This week on the verge? Has Tom Warren joins us? Talk about albany's from microsoft, build Laszlo, Pado joins us, took what this week in IRAN. It was a week in and and Ashley carman joins us to talk about. Spotify is a big investment in the podcast. Worse, that's coming up on the virtuous hey, I'm ryan, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge the little so naturally when they announced that we raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you that's right, we're cutting the price, I meant unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It mint mobile dot com, slash switch new activation and upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply cement, mobile dot com for full terms.

Support for the show comes from shop, apply to run a successful on my business. All you need is an idea and shop. If I can take care of the rest. Shop of rye is a commerce platform to help run your business and their flexible templates and powerful tools make building and managing On my presence, simpler than ever, you can sign up for a one dollar a month trial period at shop if I'd dot, com, slash, vocs business, all lowercase visit shop if I'd dot com, slash box business to see of shop. If I can take your business to the next level today, that's shop a five hour come slash, vocs, business The what can the recast flagship podcast the pandemic that's more like a horror movies- and I want so pretend I said something better me, I'm your friend data about us here. How do how to in my living room, instead of in a closet today very excited,

he's a room here. We all need to get out we're going to we're going to see if we can take some of the reverb, often post so stay tuned. For that I'm gonna sound like a robot by the end of it, I'm really excited here's one. it will have Andrew do that first part without any processing andrew than process it from now yeah. we'll see poor aunt alive. Tested at europe's citizens, daft on Timor, is here hello, tom toms, we're here to talk about, build which happen we should build lots and he's format would have wished lot of on to do this. We can view on just a lot of you on happening. Dismay, and then Ashley carmen isn't going the end. Let's talk about the enormous spotify podcasting moves are happening path, show is always just want start with some quick updates on the pandemic and the colonel viruses. Going on. We interviewed sooner, but try this week. It's in the feed we push on tuesday, we

I see asked sundar about the website in the flow chart. He have a very diplomatic answer. I will say very, very diplomatic answer, but that said it is week ten and is ten weeks since trump and his team held up the flowchart and promised a website where would get tested? I'm just going to keep counting. I am going to counting forever when we listen to show five years from now is all be over. I must say it's week, four thousand no stone outflows once that's it is weak. Ten were keeping track I did tell us that rarely is in thirteen states have eighty six sites, it's not enough, but they're working. I he said it is gone slower than they antithesis. It was an interesting day week for energy is on the verge of cedar, and I interviewed sooner but try kay, in newton interviewed, mark Zuckerberg facebook is taking tens of thousands of employees and moving to remote first work. They can work from home. So interview about how he's going to manage that one thing both soon

and Zuckerberg said to us, which is interesting. I orange interesting about it that when you first go in, you end up working from home. In this moment everyone kind of knew what to finishing their projects. The big question is: when you have to do new stuff so case it ought to casey about that. We talk to us in our budget. gosh I got that interviewed. It's super interesting, just some other stuff like us at its second order virus stories. Now wanna kitchen, a great story. A bunch of high school students took their a p exams remotely too they handle their answers and the appeal tests Then they took pictures of their answers and tried to submit them to the server. The server didn't tell them and he was not wrong and crash out and they ran out of time in the window to submit the answers. It's because the college board that administers the piigs test didn't support hsc photos which is the default on the iphone. So all the students have,

We take their test in three weeks, which has just horrible. The company's statement on this is quote. We share the deep disappointment of students who are unable to submit responses. It's like it's like this body. If somebody punches, you they face, and I share the deep disappointment that you feel right now about the bruise underneath your eyes. What is very bad? We actually have a follow up, and each year see coming because this is sort of like I never think about it. I know I do not think whether back on my phone takes each year superheroes excel. when we are reviewing another phone and we do phone like photo comparisons, and I've got like one set of photos or an iphone. That is in some way before me. I can't share and imo is like that's it edged case. No one else gets not so turns out. Many people have a lot of feelings. Were each you see in the patents underneath it wherever jobs, it's not really. We went from like a virus oriented straight up, averred story, but what s really Amazon is delaying prime day until september. As it works unrest,

Ring normal shipping speeds, not a second order pandemic story. We followed up and followed up and how new york city is gonna use, powerful uv lights on their subways in buses to kill the virus is a cleaning strategy. I think that is very. Interesting use technology and, lastly, we always pay attention the fcc. You might recall that at the sort of beginning of all this fcc chairman ajit pie did something called the keep america connected pledge, where he just sort of asked, I sps to promise that they would have lower prices for disadvantaged people that they would. We cancel service. If you don't have a bunch of stuff all voluntary everybody signed up for it. The fcc has received hundreds of complaints about this pledge. Jumping mat mat from carriers on That is an ongoing story. It is the pandemic progressive and more more people unemployed having conductivity I, as we all know more important than ever,

How is your cigar respond to pressure now from congress to actually turn this from a bond? Her thing to something with teeth: ongoing, sorry, it we're tracking, well so Doesn't the ssc wanna give all power to do that to the f tc? It's really. It's really unclear. If they actually see things, anyone should have this power. I think I think the answer is they they screwed up by asking this to be voluntary. They should have bound all of these carriers by the force of pinky swear and then everything would be They would have had more weight than the web page. That they did put up we'll see, Pie wants to be seen as a guy who does stuff, but he also wants to be a guy who totally devolves all power from the government. Those are incompatible ideas figured it out. Yet you can't be the high ro in also do nothing we'll see what was to see what happens there.

I mean that's the list of virus stories. There's a lot going this week, there's way more coverage, including oliver sciences, right coverage on the site. There actually were more stories about the second order effects on the site, but a lot going on this week. So I just wanted to focus on that list. Alright, tom, yes, microsoft, build and this week it was a virtual event. They actually split up sort of product announcements. We covered all service stuff. Last week. This was sort of the developer. There. tells me. Yes, I do consider it. Holding seattle this year they did some kind of new and he was kind of like I know it's kind of like a tv show less. have a model down, so think of, like that. The family upside, whereas will shorten smartphones and no us up that's what they will do exactly on some kind of like her. His I'm in your ear, you know, I'm I am a developer. You are a developer or developers solving. That was a big thing like, let's just focus on developers again. What did you think of it? I thought the presentation was genius.

like it felt like that tv show butter family up several, also sort of felt like sort of like a little bit of like sometimes you're, just like in a tent, conference you're just having a meeting, they felt he jumped on like the mics of teams meeting, and you were like chains that be you and you won't change for them, but they would like talking to you, you know like yeah, like so much better than I think one plus tried to do a full on keynote, unlike black void stage and adjust was super awkward. So I don't I've got a nose, apple and Google. Will google just doing like sankara hundred presentation other teaser for george to care hit, but I do know of apple It's gonna have the added on the thirty to want to think as creators microsoft it. I thought it was an incredible how quickly they came up with a brand new format that worked the egg, I get the feeling they just let scott huntsmen the guy, who is molly now, but you know just linked to it. For light. There is any like in act, is knocking on his door every five seconds saying: don't do that ended it. It was just like you know. We need to be like a little bit human here and not like you know

sales pitch and all that stuff, and I figured wept it was it was entertaining and it was super nerdy, those of nerdy stuff hidden in throughout the keynote and stuff it's fun. They hit the right now. If he were the export stuff, they d never weak, they kind of choice, do and eat free. You know like smoke mirrors station and stuff, or they just didn't, really work out. So, whereas this was a bit more human, so what sort of china have. I knew you had a big story about the fluid office talking it there's a lot of history here, was trying to explain what this is kind of a peal. Apart that history limit based how to explain without saying, like they say, if you think of like google docs, and the way you collaborative kirk collaboratively work on that without the people. Think of like a table or like a chop and figure individually is like a module like that. You might waste into another up a much those two like combined with google docs, and ask

of what this is. So, like you create a table wines item out. Local, they say slept You create tabling slack, you do submitted to it he placed in an email, someone else who receives a gmo will be edited real time from their email, watching looking at slack and seeing it changed their size calmly. You don't spend, trying to be everywhere and night modular was modular eyes. that's the one I think of is it's a way for different elements of different documents to sort of get remixed in two different forms. All the the place yeah that basically and then there's a separate part just like what they call a fluid workspace, which is essentially just a fluid document where you have all of these modular components in one. So that's kind of like a google doc that you'd have normally and you can either pull those modules. some pasting elsewhere, sir, are you when you say- and you see people using a real time economic sense, but like the challenge,

