This week on average has Julie. Alexander joins us talk. What clytie fallen apart, Addy Robertson joins us show to talk about the big antitrust suit against Google, and just gesture comes in fox gone empty buildings in wisconsin. It is barton, verna, avert chest coming up now: pay awry ryan reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced that we raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices. Do not hating, you that's right. We're cutting the price of mint, unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It mint mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation, an upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply, cement, mobile dot com for full terms, we eat with our eyes and our mouths, obviously, but also our brains. Noone can help you learn more about that psychological component to healthy eating, new music sign.

and send personalization, so you can manage your weight for the long term, start taking control of your weight management and join the millions who have lost weight with new. You can sign up for your trial today at noon. Dot. Com- that's in oh, am dot com to sign up for your trial today, the hello and welcome to the chest. The flagship podcast short form video on the internet. I'm a friend eli, I'm here diet around is here I'm your fast friend, that's a quick joke. Some seven equivalent shucks today, Julia alexander's here, I'm your short friend like form that there's a quick, might have a friend, I'm just going to say this at the very beginning. We are, As I what I found a researcher there's too much other news, so tuesday data and I are gonna- do a whole episode on the iphone with our friend Joanna stern, we're just going to do but I find areas because normally we would spend like it in time,

average guest on menu item Can I do that would joanna on tuesday, so sorry for the delay, but this week alone, julius here because clearly shut down. We I promised a gigantic fox on story. Joshua is going to join us and talk about that in the united states government sued, google for antitrust violations and Andy Robertson, is your trying to that's just a lot of stuff. These. I would this week when a push iphones to another said anne brain drain, which I think we have done so before. Start talking about quimby, where's our equipment and need to remind you that thirty three weeks since the president I'd states with near a flow chart. I mean he said: Google was building the website, but he didn't hold the flowchart himself. He was just in proximity to the flow chart which was being held aloft by daughter, Debra, burks flow chart, the google was building forty five million google engineers, admittedly intended bursts, were building a website where you'd central tasks you drive,

if the website doesn't exist. Thirty, two weeks, two other little bits of covered news again, the biggest story in the world is a pandemic. Nicole, what's been wrote a great sorted super interesting about how the pandemic has they brought the other russia, hospitals, research facilities, academics, public health folks to knit together like wildly fry. Instead, health data that existence united, it's like such a great systems problem the problem really coastal check that out and then I keep I can order effects. This is kind of a third order effect of the pandemic, so there's pandemic itself. There's all the ways we react to it and there's this, which is strange, microsoft went I mostly work from home on a saturday to microsoft, can work from home. They have extended that Tom had a great scoop about that, and now my Are you saying, whilst in this mode it is worse with its airline vendors to switch the fuel they use when they travel, so the planes are more fuel efficient. Which is just one of those things you can do in a lot of planes are flying in Europe.

Chris, often near like one day will be a big customer again. So let's take this opportunity. Super cool check that out on the site. Third, third order effects of the pandemic. We're just gonna, keep going. That's that began biggest or in the world who is always top of wine for us but could equipping Julia ox, though, are We the biggest story in the world. What's going on inquiry so quickly was a video service. We have covered it extensively. I will just give the disclosure now the media is a media company. We make a lot of streaming television, the rocks. We will have a netflix deal, the verb as an netflix deal vocs in part on had quitted shows they talk to us adequately show. I will reveal it now. We did a whole project with bare today. Thurston for when we show which would have been cool super excited work within didn't go anywhere, but we talked about it basically If media exists, someone at our company has talked about making many in that place because the big companies to now you know

we are usually pretty immune from that. Unless we d more specifically, but the company makes less. That said, there is a company called clearly julie, was cubbyhole. They already using past ten thats fast, so fast We wrote a story that is like it's going to be done for literally, the next story was caribbean shutting down when he was a short form, video streaming service, which is a sentence and partially why the company never took off it was going to build. I was going to basically release a bunch of prestigious Equality short form, videos that you could watch every single day. There'd be something new somewhere, really bad in dramatic and had actors like sophie turner and we're, hopefully going to draw a lot of attention and others were called daily essentials, which Jeffrey Katzenberg, who is the co founder later decided for not so essential area actually set it yeah me Was it a whiny that he turns out they weren't essential Julia could hardly be online.

And so the company which launched in April is now no longer a company they are currently and they Jeffrey katzenberg and work meg. Women are currently why it down. They have just overthrown, fifty million dollars left over in cash that they're giving back to investors and they're trying to shout of out of one point five billion raised and they occur. We selling the product for scraps or trying to So there's two things it gets out, there's all the shows which they had rights to and then there's there technology platform, which was it was pretty good, find a nursing She is with it, but I mean there's issues with every app, so it was fine for what it was supposed to be. I think the content was not. The content was terrible and that's also why it failed big part of, but it was an experiment that they thought was going to take off and then a bunch of things

including the pandemic and their whole expert. Their whole design was furthest experience on the go when suddenly people I'd know where to go, they never adapted, or they adopted too late to getting it on people's tv sets within. I think a day before it could be shut down, it was fine, when available and like amazon, fire tv devices and so could be really is just a story of too little too late and too much investment in something that everyone could have told you would not have worked out. I mean if you're central conceit of your streaming service. Is you should turn your phone sideways sometimes and, like you, Old everything around that it just doesn't like us enough. You might you might say that the idea that you would go ninety degrees that. Isn't gonna work, oh my god! Oh, are you ve been waiting to say that I know it is a good idea and I had to bring up the scale like I'm so excited they got to be the first one. It should

a lot of people ask me yesterday if I was to update the name of the go ninety scale of doom streaming services the hour. The virtuous official scale dunes training services, go. Ninety doesn't exist, so they can't pass a sponsor it, but fear out there, and you know, they'll, go ninety budget line at verizon, we're still we're still available and no the answer is: I'm not changing the name, even though kobe has gone. Ninety, if you're the first to fail spectacularly you need to moralized forever equivalent to be remembered for its own reasons: the go nineties, it's in our hearts, Did you not remember going any was for iceland extremely wild bet the company streaming service that they want it lasted for longer than committee clearly will lovingly remembered in harboured nba classes or some professor mode go children. Don't do this and will point to it as a case so do you wrote a peace eleven reasons it failed. I wanna go through some time with you. The way thing that just

strikes me equity and there, enormous amount of capital and they raised and ambition that they had. I will never forget sk, as casey was in one as early meetings with us, and he just not the funny thing you ever heard was a huge part of their pitch. Was most people spend a hundred dollars a minute on content we spend a hundred thousand dollars submit on, content in their pricing was like they were going to charge for it, which is hard winter talking to exist, but there pricing was less than that x, and I just couldn't not just the you just if all that india, like the world's most basic, excel spreadsheet, it's like the software could be like. This is a bad business idea like we're. have a thousand times more expensive product, but short worse than the most expensive competitor, always just seemed completely upside down to me that it was more expensive than apple tv plus, and at least with apple tv plus, you get full length shows that now

we're not not that bad and that that are pretty good. Now on the service. I've been thinking about the cost of could be a lot today, because today, also eighteen t had at your favorite company eighty anti had its earnings and john stinky basic him out was like. We understand that fifteen dollars is a lot for hbo content and for him to say it was, we had it like a little more than a best television programming, you're gonna get the idea that could be would charge a third of that for the worse tv, programming, Europe we're gonna, get is still far too much, and this was for the issue. It was like everything that people reckon did before they launch they tried about a month before the company when, under that, we everyone suggested, do an ad free, as free add supported tier. They did that in Australia, one month before the company, wonder. If everybody said hey, you should probably figure out a way to screenshot, so people can share this and becomes viral. They figure that out, like two months before the company went under because they had to deal with some stuff. There was no

