard for congress to get there but belle of november, but might take a close and then by themselves a couple more week. I dont know we'll stay, but those

the kinds of things that I'm watching alright Molly reynolds thanks so much for joining me and with any luck we will not be having this conversation again in november. It was a pleasure, but we should all be very happy if I don't return to the podcast in november. That's all for today. Thank you to molly reynolds for joining us. Our producer is still feel aligned. Chris JL engineered this episode, laura bullard and Serena solon fact checked it. Our editorial director is an paul and I'm your host Jon cornhill. This podcast was part of VOX, which doesn't have a paywall tapas. Keep it that way by going to vox dot com, slash, give.