This observer has brought you buy, I b m, so fifteen million new collar jobs, we created by twenty twenty four and helpful them items the education model, gives high school students, workplace experience and associates degree. Ninety p tech schools are already preparing graduates for tomorrow stem careers. Let's put smart to work, find out how it I b m dot com, slash, p tech the hello, welcome the verge the final podcast of this week in every week in your life, I'll jokes here, omni eli Paul is here: dieter high. good leader, has arrived. A review to hear newton is joining us. This week has casey hey gang. it should be here, it's good to have a casey. This is like a all kc show. So here's what's going to happen. This is true earlier this week facing. I sat the internet's casey nice tat just arrived. The verge offices,

on a boost. Adored bearing a gift of hats. Off hot sauce, is delicious. Hideaway I'd. Try us His own brand of huts has his face on the label. it's very it's perfectly on ran. He is an asset shut up. We ve been trying for a while, but having on the reach us you shut up He stole unicycle from one of our video directors. You, echoed or around the office, and we talked for an hour on the record about everything, wild stuff. You thought about facebook and platform What he's doing future? We talk about what happened: a beam, Here's! What we're gonna! Do you on the virtuous this week? for us to talk about apple for a minute, because there's an apple event. week, then we're gonna run an edited version of the Kc interview. Knowing come back, casey newton here. and I really want him to talk to us about what is happening with face. Weaken came adrenalin, yes, and if you wanna hear the whole crew, the hour of casing. I sat and media chat and when I say in the feed, I will tell you that this is a

controversial plan, dieter hates this. So if you hate this plan, please tweet at backlog where he will carry. If you can This plan is smart. Please to at backline where he will disagree and just have this whole conversation away from me and, if you think fights about where the place an interview on a hilarious, please tweet all of us all love to hear that That's all doing this week. Transom knew was fun, conversation gacy, so awkward. But let's start with basically all things the only news at the weak there's not besides the facebook, selfish accra As I say, there is obviously that but when I say that decide, quietly and as event for next week in chicago, which is new, about their having at a high school, a public school. You attack public school, had they done that before now.

been a law if they have. I don't remember like they done something where they're like on the scene of nor is it, the applause was lonely catch. It wasn't like that. Wasn't it education focused event that was like a bunch of the college students had to contend with bonnet. They were a campus for the day. They were there, teaching us all how not to make watch later on. They learn how to do right. Data on tuesday tuesday. It is starting at ten a m central time. levin m eastern time. Eight am pacific time time zones are high. Heard some of the best time zone the single best times. In other words, I say this crowd midwestern, I did some traitor stuff right now. I grew up on central time. Central time was a friend of mine. Central time is a bad time zone. Disagree anyway, I'm not going. This is true. You know I like to go to apple events, but that he has baby any minute. Doctor

Told me not to go there, she didn't tell me not to go. I said: can I go to this work trolled, you yeah, and he looked at me and he said: well, it probably won't happen, but if you go at the definitely well just sort of like smiled and walked out of the room. As doctor leonard cheese man, he placed you under a curse yeah, so I'm not going with Dita and Dana Lauren are going that'll be exciting, we're thinking. I just I've had state or what sir, what survive? Well, so number just had a thing that their pre they're pretty confident there release a new version of ibooks that will just be called books or maybe apple books were deftly, expecting ipads The apple has one regulatory approval for a couple do ipads in europe. I think it was yes, and there's also just been like swirling rumours that they're gonna make a big at cheaper ipad we get way into,

That is also this thing that has been spotted in the beta called class kit, which is apparently a thing for developers to make apps that work in the classroom and then the other like there's other question marks, so definitely books, I'm pretty I would think deftly ipads deftly class cat, but then there have been rumours of a cheaper macbook air. Ah I have how do you make them less, but cheaper he's already serious lights up? They make you just make it cheaper to you. things the same rights Non right, limousine, here's an idea, it's unapologetically cardboard better now been like it's already. It's already way behind right, it's a downright nutrients, usb, has been replaced by the macbook, which has everything you can eat. It's got a whole usb seaport.

so you think they're gonna, like red, ratify the mac worker. I dont know what I think if they do what they have to leave usb a on it, because that is what like schools are an argument in the truck with dangles. That's just the kids are going to swallow them they're, going to throw them at each other, like I don't trust, kids or dangles at all right, so they have to have regular usb a port on it and if they release a mac with like usb a ports, everybody on the planet. Like oh wait, I want that one they have to somehow nerve fits that nobody will actually wanted, except for classrooms, and I am imagining they're gonna position it as as like the education mac? That's like dirt. Cheap has an under power plants Certain doesn't even have a witness. It's basically the current macbook air. Honestly, though, just like, though reduce them and make it a plastic so that you can throw it throw to people in a word. It won't hurt them and then they'll, though, caught the map, the e mac, you mac, twenty eighteen, The? If you don't remember the email, was it

and I'm the best mac. I wasn't it, I'm accurate. It had different as it was an always looked like an eye, but it was white. It was a little more bullet shaped. It was huge was mass was massive. and they made it only for education, indeed or told me that he snakes one when he was in grad school. I mean if, if by snakes, when you mean that I was a student and therefore was allowed to buy an education mac than than yes, it was also my wife at the time was a teacher. So you know We had our ways we need. More of all of you make a purchase. The us at three hundred, then the only man I did actually curtsied emacs headphones, another audio jack. I think that might be made, in other words to headphone jackson, the front three usb port, Two firewire ports a modem, jack, ethernet and sectors. What is that big display-

yeah. I remember big display poor, because many myths, auditors said no one had to headphones exxon fronts the to like what is therefore, rather that was apples we many vizier connector gap. So here's the question that I dont know the answer to about this: let's take a field trip of it. The info patient that apple sense is a line. Drawing clearly, you know meant to have been drawn by an apple pencil by John yourself, the only the only ipads that support, the apple pencil, are the pro ipads and of apples going to release education ipad. What is it going to support apple, pencil, bigger or are they just gonna make the cheap? I think it is be the ipad is going to be a cheaper ipad. Just for education. That happens. This work the apple pencil. What are they going to do so? They already have a cheap ipad right. Three: twenty: the ipad net data doesnt support them. Mark keyboard or the oriental or the pin,

so why? Wouldn't you just bring literally leave that product alone and I had a smart, connector and pencil support to that and call it the ipad? It's the same. problem that dieter pointed out with the macbook air issue. You have created a really good product, Really good price of I've had per year. Will I thereby put rodya casey. I have a question so. My understanding is that One reason why apple may feel compelled to do this is because Google in particular has a lot of success getting into the classroom. So I would love to hear from you guys what sort of competitive pressure is apple, is underwrite. Now to not lose the education market, how all of these products that were theorizing about might actually help them claw back some market share from chrome books, so they ve lost lost apple has lost the education market. They have to train win it back up, lose more. It's like they're there.

Spank could move on. I thought the lost before the cromwell came along. well maybe but the crop up. The chronic has taken up case in taken over because their cheap and because they Quires zero, like I t, mate and you dont. You can like you just log in your account. Your stuff shows up and there's no like there's nothing else. It really. teachers chose- or I t administrators have to do, and so there dirt cheap there even maintain You lose one, it's fine and, like some other stuff in the cloud anyway and so just sort of the turn it on works, Google has done enough with the google sweet g g sweet to make classroom stuff better so like you at all it up, and it's like great for classrooms and to try and catch up apple has added a sort of

what the user thing kind of to the ipad, but it's very complicated and silly, and only available to students in classrooms anyway, and it's not true, multi user, like you, can do on a chromebook or windows machine and then also like three, twenty nine for an ipad is still like kind of expensive, especially when you have to buy a keyboard, a bluetooth keyboard to go along with it. You know you can go, buy a chromebook for one hundred. Seventy five bucks and like it'll, do fine for a fourth grader. That is not the case than ipad to take a little bit more crazy view. This, like now grounded in practical reality, whereas a little computers and schools were apple to ease that was needed, and it they were sick, inherently multi user, because nothing happened there. An urgent matter of like it was a big. Instead the council to happen because all we're doing is like playing oregon trail. What was the game with the fish odors like odell lake? that came was outline. I had no, amateurs and, in word, matures on my apple, two e in elementary school, very funding.

