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eating and how they deal with living in perpetual uncertainty as we all do, some make sure you follow, haven't ice future, wherever you get your part guests, the hello and welcome to our chest flagship podcast of impulse buying things you shouldn't have bought, I just bought. that's a real thing that happened on the shape and we'll talk about it when it I am just going to be. I I'm your friend hi, I'm just going to be honest with you. We thought we had today to prepare for this emergency elon by twitter. We thought it was gonna happen at like for twenty p m today at nice and see you. If he could have bought two hundred. Sixty nine o clock you. What about sixty nine. So,

We thought we had like a data prepping, but we didn't, because in classic yon fashion he appears to have a it. Like ten p m last and then he fired all the executives I wanted the halls. I don't know, I don't know man you want so we're doing this. It's early we're just gonna get through it. I just got an email saying my recent article socks that article is entitled welcome. The hell on russia, And their implications, this is how unprepared we are. I know limitations are salon. I'm here, I'm Eli david's here I outlined here I am your friend who also impulse bought something this week, but it was a fruit bowl. So it's fine unless the potter's here in writing this. We can anyone and she just very happily said my part of the story- is over welcome. Hey thanks for having me. I got about three hours of sleep last night. So, let's see how coherent I am it's a lot. I mean we really did think that he was going to do it at like four twenty pm.

the amount of confidence I had in that outcome, with very the thing that this power, This is mainly rise like I've really is this a hundred different? but even this like last bit, has made me rice is There's just no rules to anything like you think, there's like a thing supposed to happen where, like a like, a person with authority says like You now own twitter, it's like the the like, Michael Scott. I declare bankruptcy rate and it's just like putting instead, instead, it just like happens, there is just a minute we're like eleven. carbon sink and then it was it imports riches so I am pretty sure an interview. If you ever brought anything march right, you actually show up to a ceremony by giving a feud by if you buy a house years ago to a lawyer's office and then there's like lots of renders there and then you have to sign. Nine thousand document is key,

somebody's their entire worries. You have an entire business just having these meetings, where you close the house and you leave and you're holding keys the house and you're like crap. I hope I bought the right house right like yet that's the thing we buy a car years. Like Stuff, there's a bank involved, I'm pretty sure you on had that moment yesterday. He just did it with a sink that he had brought, The meat is a goal that, after him saying that he walked twitter was to post a meme where you got to say let that sink in, which is a very funny like I loved it. He's, so he did that he brought the sinking on Wednesday. He were, but I do have a question. he bring that sink in go straight into prague's office drop in on the table. Say tomorrow, you're fired you so this link was on Wednesday. I think left to sink a twitter, I don't know you took the sink back up its, I think, cinctures ominously sat in the executive twitter the man he had

is closing meeting where he and his lawyers showed up yesterday. Twitter executives in board were there because they have to sign the documents turning all the stuff. The eu on and then when that was done, he just looked at them all and said most of you are fired because the first report, if you recall the first report I was David favorite CNBC said twitter, Cnc ever have left the building and they are not expected to return, which is in ink credible, like you just think about what that he fired them. After afraid, sign the deal, diesel you're gone and then he fired did ya gotta, whose had a policy which is a big decision. We talk about- and I thank you. the general council general consummate away, who led the legal team. The defeat in EU on mosque. maybe home by twitter, which she doesn't even try to get out of this report. I want to start with the general answer was escorted out by security like there were a couple of people where it was they weren't just like fire.

They were fired and humiliating fashion, so sean edge. It is the general council and Bloomberg, says: security, assorted him out, parag agro, all the former ceo, an egg siegel, who was that the financial officer were also escorted out by security. According to writers, like can you imagine, like you've, just done a deal with elon musk you've signed the thing and then two burly security guards like strong arm you out of the building, I mean I can Absolutely imagine that in this context, I'm guessing if I'm prerogatives, That's like the least bad thing I thought might happen to me when all of this went out like that dude, it's gotta have last six months, wondering what horrible thing beyond was going to do to him when they still closed well, use, giving a nice pass. All he's, gonna pay him thirty million dollars, while their staff. Racism is executives at huge pats saga this? If you want to give me thirty million dollars and escort me out of the building you picked this another onto it

