Support for the show comes from shop, apply to run a successful on my business. All you need is an idea and shop. I can take care of the rest. Shop of rye is a commerce platform to help run your business and their flexible templates and powerful tools make building and managing your online present simpler than ever. You can sign up for a one dollar a month, trial period at shop if I'd dot, com, slash, vocs business, all lowercase visit shop if I'd dot com, slash box business to see if shop. If I can take your business to the next level today, that's shop, a five hour come slash, vocs business area, Roy riddles, mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of work. Big wireless does recharge you a lot. We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to him

nation. We decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you that's right. We're cutting the price of men, unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It meant mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation in front payment for three. My plan required taxes in these extra additional restrictions apply seem mobile, come for full terms. Everybody is doing it from the verge gassed on this week's interview episode, Ashley carman and I sat down with Eli seidman, the ceo of tinder turns out running a dating app in the middle of a pandemic. Pretty challenging ellie told us that he thinks of this as the third wave of the internet where people hang out online as a destination that sets right alongside the physical world. He brought up crossing, he brought a fortnight. He wants at tinder, a place where people hang out not just a place where you swipe find a date and then go on a date in the world. That's a big change for the internet is a big idea to have we unpacked it a lot. We also talked

about tenders, upcoming video chat functionality in order to moderate that they're going to have computers, ai watch your video chats in real time. So something goes wrong. You can report it that's a hard challenge. We got into it. We got gotten some of the technical details you hear all about it. Check it out It's always Simon. Ceo of tender, Ali said many of the ceo of tinder. Welcome to the rich cast it's great to be here and Ashley carman is joining us as well hash hulu. So it's the middle of a global pandemic. As you may have noticed sure, if you've been watching the news, tinder is a dating app it's for dating. How have things changed for tinder? In the midst of all this No! It's interesting. I think that the high level is that now than ever, people want connection right. You ve got physical isolation, but if you're single you're alone when you now is perhaps the most important time the other some interesting. You have sub trends, but that's pry the highest. The highest level thing that we're saying is

out of engagement depends on where you are in the world depends on whether your kind of in the peak of the isis moment the way of italy leader, Spain were new york was a month ago, but you know that the thing it's really comes through loud and clear, as people want connection, makes sense, When you get when you get isolated, you wanted even more so are you using increase usage of tender during all as yet abd flowed. It depends I mean there's, can we break it into two parts? There's the business side of tinder, the part of tinder, which is you know the the financial Jim and then there's the engagements eyed, the majority of people who are using tender and any given day the majority that kinda globally is not paying, for it is basically an entire free prague for them, and a small subset of them are paid member as people who are paying for premium features. You look at the engagement side and what is the entirety of the community doing barrier? You see very clear positives around engagement

longer conversations alot more conversations, we seen big increase his arm in place from a young women, women kind of eighteen. Thirty has been your begging, a big area. greece for us and so that that's been probably the big one. Yet we reported earnings now ten days ago or so, and we talked about Q, one and q, two a little bit there, million subs paying subs and that's you know, that's really a part of the business, it's harder to predict given the financial component, but that part has held up pretty well all things interred, and I mean what are you seeing as far as like? Obviously, tinder is a huge global brand and different parts of the world are in different stages of the pandemic. So what are you seeing as far as what's going on in India? Right now versus what's happening in the: u s versus you, know, canada or something else yeah. I think the simplest way to think of it as it seems to follow the psychology of the moment. You know both the the actual substance of the crisis. So, if you look at, for example,

italy and are now a month ago or new york a month ago near that you see there be a real decreases. It makes sense right. You know you got a significant crisis, it's happening in real time, people's distracted with something else. It's really much more and more. but when that kind of subsides you get a rebound back and seems to happen pretty quickly. I don't think we know perfectly how quickly, but ok, now that correct, this is starting to pass in of the psychology is easing, but I'm still home, home alone and know and add light some companionship I'd like connection- and you know offered I'd say you definitely see it kind of rolling through z below you. Now new york is rebounding and, as things have eased california, certainly I've been true waste.

that is true. In germany, germany he's gonna been one of the earlier rebounds, and we saw that very clearly, so you could really kind of follow the news and follow the correlated trend on tender. Japan's been very interesting river If the community in Japan and yeah that's been kind of across the period of time, more are moderated and you see that it's kind of had you know fewer peaks in valleys along along the way of termed in terms of engagement, so actually the pandemic lights up. With that mean that you would have less engagement on the platform. It's hard to know, I think will probably see a big rebound because you all of the physical world stuff that comes with tender is you're right, and so I expect that we will see that part of the brig band of oh now get out of the house in you get back to our physical world social if so this interesting there's a bigger idea. Here we span two types of connection in a one is the kind of connection we can have digitally and that's really important

Thinking about that idea for a while, and we actually started really this year to work on a feature that's about to come out each start to get rolled out to the first of our members and test next week, which is global mode and global mood is the idea that says hey. I can get connection from somebody who's, not while away way around the corner five miles away? I can get that connection and those connections, Meaningful, invalidate validating I'm seeing in those connections even other portion. Is it I was in miles away, that's kind of The story of it's actually an old story writes the story of the internet, which is how do I find my people, it's interesting when you apply that to tinder a big global commuter. and you know within that there's a set of people who say I want to be seen. I want to feel validated and valued, and maybe I can't find that person right around me, or maybe it doesn't matter if they're right around me. So it's kind of a part which I think is

interesting. We ve been working on for a while and thinking about a lot in a part of the physical world. I do want the person to be a mile away or two miles away. What's the difference between global modem passport, so, for he s passport is a week is maybe I'll give the contacts there. You know we started and global government early this year before we actually understood that covert was gonna come that that was on schedule to come out now, and so that's that's continue down the path in late february, Moreover, when we really realise what was happening in the scale of the pandemic, we said: hey, let's take them, the idea of global mood, which is here I want to find connection from anywhere from around the globe. Let's break take the prepaid version, which is possible. And that's offer free? What passport is you you've? Probably these stories its I live in l, a I'm going to london. I I'm going to paris on a trip and I want to kind of tat. for myself into london were paris so that I can connect somebody there who all hang out with w tour guide. That's the typical story.

