Hey, prime numbers. You can listen to the vanished ad free on amazon, music download the app today that this point, and been woven. This way without answers for so many years, almost probably to the point you have almost acceptance or just something I lost hopeless with in time things were were different time. Law enforcement wasn't as diligent with it as they are now. families, weren't, really come and forward either at the time sir, what they are now- and I learned just from other tips that I spoke to families approached me is being interested, then in this chain dollars potentially being their missing children

The answer is that I'm getting from them. They didn't reporting nothing think that the police they did and, in other cases, in the police in follow up with it, didn't go too far with the case. But then again it will bear a nineteen seventy six timeframe where there was much to go off it always legacies new leads the media attention really reached out and get the phones ringing in speed- the families no sympathy for all of them going through the same situation. One enclosure there what point to been missing for years in there, just hoping that this is their daughter and several conversations, I mean I want to help all of you and I hope that you're able to come up with something I hope if are going to find someone with dna. If it's not what with this one opening within the system, it's going to work and I'll outpouring support

to a lot of whatever kind words, families, how much I appreciate the work we are doing and thanks for not giving up in it, it's all along on october, second, nineteen, seventy six, a farmer and his young granddaughter riding a tractor through the fields of seneca alone, away the farmers He thought to be a deer lying in a ditch and wanted to show his granddaughter, but as he approach He found a young woman nude her head covered in a sweater and garbage bags. The farmer drove back, comb and notified authorities soon after the Grundy county sheriff's officers arrived and found a young black woman dead of a gunshot wound to the head in an unincorporated part of grundy county. Authorities try to identify the woman, but no one can forward, and they were and well to match her to any missing persons reports. Six weeks later on, giving day she was buried.

In an unmarked grave in a local cemetery. Forty three years later. She remains identified on this up. The vanished. We are taking a look at the other side of missing persons cases the unidentified amr and from wondering this episode. One hundred and sixty one of the vanished the story of grundy county, Jane, doe the. we finally almost made it this summer and for all of those events, speech weakens weddings and everything in between my go to shop

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testing was in practice, but it didn't you much more than identify the sex or blood type of the victim. Today you're telling the story of Jane doe in the home that she will soon be reunited with her family and given her name back ground, county. Illinois is a small county southwest of chicago. The area is filled with fear holds and farm land a far cry from the busy metropolitan areas in adjacent counties on october Second, nineteen. Seventy six, a form and seneca Illinois encountered a woman's body. Her head was wrapped in a plastic bag and a sweater. she was dead of a gunshot wound to the head. It appears Oh, the bag had been placed over her head before she was shot. There was a whole in the bag and a casing found inside the plastic was too around her head with electrical tape and then a red white and black sweater was wrapped around the bag. It was asked you did that she had been killed within twenty four hours prior to the discovery of her body there.

Very little forensic evidence to be examined at the scene. They did no the sweater that was wrapped around her head still had a partial price tag attached. It said, fifteen. Ninety nine, there was also a half empty bottle of t J swan wine, but its unclear if this was related to Jane doe she did have a scar on her upper right thigh that appeared to have been there for quite some time. Her teeth appeared to have been well cared for and they noted that she had not been pregnant recently, they took vaginal bob's that were negative for seminal plasma and male reproductive cells. The far Well, who found Jane doe, stated that he had been up and down the road six or seven times that day, but didn't notice. anything in the ditch. He had seen or heard anything suspicious the night before, but he didn't And that his dog had been barking parking lot around midnight two nights prior buddy No wise dog seemed so upset enjoy. those file? There's a report about some found property jane

was found on October second, and on December eighteenth. A bag was found near by and it was believed that the items inside could have belonged to her, but there is no way to know for sure inside the boy was a bra two pairs of underwear, a tattered skirt, a pair of patent leather high heels, a pair of pantyhose into other here's of pantyhose that were each tied into two loops in a way that resembled rope restraints. They know that it was similar to a pair of handcuffs because of the distance between the loops. They were never but to figure out for sure that these items belonged to her but its understandable. Why they suspected they could have been hers since were found near by and the pantyhose that look like restraints could have been used when she was murdered back in that in seventy six. They thought that Jane doe was between eighteen and twenty three years of age, but she was recently exude, which we will into a bit more later,

when they exude her. They expanded her possible age range to between fifteen and twenty seven years old. At the time of her death, after Jane doe was found. The investigators did everything they could think to do at the time. Missing persons list were scour an artist rendering of Jane doe was posted on television and in the newspapers, but they were now oh solid leads. They got some tips. that she was a local sex work her, but they were able determine that she wasn't any of the women mentioned by these tipp. So without any claims to this woman officials buried and put the case on a shelf for this so I spoke to several people who are working diligently to determine who Jane doe is Brandon Johnson is the deputy coroner for grundy county illinois, The one who initially contacted me asking if I'd be willing to cover a jane doe case. I said, of course it's been thing that I've wanted to do since I started the show Brandon

very committed to giving Jane doe her name back when we spoke with him We asked him how he became involved with identifying the identified. I started as a murder to medical technician. Paramedic I spent time once I wanta became her about it. I took a job with the body will serve its cargo and that I work for them with the tragic for the serious. I worked there for a year and we constantly responded to our twelve hours ships there hundred up, we catch the wynn report, it up a bus station like it's gotta, homicide, change, hospitals on claims, natural accidents, everything anything and merely. I was to swear to transport them to the medical center.

The office, I wasn't in it no responsibilities of investigating. I was just there to basically back them in and transport them to the Abby's office, where there'd be an autopsy, so I became interested in that scene. You know the beginnings of things that go there: a scene autopsies before I'd responded. Thus, this paramedic had always had an interest in putting the puzzle pieces together so overtime that they drive up there got to be too much I mean I was. I was very busy up there, so a lot of interest cases but put down here I do our work and that is closer to home. I live in the county the shot on it and took off running my interest was obviously investigations. I wanted to be involved and I to get my my hands on. You know, get my feet wet in this new investigative part. You know I got to see things through from the beginning, commanded,

this tropic. Somebody on the board Brandon told us what he knows from dingoes initial autopsy report at the time of it Perhaps you there in nineteen seventy six. I was determined at this, milon identified. He died as a result. the laceration of the brain, with multiple fractured skull due to a gunshot wounds, add which shut down days. We would just say a gunshot wounds, bad and nineteen. Seventy six a little bit different The matter of death was ultimately ruled the homicide she was found a thief, nor did she newt covered with a sweater I believe the only color photo we had was tat. He thought of the scene, photos black and white and everything was just different. The reports were, you know, typed or hand written in some cases. The autopsy itself was at a funeral home. Now, it's always at a coroner's office or a medical examiners office with you.