we're site going into those about what how people actually user bones, what their willing to pay for content wise and everyone who recommended things, cats and bring women, seem to just kind of wave, ah flacon, as if we ve done this before, don't worry, it's like well you're, trying to appeal to bunch a nineteen year old. None of this stuff is going to appeal two forty year olds. What you're trying to do this is not going to work out for you. They just ignored every single pisa criticism. They got so this is are you are, then you are a piece on his couple of months ago in adding Tom, conrad the city of could be had like a really great threat about how difficult it was to build this. Shot functionality cars to get around the r m. They had to make sure it worked on all the phones or the other stuff. Very cool was very clever how they built it, but you had written a piece. It was like shows are marketed online now, and you have no you have no ability to market issues. You can run all the ads in other places you want, but if your biggest fans can't screen shot the show and make means out of your doomed

and I just never seem to hit them even today, Jeffrey Katzenberg said are appointed to disney hbo enough netflix. These any can't screenshot on there is either- and I pointed out yes, you can it's on chrome and that, because they have website or web, browser browser version of bit versions, available, seeking, go on and make say, half screenshots and then those travelling there. well download, those or whatever, and then they shred them with their quiver. You didn't have any of that and it's you should have known going into this. Hey, there's a there's, an issue with duran we'd have to get around it: let's figure how to build this tool and talk to apple and Google or whoever and figure out how to It is because they did. They just didn't want to acknowledge that this was going to be an issue to begin with, and that is at the forward like the bottom of it. That is like the core issue the committee is, there was no insight into what they are actually building. I don't think they actually understood what they were building. They thought there building entertaining company,

in a traditional way and that doesn't work anymore. They thought they were going to have content those going to compete with the biggest players and that barely works anymore, even for the biggest players were struggling to find content to compete with each other, and they just went into the and assume that things were going to work out because I dont even know. I don't even know how why the through a twisting than its was going to work out. Could everyone kept saying the seems like yours? that idea now it now it is, do you think they thought it would work out because their smart people at it has worked out for them in the past, like an old dream, works was like whatever like could. Could anyone have predicted that a fairy terry fairytale movie about a big green, like troll, would have liked In, like a huge cultural moment like sometimes you just gotta role the dice and they ruled the dice in their most like Piling show that I saw what has like the golden arm.

Some other issues there found recorded other found right. I thought that was amazing, but they just dick, sometimes like the entertainment just doesn't hit, but I think there is a difference between taking a bet on something like shrank, which I would predictive would have been great constructive only because a smash mouth no. I mean I can have a full come around shy. clearly failed import. There was no short by the. U can resume tracking. You hope it works out. There's a big budget moving you're hoping people go to theatres and it works out. There is a difference between them and finding a consistent string of content that people are gonna continuously pay month after month or like the thing was turning in particular, is not just gaining customers, which is based on original content, its keeping those customers. And if we look at the statistics from The flicks and disney and hp max. Even now, that's newer. What's keeping people in those libraries like there was too little tune in to watch,

your things or game of thrones or the delorean. Then then staying staying watch, marble. Who is your staying to watch? We note on netflix anymore frazier, who knows me qb. One didn't have the new shows to bring people, and some people were already like. I do want to spend in whatever five experts on this and after you're, in there and you're kind of looking around there's nothing to keep you? Why would you continuously pay? So it's not even just spending one. It thousand dollars a minute on content. You need content, it spending a hundred thousand dollars a minute on content that is going to take people's attention away from not only the other streamers but also fortnite and tiktok, and youtube and instagram and there was never anything on could be even from law from the gecko. That made me want to open that up, You know it's funny: I'm parks and rack just went to peacock No and parts is like Becky's comfort. Food shows that was our netflix and, like she just watch it resources are always on and I went to a peacock at my hearing. We just sign up for being locked like

an amateur? I that's the thing that she wants, so he sent it live to disclose. Peacock is on my NBC Nbc, much. Every time you only see has invested wisely, but, like eight made me really think the value that library rarely here's this q I have no idea what's new on peacock, it doesn't matter to me if they make a new shown put on that score. It just has a library of things that we wanted to have, and so now we have it. I don't love it. I don't have much preferred when it was all a netflix as much as I love competition, it was a lot more convenient. As my one television monopoly provider, but there is never a moment, whereas I gotta pay the money to cats lincoln. Never he added, I think I want him back in red feature that actually cs: where are we sat down with Katzenberg and women, and we went to their in. In launch a then where they can even show the app they just said. Things like this is this

generation is still narrative in Where was I I've been doing this since before he were fuckin born, which is a real thing that he said to us and we are like, I dont. There are guys with pressure washers tik tok that have a larger audience than all of quid because, like the mobile jobs are designed algorithmic. We find audiences for you and your impeding ends. Infinity like infinity in free? Is your competition in Europe? I'm, am spending more money cast off shows from networks that know they can take me for a ride into. I think partly issue is that they want, launch a traditional media company in a very revolutionary period, where traditional media doesn't work and am we're sing that, because every single entertainment company conglomerate that your parents grew up with are now publicly coming out a streaming. Companies like all pivoted rear later by the way and universal, like we did a bunch of com

isn't a news and tv now er strewn company like end there just command saying it, and cats in women men were, did the opposite. They said we're. Gonna, basically, will use a bunch of, we'll find an audience over time, so that doesn't work that way disney plus launched with the way the best kind by excited to see what one of the libraries want in one show, and even they were like. Oh, like we're building our subscribers, but we gotta get new content on the platform or, if we're not going to keep people and that's why netflix works so well, netflix releases, a bunch of average shows and movies, but they do it's o consistently and they are such a library of licence. they're like. I don't even think about spending an extra twelve dollars and next year, when netflix increase in introduces a price hike in view, won't think twice about spending. Ten fifty dollars you go and make sense now will pay for it and could be even if it hadn't forty three tiered that might help them grow their subscriber base a little bed. It's not enough because they're, not playing the game. The weight needs to be played now sorts.

In giving cats the benefit of the doubt. There was a pandemic right. There continues to be He did pitch this thing is premium on ago, so commuting neared board at work, you would like to watch CBS sixty in sex or whenever there their version, Was it twenty twenty one though CBS sixty minutes serenity sixty insects, so you want to premium news and of whenever garbage on twitter or whatever radicalizing content did you algorithm is gonna serve you ve been, I was his pitch right is theirs. There is a world in which people will pay for quality, and I can deliver them quality whether other shows were not actually quality, but then there If the pandemics are no one's, doing that everyone's just sitting around at home, do you think that that is the thing that broke them? Because a couple of months ago he was like the pandemic is breaking us. I think it's unfair to say it's entirely. I and it could be and could be leadership because, yes, there's pandemic the pandemic. Did this really beautiful thing of accelerating transit would have taken five years

it's amazing, like I, I obsess over it and everything that we thought was going to happen at forty. Eight months is now happening right now, and so, if you look at caribbean, it's like yes pandemic did, hurt you and that sucks your other competitors. The acceleration hit them too, and they just grew exponentially. They I mean. Aren't people on their phones, like instagram saw increased usage. I don't know about snap, but tiktok obviously saw a massive increase with people being at home and recording, I don't think katzenberg and whitman's ideas necessarily wrong. I just think, it's very hard to come into a field like this, without understanding the importance of inactivity and viral means and creators influencers. Also, and not acknowledging that all the daily stuff that you thought that he thought people might tuna for are already being

by youtube errors and take talker like they'll. Do daily new shows all do bailey recapture thanks to better and more fun, and they have an audience and they're doing it regularly for cheaper, and so I think it is biggest downfall was just he thinks, he's, never failed and dad. arrogance doesn't fly in an industry that is rapidly changing every thirty days. Yeah one thing that really caught me at launch. I remember when add this to us, but, yes, he ended a show and could be increased it was like, venus due to show its exactly. What I want is today is best highlights, like you, don't get the aeneas feeling more. That's what I want I want highlights. Like the reason he s been doesn't do highlights and cable is because highlights our free everywhere you are a sports fan and you open twitter. You follow buddy related to the teams that you like. You will inevitably see the highlights there. it's available for you on E S, p n dot com for free. They are available free on nbc dot com from wherever