hear me and when I'm there, man, you know, and so, and so you get you get, that version of the use and its paid features very small percentage of the total population of tender is using it global mode. Is I'm in l lay there. errors there in london there wherever they are in tokyo, were soul and we both opt in to be shown to in being seen by people in this kind of global community version. people say no only show me too, and I only want to see people who are in a or in new york- so in that it can be it's going to be a free feature when it comes out passports, paid features their dear related, but their actually different, some important ways to sing of tender. Is you know it it's a means to an end and end is companionship, remaining semi in real life or some sort of interaction that happens outside the app right now? It seems that you want a lot of interaction happen inside the outbreak of we'll mode. You might be, I might be a monday and that personally in Seoul, we have connected now we're in

inside of tender, already expect there to still be some conversion to something else I m so that leaders of theirs- and there is a really interesting trend here. There's too in my view, there's two waves of dating apps and we're entering the second wave with with coming out of the first one. The first wave is go by the two thousand and twelve, the you wash launch on: u S, college campuses at the time very, very unusual. You stigma, This really is the right word for eighteen ten twenty year old ought to use an app use. A website re at the time, probably more likely to meet new people. The alternative knowledge it existed for a long time. It wasn't a new idea of more technical perspective. It was a social called we'll stick about doing it in I, with the time was in my pride, my late twenties in new york and you would never have used a dating out to meet new people, was very statement.

So. The first wave is more more people joining the social cultural stigmas following falling in the? U s for sure but more. rightly globally, but we're still using a dating up the way we kind of met in the regular world right I would, if a friends would introduce here, he met somebody in college and met somebody at a party. You can meet somebody and then a week or two later, you'd hang out one on one and that's kind of how we've used you know dating apps. As you come to competence on Sunday night. You find somebody in the goal is to hang out with them a week or two later in the physical world, what we are seeing now. I think it's gonna be really interesting, second way which actually come to the app and you hang out in the ep, and you get to know any up and in the thing that really brings us to life is a story we all know really well Somebody on tender, go out with him a week or two later you get there and four minutes into the conversation like wait. There's like no spark. There's no chemistry like any depress me jack button, and you know it the pill of concocted all kinds of things:

he ways to get themselves out of these situations. Regularly emergency phone call, seven p m tuesday night you have a sudden emergency. Obviously The problem was you didn't, develop, reporting and develop a connection with that person. First, listen This is a well understood idea and adding Nobody really innovated here in a big way and that's the big idea, which is wait. If we hang out here and connect, what does it look like? How can we How can tinder as a product facilitate that you get that digital connection? maybe just stays in the digital world. For many, people will want to go to the physical world when it connects, but for some it will stay. You know it will stay, it will stay in the digital world so that the said to me, that's the big sex. Wave is like how do we innovate here? How did we come to dinner on us on a sunday night and hang out alive and connect alive and then some of those connections will then go and have a physical world connection as well, but it might be like a dumb question, but why do you want people to hang?

and tender hope, because I think it is an interesting place to actually get to know it much less intense than I wipe on you. I match with you and now the next step is big jump. The next step is to be on a one to one physical ino physical day break and what we see as this is not a new idea. I think this is like a new idea, if you're, maybe in your lay twenties or your your thirties, but In a sense you, the idea of hanging out, is already happening with urgency. Members that the background for this limited important backdrop is over the past ten years you gonna, we had the growth of dating out of coercion. Had the growth of the entire social internet, that's been a huge growth rate, with no three million people on the social internet. The social internet is stored one after the commerce internet and afforded the information internet, so information about commerce, internet, social internet. You now have three billion people and then specific

if we genuinely the eighteen nineteen year old, who arrive on tinder today, they ve grown up with the social internet. They ve in their life from a very young age? So when they are, Are they already hung out in digital environments? It might have been one night right that could have been the place where they were hang out with their friends. So the idea like hanging out and developing a relationship and developing connection, letting it unfold in a digital environment is not a new idea. I want to give you an interesting anecdote here a lot of talking to our young members and we kept in one of the conversations we kept referring to wait I'll IRA, IRA and in real life? And one of the one of their members, everytime were said. You gotta, keep talking about like digital. It aunt em in ireland's. If I read the physical world, is my real life stand like my digital social experience is my real life there, both my real life, matter really simple idea, but a profound one, and so the idea

you can hang out on. Tinder is already happening. As a concept do you et in strategy meetings in your eye for an eye he's coming, we gotta be. There is Are you worried about that like when you talk about and other social places. Yet that is hanging out there it still videogame right, they might have Travis got concerts and whenever, but it it hasn't been, the set of features or tools you might need to have a romantic relationship in fortnight. Do you see that as an opportunity? You need to create first or something that will happen organically or an emergent behavior that is already occurring and you're just trying to catch the wave? So I think there's two parts right forward. Thirdly, how's the the contextual environment that makes it possible to hang out that's a game specifically on there's other contexts environments. You know trivia, and I actually you can read about this right like that. That is an idea tat, another contextual enlarge there's lots of different social, your social committee,

he's out there. The thing that's very specific to tender right is its young eighteen to twenty five, predominantly its global and everybody whose here is looking for something more, that's really important right. You need that cuts. level intend at top level filter on. Why are you there? In the first place when you come to tender, you dont come from Trivia, specifically, you come to find somebody for something more. maybe trivia, and there can be many examples and ideas, some of which will work in some of which will and were experiment the law with these in the coming in the coming two in the coming year. But the point still to find something more with someone. That's really the point: it's a it's! What's the end and what means chidi. How do you map that too? This is a place that you want to hang out a long time like once find something more. Even if I don't want to go back in an environment where everyone's intent is to get to something more costly, What do you do in dismay? People spend a lot.