By the way then, sir, that back the next wave of that. was max and doesn't remember. No them acts in any of my skin. walls or the max. When I was like the the I dude in the college library had any user account stuff going on they eat. admin. Privileges like miss the system, but ever everyone has the same user account because all of your files, you are, either saving tiered network, try which lie in too easily in the log out of you're saving them literally on physical removal, desks right, you say to render floppy desk and carried floppy discs around me back. I live that zip discuss thou button. Whatever, Then they failed instantly and I have nothing but that man that apple, never really contented with the paradigm. In Malta, but you just never occurred to him and where they went to war. these extremely personal products right and you can see that now as pull the thread, all the way out,

they're, putting a washing arrest and putting your pods and your ears all of their products. Are these intensely designed for one person experience it's like, and then they have an eye book for every student type of thing like look at this cool school, where they bought an eye. Clear every bore with about it. I've had for everybody in The idea that every soon have this one, the one relationship with a product it or you, The consumer, this one to one relationship with a product that you bought is still pervasive and apple world. Like we talking about the apple tv, all the time, like the apples, you is greatest flaws. It refuses to recognise that you might have a family. I just like your fair. It just doesn't like them, I think in case you. The thing with chrome book is google. stanley and then very aggressively- has embraced the idea that the physical, computer is disposable in that paradigm is basically an epoch, see yeah, the classroom can be full of them and the students

take them with them. or you can give one to every student, unlike teachers, they break its fine. There are no stakes too, that device, killing the students in graduate. You still have them all you don't If you run a lower income school, you can just by a bunch of the grant, and then you have a bunch, and I just now alone and then the ease of administration, these of user counts. His recent apple has to come in with a more com, allowing multi user solution at a price point that is like more fleet oriented. in their entire brand envision right now is like we will. We will hold you in bubbles, the connected I clap I see you mentioned a crazy ideas earlier. So is this tell me dumb, this idea would be apple, makes like on, but clone ears log into your eye, clad account like would they ever have an incentive to do that in everyone's would ask him to make a clamshell ipod, since I passed since time immemorial by where

I'm shall sure ipod would be awesome that you know a super underrated part of apples. Entire suite is icloud dot com. So weird thing they give them credit for, but am I but my mama cambaluc pixel, the first gen one. Then she logs and I cried. I call on all the time in like uses it like an ipad, because, as such rain works perfectly well on crime, and she closed three has all rapid stuff. All this like sinking that she may amount to do her phone happens. Everything except I message right gap. It I mean I'm not looking up my mom's rate of tax may serve its, I love you mom I don't actually listen to show. But if you do, if you are now that I have I yeah it's, I think they could do that case because they have this product. It's like. close to it already right, but do you want to use the I worked? Isn't in their red they'd have to build all that I I think,

that's to me the fundamental reason google is pulling away, and now microsoft has done a bunch of that stuff as well. My niece nephew school is a windows pcs to everybody, it's the same kind of idea and they're, making ever cheaper versions of windows and ever cheaper windows, pcs, but fundamentally that the idea that apple's soft, not to multi use your well is. It was real. It's always at the imminent how expertise for them brokers are just trying to somewhere hardware. Who knows man. I dunno, I feel like it it. It has been on the ipad. Historically, rio, but I'm home How many parents at haven't ipad are not like fine honey to their kid read like all everybody its it. It still boggles my mind that there is not better so for that. Maybe this is the moment when they won't do that. I feel I understand multi user is very important. I feel like central edge apple has in this scenario

there are so many wonderful apps for creativity. I s and especially on the ipad. At the edge the google has. Is google docs which is how you do your homework. Yet so your school, do you wanna help kids do their homework or creed Sick beats music at the other thing. The other thing I've been wondering about is: how can suddenly without letting any the parents or administrators now give off kids. I message because that's what all these kids, these yeah, they all that they wish it does know, the ipod touch is basically dead. I guess a lot of kids just get iphones now, but that's a pretty expensive thing for man if you just walk out school one day now you haven't had I message device. You feel pretty good on your. Had with a keyboard.

You are the least who'll kid in the club, the whole carpet. We drop that supplements there are a whole I messaging yeah, I'm with you, you got access, tie message timeless, There is another thing we haven't talked about here: yeah much like apple. We have completely forgotten about the existence of the ip ipad, many yeah. Now I dont get the ipad many. every once in a while, you hear from people there like a lie. I had many almost brought loves his ipod, many I'll get it so. I give you have an iphone ten. You basically have an ipad mini, so that's the thing right I think it was was danner time in them in our little apple planning, meaning shredded point out that the only place apples website, where they had many, is probably features like their education portal. Then the ipad I will say an ipad many that you could sketch on much closer to like a mosque in size

or, if apple, made a pencil that worked on the iphone ten. I think we're map here's my predict I think we are completely over thinking this. I think that I think there are put out there an upgrade that three twenty ipad, their privately Sir, the same they're going to add the keyboard connector and maybe a cheaper stylus thing: okay, yeah I'll! Keep that cause the pencil is like nodded. You if you don't have thousand kids to have that product like the cat. By the way I I just kept on yelling passive stylus anytime, anybody tried to say anything. I like I interrupted lord good and felt terrible about issues like I've made a passive stance of the fact that the whole thing has kept on screaming passes stylus over and over again it was really disturbing put on his hat. Stylus sounds like a depeche mode. Album yeah wait. Now I really want to go to this event. What if it was the last time she saw I think

it'll be a cheap marseilles and the upside of that type had pressure will be faster processor, better screen, active stylus speakers. And then, if they do a macbook air it'll be just like another processor bob to macbook tobacco at a lower price. right now. You know I love the ipad more than most people and my ipad is like three and a half years old, but I do wanna upgrade it till I can get face Id on it. So I can stop logging in with touch id like an, but that is not happening next week. Rent like you have to wait till the fall for that or later pressure awaiting until later. For that yeah yeah, it is Don't understand apples upgrade cycles anymore. Like do you know, it'll come on the phone, tat. I had stood out like the rest of it who knows yeah. I think it depicts they realize that the ipad, something that people upgrade infrequently and therefore they should updated infrequently. I think, they're trying to match their up date cycle to people's upgrade cycle.

Which is why they're really slow at building new laptop or I dunno anyway. Let's us yeah, I'm gonna read this ad when might come back Well, a little half of my conversation, casey neistat, basically, which got wild by the way we talked about a lot of things is very real that I'm you come back. Casey Newton is gonna, tell us what the hell is going on facebook. So I read this ad location. I said the substance or just as you know, brought you were ibm, but twenty fifty the rope relational reach. Nearly ten billion in food production will need to grow by seven percent. What if artificial intelligence can help asks ibm? farmers already using it to increase crop yields, watson and the ilo. Clad provide access to whether they and analyze satellite imagery, The minor soil. Monsieur levels in reduced water waste, so as the population grows more food, can you put on tables, let's put smart to work, find it out ibm back home

such smart casey my status cases here in case you haven't, I get you on the show since four year since we it's off by southwest a year. That makes it sound like this is some sort of Lucy I later to block from here. My office has revised its just clean. You should publish, are am thread alongside this. Partnership is just like this tuesday. To ignore doesn't work has ones are not good for me for three hundred sixty five days, Can I tell the story of when we hung out of south myself south one of the most insane dinners of my entire life I think I may have been hosting that dinner, and I have no idea what I was getting myself into, whose very strange so Cnn interest acquired beam, that's right and casey denude invited me to dinner siemens. I've seen dinner, there's like insane guest list. You were there Corey book, I was there, it was like it's a big dinner Jeff sucker was asked. Is there alexis? Was there just a handy and was there? It was a great dinner. There were some

