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Their second season tells real stories from real people directly impacted by some of today's most pressing issues. Their latest episode into the mix, takes listeners to the dairy barns of rural vermont. To tell the story of how grassroots activism for safe conditions, competitive wages and humane working hours led to an innovative worker led program that let workers decide for themselves what dignified working conditions look like hear their story on into the mix out now, the You listen to the verge, cast the flagship podcast of building your own lifesaver, I'm your friend alex, and- and I gotta confess a dislike. There is not an episode of the verge cast because I am in disneyworld having a great time on vacation, but don't worry so the land of the giants playing for you. This season is all about dating apps and is really really interesting I think you're gonna, like it

friday, Neil I and I will be back to talk about everything going on in the news this week with lots of other people from the verge say two until then have a good day rock and roll lucky me. I want to tell you about this. Guy I dating up guy sort of he's been seeing dating ups for nearly a decade, but a few, years ago. He discovered something about them that made him feel a little cheated. His name is, as Gilbert he's an attorney in midtown manhattan, it's sick that your lawyer with you in a surprise, some other people when I him he was rang. These heart shaped lolita, glasses and leather pants down. minimum stylish lawyer live. Come across, thank it out of my aim for and when it to the alps he's seen at all. You told me he said

using them. Many is pretty young like most of ok. Kids I was using grinder when I first started his that's like really. The only way to make me other gave able cry. there was enough when he was living in the suburbs, but he moved to new york in twenty sixteen and had a new city knew me moment, so we decided to I some new dating apps okcupid, was first it had these corky queer friendly ads on the subway that caught his eye, I do have offer, adds very easily Then he got on tinder when I started. Tinder was like this is the fancy one? This is the one that you go to the media a more long term partner at the time Europe is already building a reputation as a hook up app, but when gilbert compared to grinder, it actually felt more serious, so he was on these opts for years and went on so many bad deeds. You know he wanted to be done. I mean

Dating burn out is real totally and then in twenty eighteen. He thought he saw the light at the end of the tunnel hinge. Was supposed to have this sophisticated algorithm. You know, high quality matches the app pitched itself as designed to be deleted, and then I think the first five or six profiles, I've seen where people had already talked to in some of them had already they ve been on dates with like the same dates that precipitated me switching to a new Ok, so I think I know where the story is going.

Did you proceed to match with them, or did you like? Throw your phone away in frustration or it just made me sit there for a bit was like this? Is new york? It's one of the biggest cities in the world. These cannot be the only options here. He did not throw his phone, but he was left with a rage. Induced curiosity, ok, cupid, tinder hinge. These apps were all market. differently. They were supposed to provide distinct experiences, so why did using them feel so similar after doing a bit of research? He realized that if the aps he'd been using over the years. Besides grinder we're under the same corporate umbrella. I feel kind of big

cheated in a way it's like. Okay, tinder has been treated me badly. Let me tried hinge. You know that kind of like the same way like if you have a bad product you're like oh I'm, going to buy like bat competitor's product. Instead, the dozens of dating apps and websites all owned by the same company. That company is match group of like how. How is this possible This is land of the giants. Match group owns nearly all of the time Dating absenting united states, which means it control the way dating works for millions of people. That's a lot of power for one company to hold an. I got all of that power through a long campaign buying up the competition and steering our romantic lives. It's been alive british business for match group kitten those are most intimate. Preferences and behaviors and

She uses that data to better sell itself to build new. features that make more money from our desire to connect. But what about you serves as match group perfects the business model of dating people seeing better results. That is a great crash, and send data since used to work at match. Group we thought would be a good idea to hear your fresh take on matches story. I can't wait. here what you find out thanks likes me, ooh the. the dot com boom in the nineties was a bit of a wild west and a young computer scientists named Gary Crimean wanted to try his luck. He had an mba from stands, but his big business idea was pretty simple. He bought up a bunch of catch, you domain names, jobs, dotcom, housing, dot, com.

