Welcome cast the flagship broadcast of the laser disk resurgence. I'm an friends ably pierce and I am breadbox kiosk near my house, outside of a CBS. I confess I have never done this before I've watching dvds, since, like I had one of those tv easy vcr, combo things and backed anyone. Dvd, we had was clueless, so I watched it like sixty five thousand times, then my family was a pretty early netflix house, so we have red envelopes coming and going all the time and somewhere along the way I gave away my dvd collection and just when all in on streaming, there was a piracy phase in there too, but we don't have to talk about. That but now here I am at the red box, because this kind of feels, like the last bastion of the old dvd era, like I'm. Looking at this dvds of asteroid city in the super mario brothers movie and she's, in which I definitely won't do

cocaine there, which I might do- and this just feels like an era- that's ending we need a com which is the name of netflix, as all dvd delivery service is shutting down for good this week and quick pierre say on that front, actually is it's still a dvd subscriber put all your favorite movies at the top of the queue right now, because you get to keep everything you have when the service goes down. So do that as fast as you can, but with the agon and streaming still really ascendant, even though it's kind of a mess right now I just wonder: what's going to happen? Is physical media just dead? Is it going to have a Come back like vinyl did where everybody suddenly buying albums again, I really don't know, but I'm very curious about it. So in As part of the show today, I am actually going to talk to the person responsible for this key. Ask I'm standing in front of that's bill room, the ceo of chicken soup for the sole entertainment which now red box as of a year ago here it turns out some surprisingly strong thoughts on the subject after that we're going

which gives a bit and talk about metrics, the numbers we see everywhere online, especially around video views and what it means that everyone reports, those numbers and none of it really seems to have anything to do with anything all that is. Coming in just a sec, but first I gotta pick a movie here rain. We ve got a bunch of spider man's john with three plein which Think I knew was a movie and tolerate this second, oh, they have dungeons and dragons dungeons and dragons honor among thieves ran dvd two dollars and twenty five cents or I can buy it for three. Ninety nine and buying the dvd: let's do this alright, taking this home here we go. This is the verge guess seems like the era of automotive advances, with the all electric pulse our two now would faster charging improved epa, estimated range of up to three hundred and twenty miles and advance safety technology expense.

Ah inspiring performance combined with luxury design as standard the time is now the all electric pollster to book a test drive and order today at Paul star, dot com welcome back. I gotta movie I made at home, and then I realized, I don't own a dvd player anymore, which was problem for a second. But then I realized that's why game consuls exist someday, I will own one of those little small discourse ones, but for now I have an old xbox one and appears for both of which disk drive. So I am wired up ready for movie time, but for now, let's talk about the future of those disks. Red box is probably the biggest brand left in physical these dvd com obviously dying. This week, blockbusters gone. I don't let anybody goes to best, buy or walmart to buy movies, anymore rate and read books, just kind of seems like them

last game in town and red box, you got a new owner last year, called chicken soup for the sole entertainment which also owns the streaming service, crackle an popcorn flicks plus it has been production and distribution companies, the company paid three hundred and eight me five million dollars for red box last year, which a lot of people thought was totally bloggers at the time and still do frankly, but bill rehana, the ceo of chicken soup, for the soul, entertainment is convinced that physical media is not dead or at least is not dead yet and won't be dead anytime soon. So I called him up. about why he thinks this is a good business and why he's betting on discs, even when his own company is in the streaming possess, and me most of all why he tried to dvd that come from netflix before it shut down. One thing: you should before we get into the interview bill, uses the terms of odd and s, father, a bunch and eva. Means, add supported video on demand and S. Bod means subscription video on demand, Yvonne, you pay with ads

as for debate with money, producible just wanted clear that up in case you haven't heard before anyway, let's get at it what was interesting to you about red box in the first place, Oh really, many things. Let's start with the brand and the the very loyal customer base spread out across the country that hadn't probably hasn't fully migrated to the digital world for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is some places. They don't have bandwidth it's enough to be able to download movies and watch them without a circle of death. You know to maine to make the experience miserable in some this is their just laid doctors and other cases they can afford the internet, or I can afford the kind of internet. That's required to be able to do that. downloads, their movie lovers, therefore, their entertain lovers, so they their highly motivated, did to consume the stuff tat. We have

I bet I can go on and on and on about this. There were many things that, with a starting point, was the brand, the forty two million people in the customer loyalty program, the beginning of the fourth, into the digital world. The ownership of a very large transactional, video business, which is very hard to start and then the key switch in my mind some day. I hope to prove this would be generators of significant cash flow. If handled correctly, that could be the cash flow machine that allowed us to build our digital business out of the next decade. The audience is one that I am particularly interested in, because we ve been talking a lot about who physical media is for in twenty twenty three right and I think, a lot of people that audience and say that audiences, dwindling, really fast its it's smaller than it used to be most of those people are going to one way or another find a way to get into the streaming era. So we're just going to kind of leave that audience behind and trust that they'll eventually catch up. You went a different way, or maybe you