Time and tender they're going to come back to it again and again in the and throughout their life, or is it once you the connection you move on yeah, we already see episodic behaviour, which makes sense right. You know if you find somebody you get really connected to them. You data with video long term relationship you work were really the only out which says just because it doesn't last forever doesn't mean, is not important enough. It still important and were very clear about that. We don't think everything happened, last to be important and, as a result in we see very clearly episodic bet, you episodic use people come they come for a while. They leave, they come back, do you know if that starts at eighteen in journey and they'd spend their time on that journey, and then I don't think this will change that. I think you know I very much hope and expect that people will still form important connections. Even if they don't last forever. Could you talk a little bit, maybe just to catch listeners up on some of the work you have done on the interactive side to try to

crack that code yeah, so that you know this is what we're seeing happen now. You know if, if a few of the themes in in covert are you know, you can see that your online dating life, is your dating life. Right we are. I stand and we're seeing you know you can develop connection through a screen. You can develop connection digitally that's a real connection. It's a valid connection. We understand that and there's kind of a bunch of really interesting that are inspiring us. Yet what we're having a date and animal crossing orients. You know you're, seeing in silicon valley, like zoom bachelor, I think, is quite funny you were having to get any social experiences right, having cooking class as part of a date an online date, the others are kind of, like the things were seeing right at this moment, in covered, but they're really length, especially for our youngest members, a continuation of themes and we ve been really interested in for a while. The thing we did the fall,

last fall, which is an interactive experience called swipe night, which was of it was. It was a than to his for sunday night in october. In the u s and we build or first person, interactive adventure, what day? Is it like a series of story? Literally, a story we had pre found we'd filled, all the different components of you came to tender space, the whole community at a certain time of the day sunday night and you engage in that experience and you can have chosen an adventure with and was its fun and entertaining, and then you talk to the people on tinder who are also doing it. and now you have a shared live experience. You have shared contexts with those persons who have kind of an incense, a diversion, the context about which to talk about, and so that was the first that was Firstly, no major sparingly and worked on that really throughout two thousand nineteen, and spired by these ideas, which is like hey, you can have hang out on tender. You can have the whole community come and have it the alive and have been experience. We sure context,

use, the metaphor of going to a concert or nine or a festival, you're all their together. Through their lives everybody's. They are at the same time, you're having this experience and that's important. It becomes a way in which you share in a way You have the same experience in same context to talk about. It, makes it easier and lower pressure to connect with the people. So that's the kind of thing we ve been doing I think what you're seeing right now with covert is broader number of people, especially perhaps you or not,. are eighteen and nineteen year old, who used to hang on a fortnight there. Exposed to allow this. This digital thing miss vernon, Will experience thing, it's real! What I can totally understand it and well, look the big take away will be, will lower the cultural stigma and like at the beginning of the first wave of dating online were lowering cultural stigma was the big change. This is gonna lower the costs

we'll statement: we don't understand all the ways it'll play out, but I think, for sure, is a big change in how we said in our psychology round these things. A lot of your pardon nation has been around university students who have tinder you, which is specifically for people with a dot eu address. I think they're, probably waste five, but yeah idea in the college campuses area, students and then We see you made a spring break mode. You ve done music faster. was all sort of irony, Some curious, like have you pivoted those teams. Now? Are you just kind of like our ache school? campuses are empty. Next fall, no one's going on spring break nobody's going to music vessels like is so much effort, was put into that some I'm curious what those teams are doing now. Yeah. Yeah idiot short answer is yes. The question I was talking to something together day is what is back to school? Look like when there's no visible school, we referred to joining tinder at eighteen right of passage

become. That is an important one, is an important in a word word, eighteen plus out, where we work very hard key people who are in eighteen off the app to when you too, nineteen, that's a right of passive then, of course, we think of all the other rights, a passage that relate to going to college and tender use hopefully in their. So what can we do? Well? How does that How does that map over to the virtual world? Also, what is the festival mode when the festival isn't in the physical world? Isn't in real life? You know so yeah, it's we were. Might we've migrated over there? It's a really import in an area of our innovation. Inspiration is the youngest members of tinder. It's just interesting because I remember you also briefly experimented with tinder places, which was a feature that was supposed to allow you to see people had kind of crossed your path and then match with those people, so do you go to the same coffee shop as me there you are, I see you everyday now. I have an opportunity to swipe on you and a lot of your features were oriented around geographical location, but it kind of sounds like you, guys are totally

giving away from then actually location doesn't matter at all. I think social, cultural queues, after a lot more like Joe exotic, is a much more meaningful cultural q then like where you went to coffee. If this is the way of the social internet and certainly that way? You know a lot of what happens in culture is what happens in online culture and advantage of online culture is kind of. A broader idea is that it's democratized right on the water, the physical world stuff, where you kind of tend to talk about like take a festival, and we we've had this conversation internally, it's really expensive. The number of people who can go to a music festival is small. It is really up to the privileged few. So when we did swipe night one of the ideas behind it was not just that we can have a wide experience and a social experience in a context of tender, but it's one. actually free for everyone, and that's really in the inciting, when we think about the physical world versus the the social

digital world, like one, is first just becoming more and more important in culture and we're part of culture were not just where we have an important place to meet new people when we become Very fortunately really important? A brand in so Culture is basically in youth, social culture, and so his accuser. You know those were in tiktok right in tiktok videos. Those were in what you're watching on netflix there is are in the memes that are circulating, so yeah we've pivoted hey, I'm ryan reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices. Do

not hating. You that's right. We're cutting the price of men unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It meant mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation and prompt payment for three. My plan required taxes in these extra additional restrictions apply seem at mobiles outcome for full terms. Support for this show comes from american express business. Running a business is no easy feet. American express business cards are here to help whether you are small business owner ready to expand into new markets, or your business is just taking off american express business cards built for businesses like yours. Let's talk about investing in your business. American express understands that every penny earned is another penny that can go towards taking your business further with a host of select benefits and features available like a flexible spending.