Otto stockholm, the also owned sex dot com, a match, dot outcome in ninety. Ninety five, the first version of match dot com, would have looked familiar. I've seen old walked Like they literally look like the classified section in the newspaper, which, broadly don't you exist anymore, that's amr, not that's brain he's the sea of match could prepare, and that was exactly the idea. That match and all of those other domains what funds as a sort of online classified space. Chris and created a company called electric classifieds, two houses domains named himself: the ceo and set out to conquer the digital classifieds business and what risks actual classified section didn't have personal ads. The only thing was personal ads weren't, always that respectable in the mid nineties. A lot of thee Media was talking about the dangers of the internet, only that

persons, which were mostly newspeak burn. Nine hundred numbers had a very bad reputation. Friend Meyer was a classmate of clemens from Stanford when she joined electric classifieds. Coming put her in charge of matched our com snow had an image problem. Meyer says that the personal ads sections of local weekly newspaper is often featured fake adds that were basically scams as, like I'm interested in again being really disgusting. That would, though, generate lots of phone calls to the nine hundred number okay. So this is the reason why I personally were were considered fairly sleazy beyond that the internet was new for most people and for those who are already online meeting, someone off demand, anonymous conversations in it.

finally sketchy chatrooms, so match and Meyer had to figure out how to clean up the sleeves factor and begin to build trust she said that they started with the idea that men would follow women and the way to get women or match was to make sure the men were serious. A great way to do so. Make them pay to use the service subscriptions. Once we start charging, the percentage of women went up almost immediately, and I think it's because a sort of qualified the guys that were on the service there were a lot of other online bristles, but there was a man that was really taking a brand focus target focused approach and I think that's why we emerge as the winner from really for the very beginning. Today we adapt our regular wigley feature computer line to valentine's day. The search for true romance, as you probably know, can

in just about anywhere, but these days many of those seeking soul needs are turning to the internet. online dealings rio brand got the good morning, america seal of approval in the late nineties. By then a lot has changed for one thing: more people were using the internet and culturally things. Shifting to conversations about cybersex in shows like sex in the city and films like you, ve got male were helping to arrive. Kate DE online dating is dangerous and weird stigma. It wasn't enough for the owners of electric classifieds criminal. already gone he'd bounced in ninety six. After budding, heads with investors a parade of you see you did not see a future for online dating in ninety. Ninety seven electric classifieds sold match dot com This is where media mobile, very della, comes in his company bought match our common. Ninety, ninety nine for fifty million dollars. Diller was

entertainment executive who'd been the chairman at paramount pictures and launch the fox network in ninety. Ninety I've. He made his last big play in tv and bought a bunch of regional stations that, along with the internet Essentially, we followed our curiosity. We're not deal junkies in a sense, but there's a lot of curiosity and a ton of opportunity, and so we just follow the opportune that's dealers, speaking to fortune magazine opportunity, to him meant gathering his acquisitions under one corporate umbrella. The name of his behemoth was interactive court. I see, for short, when I see bod march dot, com The website had five hundred thousand users. That's roughly the population. Minneapolis, but diller wanted to dominate the whole country, and then the world

did what he did best and went on a deal making spree. He bought exclusive rights to the personal, section of new york, mag and b t he parted with emerson and a well to increase matches membership base. Then there was the marketing national radio and tv spots, inviting people to come and get your love a very Two thousand and six partnership. Doktor fell Jody jody still day dream about. Mr right, you you've got personality. Looks I to me guy q. That's all it master. Come today. A campaign for people who still felt online dating was for losers, if featured real match users. I thought I had in this odd from two thousand and seven danish beauty. Twenty two

is wearing an evening gown she's gorgeous unglamorous, the tagline for the campaign. It's ok to look. whether it was matches aggressive marketing, greater internet usage, a shift in pop culture or all of these things. At some point online dating became a thing and match dot. Com was leading the pack, here's diller again He came to fortune in two thousand and nine about ten years after first by match, boom million five hundred thousand people pay twenty five bucks a month or so to do this thing now and that's a very good margin, really remarkably solid business with a solid business good margin and cash flow icy could use its work has to level up match dot com into something entirely new eyes. She is holding company, meaning they have stakes in a variety of other businesses.

