This week on the hast Tom Warren dancing for it join me indeed her to talk about the big antitrust fight in the world, epic versus apple and google. We also talk the game, streaming controversy and apple's app store, and we got to talk about the surface studio, microsoft, new folding phone with two screens, that's kind of now on the verge 's, hey, I'm ryan, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate.

our prices due to not hating you that's right. We're cutting the price of mint, unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It mint mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation, an upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply cement, mobile dot com for full terms. Hey, I'm ryan reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation. We just it to deflate our prices due to not hating you that's right. We're cutting the price of mint, unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It meant mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation, an upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply, cement mobile dot com for full terms, Well, what emerges flagship, castor, sherman, antitrust act such injured, that's.

Sing out started. Would bar you lecture class. Welcome, please open your barbary textbook I'm not going do that because it's horrible- and I just myself did flash So the rugs and areas of our has to show that technology, but today com, I'm afraid you? I did a bonus here. I'm your valued business partner. Now huh, Peter Tom Warren is here: hey Tom am with the actual you're. Not though right until the end of the year, and I was hoping you'd like and see what is here whether you have friends like I'd start, my god, it's alive, going on and attack world this week there was a fight about games streaming, apps on appstore, epic, the maker fortnight's, apple and Google, got fortnight, kicked off of those app stores. This as do I was announced as a microsoft door screen.

The phone. So much you're, a news. There's just a lot happening in technology. I needed this crew to talk about an hour and I spent a lot of I am on the senator stuff, it's a big deal and I think it's going to change the nature of the industry, but before we do all of that as usual, all of this is happening in the context of the. in denmark, the movement, racial justice in this country. So just some updates aids on our cycles, recovery that stuff very heavily I'm point I think, legally obligated to note that it has been twenty two weeks since Donald trump presented to the nation, a flowchart, about a testing plan where you would go to a website that data is google,

it's building a website right. Forty, five million Google engineers yeah forty five million google, google engineers and then another another four million alphabet, engineered and then verily. Also part of alphabet was going to do a bunch more actually a real thing, rarely done as they set up their own approved testing lab so they're like they're start. There start to be vertically integrated wow, but the website still doesn't exist as foe. So far as I know, There is a website, but it's not the nationwide testing strategy that we need to actually overcome the pandemic before vaccine one in three weeks since that happened, we're just gonna keep counting other m, ignores the united states on a similar notes past. In turn a virus cases this week, which is not a great milestone you might have heard that russia said in approved a vaccine, Mary Beth, Greggs are signs that are read about that. It's an unproven vaccine. It has not gone through the appropriate set of trials. It's very controversial issue that piece to gain an understanding of a span there.

And in spite of that, I keep saying the second order. The pandemic is important, the things that are changing because the economic impact of the pandemic. big airlines are now just hoarding cash to get through because travels oversee down. That's That's one of the stories airline industry is deeply changing because of it. That's on the site, and it is probably shouldn't surprise anyone, but raping, has been linked to a higher risk of covered nineteen and teenagers young. I am glad that we did a study to permit issued in common sense way, one down, don't monkey with your lungs in a time of covered or ever maybe in unless interracial justice, front J, peters spent weeks and weeks, weeks, assembling data around the pledges from big tech companies to racial justice initiatives so, in total, a billion dollars was pledged from big companies ranging from comcast to disney to apple to facebook, and he made a bunch of charts and put it on context. It turns out compared to their profits compared to their spending on other,

this. This is responding changing there's, you know, there's a lot of controversy around big companies using charity and using philanthropy heated launder their public image, and you look at these charts. That argument becomes a little more compelling think my favorite one is eighteen t spent seventy three million dollars on an ad campaign for fake five g, which is like almost as much money as if they committed to racial justice, sir red, that peace can it helps contact rise, the scale of the problem in the scale of the scale of the effort that the corporate side of the world is putting into it great peace, for an hour. I never want to ignore. That's us. I've is, I think, those are the two biggest stories in the world, but I usually say, but there's a technique but I actually think the antitrust stuff in tech is going to have one term massive impact on the entire tech industry. Consumer industry is we're all sitting at home. You know the economy is changing around us. Rob mediator my screens

to put what on your screen turns out to be of earth shattering importance. And a lot of the action this week in tat was about who gets to put what on your screen. So I think see. Everyone knows that the big story is epic sue apple and google baiting them into a situation where sacred file that loss it we'll gets that in a minute. I want to step one day back. There is one day before this is the case Next, to this is apple, was in another fight around streaming game services, so the one that's at the top of mine is ex cloud from microsoft, Tom walkest, through what in their so basically was gonna launches Ex cloud came stream, you service, but only an android. They did a test of the I was version early this year and it was really weird test So on the actual site they had like a bunch of their own games puffing up around about hundred one point On the other side, they had one which was highlighted an

They put it down to a complying with apple, app store policies. In that she say we specifically, which section or and if not that, but that was those little they said back then, and fossil. There was even a launch in september, bundling with its exports game pass, but John, I s and initially day they constitute real much about air like permanent harm, and you know week were keeping us on this. Will download but in that she came out and by sea, so condemned apple, essentially for for blocking them from don't cheer on on the app store after apple issued a statement saying you know, google study and ex clouds tougher nodded. on the platform, so say why they're not allowed on the pattern they say, they're no allowed under a sort of remote desktop of clause in there In the absence of any. They basically like that,

I want you to connect to a remote computer that isn't your own, that you don't own distinctly. I mean it. It's so complicated, it's hard to actually breakdown. So what happened? Was the microsoft account? Microsoft did the thing where, like they're, not on ios, a business insider, went to apple and said, hey what the hell and then apple gave them the statement and businesses printed the entire statement. It was actually the exact same statements of ours know no that they gave to in Bloomberg like away back in march, but because we can look at the entire statement as just like a blot quote here is apples. Justification site, it's so obvious that what we are doing here is like arguing about the moderation rules. like a parsing out like why this, but not that edit. It just caused everybody to like take another look and be like what the hell. Why are vpn apps allowed, but not game streaming? Apps, oh because you're connecting to a computer that you don't happen,

to own sort of free and see apps. Now the ability of the efficacy of sorry feel see apps, okay. Well, why is netflix allowed, but not games, trimming apps, fifth sub, but apples claim is for games. Apparently they want to review every that you can play, so they want to be able review themselves every single xbox game and every single stadium game, and they want all those games to be listed individually inside the app store. So, for all intents and purposes there banning game sharing apps. So I feel like a very important piece of context for all of this is the fact that apple makes most of the money on the app store from games. and almost to the services money that they make is from the app store right. apples, big narrative is were now services company. With this,

billing of iphone growth, almost every other product they make, is sorry to the iphone so all of their is limited by the size, the iphone market, and so there big narrowed if over the past few years been where services company. Obviously these people iphones remain click or money from them. Inside of that, the biggest chunk is the app or an inside of the app store the biggest trunk is in at purchases and games candy rush, while it may be fortnight, I am a fortnight. I just all conversations kind of centre around abstract principles like this. After that. I just think it's very important to remember. There's a ton of money from games at sea here in so I think we're seeing with keen sharing with epoch whenever that's where the Action is like spotify mad to, but whatever this kind of go along with the amazon is mad. That cancel can like it's, not the bigger

chunk of money in the game, while the idea that this is an argument over like it up platonic principles of how a platform should work and as it is We could have a whole. What's a computer discussion of the diversity in the console and a platform and a computer, if you want I'm I'm, I will have that discussion for days with you. It's a spectrum you see, but the idea that this is about those principles and not just about the money like apple will. Only talk to you in ca in terms of principles is literally about power. While you look back and like amazon got, got a deal. Fifteen percent rate according to, if the documents and emails is about power right legs. If you, if you open up your platform and let someone build a top of the hallow windows and steam, you know most of the Not have power over that. Let that started in korea. I'm still on the window sill, so they ve lost that powder apple has created so they may create in cuba to them. They did a great thing with mobile side, but now they trying to control it anne and that they want the power it and anything that goes