One highlights: are there therefore free saying to pay money to watch e s p, repackage final, yes p end as even think. That's a good business anymore. Only leagues, partnered, with a social safety net ba is partnered with twitter. Is that way you can do actually get it from the nba onto the agenda. that was the one whereas, like like the planes clue over your head, like goodbye yeah, I still I believe that some kind of pitch like what could be a saying, could work that I will pay you money to do the work of providing me like some daily stuff and some quality stuff. I can watch quickly, so I dont have to wade through the algorithms on youtube and tiktok whatever, but the the problem is,

I think that the strength of those algorithms is so vast that trying to compete with them was just saying no we're going to take care of it for you and get you the the content that you want. That's quality on it for professionals or whatever it's just it's really hard, and in order to pull it off, you actually have to pull it off and make that content, and it just sounds like they didn't, peter kafka recurred wrote a very strong peace, estralla arguing for more committees, which is like An incredible troll the headline, his instincts are very smart turbine, but his point was the new media model, which is what we have been discussing this whole time, which is you make an attack platform, a bunch of people caught on a platform for free and an you sell bites of attention to advertisers and ever, one feels cheated like every to be in the world like enough. so it makes a video on youtube is treating them. It doesn't matter what kind of you to where they are it just the end point of your youtube career Every incident inference reveal she'd like right. The platforms

Strict always value from free stuff, and then the algorithms to all kinds of bad things that were in democracy and he's like that's the new. well that's bad. We should have more things that are queries. Model which is smart, intrusted and expert experienced we're gonna make, just often in charge you for it. Yet I dont I agree with you. There is a huge race towards subscription models across the media industry. Everyone from, publications this individual reporters like I see that, but this doesn't my disagree. With Peter is not in the army. the substance of the argument is that we never realized how small of a pitch it was making how teeny tiny of a business it was describing it only pride itself, as we will change we everyone in the world, visas are phone willing to debtors. Final point: they were kind of thing happening, I'll, be quick, but

if you combine two things that I think are very interesting happening at the same time. One is that disney plus is sing like pretty good viewership of shorts. Why they keep making shorts in part? That's because kids have short attention spans and will just watch the same thing over and over and over again, and it works for them. But on the other side, you have people like netflix, you have theirs chief product officer coming out and going the majority of what people watch is to our recommendations, like that. Does the majority of what people watch cause? They don't want to sift through stuff and we hyper target those recommendations, while also plugging their stuff. and if you can combine those two like there's a business where it's like, you figure out what really works. You have the content to do it and you have the teams to understand what they're doing and not just someone who's. Thinking like I'm going to try the streaming thing. It seems like a hot tub hot ticket there's a world in which the idea of what could be wanted to be exist, issues that could be didn't underpin. What could he wanted to be the nicest most complicated. Budget puzzle of a clear explanation. I ever heard my entire life we gotta wrap it up. Did

ready made me sad, but I'm just gonna say it clearly has gone. Ninety happened, whereas update the charter Julia who do you think is what is the next service that could potentially go ninety paramount plus That's it that's going to like what is that that CBS all access rebranding in twenty twenty one, and so once guineas That is no one knows what it is. if that answer was at once, both like you thought about it, but it was also in the tip of your tongue. Ideally a pleasure, as always we're gonna, take a break, we'll be right back with Andy Robertson, to talk about anti trust. In section two. Thirty am ryan reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate

Our prices do not hating you. That's right. We're cutting the price of men unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. My mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation and up front payment for three men plan required taxes in these extra additional restrictions apply seem at mobiles outcome for filter. support for the show comes from gold peak, real routine, there's a time a day about an hour before sunset, where the rays feel warm and the breeze feels cool. But the hour of golden palace is always gone too soon. You may rekindled. The feeling, with a pot of gold peak made with high quality tea, leaves it's smooth taste transports you to golden hour at any hour gold peak tea. It's got to be gold. our back alley. Robertson. Is your hiring high, so big on the policy desk at the virtual come something something

Google, I believe something did happens. So a on wednesday. The justice department brought a very, very long awaited antitrust law suit. google, I'm saying that its search product has basically corner the market on this very important area. Search and was locking up potentially better competition, and it s for, among other things, potential structural changes to the company we don't really know a whole lot more than that before we get to into the the nitty gritty which I'm very excited for. Can you just on the scope of things at the departed? justice. Does this feels like it's on the level of them going after microsoft in the nineties? This isn't like a little thing. That will go away after a couple of weeks because the new cycle has moved on or whatever that like. This is going to be some kind of big fight, even if the department of justice completely loses because

argument is questionable or whatever that this is a big, ambitious, meaningful thing. That's happening, not just a government agency complaining about big tech yeah. This is a really big deal. This is in the works for a very long time. There are anti trust investigations against all the big for tech companies, and this is the first of them and also the first really big action against Google. For a long time there was an f tc, I believe case against Google, or two decades ago, and this is going after google search, which is the heart of their business, and it's going after just the general idea of their size and so yeah. We dont totally know what the rest of the case is going to. Look like one of the weird things is that a fairly small number of attorney general has signed onto this, but are definitely going for something that is microsoft scale and I think the comparisons, the microsoft case, you're, gonna, cutting and in both directions.

tim, who is a friend of the show and someone we generally trust to have one of these, the stuff like this it is they just model that, after the microsoft case, it's the same argument and then there is someone out there who are like this is totally different like a different, when different case different time. So I think we have to see how that plays out how you were talking about what they asked for at the end dimension at the end. We were, structural relief and at his legal code for break up google, and then it's like and also anything else, the court things would be good and that's the part that is the mists me right. This thing doesn't tell a story describes a problem which is that google is very big. We should get into the pleasant minuses of justice rather problem, but

It describes a problem, but it doesn't really. It doesn't feel like the deirdre is like asking for something they're. Just like look at how bad this problem is. It also seems like there are structural remedies. I mean it does sound like code for breakup, Google, but that's not really implied by the suit, like the things they're actually complaining about concretely are Hey Google has these deals where android phone makers have to install certain apps if they want to have any google apps pre installed that google chrome its default search engine is google search on that google? Has this revenue sharing deal with apple that they're alleging, provides this huge chunk of apple's profits? That means that it's the default search, engine for apple products and all of those remedies ecologist seems like the solution their insinuating as that google needs to stop having these deals or that it needs to add something like preference menu like you can select your browser when you first sorry, I keep saying

I was there, I mean certain that you can select your search engine whenever you opened its brow. The browser like stuff, like that, it's not really clear unless they don't know spun off search how breaking approval would help this particular case that they're making the only part I like. I think that whole like they're abusing monopoly power, because they make good deals with apple, is really weird, but the part where they argue that the default actually matters, and even if it's easy to change the default, tony that I think Google believes that they have been incredibly consistent in telling me that, like they care about the default every time a yell them, what messaging products and there's a million of them and how do I choose or whatever they're like look- everybody just uses the app that says, messages on the homescreen and like a tiny portion, go over to something else and make that their main messaging app. So you have to get the default right the flip side of that of them. Knowing how valuable that default is, is they will?

