This week. On average S, atty robertson and tom warrant joined the show to go over everything we learned from the first week of the epic vs apple trial. It is a lot this episodes ride. It's the virtuous here again, hey I'm ryan reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what bait wireless. Does they charge you a lot, we charge you a little so naturally, when they announced that we raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices. Do not hating you! That's right! We're cutting the price I meant unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It mint mobile dot com, slash switch new activation and upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply, cement, mobile dot com for fulton, support for the show comes from gold peak, real routine, there's a time a day about an hour before sunset.

where the rays phil warm and the breeze feels cool, but the half hour of golden palace is always gone too soon. It may rekindle that feeling with a bottle. Old peak made with high quality tea, leaves its smooth tastes. Transport should golden our at any our gold bt. It's got to be gold, the I'm looking for a chest, flagship podcast. The movie demolition, and which is all that I have thought about recently, if you watched the demolition man in the context like current anti trust law is a very good anyway. I'm the ally of your friend data around this here, I'm the shells through maybe the best, it's a running joke that movie that voice you heard was Addy robertson, hey, howdy, hey Tom Warren is here, hello have read too many confidential documents.

so adding a are here because they are covering the apple vs epic trial. I'm gonna tell you straight out. This whole episode is apple vs, epic, and what is that his trial. We are and fridays in. If we want the trial scheduled for three weeks, I will say it seems the next two weeks the forecast are going. You be this trial as well. I want to start at the start with co, It is always, though, just one update website website of the vaccine. They actually wants to day early access to launch it on may one day or should they early It is almost exactly the same as the previous vaccine located. They changed the colors and they added a spanish language option that did took them six weeks. The government rains unmatched I think, websites yeah, but they did it today or you can go get it if you haven't gotten vaccinated. Please look at this website. You can walk in all kinds of places. Not just go get it done. I'm tired of this hence my children, I get it.

I'm tired of it. What sort of this the trial is a month and making addy just lay the foundation. Why? Why is israel happening? And what does it look like see? Approximately the trial is happening because fortnight, which is one of the most popular games in the world, added a new payment system for its v boxes and gain currency that bypassed the apple tax or the thirty percent charge that apple puts on digital inept purchases. apple said no. This breaks our rules. They kicked fortnight off the store. They made a big deal out of the fact that it was a sort of underhanded, surreptitious change in a hot fix, rather than something epic went through the formal review process for and then, epic sued, saying that ios is basically an ecosystem where the app market in it is a monopoly and it sued apple over anti trust violation, and so now that's where we are

company suing suing other company and antitrust violations is not doesn't happen. A lot how you think about it. We usually reasoning that the government may have facebook or something like that. Yet what specifically is epic asking for from the court here epochs asking for big things. The first thing is tied to the inner payment service in a fortnight in another apps and games with is that they want to say that that's a tone market and you should, if you're selling in purchases are subscriptions through the store. You should be able to it was your own alternative payment method, rather than going through apples own payment s decay. So that's the thing that would be a really big financial hit for apple, but not a massive existential definitional crisis. The second thing it is that is that they want you to be able to side load, alternative, apps or alternative app store is especially onto the iphone. Basically, the iphone a lot more like android. These matters

in part to epic, because epoch has the epoch game store and if they want to launch a mobile version of that on a west that something that sir, we would become possible if they prevail and that part of the lawsuit so those are two specific things, epic, as saying the court should order, let us use around payment system lot of sideload apps, including other app stores on cf yeah, essentially yeah. What do they have to prove to Is it just apples? Bad? Is it then only specifics, so we have to prove it really oversimplified level that aid, the iphone ecosystem is a thing that apple has a monopoly over as opposed to just like one product that it happens to put apps on and that it's causing some kind of consumer harm by monopolizing that market in an unfair way. It seems like a a high, a high lift but we'll get inside what what's happened this first. We too, that the trials also like pretty strange

in that is not there's no jury to bench. Trial, brain damage dodges, just sort of listing. Everything in deciding pops in ass question. Sometimes the ashes. It's it's strange, it's not what you would expect it feels like I put a very contentious meeting in some respects, cause it just like the judges asking questions, its so being streamed to the press, but then there are pirate streams, Mckenna Kelly, wrote: entire pisa, just discord, piracy of trial audio stream. It seems like that is somehow colored the trial itself right that its people in the very beginning. Let people he going on the stream yeah. It's also. Hopefully the trial in clearly their introducing things with the intent of getting them in front of a bunch of people, and the judge knows this, and the judge is also trying to make decisions based on whether, like the public is going to interpret a document correctly yeah. that to me like that element of it, it's hard to listen to it

not know that. That is the background of the generous minded shares liberalising to it? Well enough that they're supposed to she knows it documents are getting produced the internal emails, I suffer getting produced immediately disseminated and she's turned control that part of it while also serving is like the judge in a fact, finder in the entire that's a losing proposition, trying to moderate all of the news industrial complex on the internet and also run a trial at the same time. That seems like a lot, but she wants a sort of do is if she thinks that one side is trying to manipulate like the court of public opinion, she wants to try to limit that, like that there was this whole controversy yesterday, I guess I don't know it was an argument, not a kind of a controversy with two people where epochs lawyer could trying to introduce things to a stab, a kind of state of mind where apple knew that there were these problems with the app store, because developers kept emailing them complaining, it's full of scams and the judge is like. Well you

actually have evidence that is full of scams. You have somebody saying that in their like, yes, we're trying to establish the state of mind the vigilant. No, the public doesn't know that They have no idea that have store, isn't actually just full of scams, so they have like introduced some of that in there. But it's a part of the trial I said I just have waited foundation of mean you and tom of listening to it. Liz loophole, is actually in the court of auditors. Rotating pool. Reporters I'm very excited to read, loses descriptions of what is actually the courtroom, as we have been able to see it, there's just poor boy. It's like still surely binders every seventh fifty binders, fifty like binders, like three ring, bind five zero. I dont know if their free ring, I can't see them, I'm just going from what people say, Anderson I was in there is yet both companies have done representatives. Phil schiller is apples rubber. So you just sitting there in his mask just like fee

meaning at this testimony old, it's incredible. Okay, so that's I just want to set the stage for people give a sense of what this trial is, how its operating, What sort with sweeney he was the first witness up on a stand. This is epic side one of the things we went into trial coverage as we have learned from other trials. We ve covered the broad, and since they read our coverage doesn't always realize, like one side goes and makes it's case, and the other side goes so epic is calling all of it's witnesses right now making it's case their first witness was tim sweeney, whose ceo sweeney is a character. I dunno that he did great at he had. How did you think that that way? it's a little hard for me to tell, because TIM Sweeney is a pretty saw, spoken guy and be as far as I can tell like. I don't know his microphone was covered in tone. Layers of spider web, like