I have all of this is getting developers again to adopt to get it to be like a standardized format and to do that they're, open sourcing it so thus does like a good sign that they know and are just going to shove. This this- and I hope everyone adopts It- they're gonna, like China, actually listen the community in time, make a thing what developers today do they need, like the examples you've just given I've working in a word document and I want to pull in a table from excel or a chart from excel and have that data be living. So if somebody edits the excel document, the table updates while that's happening in office anyway. What do they? What do they need developers to also like when you copy component. Your basically copying a euro to document is still a document, the individual components is still documents like that that structures in going away, because you just you, can't do that on the whip. It doesn't just magically appear

Are you paste that euro in a client doesnt support the flute component? Then it just is just a of the euro so they need developers to render that contained within their acts in the same way for star and then The other thing I want to do is to like enable developers have so say you ve gotta, had engine databases on it. and you want a particular string in that to be dynamic and update freely, be doing to rewrite the whole app to be collaborative, and will you create an app and manages like? If how do we use this together? You can that their idea is that your baby, get developers to then changed stretch out strings sedative their fluid. kind of interesting as well like. I didn't exactly how they going to do that. They didn't really show that yet they still sort of work in these ideas for but the things in behind that is kind of interesting cause that does not get. It goes way beyond what we're doing right now, so so they need developers on. all sides to adopt this thing for us to really take off. You need everybody

The render your little fluid office module thing inside the app, so it like, if you don't use outlook, but instead he used, you know apple mail or whatever, when you get to one of these fluid axel. Actually, work inside tat are inside slack or discord or whatever, so any that just unjustly everyone to like now adopt whatever their version of ivory. I love the idea of discord. Users like live editing, excellence, and it is far from certain facts which streams of like excel. Consent games being played in so I dont know. If this is true, I hope it's true. If you, if you're out there, was this If you know of my twitter streamers work, it's like hard core excel users Just then, I would love to watch that if there is like a hot, or excel twitched person that its internet, it's exist, she'll, be somebody, of course we're in a profile. The hard core excels would share but then, on the other side there they d, like we ve, we ve all like all these types of documents are basically like little durations of like

stocks are powerpoint or whatever. Hoping and deserted, going like I'd like interoperable framework, like little baby absence, you can bet anywhere little baby like utilities and that's what they're open sourcing or is this really about getting other acts to show microsoft stocks yeah, I think it is more about the entire framework, so is not just about showing that document it's. It's like she about getting entire framework so that you can use in any up. Many doesn't have to be their modules in europe like it's. It's let's see the underlying technology as well, so their purpose in the whole of which should be The next few weeks so upholding a little bit more about their thinking on what people, how people can she could contribute to it What sort of things they will do in the next few months to enable lesson politely, they swim. I it last year is the focus was more like it. Looked like a google dots competitor in knows that they've had similar stuff on office to come for awhile.

where you can clamorously whatsoever and soup babies super fast and wants to stop this like their thinking, is also gone way beyond that. The initial at first title issued some instinct to echo I don't wanna overdo it, there's a old chance? We talk about this for an hour? If we ever do it, could you could but there's a lot of history behind this conceptual idea, right microsoft itself had a product called early object, linking in embedding which components away saying choice. You could make apple famously had a version of this in a ninety is called open, doc that seem job somewhat more famously killed. He actually used the phrase bullet in the head, to refer to his killing of opened, ok, yeah. This is a dream right that you're going to have one document with live data from multiple other documents that can be edited in multiple places. once the dream has not panned out. Historically, why do you? Why does? Why? Do you think it might pan out this time? What is microsoft? Thinking about this time? Yeah I mean, I think, might

in the way that their approaching it in the way that the integrated into the into office and stuff makes it possible it depends. I think it really depends on the imf. Station there and how they can bring. Two windows into tool wraps like widely used because they they can kind of force adoption in a way they Then they really leveraging teams is like the hub for which is worthless these four every time it took that teams psyches our hub for everything, and I think a lot work your sea going into teams in and, if not will be, relates fluid, I think, is the idea of getting people stay within that up and that's a big thing to me: It contains. Rights are If you're at work eve, open, microsoft, teams, shop, someone there's a war dock with you, you actually never, go to open where just added inside of teams, because it's a fluid doc and that change carries over everywhere else

the un and in the times are, and what now imagine then, having half your team to the left of that word, document talking collaboratively talking in and changing just as you it in an office. I was taken away like a kind of It makes sense around that sort of thinking and the way that things are potentially going in the world, be, I think the the their core idea is is to meet people whether to work, and I think this shifting their thinking around jumping in and out of ups, the seeing with love collaborative whip stops doing greedy, innovative stuff, the only friends office rent, and that's that as the law thing that no one really been able to shake off the office addiction exe. well. This is there's nothing really that that comes close to that sort of stuff so and that's it to the to the the hold they have on their market. So so I think it is definitely inspired by that protecting office, but I gotta say at some point: they're. Basically, just

inventing an operating system inside a chat. Client like I think, that's the direct route like they're going to need. Windowing, you know, you're going to be able to manage like file types are like fluid types you're going to need to be able to like. Where does your no girl. What is this thing do? What is, I think, do any of these it's all calamitous or take a different frameworks. But fundamentally, I feel like we're just for just do the same: again, but inside a chat up instead of on a desktop also for eventually becomes excel. Now Excel is eventually going to have an operating system. It's going to take over the world yeah yeah, okay. So that's fluid the open knocks off to me, like the connection to that big. Ninety stream is there and I just want to point it out to people again. I don't want to overdo it cause that stuff I'll just like died on the vine, but this is a long dream. Like people have had this idea of live multimodal documents for a long time, it is remarkable that microsoft

families, bring it back cause. I mean they tried it like twice or three times, but they're, bringing it back with a different name. They're not like mentioned the other way, and what is particular remarkable is like they might pull it off this time this time before was always like it was a google wave like there was another cut, yeah? But you would imagine like a sigh fi alternate future or you're, like a be so great. If everybody use this I'd like it was so alternate and sigh fi that I could never got there, but in theory the stuff that matters to you. This thing, like we ve all developed to the point where, like this, actually see The actual problems in the real world now not wouldn't be we'll have to solve problems. You know in five years and we're all living in the future yeah. I think the biggest difference this time is that when apple tried it in the nineties in it that they were struggling company has any ways? They don't really have the the back into ready, pulled it off and the influence and the biggest a faint. The biggest thing that's different from my error now is that makes us doing open source which is kind of like an hour