However, they can to make sure that their the default on as many browsers as possible to make sure that the google search as the thing that has just easy to use that you have to think about. I mean the interesting thing is that they trained ford a counterpoint to that by citing back in twenty fourteen when mozilla sign this deal to make yahoo as default browser? and they're like everybody hated yahoo they able to switch back to Google and then it is through that. Mozilla then terminated its deal with yahoo, basically saying they wanted to do a thing that was better for their brand and their product, but that definitely does not this qualify. The larger point doesn't so I am. of two minds about this case. This is really a thing. I want to talk about. Tell me for you this as I do. I just don't know what stand, I think you've been listening to the ranch reading the urge you know what very interested answer. Trusting away are very interested in competition with the covering the suffering closely. It is true. In many places there is not enough competition, so

will search on mobile. I think we ve made this point. Five thousand times has just become cluttered and full of Google services and ads and it is like it's a veering towards frustratingly unusable. It's not quite there. Everybody so is it, but you can just see the user. Experience is getting worse because we're gonna, do you re ease being so? that's what I say is there, so even feel. There's not enough competition there and secular and I think, if you know a crossover. The ad landscape, facebook and google are the stew appley a lot of advertisers and marketers will tell you it's a problem so on and so forth, but then there's the reality, which is Yet what are you using any? No one does it and then there's this case in particular, if you read the complaint, it just its pages and pages going on about apple.

who will pay money to apple, to be set as the default on the iphone and I'm just like? Well, that's that's been like microsoft. Isn't poor You could just pay apple, more money in an instant would be on the iphone, and you have this there's always argument that the amount of data you collect in search makes it engine better and it's hard at what might is obvious. Apple the money and they would get a flood of data from iphone users, and they don't deny is, is our government suggesting that apple has done something wrong or that google? something wrong by paying apple. Its does apple does not lack bargaining power. I don't feel bad for apple in this situation. They demanded a price and they got so that coal part of the argument to me just undercuts this case. In a way that me To me, it makes it feel, like a huge, missed opportunity like Google's gonna, just win. One walking away. Because What do you want to do? You may see iphone, found worse, judge and judged him. You are

love my phone. Can you help me if they start making, because I want to see that happen all the time just like. Am I missing something? I've been trying to figure out if I'm missing something since the case hit tell it so hard for me to tell, because I am not a lawyer and totally willing to believe that the people at the justice department know something I don't and are smarter than me. But I have also there have been all of these sort of rumours that they were brushing this case before the election and not making the strongest case that they could. So yet, it's really difficult for me to tell, because that's also an argument I haven't seen brought up all that much in other anti trust. Complaints about Google, like I feel it most of them, have not brought up the apple Google relationship to merely the same degree as a bunch of other factors, and once we heard about the apple thing is the case against their bundle, that they do on android and forcing a bunch of carriers, and especially manufacturers into agreements that they might not necessarily want to agree to is relatively strong, the eu

used it successfully to like make some change as to the way that android is supposed to operate in a way that bundled google apps are operate in the eu in its you know, I know that Andrew doesn't have the same mind share in the: u S, that apple does, and you know not the same market It has worldwide blah blah blah, but it just seems like there's a case there. That also has some precedent that worked and they could have potentially drafted off that success now this is the other thing that I think is weak about this truly the EU did did atrophy force. Android, unbundled. I think that is a much stronger argument right, so you're an android fund vendor your algae. and you want to ship an android phone in the united states, beer, on his way to fail unless it has placed or on it, to get the place You have to sign up. Every other Google thing put the google search in your home screen, blah blah blah blah blah right. Ok, incidents like a form ty any like walked down the soul and entrust argument right. My

davy windows, but too so initiated doing and explore boo hoo netscape went away. Are we all outside about it? In our like the richest person, the world and chrome exists like it was fine, but I It's that argument again. I think. That's where that this is a carbon copy of the microsoft case comes from with Andorra. Theirs is tying, but then you look at the eu which has been chasing after Google. for one decade in they have accomplished from the consumer perspective, nothing yeah, there's a pop up menu, not a bit like Google's market shares as high as ever I remember window. the EU decision, I google, being forced unbundle, andrea, chrome and search came out, I was near such an adela in the room with him, and I was like. Oh, you can make a phone now. You can make a microsoft android phone that has waste or what you need, but do is like eyes me as good, as you think, then they made an android phone. It has all who services on it just the same as ever, because that's what people want and that to me is if you

or a regulator enhances unites its partner just as one of the attorney general's who you wanted. Turning general who signed onto this case, you picked this same thing that didn't accomplish anything in the EU. But you you're just driving down the same road. There's a chart etienne I share this two years from like the former chief accountant, So the EU competition commission the meme it started how's it going, unlike the house, going is like the market share of google search is just a flat line for a decade. Why would you do that? Why? Wouldn't you you're the department of justice it's too, before an election? You work crazy administration in history. Why, when just like, I think we should break up you too just some fish. Whatever leg I mean I should be the ceo of Google just like we have a different idea than the ear there's accomplish nothing like when I it's a missed opportunity. That's the thing I think, but

it seems like a lot of people are saying this case is going to mutate a lot over time yeah. So the argument I heard from people who are fans of the case, which include people like the head of vp of policy at yelp, who is obviously a huge critic of Google, is that this is like a steak that they are going to then move asked the maybe they're gonna start with this, and then other states are going to join this complaint or they're going to add more charges. It's going to get into something like add tech, where google does actually have this giant company that it bought that it could spin off and that from there or it's going to be something much stronger in their theirs and it's the texas attorney general has a case. It's like pretty narrowly focused on ads like ad tech inside of Google, which is I mean, that's if you want to hurt Google, that's where it hurts. Actually, let's, let's explain Turning general thing, so there is the case in an injustice was joined by

to pursue mostly red state attorney general's. In its way, tis james from new york and about other people, s father and suit later, yes, that's The thing that I understand, although it's all again it all- seems a little bit fuzzy to me so it's likely that there's another big and interests action against Google coming it. Definitely sounds like other yeah. Other states are working on their own version of this case and it's not totally clear what it looks like yet, but the thing that I've that people seem to think that there is going to be advertising stuff in it stronger. I just keep coming back to the notion that people want to use Google Google's really good. I mean it sucks. Now, it's worse than its ever been, and it's still really could I was on. I think it was on John gruber show a while ago after the the anti trust hearing- and we just I think we we talked for like ten minutes about- Why apple hasn't built a search engine, and now we know like its riches, Google, some billions of dollars in that its easier.

