Hey, I'm rhine, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced that we raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating. You that's right. We're cutting the price of men unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It meant mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation and prompt payment for three. My plan required taxes in these extra additional restrictions apply seem at mobiles outcome for filter Support for the show comes from gold peak, real routine, there's a time a day about an hour before sunset, where the rays phil warm and the breeze feels cool. But the half hour of golden palace is always gone too soon. It may rekindle that feeling with a bag of gold.

made with high quality tea leaves it smooth taste transports you to golden hour. At any hour gold peak tea, it's got to be gold. The hello and welcome to the diverge has the flagship: podcast is in app purchases. This is a special at the party. We did a whole episode earlier about Google, I o about the mac review. The ipad review part two addy robertson's here, hattie, hey party, was all about the apple vs, epic trial or epic vs apple. I should say I would say backwards: it's epic verses, apple epics, the supplant literally the testimony portion of the trial wrapped up minutes ago, from one where you and I are talking, there is sort of fake version of closing arguments.

On monday, we're both lawyers you're just gonna, get asked questions by the judge from what I understand, which is probably can be way more fun. The normal closing arguments probably way more fun process The term everyone is using. For that. Closing argument is hot. Tugging is very funny. about it will be in the courtroom for the hot tugging, but the actual testimony All the witnesses understand all the presentations of evidence wrapped up today weeks. I feel shoulder craig federally tim cook on the stand. There is a lot to talk about their but wish to start with what just happened, because the absolute end of that testimony fortune, the trial with tim click on the stand was fireworks like it just went so It was a very boring for a week lots of Where is that we're not even to talk about because they were so boring? And then the judge kind of just lit into tim cook what happened to eddie yeah, so yeah

judge of underpins all rogers. Who is gonna? Be writing the opinion on the case and who occasionally interacts with some usually pretty interesting, but very short questions they moral. finished, examining tim cook and then judge rogers, two steps in with the question and she's like ok well, It seems like most of the revenue in the app store comes from games, so what's wrong with telling people that they can go and making purchases elsewhere, and then the just kicks off this ten minute law. and discussion where she and tim cook of this, like surprisingly testy exchange over whether it makes sense that once apple put like once a developer, puts something in the store. Apple brings enough value that it should kind of like whatever happens in that up forever and to me this is kind of the central question at the heart of this trial is who is in control of your phone in apples. Answer kind of nakedly throughout.

and we are in control of your phone right. So it doesn't matter if you download, fortnite or another app or whatever everything that happens inside that app apple wants a part of it wants in the intermediate your relationship to those developed in a huge variety of ways, for a huge variety of reasons, but the most important one is, if you buy something in an app apple, wants its cut, and what struck me about this exchange is that This is the whole trial and we ve heard all of these reasons for apple to be in the middle of you and after helper privacy, security, malware protection, app review content. You naked bananas, the whole range of reasons that apple should be in the middle. And when the judge, when it cook he was just like no, we gotta monetize our ip like straight up. He is like this is how we make the money and if we don't make their money this way, we have to figure out another way to make money and there was no pretense. All the other stuff was at the wheel

to that did you hear that is clearly as I did, because I was gonna, be have you been listening to trial, it's kind of a drought right, it's just like a blow. Quality zoom call in the background. I would like to commend you for being here with the left through. It is attentive easier, I then because it has been a drown- and this was like a jaw drop moment for me- that the judge came at cook and tim cook's answer was. This is how we make the money no pretense yeah. No, it was because this come right after a day where it was basically and like. I don't want to say inexplicably cause again: but it was all about privacy in a completely tangential way. It was like. Ok, well Someone doesn't want to do business with apple because they deal with china, the authorities and therefore you will have that they justly on and on and then there is yet a sudden exchanges he's like we'll get. This is we need to leverage our ip and then judge? Rounders is like well

It seems like gamers or subsidizing everybody else on the platform, because their spending all this money and looks like yeah well, this is the business model we picked. Dear anne, we wrote a story, I'm gothenburg ministry, for us in twenty nineteen. If you're a few years ago. Apple. May this big shift in how presented itself to investors that the future of its revenue growth was services. services revenue or any big driver of apples, growth as they are sold as many iphones as they could sell there were no more. There are no our countries to unlock. There are no more expensive models sound like the base of iphones was out in the world. Is huge number of hard to move the needle. They were going to monetize the phone more aggressively and they're pretty open about this TIM Simcox said this on calls when heim dug into it in two thousand and nineteen. It was pretty obvious that the biggest chunk of services revenue was the app store and the biggest chunk of that revenue was like candy crush wales.