yeah, each time you build a new show I'll bet I'll be escorted in the building out of the building. As long as there's a check you usually let me know you hear that elon, yeah. I wanted to start there right there's. This has been a long and winding emanate journey and I think the he escorted, the general counsel twitter out of the building by security is revenge because he got owned in this process like she bought it. For the number he said he was going to buy it to the to the dime, can't even get a discount. After all this now I actually would have kept that lawyer because he is a nightmare. I I like full respect to all of the legal teams, but twitter

legal team in particular, was quite good, and you may remember that they were the outside team was brought on and they were like the inventors of the poison pill, which is a deal provision that that prevents, prevents hostile takeovers that twitter implemented before the agreement to buy twitter happened and then Elan cancelled. The deal cancel the deals more and and and then we all we're like. Oh, I guess we're going to court and then we didn't go to court. So This was a really really good agreement that was negotiated like this was a really strong agreement and, like I think we ve talked about this before, but I was of the opinion that elon musk was lose a trial and it looks like you. I must was also of the opinion that elon musk was going to lose a trial, and so here we all are you on mosques, twitter, dot, com or acquitting you? I twitter dot com specifically because of all these shenanigans, yeah, I mean that's, no one's gonna quit so here's what I've! First of all I quit smoking was cold turkey, while studying for the asset.

My faith that I can quit anything is very high. It wasn't easy and I blew bubbles I like to like kids bubbles and I blew them outside of the law school in between. Class brics so using ahead, but I'm willing to do you can, if you find the bubbles equivalent of twitter I'll, quit twitter it still there We should see what happens to it. I just think a lot of people are going to stop using I think a lot of people are going to stop using it the way they have been using it. There is report in reuters last week that twitter is already seeing a massive decline, in quote heavy twitters in a kind of I don't know why, but the answers are obvious. It's that twitter is it inhospitable place yeah. I mean like the thing about that report is that the decline started well before elon musk great, like it starts during the pandemic, and I think Brian broader it had the best explanation. He writes newsletter coke courage day and I've just been thinking about this over and over. We're like twitter is a play.

For the users, all hate each other and also the product itself. Here. I'd like that's twitter is just like we're all here and hell and lake you turn up the heat. A little more on health where he believe yeah, and this is, I think, the fundamental problem for EU on this is what I promised outer at this peace work in the home. On this issue as on the us, and then I was just say just run, but the problem for him is it to make any money at all. He actually can't do the things that he's promised his ardent fans that he would do so if you want to make money- and you don't just wanted- have ads for supplement- Unlike racist pillows, you have to promise advertisers brand safety right. You have to say if your ads are going to go in a place. That is that won't make your brand look bad taco bell like it is just the it's the basic. If you just read about internet advertising, they are always constantly talking about brand safety.

the thing in so twitter regal problem with that, as in general, it is somewhat managed to I'd ways to overcome it, but the smallest of the social networks, because it is inhospitable, it does not make you feel good to use. like fewer new twitter user. You Our desire to tweet is pretty low because the things that will happen to you after you tweet, are mostly negative right, like botz with china, If you crypto or some rando, will pop up and talk shit to you like those or that or no one or nothing will happen, which is actually the worst outcome for us. I would like if you're china, incentivize content creation, because social network without lots of people working for free is a bad idea. so you're you trying to get people to work for free in if the thing

wins most often is nothing cook. No one pays attention to you, but that's bad. If it's bots trying to say crypto, that's bad, maybe you can solve that problem and he's focused on it or it's at her asked the all. This is bad, but none of these are that. This is why the only people tweet or like hopelessly dated nine people- Well, this is why you see you, unlike talking out of both sides of his mouth throughout this whole process. On the one hand, he's he's talking to people about. You know scaling down content moderation and bring me back donald trump and an open source in the algorithm them broken. How that means- and this idea like it should be a free or plays the follows the laws and then he's sitting with advertiser, saying no, no, it still gonna be fine. I walked like free for all hell escape is the phrase that he used there, I think, is going to hunt him for a long time, because it is now very stuck in my brain and lake end and so he's trying to do a thing that everyone has proved over and over is impossible, which is too late. Chaos reign in an advertising friendly way and, like you, just can't do that right.