Get a check that make a search engine, but I just why It's me that there are no competitors to general search. There is being and there's duckduckgo courage licences, a portion of being anxious to go. You it like synthesizers, a couple of different indexes but yeah, but right, but nobody dares google and being as general indexes and there's a couple like yahoo is being in dutch. Echo is a synthesis like no other Trying to do the thing, I'm not sure what again dixon by duty is. Actually they operate, obviously do not really operate in the? U s, but that is the sort of competition in Europe. Was the index me crazy? If the billboards deal Jake we'd, like binding common, really a fire in the united states general search? That's me suggests, like We know Google is a good business right there print money, the fact that no one else is like we should bite off a piece of that good business itself from microsoft, which is historically hates google, detoured, isn, t

think there's something there. The just prevents people from competing, so I mean there's the google is jack and has a ton of data is better at algorithms. Anybody and it's just too big a moat for anybody to even want to try to cross, because in order to build up the data and expertise you need in order to be remotely competitive, you'll just you'd, never get any traction there's one theory. Another three might just be that like add, take on the web is incredibly complicated. The way the auctions work, the number of players, the different levels ways money flows around its like it would take us forever and you would give up if we tried to explain it and like I would need to do a bunch of research to not some it's complete idiot about it. I'm talking these vague generalities here, but Google's dominant every part of that hugely complicated stack, and so, if you want to run a search engine, you've, it's gotta be free and therefore you're going to need ads to you know, subsidize it and therefore you're going to

two like start participating in the ad market at a scale that actually can like subsidize your search engine, and I think that is equally, if not harder its equally hard, if not harder than trying to compete with google on just like the core technology, having a good search engine are companies chief, rubbing officer, rhine, polly, he's in charge of advertising and our company, when it is, airlines is like the only reason. The attack ecosystem is as complicated as it is, is so that the people who understand it can keep their jobs, which taught us very funny, but that comes that comes back to this apple deal right, which is why it would be at the heart of this lawsuit might unless it is basically split into three parts, conceptually in sport and more parts, but conceptually its Hey Google's, really big look at the size of its bigness. It has its apple deal, would size this apple deal we have evidence. Is google discuss, is losing. The apple deal is like a code red situation then, and here's a bunch of android stuff right, like those are the three that's kind of how the last

I just don't know that you saw google to change the way apple does business. I can't wind in my way, through a method in which the government, Portugal I'd, say it's government which does not have the competition law the EU. Does that really does not have the poet all capital to lake individually. Regular. contracts between companies like that's just not how we do it that you would. You, google, because you don't want apple, to make a deal in my area than you a piece who's the victim like like whose really early there's no victim here. So it's like really hard to make the case anyone's even being hurt based on our current law, which is funny because there is this really liked him whew sites this. He basically thinks the victim is vertical search engines like yelp and tripadvisor and kayak, and whoever that basically, Google changes its search engines so that its very very difficult

them to compete even when they offer a superior product, and it really doesn't come up at all. In this case, yeah didn't you you showed aside. There was like just google showing the way you can find bread. Yes, bread and a question mark way had their defence. Is you gotta get that bread The evidence is, if you like. What's bread, google, you could be like Google, what is bread or you can look up bread influencers, instagram for you, like I dont, know, search for bread on yelp. Whether the point of that slide was that there are a lot of ways the people get information now, that's not a literal search engine and therefore Google has competition. That is beyond that. That's the same argument is amazon, says they're not usually dominant because there's all of retail, the history of humanity or google says they dont only add market, because magazine advertising still exists outside the internet. That I don't know that's off. It's not this time. Argument. It's very but, like Google does

team we put out sides with wider alike speech, rules of someone thing alexa. What has bred google put out there Why? Because a lot of the garments cases like it, Google's gonna dominated voice. Search in Google, like you were very much in second place. Thank you. Have you met John he's over. There is he's in first place, and that means for the first time ever trust cases defined the market, and that's why I m I was like stores exist and google is like other search exists. I think pink they that's a baseless pinterest on it. Yes, basically anywhere, you can look up information but at the end of the day, the fact that, like all of this is we think big. Around a raw deal is like conditioned by the fact. That being is not good, I mean their argument is,

I have to go, and I'm trying to remember the name of the search engine that was created by Google executive, that supposed to be paid search. Their thing is, basically everybody hates data harvesting and if Google weren't so powerful, maybe these small competitors that have alternate business models would be able to get a toehold. That's pretty good, I mean I buy it. I just I just keep going back to the notion that apple should be prevented from taking the check like. How do you regulate Google? How do you punish google in such a way that it can't make that deal like, I just don't think a judge in any of our courts is going. Right, is going to do software design and make the browser ballot right. The because you didn't do it in courts. The way that this is happening. I have a competition authority right, there's specialised agencies thinks about it and they were very happy to be like we, mandating software design for windows and android,

To me, I just don't see it united states, federal court, judge being like. I have some thoughts on software design. Here are the buttons you need to have to fix this problem. So I I dunno there's. I just keep come back to it since this is a missed opportunity. The other thing that I see in this case, so an outer shilling, There's this line. Words like in twenty fifteen. Google used its power over android to provide a major united states carrier from installing it's own search engine on the homescreen of phones and I'm reading that MIKE yeah the rules, why you it all the time, like that's obviously verizon, like obviously verizon, wanted to put a bunch of airport where, on their phone in Google, said no and like evade ship to fund the bunch of ale blower on it dear. What have complained yeah we would have like this sucks. Google stick a firmer hand with android, which is a thing yours have said since android came out, isn't isn't there just a disk? from the reality of like how we

wanted android to work. This is interesting because this is totally the thing. The case against apple antitrust cases is that I owe us is really good because it's really locked down, but I don't, but maybe I just like- maybe the like- I'm the one is always going to accomplish it. Maybe I should just accept carrier bullet where, in my life I mean the the sub text, a summons conversation is, is is ultimately the solution here make google search worse in some way, and that opens the door for competitors. Am that's like, like a fine argument to me, I suppose, but has not one. That's gonna get you a lot of support. Nothin, like mass support from the people matters that much in that. It is a case like this, but that, if like the subjects of the argument is google search is too good and when you d like break that down, so that other people can get in there, that's that's not gonna get him anywhere. I think it also just heels kind of intuitively wrong to a lot of people like, I fear the key

Her web comic penny arcade did a strict about Google anti trust and their thing was just. Oh: hey, Google, anti trust the let's put it in a google doc and then that female to write about this and then we're gonna go watch a youtube, video and then we're gonna. Do you use google search and then we're going to put google ads on it like their debts. I think the thing that's much more intuitive to most people is. Google just makes everything except a good messaging client just to be very clear. Yes, they only kill those They want them to and we could keep going on us. It's obviously gonna take years. We see there's an election coming up. It feels like the justice norman matter who wins will carry this feels like these cases from the state. our coming there's a lot yet to come, but I would say that the just salt of this that we ve just been there is a lot of people are very happy in a lot of people. Like me, think it's a little bit more of a missed opportunity. because they rushed out to get a headline before an election which he read it you decide

but obviously is keep covering this area. One more I want talk about with you take a break in brown Josh. I got fox on there's just two pretty noise in the world as usual. It is a subpoena act or see. In sucker burg, twitter released feature that house she he is very mad about twitter, asking you to read the article, which has very thick very funny two thousand one slashed outweigh like twitter's like redefined article, but the government is mad about that which is incredible: jack up port twitter. What is that? current state of just like two thirty encounter moderation.