Like people buying stuff in canny crash in fortnight and other games was just the way that apple is gonna monetize and that's a pretty even justice, need here so pretty winding road right, like you, gotta get there and it seemed like the judge clocked it instantly and was like, but this is pretty on air and using it someone she's like the gamers subsidizing wells forego, which is like almost My kids, this close to a mean yeah, get off your address. Gamers rise up asia just was not expecting her to go there? Was it throughout this transfer, fifteen of the trial in the courtroom. It has seemed like epic has done kind of me and ring bad job. The judge rogers is kind of like unimpressed and she just like came just came out swinging right at the outset.

Yeah no effort at because really seems like this whole week. Their strategy is just let's see if we can make apple. Look like hypocrites, so, like the listed out, they just went to the appstore and search for media sam and just printed out pages and pages. like a search results and then made phil schiller like rethumb, then It's just all these things that are meant to show okay, well, they're, not actually holding up their standards, this privacy thing as a pretext- it's not like you, don't need the security and then judge renders just yeah actually asked about the substance of the competition law and like the substance of like what are people actually competing on when they're in the app store and what kind of services actually apple actually selling. that again in just in this exchange, literally, there is more action in this last ten or fifteen minutes. The snake weakens previous fifteen days. Apple has repeatedly brought this small business programme, where they lowered rates from thirty percent to fifteen percent for debate.

I used make less than a million dollars a year and revenue is evidence of competition and evidence of them lowering rates, and the judge said the issue at the small business program from what I've seen it is it really the result of competition? That's a result of the pressure you feeling investigations from lawsuits, not competition and there's a back and forth in whom cook says. After we did our fifteen there is competition. Google drop there's a fifteen percent in the jail. Flat out says I understand. Perhaps one google change its price, that was competition, but your action wasn't the result of competition in that is I don't know that we can have like David. on the show, that's what he would say relic of the aid curious developers and ecosystem say exactly this and the judges repeating what we have heard for years now, I think what I just don't know is what what what that will lead to write like these were sceptical. Harsh questions were, who knows

its friends at the trial, is kind of proceeding along two completely different, like there are two completely different fights that apples fighting. One is we shouldn't have to let people side load apps which they can like make, I think, are probably pretty strong case for and its it was a huge giant uphill ask so they have got entire thread about well. This is the protection that we bring. This is like why our sister secure and there is all of that and that's flashy and then there's this entire separate question of like in payments and even and things that are like even smaller than that, like steering anti steering rules, which the judge seem super interested in that are really specifically about what happens. When

you've already installed an app and you're a regular user of that app. And how do you pay within that and like? How do you see your payment options inside that yeah and those rules are again the the sort of like site we talked to this last week on the show, but that decides. Switching here is like pretty fascinating, that the law firm that epic has retained. Cravath just want a gigantic supreme court case that anti steering rules for american express where they protected the anti steering rules were american express, was allowed to prohibit merchants from nudging people and other credit cards in this case. That same offer is amazon, epic side saying you should

let us nudge people and other payments which is like deeply fascinating inside baseball. But I think the judge is looking at all of that. You know one of the big lines in the american express opinion from the supreme court was this market is hyper competitive. There are lots of credit cards they're all fighting for you all the time. So these provisions are not unfair. hyper competitive here. The judges, like others, just no competition, there's another section here where she's like Looking evidence on the record that says, surveys of elvers thirty, nine percent of your developers are dissatisfied power. showing any motivation to address their needs, and then she says it doesn't seem like you feel, any pressure petition to change in a manner that you act and to address the concerns of developers and that's like get she just like clocked d. I dont think him. I have not yet heard an apple executive. I rare you rarely here

apple executive on their backs, let her, but in his trial they ve all been very confident very direct in control, and I think to culture seem like on his back foot cause. He wasn't expecting us yeah. No, I mean, I don't think most people are not expecting it. It was really refreshing, like I'm, really glad we got us you're my fear with what epics again, I don't think epic has done a good job here. They certainly lay out a case that, like a normal person will understand remarkable. The judges clotted, none of us expense is always when they know they're going to appeal this. If epic wins apple is going to appeal and then they're going to appeal again and then they're going to feel a third time to the supreme court, if Abbott wins epic's going to do that same