And so like a conglomerate. They don't just have one type of business, David, like us friends ever more global advisers and investment firm. That specializes in holding companies like icy marcus is a big fan of the dealer way I see as a compound in machine. They just do this These tie haines spend years developing them. Then what comes out the other side is a great business that can live and stand and thrive on its own. Put it even worse, and we think about a magicians hat icy itself is the magician and over the years, he's been pulling always rabbits. But these are rabbits are multi billion dollar opportunities. It wasn't it that matched outcome was growing and making money there's, still wanted to forge a company that would dominate online dating entirely

in two thousand and nine match. Dot com became match group its strategy to eat the competition that same year, match group made its first acquisition people media for eighty million dollars a little a year later it acquired meet. Each of these sites brought something unique to the business people, media had niece brands specifically, sure connection websites that included our time dot com and black people meet dot com. Media was really popular in france and lit match, get its tentacles into the european market, but the most important thing was that these acquisitions brought millions more people under them scoop umbrella to match group, was growing, but it was also wary of the competition. Its biggest problem in twenty eleven was okcupid The site was reaching younger agenda exercise and millennials, who are curious about online dating but reluctant to four

over thirty dollars a month for a match? Unmatched outcome subscription and okcupid was free. It like to rub a match his face, in fact, in those is a cast. A lot of aspersions on match matches marketing claimed that twelve couples got engaged today, thanks to match dot. Com okcupid took aim at this brag with a snark you blog post, suggesting that given matches scale, this was kind of a rip off. What's more compared to ok, cuba. Match was old school, its users were still building and browsing elaborate profiles. Okcupid did things a little differently: it had. A user is answer tons of personality questions to get a compatibility percentage with other users. It felt scientific but fun. So in the case of okcupid, it was clearly attracting like a more coastal progressive,

key date, oriented person, I'm enough, tunbridge, ceo of match, America's sort was already unique. Passionate user base that, like answer, questions and like it was a very different way of analyzing. Matching people, as well as assisting people, so instead of competing with okcupid match just bought it. Matches next major target was plenty of fish, a free dating site that was wildly popular in the mid twenty tents it was launched by marcus friend, a computer scientist back in two thousand three and it became so successful because friend mastered the s yo game, when people search four dating and allay or dating a new york. They would see plenty of fish at the top of the results came kaplan during the company in two thousand nine. So my first week,

plenty of fish. We went to an online dating conference in miami and mark has got up and station was presented with a darth vader helmet and it was basically them saying. You're gonna kill everybody in industry in the two thousand and nine profile in ink magazine friend talked about how you work. One hour a day and made ten million dollars each year running the site from his apartment. Marcus said he would never sell. He he reiterated that number of times everybody I'm never selling, I'm never selling. I never selling my wish he, He was making millions any owned one hundred percent of plenty of fish which, by the way, was true to its name. It had three point: six million daily active users and twenty fifteen I'm not hungry again. I think it was a number two,

in the country, so that was like or was huge, an extremely popular in like the smaller towns or small town america. This was obviously a problem for match group arrival dating platform with huge reach that refuse to be bought. but at some point friends position on selling had evolved human. Dinner with match group ceo, Sammy again and by the end of it match owned plenty of fish friend left with over half a billion dollars in his pocket. It was match groups largest acquisition to date with plenty of fish in its portfolio match group now owned for us. Five top dating brands in north america. The morning the biggest dating websites are getting ready to woo wall street barry diller company in november, two thousand and fifteen match group went public.

it was the moment when very diller pulled the rabbit out of his magicians hat and showed wall street. Just how much online dating was worth icy had. Bent nearly one point: three billion dollars to acquire twenty five brands for stating portfolio match groups: market cap at ip- oh, was nearly three billion dollars more, more data is returning to mobile apps to meet people while match owned. The most popular mobile dating up out there, It wasn't bringing in much money that was about to change the. not. Yet the world wide private aviation leader is known for exceptional service for personalizing every detail

Elevating every flight, because not yet standard is not just to meet their definition of perfection. It's to accede, yours all by providing the Some curated luxury experiences: you deserve explore net, yet premium travel solutions at net jets, dot com. tomorrow is filled with quest genes and wonder like what does the future hold any presbyterian. Our data scientists and doctors from colombia and while cornell medicine are combining decades of medical experience, caring for diverse communities with the power of data science. So one day when you come in for a check up even get a better. Protection of what your health will look like in the future to get ahead of a health issue before it becomes one stay amazing today and tomorrow, new york presbyterian