That's true, but there's money to be made along the way like. How do you think about sort of who that audience is right now? Well, I I think it's the people I just described people who are not tribal or have access to bandwidth who can where did is another category of smaller, but it's likely to grow of people whose hey, wait a minute, I'm not going to say quality and of a digital down I know that I would have if I had the physical desk and I had all that additional capability to see things more crisply. I know some people who won't watch a bond movie unless it's on a dvd sp blu ray, asked me to top notch because they want to, feel every bit of it. This is early for this this conversation, but at some point this probably takes to turn that e books took back to physical books, that downloads and music took back to actual albums where people started

differentiate a little bit and yet had this growing cohort of people who thought you know. Quality is important too, and I get em much higher quality picture a much higher quality experience. If I actually I'm the physical media, which is so much more richly pact within for me oh and then there's all this other stuff that comes with these dvds that, You know you might want to actually seen you know, so it's in all the extras that they get, that you don't get in a digital download, very often for us, is really about giving you access? two first class top notch current content from any studio at the lowest possible price, the earliest and ecosystem after a theatrical but you can do it had so there's something there were we're meeting in, need that's a little different than that. Collectible need that's for sure, right, yeah and I think that piece of the kind of windows doing that u v ger into is part of the thing up

your strategy that I think is so interesting as it seems to me that you know you have crackle, you have chickens saw. You have read box. Ever what else is kind of out in the streaming industry fighting about content but he's making chosen, adding more and more money throwing it into their own platforms. It seems to me that what you're building is this sort of every step of the way distribution pipeline good script, rather than saying we're going to throw a bunch money at David, Fincher you're trying to get in sort of every step of where content is is that a fair description is of how you think about. This is, and I mean look, we saw it and have always thought that understanding what consumers want is most easily achieved by watching what they do and if you want to watch what they, Do you have to be in that first line of consumption so that you see when they do and more things I loved about and still of baron breadbox us? Forty two million people in the customer loyalty programme give us a group of people

who we know, we know who they are, and we know when, when their places- and we can learn what they like and eventually artificial intelligence can help us, I think, figure out how to serve them stuff on home screens of art of our networks that are tailored to them. By the word, I will repeat the word eventually, because we You cannot do that today? Nor can any one else, the shot you yeah, yeah everybody's everybody is doing a lot of voodoo that, I think, doesn't add up too much in the latter case is not yet so. What was that part of the thinking with red box that you get this very early sense of what people like and what the successful and then that informs like and, upon you know, crackle months or years later. Yes, so from one perspective, that's what it was about and you'd have to think about it. The key asks trends, actual video, the fast business, the eva business. We have some subscription stuff, but it's not really our focus. I don't think that's a particularly good business right now, but

having so many different places at people interact with us as they consume. It is very valuable. It is a great bit of information and other people don't have it actually other than amazon. There really isn't another company with as many connecting points with consumers in the media space as us that we are a very unique beast and that's all intentional. That was really what I was looking for when, as as I put in his pieces together, we haven't taken advantage of that yet David we haven't yet, integrated all this stuff. In a way that we, johannes smartly, take advantage of what we can do, but we certainly set the stage for that to happen so that, because we have that early access all way across all a wide number of things. So that was the plan is a flip side to this too, by the way, if you're thinking about creating content and you want to make sure that, as you created, your doing, it and let the least risky way having all this information

about what is consumed in these various ways like what works at the chaos work works in tee vat, where it works and eva what works on fast, that informs you're thinking, about how you will commit to content creation, but a lot of times cause you're the first dollar and allow these places. You have superior economics to people who otherwise were created, then you have to go through your system and you get a piece of their revenue. So if you believe, If, as I do, that, ultimately, content and distribution are irrevocably and completely tied to each other, it is that kind of aid system that allows you to actually lower your risk and create content over time and get the most money back from it. Any camp Wheatley blows away the theory that an s five standing by itself is a good idea, cause it isn't, and everybody's now figured that out. We've we've done this. I will I be talking about this for since two thousand and seventeen

that the asvab my business was a disaster waiting to happen. Giving physical media keeps being part of that cohesion overtime, I mean if you, if you play it out a ways more people have broadband doing system may be changes so that there are fewer ways to get stuff, but it still kind of you. You get the twenty dollar downloads instead of the dvd, rentals and stuff like that. think there's a place for physical media in this long term? I do it Only because experience tells us that inertia. Nurse ism is the most powerful force of all and changing people habits is really hard to do now. Covered broke a lot of things right. It did force people to change their habits. One thing it did is in itself a raid, the digital transformation dramatically, but if you looked at

are at our business and understood the assumption we made about what would be successful in the physical space. We said we expected the red backs. Key asks with a full, followed the content that EU staff prior to covet would do thirty percent of the business, and it didn't do that nineteen before carbon, with that very low expectation, we were highly profitable. Why? which was why I thought this was a good idea that even if two thirds or more people had changed their mind about consumption and that's a pretty aggressive assumption that two thirds of the people have changed their habits. That would be amazing. Then we would still be profitable at the. He presented- and that is further enhanced I'll say for lack of a better word by the fact that we have a couple of other businesses that make the key asks

profitable at a lower level than that from things other than just rentals. We putting screens on top of them and sighing digital out of harm advertising we have a business, that's built around the service company that services are red, backs key ass, does the brake fix of them and does the merchandising of them We now know that service for other big key ask honours, every time we had one of those customers. We bring our costs down. To service. Our own k asks to the point that I think by the end of next year, will be close to zero net costs. actually run her own key asks from a servicing point of view and that change the business entirely. So if you, a one dimensional view of this question and said hey, dvds, we're gonna go away over the next ten years, how you gonna handle hairless. I would say: ok great, let's start with the fact that I believe it's at least ten years because of the way of people's health,

but let us also be smart and think about the ways we can make that less relevant to our success. Let's use these key and more diversified ways, let's bring down the costs through the service business, let's figure out what the right price increases might be over the course of a decade to help make up for some of them lost you, know customers and we look at it in a kind of amalgamated basis. You start to realise a its relevant that physical media is going away, but perhaps less relevant than people thought. When we bought the company which is why we are crazy, but not for the reasons people thought that's fair. So if that's the timeline you're thinking about, do you think netflix is not to shut down its dvd programme? Now I mean if, if one a ten year time horizon there really jumping the gun here, I think if you, There is a wholly different analysis. This is so a tiny little thing in a gargantuan

