Hey, I'm ryan, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you that's right. We're cutting the price of mint, unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month. Give it a try. It mint mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation, an upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply, cement, mobile dot com for full terms. We eat with our eyes and our mouths, obviously but also our brains noon can help. You learn more about that psychological component to healthy eating, new music science and personalization, so you can manage your weight for the long term, starting control of your weight management and join the millions who have lost weight with new? You can sign up for your trial today at noon. Dot. Com- that's in oh, am dot com to sign up for your trial.

today this week on the verge cast our friend lauren good returns from wired. To talk about the surface. Do oh you talk about new amazon, hail of fitness tracker talk about tiktok, apple, verses, epoch. The whole thing come up now on the virtuous the the french flagship. Podcast VOX media flagship, podcast empire so, if I just say it's, the flagship of In short, we see an issue here is very clever. Now I am new, I'm your friend either bonus here, I'm here and take it to strike us. That's great! That's what you want to show some space. We Special? Yes, they lauren goddess you're, welcome mornin pie, I guess that makes me your neutral party. Guess that's what we want notable verge trader. Lauren good is here: Lauren is at wired now, you've got a new show, we're going to talk about that, there's all kinds of tech news. talk about that. I ways starts with two things did

You do this last week, I did. I think I kept the count corrects actually. Who knows forever ago. Twenty four weeks, according the run down here, Donald trump held a bird float well doktor, Deborah burke, southern flowcharts donald trump. Looking a flow chart of when a website from Google think for I have thousand google engineers are going to work on this website. You would log into it, you would do a symptom checker, you would drive through a test test. Results would come back on it it doesn't exist fairly, is trying. You know the division of alphabet that isn't good. You know what I'm saying it just still very small, no national testing strategy. Place. That is a big piece in the covered puzzle. still waiting for that, but there are some other covered news on a site. We always start pitched too quick renown is authorized in fast five dollar, twelve nineteen tests from abbot labs. We got a great piece in that direction: details how it works. the sight after years. Also, this is all the more controversial authorized. Convalescent pleasantry cover nineteen

The questions about pressure being put on the FDA right now. That's all that's on the site. flew season about to start. We got a big story, insight about flew season, overlapping with covert ninety and seemed to monitoring and testing That is getting more challenging when the flu is also in season. That's coming up and then the other big story in the world we constantly talk about and check in on is also the moon, racial justice in this country. I will just admit I am very biased. I was just saying to learn before began. I can barely look at the current I have news about this in Kenosha wisconsin, because I am from racine wisconsin and I grew up, smiles away from where this is happening in kenosha, as where my mom works but there is always a big protests in Canosa. Please shot Jacob taken aback seven times then there was another shooting to protesters died, our peace puzzle here. Is it facebook complaints about group, events on facebook.

simply inciting some, this violence and chose not to take them down, and then it took them down, which is about a classic of a facebook pattern as exists. We're just gonna keep living in that pattern from on time, but I want to start the show by pointing out those are the two big stories in the world is a will change the world after twenty twenty it's all oversight. Recovery were deeply. We care about it. A lot, there's lots I can talk about- and we hear from the audience constantly that people need a break quite frankly with this one. I kind of do too so I'm excited talk to deter a technical one, more fog before begin case, and I started jimmy softened and the sea of yelp airport ass well and entrust but computing It was really go on. Germany hasn't talks, a lot of people since all this began so, The lesson that we pushed him pretty hard one thing I'll cod actually interested to see ways you think of this. Like yelping, small businesses is google is to help in that's just a tough place for germany to be well,

Worry that he's spicy to spices, biases reviews towards the restaurants, because you marry space here in their pockets if you're a small business act like yelp, is some giant of search the you have no influence over in a fury journalists and giant searching influence our heads, problem all so we got into that is very interesting. I think Kind of understanding this antitrust moment requires talking to kind of. one at every level of the stack. Any help is like all right in the middle at such I get out. There was any of you have said this past week some technical. I want to talk about the start with this amazon halo, oh god, I mean there's a lot of talk about. I want fight. Simulator dieter has a surface. Do oh she's on her side for the hardware with right now, there's all kinds of stuff, but the amazon halo seems varies. Leaders is right. Go ahead! I'm sorry Ok, we're to play a game. I'm going to describe a fitness gadget, and learn and neil I you're going to either like you can react and

What's your reactions are due to start in one place an end in another place. Ok, so step on. It is a fitness band that it does not have a screen and has the usual array of sensors accelerometer barometer heart rate. Monitor at all but you're sensor fit bet, that's what am, I only said to react. Thinking like the Earl, the earliest versions of fit that got us and such like a super boring, fit right right right, like an old, fit that during a charge, the rose again like a force or something like that. they work with the american heart association so that they don't just count your steps. They give you an abstracted activity score that pays attention to how your work out is but actually you have two mainly enter your work out, because it can only automatically track running and walking and if you for more than eight hours. It starts deducting your score and they only give your activity ring for the entire weeks that if you take a rest day, you don't feel like it being punished by your watch. Ok

oh yeah, like a less intense version of apple watch treacherously and if, if it to text your sleep is bad. I give you cute little recommendations in the form of these things called labs. Where suggests that you change your habits, are to sleep better. Like could drink it at night or kick your cat out of the room like I need a fitness, and to tell me that I feel like you, could just tell anyone in amerika we, like Thank you so much at night, looking for her great and you should sleep better. If that were the end, we were just the story. Would be amazon made a fitness band, they just made the thing that amazon does would suggest, made a cheap version of the thing that nobody else has. The amazon has won the and harangue next up, there's a feature called body. You take your smartphone anew profit, you're dresser, and then you get down into your underwear and then you stand in front of your smartphone. Whilst it takes pictures of you in your own

where all four sides, and then those of your uploaded to aid of. U s. Amazon's cloud an amazon. Does some calculations on them to take those pictures and turn them into a direct three model of your body, and then it uses machine learning on that treaty model based on extensive knowledge of people with a similar it oh height, and build as you to calculate your body. Fat percentage in such a way that they say it's more accurate than your standard like smart scale that uses the do no electricity between your heels or whatever and approaches the accuracy of like stuff. You can get in a full on hospital or form like you, don't Jim, or something that were you like weigh yourself, underwater or whatever. So this is creepy and I probably should the better reaction than this is crazy, but there is a timeline That's right! If you go back just a few years there was a company called naked labs that was doing

more facing three bodies: france scans, that I wrote about four wired and I think the year prior to that and twenty seventeen amazon actually had acquired a company called body labs that tech crunch wrote about. That was doing this kind of three scanning, and then you guys also very clearly remember, because I think I wrote about this for the verge that amazon did the echo look. That's the thing that I thought of yes, I just took a photo of you in your clothing, not naked, although I suppose you could have stood in front of it wanting to wear some clothes right and you like. Do you remember this? I actually brought out the new york office and, had you stand in front of it and and yet and like to take a photo of your different outfits. C'mon neil, I wear something other than black was the recommendation? Add some color. It was just my mom. This has made a phone call to my mom. My mom was like we were some colors. I think that you were wearing a tie. That day. Is that even possible?