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The in two thousand and thirteen about a third of match. Group's users were signing up for it's products on mobile devices by two thousand and fifteen. That number was closer to seventy percent. out of this was thanks to tender which was created in an incubator owned by. I see that relationship eventually evolved into match group owning the app Dinner still had something of a startup spirit, though it spent the first couple of years focused on growth, not revenue that all change when match group was preparing to

in public. I do remember you know finding out, like oh hey, we have to monetize, I think, based upon an earnings. Call that's jonathan between one of the co founders of tinder and it was like we were what it's like. Okay tinder had followed a common playbook, make the app free and figure out how to make money later. While it was later and match group one and tinder users to start paying up, tinder just had to find out what users would actually shell out for just carbonneau was one of the people tasked with figuring that out in two thousand and fourteen. She was studying sociology at u c, l a and writing about online dating for her dissertation. She was also using dating apps carbonneau had recently matched with sean rad, another one of tinder as co founders. She took it as a sign when he started to message her while she was on a boring date. A few days later, I was literally back and forth.

While all this is happening in the bathroom, live messaging, Sean, the guy either thought I had a urinary tracks, infection or code heem habit or I was just woefully uninterested. It was obviously the third option here she pitched her research and herself, and soon enough, she was working at tenders, offices and west hollywood. One of our tasks she says, was to dig the data from tenders, user service, I hope the monetize. I helped them figure out what people were willing to pay for. She wanted to know what members drop money on a tool that it helped them stand out from the crowd. How often were they going to use it under what circumstances, but they used that were men more likely to use that than women? These were all it's just that I was trying to answer in the back of my mind and to understand the motivation for whether or not we should be investing in her research was fed. Two teams that developed special features. What tinder calls superpowers?

there was the boost which got your profile seen by more people for a limited period and the super like, but you could. Someone to show them that you really liked them, but these features were not free, I'm not hungry. Again. We are constantly looking at various ways to say. Give users away to enhance their chance, had succeeding on the up and that's thing that uses always willing to pay for. And users dead, they spent millions seeking advantage on the up and on subscriptions, which tinder added next in twenty sixteen brought in a hundred. Sixty nine million dollars in revenue and still match wasn't finished their work. Plenty of other dating ups that could pose a threat to tenders dominance. So much group went back to its old playbook competition, no problem we'll just by it in the meat,

Twenty tens dating apps were mostly the same. All the dating ups were tinder, except for what's your one little wrinkle, that's tim macbook in a former executive that in the early years. Hinge was pretty much just like tinder. Pretty used social media to connect users to friends of friends your In our tails, we had a swiping experience very much like theirs. We had profiles very much like theirs. We had a couple of little things that made it a little bit different and we had a little bit of a different ethos and all was well and good, but ultimately, peoples is the same kind of product and they used us in the same way as a numbers game, but hinge, didn't want to be a tender it wanted to beat tender Internally, we were like at war against him that we will act when our productivity, better than tenders, they're, all about invitation where all about like really like human desire lucy more. It was a product designer at hinge in late twenty fifteen when,

more against hinder, took shape a vanity fair peace on tenders role in the rise of hook up culture had gone mega. Viral tinder, it said, was patients zero in the quote dating apocalypse, moments, as we knew it had been destroyed, tinder had reduced to swiping Bad sex and anyone who is serious about finding a partner was out of luck. This is music from an animated video that was part of hinges, anti tinder campaign in it a man looks a lot like hinge, ceo, justin, Macleod wanders, through a kind of dating how scape with signs retraction psych I candy and one night her. Then he walks through a door that says, hinge and finds a bright paradise of happy couples.

