This episode of the verge cast is brought to you by I b m. Did you know that sixteen million new collar jobs will be created by two thousand and twenty four to help fill the I ibm new education model gives high school students, workplace experience and and associates degree. Ninety tech schools are already preparing graduates for tomorrow stem careers. Let's put smart to work now how at ibm, dot com, slash, p tack, that's peason, Paul tech as intact. the hello and welcome to the verge cast greetings mobile accomplished. This is a flagship. High castle diverged dot com. I am dieter bone knee lie is not here, and maybe, if you're nice tell you I am joined by, people populaires here below guarantees here spell I'll casey witness here, what up we're going to have the whole staff on? Because that's what we have to do when we don't have now? I know the Neela is not

here, because a nila is a father, leave yea go find him on instagram at a reckless and like the picture of the baby, very cute baby, very cute baby. She is very cute. Her name is max maxwell, maxwell saya Beautiful acts, maxwell sire, now just just maxwell and backs. For short, I suspect most people walk your max bid, she's she's, a happy baby new, I seems to be a happy dad. I'm sure he's gonna, be fine, we'll be fine Yes, I think that this will be a great thing for him. I think it's actually imports for for technology journalists to have children in their lives, because it is the children that are going to tell them. What is the next new important thing to focus on men like you have children in your life to say, hey I'm using the new being bog app and everyone at my middle school is doing being bonding out now in the virgin fundamentally about the future, and, I believe

the children of what I think the best way to to predict the future is to create it by having children, and that is exactly what we have done. I would ask that we have no more jokes casey. You have a really chill we great hoo, hoo doggies, it has been totally relaxing. You live like mark Zuckerberg testified before congress for approximately three thousand our elites, who is ten hours, it felt like three thousand toward the. There is a move it yesterday, where my brain had never felt my sure, like I hid sort of lapsed into this pure transcription mode, where I felt incapable of sorting important questions from unimportant question, and indeed act

It made me respect, mark zuckerberg in a new way as a he did not have the luxury of his brain. Turning into my, she had to be on point for ten hours under in in a very high pressure situation. So ok so set the scene sewed day. One was a senate. They too was the house. He was going there to just answer questions from angry congress. People like what's the story, that's me really right here. You ve been reading the verge over the past three weeks, you ve probably seen our courage of the cambridge analytical data privacy scandal and the gist of that scandal is that of a researcher tricked a bunch of people into giving away their personal information, which he then sold the cambridge analytical, which then used it for a bunch of an affair as political, add targeting purposes and where, although facebook, was aware of this. It apparently did not investigate to see whether cambridge Analytica had deleted the data as they were supposed to, and so a lot of people got very mad and congress called Zuckerberg to account for everything that had been going on, but, as

happens at these sort of hearings while it started with cambridge analytical, it suits the soon move on to many. Other topics are related to the ceiling, never ending a cascade of scandals that phase we has gotten wrapped up in since the twenty six election favour. Question my request: is that anyone ass man well from the standpoint of social media democracy, which is one of the things I care a lot about. I really appreciate it. That lindsey graham asked Zuckerberg straight up whether facebook had gotten powerful and whether it was a monopoly. He asked Zuckerberg to name his biggest better and as we reported Zuckerberg really couldn't name one, and that question is important because it forces. I think all of us to reckon with the unchecked nature of power that not just facebook have, but all of the big tat platforms, how, whether you're talking about a google or an amazon or an apple right, that the decisions that these

please make a fact, not just americans, but billions of people around the world and in it seemed like the senate In the house this week we're belatedly waking up. To that I mean I didn't watch all ten hours, because, oh my god, also disclosure. My wife works for oculus, a division of facebook. There you go, I expected to watch it and see a bunch of senators and congress. People not understand technology. and I my expectations were for matched I dunno did. Was anybody generally impressed? There were, like maybe four things that I saw was like? Yes, I'm I'm impressed with the level of this question. You, like you, picked a thing and you, when you did it to sri, question, but everybody else was like well I'm here. Well it it seems like the whole thing is up. I really don't like these kinds of, especially it's not like it's a criminal investigation of something mark. Zuckerberg is not part of the government. So they're not like investigating their own suit. So you end up with like this weird, like a lot of people. Posturing and.

Oh, I I feel like a correct me. If I'm wrong, I didn't watch the whole thing or hardly any of it. I relied on the excellent verge coverage to summarize it for me, but I mean a good, a large majority of it is just the congress person like promoting self promotion, yeah there's a lot of grandstanding and a lot of putting themselves over and and hilarious. actually a lot of requests for favors from artists like we're really yeah there is an axios, did a great little piece about everything that lawmakers asked Zuckerberg for and it was mostly could you please bring fiber to my world district and that give local Would an opportunity say: well, you know we're building an internet plan that can beam it straight to the ground so and so yeah. There was a lot of congress people grandstanding, but this is a case where it is helpful and meaning it helpful just a day later after the hearings are over to take a deep breath and really go through the trends

and really identify what was knew that we learned from the hearings Ed and what we're really sharp questions that that got asked again. There is a set of questions that I would highlight in that regard that I think you are going to see drive the next wave of facebook coverage, so you have two representatives, Joe Kennedy, I believe Ben Lou Hahn, who asked about the data that facebook collects about you that you did not give your explicit, informed consent to add. As best as I can tell there are at least three of these categories. So one is, if you are not logged into facebook or you don't have an account and you visit facebook any public page on facebook on the web. Facebook tracks that They say that's for security reasons, because a shadow dead mile is, it is part of a shadow pro.