There are more than just a business card there, a partner who works with you to help your business thrive and if there is ever an emergency there, twenty four seven support is ready to help. No matter the time of day american express business cards are built, or business with features and benefits like the ability to earn membership, awards points and select cards, the power to pay for big business purchases and more built for your business. Amex business terms apply, learn more at american express dot com, slash business cards, so I know a guy, We married the girl who is assigned the dorm room next to mine before tender ever existed. So my simple, stick view of tender is at it's for hot people. My understanding is like the profiles aren't built out with all of this cultural signalling, like you're, not required to fill out a lengthy profile with your

tourists. Your thoughts on Joe exotic that visual platform. This is what I'm told yeah also married to divorce lawyers like I'm really really at a remove from tender, but you try to shift that, so people are signalling more their interests. There going more of their cultural aligned. the first is just photos themselves yeah. I think they challenge it is. How do you make it easy to do right because we ve experimental lot with this and its it's comes up, ok! Well, how do I show up? myself like. How do I tell my story and weight? It feels comfortable, but also easy to do so. We ve and he added you know, conversation starters and were prompting people on social, cultural things. That's always focus you, don't even let me live. We a tender have understood perhaps uniquely well It's not enough to try to give people things to do to add it's gotta be easy to do. It's gotta be fluid, because talking about yourself is all

and people don't like to do it. So you know what I've seen thinking rounded extensively. Seeing the thinking you're at ok well should be have them write. A thousand word essay about themselves. No, no! You don't want to because the number of people who can do that is very small and nobody will read. That is very small. So it's always finding ways, and I think it's why, when you hang out what one of the reasons the inspiration but behind the idea of hang out on tender is, I think we can create ways in which, naturally, you can show more of yourself and get more be seen more than just for the two dimensional visual, but it still easy to do it still natural to do verses. I think it very awkward right, five hundred words better off to you is outward things like trivia comes from all other things where just like really quick heads did thomas and if I that interaction, yet we think the here it is you do can be a way in which you can kind, like naturally show who you are and actually that emulates a lot more than that college

warm room example that you gave right, but that is how you hang out, and a college camp is in your meeting people isn't gonna be. There's like one moment where you just yes or no yearning the opportunity to like unfold a little bit more as a person and be seen more as a person, but without having to like write a five hundred word essay that you then put on a piece of paper and puts in a slide under her door which I was a very dramatic coming out of. I want to go down this road. We I'd philosophically understand what you're saying so any major sounds like a lot of what you're talking here in a very simple all boils down to user interface design robbing the key. piece of tender that everyone knows is a swipe. That was a user interface innovation. It sounds like you're trying to apply that thinking to all these other spaces as well, Yeah I'd say: there's two parts right, there's definitely prophesied is super import ina there. If you don't get the product design right, I think the best idea just stays an idea

We need more proud as our ability to do that. Well and if we do that really really well, I think we We take ideas and don't just leave them on a piece of paper. They become your product, ideas that are elegant, that are simple, they're fun that are delightful, so yeah for sure. The other part which you know is is more complicated, but I think we understand pretty well is how do you make these things acceptable in culture ran like how is it ok to hang out on a sunday night and there you ve, got to tell the story. the way: that's a fine inaccessible. Well, an exciting that you'll want to do it. That is not a chore. If you think about the the first wave of dating websites, they're really websites, that kind of felt like a job interview, it felt like work, you know forest near all these things you gotta say about yourself. Your card is not fund at all and in new york,

embarrass, you know more than half of them are eighteen to twenty five they're in gen z. This is a fun time of life. It's supposed to be a fun time of life. We want to facilitate that not make it a job interview, so one of the biggest product features you guys have announced. I I think the companies history. Is this one? I one video calling that's going to becoming soon so I'm wondering I guess I kind of wanted. Just first ask: was this a product you wanted to launch before the pandemic, was this was on the list, but was lower on the west and the things we ve been talking about. Ah here, which are these broader, these broader themes of hang out If we think this is an interesting feature, it's it's coming, it'll, be the first of our members will see it in june and die. it's been on the list. It just wasn't the very top list, because the other areas which kind of the the themes behind swipe night, for example, were higher on the list too

tat is fraught for every company and launches at its technically hard its data rich. If you get it, if it looks bad, it's not very worthwhile. How did you prioritize at lower because a technical challenges are harder or because the three big social changes are come to apply from a tender with video were difficult. I think it was. It was just less interesting to us than the other things you talked about more so than the technical side on the outside, we've done it. You know how we're approaching it in initial inform some of how you're thinking about it. The trust and safety team at tinder is the team. That's building it. You know, because we want to ensure that it isn't fraught with problems That is very important. You, the trust and safety team has done or or efforts on kind of anti harassment and on moderation and global scale in your scale, einstein, a successfully. It's been a big big effort over the past three years, in particular

always been an effort, but it got a lot of attention. I joined tinder as a ceo two and a half years ago. It was kind of like on the list of things that were a very small number, one of which was going global, the second of which is like we have to make sure to be ahead of the curve, and you know technically and from kind of just to kind of how do you make the experience better and better for the for participants? Without that you don't have a platform, you don't have a community, and so that was really important and I'm really. proud of what the team has done. It, it's really an incredible team, very, very talented, and so they they're the ones. Building this you know very specifically, tenders. Version of this is a mutual opt in right. If you think about tinder, you both have to opt into match and so in order to be able to talk to each other at all, you have to match and as a mutual decision, and then further in order to be able to use video, you have to specifically opt in to agree to video with that person. Both of you have to do so is covered,