There are some some outliers there actually I was there, the cmos mark of samsung was there, and I remember like I was dressed as undress now like sweater and jeans or something there are some people there in suits I was also dressed like a piece of, and then there were a couple of people like in the corner that were like. Why did you invite me too yeah, I'm wearing sweatpants, so to speak? fancy dinner and its western, a roof of fertile, and our surprises us- and it was raining. torrential rain so got moved inside and Sucker was very angry, and so we hour and then the fire alarm went off and the door in the us, and the private chefs are cooking for us began to slowly close by itself, and if I could paint the picture a little bit more, it's like a big big room like a like a substantial room and the chef

kitchen, was open to the dining area, like a sort of like an like a fancy restaurant situations. He can watch the chefs after meal in in the door just a step separating the two yeah and the light on the fire alarm was like flashing. You jumped up but your hat over the light, because it was so distract his bright and then we're like, we should hang out more variable or details that go into to the whole poison, as for we're to serve us, but they couldn't get to ask. There's a firewall between us to go out through the fire skater indicted, while going all the way around were able to get our food. I didn't really noticed her care, but I think the folks from Cnet who organise no like super upset about it. Senator booker seem pretty. Ill about the whole situation excuse rachel. Ever there is food. Food is great. You know if you're a guest and you imagine a lot of people there. professional guess they get a lot of events. Your job is to be chill and like not make a scene if you're the

host in that situation, you're losing your yeah? I would look like have an item without four days a week. the fancy dinner like. I have a large felt normal to me, but they were really stressed out about it anyway. So that was one of the first times where, like seriously hung out we have been damning ever since, and I've been wanting to come on the show for a couple of reasons, while I'm just interested in what you're doing too- and I want to talk about that do whatever is happening right now with platforms. It just seems out of control and I think you're, obviously one the smartest thinkers at youtube as a platform, but think about all the other platforms to use. I want to talk to you about that stuff because I think whatever is happening with facebook right now is common for youtube. Next, I really want to kind of get your thoughts on that. But, let's I wanna start with you. please so that was a year ago. We are celebrating beam. Tell me all about him like what what's that story

I mean the whole story, abbreviated and jump inferred for details, but you I started that company. It was an idea, and it was original idea was still ass. My dear basically was ever he's gonna, we weren't google, glass or something like in the future, and imagine if you could just tap you're you're temple and capture what you're seeing shared the world. and the idea was conceived before snapchat launched stories really Sorry about that idea, and I raised money and then pardon would not hack it and then launched as a tech company in Google glass than died and then snapshot, really came up in it. It sort of cap shave shifting in changing in growing in You know I had a really successful launch but like most apps, do sort of levelled off and then snap check out really awesome way. Better than us- and I think we struggled in that state

yeah, but it you know in parallel with that life cycle of the software development company, that was beam, was my youtube channel and the launch of my daily show on my youtube channel, which was very much self doubt being detected. Many, and I think it was a confluence of you- know the the technical prowess demonstrated by the team more so than what the product accomplish itself. combined with what I didn't new media space fear the blog that being an attractive prospect to a couple of companies. In turner. Cnn was most attracted and put forth. I think the most interesting offer for matt and myself, and that is what led to the acquisition in november of two thousand and sixteen. What did you want it to be sooner cause? I heard a couple of different versions from you and some other folks there that it went in a couple of different ways. What did you

I currently want it to be. Well, I think what I wanted it to be in what they wanted to be. I didn't exactly look the same and it unfortunately took a long time to really understand that. But what I wanted it to be was I was excited about technology and that's why I started beam and media and youtube. Those are things that I've always understood and I loved. but technology was a a new frontier for me, so with cnn and them expressing what their desires were in in the tech space. You know they have an app and they have some interesting tech, but they don't have anything that I would describe as an outside of the realm of what you'd expect from a news. Media company like mercy idea. So I saw an opportunity for us to make some really forward thinking software products that was going to be when you beam is just your own company. It was called the dear child. I was hearing surely ups and then, when you went to cnn, it was like we're going to take in all this input and make a daily show, and then he made a bunch of like kind of standalone youtube videos with some interesting topics.

was that the final decision yeah I mean well, that's what I was going with a diatribe there surf as drifting, but the idea what what excited me was to develop forward thinking, apps, leveraging all the amazing resources that seen in hand and then to have a media component of it as well. A media component that leverage the information that the technology enabled and then disseminate Latvia, new media channel so youtube, and so for media, and things like that. So that's a very, at high level sort of wishy washy elevator pitch for a company. But to me it felt like an enough and then from there- and I think this is where your confusion is coming from. I think the world's confusion with what the hell we were doing came from from there. That was enough of the foundation for me as a tech entrepreneurs, as somebody who really sort of free wheeled my way through new media to build a company are like years of tiny foundation of an idea

go in what works do more than what doesn't work move on from immediately, and I think where I struggled is that kind of entrepreneurial thinking that kind of, like innovators, thinking just doesn't really mesh necessarily well with a larger entity like a turner yeah, and that was where kind of a lot of the struggles came from, as things were winding down early this year. Matt, and I look back and we're like this- is literally a case study for the innovator's dilemma. Really. This is what we were confronting here. He said so classically class. Our audience knows the and or something or say it out loud. That's when company has an existing product line that I think the classic example is like I b m mainframes and then a cheaper product comes along, that's disrupt, disrupts it and they can invest in the cheaper product and compete in that market. because they have to protect their larger market, so you're saying cnn was they have to protect cable? So they couldn't come at you because you would destroy them.

Listing. Does I think it's a very that's a very liberal interpretation either, but I think it had to do with the kind of nimble thinking that enables start ups to operate and disrupt isn't necessarily the kind of nimble thinking that accompany as large as as an old school media company can can do Does that make sense yeah? I know I'm being a little bit evasive here and I'm trying to speak carefully because cnn was a fantastic partner and that was vocal in owning the failures in the shortcomings of beam, is not a product of see an end, but a part of my you know my own shortcomings, you every heartfelt video when you, when you want to do

yeah and that's what I believe that like know CNN was an incredible partner and they wanted us to do what we thought we needed to do to succeed. And, unfortunately, I you know the first thing we did was hire a bunch of people. In retrospect, huge mistake, like top heaviness, is not something that is conducive to a startup environment, bootstrapping where you have to hustle, and you force yourself to go beyond your comfort zone and you force yourself to assume, responsibilities that go beyond your specific set of responsibilities, and that is where real, like innovative spirit, comes from soothing. You got too big too fast, since I've seen him yeah, and I think that you know that getting too big too fast goes back to again. That sort of innovators dilemma an analogy which is that the way a big coming that works is, let's make sure we have the staff and the resources to scale the way we want to scale, and that is an embryonic and have something scale short of raw

it in the main problem right- and I think that's exactly the the the stress point that I'm trying to articulate there is no malice there. There was nothing that I would fault cnn, for they did what they believe was really right, and I think that they were wondering in that capacity and we were trying to do what we knew, how to do, which was the best you know best through it, and ultimately, those two that can Prince of those two ideologies were in conflict, not in concert in that was a really challenging environment format, nighter tolerated, and can you what was the day that you decided to want to dance? Can you say like gujarati, we got like I'm done, you send email, you sent a text and it was not my decision. It was not my decision and- and you know I I think, towards the end, A couple of months that I really exploring in presenting the scene and merely add ways forward that we saw would yield success

and seen it was incredible in that capacity as well, but they had a number of ideas in the process was a process of mutual exploration, meaning that, like you know the heads the scene and that we worked with incredible, really really smart thinkers. They pay and tat s. What opportunities would complement them back with other opportunities, and there is a lot of goings on their dead. We're excited about some, we weren't excited about,

But ultimately, you know, ultimately, a company of that size and accompany with that kind of balance. Sheets looks at things in ways that is is is not the way an entrepreneur would look at things, and you know when I was building beam with that it was like survival and success at all costs. Pivot shift rev the fuck it takes to make this company a success, but when you've got an entity as large as that, that's not necessarily the way they think, and I think then, that the end of the day, ultimately, they saw being more financially responsible to absorb. You know the assets that we had accrued over the course of a year of operating independently absorbed them into the company itself, absolve itself of the expenses that were keeping us external and let Matt and I go and and and