this. Guy is open source basic. I still kind of crazy has thought the microsoft even five years ago, ten years ago, they wouldn't have done in this way. I don't think likely that the changes that I've seen that they doing at the company being so much more open, even with windows, knowing that come on like ten twenty years we're not going to be reliant on windows anymore. They know that said, I think they're bracing for that, and they know that they need to be elsewhere. They they need to be open, and they even admit this week we were on opensource. It's just that if things that thinking the shifts this is different this time and they have they have the the user base to leverage as well. which is quite a powerful thing, but I would say also that if a guy tells you can overdo it, if we do feel like it, apple shipping computers like the four megabytes of ram, and they built a browser that you could embed in every other application. complain about electron apps eating our computers, like eight digs of ram and apples like what, if you could,

better browser every app on four megabytes of ram. It was not going to succeed even even right now we're talking in a web browser or video chatting. This would have been unthinkable, it can it ten years ago, in light of the way that we're doing it right now so yeah, so you brought up windows. Opening up. That's another huge part of it happening, build linux gear. Apps can now run on windows. They are getting closer and closer to lennox overtime expire, it's gonna on, so they have. They ve had a project called windows, substances subsystem phthalates, which essentially things I mean it didn't before, but this this year and in an update is coming in a couple of weeks. You get a full linux kernel inside windows, which is also kind of insane marshall brain linux, to windows, which is ok, you'll never imagined, that in your world, the streams and so fast? That part now that enables like a load of tif work, alleged stuff that

doesn't really you and I wouldn't use thought what this gooey part of it does is you can basically get an a linux, app player? You wanna run a firefox version of linux that lets a linux firefox version side by side when a windows version you can so those basic linux apps and it might be it not be a ton of them, but the most important part of it all is that it's all power If hardware cheap, you hardly solution, which is something that was missing and which is a lot developers Dana I'm machine learning, work every night been clamouring for and the most him. crazy party, or is there actually building a dark tax drivers and the system for the next? so it's not gonna, be native to linux, is gonna, be specifically for the windows, subsystem, filaments, I specifically omen does so, but this kind of christ the building directives, will, in its attention, That's going on this that some pack, it was

this. This is just like a lot of things even five years ago, you'd say that will never happen in and this is I you brought this up earlier. This scheme is related to there's a future for windows. They understand what it is, but it is not the future words the center of the universe inside the theirs. rotting out yeah. I think the main reason they're doing this is not necessarily the fear of other people against what reason windows, I think, is the fear that the realisation that developing system so much about using windows. Easing it's elise and mac to develop apps and web apps and there's a nose. Dive environments are just better on a macro message: it was based on Unix if he got a lot of that stuff just baked in, whereas on windows, it's always just been ignored and denied linux has ruled the server world. So I think it's more in getting them back to having a good death books to offer developers, and then they can bring them in and go at once.

people running windows Then they suddenly want to build absolute windows cause it's the client that they using you local weather I built like a nice which is kind of you in the back. Would he have beautiful, beautiful, designed acts that the very functional well with we used to have a this. Brings me to the last thing which, once I understand the same time. I'd understand it and in a third way, think it is just like a deeply five farce, It is a universal windows, apps and regular windows. Absent We know how project reunion leaders have to tell you what the hell is going on with us, because it, it seems like a forty fifth attempt to do something with windows. Ads in the store, so I think this is something that's been kind of going on behind the scenes for like the last couple of years we know the universe whip, the universe windows apps, just haven't really they regional vision of the money across your phone, your exposure-

you in those like that. Just yet hasn't worked, say so depths of just wanted. update their own winfrey too apt to make them look pretty him, make them a bit more modern, but not lose. Let go. We can call the modern, because I was an aim of windows apps. It's like crazy. They bought in to take those apps and not fundamentally reshape them into the no touch based ones and whatever, so that work has been going on for a couple of years. So now it's got an official name, which is put it. The union budget, centrally unifying. winfried desktop ups and the utopia ups and ap eyes, the shared between us and what it based He means say like is one version of windows time. We faint cry for this, not it's all split into like two updates a year, so there's a separate versions and they will have different apia versions. So mexico's own shipping, great you a you can do, is crazy. Stop Europe, thus grey. If you're in the latest version windows, which is like you know,

the latest version virus voting or some other and in the old developers, don't go for those appeals because they just not like not everyone's got what version of windows yet so now they're going to like polyfill the april. It's down to these older versions of windows. He said Davis, don't have to worry about it. It just automatically translate see like a pos. So they can adopt these new features quicker, and I have to worry about supporting the people here and spices. Don't tippy take the lace update for them The comparison I would make here is Google place services where were you just described, is how google manages andred versions, which is No, that samsung isn't gonna up data phone and three years old, but google as play services, and they can just make sure the latest apps work on old operating systems, because there's a place services amy that they d, draw, is that is at the same idea kind of similar is a similar solve like solve way of doing things, but it is

Secondly, that the aim is to get people, I think they realise that people, I'm gonna, build these new touch by stops. So let's get like make it easier for them. It's like adopts the most modern windows features and I'd have to worry about. The the oda windows, so they can just update they the we'll be more modern. Nice tailbone, listen, touch, features and wants, as the revamped worry about the older versions. Does this mean that we're gonna like actually see no more apps, The windows store that feel like they belong like that. Take advantage of windows like your windows features or just mean that everybody that's making the same old mouse driven apps will now. Finally, like just make em look loaded nicer, you know like I think he could. He could mean a little bit of both but like the windows store, so that you can update and and make your app a little more modern without him to make into a store up like what what the story

he's like a sand, boxing sort of experience and no every developing. Just that- and you know we seen atlas- there's not a bunch of them in it's, not the apps that we use every day, and so I think, we'll see yeah. I think people are spicy, because this is when you are free, which is when one of the big puzzle, portrait reunion it's about allowing these older window two apps to get the solve of modern you why the economy get in these, I don't dunno, what's called gwp apps essentially, but like the touch based apps, the that you get So what are we gonna? Call these apps windows. Ups. That's what makes us wants us to call windows apps, but like we have what we have many different ways: further like their latest. This is how you should make apps now they're, basically price sing too abstract all that away. So no us worry about anymore. They just windows apps, but I dont believe and we're gonna need a word fears. I will say the great with the greatest mistake: microsoft has ever made since dropping metro.

It sucks- it's so not the greatest mistake. Microsoft is ever permitted, but, yes, they called the metro, apps and then the german grocery stores sued them for trademark infringement and they pay the grocery store and they should have just paid the groceries and now no one knows that there are called in. I I contend for the sake of this podcast that that is the greatest mistake. Microsoft I ever made they should made they the have By being, I think them saying you that just windows, apps, is definitely a step down from the pisa have it's just a realisation that this hasn't worked, so that is a pretty huge walk back like outside of it, but metro, there was a time when microsoft was saying. This is the future of the windows platform touch. First, this led to the first surface hardware right mean this was an entire massive corporate strategy for them, and now it seems like it is fully walked back

I think like, and they even did it- I mean when I, when I spoke to Joe belfiore last year for the edge piece like he. He even kind of admitting that piece that there was no constraints that were working around fifty. Have they browser based on new delhi, p, just for the sake of it. office on the sea haven't really gone there and it's all these like problems that they even had from their own teams, not wanting to adopt an she get that leafiest? If you haven't bought european latin, when there's just about sitting around like twenty four years you, don't just sunday overnight, sandbox them secure them and completely change the hole in the face of upset at that take some some time they should have What they doing now back then, like gradually people sunday modernize at a very high level. What I feel like happened here is they looked at. I found it especially the ipad. Like oh shit,