the double layer removed and then its being built by other trust in safety team who just really really deeply experienced in all of these on all the issues that come with moderating a platform at global scale. So I feel like we know. We know how to do it. We don't have all the answers. There's going to be a lot of things that we learn, but we we come to a pretty big foundation of knowledge. Is your trust and safety team, just tenders, internal trust and safety team like it's, not you're, not pulling from the brain trust that's match group. I think, because of our steel were in a week, shall we do? We borrow all lots of thinking across match group here. There is a match group safety council that is abroad. Map across my group is not just. ass, that's a knowledge base that has been external advisers who are very, very accomplished in the domain, and so we we definitely leverage that pretty sensibly. But and if you compounded by our scale, you know and the global component, which is

does u s scale the global scale for tender? We were probably the most experienced in the group of doing this at scale of applying in ITALY. Three factors: One is machine. Learning that is looking for problem The second is a large sum in moderation team moderating what the computers can't deal with more need. Human intervention on and then all members are really really critical. Part of how we get signal or how we get information about what's happening in, and and all of that is going to base baseline has to be in every feature we build any feature were that where there is the potential potential for anything problematic, yet we build in all three of those so we spent a lot of time. Recovering moderation in scale and other social platforms We think about it. A lot one of the things we hear from say facebook is We need to be this big in order to have effective moderation, we need to be facebook, size and to build a. I moderation capability,

in order to have a scaled moderation team around the world, just in order to support a global business. It's this. It has its this big facebook sites. I dont think hinder, isn't facebook size, I don't match group is facebook size You think about it. The challenger scaling moderation team to support the world and in adding video, which is, I have many or mechanical questions modern video chat, but that's just another level of work. Are you growing? Your trust in safety teams that challenges. It is a big enough to sneak a beggar. So I can't I can't speak for house. But thinks about it. I can tell you that various like we need to be huge. Yes, that is fundamentally, their answer were: were bay, we're not spoke scale at either tinder match group, and I feel that we have today in scale are both in terms of your signal from what's happening, to learn, and not just in english, but across more than many languages without sufficient.

financial resources to take day? The human moderation side, as seriously as it can be taken I'll, say, ferocity we're very specific. It's we are we're. Not a broad based social community worry as social committee, with a very specific intent intent, which is defined that something more we are talking about. I feel very good about our ability to do it. No, we don't have the facebook scale. So let's say I'm I made on tender, get off to throw the opt in If someone wants to video chat with me, I want to have a video chat with them. I hit the button and, and that person does something bad or untoward, or I don't like it mechanically. What is the moderation set? Do I send, is recorded in the background for someone else to review. How does it work, yeah, prob

what happens there and again. Some of this is still you know, you're still getting me. You know a month before launch give or take. So there are still some of the very last details to figure it out and there will be details. We have to figure out with the first test groups that we get. This is this. This experience is going to be quite far into an interaction between two people right, so yeah, and then we walk you through path have had people opt in and yet we remind them of all. The policies round hinder you know, and so there's a series of steps you have to get her. I think it based on what you described My guess is we probably get a report in our members are very proactive out reporting that probably becomes one of the signals will probably catch something with one of machine learning miles, especially as we get more scale in this specific scenario, mid, one of our other machine learning models is able to pick it up. Maybe we need us specifically to and one for this area, but I'm in

on an one second and machine learning model. Picking up setting that happening usually looks like one right. So you saying like I'm in a video chat, someone with other dawn and like any eyes like that's don cutting through to try reporting you automatically solely There are existing, you know terms of use for tender, and so you know I expect, will enforce that then the scenario describing is probably the easiest one to catch. Quite frankly, I guess my should make that question less and funny you're saying an ai is going to watch the video chat in real time. Yeah I mean we, we've been pretty open, write that on the balance between safety and privacy, we balance in favor of safety. That's it trade right so, for example, of this was end end encrypted, and nobody else can see and we can't get in there. We can see it

and so yeah. I think we ve been very open broadly by not not specific to video. It is broadly true about the platform because of what we do. Safety is more important how it plays outings, I think specifically in all of the new wants is around video. We were really- competition experienced here, we will have to see all that I don't want to. Try give you answers in areas where I don't yet know the answers and don't yet know actually, which are the real scenarios, but the one you describe is easy to catch yeah. I think I'm just I'm fascinated and taken with the idea of have computer chaperone a video day right wishes, sounds like that's very much the way you're going. Yes, well, all generalized, they don't want to. I don't want to we terms of use the terms of the knock at a change is not going to change that. I'm feeling we operate in Israel. We have. We have members who made decisions and what's what two people decide for themselves? There is no one size fits all

and I think one of the beautiful things about tinder is resetting incredibly diverse. It's incredible version really amazing, an important part of life, and we ve been able to do that. A global scale and support that, and so that is so- I I want us to be able to continue to do with important and valuable. What's right for our eighteen and nineteen year old college campuses, students and, what's right in delhi, What's right in Seoul and tokyo for twenty five and thirty year old, it's just there. There is no one size fits all answer for this part of life. Nothing to do with harassment, nothing to do with abuse purely to deal with like how people want to live and I think, a wonderful thing, and we we are we ve been in some- different ways: a supportive and encouraging whether it's you trying to do things that are better for our trans community are trying to support our energy between community rights. These are determined,

torrent, and that's that's one of the underlying values of tender. Is that more supportive of all the ways in which people show up when they're looking for something more but we weaken yet all, I think so, is a big team that monitoring all the vectors for harassment. All the record, decorous for abuse pushing at just one other wake as it is philosophically fascinating. I want ashley who is actually a reporter on the street and as if she saw him on take the ticket away. But when you're chatting with somebody. sending photos you doing whatever else you might do on tinder the chat platform. There is a meal step where you hit send an end, now a server can say: hey we're gonna catch this right, but there's like that act of transmission to a server the server declines to send it on, and that's kind of built to that interaction model. A video chat in real time with another person is not mediated by a server So that's like an interaction, design problem, that's a user expectation problem. It also.