Well in what they say is if they did not track it, then you might be able to go in and scrape every public page on facebook, and do god knows what, with it soap? Okay. So that's the first. category. So this is just like. Oh here's, a visitor coming from this ip address. I've got to this page. We're just going to keep an eye on this person. here for doing anything, crap makings, I'm not onlooker- are bought by, for example, to add per This is so there's this thing called the facebook pixel, it's a piece, a code that advertisers can put on websites all around the web to track your views, whether you have a facebook account or not, and then facebook, which has an extra all advertising network can then use that information to target ads You know this is just a standard like this is just a standard tracking pixel that, like every ad network on the planet, does and facebook just happens to be another ad network. Do you know if the tracking pixel happens with the like a like, but not a page, yes, it absolutely does. Okay and my response to phase because just another add network is well actually fees because we're

the two biggest ad networks in the entire world: yeah no I've I was playing devil's advocate and facebook is quote unquote, just another ad network in the same way that google is quote unquote, just another ad network or sure sure. So that's category you and then category three which actually got no air time during the hearings but which I think is important to point out, is data that it collects for growth reason. So if any of your friends uploaded their contacts and your contact as in their than facebook, has your phone number and using these three credit data I just described. They can build what Paul just refer to as a shadow profile. A bunch of information about you would you know where you've been on facebook, where you've been on the web? Who your friends are and they've built this? This really, you know complete picture. Well, I shouldn't call it a complete picture, but let's say it's like a We had a picture of who you are that no wise, all this important? Well, what Major lines of questioning during the hearings was ok. Mark, like data privacy, is really important. What you need

give us control over our data and mark would say repeatedly senator congressmen. You have control over your data. You can delete any of your data from face right, except when it got to these categories. Now of the three that I mentioned, it is true that if you have a facebook account, you can opt out of web tracking, ok, which leaves the other two, but that still leaves these two categories of information that faced with is collecting about you. whether you have a facebook account or not, and you as a human being to actually do not have control over that in a meaningful way, and so I think this is. gonna drive kind of that next wave of coverage is facebook, so You can delete the data that that you know you have volunteered to give it, but actually facebook collect. a lot more information about yield and what I just There may be more categories of information that were so waking up to what about like. Where do you like, anti tracking browsers and something like brave or some ad blocker? How does that fit into this picture?

it is it is anybody on the facebook site suggesting like well, you don't want to be tracked, set up set up some donuts as arm yourself, it's a really interesting question, and that may in fact be their response? a hard time, imagining that them recommending that you use a browser or an ad blocker. They read it. I just can't imagine them doing it, but that may turn out to be an effective answer. Blue. In a for so long facebooks primed erected has been to grow. And that has meant getting really creative about figuring out who people are and it's worth mentioning. Why are they doing all this? While the reason is so, let's say you know Paul if you'd come, to the internet and immediately decided to create a facebook account which maybe you did, and if I bring that up. Chris Paul had a great on our side today about a sort of advice for people who want to quit social media that I recommend everyone could read. But let's eat you, you deleted your facebook counter deactivated and when you came back You'd create a brand new one, facebook widdle just from your email address, and your

One number people would actually already know who all your friends were and they'd say: hey Paul, here's, your sixty eight best friends and you know you could go, go ahead and add all of them and that's important, because what facebook is bound is the faster that it connects you to all your friends, though, they'll have you like? You'll spend more and more of your time there you'll see more ads. That is a better business for facebook. If you're there with all your friends, and they would argue connecting you with your friends, this is what they're all about. So this is why they're they're collecting all this data, but, as we saw with the cambridge analytica scandal and data, has other uses right. I really warming up to this metaphor about our public data as toxic waste right. It's a hooker here, it's like the by product of the thing we actually want to do and over time it just gets gets. more and more poisonous and its often many years after we gave it a way that it comes back to haunt us and by the way,

Keep learning about facebook say us, it's like you know like when your skin, you, your constantly shutting little particle your skin and if you don't vacuum every now, and then your rug gets really crappy, and then you get allergies, star sneezing, that that is so good I I like you're, just leaving dead skin all over the internet that is so gross and the way I feel like the way they collect the information to you. It's super tricky like if you just download messenger and you think you don't need a facebook account to have messenger use, download it and, like the first thing you'll say is like. Would you like to upload your contact book and you're like sure? Why not or have you signed up for instagram, Would you like to upload your contact book and find your friends and you like sure why not, unlike its like, like the big blue button, that use click to that most people? Are you looking at their fallen in it just like next? Next from pictures on instagram, and they don't realize the they press is yes upload, my entire contactless and now all your friends are shadow profiles as opposed

right area, very tiny acted like no don't do that. People to skip it and let's talk about is what gives you the show those contacts. So if you do this through instagram, for example, own williams, twitter personality tweeted, the actual flow on the on the instagram mobile up the other day, and here's would have as you enter your name in your password, and there is little message that says your contacts are periodically sentenced. Ford, honour servers to remove com let's go to settings and disconnect learn more and an underneath out, there's a giant blue that says next and then underneath that much smaller fought, there's, tenable tax that says continue without singing context. Of course, in the vast majority of people are just gonna click the next, but because what they dont realises. The next button is the yeah go ahead. Upload all of my friends, information button writers that so interface on one hand, is talking a great game about giving you control over your private information, but they're. All of these surfaces of the app that tell a different story, which is

still growth at all costs? Well, in the correct me, if I'm wrong the the facebook calling it pixel, let's be clear how these ad trackers work if they can get your ip address or they don't know who you are, ad tracking has gotten very sophisticated and they put like a little canvas object and they use a profile of your computer. Basically, how your computer her, renders that little pixel gives the formation of who you are there not just like that? Not just taken the data when it's there there not just collecting the the that the deadline, you ve left behind their walking up to you and scraping it off. I mean to be fair. I think it's television does a sewer eighty tv programming to just figure out like who is watching and if they're still watching television programme, my thanks are due to the willing on its was operating on a tv were like ebay, flash, a certain type of photo and manufacturers. Do this like tv for sure like?