A forensic pathologist, something that was really around back then either forensic pathologist as beneficial with with homicide cases, especially just all sorts of improvements with Yes, I have the crime web dna and then just so much forensic testing at this point. So when we took a fresh look at this again, pebbles I want to say, is spent about almost a year now we ve been working on this. We had approached the sheriff's office at the time in there is really nothing for them to pursue. We you Here we are working. This case is an unidentified case to try and make an identification. They were negative open the criminal investigation at the time there are no cold case detected in the county. There's a few detectives on the sheriff department, detective sergeant and No other specialist on our area have had discussions

The illinois state police crime lab some creating investigators. They did offer assistance with with taking a look at things. I've lived spoke with general many professionals across the board is expressed. Trust the future is- is working bright, who spent almost here and this now and everything's. Finally, just really pulling through we're seeing results where we're seeing what what what's been done at at this point, we wait anxiously and any word back from the university of north texas. Any leads to panic, We also spoke to chief coroner John callaghan for this episode. He started. career in the funeral industry more than forty years ago, and we wanted to know why this Jane doe was probably not reported missing as officials at the time. could find no matching missing persons we had escaped

remain. Sound of a young girl had been missing for three years and she wasn't reported missing for about two to three weeks. Only because- and she was only seventeen but she led the lifestyle of Some older men, boyfriends and not coming home from a weaker at the time. So I just thickets, perhaps their lifestyle that tat takes into that. I mean they they just don't check in with family members are not acted with their family for days and weeks upon at a time, and so that's why families, dog excited or or call police, because they haven't heard from because it is there there, a normal way life back. There there is a lot of houses bars that would have of Ladys working whether it was stripping

beyond that, even a it was just prevalent back. Then there were several places here in Grundy county that had them. So you know they could be, ladies, that were traveling from the bigger cities because imagine. Forty years ago, the black ratio here and grundy was probably slammed the nun absolutes change today, but the location of her body to the interstate was basically a mile in a straight shot. You accept the others Dr St south, and the first big turn in the road which is all too we're out in that area. That's where she was and based on again based on the evidence and the reports and such you know, it appears that she was dumped there and not you know not actually a killed their last november. The coroner's office received approval from state authorities to zoom Jane doe. They were very

concern that the casket and other materials would no longer be intact, but we're surprise to find. The remains were an excellent condition. So we we're just going by some notes that the youth her home that dumb, the coroner back then actually owned. There is some notes of what they had done, so they in the notes paid referred to ziegler case, which is just a real threat. Metal case, and it has you know, like thirty screws on the lid and a they were made for the purpose of shipping people out of the country, and so it met the customs requirements and such so saw they placed her in and she wasn't bombed. So that was good, but they displaced turn that and then placed her in the ground without putting her into a vault, which is a concrete structure and seals airtight watertight, but she was it so whole opposite, the metal deteriorated low bet. There is actually a hole in the bottom of it

and moisture you was in there and she was actually placed in a rubber body bag and then into the ziglar is the rubber head out deteriorated away and basically all it was left was skelter remains. So we are very fortunate to be able to. You know, dig down, until we touched the case and then we went, I hadn't done it by hand, so we would damage anything. and then we were able to slip a couple of straps under neath the unit and pick the whole thing up. So there was an exciting day. I have to say, because all I could picture is happening to you know, make screens up and sift dirt and all that type of thing. But that wasn't the case. So that was a good. You know it was a good day and then numb brainer back here and without a good going through the room

ins and I'm trying to collect all the bones, we could collect again we're talking about forty one years ago. I would have thought that the ziglar case would have collapsed. And no deteriorate way word dirt was mixed in with the um remains, and it wasn't the case. It was totally still structurally sound except the very bottom underneath, that didn't affect or anything coming out of the hole, in fact that kind of help, because the water dream doubt so yeah I couldn't have asked for anything more. You know both maniples were still intact with the skull. So I took that up to a couple of forensic orientologists and they worked it up and such so You know that was that was a good day as well. Brandon was also nervous about the condition they might find. Jane doze remains in, but was her.

That they now have more to work. With than expected, we've got good bones. Who's got good hair that was still intact, though we're working with our path that could've helped us. That day was the anatomy portion of it and and how we're going to move forward with was submitting the balls with you initial impression, from your talk and other people, especially Apologise see you on T. They were telling me conditions of what they found after twenty years. So I was already expecting you not the worst case scenario. I was expect Water would be overloaded and their grave. The bones, I obviously you wouldn't be damaged by just talk to them

It's still still be there. The animals would have got some, there would be water damage from him, but I didn't expect to have any hair to work with. I'm really surprised it wasn't the torso was it more scallop, lace and the skull. Everything was just just remarkable. We didn't have straightforward and a gunshot wound. It was a little hurt, a little hard to determine that you could see where a fracture was a pathologist pointed out, but really couldn't find the gunshot itself, not what I would have expected that could have been more of a smaller caliber for thirty eight I'm starting to question. If it was a thirty, eight or not, I would almost have been like a twenty two. You would think just from looking at the scope. I see there is a little break there. The only thing once we did have it over time. The teeth held up pretty well,

one choose it'll fall out, but it is maintained in close proximity within the casket, so we still had all teeth recovered. Only one tooth had fallen off of the the gums mandible. If he will nothing changed, we we saw what was you know done back then, as far as embalming- and you know the fluids in the casket with them and it's the techniques that they did back then to so, I know forensic clues for us. Obviously we can't they can't do a sexual assault kit. At this point, you can't do nail clippings, there's a lot of things that This kind of been taken away from us with such a time delay when this case was reopened. Stephen, enforcement officials attempted to obtain a dna profile from the sweater found on Jane doe. However, the deal profile was a mixture and was suitable for entry into the national dna database code. Us this car