unintelligible on the street and on the public and private stream. So that probably didn't help us case outside court. Insight court are clearly came from. to make a bunch of really hetty arguments about what fortnight is and why fortnight is cool beyond that, I think that it seemed a little bit less certain that the judge was buying all of those arguments He also like there are just a whole lot of things that he wasn't going to ever get into like appstore security, which has been the focus of like the last yeah. So Sweeney is there to make the decision and we're talking about she's distinctions between general if computers and game consuls between perhaps a native apps between game, in the metaverse right huh. He would he's trying to create frameworks where the iphone is one kind of thing. and consoles are another kind of thing, wherefore It is not a video game, but this broader echo

engine that everyone is calling a metaphor short now, which we could talk about for the full episodes. If you wanted to wear Web apps are limited and what they can do, and that means that innovation is limited because apple controls both platform on the iphone. Actually, Did he succeed in that? We, let's start with like what is a game. What is like, sweeneys vision of what a game is that he present that well to judge system We basically defined. What is a game in so if it's the part a fortnight where you kill each other? game. Apparently you gotta concerts, that's not a game. There were some more. And distinctions where, like a game, as challenges. It has scores its side. He sort of winning the kind of conflated games with competitive games with the church actually called out huh overall, just calls this like this phenomenon that transcends gaming and makes a big deal out of the fact that you can watch other media in fortnite, which is, I think, his way of saying that part's, not a game. Because its other art

right answer, and this this is where we're gonna talk about netflix and who down the line. But the argument is, you can sign up for netflix and watch a bunch of stuff and netflix. No one thinks netflix is a game even though banned or snatch exists, and that also in that in the courtroom definitely thinks netflix is again game. They snatch I I'm just saying like that's what I'm getting at is like. In the end, these things are all actually converging in various ways and apples distinctions for it's appstore rules are running up against. The fact that there is conversions of in that way? It's also that one of the things that didn't get that much attention is the fact that fortnight there like trying to turn it into a creation tool. That's where the metaphor comes in

cheers his vision is theirs world, where a bunch of the most of the money that you make a fortnight is stuff that you transferred to another person whose making a thing and if that happens, fortnight's kind of made its own internet and apple. Once thirty percent of that, an epic thinks that super unfair, can we just sit back just for a half a second and explain why the game distinction matter is because, if apple takes a thirty percent cut in all digital stuff, that happens, why does it matter if it's a game or video service or a mega verse or whatever. To this specific case I mean this kind of one of them Weird things can is like ITALY little bit unclear how much is just for like people from epic trying to talk up fortnight. Being this really amazing thing that people benefit from having and how much It is like their arguing that fortnight is way more than a game. It's way bigger than a game it shouldn't just be treated like games like

there also knew, I should probably try to explain this. They ve been trying to say that apples trying to say this just something that should be limited. Complete I too, like this case, applies to games and there, Trying to make this argument that, whatever remedy happens, it should be applied to like any upon the store, because fortnight is like a bunch of other apps, and it's not just like part of the game in category Yeah, it's a series of like conditional statements right like the Larry less way of describing the laws and its code. Unlike. in this case. The arguments are just like nested conditional statements, so you ve got a fortnight. Is a game than apples rule that games have to pay thirty percent it's like stands because they can make that real elsewhere is not a game. Then apple needs to make a rule that covers all in app purchases and control this whole part of the economy. If netflix is a game, it falls into that same category so like there are

but these definitions because they want to escape whatever narrow categories. It seems fair for apple to impose rules and so of apples, We ve just got this. We operate this part of the iphone like the xbox and you accepting that deal in inside of the games industry, the thirty percent cut, is competitive and fair. Because look at where you pay that same rate epoch well we're, not a game where the few sure of all economic activity in the metaphors. What what're you gonna do at that enable us to come up with some definition encompasses that, or they could say in this is, I think, we're I the most verge cast. Part of this whole thing is they're saying, while the xbox is a game console and the iphone as a general purpose, computer then here are the differences between those things and apple is like parsing, the differences ever more. Finally, between of those things and ultimately, the judge is gonna make some

determination, which might be very simple, which is the as a contract any broke it like. The end of the day like that is a thing that happened at the iphone as a bunch of rules that I from developer agreement has in terms of use agreement, an epoch, dislike knowingly broke it. If you really want mine bend stuff they just earlier today have been having an argument about whether roadblocks as a game and apples position is the roblox is knocking I was not one to me is really really interesting, but it actually like anything, it cut to the heart of the big philosophical question for me are you not robots because there are literally developers a game is four blocks. Thirteen there's robots developer kits you can just run around, makes often relax insults, people, those are like games, You got him very. Might I get this now the names Little games apple says rankings. The reason that they have had to parse roadblocks into a different category is because, if you say, robots is a platform

in which there are other experiences you can pay for that merriment up a games. How. earth using shot from ex cloud right. How on earth do turns out from minecraft like the earth. I think it Let this fundamentally speaks to like watching the apples biggest fear about light, protecting the obstacle. Is it they don't someone to make a virtual apsidal that you can get to within an app that thing gets around their for absent and it sounds like appstore within that lets. That's the kind of their fear, which is not something they will say old man, but you can see further policies and the way they are enforced and that that is very much check has. Let me just mention an ex clout. I can sign up to a shadow cloud gaming service, which is kind of similar, but the distinction between ex cloud, which is of sea Michael's, become export streaming to the browser. to address the distinction, but that shudder service? An ex cloud is about shadows service works? The moat

into windows pc, you will you were my way into like a pc to supposedly own somewhere. It's is in a several home. That's a distinction that than the x is different because it presents its you will I and everything about it as if it's like a store or napster, and on that front, that usability dashing app is ultimately fearful of someone or get a bunch of different app springing up in the app store? That would take the focus away from the so someone coming and could create their own still within the appstore. Can I don't like you separate that, from the context of apple his publicly, they committed to services revenue as its growth engine and a huge chunk that as the app store and a huge further chunk of that is in internet purchases in games like. There is some significant portion of apples revenue that is candy crush whales,

and we will never know myself, it demands that the document is produced. I hope they do to me. we never thing. I think we all like to now, but like one of the. This is like a much broader subject, but one of the weird things about the aps we're having a review process in its feeling, like a court, Is it the entity that court is deeply aware of apples revenue like the united states, supreme court does not issue quarterly earnings. ray it's, not beholden. To like an economic model. The chief justice, the united states supreme court, doesn't get fired if the review doesn't go up three quarters and around, although that would be a major issue, but like phil schiller runs the app store and, like it end of the day he's an apple executive who who's is tied up into apples, economic performance and there's like something really deeply troubling about that. I like fall too deeply down. There

but all this is a lot of what we're taking the apple makes the rules for the store yeah? Those rules are and we'll talk about us, and I bet those rules are clearly like directed towards protecting apple's revenue or, in some cases, increasing apple's revenue and the game streaming. Apps are like at the heart of this actually can we take just take a small pause I do want to get into whether or not we should be having governments with profit motives. That sounds like the next three hours. life that I would love to spend that I just want to point out that, since we're talking about till schiller and apple executives, profit motive actually seeing these emails and the documents is like? Oh yeah they're there, their business people like the veneer of perfect apple keynote. You know world that you usually get out of them. just like completely shattered by a lot of this. If you really start looking at the documents- and it's a lot like, oh wow, terrible but its actual, like oh, don't use it he's a business person they their trees, integrate into their decisions. They are. Apples executives are not bad. It is right,