business, that's fair! It's not strategic! It's it's more! Like a pain, you know it's it's not like it has. if you in any way affects your core business, not at all, so the kind of them in the better question is: why keep it now? The bigger question is: why did you to sell it to me when I tried to buy it because I could have created a whole bunch of synergies out of that business dinner. So why? Why didn't they sell it to you? I don't know they just didn't even return or phone calls asking really we told them with all we wanted, but they just, I think they just want a gun. You know it's a distraction for them sure what would you done with it. Well, I don't know that I would have bought it, but a state if they return, I called when I would have looked at was. Can I create racial synergies and keep the costs lauer and drive additional revenue into this portion of our business. There's a whole other question working here, which is

Who else is in the retail and media business? Can you think of any companies like amazon, for example, that might be in the retail, a media business and have found ways to make as to businesses, work incredibly well, together people tend to have some, we're very single minded view of almost everything and ask you if you kind of challenge that single minded view dinner, they go off. The rails said the colonel. Lose it, but you know there are examples of the retail business and the media businesses working very well together. There are examples of them now working at all, walmart and voodoo was not a good example, and no no in the walmart they just are there, not a media company. There are retail, that's what they are. amazon, god knows what they are. There they're just awesome and everything

do it scares everybody to death, but you know they're really good at what they do so alex. I dont think designer anything, inherently contradictory about being in the two businesses. If you know if she had been unfair couple of other companies, I've learned of that are similar. This company called go digital. I, which some company I like very much is in both sides of the both in retail and media. They make it work, so I think it can work. That's a yeah, I think part of the reason. I'm I'm curious about kind of the the hypothetical of what you would have done is, it seems, like you know, goes back to what you said about redbox at the very beginning right, it's it's a really good brand people know it. There are a lot of people in the program and it seems to me that, if you take, the idea of this is a very accessible brand that gets new stuff. There are a lot of ways you can go with that. You could just do read ox by mail, and I turn off the economics work for allow. The reasons are describing, but that's the thing you could do or there are you know you could start selling

movies to people through read by edges. There are so many sort of splinters off of this thing, that is red box. This good brand, the people know and are used to interacting with especially if, your bedding, that physical media is a thing, is going to be around for a long time. That's an increasingly not competitive space, and I feel like if you wanted to sort of branch out from red box into we just want our own are all of the ways that you get acquire and watch physical media. You could have big ambitions there without a lot in your way right we're I, when I that was part of the reason to look at the at the netflix dvd business too. I mean you know the world if we had gotten the app to unity it? We got the opportune to have a conversation about it. We would have analyze, whether it made sense, we never got to that point. I I just thought there were a lot of inherent possibilities in that. You know tat when you think about

dvds and blu rays in particular, like I, I grant you this is getting pretty far in the weeds of physical media here, but I think I was thinking a lot about the vinyl thing there today and in prepping for this. Because it's telling to me that we didn't go back to cds and we didn't go back to cassettes. We went to final because that is the object. It feels better like if you're going to buy the physical thing. That is the best version of it. It sounds the best it looks the coolest it has the most kind of cultural history, like that's the one, and I wonder if we're, if we're going to get some of that same stuff for movies and tv shows are we are we gonna get a new format or weakening go back to lake like his vs gonna, come back? What's your sense of blue and dvds kind of staying power over this next decade. Earthlink, it's boring, the idea that gives you do what you do, you know what I can laser desks back. This is all way of winding up to say, can you please bring laser discs back? That's when I don't think so. Part leaps, because

no. You ve got an embedded base of equipment that quite extensive wherein the dvd can be used. And the blue aid can be used. And, of course, there are a lot of turntables, even though they weren't really running that much people had amended. were dying to turn him back. I you know to get it back and get the idea of the quality of, and I guess the feeling of of that so yeah. Do you think there are ways we can make physical and digital stuff? act, better overtime. Like I remember years ago, talking to people who said you know, if you buy a dvd, you should also get the digital download so that you can watch it on the devices. Don't have dvd players, and especially now I mean people watch a lot of stuff on devices that don't or can't connect to dvd players, Struve or their ways to come to put those pieces together. Yes, there are, but I don't know if that's a game. Changer, but I think it's you know an incrementally better world few, who can use

If you can put those two things together? I think it's good, but I ate the things that drive the the drive, our business and now that's you're asking me a generic questions. You know why You think about this as a general principle. I always think about it. Wasn't me to my business. I can't help that. That's what I do and there you know so, when I think about from up thy business. His point of view but drives our business is the fact that, where the the least expensive way to get first run movies, that's what drives our business and get him right very early and get him from every yeah. You look at only any of the streamers a single one of them. However, you first run movies early from every student. They can deliver theirs Sometimes I get lower one other guys, but nobody can deliver everybody's except we can or you can get it through,

for its actual video, but that is so much more expensive than for a large chunk of people its prohibitively expensive. So I guess the question then, would be, if that's the thing right, if you boy it, although it out and say that the thing that we have is cheap wastewater first run movies. What are you press on customer experience wise to make that better? Is the answer more kiosks so that its quicker to get too is the answer find ways to make it even cheaper? Is it find ways to convince netflix to put its stuff on dvd, so people can get it like? What's what's the next turn? If there is one in in how to do that even better. I think that the thing that drives the business is always content, train making and getting the most content as quickly as possible is the key and here's where the window word, which you've used a few times already and I have ignored it comes to the important word sure you know, because getting an organised winds strategy from the studios,