came the investigation because there have been a few people who thought she might be their loved one, but the dna didn't match. One of these people is a woman in nearby inglewood illinois. She will it's jane. Doe was are missing, daughter. Surely now and our eighties. This mom says that she remembers buying a sweater similar to the one found on Jane doe and she says that she did report her daughter, missing and provided pictures to the local police, but the police were able to find any record of her being reported missing. She keeps a complete sketch of Jane doe hung on her wall and she the dna samples to state law enforcement, where an attempt was made to compare the swab to the blood dna on the sweater test. Results were conclusive. Is it possible that the dna They obtained from the sweater isn't jane doze corps callaghan spoke about his offices. Work with this woman who believes that Jane doe is her daughter

lady, we lap and saw an ngo would advise chicago if he had a picture on the wall. That was based on the superimposed pictures and sketches that we have gotten over the years, but she truly has a lot of resemblance and that she recognized the sweater. You know we spent a couple of hours with her and she was just so hopeful that this would bring some closure to her and that we took swabs of her

it's about eighty forty five and she just swore up and down this their daughter, and you know we ran it through the state lab and it did not come up a match, but I still don't think that we have from the sweater good dna. I think that when the femur gets processed and we get the dna from that- I dunno I get- maybe I'm just being too hopeful here, but I just feel so much more comfortable that it's being done with the real valuable bone being the femur a versus just a sweater, that's been kept in a dam.

plastic bag in a plastic container for forty years, and so I think Brandon actually spoke to her and um to tell her that the results from the state lab were inconclusive and you know we haven't shot the light out time and we still have hope so so we're hoping that we can get things done in texas and and a while she's still alive, and You know whether it's yes or no. I dunno you know so I I would give anything to be able to go back up there and say yes, we've brought this. This is her. You know I would love to this lady and ngo, would she couldn't recall names are anything, but she said her daughter ran with some rough people and she thought one of them had been in prison or I mean you know so you know who knows until she was recently exude. It was the will to know if the blood on the sweater belonged to her. But the coroner's office hopes that dna from her femur

we'll be entered into the national dna database as soon as that, testing is completed. We asked for nor callaghan, to share what kind of evidence was preserved and how the blood The sweater was examined by state authorities. We started going through what evidence that they had, which forty years ago, I'm in they don't they didn't do like they do today, so So what we had to work with was in a very small but we had all the reports and photographs that were taken back then in such in college. build their own case here and then it at the time initiated that all we basically had was some dna on a sweater which you know is question about best. According to the reports, they indicate that there is a vile blood taken for storage

but we haven't even located that and the sweater which had evidence of blood on it was basically just in a plastic container, along with the actual reports, binders photographs and it was one of the larger tubs, and it was actually call mingled with some other cases, so again it I'll goin back to they have done forty years ago as to what we do today is like night and day advocacy cases are kept especially homicides, kept totally separate, and you know evidence with blood on it would be stored. More correctly, even in a paper bag in the vile blood would have been I mean we ve had other homicide sense, but I mean they're, captain refrigeration, so there's no blood breakdown and such so I'm not condemning the way they did things forty years ago,

guess. I'm not sure what type of training they would head back back then, but I think there is a lot. There is definitely a lot to be learned from this coroner callaghan also shared some of the practices that have changed in how homicides are processed and evidence is preserved. since he started working in the field in the nineteen seventies back in the seventies, even when I started and law enforcement I started land. or certain seventy nine and common to go to autopsies in garages. A funeral homes or in their proper preparation. Rumor. Do the bombings, which the lighting is a lot to be desired. There's no containment, shall I say, of other individuals coming in and out because it is a funeral home, so they have a business to conduct. So there's a lot of possibilities that can unfortunately happen security, wise and such and does so. Today,

I mean I don't know of any pathologists that I'm in touch with that will even do an examination in a garage or a funeral home. They prefer the forensic morgues, which were very fortunate here, grundy to have and so they examine examinations are done under much more controlled environment, arabic patient lighting. The capabilities of action he's on hand just night and day, quite obviously, because I'm in back in When I first started, I was involved as a deputy sheriff with examination that were done in future homes and grudges lay special garages when I say that at them referring to cases where a de camp, where there's odor so the piano directors or if home owners didn't want that in their preparation room. So we would actually do mc Rigel and here again it since

different and then not only that the evidence that the collected today stays right here until the appropriate location for it. evidence to be shipped her hand delivered, is taken place. I can recall back in the again back in the seventies when an examination was done at the funeral home, so that meant, Everyone, the coroner, the pathologist police officers and whoever was involved and investigation, had to say We travel there bring their own supplies and then leave that facility with their supplies their evidence and such so then, where does it go from there? Does it go home with the person for that evening until he comes back to work tomorrow? You know the all that type of thing the

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killers in american history was in the middle of his nearly decade. Long killing, sprit of young men not far away John Wayne Gacy tortured and killed nineteen each boys in nearby chicago the same year that Jane doe was murdered in total gacy. old, at least thirty three teenage boys and young men. He wouldn't be arrested for another two years, but crimes changed the way missing. An unidentified cases are treated across the country today, sick of cases victims also remain on identified. We spoke to cook county d, the sergeant jason moran. For this episode he's a lead, detective working identify the remainder of cases, victims and he's trying to assist in the identification of grundy county jane doe. He spoke about what it's like to work on cold cases, and the special challenges that come with working to identify the unidentified money jason moran am I'm a detective sergeant with the cocaine county police.

I currently led the forensic services initiative which Basically a cold case unit. I who all murderers on missing persons- schuman, identification, which could mean blush bodies or skeletal remains body parts. I also work on complex death investigations I worked very closely whether medical examiners office and these tapes cases about the sheriff's office for twenty years and I've been doing during investigations for the vast majority of that time. I liked the cold this is because one, I think it say, are served some field of investigations. It just does not receive, in my opinion, the attention that it deserves.

You know someone is murdered today or goes. This appears on the suspicious circumstances today will send out dozens and dozens of of policemen to investigate and that's fine. I don't disagree with that. I think we have to, but once the case goes, old and investigative leaves start running out or a new big case comes along. The cases are sometimes become forgotten, and I just think that sir unfortunate, so I dont think that someone that was murdered today is it any more or less important than some

there was more than thirty years ago, and but yet we country wide. We put much more resources into other than the things that happened today and that much in the form of cold. It's just detective moran shared some of his experiences working the Gacy cases and how new police, sing and evidence preservation standards will hopefully prevent someone from remaining unidentified for forty years today. That's day come you need part of working, a serial killer case. The fact that they see had so many victims kind of provides a profile of victim profile.