So a pixel on tv during a certain programming its own time of day in whatever market year, end figure out whether you're watching this particular programme and then you're smart tv sees that, and so you haven't been CBS. I'd have to be smart lake tb advertisers. Just can't do that and figure out whether you're watching us, I'm programming based on whenever pixel are showing your tv, oh, my god, well, shut it all down. Ok, I think that here is what I ve learned about this week, is that I think congress and people in general just don't know how offline advertising even works, which is why this whole thing is a freaky to our people could like. This has existed for tv and as exists for offline, for, when, like you sign up for a supermarket loyalty card and in randomly coupons, europe the house like? I think this type of blake, tracking and advertising has happened for awhile and like now, the tapping at a scale of facebook which you use- nine hours a day like people freaked out right.

Also say it's easy to buy a tv that isn't flashing these secret pixels at you and it's hard, and I use facebook regarding these harder yeah. So ok extreme devils, advocate sure let facebook I myself they provide. Nice free service me- and I like talking to my friends and I like looking at pictures of ceramics of them having. Bunch of information about who I am and who can the two socially is the price that I pay for that I'd rather do that in fibre. What, especially since, as the only option, what's the big deal, I mean, I know the answer, but I just want, I wanna hear everybody say it. I think that is a fair question. The the story that kicked all of this off was well The data that we give a wave of facebook turns out not to have much control over, and one thing that we know happened is that a product consulting firm got hold of it and tried to use it to create highly forget it adds an too

persuade us more effectively because they learned things about us that we never would have voluntarily told them right now. There been plenty of reports that that that particular kind of targeting might not have been all of that useful. In this case but in an election where a lot of people were unhappy about the outcome and where the cause, or rather the result had a lot of causes. I think people have kind of gloved onto this as wow here is concrete case where me giving away my data, may have had some sort of impact on the world around me. So you know, even if you think that that impact is overstated, I do think that it exists era. It just sort of opens up this door toward will my gosh, what our other people doing with my and the whole purpose of these hearings was to try to get a handle on that and think well, who else has this data and what are they doing with it? Because again, this gets down to the level of facebook being able to know who you're married

do not because you said I married to this person on your facebook profile, but because through location tracking, they that you sleep in the same house, and this is real, and this is technology. Gee that they brag about having during a presentation advertisers last year. So that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Ok, so then the big question that had they Zachary, whether ready for it, and then it came up and like lots of weird differ ways like ok, so we we obviously have to regulate facebook, but what does that even look like? So it could look like a lot of things, and I would be quick to add that I do not think that regulation is imminent because we live in a country. That seems a who's to regulating big companies generally and particularly during this administration. So, in a way, facebook has a great opportunity, I need to go out and regulate itself and try to avoid a true round of regulation if and when democrats ever come back into power, but there are other things that could be done in the meantime, and you should

red on the verge of story rend today by Russell Brandon, about a concept that a yell professor has called an information, fiduciary or sounds kind of a ridiculous thing. Care. But there are similar positions in like the baking and finance industries, where sort of as a I'm requirement of being in an industry you greatest follow certain standards and procedures and kind. It becomes a good house. Being seal of approval for for your company, and so he's arguing that facebook, google twitter, they would have an incentive to participate in a system where they, as agreed, to abide by certain standards, and then this permission fiduciary would essentially be able to honour their records and see whether they were living up to the promises that they made. And what's appealing about this, if you're a consumer is that the companies could just sort of agree to do it, and you wouldn't need to wait for

a new congress to come up with a regulation. So, ok, let's assume it that's coming at some point, but the thing it was on the table right away was the the g pr rustles, but on the show targeted before, privacy relations in europe and like it seems like the answer to why? Don't you just make two judy pr rules available around the world and like to have that be the standard everywhere was like he gave different aunt. two. It was also like it superficially for me to watch bunch of centres and irish people, who, I think, and any other contacts a future. How about you, take some european regulation and applied in america? They would have been like war, no hell, no they're. Only. What about that gdp? Her there's up like the europe did the work of dissent what it wanted the standards to be when we in america, and now we're just what? If we just do that and the answers two been yes well know well kind of in the same. It's like it, but like I don't I don't get what their position is on that at all. They have given mixed message

Frankly, I think some of the reporting about what facebook has said has been inaccurate. There were there were reports that facebook has said that it would not rule out gdp our protections globally and then they came back well, we didn't say that and then. Finally, yesterday the hearing soccer bird said Silverberg rather said: yes, we will roll out these protections and there will be some differences and I am willing to take mark at his word when he says that they are going to roll out these productions and that there will be some actually minor differences between countries that are there that are just rooted in the factory different legal systems and I'm sure there's gonna be different wording. But you know the spirit of the thing is you, as a citizen should be able to request of any company a copy of the data that any other company has developed about you. I mean that's really the the spirit of it, and that does seem like something that facebook

can live up to you and in fact they already have a download your information tool which lets you download all the information that you voluntarily contributed to facebook. Now an interesting question would be well. Could you request your shadow profile right then? So these are some the debates that I think you'll see playing out look over the next six months or a year or or request. The reasoning that went behind while you're being shown a mad at any given moment would be really really flush the term labour rights I love that idea, but I loved that idea was that just for just real quick mean so much of the the the fear and the the outrage that that tech platforms experience now is because they are racing to build these ay. I systems that can't explain themselves and see you wind up with so much uncertainty. What's going on I'm. I believe that one of the big reasons that there is