I think it's great battery life and those absolute feel super fast because are extremely limited. What they can do and there is a massive developer ecosystem making stuff and it's crazy virtuous cycle. We want that. So, let's do that, but for what as an and to somehow transition everybody over that new thing. And everyone is like, or I could just not be stuck in a tight. little sandbox and I could keep making the app do. What I wanted to do and then they just like David, were stuck in that for like almost a decade. Anxious for ever is definitely the at fail, I can imagine they'd sold the ipad and we were like. Oh this isn't that stuff, and I think we all think you know ipad would get to the soft laptop kidding phase, but it that's another. Forty five the fact that they have an account sure I mean the ipad the limit. Feature set of ios did not allow ipad, apps developed may or may not be changing. Another can of worms.

tat, I think, brings me to actually the next set of stuff that happened. Microsoft, dieter, go to review is out. There is thirteen point five and surface, but three talking to esa tablets about the fifteen. It has put three, I think in his in his hands right now. My might using it does it even as we speak note right now, they have it, have it next to their both their both expect bumps right I of course, of the series go to they. They gave you an option for a better processor and that the screen is bigger. But fundamentally, to me this earth's surface book two. Is that the time you spec it out? to what you need to have it be like a real computer that isn't just like a thing you get it Can you do their homework? You might or by a reform surface pro, six or seven and you'll get a bigger screen faster processor, a better experience, but really really must have a tiny computer and that tiny computer must run windows. Then There's, nothing else is check. Advised things have to buy the surface, go to

yeah, who works out, as I must have a tiny window. Simply dieter. It's me, I can. I think, a lot of people see that free nine nine press that the stick approach well, I feel super conflicted about that price, because it's actually for ninety nine gives you gotta by a keyboard, but then, like does that super base? model with its slow storage and not enough ram at a slow processor like who is at four who gets did use out that's why so they give it to your kid to do their homework, that there is a place for computers like that. You know. Just like there is a place for that books. I just don't think that play should cost five hundred box, which is historically the target, an epoch, praise late they stood still have occurring book. That's that's the problem. They don't have an operating system. Like there s, no tom command did detroit tell me that you took the go to out of asthma like thirty minutes or something yeah took its authority.

I forget what it was Zoom. I think that made you at this point in time tell us what the big three get either, but free is kind of like the book. who is like, let my muscles isn't that last couple of days is it feels like the book too. It looks like a bit to say: there's not a lot of difference. I think I'll be struggling. Farmers different. Really I like the differences leave because speedier society, whether the model I'm ravine, doesn't have that another detachment, in the hinges, foster yeah. I forgot to note that at has on east is is minimal. There, like is still, is to press it, and you have to wait for years, How does the same mrs suspect, bump? Really do we have figure out if the book architecture, tweeted ass, is really not. now here, listening that so do I three weeks, two weeks ago,

I said I don't believe anybody who uses the service book ever pulls the display after Everything's hain, I haven't, don't do this, I'm doing it to get work I haven't this letter that costs because they boxes they replies. I believe I still believe this one person We did at us and said I ve been argued spect, I'm the on the person from the ad who is always pulling the screen off in my candy, it's a client- and I was like My guy, I in my fancy seattle loft, making comics coffee on the side, while the it's always perfectly lit here for some reason, and then people separated sweeping at this person. The thick think spake, but he's because he doesn't like he's like a many followers doesn't realign sets out. story. Whether we got asked her to Pakistan. Like burner

here. That person is in. You can provide proof where we're still interested in a deer is obviously in the market for e mails from people who pull their two in one's apart indefinitely. The pernicious and people people that pop cause. I never do it and it's also super awkward, because it's like it's a giant, let the fifteen. Each of us is a giant tablet and you don't have to extend or anything like it, just like super light. They shall I go see time either. Architects of America have all settled. Do you think they're going to stick with foreign factor with a snake hinge another liquid metal, whatever it's called that like locks it down and, like the whole, the whole thing with the gap like the others adoration. They haven't changed laceration, I feel like if they believe that you should have a separable tablet, like a base. Its got lots a horse power in it like this. This can't be. This can't be what they actually want to make like however, I feel like they are held back by enter, I think

if some of their plan, we all, I think, some of their plans they had for the surface line, especially for the pro was slightly derailed by by intel stuff and that's the biggest thing about the proof. The book free, unlike separates it from something that's the same sort of form factor and price- is that it comes with fifteen. What cpu not fully five cps, thus holding it back as well like it's. Their idea is developers and performance, but that is like a big, a big drop off the cars. The performance is not nowhere near like what you'd get on a macbook. They should just put a forty five I'll see you in the base and then the talent is just like an hour in our institution. Well, there's media every microsoft, we are way over the tom. Thank you so much recover and build. He did a great job this week, little insight baseball like, Doesn't sleep I think, he's a robot and that's the secret of this disease on the table. In no time

the basic single handedly covered build, and it was incredible. So there's a lot of other seven aside, I would say, but if you're in shit, what microsoft is up to you should in the future of windows an office in these documents, gosh I got tons coverage has those great thanks. Renaming comprehensive. I'm going to take a break. We come back was upon us and walk us. Through this we can elon, hey, I'm ryan reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced that we raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices. Do not hating you! That's right: we're cutting the price I meant unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try, mint mobile dot com, slash switch new activation and upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply cement, mobile dot com for full terms. We eat with our eyes and our mouths

obviously, but also our brains noon can hope. You learn more about that psychological component to healthy eating, knew me The science and personalization you can manage your weight for the long term. There. Psychology based approach helps you build better habits and behaviors that are easier to maintain. And they help. You understand the science behind your eating choices and why you have those cravings noons per slide courses, are easy to follow and will help you grow your confidence with tools you can put into practice on day one the best part you decide how noon fits into your life. Not the other way around start taking, of your weight management enjoying the millions who have lost weight with new. You can sign up for your trial. They at noon dot com, that's in o m dot com to sign up for your trial today,. This report also, what about long time no see who is we ve, said this toasters, reformers

this is always every now and again I get a slack from was that's like as you on again and then I know I know I know how hard time will be spent. So it is made Down, maize is phrased, it there's would say an enormous amount of iran. Activity in this world going through highly active elan period. I would say I find them difficult to predict, but once we're in one of the cycles they do to extend for a while so lose overseas or science, dusk transportation desk and our creators desk. So that's spacex. That is too and that is means on the internet and the internet, None of those things is elon musk, so liz explain you asked what happened this week in isla and gonna. Do asked. So you may remember that elon musk was leg tweeting, some stuff about the corona virus. I didn't think it was that serious. He thought the panic is worse than you now than the virus itself. he decided to open his fremont factory that makes basically all of his cars in the eu,

in violation of the county health order, an suit the county in order to open early, and this week he has dropped the lawsuit looking other sites for factories specifically for the cyber truck upcoming production. and we are also getting ready for a space ex launch next week. That is going to be the first time that you s, astronauts have launched from you a soil and almost ten years. So I think that most of what's going on with you on I'm probably forgetting some things because there's use I see a lot of stuff going on with you, but I think one thing we haven't discussed on the diverse cast is recently had a child with an amazing name, yeah, John, a p s, Seventy one ass, this one yeah

