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Welcome to the verge cast the flagship podcast of the cassettes that you lost underneath the seat of your first car. I'm your friend David Pearce, and this is the beginning of a new series. So for the next three mondays we're going to be bringing you different stories about the future of music. It's kind of exactly what it sounds like we're gonna, try to figure out what the future of music is, but we have a bunch of different ideas about what that might look like our first episode this week comes from. Burgess managing editor Alex grants. High alex hello, deed, head boy, episode about I areas. I know almost nothing about with this episode is about you just like disappeared and made podcast it's about the future of music. Ok, get that's perfect, We were looking into like, but the old music what's happening with old music as it felt like we are seeing a lot like remixes samples and interpretations and stuff and, as we thought about a more we like wait, a minute. The seems like the future music might be more related to like the back catalogue of music

the old stuff they mean it is kind of true you listen to music now, and it's like every part of songs now is actually like the drum line from a song from the nineteen. Fifty is yes so we wanted to figure out his dislike. Just a thing is just randomly happening. What's going on Is this on purpose, our music executives? And yes, I need more of the song for that item. Fifty is as a base line in this elastic sunk. So that's what we did. We went and we spoke with Charlie Harding, who is a music journalists, he's a songwriter and he also co host the podcast switched on pop one of my fears outcasts, it's so get so. He felt like the perfect person to talk to about this and thought of him ass, a ticking away with god

hey, so I have charlie here Charlie. You are like a music expert, especially compared to me, but I think probably compared to most people. Is that accurate? Can I say that about you. I report on music. Yeah yeah, I feel like that's like music, is an infinitely large vocabulary with many languages that one must learn, and so I know a few of them. Do you know pop music that I know com is pretty well well, sir, we're gonna talk about a couple of different trends that are happening here, music and I'm curious or whether this is an indication of the future of music. So the first one I want to talk about was this article. I read vulture, selena quintanilla will sound older on her new posthumous, album sincerely died in nineteen ninety five and they're, using recordings when she was like thirteen to sixteen years old and their tuning her voice. to make her quote sound like she stepped out of the booth at twenty three years old,

then said he at three staple retains too. So he thought make ends meet. This is a obviously very particular and tragic case of the need to revive a voice but all have been manipulating vocals since the beginning of recorded music- and, I think is important context- relies vocal manipulation and changes as a very age old thing. If you even think about the era of the crew nurse sinatra fuel I did it. A big part of their technological advancement was microphone technique. It was getting up real close on the microphone and getting them keep base when behind you, you have the support of an orchestra. Now, that's an auditory allusion, it's impossible to

sing too in entire arena of people with an orchestra. And your singing, if you dont, have a microphone, you'd have to be belting to be heard, and so that is an early example of how people saying even Billie holiday, that sort of whiny vocal. That you know yeah, one of the reason why she had this very constrained, vocal, sound but is now iconic was that she We needed to make short and not make the needle jump as it was reporting, if or to many fluctuations in the voice. The needle could skip and ruin the recording and so part of the vocal because actually determined by the technological requirements of but holidays are in every bob music, vocal manipulation. very commonplace now, every major pop star minus

or to uses some amount of vocal tuning to clean up, sometimes just knew a small error. Sometimes there's auto tune through an entire vocal performance that extremely common and for greater effect. I think miley cyrus's. We can't stop where you hear this really low, manipulated vocal. That was taken from the world. Of trumpets, brood, music or billy eyelashes bad guy. Has this low, vocal, warlike and the bad guy even Connie, S entire early catalogue of chipmunk soul, music is predicated on taking samples and pitching them weigh up. So they sound like there in a different way. You don't know what you're talking about here is potentially a little bit different right, because it's about trying to perfect The voice changed the age. Certainly, I've done this

that hard I've taken my three year olds voice and recorded at and then put it through vocal processing to get a sense of weapon? But but you sound like when he's twelve years old, all you have to do is just change the pitch and setting cult format, which is kind of a Where you place the vowels in your voice that can make an old voice. Sound young or young voice on old can change the perceptions of john or in the ways that gender stereotyping we perceived in the voice, these things are all actually fairly easy to manipulate, and so I am not surprised that this is a way that clean as a state may want to update her music. It a very achievable thing to do. People look to change clean up uptake voices. All the time is a kind of like I think, racine manner, with nirvana and some of these older.