Seems like a really computationally intensive problem because your monitoring, however many video streams, global scale, is that set of challenges for video chat that your facing and how are you solving Portugal that computational one cause? That's usually heart, yes, I'll give you really concrete example other play, where we we are clearly moderating. Tax rates start there. We have a feature called. Does this bother you or we actually have transmitted the text, but we think their media? but there's a lot of new ones. What is problematic for one may not be problematic for another. There's lots of examples where that comes to mind and we say to the recipient. Does this bother? You are actually in many times the recipients has. No. It doesn't bother me in this context. This is appropriate. This is what I'm fine with this, and it gives you a sense of like the complexity of what we're dealing with in our specific environment.

Right, when you are looking for something more with someone with video, I don't know it's real tat right like it's, not it's, not this new texas, slow relative to a real time, video. So it's it's complex. It out in small steps and small phase is white being built by the trust and safety team, its computational intensive right? We ve got a lot of technical chance to do it so and you know what I think. What we should do is: let's come back in in not a month too soon but like in in three months. Let's come back and go deep, that and will tell you in all the things we ve learned in, and I think at that point we still know not everything will know a fraction what there is to know, but we'll know a lot, but can I think, I think, like all of the efforts to moderate large communities to help make large communities as as good as they passed. it can be an ongoing effort and it's probably an ongoing effort forever enzo.

we know we're we're coming at it with a lot of knowledge and a lot of experience. A lot of the water really critical foundational knowledge. But it's you know it's the beginning, it'll, it's something we'll take. We were taking super serious. We know you have introduced video to tender in like baby steps. You ve done the interactive swipe loops, the looking gifts that they have profiles, why not just stay out of video calls entirely? Why? Why do you feel like you need to have them faced? I'm works great site. I want people to video chat in tender, the broader answerable, there's I'll give the bright answer rate the thing that video does right, video about video videos about live and videos about the ability to get connection and needs more broadly about this second wave of the evolution of me, updating, apps, connecting acid yells of networks. Were you there to meet new people and, It is an important, a really important technical tool because it allowed look. We were able to

do this in a war. All of us were doing this now in our work environment to get a lot of what we get from a connection perspective in a signal perspective. So it's a really powerful thing. I think when we do on tender, we actually the power. Website, as we bring to bear all of our experience with safety and the things that are completely off platform. We we have a much we have a in most cases zero ability to do anything about day. There happen outside our purview to there are a lot of benefits that you know. The second thing is, which I think is related to this idea of safety is often want a certain amount of privacy as their developing relations as their relationship is forming and they don't know where it's going to end up. They don't know if it's going to last and so are giving out her face time. You know your idea, your phone number, your face time, I d, giving your step, handle, etc. Let's get giving out all these other things may not be what you want. You may want to be abstracted a little bit. Those are really more familiar.

really well your friends and family, and so are you ever walked with a lot of role to play, but the poor place it starts is around human connection, and the emotion of that and that in video powerful that you imagine this is a permanent feature for tender. It's not just like a thing you rolling out during the pandemic Well, I work in nyc you're not going to be promoting it. You know just for this period of time. This is a forever tinder feature right now. I would If so, yeah I mean you know, we were were very careful to try, as we look at all things, covert, to try to figure out what are the things that we believe are here forever, you know. Maybe they are accelerating things that were already true they're pulling the future forward. You know, as somebody said, I thought that was a really elegant way to say it versus It's just here today, not far because it is a big, big, big effort and by the time we finish shake. You know that the crisis will be in a different place and on, if its fleeting, now we and we believe that the idea

of connecting emotionally on the on in the community on tinder directly, is, is an important one, and we believe that video is a powerful tool for that. I think that the way frame it is it's not a matter of if people will hang out on tender and connect on tinder in that way and spend time on tender, it's really the what and the when the what is like. Is it going to be trivia? Is it going to be some other? You know, do you know some other act? that you do that, helps you can act. Is it things like swipe night and and you know the win? I think it's going to be different if you're, eighteen vs, if you're thirty five for some people, it will be never right, but for a lot of people, it's going to be where they are where they personally are on the adoption curve. Oh, I really meant to ask: can you screenshot Ok, we will do everything in our power to block screen. Shouting video calls the others I work on under different that's something I have to go to applying google and ask or is it something just build? Is it that's

like a very complicated thing to set to execute. After you say, yeah We have really really good partners in both of those platforms we work closely with him. So whatever is technically possible to rise at the way said it, which is, we will do everything possible I stopped short of being like it is impossible that, obviously you can take another phone screen and the old school screenshots. You see these contraptions for how they took screenshots in the eighties. They literally use a camera so yeah we have we we're experienced in this area, which is really really helpful partners there. So, let's, let's come back in you know, let's come back in three months time and I'll give you more. For more specifics as we have them. How do you think about it? I mean you. You were previously ceo of okcupid. That seems like it has a different user journey than tinder Yes, I will mention masher earlier. If those are familiar match group is a company, it's about a spin out and be a public company It owns all services. I think

my understanding, if you run a dating ass, if I were to match europe where possible. Companies spinning out our major shareholder, which is ic ic in a were, were predominantly held by. I see and we're spinning out of that, but we've been a public company since the fall of two thousand and fifteen match group owns okcupid, tinder and others will match dot com of course. which is really where so much they started. So as you think, about tender in its role and people's lives, and then you got this other constellation of day services. Do you see people moving from one to the other? Do you see people, I'm leaving their long standing, ok, the relationship and coming into like the tender. typing ecosystem. How does that work out inside a conglomerate of seventy four brands yeah to question we so our framework from the tender

by declaring its every every year to see a look and keep in today's are very, very sharp guy, and he would want to be able to answer the ok cupid specific questions you don't but our framework for how we think that were really in the world of these apps unease is broadly true, both within match group, but but really across the eco across the entire category. we're the only one that is focused entirely with all of our energy on eighteen. It five on Genji unkind of how this how it shows up when you really young and it doesnt. Therefore, mean that there are members who are over twenty five on. There are lots, but that's that's the unique place we play Actually you were saying it with regards to tender. You there's there's a reason why we do all the stuff we do for you S, college kids, that the integrity of our audience. You know were much much bigger than just the: u s college student population, but as a place where we derive a lot of inspiration for innovation,