so that is probably he'll on does not like being told what to do with, as I felt that it was the shaking her. I feel that's a safe statement. You unless does not like being told what to do when you own a social network. All kinds of people get to, tell you what to do so, the four say we need brand safety needs a moderate away, the racism, sexism transport, we all the bad stuff so that we can sell more shoes. That's just the basics of the thing they want their ads near stuff. That's nice! Then he incentivize people to make his things, which is hard slick like heart, like youtube, can't do it maybe the most successful of these companies right. We don't think of it as a social networking that way, but you to get like most kids in america, what me youtube or on a girl like now, she is clear the incentive structure where people want to show up in may

nice things for other people on youtube and advertisers want to pour money into that, and that's fine great youtube has moderation problems every single day at the scale that you cannot possibly imagine. That's just the base It's like you need people to show up. You need to get my from advertisers. Advertisers want nice things. Now you to listen to africa. which is why you, I must wrote an open letter and twitter promising advertising was gonna, be fine because he can't kill his revenue right away. Then there are governments around the world which love passing speech, regulations, love. It can't get enough of it. teams seems become a politician. The first thing you want to do is tell people what they can say. This is true in our country so in texas. In Florida there is social media laws are effectively impossible to comply with, because a ban. any moderation that is quote based on viewpoint, without really defining it. That's going to this, import units at hearsay, ominous support to scientists for president unease

massively invested in texas and he's got a fight them, governments, those governors, Is their laws he's gonna go tell the supreme court, these are and constitution. That's just like that. That's a tightrope here. Watch. Does he have to tell them that lake I think we are? assuming that he is going to run this company like every other social media network and that he is going to incentivize advertisers like every their social media network, and I just something that is really the advertiser assumption, because he just tell him if he fired the person who does advertising twitter like me, genuinely do not, I think, we're in whole new space with him, because he is the just man in the world, and he has shown again and again and again he can do any, wants and I so yes, I agree with you

flex, one hundred per cent, I think we were in for like a big reign of chaos. You all know how I feel I feel that very much, but I'm just thinking about, like all of the moderation problems at every larger company, has had right and like I'm not even like for like leave aside like the most nasty part of it like politics like live stream, shootings. All of those things like leave aside, the nastiest parts of moderation like if you think about Google, for instance, their text snippets have at times told users that snoopy assassinated abraham, lincoln and facebook. They actually lost a piece of their moderation policy for three years. So, in addition to like the big stuff, there are all these little things that can also go wrong, but on top of that, This is the cherry on top. For me, working with people is not like engineer here, because building a community is really different from building a rocket cause rockets. Don't talk back yet this simple

explain that in that way, they're a lot like twitter yeah. No, I'm going to agree with you. I mean this is to me that we see this repeated over and over again right people approach these community problems like engineering problems, and they the things I'll give you I'll, give you a totally unrelated example, but it's the same example, because it's the same approach, you talk to self driving car ceos How are you going to build the cars who's going to read the rules like the rules already written down? It's just the rules of the road and succeed. You think you can just ingested the state dmv into your robot car and then it's going to be fine and it turns out like cars, are totally unpredictable like this is now It may be. Other people in cars tend to make decisions that have nothing to do with it. What the dmz things you should do in their stock because they thought there is a list of rules that can just follow, and you can apply that exact same thinking to you on his tweeted this. If people What this speech to be legal people want to ban

We should in right along. He said this situation. I take the first amendment in blue industry. May I that will run moderation for us against the principles of the first amendment. The problem is that seeing the first international does. Is it prevents the people of amerika for me a law that ban some speech right. It prevents government speech regulation, It allows for private speech regulation. It allows for the it for private companies for private citizens to speak. However, they want to publish, are really in it keeps the government out of it who sets out should work. see you like just from like an end like a systems engineering perspective, you're, saying: ok, we're gonna grow, the first amendment, which prevents or system from doing much of anything and if people wanted. change it they want to change our twitter works. They can sum overly. The first amendment, which is right, the main thing and it's a: u are trapped in a

Doom loop, now he's not worse thing. That's gonna happen because a person has happened to him he's like every other social network. It promises the same thing he's going to start banning people that do horrible things, part of this having a parlor happening to get her In truth, social nursery socializing the most restrictive mocker each, but I wonder why Is he actually going to do that? That's that's! The thing is we keep assuming that he's going to be, like others, persons that something horrible online they get the girl, but is repeatedly said he once every viewpoint on twitter. He wants to make this a big open ecosystem. He wants to minimize moderation, so lake, I don't think I know what it means green, nobody, that's why? I think of a reasonable here. Some like reasonable debates. You gotta have that every viewpoint on twitter, You can have a reasonable debate about the feds setting interest rates and p.