there are tons of hot yeah, yeah, okay, okay, so we'll have to go back and read this review on the verge dot com. Maybe we'll put it in the show notes for the podcast, but it seems inevitable. I guess it's a long way of saying it seems inevitable that at some point, amazon was going to do something increasingly creepy this technology was the look failed roads and it didn't go off like nobody bought one like the return on the investment of put a kiss, in your bedroom and let amazon take photos of you and tell you what clothes like? No one thought that was a good deal. I value to substantially worse deal to be like take some Photos yourselves in the amazon will tell you you're fat like I'm, not why would you pay money for that experienced so the The good news is the images dalstan. I was on servers I deleted within twelve hours. Is it good news that that's just some news that some news it matters that if they kept them bright, but I have to the part that is a complete freak out for me, which is why You have your three

scan of your body- and you can like look all around and see the whole thing there. A slighter a little. You know wider thing on the screen, and you can see your finger up and down on the cider and it will add to reduce the amount of body fat on three d representation of your body, to show you what you would look like if you gained more body, at or lost body fat to the mean but then can I use that in a series of online avatars and profiles that would be valuable like what are you supposed to infer from that similar scenes? Incentivize, you too, like work out. You could see what you would look like if he lost somewhere. It's you feel like me, both direct, and maybe you like, save a series of them over time. So you can see the europe you know you're before in your after. Something is the idea, I think, there's an hour hence be made that maybe in twenty nineteen this would be received very differently, but in the context of this massive pandemic that really

if you are right now and people's idea of like health, and particularly this. This idea that, like you, should just take control of your health and the consumer, civilization of health care and it's it's all. It's all your fault. If something goes wrong is, is like increasingly sort of, out of step with with what we actually need to address and health right now I mean I again my we're just like an old guy. My sense of when or why anyone should send unclothed pictures, themselves to a corporation is just maybe a little bit more puritanical, then I am still gonna, never like you have you have never the value of that right, MIKE I can see why you would build tools like this to give people more control, but what what do we know that all these fitness trackers they all need to prove provide some man save amount of value over the apple watch in order to break in red lights, up This is the set of values that visitors

the things that amazon things is more valuable than watch. It's like it's cheap, its more gentle and has this other feature? I would still homeless people and I've apple appalache the polluter pays. For my mind, immediately, went and where a bunch of people in my mentions are have gone, is people with a body too small for disorder or the might have anorexia or some other self image issue. The idea that you could like, excessively look at a three d: scab your body and like produced the model he fell on additionally, it just like have that be part of your exercise after your fitness app. Is pretty troubling to me stands out about this and they said that there is some safeguards in place. It won't show dangerously low levels of body fat on the scans. It's not available to anybody. That's under eighteen years of age am, if you do do like have low blood levels of body fat in your scan or whatever they do start popping up warnings about the health implications of not having enough

fat. Nevertheless, it seems like that Like that's the sort of thing that I just arab, its trolling, it's there there are lots of examples of these, like fitness, tracking, absent fitness, trackers getting misused by people who have body issues yeah. I think those are really. Those are very, very valid concerns, but I think that I'm trying to get my head around is that those are not necessarily new concerns either because, as I mentioned, there have been he's getting technologies available to consumers prior to this and influential pado from the virtues actually than some really excellent. ready to aunt on how these consumer wearable could contribute to body. Does morphia problems? I think my question is still around, like the timing of it. Like why now and if amazon was going to be offered some real value like I would love to see them include an s p, o two sensor that is something that we really and soon die

very well on a consumer wearable YA, and, unlike that, something that would actually be really valuable at this moment in time. Or is it only what we know based on our reporting experience that products are in the pipeline for like at least eight and twenty four months before something hits the market This is obviously been in the works for a while, but it might just isn't just might be more valuable of at a different features that at this point, it does have a temperature sensor, but I dont think of it like works like in the moment in the safe there's. Some there's a bunch of ray monitors, early hurry, monitors at work like this, where you couldn't like you. Could you say what's my heart right now, but it would like tracker. Time so this thing treachery sure, mostly when you sleep and so on you. Up in the morning after it's gotten three days to see what your bayside is you'll, be out to see if your temperature is higher or lower than you know your normal, and so that might tell you that you might have a fever coming before. You realized it or something final feature. Well, we're escape labs, which is like there go expire. This actually maybe look at that, but file feature scald tone.

when I saw this in the first screenshot epoch, o muscle tone, that's great, now since then and in hand, and none of it now there's a microphone and listens to you all the time and none of this ever gets uploaded where but periodically it will listen to your voice and it will send that voice over bluetooth to your phone and then your phone will do little processing on it, and it will tell you if you are positive or less positive, ever your high energy or low energy or you sound from. raided or annoyed or happy or apologetic or whatever, and it will show you moments throughout the day when its thinks it knows what your emotional state was and let you know, if you like, being a jerk to your family or not. Why? this sounds like someone at amazon read like a p She thesis you now and they like the research and the higher the researcher and they built a seizure and, like most people want yet but like why what is the one other thing

but always devices that I I've long been confused about, is, at the end of the day, going act in like reviewing what happened that day from like a data perspective off, You almost no insight right if you, things are, you are angry at noon. It's like yeah. I definitely no, but what? If you didn't what it's? If like it turns out you that you didn't realize at your trip, the voice was like accusatory or whatever. I knew you back. I, what I happen to and like oh, I was, I was taught in terms of yours. I would actually say that I have found it helpful to have historical data and, coming If the perspective of a woman, one thing that you get asked a lot when you go to the doctors is when was your last period and I'm like? Oh, let me look that up and then there's often like a lot of corresponding data that companies that and down, if no one is,

about their period on the verge cast before I am very happy to be the first person to do that right now by but yeah like I mean that there are things that or you you think about that. You weren't feeling well, and maybe you add, a doctor's appointment and then you look up your health app and you're, like oh yeah, actually, like my blood pressure, was that day or whatever it may be? I do find that to be useful from a historical perspective. That's at that time? Series is longer rather rightly them. Two minute of a day tracking age. So don't I I you a used to use. Subject crap now I just wake up in a panic. At seven, a m on the dot like like what happen now, like pure panic, awake but I used to use cycle and on the iphone and yet the minute the right data, like you snored for twenty minutes, is useless. You get to six months of data. Am I The weird correlations to show up right now I do think that's why I think, like this, like italian

your tone of voice. Is you or angry at three p m and to get that data you have to have an open microphone all of the time. That seems completely backwards me yeah and and also like, if anyone truly is wondering how I sound most days, I'm just going to say stressed wearable to tell me that I'm like we are living through stressful times as amazon's zoom voice. Again it's like yeah. No, I get it. I haven't Actually I can't verify this. I had I had one person dmv and say that this person was a beta tester, and this person said that during the beta test that you had to push the microphone to have a test, and the thing only ever said that this person was interesting yeah. Maybe I was angry that I like was beta testing this I dunno, but like nonstop angry, and the thing is that people are talking to me about an about this tone thing. Is it's one thing for

I don't know me to have my gadget. Tell me, you know your tone is bad. It's quite other thing, for somebody else to be told the tunnels bad like that one thing haven't. I rang the stories. People like all its tone policing and it's like ooh. It is, but the the phrase tone policing and what it actually means is so like fraught for me, just like throw that he's into this gadget, it would have been like it. That's why is without really, but I can't do that and actually asked amazon what about people with different accents or different genders and the responses it's a high priority for us, and I want to quote this: if you have an accident, you can tom, but your results will likely be less accurate, totals muddled on american english, but it's only day one. It will continue to improve it the day one line here: will they amazon also always capitalized d and day, one which

heavy sigh ernie's renewal and it's always they won for amazon amazon care. What is the purpose like what what's a thing is for us to learn. So here is my thesis. Imagine, you're like a dad, and You know you need to go to the gym, but you know what honestly you're not going to and like you could get a fitness band, but it's just going to make. You feel bad because you like art like actually going out and hardcore exercising you just want to be a little more active and you you should sleep better but whatever- and you know you you're, starting to get a little bit of a god it may be a little bit helpful to like you know? get a little motivation to get rid of a few attacked. This is bad, maybe your yelling, your kids and the? U dont know it cause like you're like come, will you just stressed out and like it would be helpful for something to tell you if you're like being caught a meteor kids, like I said, this thing was dislike. It's like the ideal.