is urban legend that process that facebook is spying on all of our phone conversations so that it can target ads, as is precisely because we don't have the button that you just mentioned, Paul's that you can't just hit something like hey why, why are you showing me and add to visit copenhagen, because it gives us talking about that with my friends friend devotees, there's, there's no way that they could provide but you just certainly cannot the eyes doing need that you click the button and the button would pop up these same dialog box every time and it would say yeah. We don't know the computer thought it might be good or it could say, what this advertiser wanted to reach men between the ages of thirty and forty who lived in the united states like that, like adds, actually are a case where the air could explain itself released a little bit So I've been reading a really wonderful book about machine learning called the master algorithm. I saw this guy. This guy gave a bunch like ted talks and stuff when the His book came out and his machine learning researcher he's kind of a machine learning utopian. He talks

what about how they just need more and more data, but there's there's a there's, a clear separation of concerns that I really like this judiciary idea, but I I in this book he he presents an option where you have something that's kind of like a bank. for your data. So all data about you goes to your your bank, it's the though at another, but What are you gonna call the wells, fargo of personal information, I ok wells fargo as a bank with money, if you think about it, it's their job to hold on to your money, to give it back to you. If you want it and to give it to other people, when you say it's ok, yeah, so I've just been thinking about there's gotta be some ways to separate the collection of data from the usage, because, ultimately we want facebook to be able to use the data. I d

we lay I'm excited about a lot of these applications and machine learning, we have some company had not just the profile that they can build on. by tracking me obsessively but combining that with the profile that netflix can build amazon can build, they can get a much larger picture. of, of who I am rise. What you're saying is data? Has we agree in the abstract, has some sort of value and therefore can be used to. Trade with each other, but there needs to be ways to track it, and also maybe we should make consider making it like that absence. In concrete in some way, and so we need institution, that stores that value and when we need maybe look dont, know slip of paper that are like you know, created by it. Institution that that you know is willing to back them up if necessary. Or maybe or maybe- or maybe this, this abstract concept of our data that has value there. It should actually be

act in a really big way, such that, like we know that these two actions actually occurred. It could be maybe like a really large public leisure ledger that gets verified by the actions of a computer jp. You that do math problems palace invented the blockchain policy that a day until two further anchored on facebook, you actually there is actually a bundle says why my theme is, but Do they really tell you how much it says, like we sign As for the verge, because you are between a certain age- and you like reading over, like something super vague like that, so it's it's about just figuring out, How do we weigh more transparent and democratic, appoint yacht both existing? your that only through that's true is literally anything that to happen, As literally something is going to happen, and here's how you know, because over the past three weeks things have been happening, facebook totally locked down, it's apia, so much of information that it used to share it no longer does they did a steady drip, drip drip of announcements in the

is leading up to the hearing precisely so they could turn around and say just look at everything we ve been doing since those happened right. He had I by fully believe that that's gonna continue, because the scrutiny is not going away. Ok, Well, I like that. How do you know I like the fiduciary, Imagine a world where facebook has agreed to this industry standard and just the green ssl lock when you're on a site that is agreeing to the standard. You get a little icon like the terms of service, have that I can like. I know at that that I can means, and then, if they did they don't that industry group out them for not followed. those agreed again rules. I think that could definitely help us because we're not all get a red, terms and conditions, and I feel it part of the eu in EU solution is ok, just get them to agree to everything up front. So, though, the flexibility down the line, they could do the second

c p, a is just like a lawyer. Just like an actuary is that all of the above I'm just I'm trying to imagine the call the programme has had an or take ADI. I you know, I read russell store, I'm not an expert on the proposal, but you know it doesn't seem to me to be all of that different from almost bar association, but at the company level right where it's like you note, when you're, when you become a lawyer, you agree to uphold certain standards, and if you do not, you can be disbarred and I think You know there would be similar mechanisms with this kind of information fiduciary they also. They need a better. circular just sounds the fact that their actually, there was a name that god pitched during the hearing about one of the representatives yesterday, which I think was something like you know,

need a ring live as these are large, who was no delays are still essentially like that there should be much as there is a consumer financial protection board. There should be a consumer data protection bored with which I also really like it. You can we talk briefly about how almost half of the answers for has argued, break answer all the congress. People with like we rely on me I or like we're building an eye or early. I will solve the problem that sea very well ay. I is a magic talisman and when where you're threatened in congress or elsewhere. You just wave it in front of the face of whoever is talking to you and you say: oh no, no, no, the ai will fix the problem.

And for some reason, we've just agreed to nod and accept that answer. I think that's that's appropriate. I mean it's kind of crazy to me because, like the first one of the first reasons like ai was brought up was when TED cruz was like well, why, or why is like a facebook seems to be anti conservative and there's a bias and like blah blah and like these pages, are being Locked and Zuckerberg is like well like in the future, like ai is going to figure out, what's inappropriate and we're going to take that down, and you know all these other people hyped on light, inappropriate content on facebook, but, like isn't ai, like algorithms, inherently, are biased like you're supposed to teach it what to give preference to so like how this is going to fix that problem. I don't like. I don't really understand what this whole ai narrative is going it's a great point, because automated systems are the reason that many of these pages or posts are being withheld or temporarily suspended in the first place, like some key word

triggers a review and the thing gets withheld right. So it's like a. I is at the root of this problem already and even Zuckerberg as agreed that training jeanne learning system, to understand speech well enough to be able to draw these incredibly hard distinctions between? What is political speech in what is hate speech like that's, that's that's very have enough, and that is not going to be up and running and working really well within the next five years, or maybe even ten years right. So you know I said no one was more disingenuous over the past few days than ted crews. Various, I know a second evergreen every reinstatement pin tweet whatever you want to call it support areas hangovers over donald trump, in the primary legislation like to have that on the record. Now, don't you you'd do deserve praise for that. I suppose