once you're on appeal once you're out of the trial court into the appeal court. You cannot introduce new facts. So there's a part of me that says. Oh, I think he's just trying to stuff is much information into the record of this case so that they have it should some appellate court. three year should be like didn't you ever do a study and have good offers are happy or not, and they just like habit, and that, I think, is a legislator very odd truth. Mishmash of ideas here just river rogers, also periodically makes note of the fact that lake there are a bunch of people watching this trial in public that there be no. She hasn't say this, because I like you to bring something like this dream, that I think that there is also a question of how much of this stuff is just being played out sort of for public opinion and for regulators and like

progress has been made very clear, she is like not particularly compelled it seems by all of the anecdotes that are brought up without whether that operators are- and we are not satisfied, but they are a thing that, if you're just trying to get the word out about whether your company is good there, a thing that you put out there I mean it's funny that, while the recurring themes here is like an apple witness or get onstage, and then epochs lawyers will be like wire, any developers standing up for you and like there's no way answer that question and then today, in real time, apple tried to insure snap had its developer event today there are releasing a bunch of stuff in real time. Evan spiegel, was on CNBC and said: I'm happy to pay the thirty percent feed apple. Unlike what Really, they try to show

story, it's him cook like minutes after it was published and have a huge impact youth. Yes, I mean just pull my ass wild, so that was cook, and I would say, if not for that last fifteen minutes a cook. My in view of this would have been, epic is gonna lose trial, they know it, but we ve got ten years of appeals to write. Like is that, as I can see where you are, I don't know. My tape was more like. It seems like she judge. Rogers is genuinely interested in the anti steering stuff. Might he could have been? Probably developers have to be able to put a link to their websites apps released at tell people about the rules. This is like the john gruber take it is insane to impose rules on people that they are not allowed to talk about. So I was I've kind of figured that that might come up no matter what I'd says seem pretty clear from the start, the like apples, not going,

I have to let third party stores on ios and the arguments about payment processing, it's a little harder for me to parse, but yeah. This seemed more promising for them than I would have guessed on. My I dunno you never know. The judges like she's pushing the witness she's got precedent to write to she's constrained in a lot of ways. Judges also don't like being overturned. Who knows what she's going to do? Who knows so she's But I could see her saying you have to allow third party payment processors right, we're not gonna do side loading or I could always other stuff, but you should give people here. waste and if you're version is actually better than they will take it, because that's competition that sea like a very narrow ruling for her to make without wander

into side, loading and privacy issues and all the other stuff, like you can just having a button. Maybe I'm being too optimistic is funny to me that she seems like he has complete disdain for this. Entire business have like micro transactions that you just keep bringing up. Yet it seems like you just want to make impulse, buys that bad. It's like you, kids. You want kids to spend money that they don't have. that's your business either. This affair is fair. It's entirely fair. Pulls own tv show. Mythic quest has like a sea plot about whether they should make a mobile game in on apple's own show there, like you're, just try fleece, middle aged women, out of money on the body like that's

was one show's take on mobile games. We should actually write about that show. It is very subversive for apple to make a show that hates the computer game industry as much as it does, and so that's cook, let's bracket clock. So that's what happened at the end. That's like the most interesting thing. That's happened this week. We heard from schiller I feel like we can just get through schiller's testimony pretty He he was great, understand, very confident, he's apples, marketing guy you weren't gonna, get him off message that you made apple seem fun. He is like. I invented the click we'll like there's not. so they tried. They tried to come at him a little bit with I'm message that try to come to cook a little bit with our message. I thought we were going to hear a lot about. I'm essex, lock in industry, we just did not yet really weird to evidence just up Like there's a lot of evidence in the world that leg now teenagers want to have iphones, because if they have a green bubble they get bullied. It seems like a a thing you can say, like you put in the record, to say it's hard to switch from an iphone in epic justin

yeah and to be clear, I don't mean that, like, I think, that's a slam dunk, but I think it was way stronger, more interesting than a lot of the stuff. Epic did end up actually bringing up. I'm sure the judge has friends who are green bubbles and she's like what up get an iphone a very relatable thing, but epic didn't pursue it very much, but schiller was good, like I think he he just handled epic's questioning very well he's very spaghetti. He's apple's marketing guy has been for a long time very smooth, recompose, hey, I'm ryan reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflate.