Device for like a dad and a nightmare for a teenage woman but that's that's what that's how I see this the answer to all the over stressed amazon executives. That's what I need towns like I'm from the way, I wrote about it too, that it's also designed to be a little bit more of a passive device because it doesn't have doesn't have gps, it doesn't have wifi, it didn't have something at will. As you said, it's has the microphones. Or listening. You can mute the microphone. The microphone doesn't record anything other than steps of your voice or tries to only listen for you and it deletes those things right away. So, like you, don't interact with the thing there is no display It's just like it's insane. He said like, precise mode like you're. Not like I'm cycling now know you how to do that in the app and like you can't, even like, like a triple tapped the button to be like it's time to go user roerer, whatever yeah yeah. So it's a totally passive tracker and I think that that we ask that the target audience are describing is probably

We somewhat accurate. What do you there's a good in the early days of fit bits? I had a bunch of friends who wear regular watch and the fact that different rests in all of that has hit faded away. His people got our watches, I always think about it in the same framework as the first apple watch, which was a mass and like apple, knew it and every booted proud product, like significantly but it didn't do very much or anything very well for the amount of care that you had to give it like. Just beyond charging it in the morning or risks. All the time like it was messy and hard to use and like to remember that the like the homescreen interface, was like fifteen different swipes to lead the fifteen different navigation. Hats incidents like there not value there, but it had notifications from my message and Add some rudimentary l tracking south Value was like very high and an apple, refine the product down to be just those things in one generation.

And now there is an slowly layering in there's an app store that nobody Is there some other stuff it can do right now is cheap piastres waterproofing there's he cagey right, but that core exchange of wiring a strap this battery terrorist and then worry that the life of that battery right no about how to use this computer to yeah. The court changes, always win notifications and health stuff so, if you come in all you have as health stuff, you have to find a target market. If people who want europe, specific version of it without the other massive value of having a computer on your wrist, so the battery lasts a week. So that's helpful, it's not demanding of you other than like you, gotta wear it, and and if you want you, can share your health records with you know, you're sooner, whatever compatible electronic record system, or you can like take part in the John Hancock life insurance. Wellness program or something and get you know weird discounts on stuff?

It's possible that, like the motivation here, is you get like ambient information, how you can improve your lifestyle, you, like start changing her habits, cause you take part in these lab challenges and You get a discontinue life insurance. So amazon is positioning it in a way that its up its positions, its other products effectively, which is we're gonna promise you a level of convenience ends the same time. We're gonna have a tremendous amount of on you and it might kind of rude entry to star but its can improve and you to figure out how to use the word. My my coworker sidney from wired use this word and our gadget lab podcast taping. You ought to figure out the calculus. Yeah that works for you and calculus is how much convened You are willing to trade for potentially you're the erosion of your on privacy and that's like that's kind of what and it was like what a lot of things are re like when you go to the amazon website. Now it is Surely not a great consumer experience and we ve seen

amazon's model of convenience, sort of threatened in the time of the pandemic rate, with like delivery times changing and everything else, but like he used to have to make that calculus, whether it's worth it to you to like use amazon as a service, and we've seen that with some other products that have come up with some certainly see it with like alexa and the echo? And so this like wearable is like, but is also somewhat matter of that all which, by the way, the six nine is utter box. It's like sixty five bucks for control programme. Adders were bucks a month, it's just a situation fee subscription and let us move on there's nothing. I can only once I was told about this now whole show what there's another there's a bit yeah. They do what they do. The temperature sensor on it, and then it can like tell you meditate tell like stop being so. Rest and breathe, that's otherwise. It's a fitbit there are for the umpteenth time. I do not need these wearable said tell me, I'm stressed I now I do

Third, I mean lorna to your point. I received the problem. The product ramps you're very long right, but the opera Unity to somehow engage with the covert test. In tracing it's all sitting here for these companies you wanna get will the drop. Their apple washes samsung, watches for your thing, just like bright, that that pulse s pierre, to write, pulse ox zone. That is just that sensor and then people we like yes, this is valuable in this time for me and I we haven't seen it there's like some glimmers of it out there, but all these see my they're just from a different, and they are but they just see my fair from a different time with different priorities. Yeah. The way that greece, yours, are a sort of triangulate amos data right now and fifth, it is part of a large research programme through scripts, and I know that other trackers, like aura, or a rang are also part of these. These research projects right now is that their taking researchers are taken

all of the other data that they gather rate like skin temperature, heart rate and things like that and to train you leading to say like that, to grab those buyer biomarker, and say there was some kind of variation right now in this data, which could point to acts which could point to acts which could mean that you have covered, but it still these steps away from actually identifying. I think some of the key metrics that would indicate that you're you're, very, very sick, but there on it and I actually do think the hardware is it's going to get. There might not be crucial that these worse still like waiting around aid to get permission to finish the deal that by fit so like. Where are they just gonna keep making, so they gonna keep the software like you fitbit, I dunno how long people realistically expect one of these things to last and I'm sure it'll be supported, even if google gets the acquisition or whatever. But it's just like. What's the plan here I this is the last fitbit before the Google acquisition. I don't know it's weird

I think for Google's is generally happy at amazon introduced a thing to make. It seem like look at all, competition horse here today plan beyond that. Like tunas, alright, we've talked a do about wearables, there's lots of other hardware software, but we have seen a break mukamba. And anita is going to tell us all about his new gaming laptop. I'm very excited about this, we'll be right back, hey, I'm ryan, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate prices, do not hating you, that's right. We're cutting the price of meant unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. My mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation and up front payment for three meant plan required taxes in these extra additional restrictions apply seem at mobiles outcome for filter

support for the show comes from gold peak, real routine, there's a time a day about an hour before sunset, where the rays feel warm and the breeze feels cool. But the hour of golden palace is always gone too soon. You may rekindled the feeling with a pot of gold peak made with high quality tea, leaves it's smooth taste transports you to golden hour at any hour gold peak tea, it's got to be gold. Did you ve got a very special found that Europe only about a cycle at half of YAP, so we have they have sent out, makes to set out the review units for the microsoft. Do oh android phone. I got one of my late because it too, the courier alone. I show that unfocused friendly so grace

The rules of microsoft's embargo is that I can tell you whatever you want to hear from the experience of looking at, and I using this thing with the screen off and all of these screen on information has to come at the embargo time. Rina, one when reviews are allowed to be published we'll be. I am not sure from not say what the maritime is, but I can tell you that I think we all know the thing is getting really some september tenth. So and they want the minor they want this to be screen off silver. Well, that's a real. interesting question. It's it's possible that there is something they would. They would rather have people talking about how nice arteries for two weeks and anything else, that's possibility. It could be they just date. They was that the fold two is out in the world and there's going to be a big analysis from samsung, so they want some kind of information out there and there's lots of lots of possibilities, and I thought you'd. You know you'd have to microsoft receded a water. These thing. That is important, which I think is tat.