They run the risk of ethical company the growing they have more cash in the bank than most countries right like that. Very, very good at operating that this step is a This scenario I e, said about those emails and solve the veneer there's an email. I think it's like an exact cuban is is around about ten years ago. Maybe no even that longer based its schiller he's basic ii. arguments mike's of steam, a bunch of apple people, were arguing about heavy office on I s essential. If you have a means of myself ultimately his email. The last line is like it's our. is our revenue. You, like well. That kind of that kind of reedy underlines like the way that apple sees it's app store, and I think, even though that's quite some time ago, when they were arguing gang office on there with the five cent stuff. I think that still stands today witness. The way that he was trying to defend, as you know, is how stole so. We should be making money off of it and you you guys, should be happy. You should be

either we made this like here and you're gonna pay for it like This came up. I dont think there's gonna, be an executive from the match group called by epic soon. This is all happening in a context of congressional action senator Amy klobuchar. I was just on decoder. She said she was watching this trial very closely, but sometimes she just had a hearing with executive or match group an epoch. Another companies needs exception recounted a phone conversational chapel said you owe us everything and instead we are all afraid of apple. Rights are all these things are happening in parallel. I think epic in particular, is very aware that They lose this trial. All this other stuff is happening right and really they're. Just producing a mountain of evidence. Apple behaves. They can feed into all the other stuff right, yeah I've, I think nets I think, like I don't know if they go into his thinking, wigan loose or of a but that they ve got like a giant task to pay

the points to the need to prove and just listen to this. This week I didn't think that doing particular well. But what do you think they're doing is that their they're trying to get these documents the china get evidence out there, the other regulators, Ruby, international ones or even at home, in the. U s will look at Ok, we haven't seen this evidence before I, just want to get some of those arguments out there into the public eye. He can. He can very much tell that cause some of the some of the arguments they've been having, even just between the attorneys about what documents should be that to them. We shouldn t just tell If this is a document, finding exercise that they're spending a lot of money on and it didn't, it just feels like that, sir- will you time and there is the testimony of lorry right use, an xbox vice president, before you too, that I wanted to collect a game. Shrimp Four minute there were ex cloud executives And in video executives called to the stand to talk

how their game streaming services work? How did it go and what were the? What were? The main point of contention here's the first one was from nvidia and they basically did like the quizzed. Him primarily is as little about latency. That was epic, the epic game side that they, I think they were trying to prove basically apple is foursome down the street to go to the web browser. Why does that like? What's that matter for a start, and if it, is like work like on a make it into a native up I'm. So this is kind of you speak to those policies of like white ways, apple blocking called gaming- are not nor even blocking it, but just making it more differ. for these companies doing away and speak. It speaks a came back. To that point I made earlier is that these companies, if you want to present it in a soul, store like interface for cloud games, you just click and go apple. Wants them to package these game, up individually dislikes, taint netflix put we,

tv, shows all your movie separately on the stool and then you can have enough apt. That kind of let shilling counts in them is slightly the task and so much licensing involved that no companies provide able to do that, so they they boldness in? in video engineer, and one that the points that I think he made the I don't know if the judge ready pick up on the sleep at night, I thought it was interesting. Is that the argument between the native and where that is that they will see forced to use safari at will webcam with rendering engine for safari. They foresees that and maybe that's not the best. This out, there like chromium, might be better if they could be bed the code is that used to light pull that video streaming from the game that but more optimal, create less like, say, fixed alone, that So that was come at the dvd thing off. india has a relationship of epic games. They brought their eventual fortnight too I find free the web browser, so there was a bit of back and forth about that and then of suitable.

much as well and marks of souci they. So in this case they they ve, taught about its cloud and said that he spent three to four months of came back and forth of apple. And how apple was initially like, oh yeah, we might in. I let you go through the or the bull netflix of style right into the store? They were like now monotony, and then they blew up lorry right from exports, he's like their exports, vp of business She was talking about it's called as well how they spent three to four months to try and get started on the store, and, ultimately, those back and forth with apple, and it didn't happen. One thing that did happen those that Michael sent, an email to apple, say: hey wise, netflix loud to do than to snatch and wisest shit gaming. Company allowed to do streaming games my windows pc, but went on To do it's clout and an apple was like, let's get rid of shadow, so they push the button and its employees temporarily.

We also learned by the way in this trial that apple refers to that is you, tb, which stands under the bus why one developer has thrown another developer under the bus may or press or a user any just somebody pointed out a price, one with an app and they deleted it? It was up until I think twenty. Sixteen there was you to be made under the bus. When we say these companies are just run by people like that, it's fifty, with its area of life? They just came up with the phrase or like under the bus. That's what we call it. It's the official app store review, link and I've been very good at very nice data. This is your moment that we just talked about about. Well, that's a little bit, so here's the thing apple does not bear you doing whatever you want in the browser, and so you could it. You could do a game shooting stars what they effectively ban games, trimming services up until very very recently, because bubble safari just did have the capability that you really needed in order to pull off a game, shaming service over the browser and so

suppose come up about latency. Unlike what you know, they didn't mention progressive, whereas with its effectually value, what they are talking about and what's really touched on in the one point today fully very briefly do, let's just like the rest of the internet. That is perfectly came up very briefly that everyone forgot about it said it's a website that pretends to be more like an app yeah. That's that's, basically right pretend web yeah. That's what sets at its base, but there are other things that a web app could do, and so tom and I wrote this peace, it's like look web apps will know be as good as native apps. I've got many many people yelling at me about that that it's possible for one to be as good as a native app if everybody would just implement this one standard, which is probably true- and it's a thing that I've heard ten years so upset that psycho, so far. I just can't do a bunch of stuff that would like really really make web apps much more powerful and its