And yet, as opposed to a killer that maybe has one or two victims where the profile is harder to established with the Gacy case, because there were so many victims and we know that these she killed at least thirty three boys and a six year period. Nineteen to nineteen. Seventy eight, when the sheriff- and I decided to reopen the case. Twenty five of the thirty three victims had been identified so, there was one of the first things I did when we decide to reopen. The case was to look at the twenty five identified victims and learn about them. If you start to learn about them, you could see that gacy was picking a similar type of victim. I believe that's because these were sexually motivated crimes in other words, Gacy was picking boys that he was attracted to.

And then the way we handle on the way here acquiring victims and we knew that he was acquiring. Victims are few different ways one gacy own day, construction company called pdf, painting decorating a name he would hire young men to do our work and some of its employees, ida beings victim So we knew that especially now, when someone calls you talk about their missing love from so many years ago. Now they say while he worked in the construction business. Well, that's a tip or a clue, because we Molly there Gacy was killing some of his employees. Another way he would acquire victims is, acquire a young gay men because he was gay himself. So if someone were gay prostitutes and someone so, if someone calls to talk about the missing

when they say all well, we we began to think or we knew that he was homosexual. That's helpful also. He would pick up young men who were hitchhiking or on the bus. So many many bosses and trains come through Chicago and the seventies different time in our history. A lot of people would hitchhike, so he would pick up hitchhikers or he'd way by bus stops answer hey. Do you need a ride and some of those kids ended up being becoming his victim, so There was definitely a connection to the the seventies lifestyle and and and travelling to hitchhiking in an and buses and those such things, but on the other hand, some of the issues that can for local boys there are local kids, you know especially Gacy. Lastly, rubber peace. This was a good kid from

average family good people had a job at a local pharmacy. Gacy was doing some work and the pharmacy offered the killer jobs. Re launch, hey, come home with me, will get you lined up and in the was never seen or heard from again it was come. A balance between some of the kids were local and some of them were transient from working. Recalls you with our medical examiners office. I know that we bury about ten unidentified deceased a year. It still happens, and these can body parts and scalpel remains in the other. Still handful even with new protocols and play, the innate now being available. Now my predecessors we're primarily using dental records to identify gacy identified victims Dna was not an optional was available, it wasn't even a thing, so even with dna and some other

science, that we? U and databases. That was another thing that my predecessors do not have a lot of, I was databases. You have even and see icy international crime information centre. That was relatively new, especially the missing persons. Category started. Nineteen. Seventy five I wouldn't have name is a net mac and all these organisms now that assist law enforcement with these types of cases. So I would like to think that. Or you know our jane doe or the the Gacy victims as it happens, something like this happened today, we would have more identified or it be easier to identify some of these people, but unfortunately still happens it. And that goes back to what I was saying it the thing, but some people slip through the cracks they dont have anybody. The lifestyle dictates if gonna live a normal anonymously, don't have large costs

we buy, it can happen. Your people often ask me, put a serial killer like Gacy exist today that within six years have thirty, free male victims in one geographic area, in other words that are not a traveling serial killer, a serial killer who stays in one area. I'd like to say no. I I would like to say that with modern policing practices that it would not take thirty three victims before we look kate, the killer. The kokiden medical alzheimer's office was having some issues a few years ago, with bodies being stored at the at them in the morgue and with some of the friends of resources, there. We were using an identified this person cases, so I was bob and drafting a port of call for these types of incidents, and

we it talks about. In short, it basically talks about the three main scientific ways to identify an unidentified the scene would be fingerprints, dental in dna that you know within twenty four hours. If the values flashed fingerprints are taken and sent off to the lab to be analyzed within thirty days, dental records are taken, both have charts an x rays with the ninety days, a biological sample from the scene it sent off to the lab for dna testing and why all the scientific processes are going along the police

are doing the conventional police work searching through missing persons bulletin entering the scenes, demographics into missy person, clearing houses, putting out information about the identified to seem to trial. Pain some info, so we're doing that now these processes are taking place. call even goes into some advanced processes like facial reconstruction. But the main thing for us here was our our unidentified deceased were being buried after a short amount of time in an unmarked hill Horses, where you couldn't find them again, if you needed to do more scientific testing. This protocol basically said

that at the end of all these processes, once fingerprints, dental dna, all the conventional police work is done. The dna profiles irena full cycle through quotas that the amis office- the law enforcement agency need talk about what else can be done if anything and if they both agree on all of these items have been completed and are still no identification They both sign off on the burial of the scene, but now that the scene goes into a single dep mark grave and if in a year or two, a five or ten a cold case, detective like me needs to get back to the body. We could find it again so that some of the things that were doing here and it's and helps, while speaking with detective moran, we asked him about some of the challenges and working on missing an unidentified persons cases. He shirts,

interesting insight about the limbo that families with missing loved ones live with every day. Well, you know, I always talk about the long term missing persons I mean, I guess, there's been a lot of ah very nice partners and then some tough parts as well, but long term missing persons stick out at night. In my mind, because I said with the families dozen, thousands of families of long term missing persons, and I always say that, like the fattest people which that you can meet- and that's because they live in a cool about where you don't know what to think about the missing one. I've done does in thousands of that notifications also someone dies suddenly in a car crash of a suicide of a homicide and couple hours later, the police are knocking on the door,

the guy in the short time. I have to say I'm sorry to report, but your love, one is the seas, and this is what happened. I hate their part of detective work. I never like make that modifications. It's no difference in so different cold cases having been report to a family that their love, one was murdered by John Gacy, is no easier than reporting to someone today that their loved ones, that I, that notifications are just awful it's part of the job, but it just awful. But the thing is with tat: we learn The circumstances surrounding the individuals passing we could have services in the form of wakes and memorials and burials and cremations and churches and there's a place to go to cry or to or to laugh, remembering The deceased love one that doesn't make it any easier and

for many in never goes away the loss of a loved one but eventually our minds web of around that that our bodies are going to die as a result of disease or trauma. Well, family members of long term missing persons don't have that benefit, then don't instead of knowing the circumstances strong, their loved ones pass it all they have is questions where have they been for ten twenty thirty forty years all they did. They alai shut. Your some people told me I thought my mobile and made it had amnesia They don't know they. They believe in a cruel limbo where they don't know what to think about their missing love one and, as a result, it creates deep sadness. They don't know what to do and they would you do with your loved ones bedroom, but they ve been missing. For thirty years, I've had some this