hi. There is the important thing that I think to remove. Where is that there is no systematic bias, ants conservative news on facebook. If you are a conservative person, you can choose to like only conservative pages and be front only conservative people and they will feed you a steady diet of conservative everything for the rest of your life and facebook is happy to do it and if you look at which pages get the most engagement out of any on facebook, cluster the top or a bunch of conservative sites, so we have seen no evidence that conservatives are any disadvantage to any other ideology on facebook and in fact they may have an advantage because in- and we saw that during the twenty succeed election, where it was some of these. conservative leaning viral hoaxes such as the pope endorses donald trump. They got more shares than almost anything else. I just wanted to two points.

Something about machine learning, an ally that I learned from this excellent book called the master her them that I read it, but one of the things that the book points out is that an ai algorithm is literally, a hundred per cent ass. The magically prove oblique ineffectual without bias, like the content of any eye, is the bias that it has learned on train data right. So though we have the word biased, as have pejorative in this, that you lean one way or the other, but the whole content of a machine learning algorithm is the bias that it has learned from how it's been trained, and so therefore week we are definitely not going to solve bias by me. logical ay. I because all we're doing one

building, a I is feeding it bias in, were hopefully choosing what upright violets. What's the right bias? well, I'm gonna ruin add now- and this is this is this is quite the add for this moment. Did you know that by twenty fifty the, world population will reach nearly ten billion and food production will to grow by guess what how much park is, how much is going to grow by Seventy percent: that's how much what an artificial intelligence could help. Farmers are already using it to help increase crop yields. Watson and the I m cloud provide access to data and analyze satellite imagery to help them monitor soil, moisture levels and reduce water waste. So as a poppy it grows more food can be put on tables. Let's put smart to work, find out more at I be m dot com, slash smart, say I heard the words

So often over the past couple of days, and after a certain point, I just Is your dad that, like how babies were further yeah, so it was like hearing a bunch of senators say now. Tell me about your data like what is happening here. Should I get cigarettes that I, on April Twenty fourth spotify said it's going to make a quote news: announcement narrowminded no attack. That meant, but we saw a thing Think that may be is the thing can in what it was a thing today, several days

I don't know who love what spies? I can announce a day, just ip odin annual, so that means that they could radically changed the service itself, but what we did find as there is a leak of a hardware device, that's basically dislike the thing that you attach too. I guess your air event in the car and you can use it to ask it to play any random spotify music. So things It was like a digital assistant, but all it does is play spotify stuff. We don't really know anything about it, other than that. It's just supposed to be this thing that attaches in your car and like the leak that we saw may not even be what it'll actually look like. What we saw is like the circle. It looks kind of like a button or pin that you just kind of clip on kind of like how you would clip on up fallen holder in your car, and it has a little screen on it. That says what you're listening to there's a pause. It's a shuffle, there's a rewind button and that's basically it and then like a little talking bubble that says: hey spotify play my discover: weekly,

and that's all we shall. We have no idea whether has third party integrations anything else. We know that it can play spotify you talk to it. I mean it's a lot. We know a lot about sweden's this, it's gotta display, so it's like others, actually display. It has voice input in some way. It's got controls it probably amino connected either other you were ox opera. we blue tooth and then the the thing was that it was maybe to be part of a subscription. So, like you just like you, you pay like thirteen buxom months as one screenshots that we saw in the attic lamb by shooting cleared the service like spotify premium rate, would be crazy for them to sell that at with ad. Ok, ok! who wants to go on a marvellous journey with me. Imagine if there's one mount for your car event and another mount, the you can put on. Ike arm strap and you can take this running

few alibi add up device that can play spotify, without having the same having to think anything with. I want to carry your phone, isn't it I think I think anything that anything that those that spotify makes is wearable, they should call body fi. the eye of. Why I mean I would by the hell out of this thing, I thought if I yeah I defy for sure the car? I drive it not an I once week, once every couple weeks, these days, I have android auto, not my were just talking about this so I have entered otto which has spotify on it, and I would still consider buying this thing hundred otto is hot garbage, free right now and always fine for me, I, like it just nine. I like how how much you can think of your android, oh using it forces directions and like hey, play this random song. It slow

disconnects it like you can't you can only tap the screen. I think four times or five times before the whole thing freezes and tells you that is unsafe for you to be doing what you're doing yeah over to find her playlist on spotify. Very, very oddly thy is not happening for me. but I can sympathise that it's still a relatively new software like I'll only new cars still have them but like if, despite a fine thing, that's her where, with no name has thoroughly party integration that has lake any kind of map, integration that basically just like andwent, audio like a Google home that you stick to your car that I can see that being worthwhile. Because of you can speak to it. You say hey spot. fi. He don't say alexa tell us about. If I dont say, hey google like their building their own voice assistant, now too we are, we know they work is actually already live in the EU. S up does not work

well, when you're on the street is the lesson I learned recently. If you are alone in a quiet, room works fantastic, but man. I tried to get it to play something when I was walking around town the other day, and it was just not happening for me. So you have you have to open the app and then like that. If you go to there's a search feature in the app and if you, when you tap that there is a microphone button, you taught microphone and then you just say what you want. This is a great idea. I mean the thing that I'm most excited about is just that: spotify is making hardware period because right now, in order to have a great spotify x Since that is not on your phone. You have to use somebody else's hardware right, like you have to plug it into your Oh no speakers, you have to connect it to your alexa device. I all I want is like a spotify version of the home pod. Basically, except that I want it's a common, multiple, flavors and sizes, so I can have, may be one big one and a few little one but I still want the ultimate spotify hard.