at like a like web standards level, but also just like a platform level. The install flow for getting a web app off of safari onto your homescreen is bad and they they perform weirdly in some ways, and so the the question is: do you be mad at apple for nursing, web apps in webkit? And the answer is like yeah a little bit, but at the end of the day, apple has engineering priorities, just like everybody else, and they're going to they're going to put their cycles on improving privacy more than they are an adding in a web gl improvements or whatever. So I'm not as angry about that, as as I think I could be ooh, it's it's more, it's more! Why don't? They just allow a competing browser on the platform a competing web rendering engine because they, like then chrome, just roll in and be like. You want to run game, shaming service on the iphone, just use, use the chrome rendering engine being bengal, but we know why

this is what this is. What I am getting. This is why I am less charitable than you I know why safari his nerve support for web apps, because apple apples, business priority, is to make the app store yeah, right and apples under centres, privacy, insecure and apple laws that no doubt that that is ideal it cleaved part of apples dna. Yet I know it is I'm not doubtful that fill the questioning, is also focused on really specific things that they could have allowed, but don't like access to a arkit and push notifications, yep yeah. This is what I mean. That's that false limitation. No, like the privacy and security thing. What does apple not want you to do apple does not want arbitrary. To run on the ice correct, for, like a million reasons, yeah, I think actually chiefly among them is security

I have a billion installed ios devices that are a rich target right that I'm certain the current president in the united states has an iphone the last one definitely did right like these are rich targets, apples motivated to protect, and one great way to do. It is appstore review, so they are consistently saying we dont want this other way. To run arbitrary code on the on the atom, which is a web browser yep, if you let, the chrome team put the chrome with the chromium engine on the iphone. The knife inherited all the chrome security problems and you cannot possibly review and change them the way they eat hemisphere, that's a legitimate. and although you you could you could build a better sandbox, I'm also. I want to insert one tiny sidebar here that I'm pretty sure the app store rules. Don't let you just put a wrapper around a web app and stick it in the app store. So not only are they making

that's bad on the iphone. They are live. It's that the distribution problem. When you think I've, when you think app, you go to the app store, and so, if you want to make a website, you actually have to do a bit more to include apples. Pears as the kazan codes and apt stuff to make it more native in order to be allowed in the app store so that, unlike every level, it's just like pushed back against web apps. That is either like legitimate about privacy or it's about their protecting their business model or its both. What it's some hybrid about anything I just keep going back to is because they don't allow third party browsers- and I do think, there's a good reason to but whatever they do on a mac. Unimak is mostly fine, because they don't allow third party browsers effectively. They control both platforms on the right. They set a ceiling on the limit of web apps and they absolute set the ceiling on the business model in the app store.

So, if you want to escape the business model, limitations the app store and know the web, you now have to accept performance and capability limitations of safari. that is a lot of control for apple, to hold an interest obvious that they are playing one against the other in this is. It seems upon the subject of game streaming trying to use the web as the escape hatch from the control of the business model? and running into what are the odds? some well known limitations, mobiles far right also is also consumer behaviour, which is reduced in that lorry right. They expose vp light touch, storms that you can have these web apps and you can force people down that route, but, like apple, has taught people feel is to go to the app store to get up like people don't go to the web. To play. Games is what The lawyer, I said it's like, and then they had a big back and forth for apples attorney was like sharing glaring reviews of eggs cloud

still in beta and force now, also there and its lake year. But that's beside the point is that if it is this wasn't about business model the list, those peter be eyes in the absence of them. Let people discover them from there and you aren't, you have to go into the web. Go to euro tat, the share button home screen and then Sometimes it doesn't have already work pick some weak, hickey, she's, happen and release. You know that it's just it's not it's not the same, and one day my just decide: the cookies are not allowed on safari it all rightly here they just did that. There is a lot of dynamic between the web acts as an escape hatch. That rests with the five apple controls. Far in for some very obvious, legitimate reasons, and then some very deep dark business reasons limits its performance This, however, all runs into the next big definitional debate of the trial, which is a general purpose. Computer and again,

council lorry right is at the heart of this is in some ways apple. I should just asked for her testimony to be stricken Tom. What's going on here as we move on from like mac versus pc to windows versus pit of windows version, which is basically was happen. This is another big power that say of the apple once to position the fact that they have taken his philip saint cup, particularly games, especially because This is in she standard. like sony. Nintendo microsoft, they will take a thirty percent cut on digital game cells and then, on top of that, whatever spend within those games so lena But she's ready with by the revenue comes from man is essential to the business model, particularly of much sought sony for the harder side, because these guys subsidy is that hardware to then get the money back from this offers us. So that's it does. to think so. Basically, arguments between whither.

You can consider a pc that you put your desk lithuania's pc or mac. The same thing as a phone and the same thing as an experts were playstation consul. Now this very interesting the trial, because there was questions like what is and what is an export and what does it? Do you have to plug into war? Can you access you, internet banking, when you adopt as we ve xbox live? It's a crazy crush. It makes me want to do all of these ridiculously over into the doctor's office, and I go for my curvature an totally going to be my exports. We mean you turn on your xbox. power supply the lights in the ears office go womb, begin that, that's the fundamental thing that they were their real arguing about an adequacy from epic side. They want a position and microsoft as well. This be honest, like myself, the quiet like partner in here- and this is where are they

position. The iphone is the same as pc. So therefore it should be open. They should have most flaps those. Why should that will be taking it? absent come on everything is a general purpose computer. is this the thing a general purpose computer, because it has access to these acts and the experts We know we can't call that general purpose computer, because we have a business model that supports it and we need to take that car is basically the the the the sort of difference. The way when falls down where it gets, complicates, make those arguments on one side, and the other is that the expert souza has access and netflix to various apps. Where do you draw the line between what is something station me in your home and and something as always in your pocket and a general purpose? Computer? Unlike what spites be specialist, daddy. What are the arguments rightly been living kind of funny, but they ve been trying to make a bunch of arguments to distinguish these things. So yet there The distinction there's like general purpose versus special purpose, compete.