Family members have want term missing persons tommy. They would move four point thirty forty year because they thought that their sano daughter, who was missing, would have actually remembered and come back to the house, and then they would be gone because they would have moved and they would have missed the opportunity of reunite with their loved level so no living in this cruel and ball with a long term missing person, I think, being able to help these families is I have been one of the most rewarding parts of doing called case work on my career as a police even when the in the answers it you're providing house, imagine you, your love. One has been killed by John Gacy, because the sheriff- and I thought about this- by doing more harm than good by reopening case, doing more harm than good is learning that your love one was killed by this evil man better, not knowing and what we ve learned as it is the answer of happened to their missing baldwin, even if its tragic is better than

not knowing, because your mind just placed horrible tricks on you, detective brian told us that he has recovered some missing people alive and well and has been to reunite them with their family members he's been working on cold, basis for many years, and he values knowledge we have today in forensics, but he is so found that establish police methods still prove to be valuable in working on cold cases. What the missing person, I thought was very likely to be a victim of John Gacy in, but before I did the scientific work I did. conventional work and I was able to find him living in another state. Do this family problem is on personal problems? He stayed away, but now he lives with a sister. You know I was able to unite them. They move back together here I was still alive and they have a wonderful life together. So somebody Imposing stories argument is a tragic. You know they want

killed by an evil man or died of other causes actually were alive. Some died of natural causes. I was able to find a certificate of deafening. any of those answers to be all sit down with these individuals, all these years or even sometimes even to exclude them from the gaiety case for thirty five years, you knew thought that your love one was one of gaiety. comes, but because you didn't have dental records yourself and you could do. But now we being able to say he's not one of these victims. Heed last person to see him alive was not does evil killer. Another interesting thing that detective moran shared is held differences in our culture in the nineteen seventies. Compared to today created the perfect opportunity for serial killers to commit their crimes in further vic. to remain unidentified, restated its cases like the gay cat.

The kind of changed, the way that society and law enforcement investigate. Certain, incidentally, saw it on missing persons prior to the geisha case, especially local was not a high priority, many times in fact, the norm, families would come in the hay. My sixteen year old kid did not come home. Last night, I'd like to report a missing in law enforcement, say why don't you come back in twenty four forty, eight seventy two hours next week, if you still missing, will take the report, but that's what these kids do nowadays and it was. You know this families sort of lent itself to the activities of serial killers. In all this kind of lucy goosey travelling around the the amount of drugs that was no it in society

another know the familiar and much you don't go to the beach for two weeks, that's not tally. Body were whereat. I would make a job when I do presentation. Other things where Could I remind me I'm not at all, but I mean I remember the kid and companies and and the looking at hitchhikers. It was common I'm even in the eighties? It was common. But now I laugh because the drivers look at the hitchhiker like I'm, I'm not. It wasn't him in my car and the hitchhikers don't hit track any anymore because they look at the guys in the car and go I'm not getting in the car with him. The hitchhikers know. drivers, trust each other anymore, I thought it was a great practice either and I think it lends itself to people being harmed in certain ways was one way that Gacy acquired as victims, and then he roaming them soon, as you get in the car this someone that has a weak family bond, some of it has a strong here.

but it is someone where I could coax him into my house with drugs and alcohol maybe I can coax into my house over job offer you know and that's when their process started and it's just unfortunate that these things happen. The gaiety. case did change the way we do missing persons. Was no more weight. Twenty four forty eight seventy two hours locally here that that ended, and another thing was, law enforcement could not do a report. Saying that they located the missing persons and lifting the missing person unless they laid eyes on them, which was a big change from a time period, because What would happen back in the day? He is someone reported missing a detective would be assigned the case and sometimes especially with juveniles they would go, and we still do to this day. There's a missing kid. We gonna talk to their friends and, if one of them,

instead said no, no, I saw a missing person yesterday at the corner store buying a pop. He was fine. Well, some detectives would consider that the missing person was located in the Gacy case. Couple of kids ended up being in the call space, so we we don't do that anymore either. So sometimes these big cases They are changed the way society values there. You sometimes it change the way law enforcement, the their policies and greece yours I'm on those types of cases, and there was definitely true here sometimes, while researching a case we encounter. A police department has policy that they do not work with the media at all detective. And believes that the relationship between law enforcement and the media is crucial. Depend on the media for certain things You know when you don't have a missing child,

or you do have a missing personal, unidentified deceased or you know when you do a facial reconstruction Someone like brandons doing you know any. want to get it out will depend on the media. It's one of those relationships, words like sometimes hey I I need up on this case you, you have a big pulpit. We need to get this information to the public and the media the best way. That's what to do it the often gets overlooked is the emotional toll that working these kinds of cases can take on those investigating them. I know that I feel myself working on the show Sometimes you got a laugh to keep from crying, because these stories are tragic. These families aren't or are incredibly sad, and we will deal with it every day and if you don't laugh as a coping mechanism about silly things, the mental trauma would drive you crazy. In these cases, especially the cold,

So they stick with you wanting the details of the case meeting with families and thinking about that comes in all the possibilities and is a killer they're. Still in there's so many things that you gotta find gotta little things little things come along throughout the day that do could bring out. You know, make a laugh a little bit just just to keep from from crying, I always say while this story primarily focuses on the efforts to identify Jane doe, I wanted to share with listeners, but the cook canny sheriff's office would like anyone who thinks they might have information on a victim of John wayne. Gacy to do well we're looking for years any missing may or why there were missing from the period of about nine he's seventy, seventy one, true nineteen, seventy nine

and they are all about. The youngest of allegations victims were fourteen, the oldest for about twenty four, so those are the ages were looking at. If you have some of my dad in your life, you could call my desk number, which is Seven zero, eight area code, eight, six, five, six to fall for that seven, zero aid area code, eight, six, five, sixty four four or you can go to the sheriff- a cook counties. Website and there's a actually a form you could fill out. If you think your love want or friend is an unidentified Gacy victim there's nothing like getting lost in a great story, but sometimes we just don't have the time or energy to read with the audible app. He can take stories