the platform they control. There's no way sidelined in his absence is no way of getting around that power and if he knows that the call the core problem and comes into the epic game stuff, as well as the core problem, they want to control was on their platform one. I got I agree. I just think very specifically the two big disputes between some of the most powerful players in the game: microsoft, facebook, epic apple thereabout, games for a reason, because that is the biggest trust, the biggest entertainment industry at the base. Entertainment is here, but is also the biggest chunk of apple services, revenue, narrative and serve you break that, their narrative actually kind of go sideways not making all those billions of dollars and services revenue on apple muse, igerne. It's not our music

right, they're, not making it an apple news, plus the worst product that apple makes their making it on in our purchases in games and their pretending that it's all the other stuff there pretending they're tv services, meaningful show, and on top of all of that law in the context of all that is the excluded. Those who launch you on the android side, but it's not launching with in app purchases in the Google playstore correct, they might so such a cot deal with some. So we don't know what what percentage of the default that some somewhat as its types and they do specific in the guidelines mentioned that you can cut deal with us as soon as she does what they say: niggle as ye cut do of us when we perhaps getting approved. Basically, I asked samsung for comment and they're like we'll get back to you, and that was that was those fifteen hours ago. okay, so I got. I got deep into this tangent of of of services revenue, but really Looking at his ex cloud face what games this neck. to the next generation of game services. What

like the games run on a server somewhere video. Streams to over the internet and new stream control back to their games right in in a world like the one promise of five g that I believe is that the latency on the mobile network will be low enough to make that worthwhile on funds you could tell us that that's bringing to be the future win. Facebook apple, Google, maybe not gate with so much, but the marks of tools for arguing about it. When I give you as a suspicious, not said much about study this, but I'm gonna make me they want. To happen. Presumably, first has to they gotta make it happen before they can make it. step, one. It works K where fifty percent of the way there step two people are using it. That's a little is maybe harder for well anyhow. So the comparison netflix here is really apt. Right, I think credit to rene ritchie. I think he made this point in a youtube video. The other day, netflix you hit play video streams at you from a server somewhere. Apples not get

the way that they are not reviewing every show on netflix or hulu or whatever it comes to game streaming services, apple, saying: oh, we need to review every game available to you, so we're not going to let a catalog app like netflix, show up with games that stream and control streams. That more than the and c argument is where it just falls down. For me, right like what is really the difference between streaming video from a game running on a computer somewhere and streaming video from a tv service on computers. There isn't one the the inner activity of control is like not it's not a meaningful enough difference to me now if you put in the context of the fast apples argument that they will arrive, every piece of content or less stuff, and if they choose to think streaming is different to video streaming, then you have to consider things that bind the. What was that there was that was that

we will achieve a tv show. Oh you watching an interactive tv show that I just want to point out. Importantly, banner snatch was not available on the apple tv realer death Probably it's more of a technical thing. Maybe the apple tv that has the same processors, various ipads. like. If this thing can run on a roku that is basically a hamster wheel of a processor, I mean, I think what happened. Was they started to test it on the apple tv and they lasted five minutes with apples were about like you know what reed Hastings is affordable and he's like screw this or that, but I think apple is enforcing this distinction around interactivity with getting game sharing and the killer in a way that doesn't hold up to this scrutiny of. We need to keep her kid safe right, because if that was true would review all the other video that you can stream from thing this weather videos generative like video games or prerecorded like netflix,

and they certainly are not reviewing live tv, which, who knows what your kids will see on various lightly shrimp. So that's it contacts so microsoft is mad. Facebook wants me the gaming iris without any games this week, to say like look at what apple made us do we're gonna, take a break in transition and epoch Think one of the issues for both of these companies is it nobody's rooting for them against apple. This way, right, like X, out, isn't a thing yet face. What gaming is run but facebook when their mad at apple? I dont think they they build up that wave of support. Feel right here. Will it when facebook is taking you to task? You know you ve got issues like, but I don't like that. Every people ready backing facebook. Many games and their facebook gave me up which people people ease and which we seem to be so that with a mixer closure, woman's twitched think really gets facebook gaming

so they can have a real and the relevant part of the compensation, but ex cloud could be. Obviously oxide is connected to xbox we're about to have an xbox moment, with the new generation of councils that feels much more fraught for apple, but at the same time, what their enforcing as the status quo right. It's not a thing that people have it's being taken away: it's not a thing that people even know they want yet yeah. They can't get it's everything's, just the same for ios users as ever. I think that's what it's important to sort of lender. This is the context in particular. The xbox thing could be coming for apple hard, because

Tom talked about the sponge shot halls, who wrote a great peace on this, like, I don't think I'm buying an xbox, but I might by game, has ultimate unlike get a gaping, pc and annoy dan for six months about how to let you know if, when I should get and how we should do it, and if microsoft actually is successful in its strategy of its not the council stupid, it's the service, they could have a huge group of customers that are just like annoyed it up. Well at annoyed at their phone and, like the big question for apple is, are they going to be more worried about customers being annoyed at them and switching to android, or are they more worried about, like you know, losing that services revenue the issue is also going to depend on war apple. Doesn't this space right, my ashore, they. They will be a player in this space. Somehow in the cloud him his face, she'd, imagining might be too. They create like an app tv ask up first class dreaming? I don't know like he knows what he knows, what they do,

Does she they haven't figured that out yet, but apples are also- and I say this with love Historically bad video games, yeah right like that same apple games now are apple arcade and it was great to begin with it sort of has died off. We don't hear about it quite so much. There was some reporting that game developers were being pushed to make games that had higher engagement rates, which sounds like the bad place, like you hear that phrase and you're, like oh we're, just making trashy things, and it's to prop up that subs like make the subscription worthwhile over time, so you're not paying for an entire month for if you don't play or not don't play a lot whether or not they can transition all of that into we're going to stream aaa games at you I mean you can barely play a aaa game on the mac. You know like don't. They don't have that infrastructure. They don't have those developer relationships, they don't have any of that stuff, except for the the free to play games in the app store. The thing their play

probably- and we're like a really weird point in hardware, especially on the ipad sideways. Like you know, reason for night is is mobile devices. They got so much more powerful, now ripe for nice, not maple game. They didn't start on mobile, but it runs really wilna like ninety frame. Second, just crazy, so that in the next five years is more. These devices guenaud enables today and does apple wanna, give up that. You know that it'd experience are running these games like should they just say to myself night, bring halo to the effort That's all you want it's wrong. The iron says the so much the so much going on with those devices in the way we ways heading like there's a cross over and then did Traditional console players see that they know it's happening to know it's about to happen and that things are shifting up to the cloud as the way for them to go, because they can't get on these mobile devices. As long as our app store palsy stuff, I should disclose again that my wife works for the app store for oculus, which a division of facebook, and I recused myself from reporting on facebook,

or oculus or vr. So I don't really know what their policies are. I'm excited that the birds are going to join us for us to show we're going to take a break thompson and take a broom. And try to chase the seagulls away, its enemy, great, we'll be right back and when we get into epic vs apple vs, google, we'll be right back, hey, I'm ryan, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to def

wait are prices due to not hating you that's right. We're cutting the price of mint, unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It mint mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation, an upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply cement, mobile dot com for full terms. Hey, I'm ryan reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation. We just it to deflate our prices due to not hating. You that's right. We're cutting the price of mint, unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It meant mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation, an upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply, cement, mobile dot com for full terms, or so we laid the context.