In a variety of ways. My very fancy box said it was like of one of the first fifty and I guarantee you there's more than fifty these in the world, my colleague julian, It's meant to figure. Do you think some people got a box? It's like one of the first one hundred I have heard? You say granted at least I'm not one of the first time I think you're just in ways more. What is it? What what's it like? when it's closed. It is very thin. It's really not that much thicker than like a smartphone with a camera bump. If you like count the camera bump and put across the whole thing it, is very wide like if you can hold it in one hand, pretty much, especially if, like you opened up and there's bezels and you can grab it by the bezel. But if you have the thing folded in half its super wide and so like imagining usually go, are relatively narrows. Are you scroll but like having it be? Wider is weird the hinge feels great. You know it

feels, like the same friction resistance all the way through the turn. It came with plastic bumpers. Why? I dunno I mean I I imagine, there's going to be hard to find cases, so microsoft felt like they had to include something. Google did the same thing with the fold. Pardon me as a little tiny bit worried the included plastic bumpers because they it's like people are gonna, be clacking him tion, and maybe that will be a problem. I dunno it's glass in the front and the back. I know that, like some people were a little bit surprised for that, because it so like gray and metal and photos, you don't realize it's glass but its class. You know it's it's very thin. It's it's very elegance. Very unclear to me. If this is the shape of thing that I was or not is, if the your back pocket, it fits better. My back pocket them does my front pocket because it is so wide. It feels sort of weird and my front pocket, but it's like It's like back pocket sized using safe to sit on

an agency for the serene on experience, but notably there's no screen on the front. Are the outsider, the outside I submit that feel safe to talk because there's no screen at all what I'm getting at, how what's the vibe of being done? With that The thing a most excited about this bone is that you can be done with it. You can and it goes away until a new book I mean I don't know. I guess I have to like use it to tell you what feels like to stop using it. But it is it's nice to like to close any really tried a lawyer my way into the sand, and one thing curious about is like I'll. Tell you what trying to like open it up. One handed is a scary nightmare. You cannot do it one handed. You really can nike, you think you'd, like maybe wedge a finger in their like flipped out or whatever nope uses its two hands, which makes me wonder if

that's like annoying enough. If you just want to check something quick and you want to build. These are one handed if I made a start like having it open the way three sixty so that the screens on both sides and start using the phone that way. You know what I mean and then like having my pocket with both screens exposed like so you can see. The tie seems more dangerous, but it also seems, like it'd, be a hell of a lot more convenient. If I just want to pull the thing out and check a text message, but you have your regular phone- is in your pocket with a screen exposed all the time right, but now there's two screens exposed so pretty but if a plastic bumpers have even the panel- I I can't say if I have or not given that kind of experience, but it is compatible with my surface pen. I think it is one of the reasons it's so expensive as they like needed to like have a screen that works with, like the traditional surface pens- and I really it costs too much already. We talked about that before, but it's like fourteen hundred bucks, like man, that's a lot yeah.

The move here. If people have questions about the do they shot tweet it you at back on As as we can address these questions in the review for the mystery on experience usually, taunting new. At this thing to tire, problem that I have is that if we work on the park ass, I could just ask you what with softwares like, but we're on the desirable skipper rat up for the first class, I really miss you guys you're such a great deal that was a burn, I feel that this is in contact. You are you mentioned the fold, there's gotta galaxies. If old, too is coming? you are both excellent product of yours. I sometimes pretend to be approached reviewer, I this video, this chinese youtube video, that's a review of as equal to a kind of replace like may wish. Make videos with words and then just like that, Obviously I don't speak earnest and chinese, but I

so much out of this reviewers like town, flexion. And just like seeing him use the thing why talking who, at all, ethnic noises? Oh, you know what our review should just be music, and then it will be. The the charge showing the halos really If our emotional state, a graph of our emotional state, overlaid over b role of the gadget, that's what everybody wants. Everyone wants to watch a graph of our emotions center interview. The point a to point out here is the zippo two isn't out, but there is a review in from a chinese youtuber that you can go out right now. There's a link on the site, watching this year's through the two things in us, the design seems just far superior superior to that prior felt. oh yeah, for sure the big screen on the front seems I met massive and prevent the harbor and its authors refined it's a little less well off it's a little smoother

in the camera indentation on the screen having a whole bunch. Camera, like just big improvements to sort out a user experience the human feeling of the device just from washing irregular person, for it use it thing now seems like the same deal to me Same set us offer problem same set of samsung stuff happening, at one point, this reviewer puts it intent mode and unlike school maps running what's going on. Sort of his car Can I use my two thousand dollar delicate phone propped up on a dash of my car, to navigate, but does that like a good idea. Which is saving hugh Mcmahon wanna put my phone. There. That me means like the context of all these sleepy phones. Is you have to develop a killer use case for them. Which is even harder when you're at home. Let morning you you have written about this several times like we're just at home. ill of so many of these gadgets is like harder than ever twain,

open. The window for a lot of other technologies mean there's a shortage of chrome books right now, and people are asking all the time what monitor they should get for working from home in their investing in speakers for home and em. There's a lot of opportunity there for the consumer electronics market, but yeah the entire pitch. We ve heard over the past year. it is for the bulk of ice is like for people on the go when you're on the go. When you need something that you can, you can like using your pa to send attacks and then, when you get on the plane, you unfolded at this I want the tray and you watch a movie on it or you're going to bed at night and you don't want to talk on the phone anymore, but you want to watch something on it like it's a tablet or to use it as a reading device or you get to your office and you dock it it's like a second screen. All of these use cases like they've totally changed and I've changed for the we're sable future, and so these coming. Particularly, microsoft had to change its messaging. Around. Take policy we're saying like I'm because we're in having to like

Was it like? When I you know, I take it from my desk to the couch to the patio different methods from like six months ago, like wow, we're no longer road warriors yeah. The thing that kept the the grassy is for all I used to ages ago. In the end gadget era like I used to work from home never work from home. They moved to new york and sang. I always now. we're all at home again and the thing that I remember that, like just in realisation memory was oh. I used to like have a room that I worked. It and then I would leave that room and not work anymore, and now it's like have a phone in the works and chase me all over the house. So I have to like leave the thing, so I'm done with work, pray and like I'm, going to take my flippy microsoft. Computer from an dec two, the patio with areas like no that's the opposite of the thing. I won

very much the opposite of how I want this experience to be, I wanna leave my gigantic computer in this room, close the word walk away and I'm done with work now and I think a lot of people sperience in work from hamlet. They've arrived over the course these last few months at that realization, all the digital, I'll being time well spent screen time features are actually really bad, for most people are just turning off the work. Stuff unless you are like work in a mess, cooperation? That has big metal map managing all of its devices and they ve got all the work stuff in its own unprotected silo on your phone. It out in knox are the best very there or whatever back it's a thing, ozone. It's like a thing like this. The aps, the works space and their edges learning is harder, blackberries hell. Maybe it should be because there is a new blackberry coming motions about that words are going oh mamma, to turn the stuff off right, it's hard

well. You gotta, like remember, like turn off these notifications and like turn off that notification, there should just be a toggle. It's like turn work off and it like runs through a script like turning off a bunch of the stuff that would normally be incoming from work. And because nobody uses different absent different work after it's really hard to enable that sort of thing defect, like do people really want a big stick. the big foldable screen at home, like I have two thoughts on that one. Nobody cared about the no twenty l. Trout can relative to previous big notes, and I think, that's part of it's just really expensive and then by like how it or thought is like the use case of having a big fordable screen is having a big screen, and I'm I ever since thick everybody in the world kind of got head faked by making fun of the very, very, very early the note and then it turns out await know every just wants a big screen, I'm a little bit, attempt to just dismissed Things like the galaxy fold out of hand, because if they can find a way to make the thing

a reasonable price some day. Then it may be that people want a big screen so badly their willing to deal with all of the compromises that go with. It does agree point, but I will also say to you that there is camera and the devices that we're talking about particularly the galaxy fold. The galaxy folds and the do- oh, don't really have great camera experiences, so so at some point, going back to the calculus you're gonna have to make the calculus of whether or not you want a screen. And falls into a much larger screen or if you want something you just like a without your pocket super quickly press the button intake could take a really good photo gear. Yeah. My purse active it. I'm big screen thing is I don't you extreme. But you want this rina get smaller. and so I've always thought that the razor disease flip. That's like that seems much more likely to work itself out that's the thing that you want. You want a regular size funded actually at smaller verses. You have a point.