Is that that sort of symbol, when you see the two of them fuse together, as I think, pronounced ash gunnar to babies, this ash, so we had a baby crimes. The loss thing worry: she's threatened issue, the cadmium and he dropped it. What are you? like alameda county, was already saying they were working with hustler. Did he just force their hand while at what? is our strategy there that we understand, I personally understand, although that doesn't mean that there is one. It just means that doesn't want just means. I don't understand it if there is but it seems like he really wanted to open early and to keep this in context you have to number that all of the other carmakers are pulling out all the stops in order to sell their car is right now so you're getting lake stuff leg, zero percent interest loans for seven years on cars, this kind of thing and well, car sales have dropped starting in march is also the case that that has been uneven, depends

location and that certain things, like suvs, have been less affected than other things like, for instance, Sudan's. So you can certainly see this as something where leg you have this Model, why which was recently introduced its first year and it In fact, a small suv So it's in one of the areas where there hasn't been as much market fall off and all of the other car makers making very very sweet deals, and if there are small a wise is around for people to buy. They may very well by something else with one of those sweet deals. So there's like a sort of like kind of logic behind it, but I'm not sure that two weeks mixed the difference in any we're seeing other carmakers open and incirlik immediately closed because of a virus. If she's right

it's the virus issues, sometimes at supplier issues, sometimes with both or I think, we're going to be seeing a sort of a lotta hiccups around manufacturing, either because of supply chain stuff or because a virus stuff for most of this year. since most famously in the meat patent glance, you'll notice that people are getting pretty sick there in close proximity and its spreading rapidly through that plant and any manufacturing facility where people are close proximity just normally, is sort of hard to reject or on the fly so that everybody six feet apart, like just out how to manufacture self in a safe way is probably going to take a while. So that's the push hurry up, and we think that we understand some of the under lying logic. There it's we'll shaky, especially the two time period, but other makers are blow. out sales to sell the crossover suvs tessa has any crosser suv. They need to make it to sell it to compete, ok kind of

Why this sordid bombastic attitude about it being a hoax, the it being overblown as there is not just an act deep mean. I kind of at one point: silicon valley was the most responsive to hey. There's this virus right, It was the most like. There is an article in VOX that, like VC firms were the first to ban handshakes in america, because I saw it because I had connections in china because there aren't enough they just sort of sought first in it seems as soon as iwan kind of started, saying I don't buy it. I want to reopen this is Oliver done? A huge attitude has shifted in you know, he's an infant Could I is or an underlying reason for that you think, or do you think that he's sincerely thinks it's overplay? I don't know I mean, I can't rule out that he sincerely things that's overplayed. Let's just be honest, biology has never been his strong suit like when it comes to his marice plans. He's, like you know, here's what the rocket

like, and there is nothing about the life support systems. So I don't know I don't know. He may very well think it's overplayed. I do know that there are a couple of possible explanations for why he might be playing into the sort of political. Man, and this kind of political push back, and the first is obviously that as long as prima fremont as close, he can't make cars in the u s period. and like he can't sell anything period as you know, so he has gives a business to think about. So there's that There is also no basic fact that his other companies space acts its main client is the federal government and the federal government is currently run by republicans, who also desperately want to reopen the countries. So you know maybe he's playing ball because he's hoping that that will make president tromp happy in that might result in something good for space acts. I dont know it is possible also that his search for another factory,

is playing in somehow so that the two places where that are essentially the finalists for the factory are tulsa, oklahoma and Austin, texas, both of which our states with republican governors and republican legislative bodies. So if there are any of a number of things that could be happening, including just you know straight up sincere. I just think this is bullshit and we should reopen, but it may be a political move. I mean this is the core of like any I'm ilan. Doth heelot is easy play Forty chess, or is he just popping off and is a little bit off the rails? And eventually back- and it always seems like it's a distinction. A difference to me and I'm thinking specifically of his his tweet about taking tesla private. like there was some something behind. Dead, but he was also just off the rails there in a sort of feel like with this is

same sort of thing word. It almost doesn't matter whether not he's being sincere, because the effects are pretty bad and it matter. way more now or doesn't matter as much now it is like actual motivations are because the effects are like directly going to affect people living yeah. I mean look long running theme of this weekend. Eve on is that I don't really feel comfortable speculating about his motives, a lot of the time, because in many respects they simply don't are right? Leg. I've seen I've seen a lot of speculation about what's going on here. I think the new york times published like four pieces, all of them up ads about this, so there is like one that was lake caricature, like he's doing it on purpose, and there is a reason behind it and another great bensinger. That was like. I always do to get a customers for his cyber truck, because ITALY, people who drive trucks, are report I guess that is amazing, and then there was like another one that was in the weaken review section that his leg. Well, you

well he's always been bombastic an iconic classic, and so this is just some classic ilan behavior and, like the it doesn't matter like in some sense, it really truly does not matter what the motivation behind it is. So I I personally have just been treating it as a black box, but you know people love to speculate. I certainly won't stop you, so who plays into this tweet. For the weekend. It's such a classic human moment for us to be talking about because it is so stupid and yet it might portend so much so. Elon tweets take the red pill with a picture of a red rose. Take the red pill is very much an alt right, trope rated Just it is connected to the fringe right in a very direct way and in the red rose is flicked the symbol of the democratic socialism, america. So it's very clearly a troll, but it led to

vodka trump retreating, em and saying taken and in which we would ask you to write to the matrix for growth just like there's the whole culture to smash together but lies in an newsletter on coming out. I've got the the draft or adherents that matter, and you make the point that actually the factory competition it does benefit either to play in this or that conservative politics, a culture worth among you. I think so definitely onto into ways actually, then there is the way in which directly shows up newsletter which, as you know, conservatives are in charge of the places where he wants to put his factory. So playing nice with them is probably a good idea. If you want some cool government subsidies, but also like, if you think about it very famously tesla does not have an advertising budget, but Advertising is that the only way that one accomplishes marketing the other way to do it is through earned media, and so

the way is that has made sure that tesla stays on the news is by acting out and in some ways the people already it in and by giving him you know, giving people essentially these moments of leg, big, cultural. Whatever to react to to keep when the news- and I really genuinely think that for him leg, there's no such thing as bad press. It's all good press for have as much as he might like to complain about it, because the plain fact of the matter is as long as he and hustler in the news he doesn't have to advertise, show that is the last. The recently rock this with me on was more tweets. More investor consternation one of the. events is if you're buying tussle stock. You know you're buying this year. You know, you're buying this character. Does therein activity on that side of things, because we are short of expecting into play out I haven't seen a lot. I've seen some consternation among tesla owners. Last week I spoken epidemiologist, who is really pissed about

the way the mosque had chosen to violate the alameda shelter in place order. And he was like iona tesla thought. They can't believe this. So you know, I think, that their italy, the atlantic, reported on some some tesla owners who feel betrayed by this boy. I don't know that I have seen the same kind of consternation on the investor side and I think that part of that is that the investors genuine generally, what they're getting into right like it's, not like it's a secret like after two thousand and eighteen like there is a certain amount of instability that one does expect with you on most cars, your ceo Even if these tweeting stock rice is too high, I mean that's what he did Where was, I believe, the beginning of meltdown may, which has gone on for a year now that yeah, so you know it doesn't

Imagine that you can be an investor in tesla at this point and be surprised by this. You know what I mean like: there's been a fair amount of this kind of nonsense going on for a pretty long time and like if you are willing to invest in elon musk, and he is arguably for a lot of investors really the draw. Then you know that you are you are in for this right and, like I think from that perspective, it's and of like oh well, you know he's a mad genius, and so we have to let him be as eccentric as he likes in order to develop the very cool cars that we love. Alright, so, let's sort of side hustle for now, I'm sure we'll have you back in your space and things are going next week and we'll have Lauren an extra week after the launch, but just preview. The spacex launch next week a little bit because that is Obviously he wants other big company, and it is, I think, just an enormous moment for american spaceflight again so. Crew dragon is launching just walk us that real quick

So one thing to keep in mind is that we have launched american astronauts for american soil, since I think twenty eleven lauren would know that first were, but I'm pretty sure it's way eleven, and so basically on may twenty seventh chew nasa astronauts are going to put themselves in the newly developed spacecraft. In florida and head to the I s s on the crew dragon, which is the very first private spacecraft to ever, take astronauts from the? U ass to the space station, and it's been like. I don't know, ten years in the making. I think it's it's. If successful, it'll be the very very first time That we managed to have a commercial flight to the eye ass ass, with astronauts on a rather than a flight that was developed by nasa so- You know there are a couple of things that that make this pretty significant right, like first of all the return of human fleet space flight to the? U s, but secondly, the commercial crew programme.