Pressure on the app store right. We obviously have the the hearing the other week big deal to confront a congress that came after the app store we ve. We know Hey, engage age. We have heard about the streaming services. There is a lot of pressure on the app store, but I think what happened with epic this week is the thing that broke it. Open data. Do you want to this timeline? Is incredible? Do you want to walk us through it? So our recordings on fridays, a thursday morning, a update to fortnight appeared

on ios and android devices offering a permanent twenty percent discount on v bucks. If you buy it direct from epic, instead of via the in app purchase standard thing on either ios or android, and this is deeply against the rules because on games on android, you have to use in app purchases on everything on the iphone you have to use in app purchases up. Also, probably not you know, according to the rules, to just silently push a server side update with that major functionality included just a thing so is very clearly designed to be a thing like make these companies they put out a blog posts being like screw. You yeah and two times point there. Many apps. They can do. What epic did with fortnight pushed a server side up, they say did not have to go through app review and enable new functionality, and there, like many apps that is no even service lightly spacing killer. You have a shell of an app and then that damages the whole game falls within the ep and is like

this, only really games at the end that the sunday, the really big answer so that happened, apple did not back down apple, said ghip. You ban at one time emulate this happened in the morning yea and it was the late afternoon rails, gotta ever wondered. What was going to happen for some time and then we got a statement from apple and we got to state but for apple. Do you ought to read that statement? It's very long, but I'll I'll read. I read the good parts we broke. This meant that we had at first today, epoch game city and fortune set violating violating actual guidelines that are applied equally to every developer and is on keep the store safe for our users keeps us firstly for users, and a couple of days

is there fortnight app has been removed from the store, epic, enable the feature. Ins apple has not reviewed or approve apple, and they did so with the express intent of violating abstract guidelines regarding in app payments that apply to every developer, sells digital goods or services, and in this that's the first part we ban the app here's why this second part is like this is apple's line. It's actually it's google's onto his. here, but this is kind of their rationale, and this is where they're gonna keep landing. Epic has had games on the app store for a decade and have benefited from the actual ecosystem, including, was testing in this region apple for I saw developers. Epic agreed to the actual terms and islands freely we're glad they built such a successful business. Appstore the family business interests now led them to push for a special arrangement does not change the these guidelines, create a level playing field for all it offers and make the source safer. All users will make every effort to work with that which was always violations they can,

in fortnite to the app store. If you remember their line with hey the email app was based campus at at apps on the store for a decade they built a business, haven't paid us a dime. This is apple's argument we built the store we own, the platform you haven't paid us and in the same way, that a t and t deserves credit for the success of the iphone and smartphones apple deserves credit for the success of any app. On it's platform I mean it's depending on who you talk to my mentions that argument as either very convincing or not convincing at all, There is no middle ground, so this is like gamesmanship and I want to be clear. I'm epic issued the update. Knowing tat. They had a video to release, knowing that they had a complaint, written and ready to file apple issued a statement, I'm more certain than not knowing all the all those things are going to happen? Oh for sure, I dunno, if they knew

extent to which epic was going to go hard. So epic, ceo, TIM, sweeney very famously a spiky and angry about the stuff, so they knew he was going to do something. I don't know that he was going to release a shot for sure remake of apples. Nineteen eighty four add fighting against the evil corporate monopolist that they were going to try and break stage I mean that, for it is very, It is pretty young. There is pre epic, yeah. I'd say that we're in the middle of a battle royal right. If the seagulls can hear me attack tom, so apple,

This is a statement. They pull the app store. The news breaks its chaos. Epic is not saying anything right were asking for comment work. De aiming terms where say, aired, not say anything. They release this video. in fortnight, this we're having a special fortnight event at four p m. At least this video called nineteen. Eighty fortnight is this very good for garlic, What if it is very clever and the hashtag at the end of videos free fortnight were taking on the app store monopoly. We kicked up the store hash for a fortnight. They are leveraging the army a fortnight fans to change the public opinion of apple at the same time, tugging, like legged leg, it seems like like this. This remit, of the commercial is knocking like the people who are playing fortnight right now. probably not going to know the original and understand the reference, but we do unlike the rest in peace

and like twitter blows up with this and look at what they did and then the people in fortnight can get latch onto the free fortnight. Hashtags was like this double play. To get like press interest, my general interest in the tec community and also interest from the fortnight user base, at the same time, to come against apple with this movement that the applicants I will say: if you watch aid, the stream is were painful night. The general What was that because that is exactly what I'm saying like they. They don't know what this is referencing, but like we do. You know who does is like Phil. Schiller too, cook all the old apple and it really does box apple in a little bit because apple had not credibly say that they are a titan bright. We're not being the underdog anymore. It's like this big theme, so they do is there any reason I want to talk about that? before any illegal stuff is, unlike microsoft,

sound like facebook gaming. Now you ve got an audience of people, kids who are at home, who are probably able to play this game on their councils and not their phones, who are having a thing taken away from them that they love and they but ass tag right. That is like that is a much better that from out just a p r standpoint right like that is as a perfect in epic is big, prince money, They are not afraid of apple. Clearly terms we need is not afraid to fight. They were able to do the update on their end to get kicked off the store. Theirs not another company that is situated to be in this fight. I think it's interesting that they chose now to do it. Like fortnight has been on the app store. What to three years, whatever now like epic, must have looked at their growth trajectory and then like

We are at the point where fortnight I was his kind of hitting saturation they're not like getting a whole bunch of new users downloading. So we are going to play this move now to try and player hand when it's not going to affect us and as much in terms of our opera fright like how many people are re, are new users downloading fortnight. At that this point I was so it is very calculated in terms of like the timing of, during this long to do it and doing it now and then knowing obviously what was going to respond by pulling the applique epic knew exactly what was going to happen. That's why they had this video ready, that's why they had, but we'll talk about it in a few minutes with the the lawsuits. So it's like it's almost like they are taking this principled stand now because the business is safe. Already, like the already have the user base, the epic isn't, accident. You know, like four: nine is in an accident and sweeney. Isn't this year one of the biggest gaming companies workers he's bad it businesslike

if lined up his line of the dominoes and waited to push him over and like I didn't make I think he also waiting until after this hearing he waited in. So pressure was warming in any dropped a bomb, and I think a lot of Legal machinations are of the same type in what is that? So that's I keep going through the granted this video, they release the lawsuit, incredible flax, release lawsuit, they tweeted a link to a pdf just a straight pdf on one of their who, like no one does here's, our argument. It's a competing like it is the filing We want you to have the primary source. It's not a website spotify. Does it it's a beautiful website like Alan It is there just like here's art, here's a complaint yeah, oh god, I want to talk about the plate. We can't we gotta go through the rest. I promise we're going to get

I just I'm setting all the states. I think that the moves in the complaint are as considered. Is all these other moves you're talking about. All the peace at the same time. So this is all happening with apple. They ve made the video the fight is with apple and we're like when they did it to google to what is well in dinner. I had this conversation yesterday, like if Google smart, they would just do nothing just right Just me like well, that was weird huh the they eventually start. The wheel started turning an eventually. Eventually it took him. And quite a bit longer than able to react honestly, but they eventually did and that's a google had to know that the wash it was waiting for them too. Of course they knew where it submits its. You know it's a twitter senator how much apple knew the orchestration. I think they knew. yeah, but you don't know for sure with Google they watch the whole sector playing apple, and now they have the information they couldn't just waited like three days

then on Saturday morning, when no one is paying attention because they all playing fortnite yeah know like let's, let's have the last thing that happens. Is these news? cycle be epoch coming after us and that everyone goes to bed but but that's a grand plan. I was because I have to read the complex issue, a statement and we had at first it was the open, andred ecosystem. Let's developers distribute apps through multiple appstore. That is like a number one thing that Google wants to tell you there's some issues with that, but I will come back for game developers who choose to use the play store. We have consistent policies that are fair developers and safe for users and fortnite remains vivid android, while forty one veins available on android. We can no longer make it available and play because it violates our policies, but we welcome the opportunity to continue to step back and bring fortnight back to google play so Google's whole thing is a man you can. You can get apps on entered, however, you want. They specifically here, aren't calling out sideloading, because

they know this. This already happened with epoch. Once epoch went off, the Google place towards had silo it, and then it turns out sigh loading, an android kind of socks cause. You click a bunch of scary props, red, and this is why epic came back and they came back to android eighteen months later earlier this year the came back

and tim sweeney statement was like yeah we're back because the sucks, because no one's doing it, because Google is awful and these warnings on android are terrifying. So this sucks- but I guess we're back whatever, and so google specifically isn't talking about sideloading they're, talking about competing app stores, which is weird because in the world where you people use google play everywhere, but china it's a joke, that anybody really wants to use any other app store. It's like your phone as a failure. If you don't have google play, look at huawei, but increasingly samsung is pushing it's app store super hard. Both microsoft and epic are encouraging people to install their app via samsung store because they don't have to pay a higher fee, apparently, but otherwise, like race

had, if you ve ever installed apples underground, appstore, I'm raising my hand, but I found it occurred to you. It's me and like three people there are listening to us right now known ass, raise your hand, so this whole thing where you like you can go to install via third pretty after is true. It does give google and out that apple does not have and does not want to have which we could maybe argue about. But it's the like it sort a clean pure as a german snow like we are morally better stance, because third party app don't work, is well on android as the Google place or and in a complaint it gets into that. So I want to break these in the two. So that's the chronology of the day and while the and then epochs Google big, immediately suitable yeah, which we waiting for me what it was like an anticlimax like ok, it's finally, here late, video they differ.