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percent body weight by this time next year. That's our o dot c, o slush lower. Since this episode is a bit different, I wanted to do some research about how unidentified persons are given their name back. We were fortunate and To sit down and talk with doktor Colleen Fitzpatrick, who cofounded the dna dough project with doktor margaret press, you may have about their successful identification of marcia king who was for many years as the buckskin girl, we had so many questions First, we wanted to hear a bit about her background and what the dna dough project has been up to recently. My name is, colleagues have patrick, I am

the executive directors of the dna doe project and we are dedicated to using genetic genealogy to identify, Identifying, John and Jane. Does we've had several really nice success story? Probably our most notable on our easiest one was buckskin girl. She was a Jane doe found in nineteen. Eighty one enjoy ohio. She was found within twenty four hours and when she had been strangled and left by the side of the road she gets her name from a buckskin jacket. She was weak when she was found. Everything had been done to try and identify her. They tried

her dna in quotas. They tried fingerprints but try pollen analysis of the pollen on her jacket. They tried isotope analysis of the isotopes in her body, your bones and nothing worked. So we got the case from Elizabeth Murray, who, I think has had Saint Joseph university in ohio in Cincinnati. Ohio We had the dna sequence. Women The judge match kid out of it. We did genetics our dream we identified within four hours she had where he had been unidentified for thirty seven years, that identification was based on a blood sample that they had kept. Thirty seven years it had been on refrigerated anna had been mixed with heparin, which is in an equivalent, and still it yielded great.

Dna and we were able to identify her as marcia lenore saucer men came from little rock arkansas many of us in the true crime community familiar with the dna dough projects, successful identification efforts in long term, unidentified cases we did you know how her organization started and about the origins of joy illogical dna. This story about two thousand, when You entrepreneurs realise that keen eye could be used to identify relatives in the absence of genealogy relatives in the absence of documentation. So a number companies will launch back then, basically mainly to use why dna to help the family line, so for example, Had my brother sad trick, Patrick his name tested to see if we could

ro. It is out there that I didn't know about simply because the why dna follows the a line in the family like the family name. So when this happened, the genealogist borrowed those. Why markers from the forensic commute? so that you know I realize some time in two thousand and eleven that it would be not so hard to take a why profile on a co case and match to the Y dna databases? thou on line through the genetic genealogy community. So since I have been able to provide last names on various cold cases and help solve them. When twenty three me came about in, say two thousand and six or so that was a different kind of test and that was not borrowed from the forensic community that was borrowed from the medical community. Twenty three may started testing snip,

and testing snips, for you know medical conditions, whatever you want to say about that, but started also testing for genealogy. So the basic way that worked was that he takes a let's say: six hundred thousand snips of points on the dna, and, if you put that into your database- and you see how many points each person shares with how many other people- and that tells you how closely they are related- but if I did this- and I found somebody that shared say, ten percent of my points to have be around a first cousin herself, so that was, if you use dna along all lines of the family. So as time advanced in those databases got bigger, they became an interest in using those for forensic cases, but the direct to consumer or

companies wouldn't go there, they didn't wanna do forensic cases in the many reasons for that, including fourth amendment surgeons, These are issues privacy concerns and so on. So a year ago? I know Margaret nine and would say there are few other groups There had been a lot of talk about using the forensic community in o, became aware of these large databases. They wanted to use them to consumer companies, would allow that, but at the same time, the gene, I'll, just realized the value of reaching out to the forensic community they had been. a number of genealogist her head gotten. Their dna whole genome sequence, so they got oh thing analyzed and they had taken some software avail

but and pulled out the markers that could be used for genetic genealogy and uploaded those two jed match and independent website not associated with the companies, and it worked fine. They didn t really have to go to the direct consumer companies. Are you go directly to this independence? I called shed match Their analysis find their dna cousins and it came a time when there was a genealogist out just who father had died. He decides to try the same thing using the dna from the tissue of his father's biopsy. So, instead of im going to give a sample of him going and give a sample? He brought his dead tissue to the lab they extracted dna. They could whole genome sequencing. They did that software that kicked out the snips they composed what was equivalent to an ancestry kit uploaded to Jed mentioned at work

charm. This was. This was the first note to my knowledge example: somebody using this method on somebody who was deceased soda. Point modernize. Why you know white bob went on, we could use for John and Jane doze. in time. I imagine the golden state killer, people realizing it could be used for suspect cases as long as they didn't go through the direct consumer labs, So the revolution started, we did Joseph Newton chandler was the first identification we did on march, the fifth and about two weeks later, I think, like march twelve or thirteenth, we did buckskin girl. We identified her. She was the first public match doing this and, of course, the golden state killer happened after that, and the revolution started now, because these whole process was powered

the medical industry and not the forensics the forensic community is now trying to get the head around it. Trying to the stand, how to use it trying to understand the challenges trying to make sense out of it, so they can use it in a general sense to solve their call cases. I heard doktor Fitzpatrick midge snips several times, but I didn't know anything about what that is. So we asked a snip, isn t sack just a point on a dna. That's changed. His gun, like a typo in a book, is You can think of. You know your dna age, you see tee in a long low alphabet string age. You see tee if you think that, in terms of analogy of a book you're a book will tell you some bodies

story, everything in really need to know about them. You know that made their life story. Dna is come like your biochemical life story and just like in a book you have chapters. In the story in DINA you have chapters call chromosomes in each chapter. Each chromosomes tells part of that life story and if you missing a chapter, you missing part the story, and so when you write a book, it's possible, you have typos in that book and cat might turn into bad. Accidental well in dna, the same thing happens. If you might, you know, have a letter in the dna alphabet in it, it's wrong to change those it I thought when dna went to divide, replicate the cells divided and head provide dna to all the new cells that there was a typo made that

dna didn't catch now, believer it or not. Dna has a spell check so that when the dna why'd. You know it's got a multi replicate itself to fill up the dog yourselves. You know, new cells and new dna. That dna has a spell check. That goes back to make sure that. New dna is the same as the old dna, but sometimes the spell check misses a typo. oh dna- sometimes, mrs something- and you too have these typos built up in those across steps If you didn't care where you're looking on that, you normally probably happen all the time, but if you sit at one point and you wait for that to develop a snip that one exactly I need only waiting a long time, there's just punter location, three billion location. So so they say that, As you know, the human race and evolved that there's a sneer, probably one every hundredth position, but most of the sniff stone.