Campaign was called the dating apocalypse, the same name as our vanity: fair peace. It was not exactly subtle if most other apps we're just tinder with a twist. hinges. New plan was to be everything that tinder wasn't to be the anti tinder We knew that, if you can really like get to the core of what the young single woman's problem is solve that then going to like have a successful dating products and at the time like a single millennial women. I would just like so tide of who come culture, tired of lake not really knowing a man's intentions, and that was the problem that we really set about solving more led a redesign of hinge to make it feel less hindery. It started with dropping the swipe the tradition. all swiping app. Experience was in numbers game. When did lead to this like culture, where people

weren't, coming in to using a dating out with the intention of really like dating to know someone in getting into our relationship. What we wanted to do was to create a environment where actions meant but they were supposed to mean we knew we had two like slow people down to make sure there really measured with their decisions until they help get. The conversation started well you're like to brag about its billions of swipes and introductions, inch use different metrics good dates per user. became the aps northstar, according to TIM Matt, google, if we were the best at creating dates for our users. We would win in twenty. Seventeen hinges strategy had started to work Is gaining users and venture capitalists were getting curious. They were the only ones always looking for like what

missing. I'd like exerted, need user mete out there. That's that is not being served. I'm enough! Tumble again dinner was like fun. fast and easy and, like everyone loved it, there was a certain kind of user which I think ice. I call it like more intentional, like millennial for wandered like us. and more time on each profile be a little more intentional about who they want to meet. Learn more about that person. They wondered something coup fun and modern s, gender, but a little like slow, unintentional in theory acquiring hinge would help match. Group remain one stop shop for any online dating experience a user could want. You know you hate tender. We ve got the anti tinder, so an twenties nineteen match made an initial investment and hence to years later, about the whole thing hinge

beaten, tinder, it had joined it, but that was good enough for mac. Google It was a strong sense of validation that what we are doing is working and that we have as a promising future, and hinge maintained its image as the anti tinder after joining match group hinge, need some grave even ass. He tells us the dating up designed to be deleted, but match didn't, buy, hinge just to fill out of place in its portfolio. It expected the apt to bring in cash to we needed to make my and so we need to show a return on investment. So twenty twenty was the year when we needed to monetize good thing. There was already a play book for that tenders. Business model is a proven success.

it had made hundreds of millions of dollars, selling superpowers powers, cart and bundling them into premium subscriptions in twenty nineteen tinder bought in one point, two billion dollars and direct revenue. It made sense for him to go down the same path where you can Pay for is a more effective or accelerated experience of finding your next date. Engaging with more people at once getting more attention hinge. Debuted, a new future called the rose, and twenty two If you saw someone you really liked, you could send them arose Moreau every user, gotta free rose each week. The idea was that, if you are willing to part with your precious rose for someone they'd be more likely to hate. You back throws also bum You did the top of their list of people who had liked them might be buried otherwise and arose could also get you act

says to people who are the most desirable on the app so called standouts, could buy more roses for three ninety nine, a pop and, of course, their cheaper. By the does it. If all of this sounds familiar, that's because the roses just hinders super like in cellophane packaging. There is sure to some of these new features, which were, after all, ripped from tinder was a little bit frosty, Lucy Mord, again yeah, it's like with holding and pieces of the experience and like dangling a carrot in front of a user but being like. Oh pay us to get it, and I think that can feel a kind of shit as a user, but it seems like these are vague on taking our money, making a spend more time on their apps than they are,

in actuality matching us with people that were more interested in right. That's jeremy, we're only using his first name because he works as an app developer and wants to keep his job anyway. Jeremy is one of the dozens of dating app users. We talked to for this series he's skeptical of the effectiveness of roses and the other superpowers. The app asks users to pay for, or will never pay to send the rosa some of them hinge, and if I did, I wouldn't think that they'd be motivated to match with me over someone else, but Jeremy does pay for a hint subscription. It lets him see people who have already liked him and that he says, makes things more efficient, but he's not sure efficiency has helped him find. What he's really you looking for a partner for army and many other users? It's not clear. If buying off this extra stuff is working or if it's just throwing me into the void. Sarah

a tariff is another data she diligently uses her free rose every week. I mean upwards for sure. If it's been a year than I've do out fifty but I do every week so, however, along its existed, I've been doing at once a week one person has responded to a rose. She has sent a guy who is thinking about. moving to a city in there for months before he arrived, but in person Mystery was non existent think I kept going out other because I was like on paper. He is so perfect and those god is something here that I'm missing. I've gotta be able to unlock the connection here and there just wasn't- and I think that's the thing you can't at you can't account for, and you can't app optimized for the connection you just can't make that a feature edison wilkinson also hasn't had luck with roses: pensioners that, like My goodness we know, you'll be attracted to these. Any idea.