Scream at each other and want a murderer each other over half a percentage point. That's it. Interested you can have a reason debate about whether we govern shroud healthcare right thing. It should do a lot of people don't. does a regional debate rather numbers on both sides of the argument, have a regional debate on education policy. You can you really get lots of ways steadily, We can have a reasonably online whether brown people are inferior to british people, It's a choice, and that is the actually the aperture that everybody wants to open. Tat, read the the thing that everybody wants to open is Conny wesson, jewish people, control the media and the reason it twitter doesn't allow. It is one of the dangerous the attic, causes actual please. The violence in the world, but what it does not want to be associated with into it makes people fucking leave the platform

like the most cynical motivation that anyone can have is. Oh, this retards uterus user growth like this makes people go away. It makes the number go down in, like all of that is the people who want to open the aperture or free speech on the margin are not people with more conservative economic policy. It's basically people who want to like reintroduce racism reintroduce sexism right and what they are complaining about is not even the they can't do it could have you behind twitter I am very aware they can. You are complaining that is you don't get the reach right there, like the shadow band right, unlike if you aren't going to increase their reach is going to solve that problem like I just don't, I don't think that problem is tractable yeah. I just don't think that Ellen cares lately

I think he is going to go after whatever gets him the biggest numbers, and I think if he sees oh, I brought trunk back, I'm going to get bigger numbers or if I bring kanye back, I'm going to get bigger numbers he's going to focus on the numbers, not necessarily on the shit, show those burst brain because he cares about the numbers he's like a reality tv producer and you like shit, show Let's be hell, I mean, like think about tesla, remember like the the robots that we're gonna build the cars and he was like I'm reengineering from first principles how to build cars, and everybody was like. We knows how to build cars like just do that and he was like no, no, it's going to be an alien dread, not and then that didn't work out and he put it an extra card building tent in the parking lot of the fremont factor. I mean like. I don't know that he necessarily is thinking about any of this stuff because, as we discovered from his text, messages where he quits the twitter board to manufacture agro all asks him not to say mean things about twitter like this man has no impulse control. What

I think part of this is also like a lot of the stuff that we're talking about assumes on some base level that yeah and musk intends to keep twitter at like us, very fundamental level, the same and I'm not sure, there's actually like a lot of evidence that that's the case. I think it likely You look at what elon musk has wanted to do and he talks about. He talks about tiktok and he talks about payments and he talks about. We chat and it's like this idea. I, like I want to make this sort of beautiful network where people can talk to each other, that, like jack we're supposed to talk about. I dunno the dilemmas, because any particular interest in that so like this idea that, like he's just going to sort of shunt that off to the side and like let it burn down while he tries to build a payment net on top of it, and also I still like retain his own audience where he can use it to sell tesla's at. That seems perfectly plausible to me that he's like oh no, his twitter dot com or a moderation, nightmare and everybody's going to stop using it. That's really not

I thought I'm going to go like try to do something else on top of this network and make money when people like by subscriptions. Well. I also think about airlines here because we're talking about a hell, scape right and one of the things that elon musk has promised to do is he's. He wants to increase, subscription revenue most of twitter's revenue as advertising, but if you can make a subscriptions service really work for you, then it doesn't matter if you're brand safe, because that's not where the bulk of your money is coming from it's coming from your users and so like one possible thing that and do if your evil is like you can be a guy, you can have the helsinki or you can pay. I don't know ten dollars a month and not have escaped so this The most interesting idea to me the spirit, airlines version of twitter yeah. I incredible set out with the ceo of ryanair, where he admitted that for a while, he wanted to create standing room. Only part of the plane they tested it with lake seats that were you just like stood up and leaned

and he has I hears a thing: here's what I now we will show that part of the plane. First, like its moral, the outrageous, so you didn't do I'm fine with this, but the reason I'm I'm I mean I don't. I refuse to fly spirit, airlines and the sucker is like nah. I need, I need comfort plus at least come on. The thing that supervision where this is there, isn't a market for moderation, the thing the airlines have proven is that there is actually a market for fair classes right. You can. You can set ken segment, the plane all the way to at the back you are standing up and at the front you are lying down and people will pay various amounts of money to be in all those years. That's weird like maybe It's a little to capitalist. They put a proven, there's a effective functional market for all those different kinds of service to get from pointing Maybe we have never seen any social network really try to experiment with Israel market for levels of moderation,