and, having spent four months, with the sun, us one like. I know it's not the same as one and I also feel export if I can just be smarter about if they work on it like when you're talking to spot a fight like right now, if I say alexa play angel olsson on spotify half the time alexa will play a spot if I radio station with angel olsen, but the other half the time elapsed. Just find some ran a thing. That kind of sounds like, like the words angel also any could be literally all music in the world, where spotify knows that all. I ever do is listening angel also thought I should have a pretty good idea, trying to listen to and can send me right there. If anything, my feeling, as bob. I was like. I almost wish that it would be a little bit more creative in what it suggest like it's kind of like you know how you, like you, buy a toilet on amazon and then for the next. Like eight months it tries to sell you an additional toilet, like I sort of feel that way about spotify or it's like

this song twice yesterday, maybe we'll make that the lead song on your max its acknowledge play just me and others on by that artists, this is a classic problem. Machine learning that is, thankfully addressed by the master, a hook, a promo code. For that Paul, it's called biome audible. Maybe a long promo code, was very improbable codes, provocateurs, promo code, emmy, the power user, the internet, shirts or endeavoured store right now I have or mine is yet I don't know what the turnaround is on those I have also ordered mine. I ordered the basic one, the one that is actually like not like weird looking not arouse the wrong move. I ordered the like. I, we is okay, so if not familiar with the story mark Zuckerberg, in a q and with porters that I was on last week referred to himself as a power user of the internet, which is obviously true but legit, sort of like funny because of the understatement. And so

italy within the virtuous- and we have to make this a t shirt, and so we whipped up these four designs and put them to a vote on twitter and the most ec boring its version one is it doesn't unless it looks good, you're right, limiting about very talented artists made? It is that it is all about it. All. It just looks like sir. yes at me and what I love about. The version of the show that I bought is that it looks like a nineties, the age ass cosette about the internet like this those like over the top computer graphics live neon. Colors that's what I wanted to I bought it, but didn't you dont know and that's gonna come soon. I've got my tracking pixel great anyway. Hardware thing is that the only thing that spy, if I could be doing there, was a report earlier this week saying that they could be making changes to their free service

well honestly to me. If anything, they should use the music. I listen to you and serve me actually better added since I'm cheap and I won't pay for it and I'm okay with listening to an ad for, like a minute before it's not a big deal to me in any way. We need to have our. How did you decide not to get spot of you do pay for any music at all. Now Gimme music service super cheap music on five I for free or I'm gonna, tell you because, like I don't care, it's find. Advertising is a thing that I can ignore for half a minute and then move on to my light. My current life, it's fine, but I have to admit that bought. If I probably has the worse adds leg, they could probably learn from Google and these work and how to target adds better, because getting either the same ads or just ones. That completely are irrelevant, like I'll, listen to a rock solid and get an ad for a concert for like Aaron carter, and it just makes no sense,

If you don't understand it and like it, if anything, if they can do, if they are planning to revamp the free subscription tier better ads would be my request. Wow I just I pay for every single surfeits title. I don't pay for title. I don't. I have paid for every music service and I have whittled them down to spot a fire and to Google play music, which I frankly mostly pay for, because I get you to bread which is them under appreciated streaming surface. The heritage is but Redknapp, I I had it for like. We like, we bought a google home and it gave us like a free thing, and after that I was just like what about netflix. I don't pay for that, because they don't use netflix. This is amazing. I don't use netflix, they don't have

I pay a half fling that I have sling, that's good. I dont have cable tv, so that's when I read interests in very frugally are fascinating. Jealous what does your phones red, iphone? Eight? It is so read. It is way better than expected. I'm nothing else to say about it other than I read it. Is better, nonetheless, red iphone they made, which is thus a front, is actually black versus the last one. Whether It was white and we were like what the hell were. They thinking so yeah, and this is clearly a play on getting more you know, of their asian markets to buy it because ready the lucky color and people love red and people like to be unique and yeah. Also like charity right I mean there is that the lake, happily we love parity and then vlad reviewed the highway P. Twenty pro, I don't have one yet I'm expecting hopefully to get

next week. Are they illegal in this country? They are not like technically but kind. So I would want car one coming across the border. I'd say that the big question is is the burden of proof Why are the? U s government at this point, because U S, government has said no, no and everyone so like will shut why, unlike we're not gonna, there are studies years ago people looking into it. Always network equipment is used around the world there like a later in five, tack, and there is a concern, is really about spying, or is it about a concern that this privately held her cause? I privately held chinese. but that has connections to the chinese government. The chinese military frankly is to be trusted for security or simply because, if we let them have too much power, defining five g, they're gonna be

monopoly in five g, networking equipment and eriksson, and nor tell and wherever else will just fade away. I really want to be clear I'd for me, because, like here paul by whom, like Paul, you think that you think it's too far away to convince the? U S, government or anything. It's u s. Government too, like like a tell us what the problem is. I think the use government here is a thing if I Paul Miller, say dont by while I phones they by on you. They are a security risk. If I cannot prove that that is liable support for the government to say that in insinuate that without saying Actually why it feels like liable to me and like maybe, if it's true and then therefore like while I can't actually fight it, because it's actually true than that's one thing, but I asked you so weird also I liked the lads usage of the term. So