matter. You know they're out and junk dna, but occasionally like in a book. You will have a type of that makes a big difference in the story. Similarly, that's when snip will occur in a gene in change that gene, so you might develop parkinson's, are you? Might it might be the gene for some kind of protein or some kind of muscle development the new cap into the middle of it, and it doesn't work the same way and you can get sick, so those not very many, but I think parkinson's is one of them. I snippet in the wrong place. I think breast cancer, I think you're somebody might mic correct me on that. Occasionally you will have a snip just play. She didn't and that will cause that person to have some genetic disease? Dr Fitzpatrick told us how dna from unidentified decisions is obtained and what some of them

current challenges are in obtaining samples from very old remains, as well as from persons of interest. My understanding is that the power of attorney a person with the medical examiner or that his office. You know, I think it varies per agency and first day in our own thing, saying let's say the medical examiner or they detect, It- has the right to make the decision about the tissue sample the bone or the dna of that deceased. Individual first year is gonna get permission from his own people that it's ok to proceed, and then we talk to him. You know we talk to the lab. We talked to him say what do you have a veil? well, if they said we'll, have we have. You know a fifty five gallon drum of dna. Okay, great sent, you know, take a big scooper and throw it our way all joking aside, if they had enough dna,

we could send to our lab and holding of sequencing, and that means you get the whole genome pick out. The snaps, like I described with oranges. I the other route. If only a small amount of dna turns out to be available, we can just do the chip, like you know, and ancestry, ask chip and just get the judgments directly. You lose thousand whistles. You know you stuff when it that route, but still it may be the only way to get up on your match if its bone. We talk about a bone extraction and there's a couple of ways. We can do that. We work with several vendors in we would have the help organise getting the bone sample to the boy extraction. People stay on top of it and when it was done, we put ourselves as points of contact for when it's done. We know it's done too, not just the agency. No, we can talk to the agency about getting it sent.

The right place. You know whether it's enough dna for hosting of sequencing or chip and then once we have that at the lab, then you don't. We go through our quality check, our sequencing or chip announced can you imagine oliver sanity checks in the metal and serial killers once that no little cop, you kind of wish they would. But so you know we we'd get blood samples. That's great! We get tissue samples, we ve had bloody clothing. We get a lot of scale two remains and in those cases if dna has already been extracted from the remains we send those out to whatever company. And we work with several companies on that and they try to extract the dna from the bones. You can get a lotta dna. If you're lucky get itty bitty amounts of dna, you can get maybe the

dna degraded, you dont know. So the challenges are enough to understand. First, with sample, you have available to know how the route that sample the way you can maximize you know? You're ability saw the case and then to let the sample pass quality check and see if its highly degraded. After the dna from either the unidentified person or the person of interest is obtained, what happens next? case of our jane doe. What the chances that she would have living relatives in a genial dna database. Doktor Fitzpatrick answered some of those questions. She should be like twenty something ok, let's say twenty years old and has been what forty six year, so she would have been sixty six, so likely you will find her. You could find first cousins. Ah, you could probably fine and

but uncle who are older in twenty years younger this funny. Eighty years old people walking round- if she had a very large family, you might find an aunt and uncle lex about the same age. Her parents I'd still be alive. Her grandparents, certainly or gone actually is a lot decide. You gonna come up with your gain. A cousins right and, as I said, people are same age, would be her her siblings, her first cousins. Those people probably of children, and children, so it is more likely come up with a first cousin once removed first cousin, twice row. Second cousin, maybe the parents, but probably not I'm emphasized that just to mention that even you don't get nice relatives like that, you can do things like look at where all those matches are from and find. Maybe some geography where she could have been from

No, if you see all images like with dell in the well in there was some idea she may have been from alabama georgia and stuff like that, because the publicity campaigns they had to trying identifier she was found in ohio in you know, associated with west virginia and stuff. Nobody came forward, but when we did the jedd match, we found all of her all of her matches. Almost all of them were from west virginia. So if you don't, even if you don't get close cousins, you can get some kind of geography of the origins of the family of your unknown or you can get the ethnicity estimates they have. Ah, there are my parents related. Is another thing that confine its specific to certain populations in the country. I worked on a case in north carolina where we knew the father was The carolinas in the western part of the state, whether heavily in a married, but

and were not related, and that kept me off that his father probably left the area to be in the military. in that the mother somewhere else, you know, what's a chance, the two people walking down in that area would meet, and I'd be related. It was very small so that our figured that out now is exactly right. Now that we know that there is a very high chance that our jane doe will have some dna relatives in the database. We ass doktor Fitzpatrick too or how the dna is analyzed and to explain what dna sequencing entails. What we're doing? It's really interesting that we say this is how we hand If somebody came to us and said just I have enough funds, I'm ok, we would say I seven hundred dollars not exceed twenty seven hundred, but one case that is an administration say, and that just pays our bills. Nobody in our organisation gets paid. So if we come to an agency agency says well, you haven't got some

we wait. We can wave that men say: that's, not gonna, be a problem. If they really are broke and then for an agency that has nothing. We can do it, don't find me fundraising campaign once again it has passed quality check and we know we have something to work with. We won't raise money if the dna row bad and something's wrong the mixture. You know our quality content shows it's just too degraded or too low quantity. We just can't proceed. We won't raise money for that. The mixture is downstream a little bit, and so at that point, we'll put a paypal button up and we'll go from there. That's what we do. We, we have three different level and we try to accommodate work with any can see no matter what, in the reason we say not to exceed, is because pie

lying near the pipeline in the lab. He put the dna and one side and outcomes he answered the other day. You know pipelines that companies have developed to make themselves efficient, but we ve come across some labs that now that are willing to do a little bit outside the pipeline. If it saves money If you have really good dna, it turns out. We don't need to sequence as hard as with mauler amounts are degraded dna. So that means we can reduce the cost, kind of testing that we often hear about in John and Jane doe cases is isotope testing. Doktor Fitzpatrick told us a bit about that. To my background is nuclear physic, so I can speak the language of stable isotopes and I think that the stable isotopes or actually valuable they do.