Bans they go and they find like oh yeah. They did these garage session recordings and now we're gonna, clean them up and make them sound. A little more studio is kind of that same thing. Just finding these old, almost lost quote unquote: tracks, unjust, updating them through connected. There are slightly different processes like when you're trying to clean up bad recordings, a lot of what need to be done is removing his sin crackle and trying to separate the instruments in a way where you can actually really mix them with modern mixing techniques, but part of that will certainly be heinous, vocal, wasn't recorded very well. How can we get the most out of it and using techniques of cleaning rules and plugins that will nicely q income. I and do all kinds of things. The voice to make it the best anti performance possible it very common. The reality, though, is that technology come a long way at recovering bad audio, but every mix engineers gonna tell you, don't fix it in the mix get good the first time you

this. As someone who make a podcast someone delivers you bad audio. It takes ten times as long to deal with their audio, so a lot can be done at its very hard work. Have we heard of other artists? during the determining method, like insulators case This is a somewhat unique case. I'm sure there could be other examples out there, but part of what we're talking about is the uncanny valley of relating to the human voice. You know humans are, immensely tuned into the voice. In fact, our ears are a cued to hear the human voice over other sounds makes sense, because we want to be aware of when our parents call for us when there's danger, and so we are very good at hearing when voices down sound right it. Why some people don't like this? of otto tune, it doesn't sound natural. I think that when you're updating of vocal, getting an old recording that has recorded poorly at a different age to sound contemporary

and totally natural is very challenging, even if it's done properly could create. fan? Confusion? I think, especially for living artists. If there to release recording of their younger self. I think it would be more likely that they would actually just make it sound like their younger self and nick sit, so that before more in tune fits in the mixed. Well, but you're talking about not just technology. Also aesthetics and people's expectations and culture. There's a lot of reasons why people might not want to hear that recording the computer, and I was thinking a lot about like Michael jackson after he passed away sony music released this whole new like album, and there were a couple of songs on it. That people were like this isn't michael.

Doesn't sound like him. I think this is an impersonator piece bill. Jackson, jackson, one fan actually in two thousand and fourteen sued sony music, because she was like it's not him. The sony actually had to pull the songs from streaming services this year to avoid further controversy. Pop music is deeply predicated on a performance of authenticity. People want to believe that the perform, or is performing their identity and their life, and that a listener can have this pair social relationship with that person impotent. We see their own life in that music and for that performance of authenticity to work. You have to believe and the thing, and so in any place where some and is using impersonators and ghost writers fans frequently become very suspect of those kind of tat.

Meeks fans have worn critique of the idea of board rooms participating in the songwriting process, things being overly commercial, there's a reasons why we should challenge some of them. assumptions yeah because it's their age old. There is reason to be that fact should be suspect of how is tat ology, potentially monopoly eating my relationship to that artist, that I love technology or potential fake recreation if you're going to recreate a song that I of release, a new song from someone who has died like either like hey, we're getting someone else. Who is awesome? He really love to perform in the style of that person to be very clear about it or give me recording that is mixed in a strange way, one of them earliest examples of what you're talking about. In fact that I can recall was the beatles win. they put out their anthologies found songs that John Lennon had recorded

and the three remaining surviving members of the band at that time, put out the song real love and free as a bird and those were kind of like the beatles final true recordings of the four of them by taking tape of John lennon, had been left on the floor writing new versus for Paul to sing in between and It sound like they were a band again and that works because that I think passes the authenticity test if the intent part of that, like the intent of the artist, is part of that that desire from and the artist's intent is always something that people are questioning about, isn't state managing the artists in a way that they intended a great example would be the prince estate. Your prince was aspect of streaming