big phone and it gets even bigger and in the for her, Ebay. Even bigger is just kind of confusing and weird yeah. I mean man andred ever be good on big screen. Centrality screens does like the question never figured out the end. I think part of part of the reason the google, microsoft or kind of like. doing the surface do together in a way that scene, much happier than you would expect is like what we did figured out. They can. for his sake, android has historically always been bad on tablets, but what if it's an android on two very little tablets like what, if like what? If microsoft word on the surface duo, turns out to be the thing right: What is the only way to use excel the way the power users want use excel is, folding android phone

some of your killer up to me. It does not the farther like an army of wealthy accountants out there who are like yes, my baby, and I like, but the idea that microsoft can actually build complete software experiences. It take advantage of a new form, after you I paired on. Will they can in awaited, do has not been able to get its other army of software developers to try and that that's ok, opportunity, I think that's largely why microsoft first, Your phone is not a phone rights. Are all penalties, It's an iphone, but it's a new form factor. because I think the races to get that new foreign factor What is the white comes after? That link is that after that, then microsoft in google work together, make a microsoft, pixel sea, which is like effective surface tablet with Andrade I only going to regos. After that

the other, that middle zone, Israel taught for active little surface? Let me this goes off and it works. Then the real question is between the laptop and the phone. What operate systems are gonna live there? that's what I think it's a lot desir, but first they have to make clear that product. Video android in a way, microsoft. Wants it to be. Productive is even possible organ idea, gregg very far from mean well use to do. I would see andrew ensuring that incur Chrome, o s, andred mash up, didn't work out like at all at all, and you ve got a little service. Go I have a surface go here. I've surface go to buy em hurriedly avenues, image, Yes, there is here how silly real laptop right, that's right

right and then, and then I like to see now that our lives are like are structured by the different sized screens. We use, like you, wake up to a five point, five to six inch screen, and then you and then you graduate to a thirteen inch screen or fifth, in screen for the day or maybe a monitor and then and then you're at your leisure time is like the fifty and scream, which is your tv, and then you have one more at night that you're like what am I gonna use and for me that's. The tenants I guess it's eleven inch ipad so like the surface go, would probably fit somewhere into that sank that structure of day for me and I'm like well, I don't want to use a pen and use microsoft software at that time of night. I want to watch Netflix yeah, I'm not doing spreadsheets at that point and like. If I go out, we ve, I won't take- I have mentioned, but if I may say tat can that's the soul of like a hawk is like the best tiktok device somewhere. Phones, I worry is that there is a picture of the pixel five out there.

haven't seen it? What does it look like? It looks like a pixel for a it. It looks like a plastic pixel like with a fingerprint sensor on the back and the whole deal. Specks have like gotten better over time in terms of the rumours. So it looks like it's: gonna have a good new battery good enough ram getting rid of their face unlock is like man. I don't even know how to feel about that. It's very range? I will say that in the pandemic, the phone that I use more than anything else is actually a. samsung galaxy s, twenty, because it has a fingerprint sensor. It's not a hassle to unlock. I found a sea around. It would probably be that so it maybe they decided to do that, but I kind of doubt it they. They had to made this decision a while ago so too, It's like when you start adding on the stuff you expect from high end picks also higher fresh screen hours Can it be exact same camera with by the way, the same camera sense that they used since I think the pixel too, like yeah, that's the

which is ridiculous. No face unlock the processor. be like medium faster. Maybe not technically fast as fast and the benchmarks as the pixel for like well. How much did that cost cause? You can get a one plus eight for like seven, eight hundred bucks you can get a galaxy s, ten on sale or referred for. Probably six hundred bucks, you get a pixel foray which is excellent for three hundred and fifty bucks, so how much google thinks that they can get for pixel, five, which, for all intents and purposes is like a meter, found a good camera that doesn't have quite as nice specks as other mid range funds was not quite good. Cameras is an up. That's that, could it be exciting see what are they just cancel, the pixel as a phone interest, sounds a camera sure I mean really, MIKE I mean. Are you asked matlock like? Should we actually map that out

Why was just talking today and the newer cannon cameras and shared directly to google photos which is very interesting to me, like I'm, an icon person, but could also show that but like what? If they just said, this is actually just a camera with a cell connection, unlike care, this instead of whatever moderation when you haven't you'll a really excellent photos and it'll integrated like wouldn't happy, just a more interesting product for them we saw this time verses, another sort of weird pixel phone, that's pretty cool. They tried that that it was the clip you have nothing was so weird like automated in the photos, weren't decorate sampling, but there was the galaxy camera, which was literally just like a mid range point and shoot with a that was like the ultimate in samsung like two engineers from like different parts of the company, I ran into each other in the kitchen and they were heather

role of carrying their new projects and they ran each other. They fill up into the air and they re another ground. A pilot like, oh, my god. What did this there was there is story ages. just ages ago, when, moreover, rocker came out there like motorola ipod phone. It likes you jobs through motorola is an iphone like minutes later he announced the ipod nano, doesn't ancient history, there is every story. The time it was like a much better version of the rocker is to buy it but now in just take it to the back of a motor oil, a razor if he would just like get a better product and like that was the samsung. I'm saying what, if Google engineers it to like that, like this is the coolest camera you can get just think of all the

like the frank and gadgets we're missing out on right now, because engineers are not running into each other and kitchens Google's campus or other short doing so. Just like round table zooms with various engineers fan club to cede horrible ideas, tik tok, alarm, clock, god wake up to a different like viral tik tok every morning, without great actually because you just euro sound overnight renwick. I need this to stop yeah. I think so. For Google is. How can we put out a fondness? Differentiated the last three of them have been in mid range forgettable funds and is if the rumours are choosing you're saying like camera is not getting better. It's killing different. If the camera hardware is the same, the technique is the same they're, making different looks out of the algorithm, which is interesting, yeah but they're like they're they're, parasites, they're, they're, tiny differences. I don't think that that is all the As much as we like to give him credit for n n n video, I mean wheat is being taken.

we live in a video world. Now in that video, it's not getting any better. How much would you pay for it if I say that. I, like a sick girl camera with great forty video, but when I got it like a Google camera that has yeah great forty, video takes great, so photos oppose immediately to give all google photos and lets say it has like the titan. I'm security chips are keeps all of your ear multimedia data, secure whatever it may be in any biometrics used to live on and what that's pretty much at you're not like playing games on, I you're not answering emails on it. I would happily pay like for shipping and that's a pie, but I have a kid we we take so many voters voted that we have maxed out. Our first a thousand image. Google smartphone library like what yeah. We had certainly start a one. That was a very funny. Oh my god. Do we

from Google photos. Extreme ease agree. I read that limit as like. You do, and I said that's great yeah I mean like we take once a year. that's january, just by taking a ton photos like having device it's more dedicated is great, especially if it has slightly better image. Quality, thin, your phone and so do you can get there the recent proposal. It maybe that's. A total died of a product but at least it's not another mid range pixel that no one's gonna buy. You know me like at least different attempt to get google into your pocket in a way that is smart one. If they took it like one step further and made it, the creators far so you had like three point: five millimeter headphone jack, so that you could plugin except yo accessories, it did run instagram. You could upload things It ran instagram tiktok, like all the major platforms. Of course, there would be like an easy youtube integration, because Google youtube and what, if yeah, what? If that's, how they marketed it? I mean we just walked yourselves all the way back to this. Having of africa

basically described a galaxy us twenty, but with an income we're just one year, creators are using iphones anyway, cassettes right like I just think that Are you gonna break into this market and differentiate, you're soft? And, if all you really have, is your camera Is it still all they really have in a We're experience that some people think is better but like on them like for most people not having a samsung browser and a Google browser is not a reason to buy a phone. That is what we talk about, because we're annoyed all the time, but like ever there clearly choosing samsung funds in the market. Maybe you just stop stop saying it is the thing that it is and start saying it's something else and just see what happens. So. Here's what I want, google to do just start just just call them nexus is again don't front like they are. meant to sell in big numbers, don't front like you're unhappy with samsung the next time we talk to one of their,