even between the social networks because of all of the external pressures they all face from advertisers from governments, own users and in service of growth, they all kind of land. The same places with moderation, which I think is deep frustrating to a people, we've never seen any social network say with a single user base. Ok, you can. You can pick up like all the way moderate. and happy place, disneyworld or health cape This is like one of those academic ideas that we like hear about all the time like addy and casey, and I just heard this idea a million times. is that maybe moderation should be outsourced and you should be able to bring your own moderation provider and own your own algorithm to your social graph and you should buy the one you want. That sounds great, except when you play it out, it's like. No people don't want to think that hard about any software

it's like they just want the one that comes in a box like and so we'll just see. If the default twitter algorithm is the one that's safest for advertisers in the one that will create more growth. That's the one people use, and if your choices, I can turn it down and see more racism, no one's gonna turn it down. Or we are all very surprised at the market dynamics of attorney tom. So while we're talking money, one thing that I am really curious about is not twitter directly, but twitter's effects on elance other companies. So like twitter, for instance, you know if you have a strong free speech, stance on twitter and you're trying to sell cars in china. You have a very large attack surface whenever anything happens on twitter that the chinese government doesn't like, and one of the things that's true about tesla- is that it's not in india yet, but india is a really big market and twitter is extremely controversial in india and, like you, can imagine, if you're taking a strong free,

speech stance where you don't remove nazis, while you have a tesla factory in germany, where nazi speech is banned, so there are there's like one of the things that I think is really interesting here is that yellow musk has a much larger attack surface than anybody like mark Zuckerberg, or you know anybody running any of these. Other companies like you, can actually punish him through the other things that us, and so I think that's going to be really fascinating to see how that plays out both for twitter and for everything, health flake. What happens to space acts like if you know he does something at the government doesn't like? Does the space ex suffer yeah? I mean that one is hope. Like deeply contentious, write me a space axes in texas.

If he fights abbot, that's just a big problem, but they are in need space acts like it doesn't have a cap n bill, it'll watch anything by itself. So that's a good spot. I think tesla is the scariest one right this year alone, you ve. Now we ve got a big business and in germany, like you said, which has various stringent speech, was your huge resistance, I know we can you and operate twitter like you're. The game you are now playing with tesla in china is, if there's a lot of, entire china stuff on twitter. They can, they needed to Chinese ever, has no compunction about just destroying companies left in It destroys companies, especially the companies, seem too powerful or the executives. Those companies seemed too powerful. The elon is now in a place where the pressure he will feel to make twitter more china friendly is actually real, because tesla needs to expand in china, because that is the market for those cars. Yet it will anything

even more sort of abstractly like this. You can be written about this. Bunch in the last six months, there's like this force of personnel in that year and musk has that has gotten him a lot of what he has gotten over time and it is like Ben his bed. That. Just by virtue of the fact that I am elon musk, I can do Never I want at any time and it'll probably worked out because I'm elon musk and the rules on blasphemy and historically speaking, that This is true, but it also seems like that, like with this, Well that didn't end up happening in delaware. There was this real, I'd turning against him, and you could feel that, like these sort of cult of elon musk, in which, like the richest man in the world, can do no wrong by virtue of who he is seems to be going away, and now he's like tied this incredible anville around his neck called

twitter fails to take like give anything, is going to make everyone sour on the whole idea of elon musk its it boy. It seems like it would be twitter and it does feel like it's. Gonna have all kinds of ramifications across his that accompanies the tesla investors have been worried about this crazy distraction. That is twitter. That is not going it less distracting now that he owns the place and interest seems like if I'm interested in any of his other companies. Twitter feels like it's gonna. Just drag everything around him down into the mark for ever and ever David, I wouldn't say anvil. I would say album, yeah sure good at it from us. Let's take a break, I think we've made it abundantly clear what we think is going to happen on twitter. Let's take a break I'll come back, do what of it and what the upside might be

It's only a short second, but we read back hey folks, I'm heather cox, Richardson and I'm joanne freeman were the hosts of now and then a podcast from cafe and the VOX media podcast network that looks to the american past to make sense of our current political and cultural climate. Recently, we've traced the tangled history of the near county district attorney's office, the american cultural fascination with you ufos and our national love hate relationship with the banking industry tune in each wednesday, as we make sense of the headline. and the long road to this crucial moment for democracy. Listen for free wherever you get your pipe you're married, but you're, not in love and I'm in love with you, and that is what microsoft a high powered chat, but recently wrote to the new york times. Tat columnist, Kevin roost.