You know, Matt knight really were empathetic to that position and it was a you know. It was a sort of a collective. We arrived at that place collectively, yeah. So here's my question so that's ways but facebook announces like patriot and clen right. They want to attract creators. That platform. Does that interest? You that's. What I feel like youtube seems like you, can't get away from so your question was: it is facebooks new modernization, opportunity, exciting for creator, The short answer is yes, I think that as a creator, I wish there is a better word that influencer, because that's just such a dirty disgusting word but generically an influencer someone who peddles their influence in exchange for goods and services as someone who makes a living on social media there's all

is a desire to find new outlets for monetizing the content that you create, and I think if facebook is coming up with inventive ways yet sure that's interesting. That's that's a very pragmatic or practical answer. I think a more romantic or more emotional answer is just that. What's cool right now, where the eyeballs right now, what's socially and culturally relevant right now and yesterday, tweeted ninja who's a huge gamer, huge streamer on twitch, I tweeted interview with cnbc- and I said, if youtube's not scared of twitch, yet they should be now and you've been doing stuff on twitter. Recently yeah I mean I think twitch is a really interesting platform, but there is a lot of people that came back to me, who were were not creators on either platform and they're like youtube, is no bigger than twitch by a multiple of X. Youtube has nothing to worry about youtube. Is

for streaming youtube is not for gaming. Twitch is only totally reasonable responses that I that practically they're an emotionally they're all correct, except when you put the x factor of emotion, you put the x factor of culture, you put the x factor of cool in there and all of a sudden it becomes a very real existential threat, not to youtube as it a viable search engine for video. That is, the global. under for searching for video, but the community than the community of creators and their audience, which is a huge, extremely exciting, extremely valuable piece of property in the media. Space out argued. The most valuable piece of property in the media is therefore marrable. Youtube is vulnerable and if twitch is seen as the new cool guy cook, hidden town, which, like ninja, did an amazing job and inserted sandy see a painting it asset when their talk, let them

innovation opportunities in the platform in twitch, prime, and all these things it sounds so much more exciting, then five second period, You wake to skip and in return you get fifty percent of the tenth of a pen your whatever it is on youtube. That sounds exciting and if there are interesting people,

like ninja and the other. The other people that are really dominating twitch is a platform combined with the mass frustration that's taking place with the creator community on youtube. That's what I see as an existential threat. I don't think youtube can go out of business this year and I don't think twitch is going to become eclipse youtube anytime soon, but I do think in the months and the years tides shift and when they shift like snapchat seemed like this. Impenetrable invulnerable monster when it came to being socially relevant and cool and instagram is, is, is mopping the floor with them when it comes to social relevance right now, so I've seen a lot of like vine stars to instagram. When you think about where you're going to be, is your home youtube and you're like looking for something else, or are you trying to be distributed everywhere or how do you see that playing out and I've always aspired to be platform agnostic? And I I've always said I am only loyal to my

it's. I have no loyalty to a platform, I love youtube, but if my audience is not on youtube, I'm going to go to wherever my audience is, and this is why, no matter how interesting the monetization prospects aren't on facebook, the majority of my audience right now is not there. So, even if they had really compelling ways to pay me if my audiences in their own care, Conversely, if there are places that are not making any money at all, but my audiences they're all go there, how do not set up? I mean uremic beauty

yeah- and I think it's very challenging- but I think that how I balance that I was the main reason why youtube is such a priority. For me, it's where the majority of my audience is so what you see me doing on facebook? What you see me doing on twitch what you see me doing on on instagram and places like that, it's experimental to see like how does the audience respond to stuff here versus what you would see me doing, and you have seen me doing on a platform like youtube, which is a much more committed, consistent and respect for both the audience, the content and the platform yeah. So annoying on. I ask you about you very famously: have a deal with samsung. I always think about that when we do our videos cause, that's a line that we, as journalists and reviewers, can't cross like samsung. Can't pay me to do anything they they offer. We we say no, like all the time apple, can't pay me to do anything. Everyone believes apple pays us everything. It's just the reality. Is there such families, surrounding the situation, but you know that's extra align. We don't cry

If you live on the other side of that fence, do you ever feel pressure from your various brand deals to do something or say something? Do you think of yourself as a journalist when you were at cnn? That was the question. I always wanted to ask you the most like. Are you doing journalism here? While you have this brand deal, but now you don't so? Where do where? Do you see yourself in that spectrum? I think it's tough and I think it's that that challenge is exasperated by my own fuck ups of path it's like I've. I have worked with samsung and not been cleared and the audience on it before, which is just stupid, and no I mean it and and looking back at it like I, I recognize the stupidity there in the tough thing is, and this is an excuse. This is merely me trying to share my thought process, but I I've always sort of maintained and objectivity have always been super transparent about the fact that, no matter what contract I might have with a samsung or something that I still care

An iphone of lisbon. Frontier of the fact that, like mystery, was got him he's got eternity with: what's dies and algae, it's not even a sense. like this lg phone jack, I'm just pointing it out yeah the s. Nine is super super sexy. By the way I just don't have one on my service writer, so I've I've screwed up in the past, and I should have been much much more transparent in the past with it. But again it's like the way, I think is it's like. No one's really gonna buy my favor no that in my heart- but I expect my audience not that's not fair, that's totally like such as europeans,

figure yeah and that's a I'm, an asshole for even thinking that, and I think that that's something I've learned is, as my audience has grown is like you know. We were talking about earlier, a mutual friend of ours who works in the tech space. Who right now is like posting for t mobile and it's not a big deal for him. You know, he's got twenty thousand followers and it's not. The consequences are small, and I think that when I look at the times, I've screwed up a grievously with not being super transparent about my brand partnerships. It's just been because of failure to really acknowledge the repercussions of that. But to answer your question, I think, as long as that, transparency is there and you're over

doubt it. I think it's ok. I think I am unique in that capacity cause. I love doing tech reviews and I've never once been paid by samsung or anybody else to say something favorable about their device, and this is again. These are distinctions. I expect my audience understand and that expectation is completely unrealistic, but it's like every brand partnership. Verizon samsung has never been about promoting a device yeah. I mean go back and look at every single video. We did a video for christmas and it was about you know and turning a show us a shopping mall into a playground for for kids. is your video this last summer that I got really really beat up on social media for brochures about me and my best friend, like goofing off in france and before they did a video where I flew on a drone and like we shot that uncanny cameras. I think there was a samsung phone in that video, so and like samsung. His is a sponsor enables these big ambitious projects, but then I'll do it

view of one of their phones and, like how's, my audience possibly supposed to understand a distinction there and the onus is on me. The onus is on the creator and I think that I think that the crater needs of a really good job of being really clear with that, and I have not done good job yeah, it's in fairness. I will say I don't the reason that we never do. That is because I don't know how to solve that problem. Sure, right, like I think, it's more important for us to say just have always have that answer at the ready. They can't do that. We don't allow them to do that. It's like always in my back pocket. We always say it, but I look at the future of creators on these platforms and I don't know how you grow a business without doing that stuff. But quite honestly- and I think that's a huge problem, especially as these platforms hoover up more and more of the ad dollars. They hoover up more and more of the attention you either got lucky and you started the virgin twenty eleven before they existed, and you have enough

sale or you have to play. If you want to start something new, you have to play in that game and there there has to be a middle ground, and I I honestly I don't know what the answer is and I'm happy on my side. I think the people on youtube. I love a lot of tech youtubers. I love your channel. You have to make different decisions to run that kind of business, and I look at it and it seems really hard it's it. It's tricky and look at this is a really simple thing that I'm looking pushing ahead and you know when I was with cnn for last year. I wasn't really looking at or according any brand brand deals. But now again I gotta, I gotta pay the bills and I have to focus on my business. So I I am looking for brand deals and companies that I think I can align with and what was really interesting to me as I did a brand deal, I don't even if they paid me, she gave me tickets to go to both the superbowl and then go to to see the floyd mayweather fight at the end of last summer, and it was with sikh