that consumers know what to expect would be a very good thing for everybody. You want to make this experience better, make it clear to people when they can expect to see these things may right now. The media business has destroyed itself between taking television, in breaking into five thousand pieces and making it impossible for people to figure out where a watch things an end through layer after layer of search to try and find stuff between that and act at the window and strategy of the various studios are completely. They look ad hoc to me look like strategies. They look like it out just now. Let's see what happened to you, that that is not good for the consumer. We have not made life at her for consumers in either of those ways and good, solid. Understandable windows, which are you know you don't have to be slavishly adhering to them, but which generally are followed, is a huge service to the sumer in terms of understanding when to expect to see something, it's nice

boggling to me that this is not return faster. So the best thing I think we could do for consumers is but by with a strategy that actually everybody abides by. So they know when to look for thanks Lies there just kind of like wandering wrangling. I dunno know when does this come out wise barbie out this week, oppenheimer out this week, ordained the theatres at the same time, why they, six weeks apart, I don't know universal and wit, and wonders. Ok, great do do you as a consumer care which studio made the movie. You want to say I don't think so date which you care about is what is it but do you know how to find it? I know I agree and actually love that example, because I think the bargain homer thing was such a phenomenon that there are going to be a lot of people who want to get both of those movies and watch in the same day, and that is going to be so stupidly difficult for so long. It is it's so we ve got bar becoming a key. within the next few weeks which were excited about asia or not, but I

I come into the chaos until november, or maybe even later I don't even know at this point. You know it doesn't make a ton of sense. It's it's, not smart, but this is part of the coded recovery the media business, trying to come back to a new, a new approach with covered. Driven so much digital? You know take up it changed everybody's you, no kind of focus in the media business to digital digital digital And now, as we start to realize, will wait a minute. It's really not that smart only have one way to monetize your movie. When you should, you could have said that you know, or sex or whatever it is. He then one dozen cannibalize, the other. In fact, a lot of people like to watch it and all those different forms its adjusting to that and changing who's in charge in these studios. is really really taking the time. Because when you really, I write down with this- is just a fight between different parts of the same company. as to when they're gonna do things how

it'll put it in the theaters where's it gonna go to acts as a T. Tv is it. You know, you've got a different guy runs Tiba that a guy runs the dvd business right and they have other yeah right and then there's another guy who's licence agnes stuff? You know this is like free for all trying to figure out who start is it didn't? studio is going to go through this in their own way and then there's just redbox kind of kicking it increasingly on it's own, I mean does it does it feel like this is a competitor if space at the moment like what what a weird world. Let's lift, do you think that's going to change anytime soon, if our, if we get kind of a pushback towards some of the stuff you're talking about, are you going to get through competition now I don't think so, because the physical presence, so you have to create to be in our business, is so vast and we have thirty thousand key ass sprout across the entire united states. Give god leases with

people you ve, gotta, be able as service these things. We're not gonna have any real competition. What is interesting is the growth of chaos in general, and the country is, is amazing to me, I'm a nurse chaos pop up all over the place. That's good for our service business cassettes, lots of customers for us there, and I think, that's good. one of our great businesses. Alright, thank you. This is. This was really great and really fun. I really appreciate you taking the time it is my pleasure nice talking to you. We gotta to take a break, an organism about numbers, big ubiquitous meaningless numbers will go back to the era of automotive advances with the all electric paul start here now, to charging improved epa, estimated range of up to three hundred and twenty miles and advance safety. Technology expense

It's all inspiring performance, combined with luxury design as standard the time is now the all electric pollster to book a test drive and order today, at Paul star, dot com welcome back. We talk a lot on this show about numbers what it means to go viral and how creators use numbers symmetric to understand their business and this what it means to be a person when everything you do, and post and sea has a million numbers attached to it, and all of these we're seem so, if not mean less than at least really hard to make sense of lake? Can you compare you to view to a tick tock view to an instagram view, is doing not even useful and how do you make sense of any of it when everyone knows at this point that so much of it can just be gained in one way or another? Well, our friend John her

over at new york magazine recently wrote a column that basically made the case All of these numbers are nonsense. It really resin it with me and cut it made me wonder what we do now, so I asked come on the show and talk about what it means that the internet is just swimming with numbers, most of which have nothing to do with anything. I also grabbed alex crowns because We can talk streaming numbers without Alex grants, let's get into it. Herman walker, the verse cass looks randomly Alex is here to hi. Alex said david jaunt: can you just serve run down the thesis of your piece for somebody who hasn't read it like. Why did you write about why twitter views don't make any sense, I mean I'll, take any chance to write about weird metrics. I feel like this is. This is like a trick that I use that, like a few times a year for my daddy now where it's like haters a number out there. That doesn't really make any sense. If you expect that number two people. Everyone also be like. Oh wait, that's without me. The thing is that way of lake

measuring everything in ways that are cut him off and manipulative and misleading and serve all these different purposes is becoming more and more a part of just like the fabric of daily life online like everything that people use in any social network in a lot of non social context, just in their software, is served counting. What they're doing and return it to them with higher and higher numbers that are meant to sort of suggest that you or their sort of men to inform your behavior or make you feel good or make you feel bad, and like you need to do something else: you're just surrounded by these numbers all the time and it's just as background part of your online life, but there's a lot of stories start these days. There was a ridiculous tweet and was it the talk. Karlsson thing so donald trump and took her pearl some kind of counter programmes. The republican primary debate with an interview on, took her curls and show

the people that haven't been following this is now, I guess you would say, hosted on x like exclusively yeah he's just blogging and posting it straight to straight to x, and the interview happens, the debate happens. The debate gets, white twelve thirteen fourteen million views according to nielsen wishes, its own can of worms fox, come down says I can offer ten million people watched us? If you count the streaming in something that no one really cares, Donald trump comes out and says hey. Actually, we got like two hundred and thirty million views on I interview, which is nearly as many people as a voluntary, the entire united states. Venom are kept going up and up and up eventually it's like three hunter weighing people- and you know he put his pretty loose with- is sort of you want to revised.