That's that's when we have in mind a member we're thinking about them, but when I was a sea of looking cuba that was not the member I was thinking about. Your oral would have orioles a sea of looking cupid. He got to tell you how he thinks about it today, but there I definitely having been in with roles at different times. I very much conceptualize whom I who I was building for, who we as a team, thought about quite differently? Do share resources across these groups have mooted? they coming off. We just spoke to the sea of Google. He asked I opera, google and alphabet resource shares across the various alphabet. Companies we wants to keep them very different. Is that how you think of tenderness? If, naturally, it is remarkable and I don't think we- it gets enough attention that massive own. So many of the two major services and manages to keep them somewhat independent. How does that roll up at the top and you decide- share resources Yeah. So short

Ebay is the ceo of match group, and she- and I work together closely now for four years- is fantastic and very, very brilliant. Super experienced in all things, dating online she's been doing this for a long time. She was at match, dot com, you know, running, match dot com for many years you know, we've we've we've sorry take sharing of specific knowledge, base, more seriously. Actually, you know you were talking about trust and safety. It's an area where we absolutely don't want to reinvent the wheel right. It's really important that we take the knowledge developed at tinder or the knowledge, melted, okcupid or match dot com and apply for the benefit of all of our members, independent of which, which one of the communities they have to be in anywhere in the world, and there are other examples of that around that which you know sort to get more technical. For example, you know their technical resources, where tender teams or working with your okcupid teams or teams, hinge teams etc to to bring to bear a very specific technical know. How

It tends to be in areas where the knowledge that you need is very specific to what we do. This is its very general computing knowledge and honestly that the person in the company that knows best is like eatable. You, ass removal cloud, for example, when its specific to the world of of that Warren and the sharing of is pretty significant and he's got more. I've been I've been with mad for four years now, force it okcupid now tender for tender for two and a half years, for one and a half before that, and I've seen as increase our lot over that time, imagined very intentional, I'm so I've been recording a podcast. Others have a right to push the button. Show that I do and we interviewed a bunch of data others who are virtually dating now unkind of how that experience has been going for them and pretty much the feedback we ve gotten. Is that there's only so far they can go with the digital conversation. They miss that in person connection. So I guess I'm wondering

Is there a world in which tinder creates like a tinder haptic suit, like? How do you I just? Do you think there is still this limitation like where what's the line like? Where is the limitation attack? And what do you think needs to happen in the future to make virtual dating, maybe a true reality? I think it is. It is various fur for everyone, but are our view in a mighty personally, but our view more broadly as it as a team. A tender is that there is a limitation There is only so far you can go that in a word, physical being certain, that's important and that's wonderful and that's been true furry now millennia and millennia millennia and is not going to change because of covert, and it's not going to change it's not going to change. I think that that's going to be true so that the physical connection we get will remain important and I don't think we'll build a haptic suit, but look, I think, the the the the wonderful thing about all things. Kind of internet and all things tat, somebody somewhere will be inspired

and will say this is important for it to be able to hang out an animal. saying. All that's really interesting. You'll want to do that. Ok, that's inspiring! I think the visible world has a a really really critical role to play. I can't wait till you know my I said I can go out to restaurants in bars and hang out in the physical world and have that experience and eager for that to come ak? So there is going to, I think, there's there's a there's, a very important place to play for hanging out virtually, but I think there is a very important place to play for the physical world, and now we have a huge community and they will be part of the communities they looked. I'm very satisfied I feel validated. I feel seen I feel heard, and I get my connection without that. I don't know what I would have a better sense in in a year's time of like what how the how this shakes out, what percentage is or what, but I'm definitely betting on the physical world very important and here to stay so and always all the these of asking about how you manage your time and when you, when people do work

I imagining running team. The size of tender across the world remotely is challenging. How have you structured your time when do you get worked on and how are you adjusting to managing really yeah? You know the one that I think a lot of people or seemed. I definitely ensure started to see, maybe six seven, eight weeks ago, whenever this yesterday, I do not do zoom video conferences all day long. I think it is draining in some very unique way and I don't like it move, moved water it's a lot of the things that don't need to be Zoom. Two phone calls were to a synchronous inside of google inside of Google docs. I think that to me the big takeaway, which is- maybe I don't, have a direct answer to your question, but I think it's a really interesting big is recently right. We, we assume that the default number of days into being the office was five right.

There was broadly true there's a lot of social cultural inertia around that idea. You worked in the kind of work. We do raids, digital work and you commute. cross, the barrier across los angeles or across europe. Those where are you offices, r and d, sixty sixty minutes and you go sit at a desk and then you do google docs and you do slack and you occasionally go to a conference room and you do that five days a week what this is teaching us for sure is that the default of five doesn't make sense. You dont need five. I do think that are really important value of being in the office on that all this has no the physical space has two jobs? It does really well and we're not think. That's that's a big on lock. I think, in terms of my personal time here the things being very careful, as is do I need to do this live or not How do I ensure that my data, since in that spent

I'm just sitting all day. You know the office actually brings with it lots of little breaks right. I'm walking here, I'm walking there and I think, that's a that's a more balanced version that was just sitting at my desk here. Looking at the video screen, you know while our today, when you say that there are so few of us as well to measure south company? I think, as you can see, the split of of bigger companies The companies that have a lot of like hardware divisions are like itching to go back. Pure software companies like twitter square work from home forever. Is that? Are you thinking about the same split yeah? The big thing will be that there's an unlock from the inertia of we just do it this way, because we've always done it right.