It made Kevin feel torn. One part of me is kind of my rational reporter brain part, and that part goes. What I am talking to you here is not some kind of mystical, sentient, alien intelligence. It is a computer, but then there is this other part of me that just felt like amazed and thrilled and a little bit scared. Maybe more than a little bit scared, because imagine the consequences of tact. That's convincingly intelligent, even to attack reporter I'm peter kafka, a host of record media, in the final episode of our special serious and I we look at the giant ambitions Enormous concerns people have about the very same tech subscribed to record media to listen now we're back once. I think it's

we are, we don't think he's gonna go, but what's the students are exercise and that's stipulate? But let's do the thought exercise of what might go well, what my work and we should stipulate like island, we concede twitter, is not a well run. Company has not had executives running at her, even like that's exactly who are paying attention? use the service, but that's it the price, has too many people. It has set of thousands of people doing nothing in prague, utter the outgoing seo his greatest accomplishment was forcing you onto by the company, the a person who has ever stood up to you. I must its product congratulations. You ships, no software, but If he executed this, he had the stones to to stand. Your grip incredible man, not in incredible deal. Incredible looks like this is like ceo hall of fame shit and he wasn't. Even he wasn't ceo for a year selling hats off man good for you. I think I whose even killed

sky then off, no, the other guy who's on a board brett, I didn't bread, tailors it the chariot. There's board in the co, ceo salesforce might have helped. I just wanted congrats It's only tutors well run right. You are showing up. Maybe he's gonna run it well. What are the good things happen? D, The jobs out to me is that by virtue of being private and also by being owned by someone like elon musk twitter. Can in theory, start to do some of these things that dont obviously scale. We ve, never really seen in social. Before, like this idea that you know you could start charging, for facebook and some percentage of people would sign up for facebook like facebook was never going to invest in that, because you have quarterly results and you can't make a deal in your business in order for like there. It just is no such thing as like a long term vision for something like that. For these, like big public companies, because everything has to look like growth and everything to look like scale and

you and is even talked about this. That, like the only way to reset twitter, is to basically go through some really really really black messy times on the platform and if he actually has the patients to do that, we can get this in. Better of interesting social ideas that I think could, in theory, be very cool, and some of the suffuse talked about like trying to experiment with subscriptions and trying to like build new ways of thinking about algorithms, and like will any of that

I don't know, but at least there's like an interesting test bed with a lot of people inside of it that could actually lead to some interesting stuff. I am going to say one thing, that's close to reality, and one thing that I think is pretty far fetched that I think is also interesting thing. That's close reality is, I personally would love to see encrypted dams, and I understand that there are probably downsides to doing that kind of encryption, specifically around like reporting, spamming, your dams and so on. But the upside is that you have secured yams now, which has been a long time problem for twitter and for anybody using twitter, and that seems like it could be a really good thing. It is something that we ve heard must talking about so late. I certainly hope that he executes on that, at least, but the other thing that I think about that's really like more farfetched is. We know he has an interest in a high, and we know he has an interest in euro link, which is a brain machine interface that slake mosques, ambitions for

are well beyond what brain machine interfaces probably can do, but he wants to like. Have it be, like you know your way to communicate with the computer? You can be a cyborg if you want so like there's like this wild idea that has been circulating that lake. I now have ovens and intrusive thought where it's like. Oh he's, going to use all of our language inputs to train like an eye of some kind and it's gonna be like the meanest nasa. Ere you FYI ever seen by euro. It's gonna be train, with all of this real world input from all of these real people who are really all on twitter and like as a database set if you're a person who x ray I that's potentially interesting. I've decided. I'm imagine these eyes that are just do twitter memes all day like this, just darwin pictures bulling me it's going to grey

if you say like hello, it just responds with the red icon. The most sophisticated ai in the world is alex. I did a thing yeah, all those things brought in saying you never know she is alright, so if David's, interesting test bed experiment on the population of celebrities. in world. They raise your dad and journalists who is, is our brains? that's it. brain, see, that's what I think skype is going to try to use a I'd, solve the moderation problem right. and he is going to put a ton he's already putting resources towards that. He was like are you tesla self dry. car engineers get on over to twitter and figure this out, and so I think, we're pretty rapidly going to have a very conclusive answer to caen I solve moderation. I think the answer is gonna be no, but I think we're going