device. One of the arguments is there are billions of windows devices. They are it's like a more important market. It's a market. Where there is a bunch of they don't use the word emergent, but the idea is that there's like emergent uses that it's important, that you should be able to have this kind of open store, because it's a device that You can discover new ways to use it that, like the xbox everybody cannon knows what the xbox as for is the claim that they have this whole business model built around Well, it's for games, except for the time that they wanted to be like a whole media thing, but they don't mention that and for or a pc or for a phone you're always supposed to be adding new ways that it could be part of your life. I mean that's very spiritual. Ok, I mean there were also like weirdly. Not touching, then I am appalled has introduced this whole other distinction, which is whether or not something has a bunch of personal info on it that their argument for why the iphone should work like mca,

ass is that everybody carries their iphone with them all the time and keeps their life on it. There cleaners nobody leaves, and I a macbook on the train or something like that. It's not my experience of, but I'm not sure I'm paraphrasing This a little there lay curled meant something. There is a tiny part of me. That's like yup apples, right a tiny little guy. That's, like you know, the difference between one thing with a chip, and another thing with a chip is just like what the part, the company that makes it decides its allowed to do right when the iphone first came out. I got in a big argument with my very good friend and co, founder of phone, different dot com, makeover, boo- and I argue that the very first iphone was not a smartphone, because you could not install a program on it. Then later we, the maps- and he called he yelled at me- for engaging

no true scotsman fallacy- and we had a long debate about this- is very good yeah. I eventually gave up and like an okay, the iphone is a smartphone, but there's still a tiny part of me that is like. If apple decides, you can't do something on it. If apple decides it's not a computer. Okay, I don't actually think that. I think that the iphone should be considered a general purpose computer and we should be allowed to do more stuff with it, because we paid a lot of money for it. It can do all the things they just should be allowed to do it, but there is a tiny. Part of it. It's like you know we're, ok, the right tiny. Yet so I want to talk about that in the next session we ve, a lot about how apple perceives the iphone from its emails than I am. spend a lot of time on that just want to end this section, but by talking about microsoft for one second here cause Lauri Wright was asked: do you make a profit when you sell an xbox console and she's like no, and that has kicked off just a firestorm of nonsense added

I can see that yes, so there. This is again relevant because part of epics claim is that councils are different from smartphones, because apple cells at a profit and microsoft and sony and and oh, maybe it doesn't really specify this don't and therefore their nicer to developers, and so when lorry right was asked, why do you ever? Have you ever made a profit on selling an xbox? She said: no, followed up on this later and were like well what about later on when manufacturing costs drop, do you start selling them at a profit. Then, in the generation is like now, and then my microsoft started, making public statements, which Tom can explain his they basically wanted to remind everyone yeah. We, you know we do make money on experts yeah huge point of that in court. Your entire argument is yes, we don't make money on the hardware, but then

We sell all of these things and we have to take our thirty percent cut, because without that we wouldn't make any money, because again we don't sell these things at a profit and glory. What did touch on it briefly because they said well, if you're not making money on these things like. Why are you sending them sort of thing? and she was like you notice, an end to end experience, but a and and and say relies on software games and stuff, but like it, it is like costain like they. They sell these for a loss they make up in. In Where and in that puts is particularly sickens like minecraft, a huge first, so that revenue strain on its way. Then this is all part of ethics argument right. We know, The deal going in with microsoft in sounding that that's how their business works, they propose play microsoft, sony against each other, their emails to effect. There's tim sweet, telling sony have to enable cross play. Otherwise, you will their families apart? It's right in an egg? they negotiate on on the margins of those deals and they know

Ok, this is ecosystem are playing in, and this is business model, but there's all these competitors and we can kind of like play them against each other. They cannot do that with apple like apple's way or the highway. Basically, in that he's a big part of it, I'm interested in I hadn't personally known like this, so the intricacies of the sony deal that epoch has where like, if you play fortnight, a bunch on the play station? But you spend more money on like android or something that today we have to send sony money that one or reduced as a whole can of worms. I feel like that, that one is essentially like an teams he's amid that no other platform hold it. Does that something that's lit, like sony, knowing that, like fifty sixty percent of the fortnight revenue that the epic makes its comes from the playstation then, being like this also big revenue for us and we want to protect that say that if, if our

bans by using the playstation put predominantly, and then they gonna some time on, I find, but then they start spending more money on the life and then you need to protect. Revenue stream like if we can enable is close by thus, basically that what they ve done, that, but now The platform holders imposed that, as far as we can t, if we really really could spend Another thing before we finally break. I just want to say that, if the rule for the computer is that the company make money selling it than Google has never made a computer there they committed to it for more than two hours. Now I just want in because one we could fall down the rabbit hole of the metaverse verses. Actually, it totally to serbian surround say we're everything single thing monetize do is up ok deals which in multinational corporations you can see which is true, but

Laurie right saying that on stand at microsoft, coming back and saying no exports is profit led to this moment today, where, before the trial kick off today, apple father motion, and so we need to strike all of words. Testimony is not credible because she has not produced microsoft, piano for exports, proving that they sell the consoles at a loss. We don't know what she just said it we don't know without any documentation. None of this is credible, yeah, this atty to me, as part of like this, the larger chaos. around document production, that is played this entire trial. So far, we're like it seems like, A couple minutes they just yell at each other out what documents will be produced in we're watching the public box folder, literally washing pdf just appear and disappear Are we designated people to start downloading them folder? So when I grow up, I don't know if it's just treatment tat

like apple, an epoch did not higher cheap law firms yet, but this is the biggest invest law firms around like epochs offer. In particular, just won a gigantic antitrust cases. They were supposed to lose for american express at the supreme court like. This means a lot of money and lawyers, and I I can't figure out how to make sense of these Seemingly rocky mistakes were document production. This also all of the third party stuff. Where samsung had wanted to stuff to be sealed anybody whose basically dealing with apple and epoch and has some kind of deal like at one point. Like paradox, interactive the studio wanted to keep detail. Of their at the game store deal. I believe secret, so there's that whole whole can of worms too, and the sony documents through just talking about the cross based off sony, wanted to keep a secret and, as far as I know, they ve not been me published. So we have documents, the ah let partially would acted, but on in

in the public domain animal effectively, although they are wherever they are in the public domain, their numbers judge our doesn't she's not going to receive them. only a out of the bottle. I just don't want to we publish them again. I don't want the lawsuit like through voting no time like another public. Now we thought that they're, just not part of the record. I haven't seen rhythm appeared So I would like to end on this. I call it like. we're argument. All these definitions and he's executives are saying things and where the point where just think about this, apple is saying the testimony of microsoft. Xbox of vice president of business development is not credible. But that's their official motion like you should not believe this woman she runs xbox like that, is a crazy place. This trial has landed at because the stakes, the fight are so enormous. This is a good place to take a break and come back.

it's not quite what we have learned about apple, hey, I'm ryan, reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little. so naturally, when they announced that he raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you that's right, we're cutting the price I meant unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It mint mobile dot com, slash switch new activation and upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply cement, mobile dot com for full terms. between the kids being home and hosting everything in our house get used up in summer within stick art can save money by stocking up on all my favorite summer brands. I save time

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season, you'll hear legendary investors like charles hudson and Elizabeth yen invest over a million dollars in the start featured on our show, and let me be clear: none of this is staged. Each episode of the pitch features real entrepreneurs pitching real investors for real money. Then we go the extra mile to tell the true story of what happens after everyone shakes hands and walks out of the real listen to the pitch podcast, to learn from the smartest investors and founders of world season. and starts on Wednesday august. Twenty third follow the pitch for free wherever you listen, the pot casts we're back dearest. We weren't we took you were talking about apple, controlling the phone being a piece of the fact that the companies make the devices can call them computers, I'm not actually at peace with that, I'm just saying a part of me wants to be so I don't have to worry about it anymore. Yeah,