so the state of two thirty is that there were. I believe there is another new build this week that we didn't even get into her talk about and that the ep c c has decided to move forward. With that really bizarre plan. The trump has been trying to push since like earlier this year, where they could clarify section two thirty by completely rewriting it, and the interpretation is look still. You ve probably can't do that and they haven't really moved on it yet, but it's all because everyone's really mad at twitter for blocking that link last week to the new posts story right. Can you just real quick? I don't know how to talk about this real, quick but ass, the fcc basically doing it. if they say no, no! No! We! We have something to say here. What what exactly are they claiming and like? Can they do it and is it? Is that going to do anything or is it just more noise around two thirty

Oh the fcc is basically saying we have the authority to interpret this part of the communications decency act. Basically, the only part left because there are words in it that are ambiguous, like some point. It says that you can't be sued for blocking quote otherwise objectionable content and their life could totally rewrite this, and this is actually considered not valid or reasonable. At all and again, the election makes it really hard to talk about whatever might happen, because it's possible just none of this will move forward, but it's been. The fcc have been widely derided for claiming that it can do this for a long time. It seems kind of at the edge of anything that could be considered acceptable. And it will also not stop congress from just constantly trying to change section, two thirty on its own again, I will remind everyone that, in the context,

two. Thirty donald trump and Joe Biden have the exact same completely unconsidered position which is repealed Ten, two thirty. Neither unless something has changed, I neither campaign has issued any further. guidance on what that would mean or what they would do, but by not to strike out, we should repeal it and trumpets trump and he'll tweet it whenever he wishes. Yes, I mean trump is much more dedicated to bite and seems it's just somebody asked him about it once and he was like sure why not, whereas trump just constantly tweets it now, and it's just a huge hobby horse for him. But it's funny to this one, which is like you know this domini. It's tech policy, twitter, every twenty minutes like it just keeps bubbling up. They have. They have effectively the same position not even sure I consider by having a position at this point I don't know like. I think it was a really dumb thing for him to say, but the fact that he's just kept so quiet on it makes me big. It just means I feel like I don't have a good picture of how we would actually try to enforce any

if he is elected yeah, I'm not sure I need it, but they have set it. It's it well, it's not just one throw away if set a couple of times now all that said what got me about this FCC blog post was equipped scully decision in their life. Scully are using? His textual list approach. Reading the plea the plane images case says we have the power to interpret to thirty. Two very is like not that old Well, it's not like george Washington and right. It is very easy to read in its very Plainly says that the platforms have the ability to moderate and also first amendment lets them: do it anyway, such is very far in then there is that I think I retreated to start, but this action I see position on net neutrality. In the I s p throttling and blocking content. Yes and then platter, was doing. It are literally diametrically opposed so like when it comes. I espies he's like the gallery,

involve light touch regulation either. No climate issues at play and then with twitter, like the government has to step in here, because it's a monopoly inside one in ten americans uses twitter, but that's how public really that's the size and twitter, but that's all we can see. So we think all of they got it needs to be I much when all the time is this, where we are its, I love it. The most So we don't think anything else is happening with two thirty until the election or it just going to be. There's this hearing I mean there's the hearing. I guess we you never know, because I don't ever want to make any predictions. Anything that might happen now in government, but it seems unlikely that anything really big is going to happen before the election. That's not just so fury, I'm excited it. We're reporting this nightmare the afternoon before the debate. It would be amazing if

half an hour. This debate was extremely substantive to thirty proposals. I was going to have to say anything is possible and in two thousand and twenty that's that's my. If I can get that bingo square be very happy we had a wrap this up, addy I'd like you to stay because just going to join us in our thoughts on and there's a guy. Ass to him in that story. There is I just like you to be around when we talk about so ill, fated costumes, we'll be right back fox creator. This is advertiser content from see, johnson from the tiniest plankton to the most enormous whale ocean ecosystems thrive when all parts and cycles work in harmony, each rely on the rest to survive a healthy. Healthy oceans and held the oceans can't drive when overwhelm by plastic pollution. We can't let us continue This is not a problem that individuals can solve upon our own. I'm sorry!

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months six months like this, all you did for months, something like four months. I think just on them we ve never done before says I Jabez Josh, I think, they're about paid off spectacularly, but you you have just waves, you ve, been writing a story that nothing happening for two years is rent for months, proving that nothing was happening which is incredible but give us to give a sort of oil and what what what on earth is happening in this building in wisconsin. Yet so it turns out extremely hard to prove. Nothing has happened, and I took time to really confirm that boy, but nothing is happening. Dave built some buildings, unclear what will happen then? They hired people who had very little to do. They spent around looking for some way to generate money for a while and did some strange thing said mostly fell apart. And now there's a building That's not a fad, have built sphere.

Yeah, let's, let's take it a building empty building by empty building, so twenty seventeen trump, then governor Scott locker so steel is emerging and other western valley fastens. Here the banana added up for issue billion dollars incentive from the state, local governments. Those centres. Tax subsidies would have paid in cash with a higher enough people per the cot. There's this contract at the heart of this whole story. Contractors in wisconsin fox on that contract seems very contentious right now. Yes, so walker signed this record breaking subsidy deal wisconsin and local governments were going to do a bunch of stuff they're going to acquire land to build infrastructure that had all that and then the heart of it was about three billion in tax subsidies that would be paid to foxconn when it hits hiring numbers farce gone has desperately trying to hit those numbers hiring people and the final months of the year and then letting some them off immediately

the deadline- it has so far failed by its that sort of new, because it's not building where is specified in the contract, which is a giant ten point. Five elsie de fabrication facility, plus the giant twenty million square foot elsie factory that first one outside asia and instead vocs Hon said it was building a general tax which is much smaller and then it turned out has not really built. Agenda expert has built some sort of building but it says, will make our cities by is maybe just at last stage, assembly building or a storage facility, So this storage facility, part of it, is a little complicated you, you reported in the big feature the fox. Only a permit

james building storage, but there's a little bit of complication. There's six main out of it yeah. So it's supposed to be in a normal family, would have part of it, and this is the original plan for this one part of it. That makes the actual elsie the panel, which is the really the heavy industrial component of it, that would know what you make the glass and then you have another part of it. They thing where you assemble into a finished product like I'm honored or tv or whatever fox, can last month got a permit to change the elsie part of that factory and distorts ass, an angry exactly why it's possible that it's, because that part of it factory would have required a lot of expensive safety measures that,

you no longer have to do in order to occupy the building, and so in theory, they could do some last stage. Assembly stuff there they could use for storage, they can do other things with the building, but they're not gonna, make our cities that they might assemble. products from components that are shifting from china or elsewhere. So When I get into the I mean the story is so sad because so many people believed and they got their hearts broken and it's tragic. There are some parts that are pure comedy ever talk about all that, but just to wrap up sort of the beginning and end of the reporting has eggs concept anything now. The stories of five tonne has denied that they hired people just to get the subsidies. They said they experience and growing pains Norton the movie american factory, but then, when I re watched american factory last night, if

you are saying what we're doing is like american factory. You should just leave you, you should quit. You should caribbean out. You should get out. That movie is horrifying. That was what the fox hundred employees said, and they said it was. You know they were told to watch it, because it was an example of what they're going doing in wisconsin, and then they watched in horror movies. Chinese company can to date, no higher in crushing a union that movies of what they do it anyway, so they they said their american factor and then they have said that they're gonna make our cities though they ve been a little bit more vague about that, and the story came out. I forget tat goes exact statement, but it was about being true to its commitment to its content as long as was continents it committed to it or something like that. To that effect, it will be a good partner to introduce that are a good partner fox con. That's basically olives added, but their latest statements about what you're doing is

as else it is, this whole thing could have been for them if they actually built in elsie plant risk in kid who grew up to be tech, editor and display nerd tour elsie factor Instead, there you're hot racine kid I editor diverge very upset about traffic is moms house, may Josh write about it for two years. I'm just say those are the branching pass that they they ve been on? talk about some of the things I ve tried to do, passionate sorry their building a sphere what's in this year, this the original plan for this fear it wise According to employees and the initial planning documents, as it was going to be the dot in and I spelling out f I hire, which is an acronym for foxconn industrial internet, the faction company that ended up taking over the projects. The sphere itself was going to be the network operation center for that data center by it's five hundred executives when they saw how much a data center costs didn't want to do it, but terry