No video google doesn't have an amazing fucking, historic commercial that has embedded itself in the psyche of america. So now nobody I mean the video part we're out like all it like a bunch. teenage streamers and youtube errors are now, explainers about the nineteen eighties like its genius, it's great you have to depreciate likud it on a screen. Good video, oh my god, there's like the three people who remembered scourge that we are all in this phone call so as to offer its now. I want to take them separately. I will, wait. There's a lot of shared language between the lawsuits. A lot of shared claims, a lot of they obviously mirror each other. One thing I, in a roth filed by the same law forms one of the law firms here, which I think is. I know when I get to conspiracy theory on it. You know like dont, override

But it's very interesting to me. The epic hired this law firm, acrobat swain and more this a huge mergers and acquisitions offering a legendary law firm there, usually on the side of big stuff. Ok, right so epochs, not small there, like a seventeen billion whenever I am, but in this specific way there, they also, they also represented qualcomm against apple. yeah, that's remain so they represent call com against the anti trust action from the sea and unjust, one of the most famous and its will come up. As we talk about this case. For the next ten years. Where life wait. Ten years this cases gonna take ten years, why not just one or two weeks that would be appropriate nook ten years There's a amex american express, went all the way, the supreme court, an antitrust case on a very novel theory of what's called the two sided market. merchants, were suing annex four unreasonable fees. Annex argument was look. Prices for consumers are getting lower unions at home.

yet no one thought this was a winner. Very few people thought that was the right decision. Guess you one that case after one decade of litigation, Iraq, swain and more so are usually undecided. Picks up. You know, roth also represented time warner, merger with eighteen t against the dj was trying to get case So this is a huge law firm but, as usual, on the side of consolidation that usually wins the cases for consolidation market power? So is very interesting that a hired this firm to file is also- and I If you look at some, the lawyers you've got an ex ftc. Commissioner. You've got ex federal judge. This is heavy hit. We have covered other appstore antitrust cases before and it's like, it's usually very regular. Email acts like whatever right, like

This is not that this is the real shit. So I just from the kind of the beginning, you're looking at epic is in it they're paying the money and this law firm, which has had the streak of antitrust defense, wins, is now on the offensive. Then you can you can pay lawyers to do anything. What I mean I can say, I was lawyer like but law firms like this devalue, their reputations, so they're, not gonna, be in a streak of defence. Wins then go on the offensive if they don't think they have a chance right, as again. I don't want overeat it. I just want to set that up, like I'm reading the filings here, the things I'm noticing so before we get into the illegal stuff. We just point out that the like, just like the video, the intros for both of these things, they specifically needed each company for dope evil and for the nineteen eighty four thing and they're specifically like just the first two pages. You should go and read them because there's there's nothing legal about them. It's it's strictly a moral argument designed to appeal to you know

everybody from me down. I you know, I told your kid who wants for night back on the app store for the iphone. This is treating the pdf. They want you to read this, yet they want this art. We the thing they want people to make these arguments in public, so the apple one their long. I will say this: I read the apple complaint and I'm like this is an episode of the votes cast. that's what it is. It has a long argument in there about locking has a long argument in there about switching costs. It has a long argument in there about who else gets, distribute apps in the app store If you've been listening to this show for a long time, you're gonna read this complaint. Your mac tick, tick, tick. I recognize all those arguments, regardless of what side you're on this complaint brings all that stuff to a head, so the heart of it is they define markets for each company, and the reason I want to take them separately is the google market in the apple market are differently defined entirely so with apple. The mark. That apples monopolizing in using current like illegal huh, to maintain, is one

I was apt distribution market to be one. Enter the market. A virus, apps apple, has a monopoly in their using their contracts that legally further that monopoly, that is who yeah. It's a lot and the iris enact payment processing market, which is the other there's two things here that they are talking about. One is, if you wanted Does she didn't happen? Was that's a market that apple controls, the other one is if you want to accept payments, that's another market that apple controls now, one of the most common thing is about this argument. Is you say if you want iphone apps. Are you sign the contract with apple and you agree to it. You're screwed, right with these complaints are about. Is those contracts are illegal? Those contracts illegally further these two monopolies in these two markets that we defined. So if you just take a step back from basically everything we ve been talking about public opinion, your own instincts, whatever. What is this case about whether apples com, facts in relation to their markets, as defined here are legal or not. Legal

whether you are using your power in one market and whether you taking power in march We want market and an using a contract to I and other service into legally. This is the classic tut tying unbundling, the marks of going topical. So this complaint very much mirrors the microsoft arguments, the rhinoceros, Lawyers are smart, they're saying that was a winning argument back then more industry, sure this thing to look like that and we're going to pursue it under that. So how does this? How does this structure that are the contracts? Are they using their market power in having created the ios ecosystem to make illegal contracts because they have an awfully on it? Get around like that, like obvious thing that I'm sure apple will say immediately, it'd be very pissed about which is like we have a monopoly on the thing that we made yes, so like we, the thing. What we can't control the thing we made, what the hell like there's: no, there is no iowa marketplace unless we make iowa so and that's it. we saw that in that statement right we're very real.

Before making money our platform right deal with it. This is lock in argument, comes in This is like a long section of this thing. After they had all harms and others. play so in a normal case, you would have competition. This is apple's like hilarious argument, for an a congress like if people don't like it, they can just write their app for the p s four yeah, So this is like a long piece of the complaint where it says apples, power and the relevant market is not disciplined by competition in the sale of mobile devices. There's no market force here, making apple act better, isn't there in an android, though right apple mobile devices this is from a complaint apple mobile device customers face significant switching costs and customer lock in the irish ecosystem. These conditions edifice themselves and apples ability to maintain its power and sail premiums, orphans and tablets in an hears is fairly walkie argument. Apples, parent mark,

It is not just one more competition, because consumers cannot account for an switch away from apples, anti competitive conduct through their device purchasing behaviour that cost of app downloads and in app purchases are unknowable by the consumer at the time that you buy a smartphone in less than the price of the device. So You did when you buy an item. You are not as a consumer aware, but contractual relationship with epic games unless you're a verse cast listener. Unless you're, let's you and god bless you all and you're, not aware of it. Gort now that you're, like a teenager and fortnight being the night indifference being aware of it in your certainly because prices like the marginal cost to you is so low, depending on the contract fifty san francis thirty percent to you as a consumer? Is pennies right, be it's not going play a factor decision, so they're saying actually apple's lock in is preventing this is preventing consumers from exercising their power in the market and forcing apple to be better. This is a harness like the heart of this argument is

ecosystem, walking, which, again, if you've listened to shut like when I say like. I read this and other subvert episode like what have we always suck and it's ecosystem lock in how many times is imessage messenger mentioned in the eye, The truth is so fast looking for its not in here David. So there's like this one argument that it's too hard to learn android, if you're an eyelash, I don't buy it but then there's this, which does make sense. Switching from ios may cause significant loss of personal and financial investment that consumers put into the ecosystem. You have a bunch of apps that you've bought you're gonna have to let go of. You have a bunch of inept content that you might have bought that only works on that phone. You might not get all the apps that you want all this stuff. Is there and you've put it into ios you spent. Money investing I was and then you ve got family in user lock in. So if you have your family members, I ios and all of your purchases are shared. Switching to android is a very high cost faced. Listen, there's that's in here. Oh I messages in here for