limiting the amount that his songs were available on streaming services, but his estate has made his musical one spotify, and so there is reasonable and might want to question whether or not there is a thing that he would have done and may want to participate in his music in a way That would be closer to his intent. It is always a part of the conversation. Also jason to this is a I voices. Like receive that happen, a lot in films and stuff like that. Where, though, recreate the voices is that happening in music, where people are like, I'm gonna recreate judy garland like? Are they doing that recreating these, and is that, like viable future for music. This is happening is a fairly nascent area of AI research. I'm sure people have been working at for a couple of years, but I don't know of at this point publicly available tools where you

I like manipulate someone else's all vocal, but I know that there are firms that are doing this, that our successfully recreating voices off of training sets of that singer that sound reasonable at this point and could be used for future work sittings, and there are reasons why people may want to use those air recordings. A great example might be hey, finished, a track and you're really busy pop star and all the sudden you're not available, but you missed one backing no, and we want to recreate that backing. Note, there's a bunch of different You could do that today, but why? Don't you just like an I have the ai sing it for you. I could see lots of applications why people might use these tools in the future, but use using more tools, not necessarily is like the centerpiece of an album

no, of course not, and you may ask someone's going to do it because, first of all, someone's gonna do it as an art project, because it's interesting are people love making a. I r is like the conversation that is happening right now, so someone's gonna make it our full vocal album at some point in which nobody saying it. Nobody road, the lyrics, like that's gonna, happen for sure. There's a lot of precedent for bans continuing on past the just the availability of their lead, singer, whether they ve got the group, whether their deceased, I can think of my queen Helen genesis, the playful dead, nirvana zapper. They have all continue to perform with other mead singers, maybe for example, is one of the really interesting cases. His son diesels upper has a project where he performs his father's musics apple without zapper. There are cases where phantoms wants to continue to engage in the our work in the music of their favourite ban

as long as that, phantom is around there's, probably a marketplace for this kind of reach creation of a voice, but it's gonna have to pass through the lens of culture. Through these authenticity tests. Do people want to hear this, and so will it be used absolutely how it We use, I think it's gonna be determined by, whereas the cold, rat are we willing and wanting to hear me something new material with all voices we'll see. I think we might deftly here, maybe like real it is an updated lyrics and things that are like mash up some kind of more in the. He dm hip hop remix culture. That feels like a very ripe place for ai voices from deceased artists. It's funny you bring up remixes because we are actually going to talk about that, but first we're going to take it to a break.

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ok and we're back during the brake, Charlie it has a very cool ay. I remix story when a share one of them this challenges in re, mixing muse, is, do you actually have the original music available? There is a famous fire burned down at heart of masters in the world of popular music. One ban included was the ban green dot. They watched their masters, and so they they wanted to do remixes mash up their music and new and original ways, but they only have the finished final products. You can't change the voice. You can't take a guitar out until they partnered up with a company called audio shake who can you a eyes stemming where they can actually use it to remove and separate the qatar as the base, the drums, the vocals background instruments and create them as separate track so that you can do new things with them

and green day, did that and released from their songs on tik tok, where they actually just completely removed the guitar so that People could play guitar with it any sort of guitar hero. Accept competition of your dreams if you're fat, and so I think the you're gonna see eye towards using me used for all kinds of creative purposes for fan, engage man and for putting me music in new contexts that you couldn't do in any other way, and I think that, like those remixes seemed to be one of those things, that's really taking off and have to talk, we talk a lot about on the verge cast tick. Tock is kind of this big engine for for music right now. It's it's driving music in a way, maybe more so than spotify. Even is that just like a fad? Is that weird, because everybody's got tick tock and the fancy new tools, or is this just