he's so many resources put towards it in a way that. We just at a level we just have never seen before that like we're gonna be able to say he did everything in still couldn't do it and will finally be able to put that like put that baby their bed, we have the security over the years, maybe you're illegally. As we know, we can't do it. Move on. Well, the one thing I'll say about that. I agree. I again, I think, a lot of what we're going to see here is ideas that are abstract and academic, getting run to ground yep right in place of moderation systems that areas is going to can we scale I'd. Do it, daddy is around the ground, because if he wants to fire as many people, as he has said, he wants to buy twitter itself said it wanted to fire. Twenty five percent of its employees is here before you showed up with a witnessing. So if you want to get rid of all the people, you want to get rid of you, you have to automate some of it.

I like, or you realize, like you, just have a bunch of engineers- are drinking coffee all day and not doing anything tunis, but to me that the thing that he's become he's the king of twitter, every moderation decision is gonna, be a pie, it's his reputation. yeah that is true of every automated system anywhere in the world. Doing anything is it they false alot right they just like they have an error rate, its inherent to everything. Soon I'll do another benign example: content id on youtube is theoretically a benign system. I don't think it's a bad system, but theoretically it's a benign system right where the the music industry doesn't want to get paid for it's music, which is also theoretically a benign motivation, and so they can take. I've down if you that matches the copyrights, songs, this thing forces so much all the time. I think most people

have a better sense of the copyright policy of youtube. Then, like the speed limit two miles away from their house right cause you're, just confronted with this automated system, fucking with people all the time and all eating We are constantly talking about it in answer, harold benign system right, that's a sister. It's designed It has a motivations. I basically everybody can agree on which is artist should get paid for their music, and yet it's like a d practice maligned force ready like makes these. it's worse for its people. You accept that too, like semantic analysis of whether is this true racist or is it context justine Sacco like who knows right dad that system starts, falsely wit, whatever air raid, although they gets blamed. Anyone in that is like a disasters, I think you may be vastly underestimating elon musk stability to not give one single shit about

whether people are mad at him about moderation, decisions, this is made me think about mark Zuckerberg a lot, because there is this like this, like joke origin story from execrable, where he like, I genuinely felt bad about some of the mistakes. The facebook was making and and sort of you know about guys over and over and over and public, and then you could you see over the course of the last few years went to appoint reason I'm not going to talk about this anymore, like I'm just not, interested in this ominous but the metaphors, and if you want to be mad, moderation problems, gobi matted summit, as this is no longer my problem, I painted clegg a lot of money to be the one who apologises for the terms of the handsome face, but I am also again for the first year on congressional hearing yet elements. A forty out of ten on that scale? Just he's like? Oh your man, congratulations enjoy being mad on you. I must go by

sixty nine out of ten sixty four twenty six, nine yeah alright. So what am I? The one good thing that I think will happen out of all of this is it this is such a backwards compliment or here's my backwards. I think People are tired of twitter. I think they're, tired of social networks like this. I feel tired of them, and I I think that all this noise is, like a shock to the system that will make people reconsider how they spend their time. In a We talked- I am overcast earlier to like, we are surrounded by tat. Giants that are pretty complacent in their products are getting weird in bat like google search is bad. Like whatever is going on with the ipad is not forced to focus competition it just this stuff is happening in china extract more money from everything twitter

in this unique position where everyone just sort of it's the default for a bunch of journalists and politicians were where all mean to each other as weekly issue dunks and it is just creates a moment for some people. reconsider their relationship with that product cause want for human for free right and if you weren't creating content for twitter. You are now. King for you, I must for free. I dunno. You should work for the richest man in the world for free, since my my take on it might actually shake a bunch of competition loose, and I think that is a huge benefit for video it now cause or so in. it's sort of core internet services. There's some vanishingly little competition in, like everyone's afraid of Tik tok, that's it that's what you got. that's the evidence of competition on the internet, to tiktok in all competing with, by just slavishly copying it, I'm just