we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating. You that's right. We're cutting the price of meant unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It meant mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation and up front payment for three. My plan required taxes, and these extra additional restrictions apply seem at mobiles outcome for full terms. between the kids being home and hosting everything in our house. Get used up in summer within cigar can save money by stocking up on all my favorite summer brands. I save time by getting everything delivered in as fast as an hour- and I say it myself- a simple of dirty dishes: by stocking up on paper plates for the annual summer cook, up save more on summer. Essentials spend more time I'm enjoying summer add some are two

download the apt to get free delivery on your first. Three orders offer valid for a limited time: minimum ten dollars border additional terms apply craig feder rigi. That testimony was also to me just like very revealing of how apple thinks of its customers and what happens on the phone yeah. So he was basically there to counter ethics last expert witness james meccans like computer science guy. Who was talking about why it's really reasonable, like that. You should be to open up the store that all of the really important ready, occurs on device that you have systems like code. Signing that you can deploy on the mac that you can. so the plan, I it s, an increase the rigging gets up in his like no that's completely dumb if not how any of this works dear I mean that will make sense, and these are really hard problems like it is

good. That apple is in control of things on the phone at the scale they're in control of them, because if there is some rogue malware that hits every iphone apple does have a kill switch. You can turn it all off yeah, and I think that epic is like not made a super compelling case that the iphone is not actually more secure than These other platforms, like that's just kind of the trade off that you make with an iphone yeah there's been a lot of conflicting, and presented about the relative security of android verses. Iphone, there's been dueling study. Is its funding we're talking just after we did our iowa episode, Google, stood up in irons. Andred is more secure than anything sands will tell you that noxon and and samsung android phone is the most secure thing on any phone possible ever dueling studies to me. It just seemed like it washed up yeah. No, it seems like the and they're, also like they're, just kind of disagreeing about what counts as

Purity like that was apples. Big thing was that, well, if you just look a code or zero days or something like that, then malware than me be it's kind of a wash. But if you look at it's really easy to get something like that's trying to scam. You through a third party, store that, like we're going to focus on social engineering, so you a lot of it was, complicated the innocent. I don't think there's an answer there, but it is a complicated subject. Do you think the iphone faces? more state sponsored zero day attacks than android theirs. No way to know, but we also know that the answer is yes, it faces a lot of state sponsored zira attacks Are there more scan absent once more verses and other hard to tell? But there are a lot of scope

apps and all of these review processes are supposed to catch it and protect it so awash, but that I think, brings a ne for chess. Listener knows, like the other comparison to make, is to windows and the mac, and so epic tried to commit federighi about the mac, and that was to me just just wild that the comparisons he was making any analogies. He was using yeah. So the mac is like a car, It's I'm, you can drive it off. Road is what he'd said, and you have to be really carefully trained to use it, and he did not say that you need a license. But apparently it's really like you need to be a specialist. You have to understand, and you knew that you were getting into this thing: you're buying this metal death between the mac and the iphone and the ipad their great, because babies can use them literally

Let in literature he says with islets we're safe, we able to create something, we're children, even infants can operate and I was too must be safe and doing so. This is also complicated right, one of the good, things about I ios devices and andrew devices sort of out the box is that it's a very hard to get

at malware and bad apps on them. In february even said, we have trained ios users to just download apps with abandon, because you can't do too much damage. Okay. On the flip side, it's like what, if you do, think that you are capable of operating your mac safely, shouldn't operate my iphone. That way like there's, just like a big question in there and it's like what, if I don't want to be a baby yeah and it's boots on one hand, it is okay, look I I have my phone and I have my computer. I have both these devices and they serve different purposes, and if I have a computer, I'm perfectly happy to like install software,

on the computer and use my phone as a locked down like little locked box. The thing that first reading to me is that also like apple and a lot of other companies see mobile as the future of computer like they just see. That is the future of what the computer is, and that's not really the future of like, if you think, of the iphone as a supplementary device Then I understand where they're coming from, if you think of it as the future of computing. I don't know that. I want that to be the future of computing yeah and again. This is part two of a road test data and I just six hours talking about his ipad programme. You- and this is what we talked about- that apple sees the I've had pro, which runs. I've had a wuss which is basically eyeless. Is this ensure their future product and even though they're like updating the max and they've got new chips every time they talk about the ipad, you see them just burst with pride that they even invented the computer of the future, and it is as lockdown as an ios device, and I just

reading. This quote from federally mac. Users expect a degree of flexibility. It is useful to what they do. Some of them are soft. it offers. Some of them are prose running their unique tools in having that power is a part of it. This implies that sir. Four developers and praise running their own tools should not use EU estimates it, and that is as no correlation to how they talk about those products in the there's. Just it disconnects a keep come back to it. Apple really thinks that it is always in control of your phone this computer that you have in your pocket. All the kind of always belongs to apple and some people can paint. Like I hear this, one was trying to get the emails. Some people are paying apple for that.