it's and I was super over. I was like this is a sponsored video by seat geek that qc and my audience didn't mind. They didn't object and I think like in again. In retrospect this is such a twenty. You know, rich hindsight is twenty twenty. This is such an obvious distinction, but I think the audience respects that you have to pay the bills yeah. I don't hate the verge cause. I see the yacht ford ads. That are the. Sixty percent of your home page, I understand, cause your bills to pay and I think my audience and youtube's audience at large, like they don't mind that you have to do brand deals and I don't mind and undoing. Seek the ox. There's no conflict there what's challenging is what my closest friends huge youtube, her and all of us, videos or about beautiful cinematography in cameras and he's fully sponsored by cannon. So how does the audience knoweth cannon really is the bastard is being paid to set? That's where the conflict comes

so, looking ahead, it's it's it's being much, much more clear and transparent in what brands I'm working with and which grants don't present complex here, I'm I am not accompany nets, sells discounted tickets to events. So when I talk about seek, he can thank them for sponsoring my channel. There's no conflict. There's there's there's nothing, so I do think there are ways to navigate this minefield, but it's it is tricky. I think that's where the patriot type models come in the kickstarter trip. Type models come in we're now you're just taking money from an audience. right in the end you don't have to like third were also may or may not influence. This is interesting because I I'm twitch have just started playing with, and I absolutely love twitch. What an incredible platform in twitches monitors tools on their life

the way that you are able to make money off of twitches is wildly different from the way you make money on youtube, even though you're essentially disseminating the same kind of content and monetising the same funny content, and it feels so much more organic. So much more fair. So much more honest in the on the opportunities. There are myriad they're, not just sort of a single payer method which is adsense, but the question then is like: why doesn't youtube just copy twitch? I don't think they ever could really. I don't. I think it slowly over time they could introduced ad monetization products. That may be look like it, but the trouble is you go to youtube and you expect to see it for free you. act, everything to be a bot, because that's how it's always been so the minute on youtube, you're asking for money and you're a bad guy. This isn't how youtube works and I think,

I sort of collective understanding that is really challenging. You can't innovate, you can't innovate once the audience has a built in understanding of what it looks like, especially when it comes to money. It's why a you know a lot of youtubers on a lot of youtube creators that use patron get a lot of shit for using patriot. It's under If you use patron as youtuber, you will be like you will be given a hard time by the audience. You'll be picked on for saying things like. Why are you asking your audience to pay you money for your channel? This isn't how this works. It's a big topic of conversation on youtube. I don't agree with it, but elizabeth topic of conversation and then you go over on twitch with things like a tip jar, and subscribers and prime subscriptions, it is, is the same exact, exact, a method of of of giving someone money yeah and on twitch, it's it's the norm. So, let's and you're starting a new series

well what's your next thing yeah? So it kicking it off like kind of the first week of April, and it is something I'm much much much more excited about than I have been. Probably since I started be the guy like the butterflies in my stomach, I haven't felt since I was raising capital for my tech company. but the short of it is. You know I'm going all in on content creation, because after years of building tack and everything else, I realized. That's the thing that I just find most satisfying is is actually making things it's what I love doing and and the approach this time around

in the way that I'm scaling it turning it into a business, is that I now know the sort of the value and the opportunities that come along with having a successful series online and having that level of influence. Having you know what transpired six months into my blog, where I was doing you know a million and a half use a day in the opportunities that are coming at me, that I was just leaving everything on the table cause by focuses on the creative, so with some understanding of what that looks, like I'm now, building infrastructure around myself in a business businesses around myself to absorb, to mitigate and and to you know, to to make sure we're exploring every opportunity that presents itself have because of you know, because of this new show that I'm I'm hoping so it's a show will find an audience. I meet a youtube series: sorts of youtube series on your channel on my channel that you're building multiple businesses around it preemptively and that's something that I think,

is certainly new for me, but I don't know this is gonna sound, crazy to say, and your audience is going to give me hell for saying this. I spent half an hour on the phone last night with Jake Paul getting advice. Do you know whether you like his concert, latino jake somebody, I've known for years and is is doing things from a business perspective, but this is such a new thing and that's. Why call Jake this is such a new thing to really figure out and understand what the value of having a successful youtube series is, and how do you take advantage of all that value?

It's got multiple lines of business right, he runs sure. Nothing I'm doing is is is modeled after it looks like what he's doing, but the point is, he does have those things there's no objectively stating he does have those things and- and I want to be in a position where I'm able to really really make sure that I'm not leaving opportunity on the floor, because I am focused on making my videos instead, let's build an infrastructure. Let's have the right people and places had the right physical space in place. That's had everything around me. They need to have around me so when my creative does find its audience, that orients excited by it and the opportunities it that beset that I am in a position to really not miss out on them so that the most sort of her ambiguous way, I can way hinder glower, andrea gotta, want take I want to take the wind out of the sails. I'm really sorry about allowing Ojo back. It won't be another year yet, never start the genes now carried out in less than a year. What

I've taken of an hour of your time. Thank you. So much I'm excited for your next thing. I made a really big gesture of bringing by the studio, and I thought you'd make a fuss out of it to make me seem like a good guy in the pocket. You mentioned it to another brandy or here. Here's an attack, He brought us smarter for what twelve bottles of hot sauce and a beautiful bag are great. Are they for sale? You can plug the hot. I don't need to plug it. I told you, I'm not getting paid for the hot sauce company gave me free juice and he put a face on it. It looks delicious it's spicy If it's I'm into it, I love a good hot sauce. Everybody loves it good I'll, make you this I'll use it tonight. I'll tell you plug by reading, maybe combined stores, and that's how I don't make me by heart cells. I don't make me money. I just I just feel it was a very nice treasury. They are shown our road one of revenue, directors, unicycle surrounding office, that the verge offices have a unicycle. We it's really

I I describe are are the verge culture is a really high performing montessori. It's like a surprisingly productive, my three year old's in montessori- and I concur. That is exactly what the vibe is just a bunch of smart people, doing whatever they want, and sometimes it's good looks like. Oh, my god, like I'm, happy That's that you, we talked a lot about scaling up a business. It's surprising to me that were as big as we are inside of a company in his gun way, bigger and its.

Well, you have to have a you have to have a long enough rope, a long enough leash to really find your voice in media to succeed today, and I think that's why the bigger companies that are slower moving are struggling against smaller, more nimble. Companies is because it's a very, very hard, principled thing to do when you've been doing things the same way for twenty or thirty years yeah, and we see that we're now a bigger media company, but there are bigger media companies that want to come work with us and a lot of those conversations we just sort of let them taper off, because it is at the verge of the big thing that feel small, and I want it to feel small for us. I honestly can't, but thank you not talk about us at the end, but thank you so much for showing up. Thank you for the hot sauce great to be here for the unicycle venture that Thanks man, I appreciate it. This episode of our brought you by simply safe symbols, It is ready for anything at cern added to homes, cured product strummed, excited power, simplicity is ready, intruder cuts or phone line, simple safe, is ready

say the intruder: destroys your keypad or siren simply safe. We'll get you to help. You need it's overkill. Maybe you don't need be ready for every worst case scenario, but that's what makes simplisafe home security system so great. It is always ready. simply saves simply safe could cost an arm and a leg, but it doesn't. Instead, they only charge you what spare twenty four seven professional gary monitoring is only fourteen. Ninety nine, a month contracts, no hidden feeds. Just go to their website and check it out. It's simplisafe, simply safe dot com, slash verge that simply safe dot com, slash verge, protect your home and family today. How this spell simply s, I m p: l, I s a f e dot com and I want to clarify It- has no hidden feeds