I'm find my message airdrop. These are all features that you might use to prevent you from switching so they're they're making the argument. you're switching cost us consumers so high compared to the marginal right. Seven. Ninety, nine, if you buy the box fortnight, direct its nine. Ninety nine, if you buy it with apple, that two dollars is not enough to offset you're lock in costs for switching costs, and then The argument you are also in the apple ecosystem, so, if you're an iphone you're likely by mac you're likely to buy an ipad that ecosystem lock in once you, the consumer, from exercising our power there, is to me it's the argument right there saying the market does not function. Because you can't consumers cannot actually switch away so protest apples policies, they may not know about them. The same causes so high in the marginal cost to consumers of fifteen thirty, twenty, whatever percent is a dollar. So why would you? Why would you care? So

the argument here isn't so much apple shouldn't be allowed to have a locked in ecosystem? Is that a function of locked in ecosystem is that people really can't such a way because it costs too much and therefore it should be better regulated. It's a little bit more nuances of traditional. How dare they walled garden? It's go ahead and have your walled garden, but because you have walled garden. Somebody needs to be able to go in and prune the bushes it. I think this is more the argument of what we built ios. We should get to do whatever we want on it. It's huge I will see you have also actively bill barriers to access to customers. I was in if you believe, as I think most people believe that. Phones are the most important computers and our lives then that we should evaluate that right, like is this a computer is a general purpose computer. This is like that council argument right leg epic? Isn't suing so you, microsoft, word pierce for an xbox policies, because those are deemed consuls like their targeted device

is. There is competition between the two, but these are general purpose computers and they can point to the mac which they do in this they're all of these arguments: apples making a security and privacy and user safety. They could make what the mac, but they dont, do it on a mac, and you can see that now is that a good argument relating to them windows s up applications. I don't know, but it's right there for them in a go and make it so that the specific piece of the puzzle are here. The markets. The market is, I was distribution. Here's where the market has failed right. Here's where the market isn't getting signal from consumers, what what they want and are not getting signal from developers, because why should the other way they're getting a lot of signal from developer sing like this, but because there is pressure from the other side. Apple is the guy keeper and saying we actually dont have to react to the market and developers can we do, A verse cast- and I trust lightning round with terms that I think, are listeners, a proverb,

There's two specifically want to talk about market definition and consumer harm, because when we ve talked about anti trust in the passive and like well, the definition has been. Does it make does? Do consumers have to pay more and like that definition sucks, we need some other definition. I dunno what that is anymore and then there's like market definition, which is, if you have a monopoly you have to like control the market. But if you like, redefined the market to be some other bigger thing, then it's no longer monopoly. So in Google's case it's we don't have a monopoly on on the that's because, third, that the market is all of advertising in his area, bread, the amazon, makes the same case of retail. We do have monopoly because we compete with dino Jos. You know popsicle stand or whatever. So do those two things that we talk about a bunch apply, to its going on here. They do not in any way related in this very specific way, which is an slot over the past longer than that. Forty. Fifty years

it's gotten, increasingly more technical and like math, based because of the consumer welfare standard rate so the consumer welfare center says it's: it's not a problem list prices go up and that invited a million economists to show up and issue surveys and data and studies about whether or not prices go up. through its everything, urgent interest, became this very tangled, complicated math problem, and I think that has lead people to approach. Components of the legal arguments is matthew, comes. So it's not a problem, as you have fifty one percent of the market right right and then you can define the marketing you can do that. That's, I think I think that's a mistake in one of the big pushes sort of in response very lately is to get away from that hyper technical, economic to antitrust law and say: look. You can feel it, and one of the reasons for that is amazon like amazon like lowers,

is Google services are free like? How can you prove prices will go up when the price is free or buying? Another competitor will just mean more free stuff paid for by monopoly profit somewhere else, So there's a big push on there, but I think it I it's from like my twitter replies, audience. We like law is in a math problem like built into it. Doktor of how cases are decided is the very real possibility. The judges get it wrong and be overturned in india, The judges will have gotten it wrong and someone else will look at it and maybe it will overturn them. So, there's not like an algorithm here that says, if you have fifty one percent market share and you defined it this way, and you make this much money. It's definitely wrong. There's just a bunch of people in suits yelling at each other in a structured way, but like the on the margin in its yet the first thing to do is to find the market. What market are you talking about? That's a first argue and you obviously want you know here. Epic wants to define

market such an apple is obviously the monopoly. I was apt distribution and apple or to find a market is upstairs and say. Look at how many appstore, sir, I think that's just sort of us. It's less important about what the percentages, because the big push here is what actually happening to users. We that's the political climate that were in very important turns that's the apple argument. They make three there's likes six federal claims. There are a bunch of calphurnia stay claims our son goes thrown in like Maybe california law is stronger. You know like, but basically they're saying the ios app distribution market is a meaningful market. They've got monopoly power to do something wrong and their payment market is a valid market, they're doing something wrong over and over over again, if you read the complaint- and you should, you will note that it's written as though everything is true that everything they're saying is

It's true yeah, because that's how complaints are written that not like they're, saying they're, saying what they believe apple will have to reply will soon what apple has, but that's the one it is very much about ecosystem lookin like the heart of this is this market has failed, because consumers cannot express their preferences about apples prices because a lot- and that is very different to the Google argument right epics point here with or is it the first markedly define? Is the merchant market for mobile operating systems, which is very boring, all that basically means that windows one failed, deanna. That's what that means. we're going to serve as do our it's like there's a theme right. If you want to make a phone you have to use android than us. They are very clear about this in a so. If you want make a phone, you have to use android you want to use android you end up in Google play services. You end up using google placed or again it sounds like an apple

cast once you do, that google has a lot of power over you talk about these contracts a lot, and so if you want to make an alternative appstore. The argument here from epic is yet you can make your own appstore, but andred is designed to make that scary. I'll tell you that cited files are dangerous. It will pop up warnings about. I shouldn't do it. It has security features like clay, protect that restrict you. You have to endure silently and warns you alternative abattoirs are not allowed to. Otto updating, which is a key feature of appstore, is certain Yes, they ve got this argument, sideloading is available to you, but at every turn the users told not to do it so that design decision and then there are multiple examples in this complaint of contractual restrictions placed on phone vendors to keep them from working with epic, so that this is why

when I was talking about a google statement on how to android is open, you could saudi store. You want it's fuzzy because, historically, like in the misty mists of time before the iphone was released and like broke the carrier monopoly and everything was what crap were. The most important thing about. Phones was what was on deck and on deck meant what got preloaded out of the box when he you know, bought it from the carrier. Those games. That was the only way to make money with an app full stop and so all of the negotiations,

if software were these like really complex, gnarly backrooms, smoke, room filled, room deals with carriers and manufacturers right ahead of the phone's release, and then the iphone came along and it's like. You know what we don't like a t and t, and we think this thing is pretty good, so we're just not going to do any of that shit and it worked, and then every everything was beautiful and glorious until Samsung wanted to get a deal from verizon and things started turning down a little bit. But it turns out that that was never. The story was never that clean on android anyway, because Google has been using it's power with the play store to get all sorts of stuff on dec from manufacturers and carriers. You know when you open up your android phone and there's a folder that says google on it. There's a reason for that. There's money behind that and epic is specifically sort of like pulling the curtain back a little bit more on some of those like backroom deal.

to get stuff on deck to push the girl. The google play store that we are aware of before we knew some of it from Russell brand. Them got some looked at some contracts in france. I believe it was the E. U has gone after Google specifically for this stuff and we could get into all the browser ballot. Blah blah blah blah, but like fundamentally at the core of epic's case, is Google's stance. That android is open. You can do whatever you want fundamentally isn't true, because Google exercises so much power behind the scenes before the phone even shows up in the store, and that power is is basically something called Google mobile services, which is like an a p, a a pr layer, the soft bundle, with with any phone at least that you can get access to google playstore. What that she does is if you're a developer, you create an app say, a crazed snapchat. I rely on

then the camera pill, is it something that he has been bundling more and more of those it's gms over the years so basically become reliant on this. This layer that comes with android google, yahoo android, this cool it look good, Would I o sp and if you want to go to another store and run the app sideload it on another stole it just won't work because it lays there like, and these apps just don't work like I have you'd be surprised. How many do work, so this is specifically called out and the complaint. So, where the of the complaint against apple, and I called the heart minutes of airline complaint, but that big arcane argument. The epic makes sense apple is here in a pair downfall. but what's really here and the Google complaint? That's not, and the apple complaint is that licence, so they called the mobile occasion distribution agreement through them through that agreement The law requires only aims to locate the place or in the homes really reach mobile device. They must further preinstalled to thirty google, mandatory apps,

he does absent. Homespun and extreme. These requirements ensure that place oarsmen. Visible appstore any user encounters in places any other sort of significant disadvantage. and then it goes on to say: hey. We actually tried to make a deal with one plus right, where one plus has high refreshing refresh rate screens we're gonna principle: if the game store, we are going to run at the highest frame rate possible and then Google stepped in and said no, and, to that end we actually only launched ideal in india and one market wherever could get, it were more epoch in one plus get away with it. They quote from one plus two epic, Google is particularly concerned that epic games app, where the ability to potentially install and update multiple games have a silent, installer, bypassing the play store getting around this. The app will be rejected due to the epic games at serving his potential portfolio of games and games. Update in competition play store, so we got this evidence from one plus. There are gonna make this deal to do side, loading and run fortnight at a higher frame rate and Google sentence had now.