And this has been something that nasa has been working on for quite some time with a bunch of goals and the biggest is that private companies create the next generation of spacecraft instead of nasa. Hopes that that might be cheaper, and so you know once those things are complete. The marrow companies can potentially turn approach by selling seats thou those his craft to, for instance, space torres, Tat is the first step towards space tourism or, as is just one step in a long road in commercial space life for nasa well war and will have a more informed opinion than me, but I think it's the first step towards along rule road of commercial development. I dont think that this is a first step necessarily toward space tourism, because there are so many questions are surround that still, I think that that actually is gonna take longer to develop than most people realize, but I do think that

it is pretty interesting in terms of the commercial prove development and the possibility of you now having having rockets be made by somebody other than the. U S, government and commission by people. Other than the u s government, like those that that is a thing that is a possible, so just greens voted on in and let you go spacex thereby have a huge moment next week the twenty seventh everyone should watch launch wording to cover the hell out of it. It is just a gigantic moment, sir. Six seems insulated from this crazy this time. Why is that well I mean there is like this sort of physical distance right leg. Sex as an ally and tesla is in northern california the sort of office headquarter. these are in silicon valley and the factories is in fremont so like there is like that physical distance. Between them, even though the two do in some ways overlap, but I also think it's the case that they are just doing very different things like they're, both transportation, obviously, but there are different kinds of transportation for different climb

so you don't really have to advertise for space acts. You don't have to do marketing things ass. You dont have to be on twitter, like getting people interested in space acts, because the only people you have to get interested are the government and people who will sign the check for you selling. Figuring that stuff out is different, and I think that's a big part of like why space access them sort of insulated because, like these kinds of antics, they don't really matter in the same, way to space access customers and spacex, unlike tesla, is a private company So if the investors are pissed, I'm not necessarily going to see that in public because they can just call you on You know I was in says. Spacex also has an incredible somewhat under he became number two who seem so you actually run in a company

shot well, yeah she's, phenomenal, to my mind, like part of what is maybe an under some virtue of EU laws, is correctly delegating to one shot well, who has done a really really wonderful job space ex over the years? I think that he does not have a personal tussling. Sometimes I think it shows in some ways in someone's having here likes tesla. Being the chaos monster that it is all right. Let's thank you so much that we can. You Annie can subscribe to it it was right at every week until the yawning is complete. I don't have it framed for that, but the yawning, as is happening again so subscribe, and we'll have worn on next week to talk about this flight, but it was in this. She's on her right now may twenty seventh its imo. If your average person analysing this right, we should all basely wash together so check it out. We have tons of coverage that they say I must support for this show

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so guides everyone's in a closet, the we had its great etc. Where very fancy, while we're podcasting about pakistan react, Madame massive shake up in a park ass world this the european union, a spotify but then but wrote a bigger piece about spotify about grand ambitions walkers through what is going on here. So this make. It came out that Joe again, host of the Joe rogan experience a controversial but massively popular show. Rogan says he gets claims, That's a hundred ninety million downloads month has never been on spot if, before famous hold out and spotify announced this week, that now Joe Robin is going to become a spot. If I exclusive show meaning that his you to video podcast will be taken down and will not exist for huge deal as a huge, because Joe rogan is synonymous with you to podcasting. So there well, I'm going to have that on youtube and all

the audio, will only live on specifies, while in spite of I've just recently started testing. Obviously it's going to be a full launch, video podcast inapt last week with other popular you, two pot castors. So clearly this is all part of a grander scheme to potentially bring more you too. Podcasters over to it's platform. Can you briefly sort of talk about the idea of youtube podcasting, because I think that the people are you know, purpose and the diverse cast people are familiar with with podcasting as like a so I've been around for twenty years, but that the specific kind of pod casting the heavens on youtube is very different right, yeah. So a lot of times what will happen is still required in a vertical

to be a video podcast, get sorta emails right now, but the idea is that you, you would be doing the show regularly and a lot of podcasters just do it regularly, but the difference is they can cut their show up into video clips and benefit from Google's search algorithm. So you know interviewing some sundar. You can cut that up into a clip and say interview interview with Google, ceo and when people search for that you might be the first podcast that comes up to rogan of issues like play. This to perfection racketeers big guests, he'd cuts those in a reserve in the ten thousand clubs, he's all over youtube. I actually I've only experienced the jargon experience as youtube clips so does all that is going away,

is a massive podcast, which is usually, I think, most people probably listen to it in apple podcasts, because that is where all the action is all of that is maybe to spotify. What is the price tag for that deal? Reportedly, it can be anywhere from tens of millions to over one hundred million, depending on Four minutes on the platform, so are two hundred million for just one show jargon he's not working for modifies. He said it was a licensing delia, greater control, a big movers modify because, as you said, the show is controversial for a variety of reasons we didn t go to, but it is controversial, but he retains greater control. They also just bought gimlet, which is a huge deal. They make reply all and I thought the ringer bill simmons bills and also as a massively successful podcast. That's a lie.

The things to buy. I think your you added up. You said that the total price tag of seven hundred million for this they also acquired podcast, which does true crime and horror, so basically they've lacked Joe rogan. You know is, is one big star thing, but as far as the other intellectual property they own, they have sports covered. Now true crime and whore prestige reply, all gimlet shows which turned into office they'd have turned into tv, shows the prestige narrative and then they have anchor which they acquired as well, which is creative tool that gets beginner, pod casters on their platform using their tools in their space, to that's the minutes, the whole soup tonight's, that's like all the big categories, big personality and then some creed of tools, and then there's an add on to his two right right. So the difference between spotify and what we would normally think of as a pod cast is pie cats. Ss. I just know dealers college just ended by theirs,

and there's a whole open web argument to be had, but keep going so typically podcasts are distributed through rss feeds. It's a very open ecosystem. You can have an rss feed distributed across platforms. Spotify does not use rss feeds. You have to give it permission to access. You have to basically upload your show, and so also the difference is that, typically with podcast, you would download the show and then listen to it. Spotify is completely mostly streaming, so they invented this thing called streaming ad insertion and that's really different from how ads are distributed now and podcast packets are just starting to get into something called dynamic advertising which allows the ads to be switched out.