while the artists are so there's no extent of social dimension into simplistic yeah, Paul yeah every week, buddy! Oh, do you do a thing already time for that yeah it's called every week could do a segment called swag for me swag for you Two, I don't understand the punctuation of that it sounds like a question mark and then an ellipsis. Why is there a question mark comma? I need all the time that the whole thing you can just you know, there's a semi colon which is like a colon but a comma just the same. This idea, but for a question. embark with us. Is this your product of go? There's no rules against me adding useful,

punctuation and english laid out of a long. Con movie hurt you join court consortia Some work with a calm I'll give maxie everybody about that policy, really unique meetings. We might gentlemen I've come to present you with method. Who is this young scamp? You started in the male role, but berries fan league will give you swag for hyping its poorly selling phones, so blackberry, ass a fan Basically, there trying to start a street team. the crowd sourced grass, St team but this was a really good time. to remind every one of my greatest failure as a gadget journalists when I hyped the blackberry storm yeah for engage in two thousand. I wrote the our efforts

hands on of the black rare storm. I thought a clicking king of the whole screen. If you don't remember the blacklist storm, it was a touch screen phone, but the whole screen clicked yet, and I thought it was, I thought pretty good is not sure press sure press and I was into it, and nobody has so. I feel we can assure or a mug from the blackberry family lane literally a decade later for a further hype. Well, if you are on the blackberry street team, please let us now at. I would just like to meet you. I like the idea of starting a street team, when your user base is exclusively government. Employees receive your devices on contract. I see the sellers area, we work, we work, work in the financial district at lie. First hand sandwich. Sometimes I see a finance

she'll person typing on a blackberry or they're handing out hats, no got it all right. Thank you, Paul yeah, Mr Newton. Yes, every week, every week. Facebook do something insane That is true case even running a lot about face forest. Lately, You have an entire newsletter about social needs. By forms. Democracy called the interface interface of ordinary strive to erode apiece this week. and yet line that shrilly resonate with me, which is facebook, is racking of crises faster than company can, like mine them out of them and then obviously this week, Zuckerberg was on CNN and he's apologizing for cambridge and let it go. Video about the human rights situation, people watch, but just walkest through it. What the hell is going.

yeah. It's such a weird scandal, as I said in my video, because the basic details were known two years ago, which is that this political scene Gee data mining firm named cambridge analytical got a hold of up to fifty million user profiles on facebook because they were working with this a researcher named alexander cocaine, who created a personality, quiz app and gotten all these people to download it, and at the time, if you took, if you use nap like that- and you gave facebook permission to access, your information. It could also access your friends information, so people windup went up inadvertently, giving away all of this data and in cuba.

genetic I turned around and during the twenty sixteen election used it to do what they call psycho graphic profiling, and the idea is somewhat controversial and not perfectly understood, but the gist is that by understanding what you like on facebook and what you do on facebook and advertiser might be able to understand your personality so as to better target advertising at you, and are these nets out is maybe just maybe. This gave cambridge analytical an unfair advantage over the Hillary Clinton campaign, who didn't have to steal data. Some shady researcher at the university of cambridge, but the thing is that all It was known two years ago, with the exception of the scope of it,

What happened last friday was that the new york times in the guardian published this blockbuster investigation. That said hey the scope of this was actually way bigger than we thought faced. We could actually never even acknowledge that this happened officially two years ago, but when the times in the guardian should have this time, they said. Okay, yes, that's true and we're going to investigate, and at that point it was sort of all hands on deck and when we ve sort of in dealing with the following sense, but the point I've tried to make yesterday is that the reason that I think this blew up is that trust in facebook has never been lower, precisely because it seem like every week or every month. Now there is some new crisis or some new scandal that it feels like you, can't rapid arms around yeah it in to be clear. The timeline of this latest story They also just blew it right. so the guardian times. Those reporters said that faced with immediate reaction story was threatened. Sue. Those papers, which is not great, that's, leaves the claim

then they try to anywhere on the story by putting out blog posts, being to suspending cambridge analytical and then there What four days of five days of, whereas is mark Zuckerberg, he didn't say anything and yesterday was like this. Like yeah now media, but so we can get into the substance of what he says faced with having to do, but that is I like well managed pr strategy, at least as far as I can tell it's not and it's surprising for them, because they think their pr team is pretty good, they're, pretty sensitive, they're, responsive and they're good at at managing this kind of stuff. I've certainly had run ins with them over the years, but by and large I don't think that's a dumb team of people, but something happened on this story where it seemed like absolutely every single thing they did backfired the current meme among facebook.

Asked the cambridge analytical to delete this data went right and this goes to the heart of ice. Some people were so mad about what happened. It's that, when facebook learned that there was a problem, they went to the people who had as essentially stole out a maybe that's too strong a word but who sort of illicitly gonna hold of this data, and this it hey you're, not allowed to have that. You need to delete that and please fill out this forms. You deleted it, and so they did that. But then they didn't follow up afterwards, and the allegations this form legally binding cassettes, aware that they keep characterize. Zuckerberg presented as them legally certifying it. But it is not clear to me that what they signed was some sort of blake affidavit or length was truly legally binding, ran up, and that was Twenty fifteen that huh

it's been later, my understanding is that they wound up not going back to them, asking them to delete it until two thousand and sixteen ok cause. Yet it seems to me like facebook who just said well. Thank you newspaper people for for finding out that we've been lied to. We feel, like we've been fooled Obviously this is a betrayal of trust to our customers, but we got snuck or two and we're gonna do way better on our forests and you know they actually have said a couple of times now that their grateful for the work that the journals have done on this story. The reason a day, maybe brenda to sue or at least kind of such a pretty strongly worded note to the guardian was that guardian, insisted on calling this a data breach, and some companies believe that the words data breach trigger

this mandatory response from companies, and so they hate it when you quality data breach when their systems were actually penetrated right, facebook argues all these. Gave away their data willingly now it was misused after the fact, when the moment they gave it away willingly, so this isn't a breach. That's the facebook argument and the guardians basis said a screw that, like fifty million people lost their data, that's a breach. So that's that's the heart of the argument and that's why facebook sent legal now. to grab about it in the middle of this along the same lines, their chief security officer is, is outstayed us put out a whole tweet storm at? Why wasn't? It bridge, and I believe it has to be deleted- that tweets form and then the times reported that he was leaving a company because he was fighting about what secure face. Wish me, which is just like another thing, like it's another branching files fighting on or he's trying to keep facebook guns cure? no he's trying to be trying to secure it before he has this like sterling reputation.

So he was at yahoo, is fighting with marissa Meyer about having a recent everyone's passwords where got hacked and yahoo executives didn't want to do that because it'd being inconvenience right. So he has. This reputation is like an idealistic fighter for school and he wanted at least according to the times report wanted to be more a front with what was happening in russia in the platform and was getting push back. In some cases, outrageous outright he's gonna be there for couple team. One hundred people like to and unease that? Yes, that's what the I'm supported, reportedly he's going to be staying on through august, and he says that he is working on the kinds of things that you and I would probably hope that he will be working on which is sort of threats that haven't manifested. Yet. How else could facebook be misused in the mid term elections? So that's what he says he's working on its pretty hard to deter from the outside. What his day today is like, but certainly

it was a black eye for the company because, as you said, Amelia he did have such a good reputation and because faced under such enormous pressure to make sure that it is not influenced by bad actor. Or or foreign states during this election right leg out stainless as somebody who you would want to have on your team. If you are a user of facebook, hoping that the platform is not misused, as I think I want to talk about those are worse off, but real, quick. That seems to me that the heart of it. I I have always worried that we can't get any traction on like facebook news or face for privacy stories or privacy stories in general, And then you know, just in the midst of this, like everyone sort of did the service journalism of how delete your facebook account and we did the we did a piece somewhere mean. How do you say without while giving a minimum amount of your data, these past exploded our site. How to do

how to use facebook, while giving a minimum amount of your data did way better than how to delete facebook. It suddenly seemed like there's this huge consciousness of the fact that facebook takes your data and they can do things with it like give it to third party developers with a terms of service agreement that I mean you, don't have to pay attention to cause. One thousand happen the case or you know that shift is as strongly as I am. I think so. I think that trust in facebook has never been lower, because it has this overlapping set of scandals and crises that its dealing with and its having trouble fully containing any of them, and so the net effect of that is, if you're, just kind of a person on the internet.