algae had the same. There's evidence here of lg, saying in a contract with Google that blocked side downloading of the Google play store this year. But if you use a place where we can definitely coordinate available, Google prevented LG from installing the epic games app on lg devices. So what you are looking at is yep they've got this technical out. You can check the box. Sideloading is available on android, but at every turn. Epic's claim is that google makes that hard for consumers. Possible for aliens. This, I think, gets to the other thing. I've seen oliver twitter in a vast day. What, if it really wants to do, is make it son store and take its own cut right. There It's a totally self serving. All they want to do is take even more money in makes team for france. Yes, They wanted to do that. I think game here is: if they did, that, would you trust it as it can? Why would you trust that it was a safe and secure the? I was absolutely google offshore would do

would they offer a lower rate to developers and when that forced the rate on the google and apple source to get him cause? That would just be competition. I think it's totally acceptable for epic to have a very. serving interest here, because what you want is competition for at distribution and that I should have said this at the top, but the beginning of both these complaints. Ethics, as we are not. For money, we do not request any money, we don't requesting compensation, we want any damages. We just want this changed so that we can compete Which, I think is a very smart, also epic, prince money in fortnight. Sell fake money to people for real money. That's their business! It's incredible that this also. context that they can just do that and of course they won't ap stools within apps. Those like this is litchi tim sweeney's argument with windows and with the hololens and stuff like that, he's been a beak against the window, stone and allows

look down, microsoft attempted there and for good reason by other line here, there's something called the de developer distribution agreements. every sign if you wanted deliver an app in Google play, restricts you from selling an app store in the place or so what? If you, I made it your own actual. What would be the best way to put it out in the world would be to put play store and so ethics argument is you're, making it at every turn. You are making it hard to silent on android and one of the one of the places where making heart is. I we can't put the epic game store in the play store, which is very circular where you can't get the epic game stars and samson galaxy store. That's amazing said, and there's this like long part and unjust read these words to you, and I just want to see if you guys laugh as hard as I did direct downloading android mobile devices, our it differs dramatically. Google ensures the andred process is technically complex, confusing and threatening filled.

the dire warnings that scare most consumers into abandoning the lengthy process? This makes it seem like your phone lights on fire when you try to set that I'm like isn't. It doesn't feel like that. It's not that bad! It's not it's, not as nice as it could be. I I agree with the fact that, like the the warnings are just like ten percent more arcane and scary, that I think they need to be, but Google has an incentive to do that. If you you know like, if they don't make 'em a little bit scary, then you know people are just going to go, install a bunch of really bad. Pirated shit right. That's that's the reason if you want to give Google the benefit of the doubt on those warnings and if it is fair to say that consumers have gotten used to the idea of napster now so like china, I'd load. Ups with, like we're security warnings is gonna. Make people go. Her shadow was out, Let's take. I think google and apple both have valid security arguments which, just like take them at face value.

there are more phones and any other kind of computers in the world, more people, use them at every level of sophistication. Android in particular, have had malware issues in the past. Phones are high profile targets for hackers and security people shouldn't they be lockdown like if you make a world in which there a bunch of malware on the web, saying download this app store in an app store. It can download whatever apps at once. Like are you opening up? the bad thing I mean I would have more simply said argument if we didn't somehow survive. Nineteen. Seventy five through two thousand five without the backlog. I like computers smashed there were some close apocalypses along the way, okay sure, but just red sand, worm yeah. Okay, I did just read sand where it's it's a lot. I dunno the the the thing about android in particular, is even if you

even if you never install a single out from the google placed on, but you still have. Google officers is their scanning, your apps and checking for stuff, and they can like they come remotely reach into your phone and pull something bad out if they, if they know something bad as on there, there is actually a much higher level of control separate from the appstore on andrade in particular. That doesn't get talked about all that, often because it doesn't we do we don't see it on most the big name apps, but there's a slew of like just bought over the barrow garbage malware stuff that Google just has an index of. Is looking for constantly and could just reach into your phone and pull out whether you side, loaded or installed by the playstore tom I've. I feel like the windows example, is kind of instructive here, yeah right, like windows has had to get. Increasingly more lockdown after assure the the windows, ninety five free for all. How does that model work well. I meant that east is kind of similar, so it's some of the stuff that, like Google, does especially on android cosette

it pretty much the equivalent right click android is the mobile equivalent of windows in the very many ways. Unlike these agreements of atlas de sac, what Michael feasted in the nineties, they used to force all their partners to bundle certain things or like they couldn't do this, and they can do that like it's. Just the classic sort of thing that that microsoft used to do windows, how it's changed is oversee windows. I been influenced by mobile phones, got appear in their pocket now I might just tried to respond by light, trying to lock things down, but not in the same soul, fundamental way, so that the difference here is that, like, if might suppose, to win in the hollow generation if they won the l and one was wearing a computer on the face, and that's the next thing to wheat all day, then the differences, the vet she committed to allowing app stills an online platform and TIM Sweeney was part of that announcement. It says something they've committed dude, like they probably won't win it, because you know google and apple have that dominance there, that they, the mics, will just complain

if, if, if, if we're ever going to wear these things in our faces anyway feel it on on on windows itself, they tried to like his sandbox apps, so he wouldn't get these like ransomware malware crap with stuff happening on windows, so they've tried taking some good aspects of the mobile site in choice, plans, windows, but on windows has a scanning utility much like dieter described on android right, I think. Maybe they don't have the ability to reach in and grab something. But if you download a file like, I think it's called smart screen. That is a right and try to run it. They like an index that stop you from its well, yeah smartscreen would basically flag up something and it was the crime. Does it as well? There's multiple layers of the stuff minute as defender it's just like their antivirus but smartscreen base, gisele flight takes a check of the phone says. Does anyone actually download this regularly and it will say this hasn't been download directly or this? This isn't like a certified file d. Sure you wouldn't run it and you have to go through some scary prompts to

it's a carnival. I really dig into it. She allowed to run so well so on the mac apple is doing code signing for mac applications, so you can. but a mac application from anywhere, but if they did all browsing signed it with apple and apple does have some keys to jump through some hoops right. The reason I wanted to get into it is: I think that is apple, noodles, best argument here. We have seen. We have looked chaos in the face with open up distribution in the desktop. There is not one the two orders of magnitude more of these devices in the world. We air aren't they. our cameras and microphones that people care and location trackers that people carry with them all the time the stakes are high. I it's very funny when apple newark we're not smart enough to solve the spotlight on the thirty four If you are in there are these like mechanics that they use on the desktop that you could maybe apply. I think that, like I don't have a point of view on it. Right at any its that's the thorniest. Part of this is

One of the reasons my parents have iphones is because I just don't have to worry about some of the stuff. I think the answer is like have a second app still on on the on the iphone. I mean it's just complicated for consumers just yet at la a beer, crate. Good competition show maybe, but I the answer just first, the policies, the apple applies to be more fair and fair and they're caught like that. They can take a cut like entitled to a cut for running that service, but but think think, for is the car right. Let us does it does a huge amount as the differences. actually, when we're talking about games, he's a difference between a studio hurrying to more people, fertile or light. Can I not focusing on so many games? Blotchy pointsman love into a tail then than not move. We were told at sea of joint operations at the moment. That is really think. That goes all the way down to indian you see Tom in