we're flagship. If they really nicely encapsulates this. This this you know new tear that we have of like the sort of the thousand dollar phone that is for which people yeah that's that's about right. It also has a notch which I'm done having feelings about notches. I just can't. I don't have the emotional energy to be angry or sad about notches in the night. Here's a here's! Why? Because, oh you know one but me as I'm not a hardware person, and I I felt that very acutely. As this debate was raging about the not and I got my phone as I ah, I think this It looks cool I was like well, I'm not telling any micro yeah myself that I've I've never had one negative emotion about the the nudge, the entire time. I've had my iphone ten, oh wow, I mean I had it in landscape. Annoy me. Sometimes that's about it. It's fine team ever I'd like here's the thing every time I consciously

im aware of it. I think either the thing that's like shooting lasers, at my face that lets me log into this felt like so I have this very positive association with it, which is like you enable a cool thing right. we'll all enables an android funds, is like a screen. That's eight percent bigger cause like there There are cameras and other stuff that they put inside the notch, aren't really that interesting or as interesting as what's on the iphone. So it's like sure it's a percent bigger, I don't care, are not as interesting is the iphone welcome to android have my feelings are actually is. I don't know it's it's very pro, the arrogant, fascinating, I'm meeting review in it and then we'll see, and then we'll see what happens you now having a while on walking around the streets in america. If I get tackled by

agent? Imagine if your technology is spying on you somehow can you both know they're going to do what you like and what you're enthusiastic about and who you're married to yeah. I mean I dunno like this, that this company is getting checked out by every intelligence service on the planet right like, If m six isn't freaking out and my five isn't freaking out and keeping a four or am I sayin, I its very confusing so I'm assuming its like it. It's a trade thing, we're afraid of their trade power were afraid of their like owning the five g standard, but lagging compared to walk on my guests. Compare dead you know like who cares eriksson out of anyway. It's it's very confusing, a very exciting to try it. I am. I am not on board recalling anything a super anything except for a hotel. Is that a super eight that one that I'm kind of god? Would you be comfortable, calling jessica jones, a superhero who I would

I am trying to watch season two right now and man it is just is a slog. It is bit of islam. The first season of jessica jones is maybe my favorite netflix anything ever s so season two. I came in with a lot of hopes about it. It doesn't cool things, blood and chaotic just yet all they do is punished make her sad. It is surely getting to be like the letter have a good nice day. They should just be an episode of just jones, the middle season two or she just goes get some ice cream. the whole episode which, without spending half an hour on, is the one thing that I will say that I think is actually a key to disease and is that both disease and alas, ease and are about the kinds of control that men have over women's bodies, and it is the fact that she is constantly oppressed and so are the women in her life. That is the actual like thematic point of this right and I think it's worth sitting with niagara okra fire, dear if your instant interested in watching superwomen, how a great day I suggest instagram stories. Basically it a lot of really superman

just haven't a great day by nice. We look up, I believe that its every week, if you go get my scream her about it is about doing segment, add a seven while you're eating your ice cream every week. It's always the same of the week. Just happened to be like come back or not. Poor little record resolution So there is a chance for a revolution joke there was a cause wreck records, revolve, it could have been recorded lucian revolution I'll shoot. You do you know what this way? changing the name. It's called red resolution revolution. Some.

Company is making hd records the call high definition vinyl. What are they didn't mean? It means that we have the technology. Basically, if you think of it, like almost like three d, print or or make a three thrifty imagination of a record and therefore mean that you can have louder volume, you can get longer play time. You can get like a more resolution in the audio, so they're they're working out a process to they created the the audio is first digitally converted to a threed. a graphic map, they'll lasers, and grave the map onto a stamper, which makes an impression in the vinyl. So it's just interest I'd like a hired resolution, higher fidelity like peaks and valleys. In that the thing that the needle reads right.

and this isn't the best tool like a traditional record, at least in the olden days how it was made. Is it's literally like it's like playing a record in reverse you have a mere thomas, edison yells into account and there's a needle at the end of it. In that vibrates income, indications in the wax or whenever I don't know so ways better records very excited? Is it ok. What do you want from me to answer meter all milos laws by segments I see these are making a come back again, I don't know is very confusing. I wanna talk of the web a little bit, which is, of course, because nila is gone, we're going to talk about the web paul, you just wrote a really nice article about what's going to happen with web apps. Maybe you want just chat about that briefly yeah. I I I pointed out, there's a bunch of interesting things and I didn't cover every hot new techno gee, but three of them that I pointed out were progresso web, which

I was eleven point three silently included support for progressive web apps I think it's they were silent about it, because apple has not really fully embraced the standard, but they are starting to embrace the standard, and it is a lot to explain what a progressive web app is. But the kind of the vision is that you can- go to a website and then you added to your home and out basically behaves like an app and at work. really well on android. It works really, progress on our is progressively loads, the rest of the web, app in the background when you visit the page, the first what an altar resolutely becomes a full app and all it also a progressive its can can be progressively enhanced right. Also part of the progressive had enough is very positive. it's very progressive person wearing a wearing an apron and AMOS flow. She delivers the app to you in a box.

other web thing. That happened is that we finally have another cromwell s tablet the hp, chrome book ex too. I don't know what he is impossible in the sense that a surface is a tablet yeah, but you can. Can use it without the keyboard and it looks like the keyboard actually bends and like a laptop yee kind of way. I'm really curious to see how that hinge works. I'm also released we to see when you is gonna get around to making tablet mode cromwell s, not crap, because I d visa pixel book all the time and it still pretty bad. Everything goes to full screen and there's no way to really deal with that. I we live this marvellous time where apple has created a beautiful mobile o s and Google has created a wonderful web browser, and you got to get on board.