Every few days you see another story about how facebook is being misused or another problem that face because caused or something that facebook can't get a handle on and see your trust in it declines over time, and so when a big story comes along and can have captivate the world, I do thing all the sun there's this instinct understand you know what, if I want to delete my may face but profile. How can I do That or let's say, don't want to delete it, but like can I just like get rid of everything I've ever liked or what? What can I do to protect myself better to me, that seems like a very natural response, so looking at Zuckerberg, yes, he finally like emerged from shell, and he talked he thought kara record. You talk to the times he incurred. Erika care, whose current a return to the time. Such a wire need tough seen in those that right, that's what he did for it, but he did one interview. I hate. you'd for interviews wherein he gave the almost almost identical answers,

the places where those like different interviews diverged from each other was actually the most fascinating parts of it. So he had to like Casey did a really a job and his summation of this. He like he call on all the parts of the things that were different from each other like where he diverge, where he got got off message inserted like talking. Only really feels was the most interesting part to me here is your average daily disclosure. My wife works for oculus, which has brought a facebook, but like that's where, like he gets into like the chicken dust like that was the most the most out of want to get to Eric casey as you as for interviews in his response to the questions and is man about what faceless walkest europe. Facebook is going to do and to tell us how you can read all that. Yeah. So there was the kind of a spectrum of actions that you could anticipate facebook taken in response to this, like from conservative

too crazy aggressive, and I would say that they fell, I'm kind of the more conservative end of that spectrum. So too big things that they're doing one. If you have any app connected your facebook profile and you dont use that up for three months, facebook will cut off that apps access to your data, and this is really burton, because it's very common, if you download a new app to log in once with facebook, and then you decide, you hate the app and you delete it and then six years later, that developers still theoretically gathering information about you and and doing who knows what with it. So that's the first big thing and I think, probably the best up there taking And the second thing that they're doing is a big, clean up action. So again, before two thousand fourteen developers could get access to information about your friends when you logged into their absence.

In the facebook's log in, and so there are thousands of apps that apparently had access to this huge amount of information. Facebook is going back to them and saying hey we're going to audit you. Now you have to submit to an audit. You need to show us what you're doing with our data. If you misused it and if you say no we're going to kick you off the platform, so that's going to be they're big effort to come back and say you know what and by the way this is gonna be another round of tough headlines for them. I think, but they're going to come forward with a bunch of other acts that we're doing things that were as shady or shady and then we're gonna have another moment of reckoning around that yeah, so that when you say that conservative I read them. Entire statement, and I just thought to myself, Why are you doing that already like right? What is that? there's something at facebook that just prevents them from thinking about this stuff. Before it's a scandal to me? That's like the biggest problem. Yeah I mean it's the it is a persistent and they think valid critique of silicon valley, which is that it is run.

I, which, on one hand, is the only reason that silicon valley functions to begin with, but on other hand, it means it's full of people who do not spend enough time. Thinking about things like the negative consequences. Yeah. So when I write, I read this daily newsletter about social media democracy and I think of it as a journal of unintended consequences, because people just never see around those corners, and this was a huge and important corner. They didn't see around well to me it's an I dunno. The verge as a website has weird legacy corners that, like without really important, were big deal and then It's not as big a deal and they're they're, still sort of hanging out somewhere in the corners of the website, and they pop up every now and then like. Oh, oh yeah. That still exists it's kind of broken. Actually, it's super broken well, whatever we moved on, we thought it was important turned out not to be when we did something. that broken. Thinkin hang out there. You know, you know it is a think. Broken thing. That's hang out there by the way. It is the

old diverge, app from like twenty eleven that is dead. No might murphy the attacker for her courts front that access to shit look at facebook date a lot really. It's got a thing. I was that we did not in any way What's the difference, I thought the differ. Who is going to be our said? It does have the personal information to billions of users and facebook should does, and so maybe they should like not that same, like forget about it attitude toward that they actually need to beat like hyper vigilant about all of this stuff, so there but like they change course or they, you know sunset a product. Somebody goes back and it's like okay. What's what are the consequences of this? What personal data could still be out there? I may agree they I think it's hard to have that mentality of coming through your past and fixing all your mistakes, but the

learn aspect of like will everybody's doing it, because when, whenever I hear these price two things like I just assume that everything that I've ever done on the internet is known by anybody who wants to know, yet I so yeah It is a good question in and I think, sort of what you're getting at is. Why does everybody care this time until the obvious that we haven't really underlined is the reason that a lot of people care about this is the suggestion that, because our facebook data caught, from us. It helped donald trump get elected, there's a lot of people who wish that he hadn't been elected right so often in price, these scandals. The reason they don't really resonate is because the consequences seem very abstract this. the case where they seem very concrete our science team. Angela Chan wrote a great piece point about the fact that camera analytica is gonna bullshit like what Clearly we able to do this. Data doesn't really hold up to like Portugal,

concept that they have so much data about people that they can manipulate their actions somehow I think that concept has a basis in reality, rightly I know a lot about you. I can probably craft and more persuasive message. But the reality is that cambridge analytica in particular, who knows I'm right in there? I think, there's a quote: that's like they're, a great marketing company. I I guess they're not good at what they do but listen up. I don't want to come across who cares if there's a data breach a more think the way I think of it is that every ok, let's say I've liked seven movies anywhere on the internet. I kind of all medically assume that any other entity in the world that wants to figure out what I like knows. I know

fine, I don't have the internet. I never think it is for a lot of people, but in theory the other is- and I think that people forget about this is face. What gives you this thing, which may be an illusion that you can limit what is seen to just your friends and you're, not just there in the world naked before the web You are in your safe little facebook house, with just your facebook. Friends devil he perceived. That is an illusion, so that's it why don't you in theirs add tracking networks? There's there's like The european union has a huge privacy are called the general data protection packages, gdp art like that's a lot, a lot of action in this matter, the right to be forgotten. They neither different. They interact to his for a variety of reasons but like If you collect data about, if you're a service rather than your opinion right- and you collect data about me- theoretically have the right to force you to forget it right. But you have a speech. Ret like theirs

It's a lot in case you to me when I was watching this. You know my side, the thing that, like from me into action like immediately read about it, was here maybe we should be regulated and he he brought up in. At any rate, this up, I believe, with it, wired as well the idiot, when you see an ad on facebook, you should know where it came from and why it's their right and there's like some regulation in the united states to to push forward called the honest ads act. A man he took this weird swerving turn in the leg. How you can't really regulate well cause. You don't know what ai is do Maybe I was smart or regulate itself and then next thompson, wired, astronaut, hate speech. I like regulating that on the platform and he said well, my understanding of food regulation. Is it there's a certain amount of dust that gets into the chicken and we want Keep that amount! Woe but we understand that to feed so many people you're still have to deal with it. And that's how I think about hate speech in that

to me is like off the rails, Insanity because I don't think that's not even, think of chicken process How do you think about chicken process as little as possible? How I think that's like having the FDA is I got up those dust numbers like right, like I, that they, they soup arguing that gathers out other taller. U s horse no amount of poison in everything that we, you sure, unbreakable rat parts per million. But so if you like, except that, then you accept that government agencies gonna set a number of acceptability healthy for the population like an excellent he hates per month and any ex aden right. The second that is there regularly- ought your chicken processing plant to make sure that you do? What are you guys think about? The difference here is like we accept that the government can regulate chickens but chickens, arts speech

right. I don't think that there is an exceptional amount of hate speech and I realize like in the free speech debate that actually places me into a camp. That makes a specific kind of argument. but I think the answer for these platforms is no amount of hate speech on their platform is acceptable, and then you have the frightened, then we're going to have this philosophical argument what constitutes but like I. I think that there is definitely some stuff that should just not here right and how you manage moderated- and I just look at Zuckerberg's answers answer and what I see as somebody who is yet to contend. The enormous amount of responsibility that that they have well there's really amazing quote, which will be a mite newsletter that is going out tonight. He said it s you care, switcher what he said, because it was also in response to a question about hate speech and how he thought about all of that and