it hasn't been like hey you sent in five years. It would be a market success that we get up its every mark, success think about it, because, like it's good to have like an exemplary phone like they just admitted, We just want to make a nice andred found that we want to use that exemplary to the market and can use to develop andrade on and because I will sell to you if you want one. They just did that lower expectations radically. Then there would be like a group of people who like bought it cause. they like having that phone, that experience that feels cool and nobody would About about an ever again yesterday, the big it scarcity around it basically and selling goods, for these spoke soldiers, the problem. I spent a billion dollars or three billion dollars how much they spent uneasy. was yesterday. I was pocket whatever they do Do that in an effort to make this art once again. The virtues devolved interests are complying with the pixel, the two more funding necessary experience, five to which is a horrible name, a hundred

here too swain, ahead, headphone jack, that's honestly, dealers and bring it up. God bless them. and assist four and seven with the flip camera, I'm just out of them for competing in the camera lens wars. Now the foot, the camera has three three cameras. We talk algae wing it's on the list, but it's like the best phone of the week. What does it tell me coming? So it's a phone like just imagine if then imagine the front of the phone you rotated, but the back of the fao states, I'm holding it horizontally and in front of the phone you rooted vertically, but the backstreets horizontal, so that there is a vertical voted for you and then there's a little bit of a screen, sticking out to the side like a wing, not two wings, just like a wing- and you just get like a little bit of an extra display there, like you've, seen like slicks, vertical sliders right, where, like you slide the phone up and there's a keyboard underneath, there's even been. Nickel, like you inside the foot, there's like more display underneath this is like used rotated and of us

like sticks out the side. God, I'm raises lacked it to me this is a credible and it's actually being used in this video as cheaply as device like an index cheap, yes, device which is per eddie. Much like what it looks like it looks. It looks that clunky that's good sites like that. It's great I'm here for our innovation in funds. We got flip the Foley phones, swindling phones. We have found a puppy camera lenses. Let's have it people we should. We spend twice Let's talk about the duo. Lg makes a phone right now that you can go with a case that has a second screen on it with big gap in a minute, the algae, velvet, forty fine, and then he put this screen on it. Any experience if I try to deal with second screen is pretty not for what you can do it. Therefore, you

color, the algae wing and just imagine a world in which we are constantly switching for phone form factors and the software worked this bay, asterisks and the software work, and that we can live in that world and therefore that said to about that explicit delineation between screams right, which is like what the do. Oh, to appoint, but like this algae phone, I'm looking at a rate now and then just know: there's there's no fluidity to this there's no expectation of fluidity. It's just like you have to screen smacked against each other and perpendicular format. We made it, on a t shape, I lied more and more and then I say, come out of this, I expect you using analogy wing I want to, we gotta take a break and come back, but before I do that we have to talk about flight simulator and deter you my promise. Then then we talk about this gaming laptop. He bought so sua. Walk me through your situation. I thought about I'm sort of sold my arm in the process of selling my surface pro ex cause. I don't need

t enable blonde battery life arm based windows computer. Maybe nobody does yeah. I bought the laptop that Monica chin axon laptop of your recommended, which is the asis rog zephyrs fourteen got a p screen with a pretty good not if it does not have a webcam, which is delightful, I'm gonna start playing pc games. Again, it's been a super long time for me. So if you have, commendations of what games to play. I will put them on my list. I, Tell you that the very top of my list is all the half life games cause. True story. Never So I am really excited about it. I'm also excited because, like I want start participating in like some of these, like viral moments that are happy with games. Now others makes our flight simulator, where, like everyone's playing it they're going around it it screenshots are taken little videos, it's really easy to takes videos and screenshots off of games now on twitch their fight, all sorts of weird things.

like towers that reach into space? Could somebody had a type of some databases flew into the hurricane cosette like compatible real time. Whether data, which is amazing animals, can play the hell out of four guys. Have you been watching any the phone? I stuff? Yes, I mean I have a p s, four ceramic ready to do it. I just haven't done it yet, but I've been watching video after video of this game. It seems amazing. It is incredible, I'm so like Fact that we can just have. I don't know it's like these games, so much easier to share and spread little clips of them and like get a little snippet of joy out of a video aim that doesn't require you to like watch a four hour, twitch stream or be super into gaming like I could never play fog eyes for the rest of my life, but

no love that game and get a ton of like joy out of it just from watching little clips of other people having their little goon get knocked off of the thing in the vienna weird version of world that as far as this issue a fortnight, I'm never going to get a fortnight. But I thoroughly I watch people before I'm really gaming at all these days, guys or ever for that matter. But I do appreciate games as an art form, and I appreciate your enthusiasm. You don't need to be a gamer. That's the whole point like you can go. Look at like the weird stuff, that's happening in microsoft, flight simulator and like it makes your life better, makes you happy. I dunno I love it. I mean the clips I've seen shared on social, are pretty cool, the fights military think. Does your new laptop play flight simulator It better be very unhappy to fighting. Anyone to me is super interesting because that that be its intervention kind. much, but right now the barrier to entry to fight some enters a pretty high, right and you need a powerful pc and fast connection. I ve been

hours, anybody playing it without flight control. Like we had a story last week that, like flight control, accessory is the ruddle, the rudders that drastic swimmer selling out. So, if you are plain fights and it like, that's crazy your company and you make like rudder pedals for a pc unit alike. Flying off the shells. What what's this is your and my that's too, is that barrier entry is very hot, like most people cannot play a flight simulator until it comes to never well, but right now, there's all the stuff happening in this virtual environment. In your sharing out of it, it's a window to it, there is a threat like air, saying, there's, the games, amazing all set for the errors, are hilariously there commissioning units on the top was leading to her feet. Just the funniest thing to look at and to see him like that little that

interface between what some people are able to you and share out to the internet. What odd everyone's able to experience to me is super interesting. Alright, now maybe By giving up you should I recommend it replace flight. Simulator will all opted. Everybody swish demand. dumb things I'm willing to buy right now is way higher than you think. It's just a retail therapy. So I'm going to get through it break. We have a little bit of Tik tok drama, a little bit of epic. Try talk about rebecca, support for the show comes from gold peak, real routine, there's a time of day about an hour before sunset, where the rays feel warm and the breeze feels cool, but that hour of golden bliss is always gone too soon you may rekindled,

the feeling with a pot of gold peak made with high quality tea leaves it's smooth taste transports you to golden hour at any hour gold peak tea. It's got to be gold, this episode is brought to you by shall define that's the sound of switching your business to shop, a fight, the global commerce platform that supercharged you're selling, harness the best converting check out and same intuitive features. Trusted apps and powerful analytics used by the world's leading variants. Stopped leaving sales on the table. Discover why millions trust shop, a fight bill, grow and run their business sign up today for your dollar per month, trial period at shop, a fight outcome, slash tech, twenty three, long before we scientists other stuff just what your packets yeah

for bringing it up. So I have a new podcast for wired. It's our new flagship show and it's called get wired. We launched it late July, so we're about six episodes in and it's been really really fun so far its weekly. It runs on Monday mornings and some topic so, have really run the gamma. Our very first episode was about the neighbourhood watch app citizen and in particular, we kind of when the demon the mind of a twelve year old crime chaser on the app which was which was pretty fun. Fascinating. We ve talked about the ways in which rights activists are using different kinds of technology, including the are to expose the abuses going on inside a factory farms. We had an interview with bill gates, we're to be talking about the back, school fiasco in united states so or just trying to highly. I guess the best of what, heard stories in audio form two gatesby you're talking like wired importers and building out with their debt.