I just accept this so that I can move on, and the answer is no. He can't read one decade of the show has proven that we cannot do that, but we have learned a lot about how apple perceives the iphone. We ve learned a lot about how much it controls the iphone, and I didn't we like adding to sunday one of the big questions of this entire cases, like is appstore any good right as I do the things that apple sensitive yeah, which apple has again because they have where this whole trial, as an assault on the iphone in the alps door. End a lot anti trust standard involves. Is this hurting consumers? It's a big deal? So, let's start with that, I think that the first bombshell that we. Learn about as the emails came out so netflix his honest very popular app on the store for a long time, netflix I signed up in the app so you could subscribe to netflix in the ios. App apple will tickets. Thirty percent cut

fix it decides to a bee test, how badly its hurt by not allowing sunups and that's that. they're gonna be tested, everyone done it apple like freaks out, basically circulates an email on it. I guess it's a deck. It's like a list of things that can do to keep netflix on the store this list is. The list is nuts, but it's also to be clear. Like ultra clear, we don't know, I think that apple actually pitched any of this to netflix. We know that they are like in a deck internally saying here are some pie in the sky. Ideas of things are, we might consider doing to keep netflix using an app purchases at its like wild stuff. So here's list is labelled what we do We can continue coordinated featuring across iris apple tv. We could provide. form in state over the emperor had other people impressions conversion rates, installs, give them the power,

to determine what shows we feature we had bundling on apple tv, we hid were more benefits in the video partner programme. We should cut on marketing to drive customer acquisition, we could pay for their ads. We can give them for and to the actual commission committed to buy ads from ethics. So apathetic, a thirty percent cut the netflix his money from subscriptions and unjust, reallocate that money to buy ads for netflix napster which you will notice effectively, lowering the commission keeping all the money inside the apple ecosystem dedicated emails running only the netflix up. They could bundle netflix into apple service. They get here. the events at the store they could do today and apple. U s store events promoting their faces, ip, like anything, to keep netflix from doing in a bee test of turning off. I was on its which eventually Netflix did and does not appear to have her networks. I look at this and I say this is nuts.

This is where apples monkeying around with the business model of another company is totally fashion of its control of the app store. and they know that every time you push a button and that they should get caught in here List were netflix is saying we don't office. Thirty percent cut is valuable and apple was coming up with a laundry list of things. It can do to make that thirty per cent cut more valuable. If you abstracted away just one step back, what does that look like that? Looks like a negotiation right, it's what you would what we want to take some money every time somebody does a transaction with you, here's all the stuff. We can do to make it worth your. While what do you think in ethics and say yes or no eventually proudly this had now no other after gets, forget sal, that negotiation muster amazon, which serbia s into a lower rate, but to me. This is, do you want your honor reading system vendor to exercise

control of the applications such that it can so in messing around with the business models of the company that companies that run on the operating system, I this is where it gets really shaky for me out of a judge this way, but I looked at the sight of you now sounds like: oh, I'm really onto us I think, I'm also uncomfortable the, whilst most cease since being made like this, and you know this is business dealings that happen or across the world of various various happens. Apples public front is that we treat developers all the same which, in the same way on about we didn't do that daily. an anti white listing of private. Applies. Everyone's trade. The same but it's not like. I really wish that come up yes, so yesterday that almost came up when they were asking about, do you give special deals with think it was? It was either met sure or one of the other people who said like appstore review executive. It was like no, we do

Do a review policies treat everyone the same. We don't get special positions. It was worded like carefully enough that I think it did not cover the kind of things that was talking about. It was like we won't, kill people off for different reasons, but I really wish they had followed up in that kind of have to hang This brings us to the hulu emails who, was white listed to use a special set of AP eyes from the store where he could subscribe hulu in the ep and then the who up could unsubscribe you. For most other unattractive to go into apples, settings app or wherever they managed, but the who up could actually unsubscribe you so who when they watched their live tv service needed to unsubscribe people from apple billing, so can bring you over to hulu and eight basically built up on their website and thereafter like what you do it. This is tweeted out development in David print hard in september. Twenty eight in this journey

rates and email inside of apple. I another person's last name, but this email says Phil saw this and wants to know, what's going on, Canada fills lessening fills autism nonsense. That's often email chain inside of apple, between people that basically ends with. Did anybody go through who flows payment flows before they were this out?. which is just wild right like you're after if you've got access to hippy eyes are going to build stuff. At what point do you like wait? I need to go. Ask the o s venter. If this application flow is okay, I need to go. Ask the operating system vendor if they're going to stop us, I will tell you that I just signed up for hulu with live tv by two days my parents, I was trying to get them off with their or public servants and we had. It builds rabble into on to get that billing cancel and moved over to those who had had a call who Why go through all the steps?

So all this was removed. That to me, is like even more of control like this is hulu has the a p eyes and they're using it to support their services. They're weightless they've been given permission and apple, saying, wait hold on we're, not gonna. Let them turn off our billing, so they can charge more else. where infill once don't swam I've just uncomfortable with all this. I don't know it's like It's weird to think of the island. Is this mobbed right? That's what this feels like is every time they see money flowing through the phone in weird waste dump benefit them. There's an email chain, unlike the weight of appstore store review, is brought to bear so that that process is bent back towards apples flows. Now I hear this from a lot of listeners every time it an episode of interest law. I get these notes in my email inbox. This is why we pay apple to protect us right. I choose the iphone because I was

apple in this level of control. I trust them. I trust her taste like their products and they create products one ship is gonna blow up the like. I get it and hear all. I don't think we've gotten to the next part of the trial, which is like it is all but impossible to switch away from the iphone. So if you don't like it, apple's also trying to actually lock you in- and I think epic hasn't really made that case yet, but I suspect they're going to start saying yeah yesterday was all about like actually it's not protecting you and I'm hoping they get into this. Next, let's talk about the the not protecting you, so they asked a lot of questions of of apple's like have you measured the security of the app store? Have you measured if it's keeping people safe, prove it in apple connoisseur? We haven't done that they basically yeah they pretty much any claim that apple mean that because like well, do you have studies on that and there like. No, unfortunately, I feel like no maybe tommy think differently, I felt like didn't make a particularly