Depending on the week or day, and the ad deal that's happening at that time. For example, if your flowers dot com, I hear this example all time: favorite, flowers, dot, com- you don't want to run your ad in the middle of july, but you definitely want to run it during mother's day, so they can sub in this ad. That will appear in every verge cast episode during mother's day. What spotify is doing with streaming ad insertion is that, as people are streaming live, it will insert ads, are specifically targeted to them and because spotify knows what you listen to music, wise, but also podcast wise, which is way more telling knows where you live. He knows your gender knows your age, because it knows your name and who knows, if they're buying any third party date or anything like that, they can do a lot more targeting than you could with any other platform, so they really have control over the entire ecosystem and can put these ads. In short, I mean that's like that. Is google's business model, facebook, business model right, that is the big add targeting machine- is coming for pod in a way that just hasn't out I'll give us example, because three funny- and also so I can apologize-

If you s and the sooner interview, we recorded a promo for other ads on a box media network and they got accident certain indoors sooner episode for some people say you like, way through this inner interviewed, stop It would be me telling you to listen to or upset. That's like a good example of how clunky dynamic ad insertion is right now, so my apologies free to all those people. It's like five people. I hope you laughed I laughed, but that happens, download right. So if you download the show today that farmers are comrade happens, I download you're saying in so the archive into the future. It loses its value swat if I can do it in real time, the matter when you're listening, not just because your streaming, so that creates like an enormous my value for them and also

other kinds of advertisers participate right like that's the idea they're going to expand the market for podcast right right now. It's just that. I believe it's still in testing phases and limited partners, but you could easily see this being even good for local, like facebook, local advertising. I know you live in brooklyn, I'm a restaurant owner here. My ad, my restaurant on your part on this podcast right out and all that russia has to use download the anchor app, which is an easy, pont. Castration. Re like this is always my theory was they are making an easy tool for someone like that, and so they makin it automatically inserted and targeted yeah right now again limited so that in that yet pay as you can see where this goes. You trouble with our us, but I'm you know up I'll. Take the bait. The the big and is like when platforms get built. Now they get built like one big come I that, like owns the whole stack or tries to control as much the sack as possible? So, like you, could imagine a podcasting future that looks much more like radio with a local stations and like you, will add sellers that the local stations and some of them get brought up in clear channel but like there's a whole bunch like individual

he's doing stuff and that sort of analogous to rss, but now and the the way the internet seems to work these days. Google and facebook get a whole bunch of ad money for like stuff that you with your eyes and spotify, is trying to do the same thing with stuff that you here with your ears. That's how you here That's what you ve got like a really cool like citizens. Your thing I here is my heart dieter, but it has made a bunch of people like specifically they mark Armand, who makes a overcast marchesa very mad, and I, I am very sympathetic to being matter being said about the death of like her assessing nope standards right but, like you can make so much more money if you're able had so there's that and then the other thing that is sort of surreal and weird to me about this is the company that, like makes the play form that enables you to listen is also now making the shows, and so like there's. No,

separation between the platform that provide you with the content and the platform that owns and makes the count because they can make a lot more money that way too. It's always been, we in tv but there's always been like stuff around the edges, but its increasingly weird to think what the internet working that way. You know you don't think of. You did not think of any way like Google. You just go to all. Google staff use Google as a portal to other stuff. Somebody else provided the content and that's it spotify game here at all there they on the content they on the ads, the distribution, and that is a wild world any under tools to create

divorce. So the other example there is yet there's a Google example there's. Obviously the netflix example. Do you think spotify is trying to be more like netflix, so initially, when this is happened, we were thinking okay, you know for a video that we did, which everyone should go, watch an emergency two channel. We were thinking. Okay, could we make this comparison to netflix and I dunno I I don't because I really think ads are going to be a huge part of this, because ninety nine percent of podcasts aren't Joe rogan they're not going to be exclusives for spotify. They just aren't so there are going to be open on every platform. Why? Wouldn't you be, I think, the ads if they fully are like you know what anyone can come to us and pay for us to do their ads for them. That's where I think

really gonna make the money verses, netflix, which is like we want people to subscribe, specifically for our content right now you can be a free, spotify user and access to a rogan it'll have to pay, and I honestly don't really see that changing, because they make money off of listening to the show, regardless of who for free or not, and I also want to point out that if you are a spot, if I premium user, you will still here ads in spite of ipod cas really I couldn't believe it. I also about this at sea ass because that's me announced the streaming out insertion and I spoke believed dawn, but regardless she was saying that that's the user behaviour for podcast is hearing adds, so they didn't feel they need to change that. I almost like did I hallucinate personally,

If that is a crazy justification like I still am like yeah, but they were probably coming off the huge luminary controversy where Luminaria was like advertising their podcasts anita ads and they got like knockdown. I bet they were just like we'll see if we can play it another way, they're going to have a fast forward button right and I have to force you to listen the ad right yeah I skip ads, so you could do that. But still, I think that's a pretty big deal that that in theory, if they keep that they're double dipping in revenue there, so you're subscribing and they're getting that ad money, earlier, and I do think I should point out. Sire meet basically telling him that I do, but I do. I do really want to point out for anyone who doesn't realises that the reason spotify care so much about podcast is because with music streaming, which is what we too, because we think of when we think of spotify the company has to pay per listen. So every time you listen to reason, they have to pay reactors record label with pot cast its making money on every listen at least for its exclusive shows and for the non nuclear.

Shows it doesn't have to pay anything. What is so that we talk about this controversy that immediately and soon rogan when exclusive, One assumes every new ringer show will be exclusive. We have new gimlet shows me exclusive that is created. I think I've rifts, If there was already like this bubbling chaos in the podcast community. But now it's here right, people like you shouldn't even call them podcasts, which is like just my favorite argument to have. But it's like boiled over tell me what what is that split? Looked like one of the sides that fight I mean people are in podcasting, really see it as the

the last open frontier for the open web and losing that is a very big deal to them because for them that's the beauty of pod casting is anyone can get into it and it will concern our assess feed. Anyone could have the same platform access as everybody else and now we're starting to see a little bit of people being prioritized potentially mean you have to human spotify says they won't do this, but like belarus, even mine spies also trying to become a taste maker and curate shows in pot in place and use their algorithm to generate algorithm playlists. So you start and they have marketing money. The resources behind the shows that our spotify exclusive is so are so is so much more vast than what most other shows, how And I think people are really starting to realise that, and also more in the loss of what they see as the last of it. Let bets the surreal part of this to me is the thing that enables the openness of the current podcast ecosystem based on our assess is apple force I too,

yeah I mean that's where I'm that's, where I'm going it's so basic, and so I I I actually don't love all the Looking at tech stories like which corporate tighten is going to win. What does this mean together? Corporate titans business but apple, but we want to get into this row apple apple. I truly no, nothing but apple, really shocks me it shocking because they had such a lead such a lead, and do you know they could come back there? The default podcast player on every EU s device and theoretically, Google, which is graded advertising is want. Has google pack has now they could? Theoretically, even into the reason you still have to third party downloads modified, so that gives them some of the leg up but I've been up until now and even now, apple seems to just be like new becomes at anything. There's rumours they're going to start making their own chose, but those are rumours, planet I should have a podcast, that's the answer. So

where I was going in a it in a different and better way, so Julia wrote this week. Actually, I wrote a piece about apple tv plus, just kind of like falling flat. Okay and I think it has mostly fallen flat- wouldn't have been better if they'd taken the entire budget for them. warning show and instead of paying jennifer, aniston and reese witherspoon and Steve grill. If they had paid Joe rogan to make him apple exclusive, but would that have been a better bet for apple in terms of owning a content ecosystem than trying to run up against netflix and disney plus and water media right like, but they pick the biggest players to roll up against

tv, but they they could have just one in podcasting, but it doesn't seem like apple wants to do ads. Well, so that's one thing apple doesn't charge anyone to use apple podcasts, so they don't have that system built. Yet they also don't do ads so spotify. If you don't subscribe to get that money. If you subscribe, they still get the money they're making money any which way you cut it, but I think spotify, How did you speak to the idea that you notice, I can think of a major major show that spotify has launched on its own without prior existing ip? There has been a phenomenal huge hit. So I think what spotify showing us is that you need these mega stars to come on your platform,

and there's only so many of those in podcasting casting really there's, not many an empires. Never gonna do that. I mean, I would think the dailies in the new york times Joe rogan is one of the few and now gimblet empire cast like they ve locked up some solid stuff, and I think that apple would run into some of the same issues they did with apple tv plus, which is it is hard to launch new it was both visually and audio shows. I also think what I don't want to over. Read it with a Joe rogan like controversy, stuff, but apple is a corporation the way it holds itself out the way it behaves having like owning access to Joe rogan, and having any sort of direct financial relationship to that show that cast characters. That tone, I think, is like apple can't: do it right, and that was like the criticism of the the tv stuff at the beginning. Whether or not you believe it's true like that, TIM cook was like all of our shows, are to mean right and like yeah, the shows