found a lot of trump numbers, that's where we're kind of used to that. But in this case he was just actually citing a metric attached to the tweet under Tucker carlson's video, and it really did say that the time he wrote the I recall it was like two hundred and sixty five million fused fur. What was like you know, has given a lot of interviews and he's given interviews, tucker Carlson. This is, like I'm sure, very interesting to quite a few people in a variety of different ways. It is not something that everyone in the world for everyone, more than ever voter in united states access is likely Emily completely implausible. Everyone knows that's ridiculous, but it's not just you know kind of like a notoriously missile in public figure doing this. It is the platform saying that's what happened. Views word that we're supposed to interpret like in some sort of way, two hundred sixty five million, a big number that you know it exists- exists in the world. So what about you that doesn't make any sense? That's the kind of thing that you would expect to hear

like taboo. Let her out brain talking about how their chum box videos are performing an instead. It is like being cited the former president, directly on still very influential subtle wherever I'm sorry just gonna, want why won't back from their like that, can't be real. Of course it's not twitter internally tracks, video of use and if you use the twitter for mac, client. You can still see those views which elon musk had removed The real number views on that was like twelve million or fifteen million the same as the republican debate nilsen ratings, which again a big number. However, that number is tracked after I believe two seconds of video playtime any on the screen which, if you ask someone what it means to watch something no one's gonna to honor in unless they work in advertising or something one's gonna be like oh yeah. Well, if you look at it for two seconds and then well past it, you watched it like that's the opposite of watching it. However, that is the twitter video.

Somehow twitter is now measuring something that is fake, that that is lake, they times less rigorous than that and telling everybody that some people are saying. Something- and you know it me it's silly. It's a specific example is also how the entire internet works right now there are just these most numbers absolutely everywhere. There all bullshit and slightly different ways there all kind of lake reno, fundamentally bullshit in the same way, but they're all these like different stacks of invented measurements, their frequently compared to each other. There frequently touted for marketing their use to just sort of like contextual eyes. Conversations about something I mean. Is that true, or are they mainly used to sell ads or like convince people to buy ads right like like saying, oh yeah, we got three hundred million views, don't don't look into the numbers, but we got three hundred million you're going to get three hundred million impressions. If you advertise on this, Tucker carlson show

That's absolutely the logic of the like gradual number translation, but I think what we heard about it now is that that sort of on its face of sir but everyone just goes along with it number mission is bleeding out of just you know. The sales teams at websites and social platforms is now just like something that everyone talks about an phantoms talk about metal all the time they re to manipulate metrics. Even if the mattress or a fake till I get their people, now seen or in some cases paid more. You ve got you unless kind of making the case for his untied the existence of his entire. Platform in the relevance of his entire platform, but going on to blake double down on this after a bunch of people pointed out that yeah this, for example, trump tweet, this kind of ridiculous in the other day, he was suggesting that three billion people amongst see long tweets leg, just the twitter blue long for

content is, is viewed by three billion people, which I am sure in some Extremely narrow way is true, like that content somehow produced combination of people, scrolling kind of lake loading of moreno internal The eye calls calling upon these posts. I'm shirt, sure that number of impressions to borrow the arab world, here: it was somehow kind of generated and logged, but that it has no relationship to the reality of how many people are engaged there's something seeing something or or lake and taken something in pointed it out. There are like to cite The sweet one is the sort of nonsense. Advertiser metrics we ve always had right in every company has their own special metrics that don't make any sense to anyone. an essentially mean nothing you don't you it been doing. This loudly were twitter, like he talks a lot about like regretted user minutes yet which they, what on earth does that mean? But that has nothing to do with sort of my life. It's just like a thing may

say to seem big and everybody has numbers that they want to make big or small as you so rainfall and that's all find a good. But I take your point about the word. Views to me is like what makes this specific things so interesting, because one of the very few comparable things across all of these platforms that we have all the way down to lake linear television on your tv in your living room is we call them all views and their content is different. The way there Liver is different. The way that their measured is different, but we call them all views, and so we compare this like it's this apples to apples thing and they just honestly have nothing to do with each other What netflix thinks is a view is so diametrically different than what you two things this view and what tik tok of you and what twitter thinks his view that we're not talking about

remotely the same thing, but because we use the same word, we like obsessively pit these things against each other all the time and it's kind of weird, because nowadays you know thirty years ago, these metrics were actually difficult to measure. Right, like you had to sit yet to have a little box on your tv in your house. That was it and maybe the cookies could sometimes get it, but nowadays everybody is logging into the services or logging into youtube. They're logging into twitter they're logging into netflix. It is very, very easy to get actual super valuable super like need get into the nitty gritty. On these tricks and they're still going for the broadest most useless metrics? They can announce that sort of wipe. The central funny thing about this to me, which is that er yeah? I guess we're talking to an authority or timescale now, but if you think about A linear, tv or print publications you had some data about how many people were seeing or things you have lake.