yeah, so I would say that occasionally we we do plan to do high profile interview such as the bill gates, interview which was conducted by wire, died at or a large stephen levy. But it's not goal if it was not to launch an interview, pod gas. The goal was to find really compelling stories that Have rich audio elements and then find ways to tell those stories but, as you guys know, from producing lots of things, podcast videos in particular at the verge. Production, takes a lot ray and sometimes, as your reporting a story you not necessarily getting like that audio video right off the cuff, like you, have to go back and figure out ways to tell stories through those mediums. So most of the show is s like talking to fellow wired reporters and sing. Like tell us about the story you reported out, and then using that audio too, to illustrate the story so

an example is that the he had to run to have the the the people that the activists ago in like invade like factory farms and you're you're talking to, what are and you'd like just played a short clip of the this horrific thing that was happening to the animals in the fire what, if it were just on the website, I probably wouldn't click play. If it were, you know, and on a video or something I would have skipped over it or something but like in the course of the conversation, fell like waymore visceral then than it otherwise would have that art really well. Thank you, yeah, that's the goal and in line with the citizen episode, for example, is one thing that I think to read a story about twelve year old crime. Chaser Another thing to actually be in the car with him and his mom since he's not even old enough to drive as they drive around his neighborhood south of san francisco end and you to look for things that are here according to the citizen, app and here sort of like why?

does this and what excites him about it, and also what does it mean for a future in which you know there's a sort of all these things. little surveillance, no around right in the form of smartphones, so yeah, so there that were true to take a dive into are very strange, present present and Julie, even stranger, future, in ways that fill compelling through audio thats. Like my best, for it. I guess I hope you listen, I'm really excited about it. It's been a lot of work, and a lot of fun do a twin on issue we have a saying others. Why would I actually wish I had a clown, but I have to say guys. By one request, I got through my around the items on twitter through emails to this day. I have now it's been how many years since I left the verge like two and a half years people say: can you please year twin videos again well

I swear to god, and so I think one of these days I have a camera here. It's not a great camera, but I have a camera or have some lights. I think one of these days I'm going to have your I'd like self produce. This just for fun it has to do. Is organize like a fake beef, like you make a twin video for wired and then we pretend to be really mad that you you stole it format and create this. I know I'm saying that latin podcast, if you are someone out there, whose engineer to beef for public Please you to hold our aid, Oh we do have had some policies does eater vegetables here today the day we're recording the tick tock sorry is even more out of control than before. So, if you'll remember, trump, initially issued forty five day order, so, sir a twentieth, tik tok, had to sell their has been a lot of reporting. That sort of the insight that deal microsoft initially wanted. A small stake then takes action. When a bigger stake, then trump said

Gotta pay me a little bit on the side, real sketchy and no one has ever really figured out what that meant and microsoft put out a statement saying we will compensate it's it's treasury, which is just one I'm just going to tell you. I have not talked to a single businessperson who understands that accept it made trump abbe fine Then he issued a new order. Extending airline by another, five days. Ninety two clock november mid november, now stolen. All of that is hanging over the head of this company oracle has been afforded to be very interested. The administration is very cosy with oracle. This is a real thing where thousands of donor the house fundraiser, as he does things, oracles emerges a front runner to the last today, tick tock, ceo, Kevin Myerst quit this. Basically was, as does note

if you don't recall tick, tock ceo, Kevin Meyer, was the guy who like launched as the plus and then didn't get tapped to be the next ceo of disney and so rage quit and ended up going to tiktok, it's more complex, that happened based on importing out apparel. Here is very clear. He did, I know that he wasn't getting that doesn't seem job. He found the morning the chip. I was getting job, that heating get the job he has done he quit in there. And it turns out julia bursting at sea. Monsieur say he was not involved in the talks with oracle. Tiktok, just the guys and cut out twice you like out these deals do come with. What's holds, man provisions. So you Acquire company law was a key man when we acquire he could happen the the company, and you have to make sure that certain key people come in here telling Meyer you prevent those people in that prime means you're you have to stay there and work for a while and you're like. Wanna, be one hundred dollars guys I don't want to be when a larry alison's guys like,

must be a ceo right and I can be brief question That happened in an on of that happening. What announced there was parted microsoft on a deal of my talk because of E commerce seems whore, I'm just going to say that is the worst idea. I've ever heard. Turning tik tok intellect having experience for walmart stuff? Don't do that agree? I would say that If the three of us were to go in to our credit card history and tat all of the amount of money we spend on crap. We sought instagram ads. I think I know who would have spent the most, which would be me. I knew I thought I think now I biogas. Actually there has been curtailed. Oh yeah I'd.

I started producing takes part worth. Yeah sounds like walmart has really been trying to push a lot more into video ray and so I guess it makes sense from that perspective, but I would worry that they would effectively be the qualification of tik tok you mean like take this. I did take this idea. This concept said already like working on a different platform and then and then try to sort of add your twist to it in a way. That's just not really gonna work, because the kids are already in one place right. The already like doing the thing on the platform. like a warm or body, would suddenly become what is Walmart owns like voodoo or something also walmart old voodoo to fandango in April, and so I bet that like I was in charge of voodoo at walmart was just unlike hang out, and his book

It's ok like hey! I I what I could do to keep my job. The quote quote from march CNBC. The way tik tok is integrated. E commerce and advertising capabilities, and other markets is a clear benefits. Creators and users. That's what They want advertising. I come in, seems rest takes off last, but an eu states are actually see the trumpet demonstration over the ban order, saying it trump had not shown tolerable harm they, this is all stuff I want to ban was issued. No one really knows what the theory of the says against talk, except that is from China and if you're gonna happen the case was nothing you too have against we tat was trump administration in spring. Hence ten cent, which importantly owns half of everything in hollywood, just a real thing included This is my sight way, including forty percent of epic makers of fortune, and the unreal engine, so many streams cross that fight between epic fortnight unreal, an apple,

jazz- says continue just like operate in high gear bribing there. At the moment, we we have There's a lot always as I would have only appstore Just ask you both this, though, it's strange, the apple seems so content to be the villain cause, definitely acting more like the villain and they should be yeah. so their statements are all pretty aggressive right. Their actions are all pretty aggressive, like this fight is so the epic did a thing they enable the payments and then apple, so that we're going to cancel your developer account, including the developer account for unreal engine, which is a different, technically different company than the there's epic sarl and then epoch, which makes one their tidy and spoke epic fathers tomorrow, this obvious emails came out, temp temporary restraining order, side follow you speak the point of a temporary restraining order is to maintain the status quo so that neither We can do something that can't be undone

and so the judge granted the restraining order with respect to unreal engine because it, Paul kills. It all worked out for unreal engine. That is a bell can't unring, that's harmed. You can't undue where's with it. Once a fortnight lawsuit, they can calculate some damages that can reinstate. I can get back to two elements: but the move to go after unreal is pretty agro. Their statements about the staff are pretty aggressive, get eight. They pushed on word press to add in at purchases. different for she other developers to add in at purchases it just seems like apples and in a place where they don't seem sad. They did. They don't seem they're trying to do the right thing, but it's so complicated and we're all gonna work through together there making. It seemed very much like this. Is our phone We want to cut of everything that happens on the phone and that's the price of the sun, and that is just a goat they just seem more aggressive and more happy to be there

guy and so these narratives than otherwise. Well, it's it's. It is incredibly compress complicated. I can't help but wonder if apple is just thinking about winning the war and not this particular battle so, like ultimately, apple has one of the largest appstore as in the world. It's the only way that you can currently get applications on apple products, the need to maintain ultimate control of that appstore maintain the wild garden right, and so I wonder, if going after space with elements of that app store, such as unreal engine or any kind of gaming in the Google stadia we've talked about, or I'm sure you guys have talked about two or something like payments? Is part of that prodigy, but also, ultimately, some kind of headache. It's weird, there's there's a way which system is to be like look eyes,