what he said was things like where's, the line on hate speech I mean who chose me to be the person that did that. I guess I have two because we're here now but I'd rather not so, So the answer to who chose me is mark Zuckerberg right like this a person who is ruthlessly pursued growth around the world. He has bought up or attempted, kill off all of his competitors and his work hard to maintain almost total individual control of the company. Right like his is board, is very weak, so it's execrable himself who is put himself in that position, and yet we sort of found out yesterday that he has not come to terms with how much responsibility that he has yet he also. There is another part where he was talking about. maybe about like a and like keno, preventing post before they go, can identify, identify hate speech and you like it's a really the intellectual exercise like for the most Fascinating intellectual questions ever take well also, it's not just academic, like also

so this is happening right now, It's about was the thing when I watched in particular when I watch the cnn interview, I to understand why he'd been hidden for four or five days because he doesn't seem ready for this moment right. He is it what you, want from Zuckerberg, and this woman is like forceful decision making. In the sense of what this is I think I'm going fix it and he said a lot of words. The indicate that, but I at least for me I did not see a presence that was grappling with the amount of personal responsible it had or that living soldiers. Why here's? Why, like facebook, thinks it's the victim here and end and in some ways they think they can actually make a very credible case right. Like date, they sort of this planet, on this platform on rules and if the person totally lies to them says he is just going to do. Some academic research creates, is very innocuous seeming app and then it turns out. He is giving it away to Donald trump's data operations, team right and so from facebook's perspective.

They have been scammed and- and this person is a fraudster in- and they want you punish him right, and so, when you're in that mindset of Lay hey who the hell is this, this guy We need to get our revenge and then the so the world is telling you hey. This is your fault. How are you gonna fix that? I think there was just a kind of breakdown that it took them, five days to work their way through and vigour. How are we going to swallow hard and say? Well, you know what maybe we should never have made that data available in the first place, and maybe we should have investigated these apps much more than we did like that, was an emotional journey, and I think there was still a lot of biting his tongue going on last night when you gave those interviews, if, if I was mark Zuckerberg when, when this popped up I'll, be like oh great, people are gonna blame us for donald trump getting elective again. This is what is happening, but at last, what did I mean? That's obviously I mean that's bullshit, like people voted for four donald trump yeah,

you don't like I just I don't know. Why does it very? I can say that happen. This there's like, I feel it is a big effort to assign a blame to shift the blame from the free will of people, to a large platform that was abused yeah, because so does it? I'm not gonna find a switch, and I'm a David roberts who are seraphs com has great tweet storm. it's like the frame that you should look at the world right now in is, We won in the world, everyone thought Hillary Clinton was going to win this election in a they. They all went too far too fast because they were all ready to attack her when she was going to be the the vehicle for everyone's outraged. the next four years rights of the republicans, whose hacker left wing of the went too far too fast everybody

they before she got elected, they started attacking her and then she didn't win. And then this unthinkable thing happened and I think where was an unthinkable to everybody. I predicted to my family like we're all talk Obviously some time yes did. They see like there was a bright. The structure of the item for one of the candidates was and make people vote as I get it, but I had a higher world was predicated on her winning. It is true, but when we covered neutrality, my number one in point, is when they recent hillary clinton- is gonna win their their arrest. friends are still going up bright like it They all made assumptions ever made. This assumption in this thing happened the most people did not assume would happen and that not made plans for an we're looking to explain this thing that seemed unthinkable and Earl and that the election was close.

Forget, like the three or four. Whatever number was the number of voters in the three states that, like turn electoral college When, when and when an election, is that close you could you can make the case that, in Number of tiny things are the thing that pushed it over and, of course it was an accumulation of all those tiny things, but every something new pops up like, oh god. Maybe that did it you couldn't you can like. It sounds I to say oh well, that's the thing because it was. Just small number of people across three states that its conceivable that any even even the bumbling inapt, the good at marketing it actually executing cambridge analytical you wanna be, could have been the thing that made. It happened right, the click no sir. It is that the more you're willing to believe anything tat I should have done was wisconsin, let's be just go home everybody, so I get it, but people voted, but, I think this thing that did outside of a margin did anything when in an hour,

the only thing in case it has been making this point and this one we did our survey last october of how people feel about facebook and the other big tech companies like we didn't run that server we hired an outside consultant to do it. Nasa represent a sample people. Just don't trust facebook there's don't think these compounding stories were her face, which has a bad actor like now. You can point to a big bad, but that that is built on a foundation of little mistakes and other fuck ups and for years, people writing imposed on facebook. I do not authorize you to use my data liking that makes this a contract right. Like people, that's been there the whole time. Here's a now one of the problems with fake news and viral spread of fake news, especially on platforms like facebook is people form little bubbles. And they were willing to believe things that they wanted to because it supported their processing beliefs. They had a confirmation by us and curl

Right now, everyone is freaking out on facebook, because I dont like facebook, because as bad sorry, my facebook aligns with their confirmation by us, huh stood on your own put their casey. What happens next? so they're gonna be a couple of things. There's an employee q and a Tomorrow is my understanding that Zuckerberg will be speaking not so we sort of may hear more from that. There is going to. a series of investigations of these acts. It had access to more data which facebook will presumably tell us more about later facebook, also going to be notifying the fifty million people who had their information improperly shared and that's kind of the next tuesday. there, but remember this is not facebooks or the problem, they also have the news feed integrity problem where you dont know. If you can trust what you see there, and then you have a broader cultural rights, mean over how

spinning our time on social media. Is it good for us personally? Is it good for democracy? So long, so things are kind of swirling around that are going too far the data privacy scandal, I think, and if somebody wanted to receive an email digestive this news every day where might they find such a thing need? I'm so glad. You asked me to go you my twitter profile at casey newton. There is a link there to a daily newsletter about social networks and democracy. Are you saying lincoln by say goodbye to perfect. Alright, I think that's all we have for this week. Casey. Thank you for explaining this to us. It is so wild and complicated. It's an amazing story. I have. I have no love in my heart for face with whom we asked the girl. every other company and recover like they make some products that are against basically concern.

Yeah. Everybody loves and ceramic forgets that faced with makes it, which is like a huge competitive strength in assessing the things you sit down and ran instigator any. there's other stuff to listen to. While you percent button season two is happening this we subsidies are taking surveys and public which right I I firmly believe taking selfies in public always acceptable any situation anytime. It is just a photo if you think it's acceptable, take a photo of that time and subtle. Take the photo yourself agreed. I tweeted that people are freaking out, then I listen to a caitlin actually do a much better job of telling that story than I do so. That's happening, Meghan fragmented. She wrote a great feature at telltale games this week that you should read if you are the sort of person who wants to build a product or company just how they, the culture just got out of control It's all part gary that long goods to learn vs on the youtubes, so watch that she's also got a podcast called timbers to ask kara swisher as podcast called recode decode peter kafka's podcast,

richard media ass, was her by the way recently had the mooch on her part. Yeah she's been on he's been our real run and that surely, though, was not his casey you were gonna, have a pocket how he got yeah. Well, you know it's very much forthcoming, although, as you might imagine this week's facebook park, lives has has been top of mind, but yes, that We are moving, and I think we have a lot to say about that very soon he's going to outside converged occasion in the past that you cannot currently subscribed to podcast, but all those other ones are there, for you cases. That'll give you five bucks. If you can guess the xml feet that's one hundred percent- true it hasn't been created yet so to guess it would absolutely be worth five dollars. You can find us on twitter, Paul's, future paul cases, cases newton,

it is back on. I am reckless. All these things are available to subscribe, to thank you to casey neistat for being on the show this week again, the full hour long rambling chat somewhere else in this field. If you want it, promo code.