Circulation number or your subscription numbers than you estimate your circulation numbers. You have the number of people in a certain market. You have all this, but you don't have this direct access to like how people are interacting with your stuff, so the people making media had this need till I figure out what was going on. So you end up with things like nielsen, where people sit in their house, as in analog what they're doing and then you do some statistical work on that. with an estimate for how many people are watching things and an advertisers use that number in you and what you end up would like a flawed, but trains activists standard that the people work with yeah. At least it's like more or less apples to apples like everyone at Nielsen always agreed like it's not perfect, but it's at least sort of directly applicable from thing to thing, and it's close enough yeah, but now that we have all kinds of it was by the rise of like you know, digital media brought along with it. This promise that, of course, everything is going to be tracked. Down to the second we're gonna know so much about what people are doing. Anyone who is written on

for a long time knows that late you're publication knows how far people, scroll and every article that you write and if the numbers are good, like you just sort of ignore that you just pretend that people actually finish your articles. But no one is like this. The amount of information we collect directly now is huge, so people making media have incredible amounts of information. There's total audience surveillance. Thing that you do or consume digitally is not tracked down to them this, like microscopic level, and yet we somehow collectively no less about. What's going on, everyone trees, this information that they have as like a trade secret which has the weird effect of making it basically useless. If it's like array, we're all gonna agree on trapping standards. We're going to do this in a transparent way. If there was some totally alternate history, where everyone is sir baling their money, the very closely which has been old can of worms too, but then sharing and comparing auditing that data in a transparent, then you end up with like a very different kind of world where there is like a diligent images.

Things that media landscape, black people would know more about what people are doing and that would create all kinds of different incentive. demands and someone be worth, and some would be better how it for now you just got nothing. We got everyone has so much data terror, petals of audience data Then it's just like closely guarded and shared in me, most misleading way possible in tiny little fragments when netflix is ready to be like we actually tracked. You know three, billion watch, minutes fur squid game, which is the most we ve ever attracted. We started tracking this last year and is just like what is that, for me, Obviously it's for marketing in its this sort of lake, flexible,

It's a killer way to say that yeah, we are not just doing bullshit impressions were were tracking time and we wouldn't do that if it wasn't a lot, but it still doesn't mean anything, so we just sort of like somehow managed to take more and do less with it collectively, which is Raynaud kind of a nice common story online these days. Why do you think they treat it like these trade secrets cause? I totally agree it is it because they think that you know the numbers used to be bigger than the media that was like a much more a smaller landscape, and so a show could have twenty million. Veers has really big deal, and now the biggest shows have like ten million I don't be like oh yeah wednesday is the biggest show on the platform right now, and actually it's got like five million euros or something I think that's, really interesting question, and some of it probably just comes down. Take instincts like oh, my gosh. We have. This thing is

proprietary it's ours? There is a real tendency. I feel it across the large corporations, but one that I have observed more directly and tucked up in his their record on to distort of treat everything like a trade secret like you might as well, and you end up with these interesting collective problems Do that that show it further down the road but also, like you said, with streamers in particular, they ve got com, a different problem from let's say facebook, which is routinely wrapping up just absurdly high numbers whenever they attack metric to something like one hundred million people watch too video yesterday and the day before. Ended it for that works for them they can be like yeah. That's amazing! What do these big numbers there there is? It turns out there's twenty billion people in the world and we found a bunch more of them and they all use facebook, but netflix, like you said, is tracking the stuff from a very early stage, very data focused company. They used to inform all their decisions and are also I'm sure, seeing like ok, we ve licence

beloved old set com when in its heyday, was getting my twenty million per annum viewers every week upon any other end, we just Was it on here and like it's doing, okay, but it's not doing that or our new sitcom that we just released that everyone's talking about is getting a lot of great coverage, actually not that many people watch it and that's kind of flipped over time like there are genuine huge streaming heads. It's not just like a media illusion that I mean everyone watches now. That is how people watch tv, but the president was had a long time ago. Just like well we're not gonna area it's like rush into some sort of mutual surveillance with tons of disclosures, and we're not going to do that. If we don't have to, we don't have that need that people used to have when they but nielson and dependent on nielson for selling advertisements in getting their ratings to know how many people are stuff. We know we would love to know how many people watch all people staff bite me now they have. They have our ways of guessing, thereby may seem

I'm with not knowing how many people are watching like this, that it be max, reality shower whatever, like netflix, is fine with that will. This is where we come back to my kind of like humber nihilism and like kranz, you- and I have talked about this- a bunch rate- the the case against forcing all of these streaming companies in particular, to share a lot of really undressed and a bull apples. Apples numbers is that one thing it will do is make. the obvious, how many shows don't work rate and its great for the people who are making shows that are bigger? then you think it's actually bad for the people making shows that are worse than you think and not doing well, and it can like that stuff can have real if on people's careers, and it is anyway because, like netflix knows, the shows that don't work and at cancels, though, shows that obviously bad for pupils careers but like if it starts to be out there, like people used to be petrified of ratings every day, because if, if the rate the ratings decided, your career and part of me wonders whether what we need is bad.