Eighty seven, if you wanted to buy a software from babbage, is you had to walk into a store and paper cardboard box and they took like a fifty percent cut more stress the. Nor is it then but I would like there are multiple stores I mean that's like this comes down to there used to be a lot of competition and maybe- Numbers were higher, but if you are If you are a software vendor, if you are and what does it matter the made organ trail. If you, I mean you workin trail in your you're, like I'm mad at babbage software city, like you, could do it and it also comes to like- went wind, Steve jobs lost his app in two thousand and eight. he specifically said it, he said to let wall street we did. Finances can be a massive profit, generator and stuff, even though they had the seventy for a split. But we think this is going to improve the value of the iphone

and make us so more of the life iphone hardware, which is where we make our money like. That was the original, where you truly fall down all like, but I think it comes down to that like it should, should apple, be allowed to take that thirty percent count on everything. Now, just because they've created this railroad, or should they be a bit more flexible, either like an I don't know with enough or app store solves that I don't know if kidding. Some of these iowa's policy solves that, but I think the key thing is that phillips has been a sticking point for spotify. You name it everyone else that everyone's upset about that philip ST cup, because it is everything to bring us back to where we start right. Timing is a great point. Apple statement with hay with fortnight with spotify is we're very

He built a business on our platform, but it's our platform and with hey there, like we never paid a cent in here. It's like we give you tools and distribution and advertising. We make these great phones like pay the money and either you find that very convincing, or you think that is a bad argument for apple to take a cut of everything that happens on it's fun. Right like that is, I would just want apple's the richest company in the world. They do not need to take a cut of everything They have so much money, they there every time they do results through doing share by backs in dividends. Rather returning, to investors at a high rate. They don't, I need the money for r and d or investment or tooling or whatever you need to make the next phone. So I you got it, I mean I don't have a position on it should, I will get a kind of anything happens on the phone like maybe like I, I think it's great, that my parents, credit card is like not

being entered into text fields all over the internet? That makes me happy you know, but is the argument we built the phone and now you're going to pay a tax if you want to access a consumer. A good argument like that. Very much at the heart of all this, I want to end on a wall. This is not an end. First of all, this case. I read these complaints. Epic is not backing down right there. Not asking for money there's no amount of money that you can pay him sweeney to make them go away. They're asking for structural change, how we source work, they hired the fanciest law firm. They can hire for this thing in opposition to that law firms own history of litigation, thou offer him also wants a big. Taylor when there is a congressional antitrust, an essay on there state law and I trust in us asians van therein, this thing for them either apple new are gonna back down tomorrow, which I don't think they are going to do or they're gonna wanna get this thing to this agreement, so I think we're in silence for a long time

and think there is a lot of like discovery in emails and all that stuff is going happen. So we You can start documenting, allows us we're in a document of the next ten years, we're alive, but I will end on this, the most of it cast. Wonky thing serve. Reading complaints against the cat I notice that all the counts are the sherman act, which is one of the anti trust regulations in america and that the Clayton act, which is the other one, the Clayton act is very specific. It prevents tying right. It has anti tying anti exclusive dealing like ours, those things specifically because the sherman act was that specific or powerful enough for terrorism. We'll think! Ok, I tweet, I don't understand, is why didn t when they use these specific laws in clayton, in a bunch of lawyers replied to me. The Clayton act only covers the sale of goods. Physical goods are fortnight skins goods. I mean they're good,

I to a commodity array. They are they sheets of copper piping, whenever whatever bright like that, We are wrapped with the law. I think the laws are written in like nineteen, seventeen of us. That's the problem with these. These laws are so old and things move so false light. Anyone anywhere does is for today yeah. I would like more credit for the weak joke, but we can't we should move on to the sherman. Antitrust act is eighteen. Ninety clayton act is nineteen fourteen and so it's a real question. Whether a digital good in fortnight meets the requirements of goods but like in terms of verge cast questions answering Alright, we gotta take a break, we're not going to do another hour on the meaning of gods. Although dieter, I can see his eyes he's raring to go, we'll have a special episode of the verge has studied, are just ranting about the nature of virtual scarcity. Look for that! Never this ain't, a reg

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support for the show comes from gold peak, real routine, there's a time a day about an hour before sunset, where the rays feel warm and the breeze feels cool. But the half hour of golden palace is always gone too soon. You may rekindle that feeling, with a bar of gold peak made with high quality tea, leaves it smooth taste transports you to golden hour at any hour gold peak tea. It's got to be gold, alright enough antitrust law. Let's talk about some flippy phones. There out. What is a phone? I thought Lauren good had a great peace at wired where she was like microsoft this ultimate mobile productivity device, and now they have to convince you that it's good on the couch,

It was. There was a funny, but tom servers darrow's out no he's a hardware. Talk tells me. so it's coming September tim I mean we can I know, but I guess we between knew most things apart from the specs inside and a fiend, that's been quite, the conversation is sweet, the specs and the price. Those are the two soft things we learned this week and sites fully. One hundred, ics, which is probably I'd, say four hundred more or more than it should have been. The salon and the specs are old. I got eight eight five, five of income, a qualcomm eight for first snapdragon.

Hopefully the processor in there no nfc, no five g and the batteries kind of deadly for two screens. I think it's just a bunch of questions around it but like- and I know if one's going to talk about that and analysis of buffing. There is kind of like an aside to what they're trying to do, and I think like when the surf first surface pro came out. Abrams doing the same thing. That was this thing's weird and then surface pro three came along when it was like. Oh okay, I understand, vision. I think that's where they want to go with. This is whether their vision is correct, whether you need to screens on mobile to like do more if you believe that are financed, thus the fundamental and whether they can twist the arm of an operating system that they dont technically control into making those tooth its work. I mean they're, like literally adorable, on twitter at each other right now, re like yeah, but they're, not the developers of all the other acts at ease on android. So, like

got me like andred has supported tablets for so long and the story with android is that tablet apps, basically don't exist on enter it. So, like the hacker microsoft make that work, think the only way, I think the way that the dream Initially, with this hard won, a nose knows sexy, looking as the full tuna faint but having it two screens separate. She gives them that kind of like appid VON engine away, because those apps do run simply didn't have to span across the the bigger display, and so they kind of getting away of it initially and I'm sure the sphinx could fold in a couple of generations right. So I actually think the surface duo looks better than the galaxy fold, but I dunno if it'll work better, and let me give you my hottest hottest, take the ready, they couldn't fit a good bit of battery and there they had to go through all the process right or actually care about that. I'm not like. If suspects are bad, it's gonna be bad. I love the pixel for, for example, so it's possible to overcome media respects. I very worried about the key

era, and I'm worried that they're not going to nail it on the first try, so my hottest hottest take. Is they know that they don't have it yet that it's going to take a little while longer for them to get better at hardware for it to be what they want it to be. They got to work on the software and because the specs are bad and old, they chose to price it high because then fewer people would buy it because then it will be less likely to tank the thing in everybody's minds, because only a core group of enthusiasts will buy it and that will give them time to continue iterating added for v, two and v three I mean so yeah. I think that's fair. I mean the the way I think about it right with any surface to us whenever they launch a new one. So it was brings me back to this quote from Ralph who's, the the design laid rough ground, and he said we have like free generations of surfers. Put up where we launch one on one free

fables in a secret room at microsoft. So they know where they're going. Let the third generation is like the the the perfect wanting. Thus, thus, where they're going see, he was at a look for that third generation of surface stuff, because that's ultimately the the vision realized with the the hardware they're able to do something anything that they do up. To. That point is like testing the walls and getting developers interested they need. They need something for people to build on sets to get these things going so it was brings me back to that so yeah yeah. I wouldn't surprise me if that's the the grand plan when they announced it, we had panis on the podcast. I we've got to use it for a minute. He let me swipe through phone I've seen sergeant, Adela use it as his phone another event, but I'm reading the coverage in my care and cracking too fast company had one hears. I visit pretty buggy, and so I am I what happened