I leave for work. That is a lot around information work. Obviously, if you're manufacturing something most, this doesn't apply right and you're physically manufacturing it in a physical space, but for the kind of work that we do for sure. It's software, it's digital, but I I I don't like the framing of it's all or nothing. It's like we're going to work from home wherever there can be. No physical offs. I think, if the wrong framing, I think it's really a question of how do you, how many of those days a week do you want to have and the office time? I think teams really benefit from that and you can be maybe picking up off the conversation but from from before right, the physical world is important and we get a lot from it, and I know that I get a lot from our team interactions that are in the physical world. I miss it

A lot of our other leaders do, but you don't need five days. I actually think that a lot of hardware companies you are working more in the hardware world will also find that's a balances that that makes sense for them to help, because a lot of their work is not physically with their hands on the hardware is very often inside, of a computer in cash, wherever it is when you think about just how you want your team to come back in an area. Let us access to water signal about when people are using tend her going on dates again around the world What are the indicators you're looking at around the world and say? Okay, our team is MR, come back now. You know it's hard. You know we we're we're looking at two different things. Looking at Astor? This is all over. What is the future of work? Look like that. I think a really interesting thought experiment. I think it's hard to know exactly what it will be, but we can go with some really good theories around. Are in transit, signalled a comeback tory with least

There's a lot. You know you ve got density challenges or even when you're like oh things, are getting better and you're going to the park and going on a date in the park owing to the beach and allay right. That seems pretty safe. It seems pretty low risk in us in a dance office environment you ve got a lot of challenges, and so We. We don't have a good answer. You know, I think what you're seeing right is a lot of tech companies, us included, are continuously pushing out the date right that kind of comeback date, and my guess is that as people work through all of the the details of how many people can you really have the and what would that actually look like? And what, if you have one person who? Second, how many people did they get sick, etc? The date keeps getting pushed up so We're that's led me personally. Is I'm thinking more and more about what happens after verses, trying to guess like when you become and I think there is going to be were seen as now right,

if you're in Seoul. South korea is a very different story. That's the private best case in the world at this point, if you're in if you know, if you're in germany and clearly better but office work in germany still difficult right cause, it's a confined space anyway. I don't know that we have better. We, I dunno that we have a better conclusion. We have lots of signal. Popular having, but their behaving that way in kind of outside areas or low density or is in office is very high density. The last question, you're, obviously you're making a lot of moves right now for tinder in the I will. I would call the state home moment right we're trying to make sender more social, inside of a tap in science community. At some point, this does wrap up and people start to shift, and hopefully seashore

in person again. Hopefully, when we have this video chat conversation three months, hopefully we are actually physically together. That'd, be great. When you look beyond this moment, what changes inside of tinder do you see as being permanent in terms of how people interact with the app and like live in the app? because it that the shift from a swipe to ireland where to we're going on a date and that's one contained in our action to this? Is a community or this is a social environment dear I come two again and again and again is a huge shift that it seems, can I have yet to do it around everybody's sing at home, but it obviously seems like it's bigger inside of the lifecycle of tinder as accompany. What's the main thing you want to hold onto as you pull through this moment, you think the phrases

and pulling the future forward. What's the thing that you see inside of tinder is pulling the future forward yeah, I think it's er. It really relates to how the experience of our eighteen nineteen twenty year old members looks, which is for them if we can create an experience that allows them to kind of get to know. Somebody to hang out digitally before they go to the physical world and therefore what they do get in the physical world is more likely to be good am more likely to be. You know, kind of vibe angry to have connect to have a real connection. That's the part that stays and- and- and you know we were doing this- we were thinking that way, going back to late, two thousand and eighteen, you see and swipe night in the fall of last year. How do we make the community more alive as a place to come to his place, to hang out so that was informed by the trends we are already seeing. I think what it does it broadens it speeds it up and cove. It speeds it up

it broadens the number of people who say yet its relevant for me now. I think my way to pass you describe I swayed by nature. I you know we we text a few times and we say: hey, let's find a date to go on in a week or two, that's not going away that these are not mutually exclusive there, that both will be contained, but that's the part that will keep with us. The other part that I'm describing is the part will keep that. It seems like that you're at an inflection point where you can accelerate the broader. yeah, that's right! That's exactly right! Yeah! It's! It's! It's an outside its an outside thing that, a lot of people willing to try it right. That's a big deal that pure willing to try something new. You know whether that the car re or that is a zoo, meeting, orients hang out on tender yeah. This is it moment in time. We're like you, get a lot more people who opened their mind out of necessity, who are willing to expand what they think is for one, in a word like normal and that's it- that's a big change as a big deal

Finally, I think we're at a time it was really great site. You actually thank you. Thank you. Both wherein outcome chasing after After this video chat launches, I wouldn't have a million questions after launches. Does it sounds fastened, absolutely were happy I'll, be able to do it yet to be fastened agri, my thanks to our silent for joining us, we're have em back. after video chat rules out really get into some those moderation details. My thanks also to actually carmen there was a great interview. I was glad to have you with me. We back on friday with the chat show more and more of the sea of areas coming up, it's all a few politicians. We got quite a lineup, it's so common of severe chest. Let me know If you think, let me know who you want me to talk to on that reckless on twitter. I love your feedback. Talk to you soon, hey, I'm ryan, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate.

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