Her more understandable, metrics or part of what we need is like many many many fewer metrics, and maybe this place you come too, Really, nothing means anything if we all can acknowledge that nothing means anything, maybe we're actually in a better place. I think the metric system don't mean anything even for the companies themselves, because they think, like at least two different shows in the last year, who did successfully were said to be successes. Other networks showed, like you know, or like one of them, was in the top ten. For now alex for the week it premiered, and then they immediately got cancelled. He got cancelled pretty quickly. One of them was a league of their own, which was like a very successful show for amazon but very expensive show for amazon and not nearly the hit. They had hoped it to be, and it had this long, slow cancellation death that other one was warrior. Nun which was like another show did seemingly did very well and then was cancelled the same week at like premiered, and so they left all those fans who you know. That was something John you mentioned. Fans are like them

most meticulous they're, they're, better than nielsen when it comes to figuring out ratings. They are so good at figuring this stuff out, and they were just single numbers. Don't mean anything because you published all your numbers which say this and we have all the stuff. We tracked and says this and you still went and did it. So what is numbers and it came down to- is expensive and they didn't wanna make it right like they didn't wanna do a third season, because third season would increase the cost of the entire staff in the contract and everything that hero licks does it and that is the real reason and it was like. Okay numbers are to blame, while this is something where I'm really kind of torn, because I work in an industry where people watch your numbers at work and see how many people read what you do matters, and you know it determines all kinds of things about your job, and also your sense of like what you're doing and why? But there isn't it world where streaming companies are like collecting and using this data, or rather data in general, to like cigarette women,

and at streaming companies more than at the social media companies which have to depend on really direct relationships between like the urgent matters. Advertising or something that's all very, like very, very direct extreme companies, the airship metrics in and theirs- an internal ratings. They serve as like a weird proxy, sensible proxy for, success in a way if you're making tv but what they actually survive on mostly for now. I guess this is this is changing, is subscription numbers, that's the actual metric that matters and so netflix as like our it. Well, we can't tell All that precisely this is their version of the old measurement problem. What is deriving subscriptions like me, have good ideas we noticed that people stick around after they watched their slowly sign up and then watch that, like they have some stuff, but what the ratings do for them instead is to serve as like a way to value things that don't act that aren't actually assigned a value in a very, very direct way, and if they're going to do that, I tend to think that, like more visibility

is better and more transparency about with a member's mean because the people making this shows the people watching this shows if they don't have any information and netflix does there at some sort of disadvantage if you're a viewer, that sort of fuzzy you're like talking about random stuff again If you are creating shows you have less leverage to light, ask for more money or you have less warning about when you're gonna get cancel or you our missing part of the story if you're showed does get cancelled and you suspect that it If you buy a lot of people, but maybe there's something else going like is just being withheld and in the context of the strikes in hollywood, generally writers and other people who work in entertainment. They generally just want warrants

actually cause the information exists and it might be kind of bullshit and it might be collected in a way that isn't super transparent. But if it's going to be used to make decisions is better that people who are trying to make this stuff no, it is not ideal that they have to obsess about it. Like that. That's a problem too, if there's a world where netflix becomes hyper, metrics focused in a public way and becomes in that sense more like youtube, you have a different set of problems, but Oh, you ve also got a system that is somewhat more accountable and where, in some small way, people who were doing creative work have a little bit more of a sense of lake where they stand not worth nothing, especially when you're arguing about like pay. That is determined by basically metrics, which, again to sort of like back way way up, are all fundamentally made up. You have to come up with. Entered for measuring things. You have to apply it with some. of rigour like there is every time you see

a number that purports to measure something down to like the most fundamental measurements. You should wonder like how it works apply that a thousand times over when you're looking at something attached to like a piece of total social media content, but still, if they're used they matter and if they matter, then I think people creative people should probably have more access to them. Alright time before that, shall we talk about your phone situation for a minute here, because the the the asked audience needs to know. You wrote about the iphone fifteen, which I thought was very smart. We ve discovered in the course of doing this that you an iphone twelve mini that is literally in the middle of exploding, as we are recording. This tell us about your phone life and why you're getting a new phone this year? So listen, I'm going to get a blogger for coming up on eighteen years, you're out loud excuse, but I love the many small, it was never very good. I get the better

era, less very law. This I have a little beautiful children and want to take pictures or not, is not great, but I know I start I stuck it out. I am. I didn't want to give up this little thing. It did overheat while we were recording it's on an ice pack right now we should say a few on a lot, a little pink eyes. Pack from my daughter's lunchbox took, I made it made it to me in the episode here it couldn't couldn't handle wireless charging talking on the video, the seasons. So in that sense so excited about the iphone fifteen for work purposes for the purposes of content creation, I've got numerous critiques and thoughts and and complications of others. However, I can't wait to preorder the phone. I don't care, how big the as long as it does not become like dangerously hot. While I intend to do my job avi I'll be happy. So you know enough:

john thank you so much for being on this is really fun alex. Thank you. We we all we're going to need to do this again. The numbers are not going to stop being weird and you're going to keep doing stuff. We, like so keep coming back on track. Anytime, really I pleasurable join you we've got to take one more break and then we're going to get to the votes cast hotline will be right back the era of automotive advances with the all electric pollstar to now. asked or charging improved epa estimated range of up to three hundred and twenty miles and advanced safety technology expiring are inspiring performance combined with luxury design as standard the time is now the all electric pollster to book a test drive and order today at paul dot com

right before we get out of here, let's answer a question from a hotline as your mind The hotline number is eight six six verge one one we want all of best and weirdest tat questions, and if you dont want to go you can email verge cast at the verge dot com that works great too, but it's always fun. Hearing the hotline not gonna lie anyway. This week's question sent me on kind of a tailspin, so let's just hear it. Yeah mark I'm temper, I got a question for you and you guys you like the right ones. The answer is a bit of a stream

meaning and a hardware question. So, a few months back during the review of the apple vision, pro bob eiger came onto the stage and mentioned that he was developing. They did they caught up for that thirty five hundred dollar monstrosity of a system. However, I did notice that now I have a couple of kids. We have intended switches there's over a hundred and twenty five million of those already sold and in hand everywhere. You guys have aim possible reason. Why did we wouldn't have a didn't, plus app already on a platform that big they ve, already I have a hulu app for it, so it seemed like a slam dunk why they wouldn't have it in hands of all the kids around him silly to carry around an ipad and a switch whenever we travel so just curious, if you guys had any thoughts on it, alright have a great day. Take care. Okay, I should say upfront that I am totally fascinated by this question and I'm still trying to report it out to. Hopefully I will have a firm pat hundreds. answer really soon, but in the mean