strong case, because so much of their case yesterday, for why the op store isn't safe is that they just went through a bunch of developer feedback and whenever anyone said something sucked they just breaded out without details which, like I don't know, if you ever gotten feed about anything. Someone will like it just meet with the job of not establishing. It was not cherry picking, especially because it is one where some was like. This thing is plagued with scams and then they read the line out above that and he's like. Even though I gave the app store a high rating, it does have a few pitfalls. It's just weird cause. I everything I read about is like okay, the app store does actually have tons of stamps like we feature to someone who just hunt scams that seems like they're, a bunch of great example they could have cited and it felt like they were really weak apples

pulls phase of sea privacy and security and that we have to protect, I think, of the children basic it s this will. The message is that we need to protect to, unlike copying, cope more unlike that that that's fair, like that's. Why I like the elephant us? Why look people are dead, as why develop trust the iphone, but we know secure. One hundred percent, we noted the app store review processes is not right, loosing fishing screaming about it and emails like we know this and sky maps are coming through a thinks. Sean did a great story. Piecing together summit, like a person on twitter, is literally finding scam apps that scamming substantial The amounts of money out of people on the app store like a regular basis like on his daily weekly basis, slaves, have some review issues there. We haven't, Let this massive like thing with the ice: where they had a major security event like a major wraps, go in there like lightning,

what we see on windows recently, where there's been he's crazy, and somewhere tax we haven't seen out new life, but I feel like it It's only a matter of time that perhaps happens of some something happens and that the waterfalls down a little bit, but these gaps, like the very start of that. You know like it's. It's these little things that creep in and apple's argument about. That sort of stuff is like yeah like we don't want to open up the stole because of the so so scarlet. We don't want others the stores on on the iphone, because this is the source of will happen. Like all these things will happen, we don't open up safari cause. You know yes, but like thing about this way, like I like like me, Many people, immigration, capitalist, stir, apples accountable, for that stuff getting through is totally muted. Yes, a view. You hear that scams are getting through on the app store and you're like. I don't trust this anymore pulled off

where, like what you can't point you're dollars somewhere else mere? Unless you switch platforms and then your friends, one taught you anymore cause you're bubbles in like that is a real dynamic at play here. We're just like the basic accountability mechanism of the market is blunted, like apple can screw up the app store a lot right. You can't you could let em majors came out, go through it could let a virus go through, and I I again. I deal is to clean, like they don't want that to happen, and they try hard not to let it happen and they believe they should. Let it happen they invest in making sure doesn't happen, but if it did, the actual repercussions for apple would not be felt right, because I wouldn't throw my iphone away in government handwritten by my, but like A lot of people are like well, there's nothing I can do but there's not another appstore. I trust more than that to me than reflex.

I dunno if the epic vs apple lawsuit, is going to get to that point. But that to me is like what's coming out here, a lot like we know apple uses the lever of the app store to achieve business outcomes in a way that is uncomfortable and at epic is trying really hard to show that the mechanism ashram doesn't even accomplished necessarily things apple, says. This is kind of like paul of epics argument and tim sweeney in general. Is that, like he's like essentially algerian shit, Did you trust apple with this, like this, this amount of power and for them to control the app store in this way light to read through. We trust all of that and he he he like backing. Nothing Twenty fifteen march so try to do similar things. The app store, ready to be honest and on the windows said they re they returned locked down windows to s versions, which would only work with their store apps. So very it's her eye model and an sweeney came out very against that

so it should be an open model and they come to listen to him to be honest and welcomed. on stage when they were opening up there. stole, changing their policies and stuff like there's that the tiny difference, if that is the windows, store apps when windows s mode was available were not good and it was maybe, if not tend to be a forcing function and like get good into the windows, s mode appstore, but yet no, it was bad. I, like that's one of the things here. Is the obscurity good will there's a lot a lot, a lotta really gaps in it and that's like that's one of the things at play here, yes, is ready, hard to argue against, because I you really believe, like this teams. Apple they're, trying to keep these things secure that china get there. in there, but in this push and with business process there were the rigging above. An insight into is like what level does that goodness of liking in the absence of healthy and consumer friendly inner, fails then kind of breakdown?

and because apple wants it to be a certain way and they want to control innocent way, and I think that's that that's kind of the argument says it's so hard to argue and we're seeing it with epic games that, I don't. I honestly don't feel like their argument is particularly strong. Yet because it is very hard to argue this case, one thing, I'm kind of surprised I haven't heard come up, is piracy because that's like Maybe the number one thing that or number two after limitations that keeps game developers on iowa us. Is that it's a lot harder to? I wrote an app and put it on there and, if you make, android version than somebody's going to crack and in giving you an a and it's odd that you, like. I haven't, heard anybody even gesture to it it's and yeah they also like developers flocked to? I was first, let me save time after time his reasons for that the two is better than the app store discoveries bab, they leave the market. Europe better, like

is plenty of reason like the consumers that enter they spend more money on your own, the app store than they do on android, like the there's plenty of reasons that this app store is good. as we see there are sunlight lurking reasons that some of it should be question now I will say at iran, it entered fragment taken. One thing: we learn from this trial. Tat went engine virgin ass topics, apple, I, a bunch of developers and developers, told apple that enrich fragmentation is not really a problem anymore, yes, but what s really interesting thing from the from the trial? They just target a handful of the most popular phones, in the day and age. The same two forestalled apple. That apple has so many phones that ilo s, fragmentation is also a problem, so they like arrived at the same conclusion. but you have too many screen sizes in ships and like worded same thing on android, as we do on ios, which do we just target the top of the market and let things fall where they may add. This all brings me to kind of the biggest question yep. This is a bunch of stuff. We talked about for literally years in the show

forever, there's only one person who matters that is a judge, judge yvonne Gonzales rogers. What does she think I'm gonna carry out this by saying that I dont want to seem confident and all because I think that it's really hard to tell what judges think when they asked questions like to just but that to be the baseline is that I am reading. Tea leaves but seem skeptical of a bunch of this kind of distinctions that epochas drawing like She, whenever she is jumped in its often to question epic trying to make or like microsoft, trying to make some kind of very clear binary between say our purpose in specific purpose. Devices she's like ok, won't, doesn't just have to be one thing like what, if this thing is, this is me, yeah like one category, so that she's here Fuzzy on questioning whether fortnight is actually some kind of net averse experience or

thing? That, basically, is a game, but you get this extra perker. You can go into a lobby and have can't like concerts. Also there is wonder, sort of otto side where she or not, but like tangential, side, where she's like well look, maybe actually it should be harder to buy few bucks, maybe the friction in enough purchases to retire audiences, kids and they shouldn't be able to make impulse buys. Does she like you're asking for, I feel like she has like a teenager who spent like five hundred dollars and the bucks? I do think she said as a parent. I have no idea what what kind of kit she has, but she she also jumped him in the discussion about like the xbox and been able to check banking on it and she's. Like you know, I could. I could do that. My what's wrong It has been examples really interesting when you write like we know, apple controls a huge chunk of the app experience and like is in the weeds these app developers like