Really tell you who the person is, but they do tell you caused a range. You know the geography of where the person has been more light in a way food. They were eating as a child when their teeth formed that locks into your normal. The rest of your life that never changes that one party It has never. We model throughout your life bones, get reminded every ten years so that the the isotopes in your you know your femur, give you some handsomely. This person was, can you, during the last the nearest the ribs remodel every two years. The hare grows out. Maybe a centimeter month, so you have a record in body or where you ve been what are you? U drunk the kind of food a whether more vegetarian or whether meat fish. No, that kind of food waste. Taking a shower our party, the isotopes in your hair? So I think

you know valuable and also changes near your hair. You conceive somebody's moving around a lot. You can see that is their hair grows out. So I think that the fascinating area- and I think as more I shall scape- should develop that are more more accurate and sort of more focus to perceive could check your reasons. I think that's very valuable. It won't exactly identified a person, but it does give me some information or where they ve been it, no matter what evidence you have and always helps. You know you take it and you kind of think about it. you try to massage into this. You know see if its consistent, because no matter what you have on a john and Jane doe its whenever you get it, it's some. More than you knew five minutes earlier. You, starting with blank in the case of book,

King girl, that was interesting because she had tried the lot. The isotopes said she had been out to california down into taxes and the pollen said she had been up to pittsburgh area like long alleghanies, because the pollen from the fir trees There were in her kind of fir. Trees are in that buckskin jacket. In that case, you gotta think she could borrowed the jacket on gaza flea market, You know the day before you dont know that, but it something more than you knew five minutes earlier, and you know if it comes about, say: she's basically been in the mid west, then that tells us something Jane doe Case is one that we followed for many months. Getting frequent updates from deputy coroner Brandon Johnson. We spoke with him again just last week to find out where her case stands and what Next steps are for her in the identification process.

The meantime, as we await for the results to return from you and t working with name with an updated list of about thirty ten missing female african americans have from around the timeframe, how they are going to be working with her or intelligence, to compare the dental records of further missing a two hours for those that have the dental records and then is. Are we We wait to return we're going to be working with us for isotope testing also, after everything is returned from EU anti, we'll be into the genealogy with the dna dual pricing Certain issues mentioned. You know your previously with voice sort of felt that it's such a great match the pertain to nothing sooner or from the inglewood area in chicago the mothers,

elderly and there was hope- and maybe we could ever a match on that- I'm hoping that we will be able. Give her some more definitive answers. I hope we will be able to tell her that it's your daughter, I once we hear back for you don t, hoping the maybe there's just some sort of error in the dna with the sweater So who is grundy county, Jane doe? And how did she end up in a ditch in rural illinois who wanted to kill her, Why wasn't she reported missing? Or was she? I was fortunate enough. Obtain the records from the original investigation in nineteen, seventy six and the author. He's in Grundy county did everything they could at the time include retaining samples taking fingerprints and contact. State and federal law enforcement agencies for assistance, but no on new who she was after them, instigation turned up, nothing officials lay for the rest in the local cemetery

where she remained until december of two thousand eight eighteen, when she exude for advanced dna testing. The hope is that once dna tests are completed, that she will finally be identified at the. I am of a murder, Jane doe, was between fifteen and twenty seven years old. She was a black theme. Between five foot, seven in five foot, nine inches tall and waved between one hundred and thirty, and one hundred and fifty pounds authorities of us made that she died approximately twenty four hours before she was found on october. Second, nineteen. Seventy six! She found nude with a plastic bag and sweater around her head. If you visit the vanish, podcast dot com, I voted Pictures of the sweater, as well as what its believe that Jane doe looked like prior to her death asking that you share her picture or share her story, so we can help Jane doe get her name back if you of any information about jane doze, identity or murder. You can contact

de county deputy corner, Brandon Johnson and ate one five, nine for one three. Three five now or email him be johnson at grundy seo dot. Org knowledge will say more about the thing that someone could disappear go unreported Bobby report in this most about like there's someone here somewhere, that would notice if we were gone if we were gone, they would eventually, hopefully quickly. The proper reports, do what a beach other family virtual friends or whoever it may be, but eventually law enforcement. People. Don't have anybody. people in life. Circumstance They just don't have anybody report them miss

time. Someone does recognise that the wrong, sometimes it's too late. It's very hard. law enforcement. When someone walks into a police station called on the phone says, I had a friend I had an uncle. That was me, I last spoke to him. A last saw him over eight years ago, we don't know where he's had. He may have someone who travelled. three of them always keep a pitched address for long periods of time. I'd like to report the mission was a lot of law enforcement agencies will look that pushing go. Do you want us to do within our jurisdiction wall. I don't love, you travel to well, not really are missing, or even They could establish some sort of residents were at that time. They ll, say you know

How do you know the really missing person that they were the bail transition or in keep an address for proper term. How do you know their missing, maybe daughter when I alive, accept this report It is weird to think about that. There is people in the country that just don't have anybody to report them missing or their life circumstance makes it hard for them makes it hard for someone to establish that they are missing at the identified if they can't be kept above ground until identification, they gotta be buried in a place where is dignified and that you know you could get back to you know, because who knows in ten years what the new scientific test is going to be there? they're doing incredible things with isotopes. And pollen and all of these other sciences. In fact, here in our bodies, and you know argument.

That being the new, diego dna micro organisms, so device capua kept above ground while there being identified or investigated, then at least a grave where you could get back to them again reasonably easy. You know, and it's do which just you gotta be thoughtful of it. But it is easy enough to care about someone who doesn't have any. I can be anyone's trial The. The

that brings us to the end of episode. One hundred and sixty one I'd like to thank everyone who worked with us on this episode. If you have a missing loved one that you'd like to have featured on the show, there's a case submission form at the vanished, podcast dot com, if you'd like to contact me, there's a page or discussion group on facebook, I'm on twitter, at the vanish pod and also on instagram. If you enjoy the show subscribe now and leave a five star review on apple podcasts, spotify wandering dot com or wherever you're listening right now, do you want to help support the show? There's a couple of things that you can do one way to help the vanished is by supporting our sponsors. You can find links and promo codes in episode notes another

to support the show is by filling out a short survey at wonder: ea dot com. Slash survey join me next week for another case from illinois, thanks for listening, the

Lou perlman seems like the ultimate american success story. I kid from queen to became a self made, a millionaire and pop culture icon. He created two of the biggest boy bans on the planet and sink and the backs you boys and then squeeze them for every penny, but they were the only ones who was taking advantage of. I I'm Sarah heavy co host of wonder is podcast gamble answers where we unpack the stories of notorious scammers and con artists all over the globe in our recent to part series so many strings attached. We follow loop, romans rise from aerospace, entrepreneur to boy Ben mogul to architect of one of the largest ponzi schemes in history. This is the sinister story behind all those catchy lyrics and choreographed danced moves it's about face

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