I've been talking to people and like putting yarn on board with people's photos, to try and make sense of this situation, and here's guns over. I think there are three separate things going on here and rank them kind of in order of importance. The first thing is that with the switch, nintendo wanted to make a game council first and foremost, we ve had companies in the past microsoft, the xbox one- probably most famously try to do HU, the game council oh and entertainment system thing really well simultaneously, and it just really doesn't work, and why the things that nintendo has done really well over time is just make great games. It has streaming services in the past, but the reason people buy tunnel. Products is for great games and intend, or knows that better than just about anybody us just name one example here is reggie feels I may who was formerly than intended of america president and see a low talking in twenty eight teen about how he was thinking about streaming services. The question was essentially when people,

to be able to watch, inflicts on the switch and here's what he said for those types of questions. We have to refer you to the folks at net so what we said, one we launched and tender switch was that we wanted to have a gaming first platform and that's what we ve it and that's what enabled us, in the first twelve months in the united states, to be the best selling home console in the history of video right now we enable hulu on the platform we ve said that other services will come in due time. for us we want to make sure that we continue driving the install base for an intended switch, continue, had great gain for the platform in terms of you know. What's next, on the streaming side, you're gonna have to talk to those individual providers in terms of where they stand and then what their working off that's a little bit of a cop out. But I think it's also true. There nintendo knows that entertainment doesn't really move the needle people might watch stuff on their consoles, but nobody buying a council as a way to watch stuff. Is that makes sense, and so I think,

if your nintendo and you're a company, that does basically one thing very well, and you want to keep doing it- that kind of focus, really they make sense. The second thing is that I think disney would really like to have disney plus on which, when it launched disney pleasant, twenty nineteen, it did a big show in front of investors about what was going on actually have a slide of all the places that it wanted dizzy plus to be, and it included a picture of the switch like right there on the slide, big red and and no switch and as he was showing this slide here is what Michael Paul, whose disease present streaming services said it's time right now we are securing distribution for disney plus across mobile devices and connected tv devices, including game consuls, streaming media players and smart tvs with these device partnerships. Not only do we optimize our product for consumer experience, we ensure that our service will be prominently, featured and merchandise done. Our partner

forms rate. Okay, so disney wanted this. I don't think that was smoke. That is disney saying we want to be on all the platforms. I think if it were easy and straightforward disney plus, would probably be on the switch, but that that Michael Paul said about being prominently, featured and merchandise. That's kind of the third thing we think of these streaming platforms and the systems that they run on as just sort of absolute right, build a thing put it on the platform everybody went, but the thought actually how it works, does. This is really messy and when ads, it involved and when subscriptions get involved, everybody wants to cut everyone. What's access to user data but he wants to be the first one featured in the store and get prominent placement and their questions about whose in the search and what, happens when you search for streaming. Every part of this is like real endlessly negotiated and there's a ton of money in it. It's how tv makers

go out of their money. It's how streaming platforms they go out of their money. This is a big and complicated business and think about it. does it intend to just doesn't need to care about any of this if you were were there was that email that fill spencer, the head of xbox sent about wanting to buying and tenedos. He basically said that the bad news for microsoft at the time was that nintendo and I'm quoting here, is sitting on a big pile of ash and they have a board of directors that until recently has not pushed for further increases in market growth or stock appreciation. If you were in theory Super interested in market growth or soccer appreciation wondering you might do, is higher a bunch of people and really into the weeds of negotiating. These deals are streaming services such that maybe you become a straining platform, but nintendo good Think nintendo needs the hassle. It's very happy making these ash hit games making a council once in a while. It seems to be a good

as seems to be working for an intend- and my guess is it just- doesn't need the nonsense that comes of being a really successful swimming platform put all together, and I I think that might be it. I think nintendo just doesn't want this that badly, and so here we are, I think, frank, It might be a miracle that we got hulu and youtube and crunchy role, rather than problem that we don't have the rest of the services. But that said, if there is a smoking gun here, I'm gonna find it and if you know the, sir, and you want to tell me why netflix and dizzy, plus and max and all these other services are not on a nintendo switch called outline. Eight, six, six verge one one or email us very. As for the versa, come tell me all answers, or for now that is it for them. gas thanks to everyone who came on the show- and thank you as always for listening theirs lots more on all of this stuff, especially the shut down of dvd dot com. Junko rutgers wrote a great piece for us about how that service worked, which is very cool, we'll put a bunch

Michel notes, but as always, we diverge icon cool website. The last thing this Probably the last call for this, but if you have questions about the verge or the verge cast that you wanted to answer on our meta verge, cast episode. The main now we're recording that absurd really soon gave a ton of fun stuff. It's gonna be really fun upset. This shows used by andrew Moreno ilium. James brook mentors is our editorial director of audio the votes cast his verve production and part of the vocs media podcast network me lie Alex now will be back on friday to talk about mega, connect, the cork conference, and whatever else happens this week, because everything just keeps happening was either rational, the era of automotive advances with the all electric paul star? To now it fast

or charging improved epa estimated range of up to three hundred and twenty miles and advanced safety technology, expiring, ah inspiring performance combined with luxury design as standard the time is now the all electric pollster to book a test drive and order today at bolster dot com.