Given the one rose you get, what they thought about furrows. Yes, absolutely they do. That for sure. Have you paid too what interact with this woman, absolutely yeah for sure, yeah, absolutely and nothing has come from it at all fool me. One! Shame on you for me twice. I need to get off this, but that's not what's happening, People are staying on the up and they're paying on the app in twenty twenty hinge brought in ninety million dollars in revenue in nearly doubled the following year, endless making more from each paying user to in twenty nineteen that was around five dollars per month in twenty twenty two it was twenty five. The value proposition of these premium features is more efficiency, more visibility, more likes more more more

What do they allow users to achieve their romantic goals to find partners? I put question too amarnath Tom Bray, the match group executive. Do you think those other features do give people more success on the up? Yes, they do emulate the obvious roof of that is that willing to continue to pay for it because they see when they use it. They see results. And when they see more results, they want to bite again. Obvious proof is a stretch of debt sounds of users. We spoke to. It seemed that what people were paying for was the promise of results like spending and surely, though, meet the right person. Eventually, I wonder, are the roses helping people find love. Is that what the data is showing it is. It is, I think, there's a start on the earth itself that, like whence, if you send a rules you how far higher chance of getting a response and getting into account

Susan, then you don't that's not really what I asked, but former hinge exec tim at google says: matches money making strategy, while not perfect, is a win for everyone. You just want to go on dates. That's what the product as their deliver people, pay. For these things are getting incremental value, otherwise they would pay for them the rest that their buying are working. The boost their buying are working, the subscriptions that their buying are working there, having a better experience and more dates, If you want those things things, you can pay for them them you dont grape functionally. I can know that we took nothing away from free experience when we introduce them and You know a listener might believe me. They might not. I don't know it's a hard thing to proven, who trusts big corporation, see now if you assume that they are well meaning and good, they want to find you your perfect matt, so that the more they know about

the more perfect partner they can show. You have gilbert. The lawyer we heard from earlier does think that paying more for the aps means bore success. The less but beverly interpretation is that they are trying to find a way to make more money off if you, so maybe if they know who exactly are attracted to you, gonna give you something. That's the story bray under version sea like ok, so the real one is out there at stake nibbling at the edges, but never getting the core. We are sold on the idea that it's just a matter of time. Until that special person sees our profile and swipes right, in paying for special features, will supposedly shorten the process that felt like someone was trying to figure out what I liked, but it didn't feel like they were trying to do that to help me in any way

What did you do in terms of that like that that change of a nation ship to the aps? Did you stop using them just about it? I am I kept using them because it what's the alternative. Let me welcome What did you think I take it that I've gilbert does not pay for gaining apps thing so in his final year ah school, he actually wrote a paper calling match group a monopoly. It's like that mama when you realise procter and gamble, makes all of your household products or that rupert murdoch is the hand behind a lot of the news, but then you stop and think about dating apps you're, hoping, I hope you find other humans to connect with, and then you think, run by a multi billion dollar corporation, trying to keep it shareholders happy that can be concerning. Is this late stage capitalism at its finest anything

and truly everything has a price. The thing that's ex me as our love lives are, we steered by match groups, business objectives, so people are paying for all of these features. and they don't really know if the monies getting them anywhere yeah being a part of match group seems to flattened these services into money making machines, but a lot of people feel like they're on many old, her as to this world that match group rules and man group truly has its tentacles and every nation of the market from black singles to single parents to folks over fifty, no matter You turn your end. The match for attacks so many different cars, but when you lift the hood and take a look at the engine, it still match group. In our next episode. We're gonna go one layer deeper into the system and look at the grow them that are literally shaping our romantic futures. How

it is our noticing the patterns in how the aps work and trying to figure out ways to make them work little better for themselves. special, thanks to doktor Helen fisher mark brooks and Jim osman archival clips, and this episode from CBS this morning, land of the giants dating games is the production of the cut the verge and the vocs. media podcast network, follow a camera I want sui is the shows producer cynthia betty he's is our production system. Charlotte silver fact check this episode Julie, Myers is our editor brandon macfarlane, our engineer and also composed a show steam Nicole hill is our show runner additional support from our tongue. J question access is deputy editor of the verge. The croatia is our executive producer. I'm singular seen kurds and I and lucky me run garage and if you like,

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