Why does he s got a suit you I wouldn't want to sphere there. Are there plans to have it ready for a travel ban, and so they went up with the sphere. It may be going to be some sort of event. Space office, space Is there either there's no dataset that they had certainly brought in a a modular data center which is sort of a shipping container kind of thing that they're going to plug into it? For the event that seems increasingly unlikely to happen, but yeah, there's a half built sphere must not going to be an exotic tree farm. Right. Yes, what's so they they accidently by too much land for the sphere. from the other subsidiary that listen, lands and terry

I really wanted treat in the sphere and so briefly, and executive proposed starting a tree farm around the sphere to grow the trees for the sphere and then sell the trees to recoup some losses, but they were trees that wouldn't grow there right We're supposed to tropical trees of some sort and ignore indians in wisconsin Can I tell you it's very cold there cassock a fundamental question before we get into more of that hilarious, and also terrible and sad parts. How much of this? What percentage of this is a story about incompetence, and what percentage of this is a story about rift like it? How and how like sincere, was fox caught in the beginning of building something how sincere they now and how much it it was just what they never actually intend to do. Anything as this was always some kind of scam. In the first place. It's real!

hard to pin down, and I think a lot of it comes down to just organizational dysfunction, and so you have terry using build a factory make this happen. He is clearly getting a lot out of it. It is getting regular access to the white house when they say they're, not building a factory trump calls them so he's invested in that sense by you have all these subsidiaries, that are responsible for their own profitability and don't wanna, be cost, airs and wendy. Told to go in there stall and used to spend money and approve expenses. Until you have this cycle aware, various foxhound people promises great things and then see how much they cost or it got to be I read somewhere up the chain and then nothing happens. It's it's just kind of a mess. It's a it's! Not! I don't know that they ever set out to deceive the les that certainly have

ben transparent about what they're doing and are continuing to exist there doing what what terry said, they're gonna do by it. I just every single thing: they try clothes so that with the one it just I of come back to this year, I can't stop talking. This is my favorite just more insight baseball. So working on the story. We always knew we wanted out now timber for the election. Felt like we are raising the sphere. The item Jonathan at that Josh. That's how I felt like we're not done. We have this lengthy fact. Checking process that had to go through our lawyers, our creative director will have to design the thing we had to show this work to do justice. Writing it in every day, we're like looking at ted twitter feed the guy flies. A drone

foxconn to be like how close is the sphere yeah, we knew that the sphere was related to the trump event that was supposed to happen and soon something big was going to happen. Reporting could become out of date was my big concern felt like we had to beat the sphere and so they're they're they're racing to get the sphere up were racing. The story to finish before the sphere is up, and every day goes by and there's another level of glass on the sphere Kim Mahoney is the person the one person who didn't who refused to get. Located and lives now sort of in the factories own lives next to the sphere and would send pictures of the sphere It is very fun if you go. If you look at our photos and then we have some aerial photos you going to fox on aerials and you look at that factory site. It's like the three big empty buildings in the sphere and one very nice

western, suburban home. Just sort of like in the middle of it, but just next, let's hear something that is again. I keep saying it sad. Eighty houses got torn down for this project. People got relocated. Those people seem increasingly so even if I got paid everything they seem increase, we have said that they were like dislocated for a prodigal is causing come to fruition, yeah. It is hugely disruptive to lots of people and there was not really any reason to it is foxconn built something that's one twentieth the size of what they were supposed to. I know Kim's upset and one I've seen with her homeowners who are upset about it and have people who put up with the traffic from all the highway construction that was supposed to be needed for all the workers who want to come. Work in his factory are upset about it. A lot of people upset that the state went so all end on something that was not real, I once I what is the gauls courts? I mean there's Everyone should read Josh's story. It is full story after story of Michael,

scale nonsense. I think you would like ever coming to work in just watching netflix all days like incredible I want to stay on the rubbish in actual people. whose lives words were altered by this thing? Is there any way out for them? I think Everyone is kind of a remarkable mess in that. I don't think it really worked out well for anyone, including foxconn, I think everyone has sort of stuck him in the state- keeps saying they'll renegotiate the contract, if and tell them what they're doing buckskin refuses to tell them. What they're doing very obvious like salute? like while advice on, say what they're doing, because ample they try to build an awful upon a fish farm in italy, I dont know what happens now this theirs, they started manufacturing servers, but it's a pretty small operation. Maybe they'll do that in one of the buildings they feel they have a lot of buildings now that they could use for something

but no for all the reasons, a project never really made sense. It doesn't make sense to do a lot in them. Labour costs supply chains, I don't really know what happens it seems I made if I I works out of there for a while on hires engineers than its to sort of a small company in wisconsin that has more land that it knows what to do with the tree. For him, So I want to talk whether golf carts, but I want to there's only means so we memes created out of this company over the past two years. I want to Golf cart in the context of a k, plus five g, which is the ecosystem fox on building. If you remember, I received a very set email, I'm guessing. I think I know the facts and executives and three once, but the very upset email insisting that we leave them alone and in explaining what a k five g is. What weakness can just on jackson is,

atmosphere for finally playing a. I meant new generation, mobility and self driving cars is that the story we were running german okay ak mean smart safety security through ak technology. I mean c'mon neil. I should know this. Five g means pioneering way: medical solutions, the crabs, that's to me on some health clown network, but that seemed very connected did in racine, with smart cities they were going to have legs valence golf carts with court, like cameras over them. What what happened there? So it's pretty, emblematic of everything that went wrong with the projects? Do you had this executive albania? who is running around me was supposed to be paving the way for all the other

subsidiaries that were going to move in and make things by its was always sort of running around starting these pretty buzz worthy side projects like the innovation centers, smart cities things like that, so he was shopping around the smart cities idea, which was and is like other company, I'm smart cities initiative centres ay. I things that are supposed to make municipalities run better on and worked out a partnership with the city of foreseen. Where they would have been no uninstall, gee. They would have self driving golf carts that would, in capacity be sort of these security, like I'm sort of drones,

security vehicles that would drive around and do surveillance in high crime areas and high crime areas like quite problematic on its own words and then also fairy workers to coxcombs wonderful campus. but when it came down and until they they submitted to this word, ricin won the award and said he was like alright, let's start making this a reality and then foxconn couldn't get clear answers about what technology it had access to or costs are timelines or anything like that and then killed. The project is now it really dominant, spend money on this and so Alan got as far as ordering a bunch of golf carts which were quite low quality according to several until his and then another day other could make an autonomous. They just put them in a building that they build, that had no purpose and it was just an empty warehouse. People go raised them around