whatever they are similar the morning as regards in them, are very bad but like parker is more direct you make more of literally right now we're just talking right in letters. Way more room to make controversial stuff without checks and balances. Apple like that's too dangerous for apple, and I think you just look at that and we can't we can't do being an editorial property comes with responsibility like this. Is a media company we work out if I go off into something frickin crazy you're gonna have to do something about the threat I live under every day of my life What did actually do tonight? We're not a bit spotify just has, and again I don't only repeat but spotify publishes party. I suppose music like they are used to the core services they provide being connected to controversial people like spot spoke of, colleagues west, is on the spot of, but but, like itunes exists, the apple found a way. I will find a way

like there's, there's a remove in the way. That's why I'm marketed service? itunes exists and apples, big movers, like everyone, gets a youtube to I'm trying china remember because when the hour kelly stuff happens, I remember I'm pretty sure spotify took off, our colleague content, the up, and there was a massive backlash, Emily undid it right now They decided on that day right. We are not going to we're not going to exert editorial influence over the art like what the art people, it's a consumer platform. I camembert apple lies in that fight, though I think apples, equally hands off, but apple? Isn't it? I think at that time they were not programming playlists and I certainly did not say it out loud in the same way. Sayings modify just more comfortable like with that. Approach with being the arbiter of culture and that way, worthing apple thinks itself of the service right or not should it be like us and our overplay it, but I think that's

part of the reason apple hasn't just like waded in fully, and I do think the other question is google, because Google does have dynamic ad insertion tech that can certainly figure it out. They have a massive corpus of data about people and they have a default podcast player, I they have the Google assistant and speakers everybody's houses and their nowhere. As far as I can tell yesterday, have a way to go and they deadlier nowhere on exclusive shows. But the googles three buddhist gary one, because, as you mentioned the day, if you're worried about privacy spot by spooky your leg, they can't read my else. Butterflies like scooby. Do scary and pupils like sauce get her evening. Call, no cell egg back scary, but like at the same time like amazon is nowhere on podcasting, an air speakers and lungs houses right like it's trusting that spotify everyone knew the opportunity. Was there

been waiting in talking about whether apple is to do anything. For years. You have been covering like what are you doing have you a z, anybody. I wanna talk later podcast plans and I know We ve been waiting with Google. We ve been waiting in some cases. amazon and alexa like make this easier and make a better spotify just spent the money part of the consternation out. There is this: when the money it seems like they have a good planning and executed and there's no one organize to compete with that spent. So if you just look at the things that we complain about in terms of monopolies, you're just saying we have a youtube, Egypt is a monopoly. There's no one organised to compete with you too, to deliver video what answer amazon monopoly right, like yours zone, organised to compete as a social network with that this feels like it could be the same term for podcast, but

These other big companies clearly saw the opportunity and decided to just blow it, which is blind bog again I've just I'm sorry like the solution to were afraid of accompany getting to beg shouldn't, be another big company will save us. I mean, and that's what's really sad about what could happen in the podcasting industry- is that there are so many independent players here like overcast you mentioned, pocket casts stitcher. The list goes on, there's podcast addict, which you can talk about if you guys want a little bit later, but you know there's a lot of independent podcast apps and it really sucks to see that they might simply just be pushed out because they can't compete apple. Google could maybe get in a game like We can still is a licensing deal. I don't know the terms, but eventually will be up, and men now do is get a cash by but other

now leg they could potentially compete, whereas the smaller players- I don't know what happens there interesting report, the revenue pieces, one big apple, mother, wants you open ecosystem to prevail for its player, to social weird thing to hear you say in two thousand and twenty you if you are like Neela you're, going to be begging for another internet giants, can be epic yeah, yeah, that's now maize weights on citizens apple once he opened ecosystem Dewitt I've just pointing that out. It's been a surprising time. We're hold learning about ourselves by. I think do I think they would rather not have spotify just suck up all of your pike, s listening and then second, all of your music listening and then end up in a their place when I saw the homepage and sell you the apple music service, when everybody wants to Caesar spotify subscription on it, which is where their cruising to right now

well last year, spotify did a test for something they called car thing. That was, I don't remember how many people they give it out. It was a small number, but it was a test for a kind of like smart speaker in your car that you could use to launch spotify and I'm pretty sure at the time they trademarked home. Thing to so. There is a world in which spot of eye is like screw it we're making our own smart speaker and since you all this dear pockets and music on spotify. Here we are here's your speaker, but I will give you for free. I want anybody who has access to the person in charge of spotify murder, it's an acquisitions division to grab that person's phone and delete a sonos as a contact information from it. Yeah man we're all doomed a and we just had patrick on hint hint at anything like that.

He was like, we need more companies and so expenses whole deal. Alright, as it's real quick tell us the podcast addict story, then we gotta get outta here so kind of like what you were mentioning with apple having to sort of police if they start getting into editorial Something happened this week with Google, where they have a popular podcast up in the play store. Supposedly it was about to reach ten million downloads. Before this happened. Google took this at podcast attic down from the placed or over these past weekend, because it implemented a new developer policy around covered nineteen content, saying that if you publish or display, I guess, covin nineteen content, it has to be approved by health organization, or, I think, a government body, and so this podcast attic up just catalogues rss feeds it's not it doesn't make it on content, doesn't publish anything and google mistake.

Lee according to Hiroshi, which you know at whenever he came he came in, is that there is a mistake, but they took it out and they said that it was a mistake, but they took it down because he had the route. But there was kovac constantly. You guys talk back over content, you're not approved by the health organisations to talk about these things not even a little bit so like in theory. Verge cats could have gotten him taken down. He has no idea what the the owner has no idea. What took his app down specifically, but this is kind of speaks to this idea- that podcast there's so much content, there's so much voice content it. It is hard to police unless you're it kick creators off who are controversial, yeah, so, like apple had that they might have backed down, but apple and google are in the unique position of running the app stores were competitive products. We talk all time, their competitors there and actually there and they can shut them down and spot of eyes, with just making noise about that being unfair in europe. Here urged everywhere anyone or listen, and I think we're about to see that boy.

Over as they get really competitive and by gas start to threaten other pieces. The pie, like I would imagine this right is going to get bigger, not smaller. That's just my guess. The listeners not rubbing their hands together Very. He she's got a great year reporting alright, so we're gonna. Let you go back to that. We've as always, we've gone over. That's just the way the verge esca has lately. Actually, there is so much the He has already up on youtube yeah go. I sat charity friends, explain that pakistan will never be the same. That's all I want you to treat it. I want. We ask is really adds spike, podcasting la re, realization and tag actually, workers unemployed, ill scare people. right we had sooner and the innovation this week, I'm it of its already in cannes. I can promise it stir, butterfield cs: lack innovation on tuesday. Actually, I interviewed the sea of tinder Simon, that's coming out. We that is the murderers murderer's interviews coming up. I'm really excited about it.

that's on tuesday ass, your butterfield see slack, which strike he brought out. We back next friday, with a chatshow on and on we go, you can tweet at us. We had a lot of people on t, I'm at reckless to years of backline ashley ashley What time is it Tom Warren in lives? Is it s the potter, MR potter? That's all corrects a guy. It's a very good. We love your feedback. Tweeted us we'll be back soon. Rock'n'roll pop the hey, I'm ryan, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what Wireless does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices. Do not hating you, that's right, we're cutting the price,

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