it's like kind of a new future we're just going to be getting more and more remixes remix culture, and especially the use of interpolations, is, at an all time, high we're seeing more new music mashed up with older music than we have in the last decade. I've done some reporting that shows that interpolations have, in fact a double, in the last five years on billboards year and hot one hundred you asked me is this here to stay. I think all of culture is a fad rate at some point we're all gonna be wearing moon boots. Again, I'm so excited, and so at some point, remixes are not going to be cool, but is this here for a minute for sure, because tik tok is the biggest most important social network at the moment, and it's gonna how staying power? For how long I dont know cycles of power and staying power within social media seemed to be increasing in time so I think it's gonna be around for a minute. I just if you asked me what's happening in fifty years now: cosette

you'll, be wearing moon boots on the moon and me looking gray, making music in ways. I can't even imagine thank you. Will you do about interpretations. How is that different, then remixes, like? How do we define those to shore? If you want to use someone else's song, there are roughly three things that you can do, what you can make a cover of us all and which is basically we're doing all of the melody and the lyrics with may be slight variation, but sting really close to the original. You could sample asylum where you actually take the original recording and you put it into a new sullen and you change the context so you're not singing the same lyric throughout the entire thing, but you're using the actual recording itself. The last thing you can do as you can interpret a song, which is that you're going to borrow a musical element from another sullen. It could be a melody, it could be a lyric. It could be a big part of divide and production and you're going to update it into a new song, and so this has become

extremely popular recently jungle If he has a song called betty, get money I haven't tried this, which interpolates rick astley is never going to give it up the which is great, because if you play that then I've just rick rolled all of your listeners, just lotto is a great example. Her song big energy, one of the most, all of us for years uses both a sample of the Tom Tom club and internally. Maria carries fantasy, which had used the same sample but because watto use is some of my carries. Lyric she's interpolating by carries version of the Tom Tom club to be kind to tell you that pay day. That's a very popular interrelation. There's a new

Preparation of the song blew about the other day that David gotta has There is even a song by Rita Ora, which interpolates the beverly hills, cop it's a very common thing right now that people are taking all hits, there are still in the cultural memory still interesting, but maybe have faded just a little bit and an updating them and bringing them back because, frankly, there is no better. Then a song? It's already hoped you before. So people like to update them. It's kind of like the hollywood strategy of rebuilding everything, and it all has to do with the costs of marketing marketing. A new film is extremely expensive. People want us, go see things that are familiar and it's easier to market, something that is already in the popular consciousness in so doing the same,

is true of music. There is more competition in music today than there ever has been before. The number of songs release daily a few years ago was sixty thousand songs on spotify, and so I don't even know what the number is updated to today, but you have so much competition when you're putting a song out, so it may be. If it connects to another major head, it you have a better chance of being remembered. Are the steward I was doing this intentionally. Is this just the art ass being like? I want people to listen, my song, which I told the get, whereas the deadly can derive coming from to do this. I take it my directional. Clearly listeners like this music, because its performing very well on billboard people are choosing to go and listen to it. Radio tv are continuing to play this music, it's working At the same time, music, publishers, music publishers of people that own the song writing credit, which is the part that gets interrelated musa. Publishers are actively pitching the idea of interpretations two major artists to continue, though life time.

the value of their catalogue of music, so s recently with hypnosis sounds and primary wave to of the biggest financially back music publishers. These are the people who are buying up old catalogues like paying cement hundreds of millions of dollars for all catalogues, they believe It's a stable financial asset because they can predict streaming revenue off of the songs for a number of years and they think they're gonna make money back off event and they're also trying to find new markets and new life for that music. They're doing it through biopics they're, doing through docks they're, getting people to cover those songs, all which will increase the value of that catalogue, but there also actively pitching interrelations they they really go through their list of songs, make less sometimes even produce ideas for songs that then too in two hits thicket played on the radio because, through the label sesame, well the pitch those ideas they get into a major artists and they get we made when my favorite examples of this kind of thing,

winning was the song higher love. Not talk about c Steve Winwood, I'm talking about cargo, taking a bonus track from the houston covering that song and an updating it with contemporary production. This is one of those cases where ever music catalogue company helped facilitate dead. revive all of this body of work and I think it's an amazing song. I love the new version so these these studios, who are buying all of this catalogues because they want this predictable revenue because, like I guess, music, like forms of entertainment is not predictable in its revenue. Is this kind of a newer thing in music? Have they been doing this a wild? This predictability play?