I'd, take a pixelbook, and I want to take my ipad. I just sit on them and get both at once. Ok last last piece news unless you want to do a little lightning round. I think is all these leaks. Tom warring got some sort of sites got some of the other new version of gmail redesign that's coming speaking of web apps, I m excited. I tried using inbox for a long time and gave up and so for gmail to finally get proper. Real snoozing is actually really exciting for me. Yeah there also building in fireplace, which I think is really funny cause. Is there really going on this. My reply thing and just really into this calendar pain like this. There are basically doing I two tasking in gmail, where you have a second app where you have your. or counter whatever on the side bar, maybe

I mean when I go through my inbox, which had now do proximately once per week, I would say, like a third of the that actually require mire attention? The reason I have in mind them attention yet is I need to move some information from the email into the counter, and so there is a world in which, like the counter and the inbox should be the same thing and it's just about like moving inbox items onto your counter. So I'm sure it's taken gmail this long to try this, unlike, I am still kind of like sorting through these screenshots. I can't tell exactly how it's gonna work, but it's well worth a shot. I think it's not going to be what you're hoping for I'm sorry it's nothing ever. Is there alone hang out so still here like yeah? That's really takes me back How else is your mom's? Was the contact you while you were waiting when your mom it through how goes the really go to bet that clearly, fat man, casey

I like and one of my favorite things about my own mama's during the aol instant messenger days. She would write a message to me and then sign each message: mom, while as you sign individual job visitors, smell regrettable lessons me my mom doesn't type in english, so she communicated me using facebook messengers thick so too asked me whether I had lunch so them you figure of like a tick outbox. Ask me whether coming over the weekend show in person looking thank you reply. Wow apply. It. Ngos, review prowess dickens. I reply with words and she wore a fly back with about approximately fibres it's it's great, very efficient. I hope that, in addition to adding snoozing functionality to gmail that they put out an open source speck for email that klute the idea of snoozing that iterate on I'm apps such that. If you want to use a third party

well, client that also has snoozing. You don't have stupid ass, snooze folders in your gmail all the time that there's just like the idea of snoozing should just be built into the email, spec and everyone should just adopt it and if Google, likes it right here it is in her. Sobs can interact with it and then everybody else can use it to its final. It's free! Then we could just tat. We can all pick any act that we want to interact with their service and it would be great knows what I want. It's only the email speck was easier to consistently implemented across clients, ways out about a super easy to prevent its. map it's like there's. A million email client did Emily super hard to make an email client six hour minute. How many? How many I map clients, d, no of name name me. More than four, are you kidding like microsoft outlook? Outlooks

the sparrows coming there all gone now, they're all dead now, but a company like of memory email. At that time. I thought they were dead because I map was complicated, they're dead because they couldn't make any money because they all got bought by these other company, which I think like speak too, though, what what what strategy consent of those Google have to improve functionality and third party acts that it makes no money from so: just not evil casey. Maybe they are, but our sorrow, pallone, unicef. gonna. We missed this last week, but intel released core. I know processors error for laptops, like these are each series processors. This is like a huge speed, bump they're saying twenty nine percent overall speed boost forty one percent improvement for gaming. This is basically the best I'm ever in your life to by fifteen inch like high performance laptop, you can get up

a performance machine with jp you, any a portable form factor like with like, but for gigahertz processor, that's turbo boost is not always afford yogurt, but this is an exciting time to love us very specific kind of laptop. No, it's a really great last. Her offer intel chips. What- switch into their own ships with a couple years? those is running on arm now too, like no one wants to stick. No one wants to hang within tell nobody enjoys buying into products anymore, Tell products I have one of each one of their products. Have you ever go to over two cases: houses, Gallagher, wall who ran out, and he shares that those power user of intel products powers that alternatives

I don't know much, it tells the last hurrah. Is there amd partnership once we see some of those products like as like laptops like with built in gps, you'll have like a a new size of laptop that can have a tolerable, jeep you and that will be on intel arm takes over the whole world yeah. That, I think, is the end of the verge cast. I want to thank casey for coming on. Wonderful to be here thanks for having me, I want to thank you for coming on glad to be here or thank Paul. All for being here thinks mediator. He hath you could follow on twitter backlog cases casing it matters not underscored in not just that airlines pulse future posts. We are verge on twitter, also virgin instagram. You should also listen to other podcast. I highly recommend season to why you pushed up button. The last upset that I

and two was about restaurant reviews and I quite enjoyed it. Others also podcast for rico's, there's rico dakota switcher she's got the full interview of her msnbc interviewed TIM cook recently, which really good results Record media with peter kafka and are you should go to apple, podcast and rate and review us cause that's helpful and we need your help because Neil is not here and this ship has gone down real fast if we don't figured out so give us. He was good review and we should also mention that our good friend dieter has a new shell, god dilute yea called processing earth. It exists and I watched the first up certain. It was fantastic dinner. What would you tell our audience about processor? would tell you that our trying airum on wednesdays, although this coming week, I think we're gonna, have a bonus episode, which I'm pretty excited about. And I'm trying to talk about tat, but also at a little human empathy and kindness to it, which it always like obvious, I'm not gonna like and every episode by saying as to each other's isn't, like MR rogers does gadgets, but to like do a little.

actual, like thinking analysis about tech instead of just hands ants even it will devolved just hands on, but until that happens, when I ran out of ideas there's can we simply cool stuff? I hope, and the first episode is really good well, just wanted to say the first episode was very thoughtful. That's all I wanted to say it's all too much attention Rock'N'Roll. What is that? That's? It does yeah. That was it. No. I can't go on like we're so bad at this goodbye. Everybody Paul rock n roll promo code. This up votes cast that you just listen to was brought to you by ibm in the car.

Listening to that podcast, nearly ten thousand new malware variants have launched, but ai can protect you and your data from threats wherever it lives. With I b m security put smart to work, learn more at I b m dot com, slash smart.