It's like last year it was like. I was watching the ceo of microsoft. Maybe he was just like pretending to use it, but like it was, he was using it for real and like we flip through passes, and it looked fine. So I'm curious what happened along the journey to making, complete, so they haven't really demonstrated much of it. If you remember, when we had it, we we were able to take photos. We couldn't really touch it play around that one of the first public demonstrations they did. It was like a developer event and it crushed in the middle, like they couldn't spot apps and suppose it was super late. Just lucky because of the two screens and everyone's like you know, speyer is still coming and they did the precedent every day that behind closed doors thing and a couple of times, the apps crush there as well. It seemed a lot more polished in the lawless, lagging stuff, and these are microsoft. Own apps, right like this is my office and outlook and, like word crashing, there might have been a candle crime, There was a third party crushed

which one of us, but I mean Things happened during them as the stuff but like it would not surprise me if this year, if there's gonna be soon some bugs around the edges. Here, especially just happens to power to displays So someone pointed this out at me when Ass was on the verge hast announce. We said how is your they What do we honestly, if you're, an executive shovel in your product are shared as enterprise? May I ask how much it costs for an hour just be ready for it? What's pricing and the thing it'd be like I'm not going to tell you, Imagine we happier unhappy super describe my feelings, mighty you'll be elated, isolated, yeah, I think you'll be pretty pumped about it. I am very happy I dont know thirteen hundred dollars, fourteen hundred Thirteen was ninety nine. I don't That was the number has had when he told me as super abbe right like that, can't be the case but at the same time I think it's like to four

each has to say they raise the price ice high would buy it and they could skate out afresh in are like, I said it was I you it sounds like you're going to get one and Joanna is going to get one in lorraine and marquez and, like all the These reviewers that people like entrust are going to be like this. Very expensive, this processors a year old and this kinda lap is a mess right like That is all going to be in the world like they sought. Pen us is not. You're trying to make a half a product like he'd, obviously cares about the products being good. I maybe the speck and maybe the development and covered pushed it back, but I think the part where they're trying to hide a bad product announcing it with like the world's most adorable tweets at the operating system vendor you know like I, I just something they're playing that game now. I think that the fundamentals of it with the way wavy look at the basic color, like I say equally the hardware and the priceless stuff is ready with any two screens away for that such

change the way we use fence like as this is the promises samsung like it. say it was like the pillar of the future or It was pretty grand statements, so, if might suspect in as well, but something's happening out of her, let its nessus sorry, but I will tell you having just used the busted ass fold a couple of times. Yes, I want to have a thing that folded into a bigger canvas full stop it's great. I love it and you know like we have ipads at home and I would say, like half the time I'll catch myself, just like on my phone for half an hour. My ipad is two feet away as like what am I doing? Why am I not using the good screen and so having the thing that you're going to pull up? Look at anyway, be the good screen is very, very compelling. I think I kind of agree with samson myself, I'm just them. I'm apprehensive about whether the holiday will truly get their say. So I think the suffering stuff you can do anything to offer us

thus less of an issue, but getting harder there in the next few years is sir This can mean things like fordable glass, so I walk. May I just recall penrose being very sceptical of plastic streets right yeah. There was just been a lot of hints in the world where microsoft wants to go, is foldable glass and they're. Waiting on cornering and cording has some prototypes out there like. I think the big bet for all these companies is a form factor shift. right. We that's what they're saying like we ve done. Rectangles, we lost it rectangles. What about squares microsoft's time shine in

whether or not you believe the course green technology is good enough to enable that fold and you are a dual displays and just get people there any it smart. I think the big question is right: it's app developers, its ecosystem, its whether I mean I just I live right said this anecdote on average has ten thousand times, so I just remember tony fidelity like every We changed that the way the public's right like one year it was fat and one year was skinny and one year didn't have any buttons and the next year, like buttons again like they just made it look different a lot and that kept consume interest high in what was effectively the same product over and over again and like that it's just? It's a lesson that has stuck with me as a funds like continue to be rectangles how to make it look different. You may fold in half,

if microsoft can just capture that moment and get people to buy it on their android phone in, like cut a deal with epic it'd, be like fortnite's on this phone like it's a pretty. There are big moments for them to capture attention. Yeah now I agree and I think the app development site is going to be crucial. Isn't it like, especially given the android situation with the tablets and stuff yeah? I mean both mike, soft and android have shown an incredible ability to get developers to make apps for platforms. The interesting sort of thing about This, though, is that, like me, please samsung engineers, a little while before covert, were onsite marks of workable, some stuff, like that their little partnership going on and now the same sort of thing going on with you like or free of those are trying to do similar so stuff, but from their own perspective areas. we see super interesting to see like where android that adopts and changes- and it also seeping someone's apple- comes into this side of it.

Shakes it all up as well cause. I I don't think they going to be that far off, probably not to freeze away, maybe yeah I mean, I think, apple's apple, apple and samsung are just like different that way or like samsung will put out the not ready technology this is this: is it right? They want to be seen as innovative rights, what's your red on the Google side, because they see happy to have another vendor that wants to compete with samson migrants, hudson's. Center super close though and samson is obviously doing all this extra stuff. What is the what school's position here?

there's a rumor that there's a foldable pixel coming along. So that won't matter but say they have been very, very excited about foldable for a couple of years. Now I would like they'd. You know I get to go in and look at the burst of android. That is going to be like official with all the new features pretty early, and it's been like two, almost three years that have been like foldable man, it's real and maybe that's just the new. The surface doors coming into the galaxy fold is coming, but I feel like there's one more turn

in the hardware that google those is coming that is excited about, and it also knows that android or something Google need some kind of operating system on a big screen that isn't cromwell s in schools. Right they just they do they. They dont have a general computing platform that the use for york, your work unless you're like into cromwell ass, an you stick with cromwell s after you get out of school right, has entered his terrible on big screens, and so full details gives them another crack at having a successful platform outside of phones cause. If they ve got, it was cromwell s in one context, but they dont have it in the generalised context. The way that like windows, mac or ipad does yeah, like the the thing that that's really super interesting to me about all. This is that when they announced the July, microsoft did not have any october. They also can have announced a partnership with Google right with it like they they cut it. Didn't really dig into it, but the the dream is all that there's like gibson takes

that will go far beyond just android and if you, if you set in the context of life, will apples due on the mac and arms I'd uneasy with it's going with that could potentially lead to. Then you see samsung and microsoft to end their partnership, and you could obviously see this can go up against that and it's like. Where does google fit in there, and where does Kramer is finn and and windows and like how do those things have come together, because windows is basically the desktop equivalent of android android, the mobile critical windows, so dewey in the future see a partnership between microsoft and Google, where android apps run on windows. Oh sure I totally by that's gonna have who's gonna happen. I also something's gonna, give the and the same the same. Let the kremlin stuff like where that goes, but it is definitely like such a different mix going on and the deal is just a part of that, an issue that is trying to be that the future of mobile devices. I think the fundamentals that guy round going on behind the scenes can be super instant watch to see you

as one who gives what whoever it means at- and I might so so has gone down a tree with chromium like what does that mean in the future, like this there's so much stuff going I think the only obvious answers and I started to merge- were fight. Our interests episode, we have gone credibly long, dieter made a reed, the four android headlines, because this matter headlines, who is making every android phone a size monitor to create a worldwide earthquake detection network at the first ones to use funds s eyes, monitors but they're, putting it an olive android which, as you, They have added better accessibility options to their like look out app. They have Dan loves us one. They put the counter out back and entered otto, which has great and data specially loves the new. Whereas s news can't wait. Twenty percent faster it'll almost be fast, ass. Great an

me. You skip the new xbox series s out of the controller, though, as a crazy. We and xbox series x coming on, the sixth. Maybe they'll have fortnite on it. Maybe it won't, who knows maybe oh, come on babe november sixth, is definitely command of mls a weeknight. A lot of news? Is we thank you for sticking with us through this, my one Oh and I trust seminar. I had a good, I am. Thank you, gentlemen. Let's see, if I can do all the twitter handles dennis d c, seaford theaters back on thomas Tom Warren, I'm actually a he about microsoft, sweet of you, see. If I can have many answers. Egon authors. Newsletter processor throws icon newsletter, there's odyssey all when the policy is happening. Cases. User interface comes back next week on tuesday as scenery was superfine lotta Swartz a

professor at the university of virginia, has a book about money. Money is a communications and network. We are all the into out at one point the sea. Our was like. I will control one of the only digital currencies in the world. Wild book, That's coming out and tuesday say is innovative, so we're back next right of cheshire. That's it we're mass a re reynolds at mid mobile, we like to do the opposite of what they wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally, when they announced that we raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices

due to not hating you that's right. We're cutting the price of mint, unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try, mint mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation, an upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply cement, mobile dot com for full terms. Hey, I'm ryan reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless does they charge? You? A lot we charge you a little so naturally, when they announced they'd, be raising their prices due to inflation. We just added to deflate our prices due to not hating you that's right. We're cutting the price of mint, unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It mint mobile dot com, slash, switch new activation, an upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply cement, mobile dot com for full terms,.