Certainly, streaming has changed how publishers perceive the lifetime value of their work music catalogues have always been valuable, and people have made a lot of money. Of legacy, artists and owning that publishing. That's not new. There is an apocryphal story about Paul mccartney, telling Michael Jackson, hey it's a really good idea to own publishing like there's a lot of value in it than Michael jack and went behind his back and bought the beatles cattle that not so happy about that. So there's has been value in what has changed as that streaming provides more predictable revenues. You can see how you revenues are changing literally day by day and It was, you would have had to rely on physical retailers and, of course, what, if you have a legacy catalogue, maintaining shall space and a physical location is more challenging when so much new music is being released on streaming, fan

is, are able to continue listening, fewer boomer and you love boomer music, you're gonna people. that on spotify behaviour from them it just generated, and you really love listening to the old classics of pop music. You probably couldn't find them at best buy today, That's your thing: you can find playlists. You can find the music be engaged with it on streaming in a way that price and predictability now, and so it's not hard to build our financial forecasts of this is how much money this artist is making over streaming year over year. Is it growing as a declining, and you can predict what those the revenues might be, which is all predicated on listener? Behavior is going to be the same in the future as it is today, and we don't know about that, but you've got these companies who are going there buying this music and they're saying ok. I know I can predict this I also do I can get somebody to go down and trepidation. I can go, have a whole bunch of what slow it down so too looked sound. Rate on a movie trailer to know just how dramatic it is if you wanna, be class and think about music,

as a marketplace listeners have to want this kind of music in the sixtys, the worse, the uk possibly do with a sell out and work with a brand, and I would like, if you're, not working with a brand you're, not a real artist, so idea is around this in culture or gonna change. But listeners are definitely tuning in This music. In its working in an- and so I think you see the supply so this music, recognising ok, we to figure out how to supply more this and do it well all over the what was I have spoken with work very hard, hard to maintain high quality. Now that obviously, is extremely subjective, but they're, just letting their cattle. I got there. Willy nilly, ching hegel cover the solemn, do whatever you want with it they're trying to connect old songs. new artist, where there is a really strong resident connection, fans are gonna love, they are getting approvals, on the songs, the usage is, etc.

set her up in hypnosis sounds, for example, told me over email that they usually tell the artist who did the recording originally that this is going to happen, even when they dont need to, because a lot of these deals are like poetry, just own all of it, so they don't need to get the artist permission and cases they do, but they do so anyway, because you don't want to mess with these legacies right if you're going to use all thy p, don't mess it up because it actually gonna, potentially the entire value of the overall catalog. So I think people are trying to do this intelligently and do it in a way that builds value rather than dilutes it. So the publisher, pitching part of it is definitely important, but I think it's just one part

the marketplace of how we are listening to old hits in new ways. Is there an end date for this kind of business model where they they buy the catalogs they put them on streaming, and then they work with a lot of artists and stuff to do remixes to do interpolations. Is there an end date to that of a point where, like there, just aren't any more artists Who can do they songs? There aren't any more artists. Recombine catalogues from pop is always turning. Firstly, there are always be many who acts coming along, but there are a couple of end dates: one you have to have a phantom, not a lot of people, we're currently buying, say John philip sousa music, who was one of the biggest pop stars of the nineteenth century, it's just me they'll, real, ok, that's awesome! I mean if people so pursues a phone, that's awesome, but like a quorum, from that era is not very popular. Today we might marching bands etc, but generally that's not driving pop music. You also have