there are emails and apple talking about whether you should be able to buy bitcoin in your banking app, which is in and out purchase of a digital get like they have to have a policy that sort that out and they are going to have to deal with that and figure out- definition in a set of conditional statements. That says, you can buy bitcoin and in the cash app, but you can't buy? the box and fortnight, and that means something to us and at that level, Well, it's like literal economic control is like deeply weird to me like that's. Where apple has landed itself, at I say it is the judge buying it like my bet is that the judges This case is done. It started because you brought your contract I don't really care like go home right, like that's kind of aid per posture maybe she's gonna get convinced by message. Switching costs, maybe she's gonna, get convinced that band

ashes a video game, maybe she's going to get apple, does anticompetitive stuff, but like that's where she sat overall. So far. In my opinion, At the same time, epic has escalated. This conversation way out of this trial. Rightly it is national news. International news, lawmakers the attention to the staff, there are hearings. It is empowered and sort of given other developers of confidence to say this stuff is happening to us, too that's my mentions. Yes, which we did it ben thompson thread from last june, where he's like all kinds of developers are telling me that apple strong, arming them into adding in app purchases. That's weird like I. I can't not put it in the context of what two weeks ago centre of global,

on the counter talking about her hearing in the app store in her book about antitrust and then epic, maybe they'll lose, but there they are doing what they can to change the public perception of apple and there's a part of it that it just to me at least, seems to be working regardless of what the judge thinks, as you said, like the sort of prototypical antitrust cases, something that, like the justice department, Then the f to see brings and that's definitely not off the table, but I think it will ultimately feed into whether the eu does clusters MR really know that he will they don't they're doing that, like They voted on the spot five music stuff, but they have also mentioned is a bunch of cases like its nearest. Not just so I feel at them. Waiting on this stuff as well, to like see what comes out of this and is alive, coming now- and there is one thing we know at the eu- loves doing those instead work

tuna, especially to american companies. Slug deal like browser, but that's an idea. We had it did it work. Who knows Look at how this whole thing started: it started with a giant media campaign where epic made a parity video of the original apple nineteen. Eighty four commercial- I'm sure they want to in this case, but I more sure that they want to change the perception of apple, because I think that, honestly how they started this whole thing for some reason. I find the email where they say they that has been surface during this, where they're like yeah. This will make us not look like the baddies, one of my favorite things from to help I should mention that this entire project of epic is called project liberty. like the veranda high horse here and it's whizzes Is she wrote a long peace this week, which is grey about why, epic is burning. All discussions, the epic games, nor does it make any money. This lawsuit might not work in its could duffy their spending a lot of

and she's a burning all that cash is worth its epic. If they are in control of the men, of course right. If this, like massive small world or epic, is in charge of things and gets to big business deals around it, that's a much bigger path and whenever this is costing them now, unlike yep epics on its high horse and people like fortnight, the metaphor says like an even more all controlling economic environment, and that's the thing they're looking at and so yep that you know it's the en su giants, fighting and we're just here asking what a computer is basically is mine, my takeaway from the trial. So far. The sense of epic epic makes a firm were able to use a metaphor. Lonville were met for facebook, real well disclosure. My wife works for us, a division of facebook. It completely failed yet, and then what did architects built? They built a view. What did facebook killed? They built argues the hour headset, which now runs the entire category of the art yeah Companies refuse to compete with it as well,

are reported this this morning, mark Zuckerberg gave an innovative cnet where he was like. I believe the future is the metaphors. Does he think a future that matters is tim, sweeneys, manuvers or mark Zuckerberg spent averse like at the end of the day, there is one of these overlords. Epic apple, amateur sport This is the answer to what a computer is. Who makes the most money when you push a button? That's it yet it seems depressed whatever. Whenever minister using opensource like web browser, someone exe this just came up in trial linux. Epic says it's particularly has a reputation difficult to deal with. No bread, no yeah. Alright, we gotta make it fun, honestly, the economic future for all of us as multiple competing phones, the verges making it fun. You heard it here, we have gone over is always just mention a few things,

The other huge news this week is at the facebook oversight board issued half a decision on whether or not it faced were constructive and trump as they have a decision, because I said the ban was correct, but a positive activist. To make an actual policy about that that they will then review in six months. I didn't entire epoch. that of with climate is a law professors d, We started the oversight board. That's why I'm on tuesday. By the way, I think that this is really the line between the oversight board in this whole app store review process. two of the biggest most important companies. America now have things that look like legal systems and courts. They are deeply in control of what you can and cannot do in the money you can and cannot make. That's that's. Someone should make a sci fi movie about that. Just put that out. There call me I got ideas another piece of very rich has seen. Is the new york attorney general finished investigation into all fake comments, a hit

he sees website turn a net neutrality com period get there. I'll, just like broadband industry, botz YAP lake, straight up. Eighteen million out of twenty two million words like big eight point, five million of those eighty in. within the industry. We knew it. I want to credit fight for the future and in gizmodo in particular, who like lead that entire charlotte, investigate and stuff, but the attorney general's investigation said it's true. That means raining, but it's very validating to know that our suspicions are correct and, lastly, if your rebels on the treadmill ads I dunno put it put it far away from you until the recall six holes in the truck comes to your house yeah cause Indeed, very dangerous and also palatine has an epa bug that may have experts. You sure, did. not a good day for exercising by the way who is upheld. On a computer. That's just andrew tablet about Well, we didn't have a moderate q and on content, and that makes it a can hear

they can be the ones to crush small children, that video was terrifying your surfing, if you ever know things to stir sunsets but it is just an android times, but that's all it is ok. That's it! That's very fast, tweeted us. I met reckless theaters at back on areas at the dexterity, is that timor in both of them are. Why shouldn't except for this hour week for the next year. So I think I wanna show inside what would happen and follow them lies at the trial. Today, in person is eminently potter. Lots of trial coverage coming is made all the next week. Already it's not gonna answer. I want to call out the next wednesday may twelfth we're having so you ve broadband we're here virtual events with centre at Marcie, the democratic massachusetts mckenna. Isn't me talking to him that broadband infrastructure in building a better internet dance? It very cool legacy next week, tectonic talking at facebook oversight,

for an underwater with me. That's it answered nothing, that's for chest soon, as we get a vaccine. a ride reynolds at mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless. Does they charge you a lot? We charge you a little so naturally when they announced that we raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you that's right. We're cutting the price, I meant unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month, give it a try. It mint mobile dot com, slash switch new activation and upfront payment for three month plan required taxes and fees. Extra additional restrictions apply, cement, mobile dot com for full terms