hopeful that this is you can't just tell people to be different. You have to they provide some shock to the system, and this is like the biggest possible shock to the system. Tumbler is going to come back. That's that's my prediction. That might be of real, but I've been thinking. I think a lot about this, because I think, like one of the big questions coming out of this is like ok. If you wanna leave twitter like where do you go tell what they're just isn't something else like twitter, but then I think The question is morphing into something, much more interesting which is like- and this is what's happening to me people with social in general is like is this a thing that I want like like is is is is the premise of twitter? A good idea is a thing that, like I have not bucks. I ve spent a lot of time wondering why twitter is such a bad platform, but egg is twitter. About idea is like not a question. I think a lot of people have thought about it, a lot of you are going through this now with like what facebook has become and what instagram has become, and now what what twitter has become is gonna spark that in our peoples, I think you're right, it's like for me at least

it's become this like weirdly, philosophical thing, where it's like, I'm not trying to like replace twitter with mastodon, I'm like. Maybe I should just be done with this thing that I do and consume all day in general yeah I mean I quit instagram this year, like I still have an instagram account. I just don't open the app anymore. And I've been thinking seriously about, like my relationship with twitter and much like the people in that writers report. Unless I'm life tweeting a trial or something I have seriously decreased my twitter use partially because it's like I open it up in its like a lot of bad feelings and people being mean to each other and lake. I don't know, but you guys but leg. I felt bad enough during the pandemic, I didn't. I didn't need the bad feelings up. That said, I do think there is a very funny outcome. Wearily some also ran social network like tumblr or linked in its an influx of leg, weird garbage users who hope I go full twitter on the platform

up. That would be amazing if tumblers already seen it tumbler scene like between tick tock and twitter. Tumblers has seen like this influx of users and their young users. That's the thing it's like everybody in this room is like I've grown tired of social media, and that's because everybody in this room, it was a time before social media and we have a whole generation of people who don't remember that who social media is just a part of their lives. They assume that it's that it's like universal everybody has it and that's the group that I don't necessarily think is going to have these big moments of his social media for b. I think that that's just a question that never enters their head and they are going if they choose to migrate they're going to migrate. They're, not gonna like delete the app and touch grass. Will I mean I'd? Tumblr is there's a phd thesis on my tumblr persists. despite the best efforts of our everyone around Tom, including users of tumblr, wrestling

What is right and usually things that are trying to kill tumblr apple, restrictive trade, murdered on the horizon, the user base of tumblr, ok yahoo through the years like a new challenge emerged, is new tumbrils like I stand, bestride you topple of europe tumblr meeting this morning where they, like it's on it is my pleasure to us when we're out of violent without yet in check and resources. Hartwell people that work there, like, oh man, it's our time. That's it s, echoed tumblr resurgence of emu on its back. We we have carried on foot reckless. We, who knows it happens x, it deals clothes he's taken it over we'll see what happens next is like the only logical thing to end on

because, honestly, none of us know there's there's no prediction here: how many people are going to quit twitter today, right just at who knows so the leadership question seems like the most immediate one right like who is going to He said he's gonna be this year. There was a report in Bloomberg yesterday, right put like forever like at some point. There are going to have to be people who, like run this company profession, So he's previously said he's an interim ceo and he will be bringing somebody aunt and if you remember from the text, messages jason, Kaliko today, is that we see an entrepreneur has said the twitter. Ceo is a strange up. So now we have that right is everything is hustling the only good outcome as if its jack dorsey just This is just for chaos, mode, britain, jack I do this all again, alright! Well, that's our last production, jack dawson is a hero. He doesn't even look like. He came out of the woods, so he's all woods for like five years and this one more tweak it. As being I mean, what's f Williams, doing now bring him back, he's added media.

Mr all, this is just starting at the beginning again, If that's the very chest, we've done enough thanks to liz for joining us. It's super. It's a west coast she's on the west coast, it's very early for her! So thank you so much liz we're going to have a weekend. Everybody have it. We don't. We just have a weekend. Take your foot off the gas! It's going to be great! We'll see you next week the and that's a wrap for verge cast this week, thanks for listening, if you enjoy the show subscribe in the podcast app of your choice or tell a friend, you can send us feedback at verge cast of the verge dot com. This show is produced by me Liam James and our senior audio director Andrew Moreno. This episode was edited and mixed by amanda rose smith. Our editorial director is brooke mentors and our executive producer is Elinor Donovan. The verge cast is a production of the verge and box media podcast network, and that's it we'll see next week.