copyright expiration. So at some point all work will enter the public domain. That is a long period of time. Many generations and I think, you're gonna, see a lot of music is pursuing disney's strategy, which is maintaining the at the time of your intellectual property and trying to constantly reignite it so that the fandom. For that thing, rose and at least sustains, and going business for each. these many artist brands and when all else fails, they will go petition the government to make sure they can hold mickey mouse forever. Giving will see the music It was during that as well in the music community. There's probably a mixture of what people want. Some people want like. Let me sample anything. I want to pay. Certainly, the people who own the intellectual property are working to maintain the lifetime value of that in the longest possible way that they can, and so certainly I know for a fact that or labels that don't want to believe in, for example, fair use, because they would prefer that in every

case: people pay for any instance of recognising that music, which why we see an increase in music docks that are actually like owned and operated why the artist those are not docks. Those head is art is propaganda. They can be followed. You should walk them enjoyed than a toy fine, but that's not a documentary, but so many music box it air sold as a dark when actually it is like someone with complete we have control about how they are being represented a kind of music trend that you're seeing right now that you think that's the one. That's the future of music is a lot of these. We ve talked about you're. Like you know what this is can be part of the future. This isn't a fabric of the future of music there. Any that's like just stand out tito, I'm not gonna put. My work will have for very specific reason, which is that I think music is one of the fastest moving media format that the culture around music, the walls so quickly, every time

want to say all pop music sounds the same. It's like just listen to a pop music sound like five years ago, doesn't not sound the same. It updates and changes it's very chameleon nick. I can't tell you the combination of how pop music is gonna sound house can be created how technology is going to inform it, because I think it's gonna shift. every single year. Even when we get to the point where ai is going to perfectly recreate a song. If and when that happens, meet new interesting music humans are still going to participate in music and wild and creative ways that I can't even possibly imagine it's all going to happen so fast that I just would feel irresponsible to pin wait like this is the thing that's going to be around for the next hundred years. I mean again, I love the sousaphone, but it's got a very particular place at one point was very, very popular. You know it's like it's just all going to change all of these interpretations. All of these remixes are we just kind of I don't know if it's doomed is the right word, there they are absolute bob's, but our

Are we gonna just be in this loop? This endless loop of recall, we they seem to be living in the greatest era of nostalgia, and that is reflected, I think, in all of our media Two curly is true and popular music turkle, We are on the rise. It seems like every year there's a new throwback to a previous generation. We are very much into the eighties and disco right now. One of the biggest alms, alas, couple years was duly buzz, future nostalgia and it is an update. Ten. The discos out We are, I think, in a mist elderly maintain that I think the ideas around pop culture? What's going to be injured, will change and that at some point, nostalgia will be frowned upon, but we are in it for a minute, there's, no doubt

that I think every musicians secretly hopes for the moment were actually what's gonna happen. Is we're going to go to the most? on guard weird thing: that's ever been created and near. We lean on artists, like bark and other folks to to help push those sort of boundaries and help change our understanding of what music can sound like. It's always gonna be a push in a book. I love it. I love Thank you, your so much for taking the time to talk to us and educate me about music and all the artist that I've never heard of until today give cutting, all right, that's it for the verge cast. Today, for listening? You can find charlie's podcast switched on pop anywhere. You get. Podcast misses the first episode or a future music series, which would be every monday for the next. three weeks. In the meantime, you should check out, diverged dot com. It's got a new look, of cool articles and were here time about the future of everything including music. The show is

is by andrew marino and Liam James Murray Donovan, as our executive producer and brook mentors is our editorial director of audio the verge cast as avert production in part of the vocs media podcast network. The thoughts back feelings, mix tape. You can always email verge cast at the verge dot com or didn't call us on our verge cast hotline at eight six, six, Virgil, one day we will be back on wednesday to talk about tik, tok search, your iphone fourteen questions and a whole lot more see it s practical support for this podcast comes from robo rock. You might not realise this, but automatic backing clean. are driving the future of cleaning in the ass eight pro ultra from will rock is among the best in its class, its bell to detect and avoid objects, vacuum mob and more plus, with its upgrading ultra doc, as eight pro old track and empty.

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