But some people are paying apple for a bunch of other stuff and getting that as part of the deal and with no way to turn it off, and I I just think it's really strange. Also just I dunno it's weird. If you try to extend, if you try to think if every computing device in my life worked like the iphone That would feel completely bizarre, like if I installed a piece of software on my mac and then anything I bought within that software or anything. I did with that software having to go through kind of centralized apple system. That seems really weird to me, like it doesn't necessarily, I kind of get micro transaction like costs. on a phone that seems intuitive just because it's a thing, that's happened so much, but if you extend extended to other devices, it seems really strange and intrusive and this obviously come straight to the mac appstore, and how apple has that fast?. the on the mac. I will tell you we ve heard from a lot of jennifer's over the earth. They do not love the mac. Appstore

There's just a lotta reasons. Do not use it to not be in it. She, Among them are all the complaints we hear about ios they don't get to own their customer that end it's due updates and free trials on the social but federer. He was like the level of malware on the mac. We don't find it accepted, and if we use the mac security model on the iphone with all those devices other value, it would get run over to a degree dramatically worse than is already happening on the mac. I was as a dramatically higher bar for consumer protection. The mac is not mean advertising that is such a just dire evaluation of what the heck is. I've been trying to not take all of this to seriously just because This is the thing you say in a trial like you have to be in a trial. You have to say trial things that make sense for your argument like how we ve had fifty different deaf sure of a game, and I'm probably pretty sure that if you asked him sweeney like in a bar, can you play like described your platonic ideal of a game? He probably say something different than what he says and trial? That's four, but it still it's really groom.

Yeah, I have struggled to sort of balance it out as you're talking about ray it's a trial of saying strength are also under oath. The level of our re evaluating this for the trial in making the arguments I get a move on, and there too this mercenaries, and so the next thing we need to say- or is this, how they really feel and to me ten cook when being pushed on? Why, yes to lock down in it purchases saying. This is how we monetize or software development for the phone that is as real as it gets writers. Not this bluster about malware security. It was just this, is our business model and were sick into what we think it's fair and in all this stuff, a federal EU presidency securities. That's all the district and around it, and I'm wondering how much the judge has bought the distraction versus like being centred honed in on the business. While question

recent peanut butter gaps are the greatest. But let me play the elbows advocate here. Let's see so no one, that's a good thing. Stiffly, not a problem Raising it did it use, dump this charming demo, I'm Josh mucho host of the pitch from box media people describe the page as the anti shark tat and I actually agree take everything you think you know about venture capital, start ups and fund raising and throw it out because, on my show, you'll hear the true story of how these deals get done on our upcoming.

season. You'll hear legendary investors like charles hudson and Elizabeth yen invest over a million dollars in the start featured on our show, and let me be clear: none of this is staged. Each episode of the pitch features real entrepreneurs pitching real investors for real money. Then we go the extra mile to tell the true story of what happens after everyone shakes hands and walks out of the real listen to the pitch podcast, to learn from the smartest investors and founders of world season. Ten starts on Wednesday august. Twenty third follow the pitch for free wherever you listen, the pot casts prevent a couple minutes left. I want to end. We can't end without talking of fishing. Further ridiculous definitions of what a game is central to this trial. Walk me through what happened with row, blocks because they they change our whole website and they changed back in, like schiller, got to do

Big smile like what happened of eight so robot. It is I'm going to try to describe this in the broadest terms possible. It is a piece of software, and people can use like a language in which you write rules to make things that people can interact with, and they upload that to the central software and people can launch those pieces of user created software from inside roadblocks, the software and then the people create those years generated. Experiences can sell things around that, and so you have games studios that can basically pay their employees by selling in purchases. Through these things they typically call them game robots as fast as it came in the store and It early in the trial. There was a lot of confusion about this because apparently around two thousand and fourteen somebody actually like pointed out that look roebuck's look, it looks a lot like a store within a store

that you just it's not even like second life, you go in and you wander around, it's like you got a list of things and you launched the thing and the thing launches and it's a game, and so they it to the review board. Apparently just nothing happened. I just kept. going in its very successful now and so There is one of their appstore review. Executives was like yellow the thing is the things I've roadblocks those games tells us and robots itself wasn't a game which has its own weird thing. he's like a games have a beginning and end, and this challenge in place. And this was reiterated a couple of times it's like yeah. This is like a minecraft map, it doesn't introduce new code and then roadblocks which, like this isn't weird for it necessarily has been positioning itself as a metaverse. It's called these things experiences a long time, but it just went in like control like find and replace game with experience all over it's website, Unlike its ups, the games tat became the discoverer tab. The experiences you creating a new