I mean that's like I was texting, was so my friends in wisconsin and there like yeah, story, I, like the sound the dream job. If I have to be honest, like you gotta work, you watch netflix in youtube all day you can register a golf cart if you want what's the problem, That's a good argument. I don't I didn't great response that one there is ever so much more, but I think we have to talk about plays by foxen. If only because I, my single favorite line that has ever been published on the verge, which is work, as we work itself would prove is not it business, but what is But what was going on with placement, because it's connected to the empty buildings, yeah yeah, so, okay, so the the first backfire got started. I was trying to figure out what was going on. I went to wisconsin and that and also his innovation centers, that hadn't opened so

around to all the innovation that addresses and saw they were empty and we re a series of stories sang innovation centres are empty and our young would say there not empty and point out there still anti when I say that I've been torturing Josh for years. I hope you can hear that it needs I mean it's a pretty evergreen. I had always been really curious. Why that plan as for years, and I have found out that the plan was to turn them into we works. Apparently I'm had been a big admire and we work and wanted to start a. We work business that was called blaze in which the fox han would run co working spaces, in various points in his hands, and these are just random

buildings are they bought during walkers political campaign. There are particularly strategically while location They all needed major reservations, and so it is now the company wouldn't approve funding to renovate the buildings and he kept trying to make plays happen and the hired people and Had people start working inside plans and then they never work. The go ahead and tat their anti. love the fact that we work was a bad business when they owned by them. The biggest lan landlord in manhattan, without some of them as prime real estate and where the most bustle Economic cities in the united states and a collapsed alyosha is like like I'm by building, though clare wisconsin, Oh claire's, a nice town man, it's a nice time, legislate in there. Building they have there is we have a picture of it's empty, but it's like on the water

very nice spot ages. I dont think that if we can do it in Manhattan, in san francisco and los angeles and all places they are. I don't think that fast I could do was wisconsin. Okay, last one josh, I'm going to ask you, which is your: what is your favorite of the little foxconn to buckles problem with a fish farm that was that was that was the most surprising tangent that I had found, and you know it makes a crazy kind of sentence that they had a bunch of cheap water that the state had provided for Did you manufacturing and there is a lack of panic. Fish farm business in northern was handsome, but I guess Alan thought was a good idea, and so there is a plan to run an occupying a fish farm in the park, and it does. Canada is gonna, wonder about the fox on projects that if they just pivoted spheres in a fish farm, stop pretending

making ass. It is to bring those together right, like sphere, is a fish farm but russia, I am floating aquariums. It's funny has that you know through these, like lawn at its I kept on like making the pair asked about the sphere like way: meaner and Josh, kept hunting, like you have not be so mean. I think this fear sucks. I'm just going to be honest. Everybody if you look at the sphere like amazon's headquarters in seattle, are spheres. They are architectural marvels. Just go. Look at it. apple, just built giant sphere, retail store in singapore, marina basement like go, look at its it, it's literally a floating sphere in the water slick and architectural marvel in an fox on his thick did scope I kept on writings in combat in the ep. One areas on smears blocks gun sucks in georgia. We like now you gotta,

its burn down a little bit, though it sphere looks a lot like the biosphere from ex post, sixty seven in montreal. That was it. On fire. I was. I pointed out that when I was a kid in wisconsin, my parents would drag me. My mom loves botanical gardens they would always drag me too. The Mitchell part observatory, which is three biosphere. It's like a desert one there's a tropical wine and asked we gotta say the sphere sucks compared even the Mitchell park ones, and I do this park ones about my fifties and seventies and concrete falls ceiling and they found nets. This year's to catch the buying of can't I in my turn, while down so as to take that step. it's better than that sphere, so I kind of story ass, you already what happens next, but it does feel like that. ex turn is the election we talked about our young alot,

ireland has gone just for mega on twitter like all day every day, his dislike tweeting manga stuff, that's a very obvious there tying a future to trump being re elected in some way. What happens if that doesn't play out the window? I don't know, I mean I'd yeah. I think there is a sentiment and play. Is that what five thousand I do now John the election and you're gonna get that from terry statement very talks about how never even really considered wisconsin until intel trump tells us to go there and we enjoy working with trump and look forward to working with trumpet, not saying you know, The presidential administration, given that this like two no weak away on,

I don't really know I mean to some external partners might be stuck there. They're supposed they're, contractually obligated to keep paying mount pleasant as if they built what they said they were going to build. I don't know how solid that contract is. If, if I can decide to leave There are other forces at work. Fox kind does need to expand internationally and if it s just seen, is burning places it expands in the fall short in that might be more difficult. On the other hand, it's a company that so lean, it doesn't give people office supplies, and so I don't see it just forking over millions of dollars to small town in wisconsin for the years and years it would need to in that contract. Don't really know what they do. It's possible. They eke out a small manufacturing presence there and keep paying their bills or if they could just throw a fit and leave. I don't really know

I'm like I'm betting on through certain weave. That was the right areas statement isn't even in charge of these on the board, but he retired, he's out the india. It feels that he still reigns company. That's the way it falls to me to his exact influence as hard to pin down are used. A major shareholder and on the board ends holds a lot of sway. He was very involved with the project. He was breakaway me up, having over on his way to and from the white house. I don't have a ton of insight into the exact decision making processes, I'm leaderships, I'm not really sure if he throws effect, if the only ivar or other work, but certainly seem from his statement that that's what would happen. in this all just remind me of the last thing I want you to talk about, which is the expense approval process, a fox on

This is a recurring theme. Recurring explanation for the many problems in the project is that they never really out of budget people would always have to send approval approvals back to tie one and with no fear many different levels and sort of anyone who was always changing and at any one along the the way said. Oh, I never heard of this expense it's denied, and so it would take months for anything to get approved at one point everything had to run true someone that was only ever referred to as money mama. No one could tell where her real name, his they speculated that she was related to tarry by, but even at that

quite senior level. They said everyone collar money, mamma and so that a lot of what we know from the innovation centres till I printing business cards, ter hiring people, many things I fell apart in that process. Someone would we be tat night. I heard from people who never got paid back for parking for travel, for whatever we had people bring in their own computers, pencils their own. I t equipment el, the building right in kazakhstan wooden pay for things. It's incredible also, you know only on there is no. They are not like software, so they had. I got free trial, account of others, three sixty five and they were either sign up for fake emails to get new free trials or be given new free trial code. By people. It's incredible. I think I keep threatening josh. Yes,

an entire second story of things that the story is like ten thousand words long. So we cut a lot. We really had to ratchet it out to keep it from being twenty thousand words. There's a lot of condensation It happened. I I says every week we ve gone over. We just have this The show whether it was we and our long, we we it's never an hour, but we so technically was gone over again. Josh. Thank you so much I haven't read Josh destroyed, one of the world it's on the site. It is two years of effort for money very focused effort. One of the more ambitious things we've ever published. Please check it out. Thank you so much for dimly. Adam jokes, that's really only when I wanted from this. What I'm here for Said julia react earlier. on tuesday. I know we can talk about the iphone twice moves at all Joanna stern is going to join us on the tooth episode, Moreno deep into those reviews, there's also just

in other reviews, I should call out to you to review the ipad air dan reviewed that and the echo, which is a sphere yup, see a well executed sphere sounds like yeah. Well, it's complete it and it actually is connected to a data center cause amazon and chris will tribute the beeswax just like tons of reviews on the site. You can tweet at us, I'm at reckless on twitter or teeters at backline areas at the decks jerky josh's at Josh. Jessa dz are easy, a and Julia's at loudmouth. We're love to hear from you once again we're back on tuesday and that's a little bit later and if he came for the athens we're a couple days, tuesday, areas with Joanna stern. That's it rattle.

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