We set these rules. We got to apply even Lee. It leads these fourchan situations where a try figure it out, but for now the rules are what they are. If we make an exception here, it's gonna be chaos, so, like we're you in this thing, but we are working to work on it to figure it out and make everybody happy just bear with us. But these are the rules and it's. These are the rules. You made all kinds, money on our store because you are on their for free and we're gonna play everything equally and if you are just follow the rules and do what we say than were happy to have you back like the tent, of those statements is like remark. The aggressive to me was fascinating, I did like a pretty. Basic newsletter on. This is like that, remarkably aggressive town, like it please maybe in the court, but maybe a place like a general audience. That's like gloves there I found,

understands that, like you got to follow a contract when you, like click, a czech pack serve like you agreed itunes, I don't know whatever, but it's very off. Putting I think, to a developer audience and steve. Balmer but his hands, the young developers developers developers to elvers developers apple shouldn't, take developers making stuff for their platforms for granted. They have been able to do that with the iphone for a very very long time, but it's no guarantee and the thing you dont know is like it's like a missed opportunity, cost apple. never know if there is a developer, who would have made something awesome before the iphone? but this stuff I was just like that- seems like a mass and maybe not even consciously just like subconsciously and when did some else for some other platform and like that stuff can a creed over time and

when it does, you eventually like you, eventually go over a hill, and then people start thinking of you the way they thought of microsoft in the battle days of microsoft, for like people would like spell microsoft with a dollar sign for the ass ha ha ha of it. You just saw it everywhere and apple could like it could like lose that pr fight for that very important constituency, and it can be very damaging for them. The road. I completely agree with you and everything you just said, and I in particular tend to think that Anyone who has expertise and software who joins the argument and says well look for as long as softwares been distributed. The distributor has ultimately taken some kind of tax, rightly back in the days of shrink, rock, should shrink rap software boxes sold on retail shelves of used to go to him by in stores like there was

so attacks on that to write and so and apples caught is actually relatively fair. Compared to that, I think that's about analogy. I think that the way the software is change, in particular, the distribution of software, has changed over the past few decades. Slick warrants a different look at the way that these kinds of you know relationships is revenue. Sharing relationships are structured. And I do think that all of this is pretty bad for developers, but I think, like the question than you I was asking was like: why do you think apples being so aggressive, not necessary we like, and I think, like there being aggressive, because at the end of the day, what better way to get their messaging out than to have a giant fight with epic coming one of those popular games in the world. Versus like having this fight with hay camp which, like you know fifty. people are aware of. I shouldn't say that, like a lot of people are familiar with base camp and use basecamp, but it's like not the same level of argument, and so the epic argument actually serves as a vehicle for them to like

a strong argument for their their cases outside of congressional subcommittee hearings, but I do understand why ever wants this fight so badly like? For the last time, things started getting a little bit like harry with developers and the thirty percent tax, above all the blood you enter, you feel schiller about the switch tied to subscription thing, unlike the change from well, it's thirty, four the first year and then you can be fifteen percent after that, and that is really tried to like completely solve this. This problem, the thirties attacks and you can't have trial. and in up- and I was a mess you know like well look subscriptions and saw that in some ways they were actually ahead of the curve there because, like subscriptions, are everywhere now, but they were accommodating in a certain way and they still did it in a real app way but like they saw that there is some sort of discontent and they tried to address it time they see that their discontent- and their answer is no the rules. We made this platform it's ours and we get our cut. Yes,

Emily and twenty six team and add add the absurd ruled out these changes led by phil schiller. They were, I think, on some level trying to appeal and help out developers, but ultimately the changes that year were about serve, apple. I mean it was also the year that they rolled out search ads right in the app store and what they were doing was laying the groundwork. For fundamentally, what would be their own growing subscriptions business, which we've seen pretty much quarter over quarter year over year since then has just completely grown. yeah sure subscriptions, maybe your great for the developers who want some kind of recurring revenue and they want the confidence now occurring revenue and they get a better caught if they are built able to maintain that for a long period of time it. Ultimately it's it's also all going back to, but not all, but its there's money going back apple there. Yet on a consistent basis, the viking- it's like I mean I hate subscription apps. I hate them I've got you mail plain on my mac so and all my gmail, my counter in Now I got a new mac insult, airplane

to my cyril code and I didn't pay any on any more money and at night That was such a normal thing to have happen, but now in two thousand and twenty I was like this is great. The guy already paid for this I paid for it. It's done, I'm done paying for it now it's over and that pushed. subscription from apple instead of doing things developers wanted like of great pricing trials. off. They suggest make up. Eighty subscribe all was they get a recurring cut of recurring revenue? It wasn't. We made it easier to operate on our store or to build, business. It was just a way for them to get charger credit card. More often, fundamentally, is where the iphone has gone. where every interaction that you have on your phone, everything you do on your phone crews some money to apple in some way, and I think that's why they're being this aggressive, because it's it's existential for because I can't saw anymore iphones. Could everybody has an iphone, has an iphone right until the five g upgrade cycle hits or

until there are glasses head like they're, not gonna, get a big wave of new purchases they're. Just like every two years. Most the people who have the two euro life iphone get a new iphone. Or now at the time of covert, they don't get home right inside the amount of money or try squeeze on the platform at every corner it just seems like they're, not being, quite as honest about it as they could in a way that would justify the aggressive actions are taking us for now, for I did pick the fight right that they absolutely picked the fight, but I I continue to think they pick the fight kind of thinking they were going to win and they might the way they think it's gone right away her. This is gonna be weird because his to change? Where say this disclosure of taiwan appstore stuff, my wife works. for an app store, she worships, therefore, facebook

I have started a petition of god, which makes the oculus headsets no longer called oculus. Apparently you got through it. I did yeah like there's, not much to say. Not much else happened after that restraining orders again appointed restraining orders is to maintain the status quo status quo is maintained. Well, yes or no, because we tabled fortnight as like, already getting worse on the iphone like it already feels like there's fewer people on it. It doesn't have the new content, guinea, content marvel marvel. I also terms of any kind of new everyone's. In a number of you will wait for funds versus plan, a vcr consuls low right, the uniform says this is so well play to them whether they reduce the risk This is google, just doesn't seem like a google fight is as again. If I sooner or anyone do I'd like we're. Gonna get to see what happens with apple, but Would they want to be in this fight is aggressive examples there. hasn't been any news on the dual front dozen years or not,

you know, I mean there, they also kicked him off the entered store, but other than that, it's been relatively quiet, but there is a there's a trial there too. That's so at some point yeah. I mean it's a it's a restraining order hearing. I think they asked how long they need to get ready for trial and apple's answer was like ten months. So we got a ways to go: yeah there's only so many blood percy guys say cancer. Sufferers thing even begins we ve gone ways along learnt, tat. You re here, you know I guess you saw a gadget lab. Yes, we have to pay that. Why did we have the brand new one get wired that I'm hosting every monday It drops and then we have another podcast that's been. I think we ve gone for at least for five years now called gadget lab echo has that every friday, with Michael glory, senior editor wired and that's our more consumer focused gadget, focused podcast, so check that out as well great, and thank you so much for having me on this has been really fun to note. What are our verge expats are, are always walking back in the cesc whenever you

You can treated us. I met reckless dealers at Babylon more and is at lauren good. Dearest, gotta, newsletter called processor. First comes us newsletter, Alice, tiktok, epoch Facebook, stuff keys, restaurant, the interface. You can check that out. Come such interface, I will return to say with the individual s right over the chair. just a lot going on we'll see soon. Rock'n'roll wear masks, Hey I'm right reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation. We decided to deflate our prices

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