It became creating a new experience. Instead of max players, you have max people, they just like wiped everything, game related from their sites and then phil schiller came to the stand days after this had happened and they're like so roadblocks. What do you think grow boxes? It's like well, in my opinion, it's a game and he like bugged yeah. I mean I'm not in court, so I can't see it big, yes, you lose was in the room and she was like a huge grin on schiller's face when this happened. Yeah amazing and then the distinction he said is that there's probably games inside it. But the games are not developed by developers, they created by creators because developers they are making a thing. They're like coating, independent up the light goes on your phone. It could introduce malicious code. Apple has to review it, but these things there created

if they are using a sort of sandbox. That roadblocks creates like a scripted sandbox and we know all the code that can run in roadblocks and therefore, if you're building this thing inside roadblocks, we know that it's safe sure, which then raises a bunch more questions like okay, then, what's the problem with the microsoft like with x cloud, which is basically video and then they have answers to those questions, but it gets complicated. But the point is I I kind of feel for roblox. They have gotten they've gone through a real roller coaster. Here I mean, I think one of your tweets was like apple's all over the map on the roebuck's question, like every apple witness, had a different answer ro last week now usually conflicting yeah site always and in robots. Is older than the appstore, just like it from the iphone this very evening. My favorite part of all this

is that your story was read was read the schiller yeah, it was brought up, and then he read one paragraph of it. I mean aren't just the fact that we're so intertwined in this, but like ADI's being too humble about it like they do. They brought up her story in court and hedge phil schiller, need a paragraph advert story about reeboks, changing onward game. To experience, which is just for talk about a metaphor like we're just like in it, Conversely, rehearsal really strange, ok, so on monday,.

The judge is going to have the lawyers from both sides she's going to hot tub him and asked both sides questions at once. That is the quote: unquote, closing argument: when are we expecting a decision before august, thirteenth, probably so august, twelfth at best, so we're going to they they're going to file final briefs next friday and by next friday? So it's definitely not before then, and then, after that there is jury selection for another. trial in like early june, and then this opinion could be hundreds of pages long, there's a bunch of evidence to consider an but were hopefully gonna get it before mid august It has been a long and strange three weeks. I cannot believe that your life treated all day every have one more day, one more day to go, but it has been just a very revealing trial. Like I hear what you're saying that, sometimes you say what you need to say at trial, but apple's attitude about what the phone

it is in their constant relationship to you, for example. I think cook use the best buy analogy again today. Why would apple ask best, buy to publish a lower price for the phone and bestbuy yeah I get it. The best way would probably say no. But in fortnite makes no sense that, like once you take the iphone home, it is covered with ads for apple services. Apple itself will be like it's time to buy. when you phone, you can buy it directly from us on your phone. They are totally in control of that purchase experience and they want to extend it into every other app and extend that control in every other. App. If this case taught me anything, it's this trial taught me anything. It's that all the way up to tim cook. That is their belief that third party apps are just extensions of ios, not other applications that run on top

with the son, and I just it's as verge cast years. It gets right even as a very narrow semantic debate, but it is. I thought it was super revealing. What's your big takeaway, I mean, I think that he is trying to take away. My takeaway is that it's weird to think about the web. In all of this that it's Isn't everyone just points to the web constantly as the space where you can do anything- and this is like the final frontier of things that are not controlled by whatever company makes the system that you're running are like? Oh well, if you don't want to pay something, just go and do it through the web. It's the most that I think I've seen anyone talk about the web being useful for a long time, which is really weird it'd, be amazing. If the judge was like. Alright, I've read all the evidence, I've heard all testimony apple ass to allow secondary web browsing engines, and they often done enough I walked away, I don't think that's gonna happen. Booby immigrant worker ok, addy. Thank you. So much though you for listing

it's two hours of virtue this week, which is insane Thank you all for listening and getting answer. It will be back next week with more you can tweet at us. Atty is at the decks gree you should look at her. Twitter is full of tweets from the trial. I met reckless. We love hearing from you next week, Rock'N'Roll the hey, I'm ryan, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally,

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